@@wiibur I think the point of that clip was that he was crouch canceling the getup attack, which means that during a tech situation he gets to sit point-blank and easily cover every single wakeup option without inhuman reaction times.
@@meethepie Pretty sure it's really hard to react to all the different tech options in that scenario. Tech in place is about 30 while the rolls are around 40, but the start of the animation is ambiguous and you need enough time to actually perform your punish. You have to be absolutely sure you correctly recognized their tech option or you eat a get up attack or run the wrong way and can't correct (in some cases maybe you can)
It's not something to be encouraged but rich people will always have an advantage in any competition. A person who doesn't have to worry about their next paycheck can attend more events and get more practice against better players. That isn't cheating and it isn't unfair and it doesn't diminish the game for other people. But it's an absolutely massive advantage.
the meta-defining strategy, or how wizzy discovered nothingness, made light, then techchased one atom at a time to build the universe. While I fundamentally agree with the idea of gameplay being accessible, I can't but disagree with the conclusion. The only real answer is the software bandwagon, because there's a crucial bit missing: stock controllers themselves are a lottery. That's what initially drove controller innovation and is still the core difference, even though they're so feature-packed it's hard to see. Stock controllers have everything from uneven pode, misaligned stickboxes, snapback to polling nulls. Others are, with few exceptions worth discussing, goomwaves. Despite that, analog controllers still deteriorate. We can remove many common issues for essentially free for everyone via software, so you don't have to play the controller metagame that hard. Controllers will still deteriorate, but everyone has 1.0 cardinals and consistent dashback ooC. Optimal gameplay is so deep in TAS-territory, that neglecting consistency over hardware purity is silly. The only controller-related topic that I think warrants a legality discussion and how enhanced non-boxx controllers are reaching feature parity - and no, the answer wont be dental floss -, is (boxxed) auto-asdi. So no, there's no "slippery slope", never was. There's only old problems and new solutions that sometimes become new problems. (btw, this coming from a competitive powerlifter, casually shitting on sumo is even more ridiculous than the rom) enjoyed the video :) keep it up!
I think we should ban all official Nintendo Gamecube controllers as they're all too good, pricey and hard to find now. The gamestop controller with turbo off should be the only legal controller for melee.
I had one of those when I was little, a white one. It was my first experience with a controller just wearing out and breaking over time. It was heartbreaking
In pal fox has a part of the upsmash that is weak, unlike ntsc where (outside of the back hitbox) it's all the strong hitbox. So in that clip he hit the weak part.
@@Meman154 yeah my b. I heard it from someone a long time ago and they were wrong. It's just modded. The only difference with upsmash is it's damage done is lowered and base knock back plus knock back growth is lowered.
Then you might risk making reductive changes and putting an artificial ceiling on everybody. The WORST CG controller might be legitimately unusable. I think maybe it's better to target average or slightly above average hardware, make all controllers work as if they were decent but not absolutely perfect
@@rumfordc making certain techs impossible would actually make players worse As the video said, there are just some things most controllers can never do
1.0.3 wasn't legalize only because of Hax's evidence.zip2. People completely ignored it even though it's the future of the game. It would be in a healthier state
That's just true honestly. Tap jump is one of the few things I think Is just straight up a bad mechanic to not be able to turn off and I've been playing for years. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise they are the same people who didn't want ucf
@@zoobnash Basically the community made BOXX controllers legal because everyone thought they were medically necessary cus of the melee gives you arthritis memes. Which isnt even true keyboards can cause just as bad hand issues its all down to posture and grip/pressure. Now everyone wants to implement 1.03 without thinking because it would be evening the playing field with controller users vs boxx users. When in reality we have no idea what the consequences of this change will be on the meta and 1.03 is a lot bigger of changes then UCF ever was. IMO BOXX needs to be banned until there's a real team of people to figure out whats fair or not like an actual democratic board. Then balance the gamecube controllers around that. The BOXX can do things like triple SDI pivot tilts these things are super scary but havent really effected the meta because theres not that many good boxx players yet but allowing every gamecube controller player like Zain and Cody to be able to those things more consistent would be fucking WACKY it might be sick it might be lame. Shit just needs tested holy shit I wrote a lot
@@h3ck774 yeah Idk about that controllers giving you arthritis thing. If you’re doing weird claw grips or whatever then sure, but most games that make me put both hands on the keyboard have me feeling the carpal tunnel coming on after about 10 minutes. I can’t imagine it being better for you.
So, long as Nintendo didn't c&d us for using 1.03 I don't see a single reason why we shouldn't. It wouldn't even put controller makers/modders/enjoyers out of business people would still want cosmetic mods, people would still want notches, people would still want capacitor mods, people would still need new/refurbished controllers (there is a bit of a drought on new ones). As far as I can tell the only reason people wouldn't want it aside from uncle nintendo would be I guess selfishness or elitism, why wouldn't we want as many people to be able to play as well as they can? It's good for competition and it's not like you'll suddenly just have some genie playing the game for you, you still need to learn to play and learn mountains of tech.
@@christomanci def just wanted to go back to UCF and wanted a team of real people to figure shit out he prolly made this after watching IBDWs vid on it.
Nothing showecased makes me want to swap controllers yet. But maybe, modifying it to maintain the left stick being good. On Luigi, how will he get mid-way wavedashes? It might be less good for Luigi to be played on a boxx. And the weird mod/aspect i am doing?! It's likely i cannot program it with "1.3". So i agree in general, but things sure get very specific per main played. Not just the same 4 that are popular and played to death in the meta.
I see where you're going, but I don't think that 1.03 actually levels the standard GCC to the advantages that goomwaves and digital controllers have. 1.03 does not give standard controllers access to any angles other than perfect WD. Firefox angles are still notch/boxx exclusive. Notched controllers can have even steeper angles than the boxx, though I think that's fine since the boxx has greater consistency. The other thing not mentioned here is that PG controllers are affordable and come with advantages like back button jumping, which if the buttons are comfortable is probably superior or on parr with Z jumping. Remapping will also allow Z jumping on those too. Pivot up-tilt I'm less sure about. While Zhu did demonstrate (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it's possible on GCC with some consistency, I'm unsure if the PG controller will make that more or less doable. Also, the end of this video is straight up misleading. Digital controllers and Goomwaves are NOT on par with what is possible in 1.03. Neither have perfect wavedashes and both require pivot timings for tilt-out-of-dash. Neither controller has dedicated tilt buttons either. Even on digital controllers you need to time the modifier button to do pivot tilts. The real problem here is notches and the solution is for them to become affordable. Again, that stretch goal on the PG controller along with the replaceable stick gates seems to fix that too. A standard current gen controller is 60-75 dollars. The gap between that and a PG controller isn't so large that I think it's unreasonable to make the PG controller an entry point to the game, especially considering the value of the controller is partly that it is PC compatible. I'll take 1.03 stage-music options though. That seems sick
If its between 1.02 and the current controller environment and 1.03 i do not care about minor balance bullshit when its acceptable to objectively buy advantage, which is gatekept by supply, connections and money. Its a joke and we aught to do away with it entirely through software. Box and controller can be different in feel and capability on some levels. But box 1 and box 2 or controller 1 vs controller 2? Absolutely not
@@Apocobat People with more money will always have an advantage because hardware evolves and to be able to use state of the art hardware you need money.
I can really appreciate the way you carefully crafted all of your rationale before making any mention of the fact that it's Hax's solution. This is the clear logical successor to UCF and we really shouldn't let the controversy surrounding him stop us from evaluating this as a real solution!
I'm not sure how talked about this subject is as a whole because I don't keep up with smash these days, but as an old fan of Leffen, I can confidently say that on his streams he's talked about controllers and their differences as well as testing out new controllers with different schemes publicly. So even if there isn't a whole lot of information out there, I appreciate that Leffen didn't hide this information from his viewers.
@@rumfordc That's just not true. A lot of the really nice, expensive controllers just look like 3rd party GameCube controllers. Storytime: tldr; I wanted to play in some local tournaments and nobody online or in person informed me about the differences in controllers and I played stock GC controller. Didn't find out til a little while after I stopped playing. Some time ago I tried getting into Melee myself, my goal was never to win EVO or anything but I wanted to improve and compete at local tourneys. As a beginner to the scene and a late starter at that (This was maybe 5 or 6 years ago), I was unaware that people were using hardware that gave them a competitive advantage, as I was simply using an old fashioned GameCube controller. Not only was I not aware of it but my initial reaction was one of awe because many, many games would ban the use of modified controllers that give you a competitive edge with varying levels of tolerance. I'm not saying this information made a difference for me as I'm not so into competing that I want to spend a lot of money on a super nice controller or use an entirely different one altogether, but if you're an aspiring pro, not being aware of this kind of information can hinder your performance. Gamers will do anything for a competitive edge and some people love sharing this information and pushing their community forwards while others will do their best to keep it a secret as it's only their advantage and not anyone else's. Personally I just never encountered anyone in person or online who shared such information with me until maybe 2 or 3 years ago, about a year after I lost interest in playing.
I'd ban using digital inputs for the analog stick. Not too sure about how goomwaves affect easier uptilts and change calibration settings, but that should probably be banned too. Button remapping is fine
Banning digital inputs doesn't exactly solve it. If we have a mod, it should simply make every input a bit more realistic and level the playing field to what it was like before people figured out buying better controllers gave an advantage. Otherwise people will just use analog inputs that are essentially digital in their execution
It makes you wonder: I play Smash Ultimate (online, not really competitive). On the Switch we all have different control styles--single joycon, double joycon, different makes & models of pro controllers, gamecube controllers, custom controllers etc. Around here we're USED to people paying for a competitive advantage in the controllers they use, because if you're wielding joycons out of the box you're screwed! (perfectly balanced, as Nintendo intended) Heck, in Ultimate we pay money to have better characters so we can win tournaments! Pyra/Mythra, Steve, Joker, Kazuya, the list goes on. Personally I bought a pro controller with a custom set of directional notches on the sticks so I can perform tilt attacks better. Not better than other players mind you; just on par with anyone using a gamecube controller, because it's a glaring advantage gamecube controllers have over every other. In Melee there's only one controller, no official patches & no DLC. It feels...different using a modified controller in Melee you know? It's supposed to be the pure, raw, classic fighting game that's been unstained by the way things work in the modern gaming scene. That's the beauty of it, and I recognize that even if I haven't played it since I was a kid. I hope that in the chase for #1, the pros don't forget the reasons they fell in love with the game in the first place.
Have you considered that maybe the Melee community's love for the game is so deep that they've pushed for controllers and hardware that pushes the level of consistent inputs to new heights? I would find it hard to believe that these super expensive controllers make much of a difference except at the highest levels of play (which is a tiny fraction of the players). The parallel example in my mind is that a mediocre guitar player could play on a really cheap guitar or a super expensive one-the result will not really change all that much. I feel as though this easily applies to smashers.
I just wish someone would make like quality gccs that weren’t as inaccurate if that’s possible. Hell just make a controller that’s is gcc like with better hardware
I can't wait to hear the arguments against this that are just "I broke my hand and spent $399 on a controller to play the best I can, what do you mean you don't want to?"
I think the answer is a 1.03 without the perfect wavedash and first frame of sdi features. Imagine playing on unranked and hitting consisting up throw and all the stuff like that
Arcade style box controllers have been staple in just about every fighting game. No wonder Smash isn't considered a fighting game when people complain. (Edgy joke, but considering people get arthritis with gamecube controllers, I support it.)
GameCube controllers are perfectly ergonomic ask any specialist. Its all down to posture BOXX controllers literally have the potential to be worse for your hands. Its all about posture and grip strength and how long you play without rest what else you do with your hands etc. But there is no reason that playing melee should give someone hand issues if they play with decent posture and arnt playing 6 hours no breaks. Go see a massage therapist or a chiropractor. We will see boxx controller players having hand issues just like people who type all day like software devs get hand issues.
But BOXX users have bitched and moaned so hard that we made a gigantic decision to make them legal without any research simply cus we thought it was a medical necessity which isn't even true. There might be a select few out there who truly do need it but it just being legal sets such a bad precedent is triple sdi gonna be normal now? That would be fucking stupid so are C stick tilts Shiek becomes absolutely fucking bonkers and your gonna have zain pivot tilting
@@h3ck774 I would trust the sources of top players who have experience with prolonged sessions. As this only affects tournament players, it is not for the casual player to decide what is true. Multiple sources on the topic. Hax who does suffer from the usage of gcn controllers. Specifically invents a box to help. The FGC uses box controllers for prolonged hours as well, box controllers are not a new concept. Leffen who uses both gcn and box specifically states that the box strains a specifically different part of the hand compared to the gcn. Since both strain different parts of the hand, Leffen actually recommends swapping between controllers for prolonged usage.
This is basically why I'm never going to get into Melee myself, Even though I'll always enjoy it as a spectator, I'll never want to spend the extra money on a controller that lets me play at _equal_ level. Also, can I mention how There's a guy going around using the smash box in Ultimate tournaments... and actually doing well? Apparently it gives him the disadvantage of having to commit harder than normal, but being a low tier scrublord myself I don't see it as much.
i dont even play melee but banger video, did a good job of explaining things so an Ult noob like me can understand :) ALSO the drum beat in the back was fucking sick
solid vid but your analogy to sumo and arched bench is not actually representative, I think, of your point. Sumo is a more technical lift. it harder to lead slack and get the correct activation chain at the correct tempo than it is on conventional. Pulling conventional let's you grab the bar and rip, execution is easier to not fuck up, thus the switch to a sumo pull does not make the lift easier exclusively. I think what distinguishes a sumo pull from a super arched bench is that there is a reasonable limit (your feet physically cannot go past the plates) when deadlifting, but a similar argument as above can be made for high arch benches since having the flexibility and control over one's body in order to create a high arch and maintain a powerful position while lifting is a harder task than benching flat back.
It's cobbled together from a drum sample pack I got from this fella: ua-cam.com/users/JakeReedmusic I've used a dimsunk track in another video, though.
they need to make a melee controller that plugs into your brain and reads your desired inputs
that would make the game so much more boring imo
Absolutely, no Jon’s
What in the Sao
According to Smash Summit's "History of Smash," UCF will become a neural implant next year
Wait till you find out your hands are plugged into your brain
"Melee's meta continues to develop" *shows falco getting gimped by marth on Yoshi's* *shows falco getting gimped by marth on Yoshi's but in hd*
That wizzy joke had me rolling
WHAAAAAT
In?
for me it was the hbox voice clip
should've tech'd in place, now Wizzy's on your ass!
He can cover it on reaction tho. Your best bet is to miss tech as then tech behind him to test his controller's dashback out of crouch ability
im really sad the wizzy bit didn't contiune, something about reaction tech chasing instead of zain's pivots imo
he already covered wizzy reaction tech chasing when he said wizzy learned how to play lame
@@wiibur I think the point of that clip was that he was crouch canceling the getup attack, which means that during a tech situation he gets to sit point-blank and easily cover every single wakeup option without inhuman reaction times.
@@meethepie Pretty sure it's really hard to react to all the different tech options in that scenario. Tech in place is about 30 while the rolls are around 40, but the start of the animation is ambiguous and you need enough time to actually perform your punish. You have to be absolutely sure you correctly recognized their tech option or you eat a get up attack or run the wrong way and can't correct (in some cases maybe you can)
"hax released the smash box"
*Shows Frame One*
>Hax made the B0xx not smash box
lmfao this is good
*Video by Dan Salvato*
"Credit: Toby Fox"
I do definitely think the "rich people have an advantage" is detrimental to any competitive scene
It's not something to be encouraged but rich people will always have an advantage in any competition.
A person who doesn't have to worry about their next paycheck can attend more events and get more practice against better players. That isn't cheating and it isn't unfair and it doesn't diminish the game for other people. But it's an absolutely massive advantage.
This is actually REALLY good satire
blurry out-of-focus wobbling footage is my new favorite thing ever
Soon… *soon bowser will be viable…* first 1.03, then 1.04, then 1.05, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, until finally…
MELEE 2.
the meta-defining strategy, or how wizzy discovered nothingness, made light, then techchased one atom at a time to build the universe.
While I fundamentally agree with the idea of gameplay being accessible, I can't but disagree with the conclusion. The only real answer is the software bandwagon, because there's a crucial bit missing: stock controllers themselves are a lottery. That's what initially drove controller innovation and is still the core difference, even though they're so feature-packed it's hard to see.
Stock controllers have everything from uneven pode, misaligned stickboxes, snapback to polling nulls. Others are, with few exceptions worth discussing, goomwaves. Despite that, analog controllers still deteriorate.
We can remove many common issues for essentially free for everyone via software, so you don't have to play the controller metagame that hard. Controllers will still deteriorate, but everyone has 1.0 cardinals and consistent dashback ooC.
Optimal gameplay is so deep in TAS-territory, that neglecting consistency over hardware purity is silly.
The only controller-related topic that I think warrants a legality discussion and how enhanced non-boxx controllers are reaching feature parity - and no, the answer wont be dental floss -, is (boxxed) auto-asdi.
So no, there's no "slippery slope", never was. There's only old problems and new solutions that sometimes become new problems.
(btw, this coming from a competitive powerlifter, casually shitting on sumo is even more ridiculous than the rom)
enjoyed the video :) keep it up!
Bravo to your comment.
claw for auto asdi. claw is busted as fuck and nobody talks about it
I think we should ban all official Nintendo Gamecube controllers as they're all too good, pricey and hard to find now. The gamestop controller with turbo off should be the only legal controller for melee.
That is one dystopian hell
I had one of those when I was little, a white one. It was my first experience with a controller just wearing out and breaking over time. It was heartbreaking
madcatz only
What I wanna know is why this mans randomly slipped a Brawl clip into the video
Because they use the same controllers in competitive play.
@@dracoshield2344 it was a joke
@@lagspike7763 man what a shit fucking joke, makes it seem unironic
Such a classy and clever way to explain the problems melee faces in todays meta. Bravo, a great video
I don't know why I actually expected this video to be about the controller on the thumbnail
Fully charged PAL fox upsmash not nearly killing puff at 150 already had me rolling dont know why
In pal fox has a part of the upsmash that is weak, unlike ntsc where (outside of the back hitbox) it's all the strong hitbox. So in that clip he hit the weak part.
@@uno_SSBM I thought that was modded lol
@@Bladieblah it is, that guy is just making shit up
@@uno_SSBM "My source is I made it the fuck up"
@@Meman154 yeah my b. I heard it from someone a long time ago and they were wrong. It's just modded. The only difference with upsmash is it's damage done is lowered and base knock back plus knock back growth is lowered.
Simple, straightforward argument for software mod. well done.
I cant tell if this is ironic or not
1.03 should just make every controller perform like the worst controller
Then you might risk making reductive changes and putting an artificial ceiling on everybody.
The WORST CG controller might be legitimately unusable. I think maybe it's better to target average or slightly above average hardware, make all controllers work as if they were decent but not absolutely perfect
@@puppieslovies nope make the controllers bad so the players have to git gud
@@rumfordc making certain techs impossible would actually make players worse
As the video said, there are just some things most controllers can never do
@@puppieslovies nope git gud or go home as my pappy used to say dash dance is for nerds
@@rumfordc you obviously do not play competitive melee
The greatest MGEE of all time is Hbox's sunglasses. He is like a completely different player when he has shades equipped.
Honestly the d-pad controller on the thumbnail would be a nice controller in ultimate for the shotos
This video good as hell, do more stuff like this for real
1.0.3 wasn't legalize only because of Hax's evidence.zip2. People completely ignored it even though it's the future of the game. It would be in a healthier state
Please just make tap jump togglable that would fix box up tilts and make the game better in my humble opinion
That's just true honestly. Tap jump is one of the few things I think Is just straight up a bad mechanic to not be able to turn off and I've been playing for years. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise they are the same people who didn't want ucf
This video is going over so many peoples heads. This is a fantastic bit of satire and your wit has been noted.
Damn, I didn't know enough about the subject to be able to tell. Mind giving me the gist?
@@zoobnash Basically the community made BOXX controllers legal because everyone thought they were medically necessary cus of the melee gives you arthritis memes. Which isnt even true keyboards can cause just as bad hand issues its all down to posture and grip/pressure. Now everyone wants to implement 1.03 without thinking because it would be evening the playing field with controller users vs boxx users. When in reality we have no idea what the consequences of this change will be on the meta and 1.03 is a lot bigger of changes then UCF ever was. IMO BOXX needs to be banned until there's a real team of people to figure out whats fair or not like an actual democratic board. Then balance the gamecube controllers around that. The BOXX can do things like triple SDI pivot tilts these things are super scary but havent really effected the meta because theres not that many good boxx players yet but allowing every gamecube controller player like Zain and Cody to be able to those things more consistent would be fucking WACKY it might be sick it might be lame. Shit just needs tested holy shit I wrote a lot
@@h3ck774 yeah Idk about that controllers giving you arthritis thing. If you’re doing weird claw grips or whatever then sure, but most games that make me put both hands on the keyboard have me feeling the carpal tunnel coming on after about 10 minutes. I can’t imagine it being better for you.
@@h3ck774 Thanks
Before Slippy, we had sloppy
"Fucking fuck"
- Hbox
1.03 is fun I think everyone should switch
That Bobby Green vs Fiziev UFC fight clip tho 🤝🏻🤝🏻🤝🏻
So, long as Nintendo didn't c&d us for using 1.03 I don't see a single reason why we shouldn't. It wouldn't even put controller makers/modders/enjoyers out of business people would still want cosmetic mods, people would still want notches, people would still want capacitor mods, people would still need new/refurbished controllers (there is a bit of a drought on new ones). As far as I can tell the only reason people wouldn't want it aside from uncle nintendo would be I guess selfishness or elitism, why wouldn't we want as many people to be able to play as well as they can? It's good for competition and it's not like you'll suddenly just have some genie playing the game for you, you still need to learn to play and learn mountains of tech.
i have no clue what side this guy is on lmao
He's definitely pro-software-mod.
@@tree2992 thats why he has a dislike in the 1.03 video
despite not even playing melee, i agree with everything youre saying because youre funny
Pretty sure we don't use the European "update" because it is not common in the US. Probably not related to how good fox is.
Just have everyone play on the Resident Evil Chainsaw controller.
Problem solved.
The weird part is, the way you presented the video, I don't know what you'd choose
1.03 is what hed choose
@@christomanci funny enough I got the impression he wanted to ban "boxxwaves" since he seems to imply that MGEE will crop up again.
@@christomanci def just wanted to go back to UCF and wanted a team of real people to figure shit out he prolly made this after watching IBDWs vid on it.
Nothing showecased makes me want to swap controllers yet. But maybe, modifying it to maintain the left stick being good. On Luigi, how will he get mid-way wavedashes? It might be less good for Luigi to be played on a boxx. And the weird mod/aspect i am doing?! It's likely i cannot program it with "1.3". So i agree in general, but things sure get very specific per main played. Not just the same 4 that are popular and played to death in the meta.
You can still do all lengths of wavedashes, it just makes the perfect wavedash easier by making the zone slightly larger
the casual dash of misinformation was delightful.
where?
>barges in
>makes claim
>refuses to elaborate
>leaves
"like when wizzy discovered sdi"
"hax released the smashbox"
oh, also the image of a frame 1 controller which is neither the smashbox nor the boxx
0:09 wow is that real?? there's no way PAL actually nerf'd fox that hard
Surprisingly yeah, it's real. I actually forgot about this because no one I know even talks about it.
Duuude, Fox can waveshine Marth and meteor cancel his down air in pal, it’s way better there
Fox can’t waveshine marth in PAL, marth is put into knockdown when he gets shined which makes it way harder for fox to followup.
This is a really really interesting video with an amazing ending, an ending so good In fact I really want to try 1.03 now.
I was not looking for this video yet it was the perfect video
So for a fair playing field in smash we must ban capitalism.
this but only allow dk bongos
sequel: the rise of the phob
This is such a good vid why doesn’t this guy get more love
I see where you're going, but I don't think that 1.03 actually levels the standard GCC to the advantages that goomwaves and digital controllers have. 1.03 does not give standard controllers access to any angles other than perfect WD. Firefox angles are still notch/boxx exclusive. Notched controllers can have even steeper angles than the boxx, though I think that's fine since the boxx has greater consistency. The other thing not mentioned here is that PG controllers are affordable and come with advantages like back button jumping, which if the buttons are comfortable is probably superior or on parr with Z jumping. Remapping will also allow Z jumping on those too. Pivot up-tilt I'm less sure about. While Zhu did demonstrate (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it's possible on GCC with some consistency, I'm unsure if the PG controller will make that more or less doable.
Also, the end of this video is straight up misleading. Digital controllers and Goomwaves are NOT on par with what is possible in 1.03. Neither have perfect wavedashes and both require pivot timings for tilt-out-of-dash. Neither controller has dedicated tilt buttons either. Even on digital controllers you need to time the modifier button to do pivot tilts.
The real problem here is notches and the solution is for them to become affordable. Again, that stretch goal on the PG controller along with the replaceable stick gates seems to fix that too. A standard current gen controller is 60-75 dollars. The gap between that and a PG controller isn't so large that I think it's unreasonable to make the PG controller an entry point to the game, especially considering the value of the controller is partly that it is PC compatible.
I'll take 1.03 stage-music options though. That seems sick
1.03 does way more then perfect wavedash, I recommend watching Haxs catalog of videos on 1.03 on 2x speed
There is no Panda controller, won't be for a while.
If its between 1.02 and the current controller environment and 1.03 i do not care about minor balance bullshit when its acceptable to objectively buy advantage, which is gatekept by supply, connections and money. Its a joke and we aught to do away with it entirely through software. Box and controller can be different in feel and capability on some levels. But box 1 and box 2 or controller 1 vs controller 2? Absolutely not
Aren't panda controllers in undetermined production hiatus?
@@Apocobat People with more money will always have an advantage because hardware evolves and to be able to use state of the art hardware you need money.
As a sumo puller you hurt me with the lifting analogy. but funny video overall, good work!
Thats on you bud
I can really appreciate the way you carefully crafted all of your rationale before making any mention of the fact that it's Hax's solution. This is the clear logical successor to UCF and we really shouldn't let the controversy surrounding him stop us from evaluating this as a real solution!
God this video is so drowned in irony i cant even tell if the comments are serious
@@h3ck774 elaborate
UCF was made with vanilla controllers in mind 1.03 is not
@@jesusalc1421 ... but its a mod for vanilla controllers?
0:10 EX-FUCKING-SCUSE ME? DAMN I NEVER KNEW PAL NERFED FOX UP SMASH THAT HARD OH MY GOD
PAL Fox is a disgrace lol he's not close to be SS there.
this is one of the greatest melee shitposts i've seen in a while. great stuff
I'm not sure how talked about this subject is as a whole because I don't keep up with smash these days, but as an old fan of Leffen, I can confidently say that on his streams he's talked about controllers and their differences as well as testing out new controllers with different schemes publicly. So even if there isn't a whole lot of information out there, I appreciate that Leffen didn't hide this information from his viewers.
what information? anyone can find the differences between the controllers.
@@rumfordc That's just not true. A lot of the really nice, expensive controllers just look like 3rd party GameCube controllers.
Storytime:
tldr; I wanted to play in some local tournaments and nobody online or in person informed me about the differences in controllers and I played stock GC controller. Didn't find out til a little while after I stopped playing.
Some time ago I tried getting into Melee myself, my goal was never to win EVO or anything but I wanted to improve and compete at local tourneys. As a beginner to the scene and a late starter at that (This was maybe 5 or 6 years ago), I was unaware that people were using hardware that gave them a competitive advantage, as I was simply using an old fashioned GameCube controller. Not only was I not aware of it but my initial reaction was one of awe because many, many games would ban the use of modified controllers that give you a competitive edge with varying levels of tolerance. I'm not saying this information made a difference for me as I'm not so into competing that I want to spend a lot of money on a super nice controller or use an entirely different one altogether, but if you're an aspiring pro, not being aware of this kind of information can hinder your performance. Gamers will do anything for a competitive edge and some people love sharing this information and pushing their community forwards while others will do their best to keep it a secret as it's only their advantage and not anyone else's. Personally I just never encountered anyone in person or online who shared such information with me until maybe 2 or 3 years ago, about a year after I lost interest in playing.
I thought the original Smash Box was made by Hit Box.
Samus just casually does a spin dash at 4:11
Guess she was the sonic we were looking for all along
Damn after watching this video I'm shocked you don't even have 1000 subs yet man. Good content, keep up the consistency:)
This is great video and I wish there was more of it.
People always justify the prices for custom controllers being like 2-400 and I'm like fuuuuuuck dude whatever that's just too much for a controller
1.0 cardinals should have nothing to do with "perfect wavedashing", right? It's perfect wavelands that use full left/right cardinals.
I'd ban using digital inputs for the analog stick. Not too sure about how goomwaves affect easier uptilts and change calibration settings, but that should probably be banned too. Button remapping is fine
Banning digital inputs doesn't exactly solve it. If we have a mod, it should simply make every input a bit more realistic and level the playing field to what it was like before people figured out buying better controllers gave an advantage. Otherwise people will just use analog inputs that are essentially digital in their execution
It makes you wonder: I play Smash Ultimate (online, not really competitive). On the Switch we all have different control styles--single joycon, double joycon, different makes & models of pro controllers, gamecube controllers, custom controllers etc. Around here we're USED to people paying for a competitive advantage in the controllers they use, because if you're wielding joycons out of the box you're screwed! (perfectly balanced, as Nintendo intended) Heck, in Ultimate we pay money to have better characters so we can win tournaments! Pyra/Mythra, Steve, Joker, Kazuya, the list goes on. Personally I bought a pro controller with a custom set of directional notches on the sticks so I can perform tilt attacks better. Not better than other players mind you; just on par with anyone using a gamecube controller, because it's a glaring advantage gamecube controllers have over every other. In Melee there's only one controller, no official patches & no DLC. It feels...different using a modified controller in Melee you know? It's supposed to be the pure, raw, classic fighting game that's been unstained by the way things work in the modern gaming scene. That's the beauty of it, and I recognize that even if I haven't played it since I was a kid. I hope that in the chase for #1, the pros don't forget the reasons they fell in love with the game in the first place.
Have you considered that maybe the Melee community's love for the game is so deep that they've pushed for controllers and hardware that pushes the level of consistent inputs to new heights? I would find it hard to believe that these super expensive controllers make much of a difference except at the highest levels of play (which is a tiny fraction of the players).
The parallel example in my mind is that a mediocre guitar player could play on a really cheap guitar or a super expensive one-the result will not really change all that much. I feel as though this easily applies to smashers.
What a swaggy video. I feel like I got cooler while watching it.
Good video. One important detail is that you still need to relearn most things if your going to use the boxx. Positives and negatives aside
Nice touch with the dislike on the 1.03 video LMAO
Pretty sad people being against a better version of the game. Oh well
I miss those old controllers
I just wish someone would make like quality gccs that weren’t as inaccurate if that’s possible. Hell just make a controller that’s is gcc like with better hardware
Eventually we’ll just have a single button that gets an AI to play the game for you at the highest possible level
i know what that guy was doing.. there's an inclined bench made specifically for that.
Yo this editing is smooth
aw man i wanted to see a real dpad only controller
I can't wait to hear the arguments against this that are just "I broke my hand and spent $399 on a controller to play the best I can, what do you mean you don't want to?"
I think the answer is a 1.03 without the perfect wavedash and first frame of sdi features. Imagine playing on unranked and hitting consisting up throw and all the stuff like that
this is still one of the funniest melee videos
3:10
>stock footage of Frame1
"Hax released the Smash Box"
(Credit: [Hitbox] Gravy)
This triggered my fight-or-flight "Um, actually" reflex
HTangl V2 baby.
good vid
Add a buffer too
I like the drum machine
And now this is happening again with z jumping because turns out editing your controls might be good actually
Arcade style box controllers have been staple in just about every fighting game.
No wonder Smash isn't considered a fighting game when people complain.
(Edgy joke, but considering people get arthritis with gamecube controllers, I support it.)
GameCube controllers are perfectly ergonomic ask any specialist. Its all down to posture BOXX controllers literally have the potential to be worse for your hands. Its all about posture and grip strength and how long you play without rest what else you do with your hands etc. But there is no reason that playing melee should give someone hand issues if they play with decent posture and arnt playing 6 hours no breaks. Go see a massage therapist or a chiropractor. We will see boxx controller players having hand issues just like people who type all day like software devs get hand issues.
But BOXX users have bitched and moaned so hard that we made a gigantic decision to make them legal without any research simply cus we thought it was a medical necessity which isn't even true. There might be a select few out there who truly do need it but it just being legal sets such a bad precedent is triple sdi gonna be normal now? That would be fucking stupid so are C stick tilts Shiek becomes absolutely fucking bonkers and your gonna have zain pivot tilting
@@h3ck774
I would trust the sources of top players who have experience with prolonged sessions.
As this only affects tournament players, it is not for the casual player to decide what is true.
Multiple sources on the topic.
Hax who does suffer from the usage of gcn controllers. Specifically invents a box to help.
The FGC uses box controllers for prolonged hours as well, box controllers are not a new concept.
Leffen who uses both gcn and box specifically states that the box strains a specifically different part of the hand compared to the gcn.
Since both strain different parts of the hand, Leffen actually recommends swapping between controllers for prolonged usage.
@@h3ck774 if they were "perfectly ergonomic" the other types of controllers wouldn't exist
Super smash bros mgee
excellent video
Hax Released the 'Smashbox', while showing the F1 was really a banger.
Lmao the hax video is disliked. Nobody is going to understand the joke.
This is basically why I'm never going to get into Melee myself, Even though I'll always enjoy it as a spectator, I'll never want to spend the extra money on a controller that lets me play at _equal_ level.
Also, can I mention how There's a guy going around using the smash box in Ultimate tournaments... and actually doing well? Apparently it gives him the disadvantage of having to commit harder than normal, but being a low tier scrublord myself I don't see it as much.
This is a fantastic video.
i dont even play melee but banger video, did a good job of explaining things so an Ult noob like me can understand :)
ALSO the drum beat in the back was fucking sick
Yeah I'd probably ban the box controller and stick to ucf. Last I looked into amashbox it was a little sus to me.
That’s like banning fight sticks in a SF tournament
there will still be OP GCC's so its better to just make 1.03 standard. banning just box controllers is like putting a band-aid on a huge gaping wound.
good content sir
Fire content
1.03 is the future
As purely a spectator, MGEE can be kind of cool to watch...
Great video
Very good video
Wizzy jokes are the best.
Credit: CLM's villian
LOL
This video pretty nice😳
I find funny that some top players cry ao much about the boxx calling it a cheating controller when they play on a goomwave
I can’t tell if this video is a joke or not and this is why I will never take melee seriously. $400 entry fees.
interesting vid! got yourself a sub :)
solid vid but your analogy to sumo and arched bench is not actually representative, I think, of your point. Sumo is a more technical lift. it harder to lead slack and get the correct activation chain at the correct tempo than it is on conventional. Pulling conventional let's you grab the bar and rip, execution is easier to not fuck up, thus the switch to a sumo pull does not make the lift easier exclusively. I think what distinguishes a sumo pull from a super arched bench is that there is a reasonable limit (your feet physically cannot go past the plates) when deadlifting, but a similar argument as above can be made for high arch benches since having the flexibility and control over one's body in order to create a high arch and maintain a powerful position while lifting is a harder task than benching flat back.
Thanks man, good luck at your next equipped powerlifting meet.
@@darshedup equipped and raw lifts are done at the same meet, but regardless I do not compete equipped
@@darshedup damn that ratio tho...
What did he say? It made Fox what? 0:11
a worse character
it's fun but most younger kids seem to cheat and kind of ruins the whole thing
genius video
Is this drum track from dimsunk?
It's cobbled together from a drum sample pack I got from this fella: ua-cam.com/users/JakeReedmusic
I've used a dimsunk track in another video, though.
fire fucking video