Why Bridgerton is Problematic || Colorism, Race Baiting and Implicit Bias
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- Hello Friends!
Today we have a special video for you. Some of the ladies from the Inclusion in costuming panel that we did for CoCoVid this summer came and asked me if we could perhaps record another video for you all to discuss the problematic nature of the show Bridgerton, which has pretty much everyone talking right now, for one reason or another. We would like to talk about colorism, race baiting, and implicit bias in Bridgerton, but also in modern television media today.
If you don’t know what Bridgerton is, its is a show produced by Shonda Rhimes for Netflix and is based off of a book series and it is billed as an inclusively cast period drama set in the late regency era.
Let me be clear, we aren’t here to trash the show. A bunch of people on this panel actually really like the show. What we did want to discuss is why calling this show “inclusive” is problematic. We are not here to tell you that you shouldn't enjoy this show, just that you may want to take a hard look at it as an example of the systematic biases that modern media engenders. This panel is meant to serve similarly to when you tell your friend that they do something that bothers you and they ask you to point it out the next time it happens.
We have a live and topical example here of what is meant by problematic themes and casting in popular media and we thought we could use it to exemplify some of the things that we, as a country, have been discussing in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement this year.
When it comes to topics of race and inclusion, I believe that it is my job, as a compassionate human to make space for People of Color to let their opinions be heard. While I agree with all of their points, I don’t believe that It really matters how I feel about it. My job is to make space and to hear them. I am going to set some ground rules to please be kind, and generous, as you always are, in the comments section.
I’d also like to mention that this video will probably be full of spoilers, so if you are a person who wants to watch the show spoiler free, feel free to come back and join us for this conversation later.
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To Sewstine’s point, I felt it (the mention of Queen Charlotte being black ending racism) was like the equivalent of saying “we’ve had a Black president so racism is solved”
YES THIS!!! it’s why it made me so so angry haha
If you look at the first Fantastic Beasts films, there were only two black women. Madame Picquery, who was president of MACUSA and a light-skinned black woman. The only other "American" black cast member in the film (the rest were foreign dignitaries), as I guess black people didn't live in JK's New York City in the 1920's, was a lower-ranked staff member who spoke in that dumbed-down, "less-educated" dialect that you saw in characters like Uncle Remus.
Strongly agree, my brain was just like "??? Ok, I guess????"
For sure. That's a good way of stating how it came across.
I feel that also in the Hollywood limited series. I was just fed up in the end by the endless "black actress winning an Oscar in the 40's solves all racism". Ugh. It was just to make people feel good about their own biases because "if it could be done 80 years ago, it's gone by now, right?"
It was just weird to me that all of the black women of reproductive age was either mixed or a dark skin background character. Zendaya said it best "I'm Hollywood's acceptable version of a black woman".
this is what i noticed as well
Still, she is cashing in 👍🏻
@@greyLeicester claro né porra ela também não é burra
yes, every primarily visible black character was cast with a biracial actor(even the actress who played Lady Danbury is biracial). I'm finding it hard to find reviews that don't just refer to them being light-skinned, but BIRACIAL.
So
Halley berry won an Oscar just for being nice?
What about lupita nyong?
How can you always find something, no matter how small it is to complain about
All the people with that slave mentality and the people that get mad about everything should really find some help
So glad you're talking about this. I binged the show in one night and while I loved it as a story, the tiny explanation of how racism was "ended" really didn't sit right with me. I felt it would have been better if they went with an AU where racism had never existed at all, than pretend to deal with it, but not really. (That wouldn't solve the casting biases of course, and wouldn't further our conversation around race but maybe we would be talking about it differently now). And there were so many moments that alluded to racism in a way that wasn't enough to be clear that it WAS racism they were talking about and not classism which is a huge part of regency era stories and could easily have been the focus instead.
there is a webcomic i read called widdershins which is set vaguely in the 19th century but in an AU and they take the route of just saying racism never was a thing and honestly it works well, especially because the author has thought through what differences there would therefore be in say indigeneous representation and politics
@@ketrakrelek2347 that sounds awesome, thanks for the recommendation
This is exactly what I THOUGHT the show was trying to go for; that in this universe, racism just wasn't a thing, never has been a thing, nobody cares about it so we can just move on. I was totally fine with it and accepted it as the proposed universe in the first five minutes.
But then they shoved that little part about "Our King's love for our Queen raised us to this status blah blah" and I was like ..?? As if actual racism could be solved that way...???? Much less in a single generation?? Why the writers felt the need to diminish the difficulties of overcoming racism like that instead of just going for a racism-free fantasy world, I would never understand. It's not like that discussion of racism ever came up again, so it was wholly irrelevant to the show.
@@hanblue4413 Exactly, and just how long ago did she marry the king anyways!
Wow one night 😱. The racism didn’t end, you just had to pretend it wasn’t real to enjoy the show 😂. The duke was warned it was fragile but they should just pretend it was an alternative universe.
The reunion we all needed ♥️
🙌
so true
?
You SJW’S are just as dumb as they come.
Please don't call romance trash. We don't use that terminology for any other genre of fiction. It's a term that is rooted in sexism. Romance are stories primarily written by women, for women, about women, and despite making up the largest portion of book sales, it's still not taken seriously. Please don't add to that. Thank you for your other points. They were well put.
You’re super right and honestly I didn’t even think of the sexism of calling a female dominated genre trash (and in retrospect it’s obvious). Thanks for pointing this out - gonna do better next time!
I can be trash For romance but romance is never trash. It's the dream of adventure, overcoming obstacles, and happiness that I long for as a woman. Not that I would want my real life to be exactly like the books I read.
Yes! I had this exact thought!
I don't like the genre but I really try not to disparage it.
Good points.
When did they say it, i almost finished the vid but probably missed it
I saw an Asian female in the show. Believe me, I was looking really hard at the background actors.
This is the BIGGEST mood
I'm pretty sure there was more than one, too.
Same thats all I was doing is paying attention to all extras
@Zayalla Fantasy I'm hoping they cast Mr Bagwell as Asian
@@katielumley4150 well if they can cast the unwed mother as a black woman. They can cast the scholar as an Asian. Nothing wrong with being smart.
Yeah that part where they say “The king marrying a coloured woman solved racism” was a bit 🧐 Really Bridgerton?
Though I was only half-watching the show while I exercised, it definitely hit a discordant note. It was a totally unnecessary piece of “”world building”” that did more to bring me out of the world than immerse me further, not least because it’s lowkey insulting in a myriad of ways
Lady Danburry never implied the marriage 'ended' racism though and i really don't understand why everyone is stating that, she was merely implying that it was the first step in the right direction for them. i'd watch that scène again if i were you
@@krullewietje My darling, we’re taking Lady Danbury’s words in the context of the present day world of Bridgerton where POC are accepted in the high class ranks without a murmur.
When we say “ended racism” we don’t mean that ontologically, “racism ceased to exist the moment the king and queen’s lips touched”. It’s more of a gentle scoff at the idea that a previously racially stratified society with such a rigid class structure would suddenly turn on a dime and accept a whole group of people that were a mere ten years? Thirty years ago? treated as aliens (at the very best), simply because their king married one.
If you would like to know what might have prompted that gentle scoff, then look no further than the history of colonisation. How many years has it been since most countries won their independence from their colonisers? 70 years? (Malaysia), 80 years? (Vietnam) 300 years? (America.) Yet the effects of racism are still prevalent and widely felt by almost any person of colour. It’s been literal centuries for some countries, and yet with racism it feels like a two steps forward, two steps back, kind of game. (It simply feels that way a lot of the time, I’m not saying that a lot of society’s havent come really far, but sometimes it’s hard to be optimistic when all your childhood memories consist of having various slurs throw at you and everyone who looks like you, and then you watch the news and people are marching the streets holding symbols of oppression, or graffitiing them on places of worship. I know sometimes it really just be that way, but it gets depressing. It just gets depressing after a while.)
The idea that one king marrying a POC would reverse the effects of racism in society in the span of a mere thirty years isn’t bad. But it does prompt a bit of a “hah, yeah wishful thinking” sort of attitude from everyone who’s been living in our advanced modern society and yet experienced racism their entire lives.
Sorry, I wrote a lot but I don’t know if I was able to communicate what I’m trying to say effectively. Let me know if you have any further questions.
my problem with all this is the fact that the regency period in ENGLAND, is not our story or our history, like I also like Jane Austen books and I'll watch regency movies, but I know that is not my culture and I don't need to see myself in that culture because it's not mine. My issue is that we continue to get media that promote European culture as if it were the benchmark. There are so many different cultures, many NOT European, that make up America. Why is it that every time they make a movie or show set in the past it happens to be in England or Europe? Why must poc have to see ourselves within the context of white Europe? like putting poc in white histories isn't inclusive, it just promotes that idea that white (Europe)inclusive or progressive when it's still Eurocentrism
Well said I agree completely. Another thing that makes me roll my eyes is these remakes with women or POC; why can't we get new stories? Why do we have to retell ones that have already been told? Are there no new stories to be told? I doubt that very much.
I agree but some PoC seem to want to do this - i am bit baffled by it tbh but it's not my call. There was a Bollywood version - Bride and Prejudice that did well. But it was remade in a modern Indian setting..not a regency era.
Fuck yes! I've been saying this all along. Can we please have tv series about African history, South American history, aboriginal history, Caribbean history and Asian history? Preferably that is not about colonialism or slavery but about culture!
Black writers need to write great original stories. If they are interesting all people will watch.
There's been an increase in diverse books recently so I expect this will happen, but this does to some extent take out of account the financial motivations for making certain pieces. Period dramas in England are reliably successful, and as a genre have fans, so are guaranteed to bring in money. The stories most famous in the West that people want remade and have an audience already as the story themselves are Western ones. People in North America aren't particularly invested in a drama about pre-colonial First Nations or other settings like that. I think absolutely with more exposure the audiences would come, like how Chinese period dramas are pretty successful, or historical Japanese karate movies do well. Some recent YA books I've enjoyed are Children of Blood and Bone (fantasy ancient Nigeria) and Hunted by the Sky (medieval India).
Till this day, Rodgers and hammerstines Cinderella with brandy, is the best diverse fantasy world. Why can't we get it right today??
Preach!
@@mindoablues I would recommend you watch it for yourself before you let these comments dissuade you from doing so.
@@mindoablues they promoted it as historical fiction instead of fantasy romance. The reason is clearly political.
Facts!
THIS! This is what I expected of the show until they really starting hitting us with the “progress” narrative two separate worlds stuff. It’s fake, we don’t need to explain people’s ancestry, let’s just look at these pretty people dancing together. Yes!
Why do we have to get POC stories STILL trough european culture's Lens? Can't we get their stories as they were,truly, in their culture, in their land? Do we have to invent alternate fantasy realities where they are intertwined with "white stories" to make people interested in engaging with them? I'm quite bored with rehashing the same periods and places, I want to see african tribes political wars, I want to see love stories during Aztec or Mayan empire... We are barely taught anything about African, South Americano,Australia continent before colonialism, not their history, nor their culture,religion, clothing - as long as the europocentrism in teaching persists, our horizons will remain narrow. I've had 4 semesters of history during college and STILL had to purposefully educate myself to learn a bit about half of the world's heritage, as if it was an afterthought to the only one that mattered, that of white central/western europeans...
Very nice thought! I also think there’s so much rich history in the world that could be turned into fantasy time period shows, this felt more like trying to earn brownie points by adding diversity rather than something genuine
This is interesting that people think that the European cultural lens is only include white people this is so interesting to me even in those times Black people were still around I mean haven’t you heard of the black Medici he was the second honorary ruler of Florence Italy but he was a black man there are Black people littered throughout different cultures of history look at all the black samurai he was brought over by the Portuguese I mean Black people have been usually in a lot of cultures believe it or not during the renaissance era black presence was very prevalent in Europe
Oh yes, that would be epic! There was Apocalypto. It was focused on the end of their civilization and was pretty violent, so maybe not the best portrayal
@@arielslack7015 at that time, blacks in Europe would be less than 5%
That’s why Bollywood makes indian period movies and dramas with historical accuracy instead. I think black ppl should also do the same, create their own drama pieces on African dynasties.
Thank you for hosting and sharing this discussion. Bridgerton was such a disappointment on so many levels. One thing that I don't think enough people are talking about is the female on male sexual assault. It was glossed over in the show and I think a lot of people are happy enough to overlook it.. which is hugely problematic. It blurrs the lines of consent. Even if the book was worse than the show, it still needs to be looked at just as critically as the race issues and the underwear/costuming problems.
You're totally correct re the rape not being addressed in the aftermath of this show but I do want to encourage everyone reading this comment to please focus on the issues of race in these particular comments, or to discuss the rape from the point of view of race. Restating here that I am also VERY UPSET about the rape (and I agree that it needs to be addressed more in regards to this show and the book series) but the idea of this video and this discussion is to focus on the racial issues, because any discussion of racial issues are often derailed by other topics as a way to avoid the racial issues. Thank you!
@@NamiSparrow I could not disagree with your comment more. During the Women's Suffrage movement white women told black women to "wait your turn" in a similar manner. During the AIDS crisis, trans men and women were told to "wait your turn" as well. This is a thing that keeps happening in history and it's very problematic. I understand that your intentions are good, but I cannot ignore the danger in your comment. We CAN address more than one topic at a time without getting "derailed". I don't think C Moor needed to be reprimanded for their comment, and I don't think it's appropriate to imply that other people should ignore them.
I mean no disrespect, but I was very upset by this and felt I needed to speak up.
@@ashleejones1690 nekonami didn't say that the conversation shouldn't happen or that it wasn't important. She said it SHOULD happen. It should happen RIGHT NOW. Just not in THIS particular thread. That is not the same thing as wait your turn. And she is absolutely correct that trying to pivot the topic is a common tactic used intentionally or accidentally to avoid discussing race. Maybe you could make your own video discussing the problematic issues regarding assault in the show and use that as a way to spark discussion.
Yeah I wonder why it was included in the show if it wasn’t going to be dealt with in a reasonable way.
The rape scene was SO awful. My whole body clenched up. And a white woman raping a white man to force a pregnancy is FUCKED UP. The second Daphne learned what cum was she became the villain.
yall need to know that LIGHTSKIN doesn't equal BIRACIAL...
Love that response to "why does everything have to be about race?" - "Why does everything have to be so stereotyped?"
I've noticed lately, that in Netflix shows characters are often portrayed by stereotypes (Emily in Paris first comes to my mind). Though I feel like the earlier shows used to be better about such issues and actually tried to make difference (for example Sense8). But they didn't end up making as much money as they wanted with these shows and so they ended up with an "easier" approach. So now the storytelling got way worse and more stereotypical and more consumer-friendly.
@@user-ok4xb1rd9f loads of French people were really fed up with this show!
@@redstar7292 Yeah, I watched lots of reactions to the show. It's rated negative mostly because it only focuses on French (but also American) stereotypes. Which I guess is similar to harmful stereotypes about different races. And actually shows bad writing skills.
Also, many of these women are under the age of 40 and don't realize that there have been films before with diversity in several different genres in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. I think it would have helped to have an older person on the show. These ladies haven't done any research before the 2000s.
I'm so glad this was deeply explained on many different levels of their colorism but also the impliciting bias & how they had the different people of color's skintones no matter as much in the importance of the roles of the show. Because some people just see it as one way like "oh there's not enough people poc black people" when POC means ALL POC as well of All backgrounds. I really appreciate how you guys throughly went into discussion on what really is wrong with it & what needs to be changed even know it's a very likable show. Thank you so much for having breakdown❤
Also, many of these women are under the age of 40 and don't realize that there have been films before with diversity in several different genres in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. I think it would have helped to have an older person on the show. These ladies haven't done any research before the 2000s.
My black ass was surely looking around for a single Asian character. I think I caught one lady in the background with no lines.
It would have been lovely for the Featheringtons to have been Asian. I had a whole conversation with my sister about casting. If they continue the series since its based on a Book Series of the Bridgeton family I hope the women or men that the siblings choose will be people who are BIPOC.
There was no Latino character either, no aboriginal, no Native American, did that bother you too or... just asking.
@@sandrayeo8347 Latino is NOT a race. No such thing as latino. There are black, white and Asian latinos, as well as mixed latinos. Indian Asian is not a race either. Just an admixture.
@@tracyi9152 yay, how about you tell that to the US census bureau ? They have a « Hispanic or Latino » box for people the thick.
BTW, I agree, Asian is not a race either. I visited India and people from Kerala don’t look even remotely like Japanese. So are we going to drop those generic terms and go with nationalities or hyper hyphenated identities from now on ? That should be fun... oh, I don’t see any Black-Colombian-american as a lead, I don’t feel represented 🤦🏾♀️
Hummm and let’s not forget sexual orientation.
No Jamaican-blasian-LGBT character ? I’m out 🤦🏾♀️
@@sandrayeo8347 i think she meant that movies tend to act minority means = black african meanwhile there are minorities who are way less in population and suffer from racism even till this day and never ever displayed in shows. Just an example: romani gypsies they are indian descendant but always played by white folks in shows.
Love this but I just wanna comment on the use of "eurocentric features." I think thats a harmful term, I've seen so many black people even darker skinned black people from Africa have to deal with the claims that they have eurocentric features when that simply isn't true. I think a better way to word that is that some poc have features that best fit within the European standard of beauty which has since become the global beauty standard like smaller noses, fuller lips, etc.
Thank you! Africa is a whole continent.
I always thought when ppl say "euro-centric features" they mean "eurocentric standards of beauty" but that might just be me
@Gabriel Logan what's the one?
@@emilyporter1186 eurocentric features....define each word...it is not the same as eurocentric standard of beauty
You are correct. Those are not eurocentric features- many black people look like that, myself and kids included. My son has a tiny,straight nose with the slightest of upward turn at the tip. Actors and actresses pay for a nose like his, and we are all black. I'm tired of everybody because no one gets these things right. This is 2021- I'm so sick that all of this is even a discussion.
Can we stop saying "it's just a romance. Stop thinking too deep, it doesn't mean anything. Chill"?! When it comes to stories, there are elements that reaches out to people. Any story has the power to influence real life perspectives and judgements.
Honestly, I thought this show was a breath of fresh air. I was happy to see people of color being seen as a person first, rather than as a skin color. Race isn't everything. Also, I think these ladies are placing too much expectation on the show to be "preachy". The creator's never claimed that the show is about racial or social justice, they simply wanted to include more people of color, people of some African origin, as main characters. We aren't watching the show to be preached at, and preaching never changed anyone but empathy does! You don't build empathy by being preachy!
@@tdr.220 A show can make a point with casting or a line to make it have meaning without it being preachy. For example, in some adaptations about Mansfields Park, they talk about slavery because the family has a plantation. It was added as real weight to the story and dynamics but it didn’t bash a person on the head with it. If Bridgeton talked about black people just entering aristocracy because the Queen is biracial, that is a plot point or part of the story to be expanded. Especially since it effects the lead male. The pressure he carries. I think an argument they were discussing is how race isn’t everything so why not add more speaking roles for poc? Since they are people first there should be more East Asians with actual speaking parts. If Bridgeton just aimed to include black actors, good points were made about deeper skin tones, phenotypes and colorism. Colorism has hit many races today. Since historical context where POC have been not represented at all or represented with 2d negative caricatures has caused real life ramifications. They do mention that these critiques can be used in other projects. Since the series is made of 8 books, hopefully they can consider some critiques.
Story is incredibly powerful because it impacts us on a subconscious level. As a writer, I understand the impact of storytelling and I love this critique. It’s helping me become a better writer. So I’m grateful for this. I think these ladies are doing this for the people who want to learn, not bashing or being hateful.
“Be especially critical of the media you like.” Such a great takeaway! Thanks all for this vid!
Thank you so much for this great conversation!
@@tracyi9152 Wow, a voice of sanity!
The actress who plays the queen is of mixed ancestry. A look into the bio of the cast would reveal that nearly all of the lead " black actors" including Lady Danbury are biracial. I do agree that there is blatant colorism.
I disagree about the colorism. People in Hollywood know each other or are related so they network with each other. You see colorism they see networking family connections.
No she’s just black and white. It’s on her wiki page. Black peoples can have monolids.
@@suhana8516 Yes you are correct. I will adjust my comment.
Thank you so much for this conversation! I firstly thought the show was set in a fantasy world where the abysmal treatment of BIPOC just didn't exist at all, so the lines Lady Danbury (?) said to Simon basically about racism no longer being a thing because of the king falling in love with a black woman just sprouted 431845 questions in my head!
And the theme of race was never mentioned again?
What?
Questionable story telling right there.
I do think they initially truly wished for a fairly portrayed diverse show when they started out, but decisively got lost along the way. Like you all said, they should do better next time :) Thanks again, y'all are wonderful!
So Lady Danbury time travelled into the 20thC, heard the modern comment about Queen Charlotte being black which is based on a very flawed USA theory, travelled back to the early 1800s and then passed on a lie.
Won't bother watching as it is obviously fake from the start (and yes, I have seen the images where they habitually dress half baked - you ALWAYS wear a chemise under a corset).
I get what you all are saying, as a black person myself. First of all, not having a darker skinned person on this panel to discuss darker skin colorism is an issue in and of itself. Second, Lady Danbury has a higher status in society than any of the other women in the world of Bridgerton aside from the Queen.There was a scene in which Lady Danbury instructed the queen to do some thing. I just find it so disappointing that this is the first Drama about the Regency era with a pretty high level of diversity and all we can do is pick it apart. I also want to note, if you look in the background scenes of the balls and the ladies being presented to the queen there are always darker skinned characters. There are scenes at the Gentleman’s social club where darker skinned noble gentlemen are playing a gambling game just like the other noblemen, implying they are of the same ilk.
Agree. It is frustrating to me that the first time a historical show even tries to have diversity in its cast all we can do is say how it's not enough.
Didn't hear this sort of talk about gentleman jack but it could certainly still apply.
This is a point I wanted to make, as well. The panel seemed disappointed that there were POC as "minor background" characters, but that was something I found refreshing. The story requires background characters, and within the story line, they would be people of very high standing in society. So the fact that they are a mix of races would seem to be a positive, not a negative. Certainly it would not have been better for all the background characters to be white! What was unfortunate is that the only Asian cast members that I saw were background characters.
@@judithjackson753 They literally said they appreciate the show and it’s a good first step but more needs to be done. And that they appreciated the background characters being poc and doing normal things like selling papers.
I don’t know why pointing out what must be made better is “picking something apart” why should we settle for just the first step when we can ask people to expand on it
I enjoyed the show, it wasn’t realistic from any story about race. The darker skinned actors were background only. There were there only to say here are some other people. Perhaps they should have just said it’s an alternative universe were racism didn’t occur. Could have included some Asians though😁
Agree! We have to start somewhere to break glass ceilings. I was so happy to watch a show of the past with people that represent me and not just all white casting. Same goes for Hamilton.
If you say something is color blind casting and then have to “make a reason” for people of color to be in the story- you’ve completely negated your argument. Making the show diverse and just letting it BE diverse without having to explain it away, that is what is going to help change our society for the better!
If they treated it as they treat many Shakespearean plays where no one would blink an eye at, say, Lenny Henry playing King Lear then the claim would work. They were cast because they are a top notch actor/actress but to only allow Lenny Henry (first name to come to mind) as Othello would imply he can only play a role traditionally associated with actors with darker skin (Spanish African heritage).
Yes ... this is the world and that’s it ... and keep doing it ...
The comment from Simon's dad about how the dukedom will only remain in their family as long as they're extraordinary was a really interesting beat to see in Bridgerton for me, because I remember seeing the same emotional beat of a dark-skinned black father telling his lighter-skinned child the same thing in another Shonda Rhimes show, Scandal. "Twice as hard for half as much." The emotional beat hit a lot harder there, it felt more believable. Even though Eli Pope was also a villainous character, the nature of the modern setting of Scandal made the scene work there in a way I felt it didn't in Bridgerton.
YES. I am so glad someone talked about the lack of Asians. This literally happens in almost every show that claims to be super "inclusive". Why don't Asians ever count?
Aye! Why weren't Russians, Polynesians and Cantonese people weren't included!
Ironically, Asians, especially from what was/is India, were more common than you think. A girl in my class at school had ancestors who came to England in the early 1700s and stayed, marrying partners from India who in turn moved to England and stayed throughout the centuries. Until her parents emigrated to New Zealand in the 1970s. But we know that there was a considerable population of Africans in London, (as well as Indians, Chinese, and probably Arabs as well) and probably every other port as well, going back centuries from archaeological evidence.
But those in the landed gentry, for want of a better description, didn't usually marry into the working class so the odds on any Africans being married into the titled aristocracy are very very small. And it has nothing to do with skin colour, although tanned skin in anyone was considered bad as it hinted at a life spent outdoors in the sun, meaning you were outdoors working for a living. It wasn't racist, it was a social class discrimination instead.
Not going to watch the show, seems to be another Hollywood series which is based on lies, lies, and more lies (like The Crown, anything which might be accurate was a mistake) to fit a USA point of view. There were people from all around the world in London and other large cities but they were mainly WORKING CLASS, with maybe some who made it to LOWER middle class by don't of very hard work and good luck. The titled and landed gentry married within a surprisingly small group (there's a reason women married wealthy merchants, and not necessarily because they needed money but because they needed a husband and money would often compensate for a lack of class).
Plus don't forget, in the UK the African/Carribbean population is only around 3-4%, something this series seems to conveniently ignore. It was even less 300 years ago. Forget the % of Asians but that is far higher, and the odds on someone returning from India with an Indian wife were probably considerably higher than someone having an African wife.
Honestly I thought the queen was Asian at first, and the lady next to her in the first episode was Asian so it took me a while to realize there actually were very few Asians in the series.
South Asians are the largest racial minority nowadays in Britain, and the show is about Britain. I am always amazed at these shows casting almost only black people among minorities. Looks like tokenism. Cause black people are most visibly different from whites, so it is easier to be "look how diverse we are, give us money"
@@KateeAngel Yes!! That's exactly how it feels.
I wish there was more Asian representation in Hollywood. Because this white girl loves watching Japanese, Korean, and Chinese dramas. The thing I always say is there is one race (human) and different cultures. And not excepting that there are differences in the cultures, that is where the name calling, and the "race" ism starts. The "my culture is better" crap. It gets me mad. I love history, and learning about someone else culture is so much fun. Whether the costumes or the people let me expand my mind. There is a song I love from the 1990s TV show of the Little Mermaid its called 'In Harmony' (its on Spotify) and it best expresses my feelings. The Human race is a RAINBOW and I want to see it all. Love to All !!
Race is absolutely a construct of humanity, but it's important to remember that since humans have essentially "created" the distinction of race, that it does unfortunately exist now. That being said, your sentiments about one human race are A+ correct. I would, however, request that you don't refer to clothing from other cultures as "costumes", since they are simply clothing. That's just a little semantic distinction, but it's very important - after all, you don't call jeans a costume, so why should a kimono be referred to as a costume, you know? :)
yes but i hope there is no forced "representation" or woke stuff forced into stuff the way i've seen in recent american media desperately trying to be "correct". i love asian dramas too (i'm asian), but i also feel like they will get too westernized and unrelatable if they start trying to appeal to western audience (lots more sex and indecency, portraying family setups differently, or just being "woke"). so many of the recent critique of "problematic" media has been based on why every single race or culture or whatever wasn't portrayed when really the need existed far less often. there are cultural differences and i don't want modern american values to replace other cultures etc. in real life or in media.
@@NamiSparrow "Costume" just means a specific fashion of a country and/or historical period. Webster's Dictionary. That is how I am using the word. Not the Halloween costumes. :) which are crap to begin with... 😅. I do see jeans as a Costume in the definition of the word. 😀
@@patronusstag I wouldn't like a forced representation either. I really dislike westernization of everything. It gets me mad. I like seeing and hearing of different cultures. It's boring to just hear and see one culture. I wish to travel and see ot all, but right now all I have are books and pictures of each one... not enough books... I need more.
@@denisee156 it’s important to understand the difference between what a words definition is and what it means colloquially. In normal speech costume DOES mean “Halloween costume” and thus isn’t a good word to use to describe historical clothing (especially with the US’s history of creating racist costumes for Halloween).
Really appreciated this - helped to clarify a lot of issues I had with the show. Thank you for going into what this was/what it should have been/what we need from future productions.
Also, many of these women are under the age of 40 and don't realize that there have been films before with diversity in several different genres in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. I think it would have helped to have an older person on the show. These ladies haven't done any research before the 2000s.
I wanted to add that another implicit bias was making Simon and not Daphne the black member of the couple. Simon is very sexual and that is a common stereotype about black men, whereas Daphne's innocence (and ignorance) doesn't fit with implicit biases surrounding black women.
Maybe it just me but did you notice how when in the sex scenes Simon was far back from her as if to imply he was well endowed kinda a stereo type.
This may work in 100 years but we haven’t come far enough as a society
@Zsuzsanna Varga I have an opinion like everyone else.We are all over reading into every detail of this series. This whole feed has different ideas. I haven't called anyone crazy.Even if you don't agree please don't call me crazy even in joking
Zsuzsanna Varga there will always be endless criticism on film. That’s not a good point. The issue is how certain things are being portrayed on a regular basis. It informs people’s beliefs and interactions with real life counter parts.i think most people just want balanced promotion. Black doesn’t always have to be dysfunctional and tragic.
@Zsuzsanna Varga thank you for your apology. You are totally right I am over thinking this. I watched the series several times and enjoyed it. Then after I watched this video and seeing the comments I started noticing things I didn't notice before Lol
I believe simon’s aunty is actually a really important role and we do get to see a lot about her. This is the first season and we may get to see more from her. It’s about the children and younger characters not the older ones
Thank you for saying this. These people didn't read the book, so how can they understand the importance of the Lady Danbury casting
I didn't read the books and definitely saw her as an important character. She was a powerful woman that had influenced so many people in the story.
I have read the books. I love the Lady Danbury character and she does show up throughout the entire series. But she is a kind of "fairy godmother" who does nothing besides put a bunch of effort to helping the younger characters find love. Being played by the only dark skinned woman cast in the show I felt really played into the mammy stereotype--a desexualized black woman who has no other purpose or motivation in a story besides helping the white people around her. It is great that this season she's invested in helping Simon. But depending on how the rest of the Bridgerton' love interests are cast, she could very well spend her time helping white characters find love - which is the classic mammy stereotype. This isn't to down the actor playing her. I thought she was wonderful! But for her to be one of a smattering of PoC (and the ONLY dark skinned black woman) in the show speaks to the limited vision Bridgerton had for black women.
You said it yourself-- the show isn't about the older people. So, even as great a character as she is, she's not all that central. Meaning at the end of the day, there are no CENTRAL dark-skinned characters, particularly that aren't evil. There are plenty of central white ones tho. And a few light skinned blacks. That's the point. Besides, she is one of the 2 dark skinned black characters that are even remotely important in the show. I'm tired of people pointing to the one or 2 tokens and expecting us to be satisfied with that.
@@wildcatste fair point. I didn't think of her that way.
I see why you and many others think that way
I still really like Lady Danbury
Considering how all the book characters are presumably white, although not specific stated, perhaps the showrunners could have given the casting more thought
Or maybe the safest thing would have been not to introduce any POC at all that are not "central characters"
Please do more of these panels! I love every single one you guys do and I feel like I always leave with lots to think about and new resources and wonderful new people to support! Thank you for being the wonderful, open people you are!
I was shocked by a moment at the Featheringtons' when Marina is being "examined" by a potential suitor and he makes her show her teeth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it immediately reminded me of descriptions of slave auctions... why was that in there??? NO other female character was treated that way. Penelope and Eloise talk about women being "vases" but the treatment of Marina was not treating her as a piece of artwork "a vase" but rather as like... an animal...
I got the impression she was being treated as a brood mare by the “gentleman” in question. Looking at horses teeth is a thing. But also bad teeth would have been expensive. I heard women would have their teeth removed to save their husbands the expense of bad teeth. Maybe that’s the why?
It was a thing in European society to look at an eligible woman's teeth as a measure of health. "She has good teeth" is a line I've seen in original texts a lot. It is a very unfortunate choice to have it only applied to a character of colour though...
That scene creeped me out too.
@@annaapple7452 this is helpful for context, thanks! Still not thrilled it happened to the only black eligible woman and there was no passing mention of good teeth anywhere else in the series, but at least there’s historical precedent outside of my US history flashback.
@@kitkat1995032 Continuing the women as a horse theme, Nigel compared Daphne to a horse as well when he told Simon that when he buys a horse, he doesn't ask for the horse's thoughts/opinion (or something like that).
I believe your focus was on “Hollywood” “amaricanized” media ... so is one of the possible solutions to have more internationally produced media available to us in North America??
This is a very good point! Generally, we should all strive to consume media from not Hollywood as it would inform our ideas of other cultures as well - but lets be real, those media also have their own issues and implicit bias and racial problems that would be a whole other topic to unpack! Its definitely a good idea though!!! :D
It's actually quite sad when even Hollywood has a bigger percentage of minorities portrayed in media than your own country's media.
As a European used to watching subtitled foreign films in cinemas and on tv, I do believe people from the US should do that more. At least I've heard it isn't that common practice to watch foreign films/shows unless they're dubbed.
@@lucyapanda6499 I wish there were more opportunities to do exactly this! With streaming services, there is a lot more access to foreign films, but if I hadn't gotten out of the country, I honestly wouldn't have known what I was missing when it come to the cinema.
When I studied in Spain, my friends invited me to go see foreign films presented on a regular basis. Even with the subtitles in my second language, I loved it. There were incredible ones from Denmark, Croatia, and English-speaking countries as well. I saw an Irish film presented in Spain (in English) before I ever saw a single Irish film presented in America...even when they don't need subtitles.
I live in a mid-size city, and it wasn't until an art museum put in a movie theater that SOME foreign films started coming to town a couple years ago. It's sad. And makes me miss the wonderful friends who were super into this.
There are a lot of international produced media available online. The streaming sites have Asian shows and movies. Viki is an online site which produces and airs Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, and Chinese movies and shows. I highly recommend. I live in the US but prefer Asian produced shows. You can even find fun Korean or Chinese dramas on Netflix. I highly recommend The Untamed which you can find on Viki or Netflix. This has opened up new shows, entertainment, media, and literature for me. Broadens the horizon.
Also Marina is Black and has a storyline, but she's pregnant and not married in 1813. That was a HUGE thing. She would have been disgraced. Sent to the country. No "good man" would have married her. So the fact that they gave her a story line which was shocking also says that it was okay for a black woman to be ruined and have sex outside of marriage but that would NOT happen to a white woman.
I really enjoyed that this was not a rant (not that I would have ever expected any shaming on this channel, people here are just way to lovely) but that you guys explained the problems very well so that future productions can have a chance to make things better! Very good video!
A friend recommended the show to me knowing I'm a fan of the historical fiction genre. I had no idea what to expect going in, so imagine my surprise to discover it was based on the series I had read and fallen in love with 10 years ago. And as a woman of color I was besides myself to see me represented in my beloved genre on the TV screen. I have been floating on a cloud because even though they didn't get all the stories right, and even though the costume were not historically accurate, and even though I 100% agree with everything your panel brought up about not doing enough, I am still in love with the series. I really hope the writers and producers take notes, and do better next season. I pray that there is a next season. Because for the first time I felt seen and acknowledged in a way that only other black and brown re-enactors can understand. We need this, and we are thirsty for it. Thank you all so much for opening this conversation. May it continue, and influence future efforts...
Perfectly stated! I am not done with the season but I actually really enjoy it. I have read most of the series as well, years and years ago starting with The Duke and I. Representation is so very important and there is nothing wrong with imagining a world without racism and even if they did say hey the Queen and King fell in love and now we coexist I am cool with that. Far better than reality that seems to constantly try and gloss over our current climate. I am hopeful for a season 2 and like all shows there are things to improve on.
Sooo... is the story historically accurate then?
@@evilblackcat6357 The books or the show? It was a romance novel historical fiction set in the regency period originally. The show seems to be taking things from both the book as well as current times like a loose adaptation. The book itself id say might be more historically accurate but at the same time I am not a historian so its hard to say.
@@chavons8537 Ah, so it's likely nonsense. Thanks.
@@evilblackcat6357 I think of it as just that fiction. Like the romance novels women like to read just kinda gets you out of stress of everyday life and puts you in a made up world.
This was a wonderful panel and discussion. Thank you all for taking the time to address these issues. I have to admit I must have missed the promotion and promises of this series as being specifically racially integrated, so to me the series seemed innovative and refreshing. I really enjoyed it. But I couldn't agree more with the panelists who mentioned that the couple of lines about race seemed thrown into the script and didn't work. And it was a real missed opportunity to not include any Asian or Hispanic actors. Hopefully that will change in season 2. And is it wrong of me to hope that in season 2 there will be chemises worn under the corsets??? Seriously, I do hope that casting directors and showrunners watch this sort of video and take these messages to heart.
I feel validated. The colorism was sickening
I saw a race blind production of Peter Pan in the late 80s. It took about five minutes to forget that Wendy was Black and had an Island accent. The latest, race blind version of David Copperfield took about two. I forgot that The Duke was Black about thirty seconds after he appeared on screen.
And then they had to go ruin it with their big reveal. For the rest of the series, I couldn't see any of the aristocrats who were played by POC without thinking "that's completely unbelievable".
And it is. George III could no more have married a woman of color in 1761, when England was still actively involved in the slave trade, than his doing so would have instantly granted equality. Hell, Edward VIII couldn't even marry a divorcee 175 years later.
That irritation aside, imagining that racism just evaporated belittles the accomplishments of those who spent their lives and blood trying to end it.
Yeah!! That's what I'm always saying! It's like Gaslighting the next generations! Many people learn history from movies (bad educational system... Duh!) so this is detrimental to historical figures like M.L. King and N. Mandela. And in some groups that has a poor education, it's going to do more damage than good. I know it's a "fantasy" but still bruh... Specially making stereotypes more established
Its often implied and extrapolated that Queen Charlotte was some degree of black. It probably was true, very little if any but probably true. that being said they cant really present the situation as contemporarily accepted that way with no concrete evidence beyond her distant relatives and some contemporary sources saying her nose was "too wide and lips too broad" let alone that her marriage just evaporated racism at the time. I thought it was fun and an interesting take that they cast her as black, and light skined at that since she probably was in history but I hated that they tried to justify it. just ruined it for me. I dont need you to justify why you wanted to be diverse, just do it properly and leave it at that.
Also, as noted by professor Tolkien in the preface of the fellowship of the ring (that no one ever reads). One of his (many) objectives (be they conscious or unconscious) in writing the book was to restore to England the creation myths and legends that were lost through the various invasions and conquests that basically erased previous cultural artifacts. Specifically he tried to reimagine a pre Christian Stonehenge era creation myth. Think age of heroes legends (Azor-Ahaï et.al.) in game of thrones. Gender wise professor Tolkien is very much a XIXth c upper class gentleman for whom war and conquest, honour and all that is most exclusively the realm of men. When it comes to the movies (fellowship, towers and king) they explicitly stated that the point was to put the words on film. Words written in order to tell a story that could predate Lindisfarne even being built by thousands of years. Regarding ethnicity and phenotype (we are all the same race of homo sapiens) in the text and given the above mentioned context and objectives the character descriptions and their representation on screen make perfect sense. Professor Tolkien was a man of his time and society and by such measures may he be judged. The UK has over 3000 years of history, a big bit of which is undocumented and or lost to war, conquest or revolution. Lotr is British history fanfiction no need to pick peas from the manure. There are a great many other things that are criticable in lotr without creating petulant non issues or compromising ones intellectual honesty. I look forward to a similar work with an afrocentric cultural context. Oh wait...
And that is the crux of the issue. Why blakify work created by and for a Caucasian context? Would Idris Elba be cast as Eric the red in an Icelandic Saga?.... The African continent and its diaspora at large have a rich literary "catalogue" that predates colonisation, slavery and oral story telling as old as the Bantu expansion. Repackaging Caucasian culture and slapping a sticker on it that reads "now with 20% more blackness" is in my opinion small, pandering, insulting, disrespectful, ignorant, venal and straight up stupid.
I agree. We need to create our own content.
I thought this too. I saw recent controversy around casting a black woman as Anne Boleyn, and my first thought was, why are we telling the story of Anne Boleyn again???? Tell the story of an African queen maybe. I’m sure there’s plenty of drama to be mined from history worldwide. Find other stories to tell.
A verbose and pedantic way of saying I don’t like black people in white/European fiction. If studios are only going keep remaking the same 3 centuries of European history/folklore while trying save face as antiracist organizations, what do you expect? Have the same energy for black/African creators when we are trying to get our projects off the ground and you won’t have to worry about anyone “blackifying” your precious Tolkien and fairy tales.
@@starsinger5935 thats a shit way of saying you dont think all white fiction should stay all white cus you dont like it being european when it should be.
@@Misty-js4vv we already are doing that. There are plenty of indie and mainstream examples I can give.
I haven't watched Bridgerton yet, but the lack of South Asian representation is especially problematic considering the long history of the British Empire on the Indian sub continent... 👀
So very very very true.
Exactly. Watching the series it feels like the whole Indian connection is just dismissed, silenced. It makes the whole inclusion story seem less sincere.
Really feel this. There might have been 3 South Asians tops in the background with large crowds, other than that the only person that comes close was the wife of the artist that Benedict was friends with.
During the regency era Britain had just lost its American colonies and was only starting to make headway in South Asia..most of the whites were over there dying of malaria..but this show is not in anyway historical accurate. There's glitter on the gowns for a start! ! Bit of a clue..
@@redstar7292 no one said it had to be historically accurate. But it's historically inspired. We're talking about racial diversity here. If you're going to introduce black people in the nobility, which wasn't a thing at the time, why forget other ethnicities, especially considering the historic ties between areas?
Also the East India Company had been a thing for centuries at that time. It was founded in 1600.
Firstly, I loved this discussion and I want to continue seeing these in many communities, including costube. I appreciate having so many perspectives on this issue!
Going off the colourism discussion: I think for a piece of media to do colourblind casting or otherwise broadly diverse casting it doesn't stop at diversity. As a writer, I believe that what needs to be considered is what kinds of roles you're casting people of colour in so that you aren't accidentally stereotyping (due to implicit bias or otherwise) or casting characters in roles that have negative implications.
I don't think actors can never be cast in stereotypical roles, but it really is shocking how many times I watch a movie and the villain is black and they are one of the only characters in the movie who are POC. Disclaimer, I'm not a POC, but even I notice how bad it is and a for a show like Bridgerton who IS trying to still miss the mark is disappointing
Thank y'all! That was very well done. As a French with a West African grandmother, I grew up identifying with characters that didn't look like me (or weren't the same gender). Obviously, people of european origin (and boys) can do the same, as proven repeatedly by the success of films in which the protagonist isn't white and /or male.
For more POC in fantasy, may I suggest Ursula Le Guin's books? The Earthsea series takes place on an archipelago where only a few islands in the east are inhabited by white people. The first book has hardly a female character, but that is corrected in later installments.
"The Dispossessed", "The left hand of Darkness", and "The Telling" are classics of science-fiction, and really worth reading. I have a particular affection for "The Lathe of Heaven" myself, though it is considered a minor work. And she has also some great short stories...
Also a great name of science-fiction is of course Octavia Butler, who was for a long time the odd woman of color in the field.
Do you folks have more recent names to add?
I have mostly been reading YA these days, hilariously, but Six of Crows is a great example of inclusivity (it's also a great example of an author who previously wrote all white content, realized it, and made active work to make her world more racially included! it's the dubmledore's gay, but done right by actually making it canon in further content). I've read Earthsea, but I haven't read her other books so I'l add that to my list for sure!
Becky Chambers has written some really inclusive scifi books you might enjoy. Her Wayfarers series starts with a book called "A long way to a small angry planet" which is a very complex and interesting piece of work considering I believe it was her first novel. Anyway as an English literature student, I loved it and I hope you do too! :)
I think my biggest issue was that it was a ‘Shondaland‘ show so I had assumed she was the actual showrunner and as a black Woman she would know about a lot of issues that were discussed. But to find out Shonda Rimmes was not the showrunner and it was a white guy was disappointing and explained a lot of the race issues and made me less interested in the show. In addition it seems as if there are few POC involved in positions of power behind the scenes as well. The whole show needs to do better in S2.
Honestly, I thought this show was a breath of fresh air. I was happy to see people of color being seen as a person first, rather than as a skin color. Race isn't everything. Also, I think these ladies are placing too much expectation on the show to be "preachy". The creator's never claimed that the show is about racial or social justice, they simply wanted to include more people of color, people of some African origin, as main characters. We aren't watching the show to be preached at, and preaching never changed anyone but empathy does! You don't build empathy by being preachy!
@@tdr.220 Yeah, that’s good and all. BUT why did they have to play on harmful stereotypes when choosing a more diverse cast? Why did the darkest man on the cast have to be the most evil? I would have love to see the reverse like having the main female be black and the main male be white 🤷🏽♀️ it would have been a nice change.
@@tdr.220 Well said thank you!!
Just quietly, I was really disappointed they went the race angle in the show. The "we came from nothing, they allowed us to be something and we cannot mess that up" dialogue that came up REALLY drew me out of the immersion of the production at that point and it was hard to get back into it afterwards. It was a cop-out. It wasn't necessary - if anything I would have loved to have seen more people of colour in many more roles within the show and have it be treated as a proper AU setting where race simply wasn't a thing. They didn't need to write an excuse to have prominent characters portrayed by people of colour. For me, that was the most frustrating thing. That being said, I really enjoyed watching it.
Thank you...they shouldn't have bothered to explain their blackness in white spaces.
She didn't say they came from nothing, she said they came from 2 different societies and were looked at like curiosities.
"They didn't need to write an excuse to have prominent characters portrayed by people of colour." - If they didn't what would be the point of the show itself?
@@evilblackcat6357 I mean they took liberties in other areas, I don't believe there is one person who seriously believes this show was supposed to be an accurate portrayal of the period. As far as I am concerned, why not call the casting choices just creative liberties, no need to justify
@@jessjess7749 I'll just go ahead and assume this is just another typical example of 'progressive' racism.
We need some beautiful brown and dark skinned black women. Beautiful women of other races than white or biracial. I'd like a Tika Sumpter or maybe a younger version of her, there are lots of actors and actresses that can be in this show. They can do better
I came in watching the show blind, my sister watched it and recommended it to my family, I didn’t know that they where trying to advertise the diversity of the show. Thank you guys for addressing these issues, because there are some things I just didn’t notice as a white person and it’s important to learn and grow
I think the best movie that really shows diversity and it was a musical, Cinderella from 1997. Starring Brandy and Paolo Montalban. It's a good watch.
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but Gigi saying she got a warm and fuzzy feeling seeing people who looked like her, was making me feel a way. Girl they look like YOU, but not me or a lot of black people so I disagree with feeling any kind of satisfaction from seeing these actors in the show. This casting was no different than every show that’s on tv right now. Literally just think about 5 shows on air right now with “black girls” and tell me they don’t look just like Marina Thompson. This isn’t ground breaking, it’s much of the same.
I was very disappointed with this show. I see this all the time. If they really wanted to make it different then they should’ve cast darker skinned people as lead roles and the lighter skin and whites in secondary or servant roles.
I saw my family of black people on the show. And if thats your pick it look similiar to Lady Danbury to me.
So glad you covered colorism. For all the ways the marketing lauded the inclusive casting, the biggest roles played by PoC were mixed race with close proximity to whiteness (specifically the actors playing Simon, Marina, and the queen).
This was a wonderful conversation- thank you for having it! On top of the race topic, as a musician some of the music bothered me - at the end, the Duke and Duchess were supposed to be doing a waltz, and the music wasn't in 3/4 time! That being said, I hope there's a season 2 and I hope the creators take everyone's feedback into consideration.
I thought waltzes were a Victorian thing?
@@MsDonttrythisathome they definitely became quite popular in the Victorian era, with the help of composers like Johann Strauss Sr. and Jr.! But the waltz did exist earlier
@@staceyburwick6034 Oh! I learned something new today 😌!
@@MsDonttrythisathome 😊
HA this drove me nuts too! They joined hands so slowly and I was READY for a slow waltz of looking into each other’s eyes and falling in love as a call back to the earlier dance scene in the show, and then all of a sudden they were hopping away 😂
Thank you to everyone for sharing your thoughts! I knew the way they addressed race in the show fell very flat but couldn't put it into words. This helped me understand why. Love and good vibes to everyone!
Thank you Noelle and all the guests, this was nuanced and thoughtful and I so appreciate it!
So glad to see this panel setup back! I hope it returns again for other discussions.
As a black person, I loved Bridgerton. I have no problems with the casting. I loved Simon he was incredibly gorgeous. People are just being ridiculous with these arguements. We black people naturally come in many different skin tones and features from light to dark. We can be represented in many ways. The most diverse people race on earth are Africans. Seeing us on screen in all our sun kissed mocha, chocolate, caramel, latte, is captivating. I hate that we keep boxing ourselves into known stereotypes.
@Esther Alatishe No they did not. Lady Dandburys character was dark. STOP being ridiculous. And the rest werent even light skinned either. They were meduim toned. I wish some black people and others would stop the foolishness. I think people just want anything to complain about. The only Light skinned Marina had a very negative role. She was a pregnant single mom.
Finally a reasonable comment
I agree and I wanted more of the Queen! She was sinfully good, I felt her power as a Queen even though she was fair-skinned. There is a stereotype within our culture that deem fair-skinned POC as weaker and darker skinned ppl as stronger. That’s an issue within itself. I need another season to go into the background of how the Queen came to marry her non-Black King. I need more of Lady Danbury’s legacy too.
@C I shut the fuck up!! These people are not black!! They are biracial there is a difference.
@@prettygorgeous7989 Being biracial doesnt erase African dna. Its still there. Stop splitting hairs for drama.
I completely understand where the people who complain about the lack of POC in period dramas come from. But as a POC (French and not American which I think has its importance culturally speaking) I don’t care too much about that. I don’t care about not seeing POC in fancy dresses or positions of power during Regency era in England. What I care more about is seeing my ancestors and history and struggles and fights acknowledged and represented. I want to see slaves rebellions as they often happened in French colonies or elsewhere. I want the trope of the white saviour to end and see POC having agency. When I see a period drama in which PoC are treated just as regular folks and wear beautiful garments and read and write and sometimes interact with white people as if they were equal, I feel robbed of part of my history.
It was such an interesting video and it’s so good to hear opinions and takes on such matters.
Queen Charlotte ending racism is an elitist misnomer..there was a white working class movement now swept under the carpet that helped to end slavery in America and they did more than any aristocrat.
I see what you mean but I disagree . We deserve to see ourselves represented in a way that isn’t always heavy and isn’t always related to struggle .
@@tessandjonkou167 I agree, I love seeing something more lighthearted rather than a constant reminder of slavery, it's exhausting. Seeing images of people who I look like in beautiful dresses along with other people of color as well as white people is honestly so lovely. I actively stopped watching movies and shows that only want to portray my ancestors as slaves or under Jim Crow law. I am obviously from the United States but I am sick of these images.
You care about truth rather than an alternative truth (fake news) being promoted in its place. I'd say if you want a diverse cast, put these characters in a time and place where these people could have existed in the way you want to portray them.
Both, both is good. I want movies about the victories of my ancestors, and I want fantasy where for once the Black characters aren't suffering. Though as a French West Indian too (salut !) I kinda burned out of slavery/segregation pieces that more often than not, feel more like suffering porn than commemoration of a hard and, ironically, often neglected history (especially in France 🙄). I dunno. Maybe I read/watched Roots too many times too young. I wouldn't say no to a black Lizzie Bennet, as weird as it might look.
We Afropeans have our own history that runs through European "learned in school" history quite invisibly to our Caucasian compatriots. We don't need to have our history made fantastic. We have been here for time, from Hannibal with his elephants, the ottoman conquest of Mediterranean Europe and a litany of artists, soldiers, politicians and common folk who have contributed in big and small ways to the construction of modern Europe. POCs of Europe do not benefit, in my view, from black lives matter-ing Middlemarch. This show was clearly made by Americans for Americans. As much as some people are watching this or that BBC Merlin show and feel better about themselves for it, I have to point out that us black Europeans who have been here for 100, 200, 1500 years and have never been slaves, are still waiting for a true and honest representation of our lives, history and culture in European and American entertainment media.
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and perspectives on this topic. It's extremely valuable and I am grateful for the emotional lift you're doing.
Noelle you are litterly the best!!! thanks for beeing so helpfull and using your platform to educate ppl!!!
One of the last points of feeling wrong for the first thought you have being a negative one really resonated with me. Years ago, hearing the similar advice of "the first thought in your head is what they taught you to think, the second is your heart" really helped me process things. I cannot stop the first thought, I will immediately hear my parents or grandparents reminders of "those kind of people" (or any other racist/sexist bullshit), and seconds later "the hell is that? what the fuck brain??" because I am not that person they tried to make me into.
It also helps with negative thoughts from abuse and depression too. "I'm worthless/unattractive/too fat/etc" popping in is only what they taught me, "I am not! I am amazing as I am!" is the real truth. I'm not better, I can't make those thoughts stop either, but constantly reinforcing how wrong those implicit thoughts are helps.
There's a lot packed into that small tiny piece of advice and I am happy to hear more people picking up on it.
Big thank you to everyone involved here, for once again giving up their time and energy to provide such an informative and nuanced conversation. ❤️
Important to say that in real life when a black woman did become an English duchess, nobility found an excuse to take the title away from her.
Who was she?
@@aliceroared Dido. She was born to a admiral of the British navy John Lindsey and a slave Maria Belle. Her father brought her to England, to be brought up by his uncle William Murray. She was brought up as an aristocrat and was an heiress. Theres a film about her called Belle, I would recommend it, its a really interesting story.
Exactly. The show made me think of the innumerable Black & other non-white people living in England at the time whose stories have never been told. It felt like inclusion at the price of erasure.
Thank you! 💗💗💗 Learning to be anti racist. I appreciate your panelists for their time and emotional labor, and Noelle for giving everyone the platform to expand their dialogue. 💗
Honestly, I thought this show was a breath of fresh air. I was happy to see people of color being seen as a person first, rather than as a skin color. Race isn't everything. Also, I think these ladies are placing too much expectation on the show to be "preachy". The creator's never claimed that the show is about racial or social justice, they simply wanted to include more people of color, people of some African origin, as main characters. We aren't watching the show to be preached at, and preaching never changed anyone but empathy does! You don't build empathy by being preachy!
Thank you so much for this! As someone who works in the entertainment industry I know how important it is to have these conversations so thank you for spending your time and energy to educate us and help create a better world one addicting, trashy melodrama at a time.
I know we’ll see better representation in the future!!
Another thing. The royal marriage ending racism is so fictional science fiction fantasy unrealistic, that it IS completely fantasy. And doesn't take anything down to the fantasy world which is that.
Thank you so much for having this conversation! I greatly appreciate your willingness to talk about the racial issues in the show. It really made me uncomfortable that there are not a lot of people talking about it. I am a big fan of the book series, the author and was so excited for this Netflix adaptation but that doesn't mean I have to turn a blind eye to the things I find problematic with it. So really, this was a discussion a lot of people needed to hear and take into consideration.
On another note, would love to hear a Bridgerton costume review from you guys because 1) where are the chemises and 2) would love to know how do you feel about their design choices as the show is a fantasy regency romance that isn't a traditional period piece?
PLEASE find a couple of dark-skinned women to speak about dark-skinned black or poc issues in media. PLEASE!!!
We don’t “find” people. It’s not an academic panel that was selected for the specific color of their skin. This is a group of actual friends who just wanted to get together to discuss the topic. We don’t choose our friends by the color of their skin.
@@Costuming_Drama 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
@@Costuming_Drama This answer is a cop out.
Your panel was made up of your friends who are Black and POC, so you may not have chosen them based on skin color but they were specifically chosen to have this conversation because of their race and how it is represented in the show. Just as your Asian friends did not like how they resented in this show, a darker skinned person/people should’ve been apart of this conversation to discuss the hurtful stereotype being portrayed.
This is the same reason many of the people in your discussion did not enjoy this show as much. MISREPRESENTATION.
Please don’t take this a hate comment, I really enjoyed this conversation but this response really put me off.
The black women are pretty good representation. Only the girl with the glasses is light skinned. These are not mixed girls so like myself they are quite familiar.
@@SW-rm1wu she does not have that kind of knowledge for our colour levels. The girls she got is a good mix on accident. Telling her there needs to be Lupita dark is not helpful considering the main separation starts from medium brown. The girls were actually black and not biracial. That is acceptable amongst most black women. None of these women were represented in the main roles. Older black women without love interest are ok but younger with love interest is not shown in this show and others.
Honestly, I never saw this kind of dedication, well-preparation and respect in a panel on one topic.
Thank you so much for your time and your work to teach us.
Would love to see you all have a similar conversation on The Personal History of David Copperfield. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the casting is completely colorblind, as in race isn't relevant to plotlines, and also irrelevant in who is related to whom, and also had more inclusivity of Asian POC as opposed to just Black and White casting.
This is actually very much on my to watch list (as an Indian-American) but I just haven't had the time to get around to it yet. I love Dev Patel though and the cast looks AMAZING (as do the costumes) so I'm excited to get to it! :D
I didn't know this existed! Now I'm going to go hunt it down! Thank you!
@@NamiSparrow TBH I didn't find the story that exciting, but the acting was fantastic and I just loved seeing so much representation. The costumes were fantastic. I'm half Lebanese and I get very excited for anything with some sort of MENASA representation.
I think it's a very difficult era to pick to do a diverse cast any justice. A lot of these novels were written about class conflict and women's issues as first wave feminism was just beginning then specifically in England. There was a Pride & Prejudice Bollywood version that worked well as the south Asian culture is very similar to those times. Ang Lee made Sense and Sensibility and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon with the same story line. .both brilliant.. but how rubbish both films would have been with a mixed cast.! They would have just sucked. It's just virtue signalling..to attract publicity. To fluffy light entertainment drama..
@@redstar7292 Hamilton.
I actually liked that race wasn't mentioned much in the show. To me, not making peoples ethnicity a focal point of the story makes it feel more inclusive. There are a lot of other shows out there that focus on characters race to highlight racism in our society and in turn promote education for non-people of colour. The way Bridgerton was done made it seem like racism didnt exist, which is not reality of course, but isnt that what we are striving for? For a time when the colour of your skin and your cutural heritage are just part of who you are and dont seperate you from the rest of society?
But the show isn’t claiming to be post-racial and it isn’t race neutral. Also people’s ethnicity is a part of their identity, I don’t think there will ever be a post-racial world
I think also that part of the problem is it not being talked abt doesn’t make sense for the time period that it’s set in. It’s unrealistic for a show depicting the meeting of white and non-white societies to have barely any of its characters acknowledge the reason(s) for the previous separation (aka race).
@@TheGeekyLibrarian yeah, if it was strictly fantasy I don’t think I would mind but the fact the creators tried to say that this was not a race blind Brandi in Cinderella story, that they would actually address things makes it super weird that they chose to do this.
Oh my gosh. I loooved not having to even think about race just because a character was black. I really appreciated how color blind it was. I feel like that is what we're striving for to tell stories without race having to be it's own character in the story.
@@jane-annjoseph5868 I don’t think being color blind is as woke as people seem to think. Like I don’t know what progressives you’ve come into contact with but this isn’t how you go about respecting black peoples lol
There were Asians in the show. An Indian girl was one of the girls in d ball room. 2 Chinese ladies with the Queen. 2 also played instruments at the balls. Diversity was there please. The main focus was Daphne trying to get a love match. Nothing anyone can say will change my mind. It was A BRILLIANT PRODUCTION. the world will always criticise. How can they fit all what you are saying into the film? Common!!!
it's so tedious at this point. Considering they are all light skin on the panel by the way.
what Noelle said about implicit bias, and the first thought that comes to your head is a result of culture, but the second thought is up to you to act on. I've felt that "oh my god, why did I think that", and its a choice to be a decent human being. Everything these lovely ladies said was amazing. loved it, and now I know I'm not alone feeling like this show missed the bar with racial inclusion/representation.
I don't think I've clicked onto a video to watch it as it is uploaded so fast. Just to add as a white woman in the UK the issue of race aside from Lady Danbury's two line statement did not cross my mind especially when I was lost in this whimiscle show, for a lot of people like me it wouldn't have been enough to raise and address the issue - I grew up in a rather white environment (and even now when I live in a city, by happen chance most of my friends are white) so aside from on the internet and in media I am not necessarily exposed to these issues on a day to day basis
Honestly, I thought this show was a breath of fresh air. I was happy to see people of color being seen as a person first, rather than as a skin color. Race isn't everything. Also, I think these ladies are placing too much expectation on the show to be "preachy". The creator's never claimed that the show is about racial or social justice, they simply wanted to include more people of color, people of some African origin, as main characters. We aren't watching the show to be preached at, and preaching never changed anyone but empathy does! You don't build empathy by being preachy!
@@tdr.220 The show is propaganda for race mixing. Laughable that People can’t see it
Thanks for the spoiler warning, I'll come back and check it out after I've finished watching the series xoxo
Aside from the "King marrying Queen Charlotte ended racism" moment, the threat from lord Featherington to Will was awful. The mention of the colonies....... they confirm the history of colonialism and race politics in Bridgerton is exactly as it is in real life, the way they explain it away becomes more of a slap in the face.
Great discussion. I just want to point out that Shonda already gave us a colour blind period drama in Still Star Crossed. That show was cancelled due to low ratings. Most of the criticism that I saw was around the historical accuracy of having black people in those roles. It's not just the show runners that need to do better. The (white) audience needs to do better too.
I swear it's like people completely forgot about that show and it's heartbreaking because white people didn't buy the dark skinned female lead being desired by the white male lead.
Wow I missed that show would have loved to know about it 🙁😆
This was such a great panel discussion. I recently watched Bridgerton as a "fluff piece" to break up a much heavier and darker show I was binging at the same time. I enjoyed the show well enough, not having read any of the books, or knowing anything about the show beforehand. But even at that surface level of viewing, I also noticed how eurocentric the lead POC actors were. Like it was mentioned during the panel, I see that as a definite step forward, but clearly not enough. Here's hoping that the next "color blind" show will do more and be better.
I was waiting for this! 😄💕
Lady Danbury is a beloved character and she shows up more in later books
Yep, especially in “Romancing Mr Bridgerton”
This was such a great panel. I had only seen one ad for Bridgerton before watching so I didn’t have the high expectations that most of the panel had. I remember being so annoyed when watching it and there was just one throw away line about the king and queen’s marriage ending segregation. If they do a second season I really hope they delve more into how the culture got to where it is now. I think they could do this fairly easily by including some flashbacks from the point of view of older characters.
I'm so glad to hear from all of you wonderful people! Here's to the next show being that much better.
I wish I could send this video to Ryan Murphey. I’d like AHS to take notes
Thank you all for talking about this! In particular, I had not seen any of the advertising, so I did not know about the race-baiting problems with this show. Thank you for educating me
I once heard the phrase "Enjoy it quietly." Which basically means that it is alright to enjoy something even if it's problematic, but you don't necessarily have to share it. While I think that's a great practice for small-scale things, when it comes to a show like Bridgerton, which has a huge following, it doesn't work. Like many of the amazing panelists said it is so important to critique shows openly!
I loved every second of this video! Thank you all so much for talking about these subjects, and providing sources of education for people to learn by.
I absolutely love panels like these. Since covid, looking at media became way more interesting and eye-opening after people started to talk about it. People from different backgrounds who actually know real life experiences depicted in it? I love learning about how critical you should be, it really changes everything.
I haven’t finished the video yet, but heres a thought i had when i watched the show: they could’ve made one of the two “big” families black or asian? That could’ve been interesting to see!
Alternative universe where we can escape and forget about the problems of today. Not everything on TV should try and solve the problems of today. Enjoy it and move on.
Bridgerton turned out to be a great show as I was unaware of the factual and historical background. Listening to your conversations ladies has also been fascinating and enlightening.
You have also though touched on a subject and brought to the fore an issue I've pondered over again and again. And wonder if there are other people out there who may have similar questions or thoughts on this.
This issue is; why is it that based on skin colour, mixed race people born out of a union between a caucasian and a black, so equally half and half tend to be called black? Why are they mostly spoken about and classified as "black" and not say maybe "non black"; "non white" or just simply "brown"? Mixed race also seems to be a better description in my opinion. Why does the world perpetuate an identity that "of mixed" equals the same as "black" when clearly the makeup is 50:50 resulting in brown? The colour black is black. The colour white is white. A mix of equal quantities of black and white does not result in black colour. It is brown. So why still today are the terms "mixed race, people of colour and black" used so interchangeably? Black? White? Brown? Obviously there are those made up of various other combinations of race which result in being brown. Light brown, dark brown is still brown. Differing shades of brown does not result in black. Why are brown people called black?
Could the reason why "colourism" continues in this day and age be then a continuation of what in my opinion is a fallacy, because brown skin colour is the "fair complexion" i. e. the lighter or more white side of black? Is there such a thing though? But there again, black is black, white is white. Two distinct colours!
WHY THEN IS BROWN CONTINUALLY CLASSED AS BLACK in our world of race identity? Apparently, red and blue result in purple. There is no ambiguity with purple? Perhaps if the world stopped classifying people of brown skin as black (the Duke of Hastings) as an example, perhaps the issue of colourism would eventually start fading away too? Light brown / fairer skin implying "a better, more beautiful black"; darker brown implying to " uglier, not so good black"????
Just a thought, just asking? 🤔
Great conversation...I loved the show but it was glaringly obvious that all the black characters were light skinned! Hopefully S2 will address some of these issues...I’m looking forward to it...
It's nice to see that the Inclusion panel in CoCoVid wasn't just a one time event. :)
... I would love to see the Costuming Community produce a period piece, maybe Karolina Żebrowska can direct, and include all the costumers of colour who are willing to participate. And of course it would be great if other underrepresented groups - like people with disabilities or trans people - are included too.
Absolutely fascinating discussion! To be honest none of this occurred to me as I was watching the show so I'm still learning and have nothing to add haha. But thank you everyone for doing this :)
Such a great panel discussion!!! Thank you to all the wonderful people who participated.
YES!!! I love that the costume community is talking about this is a video. I have seen so many other videos by poc creators and they are amazing videos but i am happy to have my fav community step up.
As I hadn't known the advertising focused so much on race being discussed within the show, I had assumed this was just colour blind casting and had been pleased to see this step in the right direction. I'm now disappointed that they didn't follow through with their promises. It would have been better to leave it at just colour blind a la R&H Cinderella than promising something they weren't going to really commit to.
Also thank you for pointing out things that hadn't occurred to me, such as the stereotyping of putting a black woman in Marina's role and that the darkest skinned character was the most reprehensible
Amazing conversation, really interesting to hear your thoughts.
The discussion towards the beginning about the casting of mixed race actors over black actors caught my attention the most. Though I understand the sentiment from where everyone was coming from, and I agree up to a point. The discussion still leaned towards delegitimising mixed race actors / characters.
Being a mixed black and white actor, my own experience has shown me that the push for better representation extends to us as well. To see both Simon and Marina played by mixed race actors helped me to feel represented.
I can 100% see where the panelists are coming from, however they are telling another minoritized race that their representation doesn’t matter as much.
Now, the character of Simon is a black character. Both his parents were black. So you could argue that he should be played by a black actor. However a big problem when it comes to casting is that mixed race actors will only be seen for characters described as mixed race or black / (insert minoritized race). Never will we be seen for characters described as white. Even though that is half of who we are, we are not seen as that and so the parts available to us are reduced. What then should we do?
I’ll close by saying, thank you again for sharing your thoughts. The conversation as a whole was great to listen to, and to learn about how the show was viewed from different perspectives.
Mix raced people want to see themselves on TV also and they deserve to work too. Mix raced people are here and growing in number and they shouldn't have to be put down because they make other people feel some kind of way. Sometimes people have to deal with their own issues of self worth. People are born the color they are born and they shouldn't have a stigma attached to them.If Marina is to be a distance family member of white people than it would make sense that she would look mixed raced.Even though it fantasy it still make more sense.
@@dawandabocanegra8935 Completely agree. Especially with your point on Marina being mixed from a story stand point.
Thank you for sharing your perspectives. As someone who works in the Live entertainment industry it is something I will definitely take with me on all future projects. We should always aim to do better. X
Thank you all for bringing this up. Love hearing these feelings and thought. Plus some of the facts I may have missed.
"It is completely okay to love imperfect media"
Thank you for making this!! I was rubbed the wrong way by the show but so many I spoke to acted like I was crazy
It's absolutely not ok that people acted like that to you. Send them this way to this video, they've got to learn! :) I hope this will make it easier for you to speak about things like this in the future :)
@@NamiSparrow thank you!! It was a handful of white “”woke historian”” teens on Tik tok so I didn’t take it to heart too intensely but it’s wild to be assumed racist for calling out the colorism
This is a great discussion. I watched half of the series and caught most of the things the panel discussed, but I didn't fully catch the reinforcement of stereotypes. And because I paid no attention to the advertising, I didn't realize what a false hope of color-blind casting was set forth. Thanks for going to the effort of arranging this conversation!
It was very evident to me from the beginning that all the black people who were meant to be attractive were lightskinned and dark skinned black people were only allowed to occupy matronly or unnamed roles. Definitely wasnt an accident. Thanks for calling it out!