Shopsmith is NUTS! (Square nuts, to be exact)
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- Опубліковано 15 кві 2024
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Hey you! Yeah, you! Do me a favor favor and leave a comment. And make it a great day. Scott.
Back in the day, my dad had some 8 point sockets. What for, you ask? Square nuts!
I have an 8 point socket in my kit from my days working in tech theater. All the lighting instruments had clamps with 1/2" square heads.
great topic! I work for a family owned company that has been doing industrial supply since 1847 - we hare in an old mill building and have several hundred square feet dedicated to storing old square nuts! If you can believe, people still come to the counter today looking for square nuts for restoration projects. Even our old building uses metal rods with huge square nuts used as collar ties. We also have 100 year old wrenches that have a square opening specifically for square nuts too
That’s awesome! Where are you located?
@@MyGrowthRings Worcester, MA
@@JeepinMaxx I've been to Worcester a couple times back when we lived in Lowell in the late 80's. I'll have to look it up the next time I'm in the area.
@@MyGrowthRings we're hard to miss - attached to the Polar Beverages building with the huge inflatable Polar Bear on the roof 🙂
The inventor of square nuts anticipated the invention of T Track. They fit quite well in T Track. I built from plans a jig for cutting box joints with a router that required square nuts be inserted in the T Track for holding alternating "blocks" that dimension the size of the notches.
That MUST be it!
Hex ones fit the track, as well.
I tried the hex nuts first even though the instruction called for square nuts. I soon found that the hex nuts slipped and could not be tightened enough.
RE: Everett's comment about living on a farm. For many years (I haven't lived on a farm since the '60's) square head bolts and nuts were commonly used for several reasons (some of these came from a booklet entitled "The History of Fasteners" I saw referenced many years ago ('80's?) and I purchased one from the Industrial Fastener Institute, at that time, located in Cleveland, OH). Bolts and nuts were originally manufactured by the local blacksmith. He could easily make a square head bolt or square nut, but they were crude, and there were few thread standards in those days, so you had to keep the matching nut with the bolt, because there might not be another nut that would fit that bolt. If you look back into the 19th Century, there were mostly open end wrenches. There were only a few square box end wrenches, most commonly in metal working machinery, many square head adjustment and square head set screws. Most wrenches from the early days of farm machinery were open end wrenches and likely supplied with the machine you bought (Antique farm machinery, Antique cars and trucks). I have seen some with a square opening, to be used like a socket wrench, but most wrench sets in those days were open end only. Where the farm comes in: machinery, fence, and gate bolts were exposed to the weather continuously and were mostly square head (like lag screws, that have only 'recently' come with a hex head, due to sockets and power impact wrenches). This is due to rust and corrosion out in the weather and lesser quality of the steel that the older hardware was made from. The square head bolt or nut would corrode, but if the corners were affected, you could still get a good purchase on the longer side of a square head and not round off the corners, even with an adjustable (Crescent) end wrench, which is a GREAT corner rounding tool on hex heads bolts and nuts. Why are there so may specialty socket sets on the market today with new and improved 6 point configurations? Because power impacts and traditional sockets frequently round off the corners of hex heads and nuts as we take them to higher and higher torque specs, making them hard to remove. So we see high strength bolts and nuts with splined heads and other new configurations that are able to take more torque with less damage.
Craftsman offered 8 point sockets in 1/4 and 3/8 drive in there stores up until K-Mart took them over and ruined the company. I still find those sets in my travels to estate sales and flea markets, and I have more sets than I will ever need, but they are so handy (square heads still exist out there, older machinery, some plumbing fittings, Shopsmiths, etc.) and rare, I can't bring myself to pass them up. There are other tool manufacturers that still offer 8 point socket sets: Grey Pneumatic and Williams are just two that I know of off hand. So Scott, come up to the 'complete' tool box!
The stove bolts you referred to were round head bolts, a pan head is modified by making the head shorter with a flatter profile, allowing more torque to be applied to a slotted head that has more wall height at the edge of the head instead of the rounded head's slot. The same applies to other drive types (Phillips, Hex, Torx, etc.).
Machine screws are all the 'numbered' sizes (2, 4, 6, 8, and 10). There used to be, and the standards still exist for: (0, 1, 3, 5, and 12). Interestingly, there is a formula to determine the theoretical 'maximum' body diameter of a numbered machine (or wood) screw. Multiply the number size by .013, and add .060. ((4 x .013) + .060 = .112), ((6 x .013) + .060 = .138), ((8 x .013) + .060 = .164), ((10 x .013) + .060 = .190). I have never been able to find out who or why this ratio was adopted. Machine screws are further defined as a 'coarse' thread (4-40, 6-32, 8-32, 12-24) and 'fine' thread: 4-48, 6-40, 8-36, 12-32). Wood screws follow the same size numbering system, and equivalent maximum dia., but add a '14' which is .242 dia. Stove bolts were usually sized as 1/8, 5/32, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8; and I believe (since I have a history of breaking them quite readily) they were made from softer steel than our current machine screws. Hence, some old timers call a No. 10 a 3/16 since they are so close in size. Bolts are defined as anything 1/4" and larger and they also have their own different thread series within a given diameter, and are further defined by Grade, which defines a higher strength bolt.
I was disappointed that I could not locate my copy of "The History of Fasteners" presently, so I had to resort to my memory and to my 'Machinery's Handbook' for some of the information given earlier, like fine threads. I hope I remembered it correctly. If you have the chance to find a 'Machinery's Handbook' used or new, it doesn't matter too much how old it is, the information given in it is still applicable. Mine is a 21st edition, which I bought new in 1979, replacing an older edition that didn't have much in it about metric threads. I would say the 21st edition is probably about as old as you would want to go back in this day and age. Used copies are available in bookstores, at yard and estate sales, and online. Unless you intend to be in the metal working industry, I wouldn't suggest stepping up to the latest edition, they are quite pricey.
Thanks for the nice review of the topic!
It's nice to see that there are more "hardware nerds" out there with me!
Remember Kmart did not take them over. The same doofus private equity jerk bought both and used them as his personal piggy bank.
Back in my teenage years I remember being referred to as a stupid square nut. My opinion is that now in my seventies I’m not as stupid but still proudly a square nut! I replaced all of mine!
Too funny, Bob.
There sure are a lot of nuts out there! 😂
You got that right. An old family friend once told me that the mighty oak also started out as a nut!
Thanks for the history class on square nuts.
Kinda a Reader's Digest version, but thanks for watching and commenting. Scott
Hey Scott, this video is nuts!!! I find that using an adjustable wrench on square nuts takes care of most of my needs. I think Shopsmith has replaced a lot (or at least some?) of the square nuts over the years with hex nuts, but there a still a few places where the nuts are captured and they still use square nuts, but those places you don't need a wrench at all.
Well, that’s good news at least.
I recently tried to find the difference between a screw and a bolt. The best explanation was that a bolt is a screw with a nut on it.
Hs, if only the debate could be resolved that easily.
I would be remiss if I didn't point out I used 12 point because they were around. There are 8 point sockets, 4 point sockets, 4 point box end, even ratcheting 4 point box wrenches available. With those flared bolts I am far less likely to overnighten it and break the aluminum base.
Everett
Thanks for chiming in, Everett and thanks for being the catalyst for this discussion. Scott
Once again we are like-minded. I replaced the square nuts with nylon insert hex nuts and I am much happier.
#GreatMinds
Lol those stupid square things. Thank you Everett.
Keep up the great work. 👽
Thank you for the history lessen. I share your distain for square nuts, but they do have their place.
In defense of square nuts let me touch on the point you made about their ease of manufacture. They could also be made on the fly by farmers and the like in remote areas. Repairing machines in the field without access to a corner hardware store only required the means to cut, drill and tap some sort of flat stock in order to replace broken or worn out nuts. I worked at one time for a man who restored antique marble clocks and other decorative objects that were invariably held together with hand made brass hardware. Frustrating, yes, but impressive to see the in house production of this type of hardware. Thanks for the video!
I was a full-time horologist for 5 years and made my share of square nuts, so I know exactly what you mean. Thanks for watching and commenting! Scott
square nuts and straight head screws out to be outlawed
I just invested in some Metrinch spanners and sockets years ago. In addition to needing far fewer tools (if I had endless space I would not have a ShopSmith 😂) they grip square nuts and other odd sized fasteners just fine.
When I rebuilt/refurbished/restored.....? a 1956 Mark 5 I kept it all original. The only place I recall the square nuts being is the casters and bed to leg frames. I suppose if it was a newer model I might change them out but if you have a workshop then you must have some sort of tools around, a crescent wrench if you are desperate. If you are constantly running the nuts loose get some blue Loctite
I have a very old Williams 1/2 inch socket wrench set. Included in that set are a series of 8 point sockets for use on square nuts. I may have used one of those sockets once in the decades that I have had that set..
I also have a set of 8 point sockets which fit square nuts.
When I was a kid I remember that Sears/Craftsman sold 8 point sockets and box end wrenches with there tool kits. I think they did this up until about 1970. I'm pretty sure that you could go in and still buy them up until 1980, or they're about. Yes I'm old, so what, I'm still converting oxygen to carbon dioxide.
That’s an excellent insight. Congratulations on the carbon dioxide production!
As a mechanic and an engineer, I have a complete set of Craftsman square sockets! Why? Besides the few square nuts out there, ever try to remove a pipe plug? The main water valve in the street of old houses has a square nut inside of a tube! I use mine several times a year. When I need one, glad I have that Craftsman socket!
John, I never knew about the square sockets, but having worked in a hardware store I know all about those square pipe plugs. Now I’m off to Google square sockets! Scott
A square nut is less likely to strip when removing it, that being said, having a sockets and such is a fairly new invention. everything was assembled by hand so if you wanted to get some thing tight with out stripping it back then, then the only thing you could use is a square nut. we don't use flat headed screws either, so I replace everything I can with nylon lock nuts. if at all possible I no longer us Phillips head screws either. Torx is the new standard. it is much more secure and easier the remove when needed.
I'm thinking square nuts made assembly easier on some things (back in the day!). For example drop a square nut into U-shaped channel and screw it together? IMSMR square nuts where used to mount car bodies to the chassis, again dropping the nut into a U-shape channel on the chassis.
I can totally see that working.
In a previous career, I worked with penta or 5 sided nuts and bolts. They are a security fastener. Never found a 6, 8, or 12 point socket that could be used. Nor would a flat jaw wrench turn a penta. Must have driven some people nuts trying though. We had 5 point sockets. Only thing that would work.
That's one I've never seen. I'm off to Google!
Ok, that was fascinating! Thanks for mentioning these.
This is a subject you could go nuts over! Nice overview.
#ISeeWhatYouDidThere
There are also 8-pt. sockets just for that nut. I suppose you could just buy the one you needed for that particular nut. For the same diameter nut you get a lot more bearing surface with a square nut and the wrenches are both easier to forge and much less likely to cam out. And slotted "OVAL" headed screws are not uncommon.
Oh, I know they’re not uncommon, I just don’t like them in this application. The long legs are essentially a lever applying a pressure on the castings at those countersinks.
Old farm equipment the 8 point sockets or your adjustable wrench.
Makes sense.
As a mechanic for most of my life, I share your disdain for square nuts and lock washers, Scott. I also really don't like the old sloted head screws. Early in my career, I had to work with a lot of those.
Opinions are split, but it seems like most of the people who have been mechanics share our opinion.
@MyGrowthRings One place that I do like to keep the square nuts and bolts is on my antique stationary engine. It's better to have those fasteners on a 100 plus year old engine to keep it original looking.
Thanks Scott
Thanks for watching and commenting, Marc!
Lol, first thing I did when I got my 2 was lose all 20 of those leg bolts and nuts and replaced them with hex nuts with nylock 😂
#ProMove
Great video and interesting perspective. I never considered that folks might hate square nuts. I just use the appropriate open end wrench and move on.
But, yes, if I have a matching set of hex nuts and I'm refurbishing something I'll use "modern" nuts.
Don't think I've ever given it more thought than that.
That’s probably a very healthy perspective!
Square nuts can be a hassle, but at least many use common thread pitches. I struggle with old tools like my vintage hand planes which use e.g., the original Whitworth thread pitches which are very unusual by todays standards. Example 7/32 x 20 tpi for the knob and tote screw. The hardware is not easy to find, it is expensive if you find it. Taps and dies are also expensive. Now that I have a metal lathe I can make some. Just takes time.
I know, not relevant for Shopsmith, but you asked to leave a comment.
Dave.
Thanks for commenting, Dave. My current employer sells cabinet hardware including decorative pulls and knobs from all over the world, and we encountered what we eventually learned were Whitworth threads on some British-made hardware. We had assumed that all their manufacturing would have switched to metric ages ago. Scott
The UK went metric, but a lot of manufacturing tooling was and maybe is still being used, hence BS Whitworth (55 deg included angle) or BS Coarse or Fine (60 deg included angle). A lot of pipe and tube may state a metric nominal size, but unless the spec states "DIN" it may be the old imperial size with a metric lable.
Dave.
Scott, you have quite the resume! Are you planning on sealing your concrete floor? Or do you plan for a floor covering?
That's a good question. I'm giving some thought to this very question, and I suspect at the very least I'll lat down some OSB. We did that in a shop I worked in and it made a HUGE difference.
Nice review of square not history, but I bet the origin is older than those patents you found for other items that USED the square nut. It is amazing that the hex nut is so old. As a former auction attendee I've purchased old braces which use square tapered bits, and square "sockets" which are driven by the braces.
How good are square nuts? Why does Shopsmith use the square nuts? I bet Jim McCann knows! We can ask him in a month at the upcoming Shopsmith event....
Let's do!
I believe that screw you show at 2:55 is called an oval head screw.
A "SLOTTED" oval head screw! Oval head screws for other types of screwdrivers probably exist but I have never seen one.
@@mikeking7470 I've seen them in Phillips and PoziDrive on European cup hinges in the cabinet hardware industry, but they were phased out when everyone adopted hinge boring machines that use a ram to insert the hinges into the door, and most of them hold on to the hinge with a couple magnets that attach to the screw heads that hold the dowels onto the hinge. Oval head screws look slick in that application, but they crack the magnets!
Who me????? It's always good to hang around to the end of your videos. I checked up to make Everett's name made it into the credit roll. It is. Do people really debate machine screw vs. bolt?
Absolutely they do! I work with a bunch of hardware nerds and we debate EVERYTHING!
I could only find 3 sizes of 8-point sockets before the internet. My grandfather had a 12 socket set. I have no idea how old that set was or where he got it from.
It really is amazing what we now have at our fingertips. There was a time when used Shopsmith’s were hard to find, but with eBay, FB, CL, etc, they seem to be everywhere. That’s good for us but sort of stinks for SS.
FYI If you look up on a power utility pole most if not all 5/8" bolts with nuts are square and have square washers. Easily used with a 10 or 12 inch Cresant adjustable wrench. Not alot of room in a Linemans tool belt 40 or 50 ft. up a wood pole. I know you might have a bucket truck. Not in your fenced in back yard. LOL
That's true, I have noticed them there. And boy, what I wouldn't give for a bucket truck!
100% agree with everything you said. Square nuts are stupid. Very slightly less expensive to make, I doubt it translates into a difference in price at the retail level. They are so rare now square nuts may actually cost more. Although they do help hold a nut tight on a concave surface Shopsmith legs are attached to the castings with square nuts that come with lock washers anyway. Even though I have 12 point socket wrenches I usually just use pliers on a square nut instead.
Don't get me started on lock washers!
@@MyGrowthRings Lock washers are absolutely good, except there are so many of different types it's inevitable the wrong ones get used a lot of the time. And Nyloc type nuts are so readily available, inexpensive, and preferrable in so many applications (like Shopsmith legs) there's no need for lock washers as often as they were used in the past. You got me started, so now it's your turn! :)
@@edmalin7359 Well now you've gone and done it. I used to work for a fastener company and even though we sold split washers and internal and external tooth washers we proved in our own testing that they were worthless. The worst of them were the internal tooth washers, which is exactly the washer that SS uses. NASA later backed-up our conclusions in a report they published. Check out page 9: ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19900009424/downloads/19900009424.pdf
@@MyGrowthRings Interesting reference material form NASA. Don't know how you were testing lock washers but for a lock washer to be worthless there would have to be no difference between using the washer or just a nut alone. I haven't found that to be the case.
I'm sure you know this, but in case anyone else is paying attention I'll mention that lock washers either prevent a nut from turning by friction or by applying pressure to the nut.
Except for Nyloc and fiber washers that tightly grip the threads I don't like the ones that use friction. In the worst cases you can just use shake-proof flange nuts that have a sawtooth face on them. Those definitely won't shake loose, but might wreck the material if you have to remove them.
Washers that put pressure on the nut, like split washers do work better than no washer at all within their limits. Of course they'll fail if the application exceeds those limits. There are also Bellville washers and other spring type washers that will work very well when used appropriately. Jam nuts aren't washers, but another type of pressure retainer that can work incredibly well, especially when a jam nut is made of softer metal that will easily corrode and attach itself to threads on the bolt and to the main nut, but that's probably not how they were intended to work :)
I spent most of my career in the the electronic packaging side of the military defense manufacturing industry. Split washers were standard on bolted joints from the my days as an apprentice drafter in 1968 until about 2000 while at Lockheed Martin. We had a mechanical engineer that swore he had data that proved split washers actually were worse than no lock washer at all. I was very skeptical until our Components Engineer (Hardware Specialist) started requiring deformed thread, all metal lock nuts for all bolted joints. The nylon lock nuts had been our go to, to avoid using split lock washers, except they are limited to about 6 uses (assembly, disassembly, assembly) before the nylon insert is no longer viable as a locking device. The all metal lock nuts also have a limited life span, but I believe it is 4 to 6 times more than the nylon lock nut. Mostly, we tried to install our screws into locking helicoils, which had more assembly cycles. Now, all that being said, we were designing electronic equipment that went into military defense (and offensive) equipment and our design life and maintenance cycles were MUCH higher than what a home gamer can ever expect. Plus, the lives of our soldiers and sailors were at stake.
Well everybody has a 12-spline socket, don't they?
I have to believe that square nuts were developed because they were easier to produce and work with every crescent wrench.
I don't like them just because the corners are sharp, and I've sliced my fingers more than a few times.
Everyone that I’ve come across on my SS, I’ve replaced with Hex Nuts.
Well, I do now!
They make sockets for square nuts.
Yes, they do.
Also why not use torx head fasteners that match the torx head of the set screw on the Shop-Smith motor? Uniformity of fasteners and retainers means fewer parts, which means simpler supply chain, which means lower costs.
I think that switching from 5/32 hex to Torx would be a big issue because they want to keep service parts available for older machines. I use Torx on a lot of the European hardware that I interact with at work, and it’s really nice when manufacture sticks with one drive type. It drives me nuts to have a hinge made in Europe with Pozidrive adjustments screw and cams, but Phillips screws used for mounting by American cabinetmakers.
@@MyGrowthRings Thanks for responding. I totally agree about warranty support and that migrating to torx today would be very difficult. However, there is always an opportunity to make changes with new. Your scenario above speaks to either cost cutting from using the manufacturers default parts or poor engineering and/or poor requirements transmitted to the manufacturer.
Scott… here’s a question for ya. Had you discovered that 12 point box end wrenches and sockets fit square heads years ago… would you have such a distaste for them now?
When I was a boy, my dad had every size of wrench memorized for which type of square bolt/nut it fit. Just as we all know it’s gonna take a 7/16” wrench to fit a 1/4”-20… he knew that a 5/8”-12pt would fit a square one. To him, it wasn’t a big deal. Did you know, there were actually combination wrenches made that had the open end a different size than their 12pt box end? He had a few of them and called them his square wrenches. (I wish I had them now!)
Here’s a bit of lost knowledge that he taught me also: most people know they should use a 6pt wrench or socket to break loose a hex fastener because it won’t round off the corners, like a 12point does. As bad as the rounding is when the contact is with six corners, it is one third more so with only four corners engaged. So, always break loose stubborn square nuts/bolts with the box end of the wrench before running it on/off with the 12pt.
I watch Engle’s Coach Shop. He is a wheelwright who restores wagons, coaches and their wheels. As a result, he uses a lot of square bolts and nuts. Because there is no longer a wide variety of them available he often fires up his forge and makes them from hex nuts & bolts.it is a ting of beauty to watch him transform them in under a minute on his anvil.
So Scott… this is an area where some of us older guys don’t have as much disdain as you young pups! •grin•
Yes, because my father-in-law owned a rural hardware store that my bride and I ran for a couple years after his death, I encountered square nuts from time to time. Later, as a clock repairman I even made a few, but I never liked them. I'll have to check out his channel because I think wheelwrights are amazing.
Some people are gifted with the ability to look at a nut or bolt and know what size wrench fits. Experience helps too, especially if you work on the same type of projects regularly. jim
@@jamespowell7196 I used to have that gift but lost it. I wonder if it is due to not using it like I once did or if it's my eyes. Sad either way.
@@jamespowell7196 it helps to be wired mechanically…. But no doubt repetitive exposure does hone the skill!
Sorry you are not a fan of square nuts. As you know, Shopsmith has a tradition to uphold and those square nuts are part of that tradition. Checking your Shopsmith to see if all the square nuts are tight is a good thing. I almost always find something else that needs to be done. I use the square nuts to remind to check over everything on my machine before I get to the 5 point safety check. Thanks for the video.
Sort of like how a Harley rider always needs to carry a tool bag?
@@MyGrowthRings ....and a pan to catch the oil.
For SPT storage I mounted SPT bases to wood bases for more stability. I flush-mounted bolts up through the wood base into the SPT base. Open in SPT base is square (from the top looking down). I had to go to two different Lowes to get square nuts. Yes, they still them. I was told by older gentlemen who worked there that it used to be cheaper to make square nuts.
sacrilegious, I tell you, criticizing the inspired ShopSmith design. LOL good info, good sugestion, if I make the change over to nylock nuts, I wont have to continually tighten my nuts down. Then I will have more time for more productive things.
Exactly. Even worse is not knowing that the square nuts are missing until you step on the caster peddle. Not a good prize.
Hi scott i have one of these machines in a old van on pur property we were going to scrap if you have any suggestions that we could do instead of scrapping it please let us know
If you don’t want to keep it, either offer it for sale on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace or offer it for free to someone who might get some use out of it.
Hex nuts are what made box end wrenches necessary.
Square nuts are most excellent when used with a keeper, by that I mean a matched socket that is molded or machined into a component. One example is on the underside of the 510/520 table to receive the square nuts used to mount the Shaper Fence. In this case, the advantage is that I don't need to adopt a yoga pose to see and reach under the table, use two hands, and a second tool to mount the fence.
Hex nuts can only exist in a world of adopted standards. Imagine a world without any standard of any kind for a moment, but you can't because you 🧟 from a minor 🤮or 🩹10 years ago. 😁