Until he told me to clear my mind of naughty thoughts after that comment I didn't have anything naughty in my mind that I needed to clear! Which I guess is a bit sad, or maybe not.
@@calebsilvergleid9797 not yet, that's the joke. But he does say the money is in an account and it is being worked on. But, Jesus, some people have died in the meantime. He'll have to find the living relatives. :-D
Precisely what I was thinking. No matter whether it's dendrochronology or radiocarbon dating, all it proves is that this particular piece of wood was harvested around date x. It says nothing about the wider structure that it was a part of.
Exactly, and since romans rebuilt the port, I thought maybe they just took pieces they already had in another port and stuck them to the carthaginian port way later, making it seem they're much older than they really are.
Scipio also had quite a few enemies and rivals in Rome. Sure he must have been quite popular and maybe the Romans had an extraordinarily cohesive political climate. But I still very much doubt that All of Scipios rivals could have been left in the dark over a falsification of such scale. And if they knew about the fraud, to me atleast, it seems very unlikely that they would have kept quiet about it.
@@indianhistorybuff The Scipio family was still very powerful for quite some time after the Punic Wars though (one of them was a general in the civil war with Caesar, for example), and I imagine they'd have something to say about it.
@@nathanielwilliams3891 He fought with Pompey and was in fact later the leader of the pompeian faction, despite Labienus had a lot more of experience and skill. However, he only had the name and the legend that "None Scipio could be ever defeated in Africa", so Ceaser hired as legatus another minor Scipio. My point is: Scipios in that time only had a prestigious nomen, but barely real power. And with the lots of enemies in Rome, I simply don't get how they could make that conspiracy and inventing or depicting thousand and thousand of men fighting. Scipio Africanus was exiled and with the furious hate against him of Cato, who even tried damnatio memoriae, so such conspiracy would be too juicy to let it pass by.
Another argument regarding the elephants which I recently came across: The elephants Hannibal used at Zama may have been badly trained, since the Carthaginians may have "scraped the barrel" to provide Hannibal with enough troops, and maybe they simply did not have enough trained elephants and used some hastily trained ones - maybe even with less well-trained mahoots who are even less likely to put them down. Another interesting note regarding elephants: when you make your graphic novel, maybe try to take into account that the elephants the Carthaginians mostly seem to have used were, possibly, the North African elephant (loxodonta africana pharaoensis), which seems to have been a small breed of elephant and become extinct in Roman times. There is a fair chance that the Carthaginians would have used these at Zama, not the much larger sub-Saharan specimens. There is, however, also a good chance that the elephants were in fact Indian ones brought over all the way from Asia - which is reinforced by the mention of Indian mahoots.
Wouldn't a less-trained mahoot with not much more than a passing familiarity with the elephant be _more_ likely to take it down? The Romans by that time had had a lot of time for strategizing and had already come up with a strategy involving needling the elephant with javelins. Wouldn't it be more probable that the mahoot was simply dead because the first thing the javelineers were instructed to do was to kill the mahoot? That's at least what my dad told me, but while he was a historian, it was not really his field of expertise. He did have a general interest in Roman history, though. Also, I think you meant Zama instead of Cannae in your second sentence.
Thanks for the tip, I edited it :) Hm. I think an untrained mahoot would be less likely to take down his elephant; a true professional would, while noobs would be squeamish. I may be wrong, however.
+Ufthak1 the mahoots and elephants could have been conscripted from readily available labor stock. the mahoots could have had a tight bond with the animal which would have prevented them from killing them but would also explain the very poor performance as the labor stock would not have been trained as a war animal.
He is also a rather responsible adult kind of person, so I'd expect him to be more reasonable than the average youtuber who rise to fame all of a sudden and so don't know their limits. Let us see how far he can go. I honestly cant picture Lindy being burnt out about anything he wants to do, he really just appears very energetic and passionate about everything he does
Theory: A *zombie plague* emerged in Africa and the Carthaginians AND Romans teamed up to put down the hordes. Hannibal and his remaining forces returned to Carthage to secure the city against further attack, but brought the virus back with them. The infection reached critical levels in the Carthaginian empire. Frequent reports of it prompted Romans like Cato the Elder to urge the "purification" of the area ("Carthago delenda est!"). By the Third Punic War, Carthage had been so overrun with the undead that the Roman Empire had no choice but to annihilate the entire city and salt the earth.
I read a book with this exact scenario, except it was two armies fighting for / against Byzantium uniting to fight Zombies... Can't remember the title, sorry
Loyd, you mention livy several times but Polybius wrote about Zama much earlier (probably around 100 years before Livy given that he describes things all the way to 146 BC and died at 100 BC). Polybius was born on 200BC and had A LOT of contact with people people who lived through the II punic war, I'm no scholar but it seems bizarre to think that he would put such a blatant lie in his histories, specially given the fact that he was a greek historian.
Polybius was a friend of the scipio family. So he could have written about a “fake” battle to increase the scipio family’s prestige. If the battle is made up
@@gwh766 But he wrote about it when the events were too close to get away with it in the slightest,f it was fake. In Rome there was not the monopoly of knowledge, the literacy rate was very high, and Scipio was not the kind of "hero that all loved" that we tend to believe today. He was actually frowned upon. Marcellus, or Fabius, were example of Roman virtues. Scipio was more the youngster with a great talent and an even bigger mouth, that cultivated questionable friendships with foreign kings and chieftains.
I was especially intrigued by Lloyd's Inverse Monument Postulation: The Larger the Monument, the smaller the battle; with its logical extension that REALLY large and quantitative memorial monuments mean the battle never took place. And all this time I REALLY believed that WWII happened -- they won't fool me again... :)
World War Two definitely happened, but it was more of a global military parade than a fight. Certainly none of the major campaigns occurred on the scale that we're led to believe. Battle of Britain? A dogfight one August afternoon over Kent. Western desert? Petrol rationing and lots of fist-shaking across no man's land. Kursk? Didn't happen.
To be fair, all jokes/theories/facts aside, there is a huge column in Boulogne, France dedicated to Napoleon's Invasion of England. It's as tall as Nelson's column and just as grand, and has since been changed to commemorate the meeting of the generals there in 1805...
@@KrillLiberator another example, The bucket wars was fought with splashing water at each other. The Punic wars war actually a boat race, the England France wars was a banquet, and ww1 also just a steam car race. Don't let them foot you again
there are four men in a battle, one has a pommel, two has a spandau, three has a katana, and four has a bayonet. the battlefield is a giant viking shield and the referee is a berserker, who wins
the guy with the pommel sees the guy with the spandau as the biggest threat and ends him rightly, now weaponless the bayonet guy charges him and he runs away, falling off the edge of the shield. The katana guy then cleaves the bayonet guy in half, slicing straight through the bayonet, the man and the shield, sending him tumbling to his death. This sends the referee into a beserk frenzy and he runs round killing spectators until a guy four miles away picks hi off with a Bren gun while riding on a war elephant which is swimming across a river in France.
Pommel wins all. Hmmh... What if there was a Spandau that could use pommels as ammunitio- Oh god I just invented the apocalypse-weapon didn't I? A Spandau that shoots pommels and has a katana as a bayonet.
Another reason I've heard that commanders would put their veterans in the back was to help to discourage the younger, more inexperienced troops from breaking the line. At least that's how I heard the Greek phalanx was arranged. Just discovered your channel, awesome stuff!
Dante Alighieri, that was among the "fenditores", the first wave of knight to enter in battle, at Campaldino, is very adamant in that. He was a newbie, and newbies were sent ahead so that they could make their max effort before the horrors of the battlefield (dismembered bodies, the smell of blood and shit) could discourage them.
Bro,, you're just simply AWESOME.... I've watched sooo many of your videos & you encompass such an amazing swath of history while having a mastery of it.. While making it entertaining the whole while... Thank you & keep up the amazing work...
It's really nice to see a project such as this being so successful. With mainstream comics so mind-numbingly atrocious as they are currently and even the medium as a whole being rather stagnant and lifeless; This project shows that there's room still for some attempt and interest at producing and seeing something that might rise above the prevailing four-color mire. Here's hoping you get another 15K!
Wow, I am really glad you warned us not to run with scissors at the end! Since there wasn't a massive outbreak of scissor-related mutilations and defenestrations after posting this video, we can safely assume with absolute certainty that your warning saved countless of limbs, lives and livelihoods! Bloody brilliantly done, I must say.
There is a Roman monument in Tunisia called Kbor Klib. It overlooks a plain large enough to accommodate a battle between two large armies. It also dates to the time of the battle. Google Kbor Klib and Duncan Ross, the American archeologist who did the detective work to find it and identify it as the site of the Battle of Zama. I've been on the site, and the Tunisian Ministry of Antiquities has accepted the Kbor Klib monument as genuine.
Wikipedia also notes that most of the information comes from Polybius - a Greek, about a couple of decades later than the battle - but Lindy is only referencing Livy - a Roman, who wrote a couple centuries later.
Livy isn't the only source for the battle. Polybius writes about it and he was born 200 bc, one year after the war ended. Also, he was Greek and therefore might have less motivation for writing propaganda.
Many modern historians actually questioned Polybius' impartiality when it comes to matters pertaining the Scipiones, because he stated clearly that Scipio Africanus was his patron.
Uh, friend of the Scipio family or not (which comes as no surprise, since they were patrons of many in the city of Rome, hard not to be acquainted with them), Polybius was actually a very serious, rigorous historian. If you don't think the Battle of Zama occurred, then why not the Battle of Illipa four years before it in 206 BC? This was Scipio's greatest battle, not Zama, and it took place in southern Spain against Mago Barca, Hannibal's brother. It was the reason Rome was able to secure Iberia and kick the Carthaginians out. This is what happens with your leaky conspiracy theories: they're easy to disprove with the most basic related information.
I truly believe that had you been my history professor in my second year at YorkU my life would have taken a different and more satisfying track. But that was many decades of time ago and not worth thinking about. Keep up the excellent work! (And I will keep on following.)
"This is a monster of a video - possibly my longest ever." Funny to read that in contrast with the more than an hour long videos that can be found later on XD
Wives and children:"Well,well, tell us the story" Option 1: We waited around doing fuckall whilst a treaty was signed, we then went home. Option 2:We fought an awesome battle and I did some sweet ninja flips.
Something I find fascinating watching your videos... over 20 minutes and no cut... pretty rare among the youtubers discussing a topic I subscribed to...
Well, no. As Lloyd said, if it was forged, it was made during Livy's times, almost 200 years after the battle. So 20 years after, there was no forgery for Hannibal to dispute. And then, there was no Carthage to dispute.
@@FolgoreCZ what about Polybius? Did he not write about it? On the article Lindybeige posted on the video description they mentioned Polybius writing about it.
Will you eventually make something about Hannibal commanding the Seleucid navy? There's a lot of fun to be had with the vague descriptions of him launching snakes (I like to imagine he trained them to lie very straight and shot them from ballistas)
It's actually Hanniba'al, which means "Grace of Ba'al", as in the Canaanite/Phoenician deity(ies). In the Punic context, most likely Ba'al Hamon, to whom child sacrifices were fairly commonly made according to Greco-Roman sources. Just FYI
YOU CAN HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!: End the war how it likely actually happened, not with the glorious epic star wars harry potter azor ahai second coming of christ war for the dawn like it was described, but rather, with small but growing peace. THEN have the last chapter or whatever you're using with the roman leadership months/years later far away desiding they want to 'modify' the reality as they like for the glory of the empire. The with noble scholars designing the propaganda and writing the battle (great chance to self insert you as one of the roman scholars writing the story) as they wanted. Then you just finish the book with the battle as described! SO you get to write out the battle and have it be as awesome as possible! Now that would be awesome, and pretty fucking meta. People would love that!
This is a really neat idea, but it should be the other way around. Cutting to the battle after hearing it's a fabrication just makes the ending feel hollow - why read it? Better, ime, to have the battle in narrative, and then an ending scene in the time the histories were written with a centurion and a scholar. Where the centurion is generally skeptical the battle actually happened, and the scholar counters with something like "If Hannibal had never been defeated, would we really be Rome?" or something similar - to imply both that a.) it might have happened and b.) if it didn't, it would be necessary to lie about it.
Err, that should be *imo, for in my opinion, not experience. I do not actually have experience of writing historical fiction that's concerned enough with accuracy to want to address the potential of historical fabrication in narrative. (Probably not that many people do, actually, but lloyd is a good person to take it on!)
Of _course_ the Battle of Helm's Deep happened. Without that decisive victory over Bavmorda's army, Thulsa Doom never would have risked betraying Drizzt Do'Urden at the Red Wedding, and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser would have been in a right pickle then. (At least, that's how I remember it. It's possible my mind may have wandered a bit in history class.)
I take it your mind did wander a bit, there was a lull in the middle of the battle where Jon Snow crosses the Red Sea and parlayed with George Washington atop Mount Doom... History classes these days, really on the decline.
Lindy's always got a good psychological description of the mind set of the people and commanders,as well as a grasp of its relevance to situational awareness and technology, all done in a lay back yet knowledgeable format, keep it up!
Wow, such ignorance, the battle of helm's deep DID happen and the rohan won due to their elven allied and their mighty spandau. The spandau superiority over the uruk's bren was proven at this battle, unsubed.
not only that, but their superior number of troops carrying torches during the day to increase visibility (a habit gained from the same practice at home) gave them considerable advantage.
New to this channel, this is fantastic stuff. The graphic novel is going to be a great success, and I hope it spawns an entire series. Such a project with this writer and illustrator on Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon and the civil war - drool. So much great possibilities, but I hope they are prepared for a second printing (at least), as I think they are underestimating how popular this is going to be with a wide swath of people - history fans, fans of the channel, comic geeks like myself. Fantastic. Brilliant.
Lloyd, your timing for the "Don't, that's filth" statement perfectly lined up with my timing of typing a dirty joke in the comment section. I laughed pretty hard. On a more serious note, I'm happy to see you engaging with the Punic Wars, and the Battle of Zama in particular. I've long held that Hannibal wasn't near the genius he is made out to be, and that he may have actually been just short of an imbecile most of the time. The crossing of the Alps, in particular, strikes me as an action that a brilliant tactician/strategist wouldn't likely take. It's true, Hannibal likely did it to communicate the point that the Romans weren't as safe as they thought, but it is quite evident that the Alps were the ones communicating points. Additionally, if you look at his victories, they're most often reducible to: 1. The elementary tactic of the ambush (even if you are good at ambushes, they're the most basic tactic, right after the all out charge). 2. Superior numbers. We think of Hannibal as the underdog, but it wasn't uncommon for him to outnumber his foe. 3. Superior cavalry. Roman cavalry at the time was pitiful, as most history buffs will tell you, and Hannibal had his Numidian cavalry. This is a huge advantage. I won't be so extreme as to make a concrete judgement on the man's intellect, but I do doubt whether he is as intelligent as he is made out to be. Yes, his victory at Cannae was cunning, but was it a result of intellect, or an anomaly? In college, my Western Civilizations professor, when I questioned Hannibal's reputation, asked me this question: "The Romans represent him as a genius, why would they do that?" to which I responded. "The Romans were always quite arrogant. Which is better, to get your arse kicked by a fool, or to defeat a genius?"
Good Job Lloyd , I have wanted you to write a script for a movie or book since I started watching your channel a year or two ago . Really looking forward to it !!!! Great Job !
We have visual evidence of Helm's Deep 😝, many veterans such as Viggo Mortensen can attest to fighting in it. Really good video. You're style of presentation is really good, I think I've watched every single video of yours atleast twice, and enjoyed every second. Thanks a lot. Love the humour and the information. You accurately summarised, in a short video, something that took me quite a long time to figure out on my own. Keep up the good work.
+Zen Masta They're more of a psychological weapon, on the larger scale of things. Just like cavalry was generally much more of a deterrence, than a battle-deciding branch of an army. If the enemy had nothing to counter them with, then sure, they're formidable weapons, but if they have a counter? They're largely useless and only create a second field of fighting that has nothing to do with the main fighting that is done by infantry and infantry only, for all the recorded history of warfare.
First you have to devise the counter. And even if you have a counter you are still forced to implement it. Thats resources and options you are denied. To counter elephants youre forced to adopt the zama (I believe thats what it was called) formation. Your effectively denied starting with other formations. And organizing thousands of men into a new formation in the middle of a battle is no small task.
nipi tiri See that is the funny thing. Elephants do not appear in the "middle of the battle", because in the middle of the battle is where your own forces are, as well as your enemy's. Do you expect your elephants to softly treat around your own soldiers, while trampling the enemies only? This is not how it works, really. Cavalry-attacks and especially elephant-attacks are telegraphed ahead by quite some time and you have the time to react, especially if you have your troops trained for it. And the "elephant-trap" isn't a new thing. Alexander used it and a precursor to the tactic was repeatedly and successfully used against charitot-attacks in ancient egyptian-times.
American Duncan Ross (he Googles) identified the site of the Zama battlefield. He worked for the US State Department and had a Masters in archeology. There is a war monument at Kbor Klib between Siliana and Le Kef. The weathered, but still formidable, monument sits on a rise overlooking an immense plain. It is a monument built at a time and place where nothing else except the Battle of Zama occurred. Looking down from Kbor Klib, as I have, it is easy to imagine the battle unfolding just as Polybius described it. The Tunisia Department of Antiquities has accepted Duncan's case for Kbor Klib as the site of the famous battle.
Another thought about the War Hephalumps.... They were a hugely expensive superweapon and symbol of national pride. Compare the Yamato, or the Bismarck, or the "Pederson Device," etc. History is replete with hugely expensive superweapons which were too important to risk using, and thus never really did much other than deplete resources. It could very well be that they were kept back for a possible pivotal moment and weren't deployed in time to be useful.
Dylan Greene First, I made a generality, not an absolute rule. A dominant tendency if you will. The first atom bombs are the exception. However, the atomic weapons made after the war have conformed to the 'rule.'
GunFun ZS Fair enough. But I still don't buy that Hannibals' elephants where a style over substance / national pride "thing". If they where, why slog them all over the alps? Hannibal did use them and use them well, the same cannot be said for the Bismark or Yamoto.
I missed the patronage period for this project. A video about the Teutoburg forest would be brilliant. I have loved your channel for years. Demissitius vivat lindybeige.
The decisive factor in the battle was the final cavalry charge, in which the pikes were an advantage for the orcs. If they had other weapons they would have lost even worse. If not for that attack they would have taken the fortress any way.
Magnus Dahler Norling I meant the reason Rohan choose to defend Helm's Deep was to mitigate the Pikeman, who to be fair in the final charge were blinded by the sun and had to assemble their formation very quickly.
Our two sources for this battle differ on the conclusion. Jackson asserts that it was 2000 cavalry commanded by Eomer the nephew of King Theoden. Tolkein the Elder claims that it was merely 1000 infantry commanded by Erkenbrand, Eomer was in the castle.
I would not consider Jackson a "source". It was a movie design decision. Would you rather have horses and a character you know, or a complete new character with infantry? Cinema wants epic cavalry charges and not too many characters so there you have it. As loyal book fans of course we know it was Erkenbrand with his men who won the battle.
Frankly, I'd rather have the infantry, considering how many bloody pikes the armies of Isengard were equipped with. We must remember that the vast majority of Saruman's army was composed of Dunlander rabble, so the discrepancy between Uruk and human foot combat prowess would not have made a difference.
@Deathelement53 he didn't lie though? They're making the thing he finally finished writing it in April last year. It would have been nice if we got an explanation as to why it took so long but I assume they just vastly underestimated the ammount of work. Now it's just up to Chris to complete the art
That last bit of advice really help, I've been suffering from running scissors fatigue, which is like shell shock but full of paper cuts. I can now be free to tie my shoes for a living, thank you.
I think what Lindy is really having trouble with is that Rome finally kicked Mister Genius Hannibal's ass, and made it look easy. The battle though has seemed to me to be a forgone conclusion for several reasons, which still had to be played out to seal the reality of the situation. 1. Hannibal was on a short tether both strategically and tactically speaking between Scipio and Carthage. His battles of maneuver could not be put into play in open ground, especially with Carthage directly at risk. 2. The army he was given to lead was not the instrument he had used to break three successive consular forces in Italy, either in quality or quantity. the Roman army under Scipio had all the experience of the Second Punic War distilled into it, and had Numidian cavalry and the confidence of victories in Italy, Spain, and Scicily to offset Hannibal's glory days. 3. Elephants had troubled Rome in the time of Pyrrhus. They were no longer troublesome at Zama. The Romans had learned that the great beasts could be stampeded and thus nullified, and a likely danger to their own force then.
“-and made it look easy.” Is a grossly over exaggerated retelling of the battle. The fact that it came down to a slogging match between infantry and was fairly matched (with Hannibal’s infantry slowly beginning to create gaps in Scipio’s infantry lines) until the Calvary came into play dispels the notion that it was easy.
@@thepartingglass2538 Scipio Africanus had a plan, and a proper plan will make the outcome seem inevitable, as it did to many historians, regardless of work involved. Did you not read my reasons why Hannibal's genius was nullified, and he was bereft of meaningful battle planning? Hannibal's army was routed and driven from the field. Hannibal's infantry never seriously threatened the legions' integrity. The elephants might as well have been left behind for all they contributed, which was to leave the Carthaginian forces in chaos in their retreat. The excellent Numidian horse gave the Romans the cavalry edge they had been missing to make the victory complete. Hannibal's army was destroyed before his very eyes, beyond his capability to repair, and compared to the butchery of Cannae it was swift indeed.
Will the comics be available in print after the kickstarter or only through it? I'd love some nice print copies of this awesome comic, but don't currently have the funds. But I'm sure I can scratch them together by 2017.
One thing that would explain the relatively low number of elephants even in North Africa is the sheer amount of fodder it takes to keep them fed. 120kg of food per day is the low ball estimate for wild elephants in good conditions. Given we're talking about a desert battle, and given the amount of time elephants spend foraging a day anyway, all of this food would have to be carried by the army. Logistically, you can only reasonably expect to have so many elephants without having major supply shortages. Having hundreds defending a major trade hub like Carthage might not be a huge deal - cities take in a staggering amount of supplies on a daily basis, and always have - but an army on maneuvers in the Sahara? That's another problem altogether.
Except victories are more impressive when you are fighting a strong enemy. Hence a close battle can be more impressive than a total clean sweep. Also defeats are less embarrassing it the enemy has some sort of overwhelming advantage, “no no our troops fought well, but they cheated!” So a massive defeat can be preferable to a close call “I heard the army’s were evenly matched, ha if I was leading the troops I wouldn’t have lost!” Of corse there are exceptions to this if your fighting an enemy that is well known for being far inferior to your own troops this would have the opposite effect but ya know. Also I’m NOT saying the battle didn’t happen, I’m just saying that the fact that they say the battle was close isn’t really evidence one way or the other. If it happened it probably would have been close and if it was made up they also probably would of said it was close to make the enemy seem more impressive. PS. This is the same reason the new star wars movies probably don’t seem as interesting to you. In the original trilogy the empire ran a very capable military that utilized generally good practice and strategy, so when the rebel’s beat them it seemed like a real accomplishment. In the new movies both the first order and the resistance bumble around like their commanders are me as a kid trying to figure out total annihilation on my Windows 95 desktop for the first time....maybe it was windows 98 by then I can’t remember. Anyways you get this feeling that they were just like well we don’t know how to make the resistance competent so we will just make the first order even more incompetent no one will notice if we put enough flashing lights and action in there!
Do you have any thoughts on what kind of elephants the Carthaginians used? Roman accounts suggest Surus was an Asian Elephant, but coins from Carthage show a Forest Elephant. Forest Elephants would definitely be easier for Carthage to acquire since they lived around Mount Atlas, but if the Mahouts were from India I would imagine they brought elephants that they knew how to train.
Lindy referred to the Rohirrim, they are a cavalry army that wipes everyone away on open fields with giant charges, as seen in the battle of the Pelinor Fields, but I think Lindy hasn't thought about why they chose a siege in enough detail. I think that the Rohirrim chose a siege because they knew they were heavily outnumbered and would not be able to do their normal charge and win, so they decided to go to the strongest place they had where they had the best chance of surviving. Also, they film does not tell the whole detail, because if you read the books, then you see that there are many other events which lead up to the Rohirrim chosing a siege. I've done what Lindy does and gone on for ages and ages about a simple point.
james mccann no problem, mate. Just to point out smt - remember in the movies when Gandalf returns with Eomer and that big cavalry charge at the end of The Two Towers? In the books, those 1000 Rohirrim are dismounted. Interesting, eh?
+Simon The Sinda so you are reffering to those blond haired , blue eyed , masculine, descendants of the northmen inspired by norse culture as degenerates I wonder what would Varg said about that ;)
"We are absolutely certain that they did have wood after the second punic war." That you, Lloyd, for that mental image. I felt like it was needed today.
@lindybeige Im gonna crack and ask... WHY do you have a photo of Jeor Mormont amongst nature shots? Ive spent countless hours thinking this one over (my ocd cant handle it hah)
He dissed him once, then met him in real life and apologized, at which point he got an autographed photo, something like that. If you watch the videos around about the time the photo shows up in his background you'll run into the story.
Scipio won the battle before it started by using skillful diplomacy to cause the Numidians to switch sides. I appreciate whenever the uncertainties of the historical record are pointed out.
Short question: More or less, when is the line between mere hypothesis or opinion and what's considered most likely correct drawn in archaeology outside of sheer consensus among a given field? What's the general methodology involved?
if you think about battle of waterloo is also rather unlikely napoleon escapes island over throws the French government with virtually no troops, then invades Belgium and happens to fight the about most effective allied commander who has won numerous times but one who never actually encounter napoleon, who then completely defeats him napoleon in traditional battle ground of the british army Belgium, he then goes to another island, and all this takes place in 100 days come on this was just made to make wellington look good.
Waterloo was a piece of near-contemporary speculative historical fiction which was misinterpreted as historical fact. The Internet has reinforced this error to the point of it becoming almost indisputable 'fact'. The Internet is a disgrace.
WoW, I really enjoyed this video :) it was remarkably longer than a usual one and it made it so more fun to me :) you should do long videos at regular base :)
"We're absolutely certain that they did have wood after the Second Punic War" - Lloyd
By the way: Where is Lloyds giant pencil?
Until he told me to clear my mind of naughty thoughts after that comment I didn't have anything naughty in my mind that I needed to clear! Which I guess is a bit sad, or maybe not.
Boners
Script consultant- Matt Easton
Well, who wouldn't?
The Battle of Helm's Deep definitely happened, I read it in a book.
I saw it in a movie too. The evidence is irrefutable.
The Clone Wars definitely happened too. There have been many books written on the subject; some movies and a TV show.
Yes it did! But much more like the book account than the movie.
it was nothing compared to the special ops colonel o'neall (2 L) was involved in
+sugarnads
Mad
"This is a monster of a video - possibly my longest ever." Oh man, that aged like...
...a banana.
As did the "we'll post you a copy late 2017" bit.
@@darthkek1953 did it ever even come out?
@@calebsilvergleid9797 not yet, that's the joke. But he does say the money is in an account and it is being worked on.
But, Jesus, some people have died in the meantime. He'll have to find the living relatives. :-D
Boring as hell
Why are all the archaeologists single? Because they cant find dates
*Slow clap in the background*
+zoe99 fail troll
We can be sure that they have wood.
i don't get it.....
oh come on, I'm sure they can dig up something
Don't be daft. Wood wasn't invented until 1490.
*Sigh* You idiot.. Wood was discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1492.
I'm pretty sure they were mining wood in Asia before then, but Asian history is often overlooked.
Or by the vikings, but that's another topic
Xaro Xhoan Daxos Incorrect. For example the massive warships that say the Tang used were in fact built entirely of wishful thinking and unicorn farts.
Rollo Red Really, dude? We all know Unicorns don't fart. I can't even take you seriously anymore.
Another thing about dating a structure: It could have been restored at that date, not built.
Precisely what I was thinking. No matter whether it's dendrochronology or radiocarbon dating, all it proves is that this particular piece of wood was harvested around date x. It says nothing about the wider structure that it was a part of.
I'm sorry but Rome clearly didn't exist before the Middle Ages as this bit of timber I found dates from 700 ad
Exactly, and since romans rebuilt the port, I thought maybe they just took pieces they already had in another port and stuck them to the carthaginian port way later, making it seem they're much older than they really are.
I could also see how a building materials could be reused so unless they date a wide variety of points in the building accuracy could decrease
There's a castle dating from the 1400's near me which is about 4ft high now... But the local farm walls are made from lots and lots of cut stone..
"sometime around December 2017 we will be posting you a brand new graphic novel" is one of my favourite quotes of all time :)
Scipio also had quite a few enemies and rivals in Rome. Sure he must have been quite popular and maybe the Romans had an extraordinarily cohesive political climate.
But I still very much doubt that All of Scipios rivals could have been left in the dark over a falsification of such scale. And if they knew about the fraud, to me atleast, it seems very unlikely that they would have kept quiet about it.
But written evidence is much after Scopios time
@@indianhistorybuff The Scipio family was still very powerful for quite some time after the Punic Wars though (one of them was a general in the civil war with Caesar, for example), and I imagine they'd have something to say about it.
@@nathanielwilliams3891 He fought with Pompey and was in fact later the leader of the pompeian faction, despite Labienus had a lot more of experience and skill. However, he only had the name and the legend that "None Scipio could be ever defeated in Africa", so Ceaser hired as legatus another minor Scipio. My point is: Scipios in that time only had a prestigious nomen, but barely real power. And with the lots of enemies in Rome, I simply don't get how they could make that conspiracy and inventing or depicting thousand and thousand of men fighting. Scipio Africanus was exiled and with the furious hate against him of Cato, who even tried damnatio memoriae, so such conspiracy would be too juicy to let it pass by.
It's like making up barbarossa, it's ridiculous. You could never successfully just claim something happened like that in a literate society.
@@nathanielwilliams3891 The Scipio family would be very happy to perpetuate the myth.
The real question IMO: if Hannibal'd had the choice, would he have picked the Bren or the Spandau?
at least he loved it when a plan came together.
The Bren. He needed to stay mobile and aggressive when in Rome.
What a silly question the answer is obviously a Katana.
Everyone knows the answer to that... it's the Bren
Katanafanged brandlephants.
Another argument regarding the elephants which I recently came across:
The elephants Hannibal used at Zama may have been badly trained, since the Carthaginians may have "scraped the barrel" to provide Hannibal with enough troops, and maybe they simply did not have enough trained elephants and used some hastily trained ones - maybe even with less well-trained mahoots who are even less likely to put them down.
Another interesting note regarding elephants: when you make your graphic novel, maybe try to take into account that the elephants the Carthaginians mostly seem to have used were, possibly, the North African elephant (loxodonta africana pharaoensis), which seems to have been a small breed of elephant and become extinct in Roman times. There is a fair chance that the Carthaginians would have used these at Zama, not the much larger sub-Saharan specimens.
There is, however, also a good chance that the elephants were in fact Indian ones brought over all the way from Asia - which is reinforced by the mention of Indian mahoots.
Wouldn't a less-trained mahoot with not much more than a passing familiarity with the elephant be _more_ likely to take it down?
The Romans by that time had had a lot of time for strategizing and had already come up with a strategy involving needling the elephant with javelins. Wouldn't it be more probable that the mahoot was simply dead because the first thing the javelineers were instructed to do was to kill the mahoot?
That's at least what my dad told me, but while he was a historian, it was not really his field of expertise. He did have a general interest in Roman history, though.
Also, I think you meant Zama instead of Cannae in your second sentence.
Thanks for the tip, I edited it :)
Hm. I think an untrained mahoot would be less likely to take down his elephant; a true professional would, while noobs would be squeamish. I may be wrong, however.
+Ufthak1 the mahoots and elephants could have been conscripted from readily available labor stock. the mahoots could have had a tight bond with the animal which would have prevented them from killing them but would also explain the very poor performance as the labor stock would not have been trained as a war animal.
Definitely also a possibility, good point!
So Hannibal single handedly drove that elephant to extinction , cool!
Don't overload yourself. You'll destroy your project. Make sure you don't fall into the same trap of others by being too ambitious.
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet mrZbozon says he was ambitious;
And mrZbozon is an honorable man.
I DO think this is his main source of income, but he occasionally puts on plays and dances a little too I think.
Who works AFTER getting paid?
He is also a rather responsible adult kind of person, so I'd expect him to be more reasonable than the average youtuber who rise to fame all of a sudden and so don't know their limits. Let us see how far he can go. I honestly cant picture Lindy being burnt out about anything he wants to do, he really just appears very energetic and passionate about everything he does
Who works AFTER getting paid? Your mum. No, literally. For you.
Theory: A *zombie plague* emerged in Africa and the Carthaginians AND Romans teamed up to put down the hordes. Hannibal and his remaining forces returned to Carthage to secure the city against further attack, but brought the virus back with them. The infection reached critical levels in the Carthaginian empire. Frequent reports of it prompted Romans like Cato the Elder to urge the "purification" of the area ("Carthago delenda est!"). By the Third Punic War, Carthage had been so overrun with the undead that the Roman Empire had no choice but to annihilate the entire city and salt the earth.
There's a golden movie idea
Vito C spoiler alert
That's a lot of moneys worth of salt.its worth more than gold you know
Sounds like something max Brooks would write, heh.
I read a book with this exact scenario, except it was two armies fighting for / against Byzantium uniting to fight Zombies... Can't remember the title, sorry
24:00 Now you have to make a video discussing battles that _were_ made up.
Or at least one about what really happened at Kadesh. That would be a funny one, for sure.
Most likely a big pool party arranged to get away from spouse and bra... oh, I think one was sterile?
Thanks for spoiling
Ramsesse II fought off an army of Hittite Chariots by himself while his men cowered in fear waiting for reinforcments, what else is their to add?
(@Colin) why do you even go to the comments before the video? lol
Loyd, you mention livy several times but Polybius wrote about Zama much earlier (probably around 100 years before Livy given that he describes things all the way to 146 BC and died at 100 BC). Polybius was born on 200BC and had A LOT of contact with people people who lived through the II punic war, I'm no scholar but it seems bizarre to think that he would put such a blatant lie in his histories, specially given the fact that he was a greek historian.
Polybius was a friend of the scipio family. So he could have written about a “fake” battle to increase the scipio family’s prestige. If the battle is made up
@@gwh766 But he wrote about it when the events were too close to get away with it in the slightest,f it was fake. In Rome there was not the monopoly of knowledge, the literacy rate was very high, and Scipio was not the kind of "hero that all loved" that we tend to believe today. He was actually frowned upon. Marcellus, or Fabius, were example of Roman virtues. Scipio was more the youngster with a great talent and an even bigger mouth, that cultivated questionable friendships with foreign kings and chieftains.
@@gwh766 No need to write about a "fake" battle, Scipio already won several battles in Hispagnia and in Africa.
@@gwh766 thats fact plus i think yozan mozig reaserch are more évident then this guy sorry if you take this in a bad way pro roman❤️😂
@@rivaxbcz9227 xavier mon chum nomme moi des bataille que scipi afri anus a gagné contre Hanniball
I was especially intrigued by Lloyd's Inverse Monument Postulation:
The Larger the Monument, the smaller the battle; with its logical extension that REALLY large and quantitative memorial monuments mean the battle never took place.
And all this time I REALLY believed that WWII happened -- they won't fool me again... :)
World War Two definitely happened, but it was more of a global military parade than a fight. Certainly none of the major campaigns occurred on the scale that we're led to believe. Battle of Britain? A dogfight one August afternoon over Kent. Western desert? Petrol rationing and lots of fist-shaking across no man's land. Kursk? Didn't happen.
To be fair, all jokes/theories/facts aside, there is a huge column in Boulogne, France dedicated to Napoleon's Invasion of England. It's as tall as Nelson's column and just as grand, and has since been changed to commemorate the meeting of the generals there in 1805...
@@KrillLiberator another example, The bucket wars was fought with splashing water at each other. The Punic wars war actually a boat race, the England France wars was a banquet, and ww1 also just a steam car race. Don't let them foot you again
so 7 years later this graphic novel still doesn't exist?
I shall be extremely disappointed if Hannibal doesn't look, dress and talk like Lloyd.
I'll be looking for a Nikolas Lloyd cameo in the graphic novel. Barring that, any reference to "beige"
I hope Hannibal talks like Christopher Walken.
Hannibal talk like Christopher? Do he learned English?
+Hannibal953able "so he hid the elephant the only place he could... His ass"
+Harvey See. It works perfectly.
there are four men in a battle, one has a pommel, two has a spandau, three has a katana, and four has a bayonet. the battlefield is a giant viking shield and the referee is a berserker, who wins
The Bren gun.
Realistically Two, it may not be accurate but it's a gun. Unrealistically the Ref.
It will probably be the guy with the pommel, he will end them all rightly.
the guy with the pommel sees the guy with the spandau as the biggest threat and ends him rightly, now weaponless the bayonet guy charges him and he runs away, falling off the edge of the shield. The katana guy then cleaves the bayonet guy in half, slicing straight through the bayonet, the man and the shield, sending him tumbling to his death. This sends the referee into a beserk frenzy and he runs round killing spectators until a guy four miles away picks hi off with a Bren gun while riding on a war elephant which is swimming across a river in France.
Pommel wins all.
Hmmh... What if there was a Spandau that could use pommels as ammunitio- Oh god I just invented the apocalypse-weapon didn't I?
A Spandau that shoots pommels and has a katana as a bayonet.
Another reason I've heard that commanders would put their veterans in the back was to help to discourage the younger, more inexperienced troops from breaking the line. At least that's how I heard the Greek phalanx was arranged. Just discovered your channel, awesome stuff!
Dante Alighieri, that was among the "fenditores", the first wave of knight to enter in battle, at Campaldino, is very adamant in that. He was a newbie, and newbies were sent ahead so that they could make their max effort before the horrors of the battlefield (dismembered bodies, the smell of blood and shit) could discourage them.
@@neutronalchemist3241 Also the reason fresh units were preferred to make charges in the American Civil War.
Bro,, you're just simply AWESOME.... I've watched sooo many of your videos & you encompass such an amazing swath of history while having a mastery of it.. While making it entertaining the whole while... Thank you & keep up the amazing work...
It's really nice to see a project such as this being so successful.
With mainstream comics so mind-numbingly atrocious as they are currently and even the medium as a whole being rather stagnant and lifeless; This project shows that there's room still for some attempt and interest at producing and seeing something that might rise above the prevailing four-color mire.
Here's hoping you get another 15K!
also something that is actually researched to the greatest extend reasonable for the creators, and would be educational material in a way
Hey Lindybeige, I recently found your channel and after watching and re-watching your videos, I just have to say thank you good sir!
1378: Second Battle of Spandau on the Katana steppes.
Did it actually happen?
That was before George Washington crossed the Rubicon in the Russian winter to declare himself Burgermeister of Beijing right?
Yeah, and he won because he used explosive fire arrows and his men were equipped with back-scabbarded katanas
Photographic evidence: imgur.com/s92k2JS
+Isaiah Young ja
wow the jokes are getting lame...
Wow, I am really glad you warned us not to run with scissors at the end! Since there wasn't a massive outbreak of scissor-related mutilations and defenestrations after posting this video, we can safely assume with absolute certainty that your warning saved countless of limbs, lives and livelihoods! Bloody brilliantly done, I must say.
There is a Roman monument in Tunisia called Kbor Klib. It overlooks a plain large enough to accommodate a battle between two large armies. It also dates to the time of the battle. Google Kbor Klib and Duncan Ross, the American archeologist who did the detective work to find it and identify it as the site of the Battle of Zama. I've been on the site, and the Tunisian Ministry of Antiquities has accepted the Kbor Klib monument as genuine.
Wikipedia also notes that most of the information comes from Polybius - a Greek, about a couple of decades later than the battle - but Lindy is only referencing Livy - a Roman, who wrote a couple centuries later.
Wow i didnt know they had wood after the 2nd pubic war
We know from the wood lice.
Livy isn't the only source for the battle. Polybius writes about it and he was born 200 bc, one year after the war ended. Also, he was Greek and therefore might have less motivation for writing propaganda.
Many modern historians actually questioned Polybius' impartiality when it comes to matters pertaining the Scipiones, because he stated clearly that Scipio Africanus was his patron.
Good point, but I think his being born much closer in time than Livy counts for something.
He was a friend of the scipio family. So he had quite the motivation for lying ;)
Uh, friend of the Scipio family or not (which comes as no surprise, since they were patrons of many in the city of Rome, hard not to be acquainted with them), Polybius was actually a very serious, rigorous historian. If you don't think the Battle of Zama occurred, then why not the Battle of Illipa four years before it in 206 BC? This was Scipio's greatest battle, not Zama, and it took place in southern Spain against Mago Barca, Hannibal's brother. It was the reason Rome was able to secure Iberia and kick the Carthaginians out. This is what happens with your leaky conspiracy theories: they're easy to disprove with the most basic related information.
Erik Peterson The Greeks hated the Carthaginians.
I truly believe that had you been my history professor in my second year at YorkU my life would have taken a different and more satisfying track. But that was many decades of time ago and not worth thinking about. Keep up the excellent work! (And I will keep on following.)
How has it been this long and nobody's sued them yet
Ah, 2016 Lindy, when he thought 24 minutes was long
"This is a monster of a video - possibly my longest ever." Funny to read that in contrast with the more than an hour long videos that can be found later on XD
how to pick up an archaeologist:
"Are you an archaeologist?", "Yes, I am" , "Great cause I got a large bone that needs examining"
Large might be an exaggeration....
Gayyy
Wives and children:"Well,well, tell us the story"
Option 1: We waited around doing fuckall whilst a treaty was signed, we then went home.
Option 2:We fought an awesome battle and I did some sweet ninja flips.
Something I find fascinating watching your videos... over 20 minutes and no cut... pretty rare among the youtubers discussing a topic I subscribed to...
Do we not have any surviving Carthaginian accounts?
Hannibal lived for 20 years after Zama. Wouldn't he have disputed it if it was entirely made up?
Well, no. As Lloyd said, if it was forged, it was made during Livy's times, almost 200 years after the battle. So 20 years after, there was no forgery for Hannibal to dispute. And then, there was no Carthage to dispute.
@@FolgoreCZ what about Polybius? Did he not write about it? On the article Lindybeige posted on the video description they mentioned Polybius writing about it.
The history was written AFTER Carthage was destroyed. So due to this, there is no surviving counter-argument.
Sir, you are a rambling machine. And I always listen to the last second.
Will you eventually make something about Hannibal commanding the Seleucid navy? There's a lot of fun to be had with the vague descriptions of him launching snakes (I like to imagine he trained them to lie very straight and shot them from ballistas)
Congratulations on the Kickstarter Lindy. Im glad to see what we love come to fruition.
Hannibal is a badass name.
I will name my daughter after him.
***** I have a long list of weird but cool names, be aware though... your child could be bullied which sucks!
Hanna?
It's actually Hanniba'al, which means "Grace of Ba'al", as in the Canaanite/Phoenician deity(ies). In the Punic context, most likely Ba'al Hamon, to whom child sacrifices were fairly commonly made according to Greco-Roman sources. Just FYI
So the Carthaginians worshiped Satan?
Wow, I'm so freaking happy that this actually all worked out well!
I'm really, really looking forward to the comic!
YOU CAN HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!: End the war how it likely actually happened, not with the glorious epic star wars harry potter azor ahai second coming of christ war for the dawn like it was described, but rather, with small but growing peace. THEN have the last chapter or whatever you're using with the roman leadership months/years later far away desiding they want to 'modify' the reality as they like for the glory of the empire. The with noble scholars designing the propaganda and writing the battle (great chance to self insert you as one of the roman scholars writing the story) as they wanted. Then you just finish the book with the battle as described! SO you get to write out the battle and have it be as awesome as possible!
Now that would be awesome, and pretty fucking meta. People would love that!
This is a really neat idea, but it should be the other way around. Cutting to the battle after hearing it's a fabrication just makes the ending feel hollow - why read it?
Better, ime, to have the battle in narrative, and then an ending scene in the time the histories were written with a centurion and a scholar. Where the centurion is generally skeptical the battle actually happened, and the scholar counters with something like "If Hannibal had never been defeated, would we really be Rome?" or something similar - to imply both that a.) it might have happened and b.) if it didn't, it would be necessary to lie about it.
Err, that should be *imo, for in my opinion, not experience. I do not actually have experience of writing historical fiction that's concerned enough with accuracy to want to address the potential of historical fabrication in narrative. (Probably not that many people do, actually, but lloyd is a good person to take it on!)
"We're absolutely certain that they did have wood after the second Punic war" - Nikolas Lloyd
Of _course_ the Battle of Helm's Deep happened. Without that decisive victory over Bavmorda's army, Thulsa Doom never would have risked betraying Drizzt Do'Urden at the Red Wedding, and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser would have been in a right pickle then. (At least, that's how I remember it. It's possible my mind may have wandered a bit in history class.)
Nope. You mind didn't wander... You remember it exactly as it happened. :)
I take it your mind did wander a bit, there was a lull in the middle of the battle where Jon Snow crosses the Red Sea and parlayed with George Washington atop Mount Doom... History classes these days, really on the decline.
Bavmorda in middle earth would be awesome!
Upvoted for best fantasy series ever (Ffahrd und Gray Mouser).
Lindy's always got a good psychological description of the mind set of the people and commanders,as well as a grasp of its relevance to situational awareness and technology, all done in a lay back yet knowledgeable format, keep it up!
I've never been so hyped for a graphic novel before... is this normal?
only if you're a nerd
a very cool nerd!
A very cool nerd who happens to like Lindybeige's channel
+Lord Eyehead No. Definitly not. I suggest visiting a psychiatric ward.
It's because, finally, some people that love history get to tell history, not the people that are stupid or love money far more.
I love how much you've been posting lately. Keep up all you do Lindy, you are great.
Wow, such ignorance, the battle of helm's deep DID happen and the rohan won due to their elven allied and their mighty spandau. The spandau superiority over the uruk's bren was proven at this battle, unsubed.
The elves also had katanas which could cut clean through the orcish longsword.
not only that, but their superior number of troops carrying torches during the day to increase visibility (a habit gained from the same practice at home) gave them considerable advantage.
I heard that the Orcs used the less-complicated version of chain-mail as well
Incorrect. Clearly, in 1169, they wore studded leather jerkins with plate-kinis underneath.
kekejojo1212 the torch were used to light the spandau's bullet on fire so they could cook the uruk should they fail to penetrate too.
Release date: 2017. It's just like how every year scientists say nuclear fusion is 50 years away
I'd like a tale about Mildred the war elephant. Sounds like a best seller.
Keep your eyes peeled for Lloyd's upcoming children's book 'Mildred crosses the Alps'
New to this channel, this is fantastic stuff. The graphic novel is going to be a great success, and I hope it spawns an entire series. Such a project with this writer and illustrator on Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon and the civil war - drool. So much great possibilities, but I hope they are prepared for a second printing (at least), as I think they are underestimating how popular this is going to be with a wide swath of people - history fans, fans of the channel, comic geeks like myself.
Fantastic. Brilliant.
Lloyd, your timing for the "Don't, that's filth" statement perfectly lined up with my timing of typing a dirty joke in the comment section. I laughed pretty hard.
On a more serious note, I'm happy to see you engaging with the Punic Wars, and the Battle of Zama in particular. I've long held that Hannibal wasn't near the genius he is made out to be, and that he may have actually been just short of an imbecile most of the time.
The crossing of the Alps, in particular, strikes me as an action that a brilliant tactician/strategist wouldn't likely take. It's true, Hannibal likely did it to communicate the point that the Romans weren't as safe as they thought, but it is quite evident that the Alps were the ones communicating points.
Additionally, if you look at his victories, they're most often reducible to:
1. The elementary tactic of the ambush (even if you are good at ambushes, they're the most basic tactic, right after the all out charge).
2. Superior numbers. We think of Hannibal as the underdog, but it wasn't uncommon for him to outnumber his foe.
3. Superior cavalry. Roman cavalry at the time was pitiful, as most history buffs will tell you, and Hannibal had his Numidian cavalry. This is a huge advantage.
I won't be so extreme as to make a concrete judgement on the man's intellect, but I do doubt whether he is as intelligent as he is made out to be. Yes, his victory at Cannae was cunning, but was it a result of intellect, or an anomaly? In college, my Western Civilizations professor, when I questioned Hannibal's reputation, asked me this question:
"The Romans represent him as a genius, why would they do that?"
to which I responded.
"The Romans were always quite arrogant. Which is better, to get your arse kicked by a fool, or to defeat a genius?"
Good Job Lloyd , I have wanted you to write a script for a movie or book since I started watching your channel a year or two ago . Really looking forward to it !!!! Great Job !
"We're absolutely certain that they DID have wood after the Second Punic War." -Lloyd 2016
We have visual evidence of Helm's Deep 😝, many veterans such as Viggo Mortensen can attest to fighting in it.
Really good video. You're style of presentation is really good, I think I've watched every single video of yours atleast twice, and enjoyed every second. Thanks a lot. Love the humour and the information. You accurately summarised, in a short video, something that took me quite a long time to figure out on my own. Keep up the good work.
War elephants sound like a LOT more trouble than they're worth. Not to mention the amount of food and water they need.
If you luck out the elephants can completely decimate your enemy's formation and then all you have to do is send in the cavalry for easy kills.
+Zen Masta They're more of a psychological weapon, on the larger scale of things. Just like cavalry was generally much more of a deterrence, than a battle-deciding branch of an army. If the enemy had nothing to counter them with, then sure, they're formidable weapons, but if they have a counter? They're largely useless and only create a second field of fighting that has nothing to do with the main fighting that is done by infantry and infantry only, for all the recorded history of warfare.
Perhaps this would work with if the elephant was made of wood. Kind of like a wooden horse I guess, which has worked before apparently!
First you have to devise the counter. And even if you have a counter you are still forced to implement it. Thats resources and options you are denied.
To counter elephants youre forced to adopt the zama (I believe thats what it was called) formation. Your effectively denied starting with other formations. And organizing thousands of men into a new formation in the middle of a battle is no small task.
nipi tiri
See that is the funny thing. Elephants do not appear in the "middle of the battle", because in the middle of the battle is where your own forces are, as well as your enemy's. Do you expect your elephants to softly treat around your own soldiers, while trampling the enemies only? This is not how it works, really. Cavalry-attacks and especially elephant-attacks are telegraphed ahead by quite some time and you have the time to react, especially if you have your troops trained for it.
And the "elephant-trap" isn't a new thing. Alexander used it and a precursor to the tactic was repeatedly and successfully used against charitot-attacks in ancient egyptian-times.
American Duncan Ross (he Googles) identified the site of the Zama battlefield. He worked for the US State Department and had a Masters in archeology. There is a war monument at Kbor Klib between Siliana and Le Kef. The weathered, but still formidable, monument sits on a rise overlooking an immense plain. It is a monument built at a time and place where nothing else except the Battle of Zama occurred. Looking down from Kbor Klib, as I have, it is easy to imagine the battle unfolding just as Polybius described it. The Tunisia Department of Antiquities has accepted Duncan's case for Kbor Klib as the site of the famous battle.
24:20 Didn't the Winged Hussars do that exact thing at Hadow when the held out against Crimean Khanate forces that outnumbered them 100 to 1?
I love the channel, but it's painful to hear him talk about the graphic novel being ready in 2017.
Your editing skills seem to be progressing quite rapidly!! keep up the good work!!
Another thought about the War Hephalumps.... They were a hugely expensive superweapon and symbol of national pride. Compare the Yamato, or the Bismarck, or the "Pederson Device," etc. History is replete with hugely expensive superweapons which were too important to risk using, and thus never really did much other than deplete resources. It could very well be that they were kept back for a possible pivotal moment and weren't deployed in time to be useful.
Would the Japanese have wasted the Yamoto by sailing it into New York harbour?
By taking it into any fight anywhere... That's the thing, if your weapon is too important to lose, it tends to be too important to use.
GunFun ZS Well if that was true, Fat Man and Little Boy would have never been dropped.
Dylan Greene First, I made a generality, not an absolute rule. A dominant tendency if you will. The first atom bombs are the exception. However, the atomic weapons made after the war have conformed to the 'rule.'
GunFun ZS Fair enough. But I still don't buy that Hannibals' elephants where a style over substance / national pride "thing". If they where, why slog them all over the alps? Hannibal did use them and use them well, the same cannot be said for the Bismark or Yamoto.
I missed the patronage period for this project. A video about the Teutoburg forest would be brilliant. I have loved your channel for years. Demissitius vivat lindybeige.
Well there may be more to Helm's Deep than you think as the Orcs were also handicapped because they mostly had pikeman trying to assault a Fortress.
The decisive factor in the battle was the final cavalry charge, in which the pikes were an advantage for the orcs. If they had other weapons they would have lost even worse. If not for that attack they would have taken the fortress any way.
Magnus Dahler Norling
I meant the reason Rohan choose to defend Helm's Deep was to mitigate the Pikeman, who to be fair in the final charge were blinded by the sun and had to assemble their formation very quickly.
Our two sources for this battle differ on the conclusion. Jackson asserts that it was 2000 cavalry commanded by Eomer the nephew of King Theoden. Tolkein the Elder claims that it was merely 1000 infantry commanded by Erkenbrand, Eomer was in the castle.
I would not consider Jackson a "source". It was a movie design decision. Would you rather have horses and a character you know, or a complete new character with infantry? Cinema wants epic cavalry charges and not too many characters so there you have it. As loyal book fans of course we know it was Erkenbrand with his men who won the battle.
Frankly, I'd rather have the infantry, considering how many bloody pikes the armies of Isengard were equipped with. We must remember that the vast majority of Saruman's army was composed of Dunlander rabble, so the discrepancy between Uruk and human foot combat prowess would not have made a difference.
December 2017 indeed lol. Oh well. We love you anyway Lloyd.
He lied to these people and stole their money with false promises and you still say "we love you" alright then
@Deathelement53 he didn't lie though? They're making the thing he finally finished writing it in April last year. It would have been nice if we got an explanation as to why it took so long but I assume they just vastly underestimated the ammount of work. Now it's just up to Chris to complete the art
But I've seen footage of the Battle of Helm's Deep!
I backed it yesterday and am very excited. Congratulations to you both.
Shocking new evidence has been released: Carthage had wood after the Second Punic War. This changes everything we think we know about the period
That last bit of advice really help, I've been suffering from running scissors fatigue, which is like shell shock but full of paper cuts. I can now be free to tie my shoes for a living, thank you.
Damn, now I have need to play Total War again.
Excellent stuff Lindybiege.... Grazie mille for your efforts.
I think what Lindy is really having trouble with is that Rome finally kicked Mister Genius Hannibal's ass, and made it look easy. The battle though has seemed to me to be a forgone conclusion for several reasons, which still had to be played out to seal the reality of the situation.
1. Hannibal was on a short tether both strategically and tactically speaking between Scipio and Carthage. His battles of maneuver could not be put into play in open ground, especially with Carthage directly at risk.
2. The army he was given to lead was not the instrument he had used to break three successive consular forces in Italy, either in quality or quantity. the Roman army under Scipio had all the experience of the Second Punic War distilled into it, and had Numidian cavalry and the confidence of victories in Italy, Spain, and Scicily to offset Hannibal's glory days.
3. Elephants had troubled Rome in the time of Pyrrhus. They were no longer troublesome at Zama. The Romans had learned that the great beasts could be stampeded and thus nullified, and a likely danger to their own force then.
Loyd is obviously a Hannibal fanboy, hell defend him the same way girls defend justin Bieber lol
“-and made it look easy.” Is a grossly over exaggerated retelling of the battle. The fact that it came down to a slogging match between infantry and was fairly matched (with Hannibal’s infantry slowly beginning to create gaps in Scipio’s infantry lines) until the Calvary came into play dispels the notion that it was easy.
@@thepartingglass2538 Scipio Africanus had a plan, and a proper plan will make the outcome seem inevitable, as it did to many historians, regardless of work involved. Did you not read my reasons why Hannibal's genius was nullified, and he was bereft of meaningful battle planning? Hannibal's army was routed and driven from the field. Hannibal's infantry never seriously threatened the legions' integrity. The elephants might as well have been left behind for all they contributed, which was to leave the Carthaginian forces in chaos in their retreat. The excellent Numidian horse gave the Romans the cavalry edge they had been missing to make the victory complete. Hannibal's army was destroyed before his very eyes, beyond his capability to repair, and compared to the butchery of Cannae it was swift indeed.
Please make a video about the Falklands/Malvinas conflict, i'd really enjoy it.
Love the vids, keep 'em coming!
Seven years on and I'm still "In Search of Hannibal.."
😂
I just started watching him and i wanted to buy a copy😂
Will the comics be available in print after the kickstarter or only through it? I'd love some nice print copies of this awesome comic, but don't currently have the funds. But I'm sure I can scratch them together by 2017.
at the meeting on the hill, " so, ... you going to pay me that $50 you owe me or are we going to do this?"
Love your videos Lindybeige ! I followed Hannibal’s path from sagunto to Italy in 2010, would love to visit Carthage one day
A video about Bismarck and Tirpiz German battlships would be nice, Not a lot of peaople know about such a thing.
One thing that would explain the relatively low number of elephants even in North Africa is the sheer amount of fodder it takes to keep them fed. 120kg of food per day is the low ball estimate for wild elephants in good conditions. Given we're talking about a desert battle, and given the amount of time elephants spend foraging a day anyway, all of this food would have to be carried by the army. Logistically, you can only reasonably expect to have so many elephants without having major supply shortages. Having hundreds defending a major trade hub like Carthage might not be a huge deal - cities take in a staggering amount of supplies on a daily basis, and always have - but an army on maneuvers in the Sahara? That's another problem altogether.
Except victories are more impressive when you are fighting a strong enemy. Hence a close battle can be more impressive than a total clean sweep. Also defeats are less embarrassing it the enemy has some sort of overwhelming advantage, “no no our troops fought well, but they cheated!” So a massive defeat can be preferable to a close call “I heard the army’s were evenly matched, ha if I was leading the troops I wouldn’t have lost!”
Of corse there are exceptions to this if your fighting an enemy that is well known for being far inferior to your own troops this would have the opposite effect but ya know. Also I’m NOT saying the battle didn’t happen, I’m just saying that the fact that they say the battle was close isn’t really evidence one way or the other. If it happened it probably would have been close and if it was made up they also probably would of said it was close to make the enemy seem more impressive.
PS. This is the same reason the new star wars movies probably don’t seem as interesting to you. In the original trilogy the empire ran a very capable military that utilized generally good practice and strategy, so when the rebel’s beat them it seemed like a real accomplishment. In the new movies both the first order and the resistance bumble around like their commanders are me as a kid trying to figure out total annihilation on my Windows 95 desktop for the first time....maybe it was windows 98 by then I can’t remember. Anyways you get this feeling that they were just like well we don’t know how to make the resistance competent so we will just make the first order even more incompetent no one will notice if we put enough flashing lights and action in there!
Do you have any thoughts on what kind of elephants the Carthaginians used? Roman accounts suggest Surus was an Asian Elephant, but coins from Carthage show a Forest Elephant. Forest Elephants would definitely be easier for Carthage to acquire since they lived around Mount Atlas, but if the Mahouts were from India I would imagine they brought elephants that they knew how to train.
The Uruk-hai army was infantry based. But maybe you referred to the Rohirrim. Which were outnumbered 10 to 1.
Lindy referred to the Rohirrim, they are a cavalry army that wipes everyone away on open fields with giant charges, as seen in the battle of the Pelinor Fields, but I think Lindy hasn't thought about why they chose a siege in enough detail. I think that the Rohirrim chose a siege because they knew they were heavily outnumbered and would not be able to do their normal charge and win, so they decided to go to the strongest place they had where they had the best chance of surviving. Also, they film does not tell the whole detail, because if you read the books, then you see that there are many other events which lead up to the Rohirrim chosing a siege. I've done what Lindy does and gone on for ages and ages about a simple point.
james mccann no problem, mate. Just to point out smt - remember in the movies when Gandalf returns with Eomer and that big cavalry charge at the end of The Two Towers? In the books, those 1000 Rohirrim are dismounted. Interesting, eh?
I think the one detail you are all missing, is that it was a joke, and the technicalities of jokes are never fully thought through.
no they chose a siege because Tolkien wrote it that way
+Simon The Sinda so you are reffering to those blond haired , blue eyed , masculine, descendants of the northmen inspired by norse culture as degenerates I wonder what would Varg said about that ;)
"We are absolutely certain that they did have wood after the second punic war."
That you, Lloyd, for that mental image. I felt like it was needed today.
plot twist: the battle of Zama didn't actually happen at Zama, that's just where the Romans got ice cream on the way home after the battle.
ha ha
Hi lindybeige , I don't know if you watch game of thrones of not but I just want to ask if you will do a video about Battle of bastards ,S06E09
final stretch goal: fire arrows added into every scene
@lindybeige Im gonna crack and ask... WHY do you have a photo of Jeor Mormont amongst nature shots? Ive spent countless hours thinking this one over (my ocd cant handle it hah)
He dissed him once, then met him in real life and apologized, at which point he got an autographed photo, something like that. If you watch the videos around about the time the photo shows up in his background you'll run into the story.
Please do a video about Battles that probably didn't happen!
GeneralsGentlemen Very good idea!
Like ww-1
The battle of tabuk (arab-byzanitne war).
Part 1 was great! When are the other four 25 minute parts coming?
Watching this in 2020 and seeing "This is a monster of a video - possibly my longest ever." XD
nice video - what are some example of battles that probably were manufactured then?
Scipio won the battle before it started by using skillful diplomacy to cause the Numidians to switch sides.
I appreciate whenever the uncertainties of the historical record are pointed out.
Short question: More or less, when is the line between mere hypothesis or opinion and what's considered most likely correct drawn in archaeology outside of sheer consensus among a given field?
What's the general methodology involved?
It looks like Hannibal is still nowhere to be found :P
I wish I had the money, looks like this will be really good! Also, grats on getting to your top tier of stretch goals!
if you think about battle of waterloo is also rather unlikely napoleon escapes island over throws the French government with virtually no troops, then invades Belgium and happens to fight the about most effective allied commander who has won numerous times but one who never actually encounter napoleon, who then completely defeats him napoleon in traditional battle ground of the british army Belgium, he then goes to another island, and all this takes place in 100 days come on this was just made to make wellington look good.
Waterloo was a piece of near-contemporary speculative historical fiction which was misinterpreted as historical fact. The Internet has reinforced this error to the point of it becoming almost indisputable 'fact'.
The Internet is a disgrace.
Surely it is released any day now...
+Lindybeige , do you think sometime you could cover the story of the Battle for Castle Itter? It is most definitely one of my favorite stories of ww2.
Ye gods! Hasn't everyone got bored of the katana/Bren/pommel references yet? It makes picking out relevant contributions very time consuming!
Katana fanboy detected! /jk
+KorKhan89 I'd rather have a pointed stick :-)
But how many pommels can your stick throw per second?
+Rotary Saw Plonker
it will never stop
WoW, I really enjoyed this video :) it was remarkably longer than a usual one and it made it so more fun to me :) you should do long videos at regular base :)
So…that graphic novel. What’s happening? 😶
I'm really just elated with your success in this.