Both of the deaths on the night of the black knives become more poignant when looked at through this lens. Ranni literally killed her own body rather than let it become a vessel for other people and other powers. She killed her body so that her spirit could be free. And ironically, Godwyn’s body ended up becoming a vessel for something he never would have wanted.
I’m pretty sure Miquella’s multiple gender aspects are meant to mirror or at least rhyme with Marika and Radagon as a single being. Just a thought but if you look at it from that angle, his status as the “most powerful”empyrean kinda makes sense, seeing as he is the closest resemblance to the current vessel
The problem with this is that Marika and Radagon is a literal representation while Miquella's is figurative. He wouldn't have reached this peak alchemical stage until attaining godhood which is bestowed by the Greater Will. At the same time, we are working from speculation of lore and what subject matter is being used to build it.
That would make Malenia merely a biproduct or "the accident." There was one cynical meme where it said, "With twins, one of them is always unplanned." Malenia is the "waste" that happens anytime you chemically attempt to purify something. I heard some rumors that Malenia was the "younger" twin in Japanese.
You're putting too much stock into that. It's literally just Miyazaki reusing the ideas from Gwendolyn. That's all it is, just applied in a different way. The boy that looks like a girl thing is a thing that's been a thing for years and years and years in Japanese anime/manga/game culture. It's not this super symbolic thing. It's not deep.
@@ASNS117Zero Well raising his son as a girl was more likely Gwen's insecurity at his own male children after his unnamed firstborn rebelled against him.
Re: Mough, Miquella, and the Bloody Bedchamer section - Breaking of hymens + The Formless Mother referring to a womb definitely gives new meaning to "The Formless Mother craves a wound." A very specific wound, to create a new dynasty.
One thing about Rykard: given that if you kill Tanith, you receive the Consort Mask, wouldn’t it be the case that Tanith was meant to be his “lord.” And his merging with the serpent could be interpreted to be the same as Marika merging with the Elden Beast. Same with the Malenia and the Goddess of Rot. Perhaps Rykard’s blasphemy was that he was attempting to become a god without having a womb
Could be or Rykard could just disprove the proposition that being an Elden Lord or a God is somehow gendered at all. Was Serosh or Placidusax womb-bearing in the Age before the Erdtree? If only women can be Empyrean, why did Radahn even bother vying for power over the Lands Between? Why would Gideon, The All Knowing, not know that every male Tarnished is essentially wasting their time? Or that Miquella magically grew a hymen in his belly? Why is it that Godwyn and Fia both do not become a God or Lord and Fia elects you to stand in their place as their representative?
Oooh I like that, very interesting. Though Malenia IS the Goddess of Rot, she became a God (let's say like Marika) by allowing to be consumed by the Outer God of Rot (which is like the Greater Will; a layer higher)
Another point towards the Godwyn and ranni engagement is that, to my knowledge, they are the only two characters referred to with the title of Prince and Princess. If I remember correctly, Morgott even had his title changed from omen Prince to omen king. Seems intentional
@@crowstakingoff Yes but that's after he died and became a champion for the undead hence the new title. I meant was he referred to as a prince when he was Godwyn the Golden.
Every time I watch your content, it puts a new spin on the lore and concepts I had never even thought about. The spin of why it was Godwyn who was chosen on the night of the black knives because he was supposed to marry Ranni is something I have never heard but think it all fits into place as you explain. Keep on keeping on, I appreciate what you’re doing here.
Agreed that was an eye opener for me too. I saw a sci-fi show once that was about how these aliens crossbred with humans, then crossbred those humans to make a perfect life form. Seems like something to that effect happening here
Yes to add to this theory, if you look closely on her fingers, she already have a ring on her finger. When you take her hand at the age of the stars ending, you can see that she has TWO rings. The one you put, and one that was before. So it means she was already promised to somebody else before we met her.
Godwyn the poster boy of the golden order, the Obvious next candidate to elden lord Ranni was the only empyrian who has not his sibling and not cursed.
This brings Miquella's plan for metamorphosis into focus for me. If his goal is to become a god but only women can become gods, he needs to transform in his cocoon. It's possible that his eternal youth makes him believe he can do it, too - having not gone through demigod puberty, there's still a chance.
About 17:15 he says marika goes to Radagon after the night of the black knives as a plan b. But we know because of miquella’s and malenia’s strong relationship with Godwyn, as seen in the haligtree, that the night of the black knives came after Radagon’ sand Marika’s marriage
In an earlier video, he says that he thinks the Haligtree statues depict Marika rather than Godwyn. But I agree with you, some Miquella items refer to a strong relationship with Godwyn.
Marika and Radagon fusing is very reminiscent of the cut quest line where one of the silver tears fuses with you and travels with you. Add the fact that the silver tears were created in an attempt to create a lord and theories that radagon was a silver tear himself...
Those were homonculus pretty much, a specific race in the lore as well. Radagon was said to have descended from giants, however that was even possible, which throws that out of the window.
@@blumiu2426 why? It's easy to imagine some giant essence/DNA served as a basis. Given the differences in size and features I think it's unlikely he was actually born from (half) giants.
This! So much this! I'm surprised more people haven't noticed it. Radagon is Marika's Mimic Tear, there's so much evidence in the game that supports this too. Such as: "This spirit takes the form of the summoner to fight alongside them, but its mimicry DOES NOT extend to imitating the summoner's will. Mimic tears are the result of an attempt by the Eternal City to forge a lord." (Hence Radagon being made a Lord and him trying to repair the ER after Marika destroyed it, this betrayal is how Asimi turns on us in that cut quest. The Nox are also the same as Numen, Marika's own people, so her having access to the tears makes sense.) "Incantation of the Golden Order fundamentalists. One of the key fundamentals. Heals all negative statuses, dispels special effects, and reveals MIMICRY in all its forms. The fundamentalists describe the Golden Order through the powers of regression and causality. Regression is the pull of meaning; that all things yearn eternally to converge." (This is the spell that reveals Radagon is Marika) "Golden veil of intricate design. Uses FP to mimic nearby objects. When Godrick was hounded from Leyndell, the Royal Capital, this was one of a multitude of treasures he took with him. Also known as "MARIKA'S MISCHIEF"." (Suggesting she utilized mimicry herself) Marika partook in mimicry to make Radagon, he's a clone of her, and then later on they merged before they shattered the ring, as supported by Marika's dialogue here: "In Marika's own words. O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine OTHER SELF." Proving even before they merged and shattered the ring, he was already a mimic of her beforehand, which is probably why they could merge into one to begin with.
I actually have a different idea for why Radahn wasn’t chosen to be an Empyrean. When an Empyrean becomes a god, it’s not just the body housing the Elden Ring that changes- the new god is also meant to usher in a new age. An Empyrean represents a potential change to the current order. Marika brought about the Age of the Erdtree, the Gloam-Eyed Queen likely would have ushered in an Age of Death, Ranni has the potential to bring about the Age of Stars, Melanina is the vessel which can create an Order of Rot, and Miquella is trying to bring about a new age of unalloyed gold before Mohg tries to use him to create his dynasty of blood. Radahn is not a vessel of change- quite literally the opposite. He learns gravity magic so he doesn’t have to change which horse he rides. He holds the stars in place, preventing fate from moving forward. Even in how he presents himself, he emulates his heroes rather than carving out a unique identity for himself. I think the reason Radahn isn’t chosen to be an Empyrean is because he isn’t a vehicle for change. He would rather hold the world in stasis than allow it to move forward. I’ve also seen people ask why Godwyn, the literal golden child, isn’t an Empyrean, and I think it’s for a similar reason. It’s precisely because he’s the perfect son of the Golden Lineage that he isn’t fit to be an Empyrean. He represents the best of the current age, not the potential of a new one. I don’t think an Empyrean has to be female, just like a Lord doesn’t have to be male. I actually believe that Radagon was always a part of Marika and that she became a rebis/divine hermaphrodite upon becoming a god. So if becoming a god entails becoming both male and female in one, then it really doesn’t matter which sex that god was originally. There is undeniably feminine/motherhood symbolism associated with the Empyreans we know of, but I think it’s just that: symbolism. The birth of a new age and all that.
I feel like this kind of aligns with his actions as well. While all the Empyreans were meant to bring change, Radahn actively opposed it, holding the stars at bay and such, even if it was for an apparently good cause. Ofc I might be wrong, I haven't played ER in a while
The rebis godhood theory makes sense. The birthing of an age, of a cycle of life, requires potential, not a womb. I don't think biology has much to do with cosmic energy shenanigans. It also feels like an element Miyazaki simply does away with in the literal for the demigods... bodily coupling is for the beastmen. Even Godric is making new life from old parts, but he sucks and has no taste.
I don't know why I'm surprised that this channel, of all channels, finally came up with a compelling, internally-coherent explanation for the spear through Marika's body, which has tantalized me ever since the very first time I saw it. Of COURSE Tarnished Archaeologist did. Of course.
I see a major parallel with the life cycle of Angler Fish. angler fish reproduce when the male and female fish physically fuse their bodies together. The male slowly loses all of its former identity and becomes basically just a means for reproduction. Its very in character for Radagon to choose to forfeit his former identity to become marika, while Marika remains at the top. Of course this falls apart when marika turns against the elden ring and radagon fights to preserve it. The angler fish motif can be interpreted from the Elden Beast itself, with its glowing tentacle and fish fins.
This guy is actually ruining most of the other lore channels for me. It's like they are just scratching the surface while this dude is miles deep unearthing gold(no pun intended)
@@min24434 Seriously! I can't even watch most other lore channels because they just state the obvious, and it doesnt help that they're boring and dry when it comes to their narration imo. The only lore channel I watch outside of this one is Vaati, but he's pretty much one of the OG's of FromSoft Lore channels, so he's an exception for me. Especially since his more recent videos are more cinematic, making it fun to watch.
I never thought of Godwyn being Ranni’s betrothed. It makes perfect sense, further uniting the Erdtree and Liurnians through the blood of the Elden Lord, a god, and champion, and the Queen of Caria. Great video!
Until you wonder why she had to kill Godwyn instead of just killing herself. Better yet, Godwyn was not the only one slain during that night. Ranni killed herself plus the entire golden lineage just to refuse a marriage? I don't remember the game itself offers any hints on this drama.
@@AnhTran-bp1eo She wanted to resist the will of the Greater Will. She killed her own body to resist the two fingers, and she killed Godwyn to resist becoming a part of the golden lineage. I think it’s also implied that it had to add up to a “full death” so if she only wanted to die in body someone else had to die in spirit. Who better than her link to the golden order?
One of the most disturbing things in Elden Ring is that it says “The Greater Will abandoned the Lands Between” which is such a terrifying thought that’s like God, Ra, Odin, or Zeus just leaving
I think when they say "abandoned" they don't mean the greater will actually left the lands between I think it just means the greater will removed it's influence from the lands between
@@nickperri6571 based on the final battle, where the Elden Beast, as the purest vessel for the Greater Will (basically, the Elden Beast IS the Greater Will, but it’s a tiny bit more complicated than that), we are transported to some sort of realm that is connected to the Erdtree, while being inside the Erdtree. You can see dozens, possibly innumerable other great trunks of gold, of other Great Trees. This would appear to suggest that the Greater Will is “planting” other Great Trees in other realms, and they all connect to the Greater Will. Each Tree represents the connection, and likely, dominion the Greater Will has over other realms/worlds. The Numen possibly came to our world through this connection, as they are from another world, and since they are so similar to Humans, it’s likely the world they are from originally was also one where the Greater Will was God there too. In essence, the Greater Will doesn’t “go” anywhere, it is in all places at the same time, at least where the Erdtree’s are connected. This is based on the Abrahamic concept of how the Absence of God is the true Hell. There is no such thing as “evil”, but the lack of God’s attention or notice is so terrible and cruel, it is the worst kind of existence imaginable. So the fact that the Greater Will is still there, still technically present in the Lands Between, but simply has stopped looking after and caring about life, makes the situation all the more horrible. The Greater Will *could* help everyone and fix the world, it is just deciding/choosing not to.
I still wonder what happened to Miquella and Melania’s shadows, maybe they had simply not been given theirs yet, though it’s said that Ranni was given Blaidd when she was still a child and they were raised together.
That is, personally, one of the most interesting bits of lore. Empyreans have Shadows, which are typically a) male, b) wolfish in nature and c) considered related to their Empyreans. Maliketh was "said to be Marika's Half-brother" and Blaidd being "treated as Ranni's Cousin." Either we haven't seen Miquella, Malenia, and the Gloam-Eyed Queen's Shadows, or perhaps they didn't have Shadows, possibly because they aren't really Empyreans or because Empyreans don't technically *need* Shadows. No matter how you slice it, its interesting. And it raises some fun questions when you look at the lore from the perspective TA raised in this vid.
Several days ago I wrote to my friend my theory that Ranni was the closest candidate for replacing Marika and Godwin was most possible candidate for her husband. And now I see this video. Kinda insane.
It makes sense when you consider that she’s the eldest of the current Empyreans. Though I wonder if she would’ve replaced Marika, or just become another god to expand the pantheon.
Yes and to add to that, she already have a wedding ring on her finger before you meet her. At the end when she's giving you her hand, you can watch two wedding rings on her finger. So it means she was already promised to somebody else before we met her.
It's caused me to seriously wonder who the consorts of Miquella and Malenia were. Could it be possible that the fight between Malenia and Radahn wasn't one over the stars, but what is effectively a divorce? Or Malenia thought that Radahn kidnapped Miquella to make him a consort?
I have had this same thought. To add, I think there is something with hair colors. Mercia and Radigon are blonde and red, Miquella and Melinia are blonde and red, Godwin and Ranni are blonde and red. Adding copper to gold creates a stronger alloy. There HAS to be something there
God, with each video you manage to one-up the last in terms of new revelations that I never even thought to consider. Why would Godwyn be Ranni's target for the loosing half of her ritual, why are all the empyreans female (+ Miquella's curious case), why is Marika's spear wound oddly placed considering the obvious reference material... keep up the good work, mates, we'll have this game unraveled yet
It still doesn't explain why was Godwyn the target. Based on what we know godwyn had no say in anything and ranni could've liberate herself from that burning by killing the soul of any other person.
@@manuelsilva6244 The answer could be no more than just a sense of loathing. Both in terms of loathing her betrothal and loathing the golden lineage and the order he stood for.
Godwyn was probably marika favourite child, and the only demigod that lived in leyndel (twins are in helphael, Ranni in caria, radanh caleid, rykard gelmir) and when the black knife come to kill, they killed him. In the trailer if I remember it is said that marika was pushed to the brink, it is obvious godwyn dead had a huge impact.
“Why are all empyrean female” first it’s not true, miquella is male. secondly we never told of other empyreans or gods as marika, But still there were other gods as marika before marika herself. placidusax is waiting for his/her (his two heads have different gender, so I don’t know if it’s he/her) and since only empyreans can become gods, then before marika there were empyreans that could been male in the past, but we’re not told of.
This might be the best single Elden Ring lore video ever. You do such an incredible job of bringing together real historical fact, a detailed reading of the game, attention to it's narrative preferences and a very elegant way of letting these discoveries speak for themselves. I feel like I have an entirely new appreciation of the game, even though I beat it over a year ago. Understanding how Maliketh fits into Marika's story and her final fate, and understanding what he does as an act of terrible mercy is incredible. Furthermore, now that the DLC is out, all of Mogh's intentions become much more interesting. What a great channel, can't wait for more!
One thing I’m curious about still is Saint Trina being associated with sleep. Could Saint Trina be Miquella’s alter dream self that can take over in the waking world sending Miquella to the dream?
Thinking the same thing. Miquella is two people in one body, similar to his parents. Since only women can become Gods, switching places from dreams to the physical makes sense. St Trina can be given her own body, while perpetually young Miquella can remain in the dream world. Marika and Radagon united to create a new lineage, and Miquella + St Trina have to split in order to do the same.
I always assumed that spear in marikas abdomen was supposed to be an amber starlight shard since those are specifically mentioned to control the fate of gods.
The spear is probably inspired by the Spear of Longinus from Evangelion, which is a weapon used to subdue and kill angels. The Spear of Longinus is itself inspired by the Lance of Longinus, which was used to pierce Jesus side to check if he had died from his crucifixion. Marika’s general visual characterization is an allusion to Christ, and, in spite of the fact that the whole “spear of Longinus” thing is derived from Christian myth, it seems to be more directly paralleled by its interpretation in Evangelion than the biblical source from which the Evangelion counterpart was derived.
Or maybe Miquella has a female body, but a masculine identity. The fact that he has the body of a child makes it very different to distinguish his features. From Software have done something similar before with Gwendolyn.
I never noticed Marika's wound is reflected on the Elden Beast. That's incredible. Another parallel to Sekiro too, where the divine dragon has wounds similar to Wolf and Kuro
I think that you’re overlooking a few crucial details here. One: Malenia becomes Goddess of Rot without a consort; Two: Ranni was an Empyrean at birth, and Radagon was already Marika when he married Rennala. There is really no evidence that Radagon became Marika after being someone else, rather than always being a form of Marika. I also think that Miquella being male, even if he is symbolically feminine, is important: It tells us that this is a symbolic and metaphysical femininity, not a literal requirement. I don’t disagree that marriage in the Lands Between is fundamentally modeled on the God/Lord relationship, but this reading of the text which frames Marika as basically without agency and lashing out at the Elden Beast has always been a stretch to me. Marika’s ‘despair’ is related in the text each time to the death of those she cared about - Godwyn, Miquella - and the end of her age, the Golden Order she authored. Marika desired ‘an end that should not be,’ and for you to slay a god. Roderika expressed this clearly - “slay the god Marika, who cursed us all.” Marika’s disagreement with her feudal superior, the Elden Beast, is (in this reading) that she wishes to die, but she’s supposed to be eternal. Quite similar to Ranni that way! Consider also: her womb-impaling crucifixion could be after the creation of Melina, a daughter intended to burn the Erdtree.
Really, the sticking point here is that we really don’t have evidence Radagon fused with Marika, rather than already being her. We can see in the Minor Erdtree Church dialogue from Marika that she too was thinking deeply on the Golden Order, attempting to understand it more than those around them. The ‘fusion’ theory would be more believable if Marika and Radagon had separate bodies in the final confrontation, as their fusion could be split, but instead they share the same body. I think the point about Radagon’s incompletion is good, but it’s being taken in a direction I find hard to credit.
@@andrewbowen2837 “Demigod” is a political category; “Empyrean” is not (or not only). Godfrey became a demigod when he married her, and he certainly didn’t fuse with her, so ‘demigod’ isn’t a metaphysical category. Meanwhile, Empyrean clearly is a metaphysical category, and Ranni was an Empyrean in her ‘flesh.’ So that was something from Radagon.
@@WanderedIn how do we know that Empyrean isn't a metaphysical category? It's something granted by the two fingers, not necessarily by birth right. After all, Marika was not the children of any gods, as far as we know, since she was simply a numen. Yet she became an Empyrean. It's my theory that empyreans are just powerful women, and that source of power could be either godhood or being born with great power in general.
The connection between Ranni and Godwyn is very interesting…. I’ve had this idea for a while now, especially considering that Ranni and Godwyn are the only two characters (before the construction of the Erdtree Dragon-Cult) that both DEFEATED and BEFRIENDED a dragon… Additionally, the idea that Marika would want to “conjoin” the order of the Erdtree with the order of the Moon, after Radagon and Renalla’s children became Marika’s demigod step-children
Bear in mind, given the info we received in game, Godfrey was cast out & Radagon was made Elden Lord before the Night of the Black Knives. EDIT: in regards to the spear in her side, Hawkshaw likened it to the amber shard, an object used to control the fates of gods, with Selevus intending to use it in a concoction on Ranni the Empyrean. Would it not also make sense that the Greater Will punished Marika for attempting to break from their control via smashing the Elden Ring, than to double down & remove her agency via a spear of amber starlight in her womb for births to continue while keeping her confined & controlled.
About the amber shard; we should pay attention to the descriptive words for it and for the color of the spear as they show an important distinction between the two materials. The amber shard is of pale amber. In game it is represented by the color of real pale amber, and while amber can take on a dark crimson hue it would not be referenced as being pale. The spear is also moving, and vanishes when Radagon appears; the conclusion is that the spear is either not made of the amber or it is of a later stage of amber, but in either of those cases it can be said the spear represents Radagon and redness and blackness- redness being the color that gives vigores life and blackness being the color of time if you subscribe to Hawkshaws color theory.
I've alway assumed that Marika was forced to cast out Godfrey by the Greater Will since their children where not Empyreans. She would have been ordered to be united with Radagon since his children with Rennala where viable Empyreans, only when the children where born cursed did the two fingers turn to Ranni.
@@paint4pain My interpretation is that banishing Godfrey and divesting him of Grace was the first part of Marika's plan to escape the Greater Will's influence, and in retaliation Radagon, who is more than loyal to the Golden Order, was chosen, by the Fingers or the Greater Will, as a way to slow down or entirely stop her rebellion.
I always assumed it was just the Elden Beast that pierced Marika with the spear since it has a similar attack called "Divine Punishment" that it uses against the player. The attack even crucifies the player in the same way that Marika is crucified. The spears it uses against the player seem to be entirely comprised of light, though, while the one piercing Marika seems to be physical.
@@draghettis6524 That's an interesting idea, especially with Radagon's theming around seals, barriers, and crosshatch patterns. As a Golden Order Fundamentalist he's a guardrail against her autonomy.
Was the spear a Longinus reference, or a Gungnir reference? Odin hung and pierced himself to learn runes from the world tree. Curious if you've explored that.
If it’s just one of them, I think it’s a touch more likely to be a spear of Longinus reference, given that Christian imagery like is used in a lot of Japanese media. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a reference to both these things.
Horah Loux's crucifixion in the opening cutscene has been likened to Odin's situation by people. Here I don't really see what Marika would be learning, and the Elden Beast spears you with similar lances as part of his grapple animation so he's probably the culprit
If you follow this channel, it's been told about marika was design from Mary magdalena and boudica with that influence I don't think the reference could be other than longinus spear
The way you bring all this stuff is pure class, not only the weaving together of history and lore, but the music/narration/visuals are perfection, loving the channel, keep these coming!
I take a more literal approach to Marika/Radagon - They are in fact the same person, and always have been - Their two children, Miquella and Malenia, one cursed to be in a state of childhood forever, the other cursed with a rot that would eat him from the inside, these seem like some not-so-subtle references to the degenerative effects of incest, Marika and Radagon producing children together would be practically the same genetic overlap as two full siblings producing children. Not to mention that these are the only children of Radagon and Marika who suffer such powerful curses that were present from the very moment of their births, the children Radagon had with Renalla seem to suffer no birth defects that were noted, neither did any of Marika's children with Godfrey
There's also very good evidence of Melina being sister to Miquella and Malenia... although, I have had some thoughts about how that might work that I've not seen mentioned anywhere before. I've also wondered... if merging of two individuals is something that's possible in this universe, if Miquella and Malenia could merge and effectively cancel out both their negative traits while keeping their best ones. hmm..
I don't think that God would be just for making children (Marika here is more like traditional Zeus, making both legimate and illegitimate children) but also as a symbolic-not-so-symbolic ability / anchor for land to create or rebirth sapient life in general.
Another great video with a great ending tease. That destined death spear is one of the least addressed topics in the lore, despite being so evocative. The fact that TA just added a "her womb, in particular, was to be killed" nuance really does make it even spicier. If the Elden Beast shot these spears itself, it'd be different. Yet, in EB's crucifixion grab attack, the "spears" are very much distinctly golden. The implications are also fascinating: is the piercing of that womb by destined death an arresting factor for the entire engine of life/birth in the Lands Between? To what degree does this describe the shattering of the ER, the universal reason given to the breakdown of the Lands Between? "Queen Marika is nowhere to be found" is a very suspicious statement in this context, considering everyone should very much take a simple guess. It's rather curious. Though I suppose the chaos of the event meant many a thing that we, as a player, merely glimpse, but which happened over quite some time. All of this would be under the Shattering, which is what more practically broke everything to bits. That said, I've always wondered to just what degree do the inhabitants of the Lands Between, Tarnished or not, even understand the nature of the catastrophe that has warped their world.
@@kimlee6643 Shit, I just realised one thing Melina said her mother was in the erdtree newer who her mother was. We all asumed that it was Marika for who else could it be right? What if her mother is the gloam eyed queen, then the spear in Marika could be what remains of the gloam eyed queen or atleast enough of her plans is apparent from it to guide Melina. Remember the "correct way" of fullfilling the prophecy is that a tarnished regains golden grace and gets revived in the chapel outside stormveil or a similar chapel then a finger maiden meets them and gives them the 2 flasks of tears and then they gather the great runes and reforges the elden ring. We don't get a fully intended version of it Melina "plays" the roll of a finger maiden for us and guides us to Leyndel. We need 2 great runes to break Morgotts seal on the side door to Leyndel and enter and Melina who is burned and bodyless needs us to get to the erdtree until we are in Leyndel and she ditches us. Melina uses the prophecy and us to get through Morgotts barrier. After that when we can't enter the tree Melina appears after having gotten guidance from "her mother in the tree" and tells us how to burn the erdtree. There seems to be 3 versions of guidance for us the player 1.)"the grace of gold" the savepoints and the direction they point 2.)The 2 fingers and the finger crones interpretation 3.)Melinas directions. These might seem like the same but they aren't necesarilly: the 2 fingers have no idea what to do after the thorns block the way but both the grace and Melina suggest continueing to giants mountaintops. The gloam eyed queens old motivation was to cast down Marika hence why they came to blows and Marikas current motivation seems to be to escape the emprisonment by Radagon, the elden beast and or the greater will so they could now be united in wanting to end Marikas current rule but it could still be multiple factions guiding you.
No way the night of black knives happens before radagon becomes second Elden lord. Miquella was alive to grieve godwyns death, which could not be the case if marika wasn’t banging her other self by this point. I also think there’s way too much evidence pointing to Radagon having always been Marika. The Muriel dialogue combined with the mask you find in the study hall seems to imply that Radagon was trying to hide this during his time with Rennala and there’s a whole lot of emphasis put on Radagon being a really weird choice for Elden lord - a choice that makes a lot more sense if it’s marika essentially giving the title to herself.
@@nathanwilens5611 possibly, but the way he refers to him as “dear brother” in the golden epithet description seems to imply a familiarity that I don’t think would exist if godwyn were dead before he was born. There’s not enough evidence to say conclusively one way or the other but I have a hard time believing that Godwyn and Miquella had never interacted.
@@Magiya93 Not to forget that there is also a statue of Godwyn embracing both Miquella and Malenia in the Haligtree. Whether this is literal or purely symbolic is up for interpretation, but it suggests that the relationship between the empyrean twins and Godwyn was very close, which I think could not be the case were Godwyn not alive.
Another just incredible video. I can’t help but hope that one day you’ll write all this in a book. Ever since I played it I thought Elden Ring was the highest achievement that the video game medium has reached. And really your interpretive videos are a testament to this. Thank you for your amazing work, and glad to write this as I hear that Miyazaki has made Time’s 100 most influential people of 2023, though we hardly needed that to know this.
One of the bits that I'm still confused about is that Marika is depicted in a crucified pose pretty much everywhere including the Radagon is Marika statue. She was active as queen for some time, was still active when she sent the tarnished on The Big Road-trip and took Radagon as consort. Wouldn't all of this be well before the shattering? Was she originally strung up for sealing destined death?
This is a fabulous video for the most part, analyzing historical political marriages and even citing George R. R. Martin's other works to highlight this theme in Elden Ring. The view on Ranni's decision to rebel is also great, though I feel this misses how Ranni can still "walk the path" of an Empyrean as just a soul, and how her patron, the Dark Moon, commands Starlight Shards that, as we learn from Seluvis' degeneracy, destroy autonomy. As such, if the soul can still be Empyrean, the Dark Moon rules over stars that are used to erase free will and could force births, and the Erdtree is what produces children, then Ranni might tragically still face a dire situation. However, upon Chapter Three, this video encounters a major discrepancy -- the Night of the Black Knives was long after Radagon became Elden Lord, not before then. We're told that the Elden Ring was shattered either shortly before the killings (as per the narrator) or shortly after the killings (as per Ranni in the story trailer). The shattering of the Elden Ring directly resulted in Marika's imprisonment within the Erdtree, and by that point trapped Radagon there as well. This means that Marika couldn't have possibly intended for Ranni to marry Godwyn then resorted to the Radagon marriage as a back-up plan. Additionally, with how close Ranni is to Rennala, part of Ranni's motivation likely stemmed from fury over how Marika, upon recalling Radagon to be Elden Lord, caused Rennala's trauma. If Rennala and Radagon were still married during the Night of the Black Knives, then Ranni would be lacking one of the major motivations for her deeds. As for Godfrey and the Grand Lift of Dectus dialogue, the translator Lokey mentioned in a stream that, in the Japanese text, Marika uses the same term for being cast out as is used for the Banished Knights. Thus, Marika is probably giving an ultimatum to said knights and other groups in that quote, not asking Godfrey to be assimilated into her. We also know that Godfrey and his warriors became Tarnished as part of Marika's plan to send them afar to wage war, become stronger, and then return for the Elden Ring. Combined with the task Marika assigned to Hewg, it seems that she ultimately wanted a Tarnished to kill the Elden Beast, and the Dectus dialogue is probably from a time before she had misgivings. In Chapter 4, you seem to give clashing messages as to Marika's impalement. If the Greater Will only valued Marika's body, and the Elden Beast likewise valued her body and wanted to keep her as a life-producing god, why try to destroy her womb? According to this video, destroying Marika's womb would sabotage the very purpose the Greater Will and Elden Beast would be trying to preserve. Additionally, you say that the person who attacked Marika is a mystery, but the game has a clear example showing it's the Elden Beast. In the Elden Beast's boss fight, if the boss lands its grab attack, the player character is strung up on a rune arc just like Marika was, followed by a large energy spear impaling them in the same place and at the same angle as Marika was impaled. Several smaller energy spears then pierce the player character from various directions before the spears all explode and send the player character flying. This technique is best displayed in BonfireVN's video "Divine Punishment" on UA-cam. As to the color of the spear through Marika, what if it's meant to represent Radagon and his red hair, fusing him with a spear so that he's both figuratively and literally a thorn in her side? If the spear was empowered with the Rune of Death, it'd be odd for Marika to seal the rune with Maliketh if so many other figures could readily use it against her and replace her Shadow. Even the Vulgar Militia and Baleful Shadow may have only been given that power by Maliketh long after the Night of the Black Knives and its consequences. I feel there's also a major question about the Erdtree that needs to be addressed. This video asserts that the Erdtree is what births new life. However, if the Erdtree produces all life forms, then would an Empyrean's womb even matter? In fact, the game seems to find nothing amiss with a female player character becoming the Elden Lord to Marika. Since Radagon's true nature is supposed to be a secret, the Two Fingers probably doesn't know about that, so there likely isn't an expectation that a female Tarnished would marry a now-divine Radagon either. Even the Greater Will might not know the secret about Radagon. Despite the Two Fingers initially claiming that the Greater Will is pleased upon the player character acquiring two Great Runes, we later learn that it takes ages for the Two Fingers to genuinely contact the Greater Will. This revelation implies that the Two Fingers' earlier implication of the Greater Will knowing what's happening is either a mistaken assumption or an outright lie. Apparently the Two Fingers is merely assuming that the Greater Will created the Tarnished plan and is observing the Lands Between. In actuality, the Greater Will might not be aware of anything after the Elden Ring was shattered, if it even knows that event happened. Perhaps the Greater Will shifted its attention to other worlds after first appointing Marika as a god to boot. Also, as a minor note, Daedicar's Woe, which Rya keeps on her person, implies that Daedicar was probably her mother, not the God-Devouring Serpent. The snake likely doesn't make snake men by eating people either, since we see that it hordes the bodies for power, even as they burst through its own body, and the souls are enslaved for spells like Rykard's Rancor. The snake men might be produced by some twisted mystical art instead, or otherwise not all snake men are created from the same source. Overall, this is a highly interesting video with a great analysis of themes regarding arranged marriages and bodily autonomy! However, Chapter 3 is at odds with Elden Ring's confirmed timeline and its sequence of events, and Chapter 4's two key assertions contradict each other. As a final note on the themes of political and divine marriage, with how Elden Ring takes inspiration from Welsh, Celtic, British, etc. mythology and even place names (Ordovis and Siluria), I think you'll be pleased to know that some tales from that region tell of how ancient kings would be chosen by a seer or goddess and ascend to kingship by marrying her.
Seluvis might not be using the Starlight Shards for their intended purpose, in particular the moon "guiding" stars sounds more like giving broad directions rather than puppeteering every individual. Additionally that line referred to the Black Moon of Nokstella which was destroyed (Memory Talisman) so Ranni's Dark Moon might function differently. The Erdtree definitely does not birth _ALL_ new life, see Boc having a mother. I agree with the rest of that point though, we also have no indication of Miquella being biologically female even if we can't rule it out entirely. Daedicar's Woe also suggests that at least some of the local creatures were created in a more Discovery Channel manner rather than through some weird magical ritual. As for the Greater Will we do have one more specific claim from the intro: that it "abandoned" the Lands Between during or at the end of the Shattering Wars.
@@Photoloss The point of Seluvis' potions is that they reveal the stars can literally override a person's free will. Perhaps some stars opt for a more subtle approach, but a person's very autonomy is attacked by the stars nonetheless. The context of Seluvis' overall goals just serves to showcase that forced births could happen as readily with the Dark Moon as with the Greater Will's system. The black moon of Nokstella may have also simply been "lost" because the Nox were sent underground and could no longer see it. The shards might have just been sent down akin to the glintstones too, rather than indicative of the black moon being destroyed. Furthermore, the Moon of Nokstella item has Liurnian cuckoos atop it, and with the Nox's gear saying they anticipate an "age of the stars" and a "Lord of Night" to go with it, they seem to have the same plans as Ranni. With that in mind, the black moon is probably the Dark Moon. Additionally, the Dark Moon in the Age of Stars ending seems to be a black hole devouring a moon and drawing in stars and stellar debris, akin to the Nokron spell Eternal Darkness. The Dark Moon being solid instead of transparent, and the debris streams being straight instead of spiraling, suggest that it isn't a waygate either. My view is that the Erdtree doesn't directly birth life, but instead helps life be born in general, as well as governing rebirth. Boc clearly has a mother, and it's neither stated nor implied that everyone has to go to Leyndell to have a child. Likewise, it's never stated or implied that Leyndell assigns children to people. Yeah, Daedicar's Woe implies some pretty messed up stuff. As for the Greater Will, the intro does say the Greater Will seemingly abandoned the Lands Between upon the Elden Ring breaking and the Shattering beginning. However, in light of the Two Fingers' unreliability or outright lie, the Greater Will might have actually not been observing at the time. Events involving individuals within the Lands Between, and the order in which those events happened, are more feasible for the narrator, who speaks like he lives in the setting, to know as well. In contrast, whether the Two Fingers truly know what the Greater Will is doing, or if the Greater Will gave a direct message or sign to anyone, might be harder to discern for someone in the narrator's position.
@@nightscout9979 We don't need Seluvis for the general ties, Radahn already demonstrates that. My point is that _both_ of those cases might be a misuse of something which simply exists in the world's cosmology. Imagine if some random guy got ahold of the threads of fate from Greek mythology, except instead of being controlled by the Moirai they're simply physical manifestations of the world's causality. I agree Ranni does not take any precautions against further similar abuse though. _"Said to be a fragment of the black moon that once hung above the Eternal City."_ - that seems pretty clear to me, "the Eternal City" refers to the underground location not its inhabitants. Ranni definitely built upon the legacy of the Nox and the Eternal Cities no doubt about that, but I do not believe they are still 100% aligned. If they were we would not have to fight through said Eternal Cities to retrieve the Fingerslayer Blade. As for births Melina does make it sound as if having a mother is somewhat unusual overall rather than just something she herself did not experience. Otherwise she should have spoken up regarding Rennala and Ranni and probably a few other people. I agree we can't rely on the narrator 100% but we do at least have that statement. There must have been _some_ kind of more direct indication of the "abandonment" otherwise the narrator would not state a causal link. My guess is that the Sites of Grace and/or the golden Erdtree faded from the sight of most people around this time leaving it ambiguous as to whether that truly was the direct action of the Greater Will.
@@Photoloss Radahn seals the stars, but the full scope of what the stars' "fates" really are doesn't become clear without Seluvis' quest, IMO. Starlight Shards, Amber Starlight, it's something that turns someone into a puppet to varying degrees, infringing on their autonomy and free will. Even Nokron used Starlight Shards in that regard. It's also disturbing that Seluvis implies Liurnian culture featured these slaves too, with "access" being tiered based on social standing. Even without Starlight Shards, Liurnia seems to have kept Albinaurics as a slave class to boot, judging from Pidia, who is given an unsavory job and isn't even acknowledged (as his real self) by other characters. Furthermore, Rykard, a Carian royal, seems to have specifically tortured Albinaurics in part of the Volcano Manor, even creating the Black Dumplings and flaying a second generation Albinauric to make a mask out of spite. While Rykard is quite sadistic and degenerate in general, his horrific treatment of Albinaurics probably stemmed from growing up in Liurnia. The Albinauric Shield even says that the Albinaurics' greatest enemies were sorcerers. I agree that Ranni and Nokron might not be entirely on the same side, but they idealize the same powers and ideas, and with the control the black moon/Dark Moon can exert, there's a risk they might end up as unwilling allies. As for their differences, the Nox might simply not want to hand over the Fingerslayer Blade, perhaps thinking that killing a Two Fingers risks drawing the Greater Will's attention again like the first time the blade was used. In contrast, Ranni wants her Two Fingers dead before she'll bring about the Age of Stars. Regarding Melina, I believe she's thinking of her unique existence compared to how Boc was born. Even if the way Boc was born is the standard, Melina is still only familiar with her own upbringing. Furthermore, Melina is amnesiac at the time, so she doesn't entirely recall her childhood and some of her feelings. I'm not sure if she'll comment on Boc after she makes it to Leyndell and presumably meets with Marika again, regaining her memories. We do have the statement from the narrator, but it could have been a misinterpretation of something that occurred because of Marika's punishment. Alternatively, it was a Two Fingers declaration. As for the Erdtree, we can clearly see that it's actually intact and made of wood once Maliketh is defeated, so I don't think the Erdtree faded from anyone's sight. Even the story trailer seems to feature some brown sections of the Erdtree despite the tree glowing gold during the panning shot in the attack on Leyndell. The Erdtree might genuinely be bioluminescent.
So, it was their wedding night? That seems to be the only way to carve the rune of death on their bodies at the same time. Carve the rune at the moment they were about to be joined. “When two becomes one” The Golden Wedding by GRRM… GodwynRanniRadagonMarika, it can’t be that obvious, right?
Mind blown! It also makes sense how a badass like Godwyn was taken out because It was basically a Red Wedding scenario. The other members of his lineage would have been in attendance for the ceremony and easy pickings for BK assassins. Add in GRRM's writing a lot of the backstory and you got yourself a solid theory
I find it unlikely, because Ranni's body is the locked in the divine tower, and while we don't know where godwyn was killed, most likely in stormveil tho, would be strange he recieve a buried and she not if they die together
Somewhat unrelated: Miyazaki is known to be a fan of and take inspiration from Final Fantasy series among many others. Some time after playing Elden Ring I've been replaying Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2 and noticed that one of the crafting items was called "Astrologer's Aid" I didn't think too much of it yet because star signs and constellations are a huge theme in Ivalice Alliance part of Final Fantasy franchise which included FFTA2. When I actually crafted the item in question, it's true name was revealed to be Empyrean Armlet. I thought that it was a neat coincidence until I read what it did. it made it's wearer immune to "stop" status effect. Stop in this game is time or fate itself stopping for the one afflicted and there are very few ways in the game to prevent or cure it. I just thought this was very interesting and wanted to share.
If Marika, The Eternal, didn't use The Eternal City's knowledge in an attempt to craft a mimic tear artificial lord (Radagon), I would be shocked at the needless trail of breadcrumbs left pointing towards that conclusion. Marika already clearly wanted a way out of her god-head position by the time she sent Godfrey and the Tarnished out of The Lands Between, so the next logical step towards that goal would be using knowledge, from her namesake's Eternal City, to craft a replacement "clone" to house the disdainful red hair of the fell god's curse or at least take over as the Elden Ring's puppet so she could live with Godwyn in peace. Her plan just blew up in her face because the mimic tear was even easier for the Elden Beast to control than the being it mimicked, and Radagon sealed them both away once the Elden Beast fully took over. It's easier for me to believe that a Mimic Tear clone of "Marika, The Eternal" crafted through knowledge from "The Eternal City" (where Marika has known ties to the Black Knives) spawned Radagon into The Lands Between, than it is for me to believe the answer to "Radagon is Marika" needs to be pulled from information sourced outside of the game itself like alchemical manuscripts or historical tropes. Call me crazy, but I think the game gives us all of the information we need to work with to answer narrative questions before we start digging into the real world for answers. I just have my fingers crossed that Radagon isn't supposed to be a clone of Godwyn, considering G. R. R. Martin's involvement. -Side note: I love your content and I can't wait to see what Tarnished Archaeology there is to delve into within the Shadow of the Erdtree.
This channel consistently provides the best analytic content, or "infotainment", in the Elden Ring sphere. People who enjoy decoding souls lore should really look into masonry
How does malenia fit into this? She's an empyrean, but can ascend to the goddess of rot without choosing a lord. Unless you're arguing that by succumbing to the rot, she's "marrying it." But in that case she would be marrying the outer god of rot, who's already a god and wouldn't take the lord title
This is a fantastic explanation for the sometimes murky narrative of events in Elden Ring. Each of your videos I am left shaking my ahead thinking 'aha!' because of the extremely thoughtful exploration of story elements in this game. Keep it up 👏
Empyreans are a water-steel type of penguin pokemon.. their base form are usually given out as starters for beginner pokemon trainers.. oh wait thats Empoleon
I'm not sold on the idea that Radagon was just a random dude who got fused with Marika. His children with Renala are very much demigods (as in they show supernatural powers above those available to regular mortals in the world), those are not just titles they got from their father getting married into the royal house. It seems more likely that Radagon was always Marika. Additionally, turtle pope tells a story of how an artist doing a sculpture of Radagon (while Radagon was still a husband to Renala) discovered some secret about him. And we all know what that secret is.
Have you considered before fusing that Radagon might have been (and get ready to barf) Marika's brother. This goes back to the Red King and White Queen characters found in alchemy who are brother and sister and have an incestuous relationship before forming into the Rebis.
I think that Marika became Radagon after she removed the rune of death from the Elden Ring (it would also explain his red hair, since that rune is also red). Since she is its bearer, it's safe to assume that changing it would also change its "host". Also, in Japanese, his bossfight is named "Radagon, Golden Order" and not "Radagon of the Golden Order", and Marika doesn't call him "royal hound of the Golden Order" but "dog of the Golden Order" to mock him.
In that way, Miquella is perhaps the most like their mother; a being who is actually two beings, one male one female. If you want to be technical, if the theory of the video is correct, Miquella (much like Radagon) was never the Emperyan, St. Trina was. On the subject of Renala's children, you could make an argument of none of her children being born demigods. Rykard was only supernaturally strong by fusing with a giant snake. Ranni was only an exceptional sorceress. Radahn is just a big guy (by no means rare in the lands between) who learned gravity sorcery.
@TheRisky9 ... The issue I'd have with that theory is that nowhere is Rad hinted at being Marika's brother ... he's not said to be a prince or even nobility prior to becoming Lord, but merely a champion.
It's absolutely wild to me how all your theories and analyses make so much sense and yet they still blow my mind when you unveil them. Fromsoft is masterful at hiding details that, when, uncovered, unfold like a Scarlet Aeonia to reveal so much more than I could have expected nestled within. It's humorously fitting that it takes a real-life archeologist to dig up the hidden secrets of the Lands Between. Keep up the fantastic work; I'll continue gleefully devouring everything you uncover.
Knowing that Ranni wasn't just resisting the plans of the greater will, but was actually trying to escape her fate as nothing more than an object used for reproduction against her will, I find myself agreeing with Ranni even more now. It's truly a horrible fate and she was only able to gain a choice in the matter by effectively killing herself, making her story all the more tragic.
In so doing, she killed Godwyn and turned him into an abomination. By all the stories we get, Godwyn was a good guy, so much so that his once nemesis Fortissax became such a close friend. It also wasn't Godwyn who made the rules either, but he sure got fucked. And if only it ended at that. By choosing to free herself this way, it birthed deathroot, in the process creating mindboggling amounts of fear, pain and suffering to the lands between. Like what is up with her and Malenia, who just ups and decide to cause so many people to suffer? Surely there must have been other less collaterally damaging methods to get what they want. Does the ends really justify the means in their case?
While the timeline wherein the Night of the Black Knives is separated from the Shattering by Radagon's entire reign is interesting, I don't think it fits. For example, Morgott was the one who engineered the Sentry Torch to prevent invisible assassins from being as big a threat, while presumably Radagon would've taken the lead had he still reigned long enough to conceive and raise the twins. Also, it seems odd to frame the fusion of Marika and Radagon as willful on Marika's part given in Marika's words follow it up with 'let us be shattered both' - hardly someone who seems happy with the circumstances.
I have my doubts on the idea that a God needs to be able to birth new life. Mainly because I don't buy the Miquella explanation, and also because at the end of Ranni's questline she does become a God, and we become her Lord, but she does so with the barren body of a doll. Maybe it's only a thing of the two fingers, there are other kinds of order, after all.
Closest bet to who lanced Marika is Malekith (and the mind-control the Greater Will exerted over Shadows of an Emperyean). He had control over the Rune of Destined Death as well. Plus consider just how badly mauled Marika and Radagon look when you see them, as if *they fought someone with the power to destroy them*
But, that would imply that Maliketh, being controlled by the Two Fingers/Greater Will, lanced Marika AND the Elden Beast, meaning the Greater Will also attacked itself in this manner. I’m not saying this to discredit your idea, but it does bring up an interesting consideration: Would the Greater Will attack itself to punish or try to correct Marika’s actions? If that’s true, then was it an act of self-preservation of the Greater Will, because Marika could have harmed them, or was it an attempt for the Greater Will to retain it’s slipping hold, it’s Order, over the Elden Ring and the Lands Between. It could be a sign that the Greater Will is afraid of losing power and being replaced by another God, or that the Greater Will truly loves the life it helps shape, to the point of harming itself in an attempt to not see life become ruined in it’s absence.
@@BLK_MN I don't think the Greater Will considers Marika as part of itself- more like just a means to an end. After all it preferred Marika *not* to be anything other than the Lands-Between's birthing mechanism. If there's one thing constant about the Greater Will and the Fingers is that they *manipulate* everyone they are able to influence to do their bidding. It's not necessarily malicious by purpose but the Greater Will and the Fingers have no agency of their own and rely on others to achieve their goals. As to their motive, I'm leaning towards self-preservation more than a desire to avoid ruining the life they sustain. Proof of this is the fact that the Erdtree has burned at least once and the desire to stop the cycle of burning and rebirth (and the possibility of deposing the Greater Will) is what led to the Rune of Destined Death being locked away. Destined Death is and always will be part of that world's natural order but since it is the only thing capable of unseating the Greater Will through the destruction of the Erdtree, my guess is it wants to survive at any cost. I think it's closer to Gwyn's motive in the Dark Souls series- and we can consider the Greater Will as the "Gwyn" of the Elden Ring setting.
@@BLK_MN one other thing: when you feed Gurranq/Malekith all of the Deathroot you can find, he goes on a rant and asks *Marika, is this what it is to sin? Will things never be the same again?* This means: 1) Marika committed a sin which Malekith became aware of, i.e. shattering the Elden Ring 2) It implies that Malekith was somehow sent/summoned to *punish* Marika for this sin- 3) Malekith realizes after collecting all of the Deathroot that even if he accounted for all of the effects of the Rune of Death being stolen, he couldn't undo the consequences of what happened on the Night of Black Knives 4) Malekith was mislead into thinking that he could somehow undo the damage that was done when the Rune of Death was stolen and fractured into Deathroot- all the while punishing Marika in his attempt to correct that mistake. Malekith lanced Marika and deeply regretted it, causing him to flee to the Dragonbarrow and later Farum Azula.
The implication from the original E3 announcement trailer depicting the Shattering is that the damage to Marika/Radagon's body was caused by Marika herself. As its vessel, she was literally shattering herself as well, and you can hear and see their body cracking in the trailer I've always wondered about the spear as well though. Assuming the spear is of some Destined Death origin, my own theory is that Marika may have had the spear crafted from the events of the Night of the Black Knives in order to use it to kill the Elden Beast herself while still keeping the Rune of Death itself sealed (and keeping her immortality intact.) Basically a power play by her, which might also explain why she shattered the Elden Ring--maybe to draw out the Elden Beast in order to slay it? But, the plan didn't work out as she had hoped and the Elden Beast ended up using it against her. There are some gaps in this idea that I haven't been able to work out yet though
@a_new_dude7794 but that's the point. Sending Godfrey and his army away to conquer other lands was Marika's cover story. Her real plan was to eventually lead them back to the Lands-Between when enough time passed and the Elden Ring couldn't be restored by one demigod or another. The Tarnished wouldn't seek Grace otherwise and beeline towards the Erdtree. Godfrey and the Tarnished were her backup plan in case her demigod children couldn't undo the damage she did. If one of the demiglds was strong enough then the Tarnished didn't have a hope in hell of winning- but as things played-out none of them were up to the task. The Tarnished are Marika's way of evening-out the playing field with the Greater Will, who couldn't directly influence them.
I appreciate that when you hypothesize you back it up with really good arguments, evidence, and context. A lot of other Elden Ring content creators seem to just wildly speculate based on such small things.
I don't believe that all births are controlled by the Erdtree. People still got married and had children. The Erdtree birthing cycle is indeed one of your greatest discoveries, but I think it's only reserved for the Erdtree civilization, specifically as a sort of death/rebirth cycle set forth by Marika and reserved for her devotees. There were many societies contemporaneous to the Erdtree age of plenty who were at war with it. The Raya Lucarians seemed to thrive away from the Erdtree, making them not dependent on it to give birth and multiply; therefore, it is absurd to suggest that everyone came from the Erdtree. This also negates the idea of a family tree or unit, and technically makes everyone Marika's child. The demigods are probably born from her after having intercourse with her consort, not through the birthing ritual.
One thing that I find interesting about the way Marika and Radagon’s actual bodies are portrayed in game is that they seem to be literally statuesque, hollow save for the Elden ring, and made of marble. I wonder if that’s how their bodies actually worked? The womb has been mentioned but I wonder if Marika even had an actual womb. It’s just a fascinating observation of mine. Like they were made of stone, hard and resolute, but able to be undone by a single crack forming. Really love the mystery and everything being open to interpretation to a degree, Fromsoft is THE best at doing this kind of thing imo. Several companies try to emulate it, some get close, but no one can outdo From at this.
I have one observation about the sex of the Elden Lord, after all, the tarnished of no renown can be a female. So I'm not sure the sex of the Lord is inherent to their sex.
Can I just say I absolutely love the angle you take with each of these videos?? It's so unique but yet down to earth - you soberly point at evidence that is actually blatantly screaming at the viewer and yet none of the other lore-analysts I watch manage to bring it up. THANK you for addressing the spear piercing Marika, I've been wondering about its significance ever since reaching that cutscene for the first time but NOBODY else mentioned or even explained it. But EFF you for that cliffhanger I need to knoooow 😂❤
You haven't watched enough lore channels then because the spear piercing her has been mentioned. No one makes theories going that far into it, though the clear birth/womb angle has been taken considering we see the same themes appear in Bloodborne.
This all falls in place quite beautifully. I like how you don’t focuse on details of a single story in this world, bit try to explain the underlying rules and culture of the Land Between. The ideas from this video really made me remember that this story was indeed written by George R. R. Martin - all of this is so strongly reminiscent of the themes he also explored in Song of Ice and Fire books.
The idea that Ranni was betrothed to Godwyn makes too much sense. "We'll join our two houses" The house of Caria and the Golden Lineage officially joined. (Rejoined)
One thing though: did *Rennala* agree to this arrangement? Listen to her parting words after you beat her. She's imploring Ranni to "weave thy night into being". Would that Ranni came to a choice to cut ties with the Greater Will on her own, or did her mother realize this long before and passed-down this task to her?
This proposed timeline confuses me. First it proposes Ranni was an Emperyan before Radagon joined Marika, and this video seemly proposes Radagon had nothing to do with Marika before fusing with her. Then how can Ranni be the child of a god (the requirement to be an Emperyan) at that point in the timeline? Plus this timeline would seemingly mean Marika broke the Elden Ring before giving birth to Melenia and Miquella.
@@RealLifeIronMan ???? there isn't such requirement, that is a characteristic of Malenia or Miquella I don't remember tarnished say something like that, and in game never had being say such thing
@@RealLifeIronMan give me the quote, I have play the game several time and read several description, and I don't remember any place to be stated such thing
I love your content.. but the only thing I think is a little off is when you're talking about Marika/Radagan's self-fertilizatoon and the problems that occur from that being an incestuous relationship with Miquella and Melania being genetically flawed as a result.. with Miquella it may make sense with the eternal youth just being some generic flaw he was born with (there are similar real world diseases)... but I don't think Melania's Scarlett rot is a genetic issue from my own understanding and from what I've heard other ER lore content creators say on the topic.. isn't she infected by a sort of parasitic outer god of rot? So not really a genetic issue in the sense you're talking about imo. The Scarlett rot god might've chosen her because of her "auspicious birth" but I don't think it's a genetic flaw per se
The real world parallels to ancient religion and alchemical lore in this game are two of the things I find most interesting. As such, this video was right up my catacombs
I think that the observations about the personality differences between Radagon and Godfrey are great reasons why it didn’t work out. But before you got to them, my immediate thought was this-Godfrey and Marika did not produce a female heir, so the traditional medieval thought process would be that Godfrey could never furnish Marika a female heir to become a god and the marriage must be dissolved. No matter how much she loved Godwyn, the next god (Ranni?) would not be of her blood. Much as it was critical to have a male heir in our Earthly analogue (to continue her dynasty politically), it must have frustrated Marika to no end for Godfrey to never produce a female heir with her. It was critical to “obtain” Radagon, who demonstrably created an Empyrean with Rennala. Perhaps she even murdered Godwyn because of his impending marriage to the unrelated Empyrean Ranni-it is a bunch of Numen assassins that did it! The fact that Ranni and Maria’s wishes aligned May very well never have been known to them.
Ranni says she was behind all of the Night of the Black Knives, and with her disdain for Marika, Ranni has no reason to lie to cover Marika's tracks. Also, with Marika's selected title being "the Eternal", she might not have wanted a successor at all, or otherwise wasn't concerned by the lack or presence of one.
Birth in The Lands Between sure is weird. I don't really understand how anyone can be a parent if everyone, or nearly everyone, is literally grown on the Erdtree. How can Radagon, Marika, or Renalla be the parents of their children if they were simply grown on the Erdtree? Is there some form of magical consummation taking place? They consummate and then the product of their union is grown on the Erdtree? I'm afraid to even ask how Mohg intends to consummate his union with Miquella considering Miquella is male. I suppose if it's some sort of magical consummation then Miquella apparently being a femboy is simply enough to make it possible, or perhaps Miquella is also a divine hermaphrodite if his relationship with St. Trina is the same as the relationship between Marika and Radagon. I also wonder how births will work in Ranni's Age of Stars since her ending seems to reject the Erdtree and the Elden Ring. Perhaps people will go back to the old-fashioned way of reproducing.
Interesting video as always, but there are some flaws in this theory. This post is a bit long, but I do hope you read this: 1. Miquella and Malenia were already born and around by time of NIght of Black Knives, hence Miquella mourning his brother's death and trying to revive his dead soul, so Marika didn't marry Radagon after losing him and the other demigods. 2. There's a PLETHORA of evidence in the game that heavily suggests Marika made Godfrey and his army into Tarnished as the first step of her plan to plot the Night of Black Knives and subsequently the Shattering to defy the Greater Will so her making Godfrey a Tarnished for that reason definitely isn't it. I do not know why people keep choosing the purposely vague and cryptic story trailer and article designed to build hype, over the game itself that has an enormous amount of evidence making it very clear Marika is a Machiavellian type character who has been plotting the undoing of her own Order for ages and does not care about any of her kids. She did not shatter the ring over losing Godwyn, she literally had him and her other kids killed and a ghost in the game calls one of the demigods killed the same night as Godwyn in the mausoleum her "unwanted child": her motives are not that difficult to comprehend. 3. Something really odd that I've noticed that I haven't seen anyone else point out yet is the whole duality of Miquella and Malenia's Empyrean status. We are told they were chosen Empyreans by the Greater Will like Ranni, however, we are also told that Malenia is the chosen Empyrean of the Outer God of Rot to bring an Order of Rot that she was born as: and ascends to her Goddess form on her own without a Lord. Therefore, an Empyrean is not merely a godly woman used to birth kids, it is a demigod who can become a true god one way or another and has actual powers and a purpose beyond merely conception. I think Marika was indeed used by the Greater Will the way you describe, hence her "unwanted" children and clear lack of love of them: because she was forced to have them. But this does not ring true of all Empyreans, especially since Miqeulla is biologically male, some believing he may be a girl because he is prepubescent and feminine does not mean he is actually female, he is always described as a male so Empyreans can be male too and have a role outside of having kids.
Oookay.... I felt too awkward to comment earlier, but have now found the courage to return: I've always felt that Empyreans took a feminine role,obviously, but I never quite took that as a lack of agency. Sure, they can bear the Elden Ring and take a consort, but that consort and the shape of their Elden Ring is their choice. Miquella was considered "the most fearsome Empyrean",and was only caught unawares because of his half-brother's designs( or was he?). Marika banished her first consort and took another one,as you said, more suited to her plans, at least initially. In fact, this is likely why Ranni went so far: because Marika did't give her the luxury she hrself had with Godfrey and Radagon. Choice. She wasn't gonna quietly accept marrying the golden boy of the family just because he was the best candidate. She wanted to choose. As for Radagon, I feel like he was likely related to Marika before their fusion, because his marriage to Rennala "joined the Houses of the Moon and the Erdtree". in other words, he was of the house of the Eerdtree,likely the Golden Lineage. In what capacity, I do not know, but if he were a son of Marika's they'd mention it. Likely a member of her extended, pre-existing family of Numen( "The assassins that carried out the deeds of the Night of the Black Knives were all women, and rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself." Scions of the Eternal City, indeed). His red hair remains curious. Also, when you called Marika the Elden Beast's babymaker,were you being.....literal? You just put that image in my head. Help me! Still waiting for more on the Finger Schism! See ya!
This man is hands down the best lore content channel I've seen till date . The amount of detail he puts in his work makes you feel " did they really think THAT far while making this game ?!" Very impressive work man 👏 .
Honestly, this feels like you're falling in the GameTheory pitfall of making conclusions that fit the desired narrative. Kinda like with that Melina's comment about Boc and births, is just if not more likely to be intended to mark Melina's birth as special, not Bocs. Here, when she talks about life enduring and births continuing, you fixate on births and even link it, or say that she links it, to the current Order, but that's not the context of the dialogue. The context is that she's trying to persuade the Tarnished to not destroy the world with the Frenzied flame, not not buy into the rhetoric of "world is suffering, end it all" by saying that life still goes on regardless of how cruel the world may seem. Same with Marika being pierced. You just said that this is not where the womb is, but then go on as if it's "close enough" to make a desired point. But what the spear *is* going through is where the Elden Ring is in her form. I'm making this comment because a lot of your other videos are the best example of very well done scientific approach to things present in the game, but here you seem to do the Internet thing of having a desired conclusion and speculating or approximating facts to make it fit the wanted outcome.
Gotta disagree with the notion that Radagon was ever a unique individual. Marika's whole schtick is that she's trying to control the world. She usurped the previous God-Queen. She remade the Elden Ring to remove Destined Death so that her age and dynasty could be eternal. Given that she seems to really hate Godfrey... It would make sense that his beastly nature mirrors that of much of the western fandom who struggle so hard with the notion that Queen = God. In short, Radagon is a creation of Marika to show her chauvinist of a husband that not only is she the one in charge because she is the Queen (God) and he a mere Lord... But also that she can not only do what he does (allowing Marika to fight in the Giant's war that came after the Gloameyed Queen's death) but also do it better. If Miquella can "be Trina" and not needed to absorb some random woman while he is only a seedling of a God... Then Marika, a God proper now, could do the same.
Did the lance take away Marika's life giving powers, or did it regulate and therefore forcibly use them (rape)? As Melina says, births continue. Perhaps the lance was a way to force Marika to keep playing the Greater Will's game to the best of her ability.
I don't think so, since the Greater Will left the Lands Between when Marika tried to destroy the Elden Ring, hence why the Two Fingers in the Round Table can't contact it. In Japanese, for one of the trailers, it's said that queen Marika went mad (literally), so I think that the lance was just there to keep her at bay.
Births continue, but not Erdtree births. Instead we see births from the Aonea flowers in Caelid, rebirths in the Haligtree, serpentmen births in Volcano Manor, and occasional births from normal gestation like Boc (and I would assume all demihumans).
Given that Radagon fights you at the end to defend the current Order, and Marika is the one who summoned you from exile to destroy it, ordering Hewg to assist you by making a weapon to kill her, I think more agency is being ascribed to Marika than she really had.
@@Nemo12417 i think the key point here is that marika had to go behind the greater wills and radagons back to have any sort of agency because nothing else was afforded her. Ultimately the GW underestimated marika and that is how the current order can be unravelled, but that does not mean marika did not experience oppression at its hands.
Life is brilliant, beautiful. It enchants us, to the point of obsession. Some are true to their purpose, though they are but shells, flesh and mind. One woman even lost her own body, but lingered on, as a puppet.
I always found Ranni… interesting, in terms of what she wants and does. The Greater Will chooses her as an Empyrian and she doesn’t want to be so she basically creates the circumstances that (player choice notwithstanding) allow her to ascend to godhood which is what The Greater Will wants. The fact she takes off and leaves the world to its own devices is almost irrelevant because she still implements the desires of The Greater Will.
I always assumed the shard was the essence of Radagon given that it’s more of a dull red and not really flaring with golden sparks like Malikeths blade but then I remembered the baleful shadow we face and how it doesn’t have the same hue. I think when I put your theory of it being a spear of destined death and it still being Radagon together it paints this picture of Radagon being very similar to the baleful shadows that try and stop Ranni. They take the form of Blaidd, a shadow and her closest friend, so close he’s called her step-brother, and they too wield destined death. Total shot in the dark, but I like the possible implications of Radagon actually having been created by the greater will for the very purpose of controlling Marika. Which would also represent the historical precedent across most of history of men trying to control the ability of women to have control over their reproductive system. He’s seemingly entirely in her favor, but only because she’s following the order of the greater will. Once she tried to shatter the order, Radagon would almost robotically repair it, it would seem. Once she was imprisoned in the lower arc of the Elden Ring, Radagon would insert himself into her navel, forcibly killing her, but also perhaps using his own essence to leave the possibly of further self fertilization of sorts open in the future. It makes Radagon and the greater will feel extremely patriarchal despite the many feminine influences in the order itself. Definitely has a lot of historical precedent in our world.
I think the “spear” of destined death we see in the abdomen of Marika is our doing. Remember the cutscene after defeating Maliketh portrays that we unleashed destined death. Even though Farum Azula is a temple in the sky, the first thing affected is the Erdtree. In my opinion the erdtree, Marika, the round table hold, and the lands between are all connected. So whatever happens Marika/ Radagon can see and feel and that is represented when we arrive and Radagon takes over to fight us.
@@cameronstone4495 It does but not with Destined Death. The Elden Beast attacks are all golden in colour. The only people who have wielded Destined Death are Ranni, the black knife assassins, Maliketh, and your player character.
@@2ndWanderingSage Well it's not like she's actually dead, it could just be bloodstained. I think the fact that the Elden Beast has such a specific attack is just more Fromsoft trademarked indirect storytelling.
@@cameronstone4495I didn’t say she was dead, but her crucified stance is in all the statues. So that is not a new pose that came about from the Elden Beast attack for her punishment. I think the red tint in the spear in her abdomen is FromSoft showing us what we do in the lands between reflects onto Queen Marika. This is why in Ranni’s ending it is the only ending where Queen Marika disappears since the power of the Gods is supposed to be “far removed”.
A slight issue I have with your point on Radagon, it's heavily implied that Radagon and Marika were already the same person in a physical sense while he was married to Renala. This is why her children are demigods as well, and were demigods before Radagon divorced her. My personal theory is that Radagon is the product of a curse the fire giants laid upon Marika in revenge for her war on them. Their red hair replaced her golden hair. Rather than accept that, however, she divested that aspect of herself into a new persona, Radagon. Radagon is quite literally a part cut off from Marika. Hence his obsession with his own incompleteness. Even while sharing the same literal body, he is a different will, a different person, than Marika.
While I agree that the wording of that section was a little uncharacteristically open to interpretation, Radagon having been a separate entity that agrees to become a Rebis with Marika and then goes and poses solely as Radagon to fight the war with Raya Lucaria, marry Rennala, and sire the 3Rs doesn't contradict anything this video theorizes.
I'd like to add something. Radahn's great rune description states: "Radahn was amongst the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika."
@@aurallyinclined1092 In the case, what, Radagon would join with Marika but then also go off to marry and have children with Rennala before being called back to marry with Marika, IE the original thing he was meant to do?
@@unalloyedju The issue there is that Ranni is considered an Empyrean. So if we're to believe that there's a physical component to being a demigod or an Empyrean, the title simply being conferred upon them in a legalistic way doesn't really make sense.
@@RevanX77 Radagon had children with Rennala and then afterwards went to fuse with Marika. The fact that Radagon had an Empyrean child with Rennala was proof that he was special, thus he was selected to be second Elden Lord. Don’t forget Rennala who was royalty in the same sense as Marika, she was Queen of the Full Moon. The Moon is an exceptionally powerful cosmic entity in it’s own right in the Lands Between. You could argue it’s even more powerful and eternal than the Erdtree, as the Moon has existed long before it, and will definitely exist after any kind of tree. So it could confer powers that could rival or even usurp Marika, especially when combined with a grand champion like Radagon, whom we can only guess his true origins if he was not always Marika’s alter ego.
Wow some of these realizations blew my mind. The Godwin/Ranni connection, Marikas quote to Hoarah, and especially the cliffhanger hinting at the Gloam-Eyed Queen (my favourite lore topic) possibly piercing Marikas womb..
The consequent defects of Malenia and Miquella due to self-fertilization imply that Radagon was NEVER a separate entity from Marika. In real life biology, the problems with self-fertilization arise from the excessive or absent expression of genes because of the way they are recombined in the offspring . That would not happen with distinctive beings, absorbed or not by the other parent. So, if you want to use parallels to real life biology, you have to conclude that Radagon was never a different being: Marika and Radagon were always the same being --- with a dual nature, for sure, but always one entity.
Well, something like identical twins would still show very similar issues to self-fertilisation. But that still means you need a common "genetic" origin for the parallels to work even if as an adult Radagon was a completely independent individual.
@@Photoloss yes, you are correct. But as the hidden message in Leyndell in front of Radagon/Marika's statue just says that "Radagon is Marika", and because he had the preceptors wear a mask with the mouth sewn shut when he was married to Rennala in an apparent measure to keep his secret, the explanation of Radagon and Marika being two sides of the same entity seemed simpler to me. Of course, I can be wrong. Still, as you say, the problems that their offspring have would then come from them being closely related at the very least.
I knew I loved The Tarnished Archeologist the first time I heard "Agni Parthene" orthodox chant in the background. ❤ The Godwyn and Ranni engagement is my head-canon as well. He would be the one inheriting the Elden Lord status, and she would, as an Empyrean, become a goddess and the new vessel of the Elden Ring, a seemingly seamless generational transfer of power according to the will of the ... well, Greater Will. 😅😂 Would explain Rannis desperation and reluctance to be forced into such an arrangement, she ofc knowing that MArika, in spite of all her power, is basically at the mercy of the Greater Will (at the games End, her catatonic body is still shattered, and only the Elden Ring still glows within, she is dehumanized as a person to the extreme). It would also elevate Godwyns role in the assassination plot from just some random collateral damage, to actual precise assassination target of Ranni and who ever else was part of her cabal. Note, their marriage would even make sense, as publicly they were not related by blood, but were stepsiblings, as no one knew about the ins and outs of the whole MArika/RAdagon mess.
I additionally took the sovereign alliance rots from within and traces of bloody conspiracy to be wordplay that there was an alliance between blood and rot. The lord of blood would probably be an asset when you are trying make a giant magical tree that you have to water with your blood, after all. Commander Niall appears to be in the service of Mohg. The sigil on his cloak is an ability Mohg uses, but others in Sol support Miquella. His clone is in Caelid where Malenia and Radahn fought. That would certainly seem to mean that the alliance was cemented before Malenia even marched south.
Hmm... Dunno if the Greater Will actually had Marika like that just to be a "baby making machine", to put it lightly. I mean, if that were to be the case, why would Radagon and the Elden Beast close off the Erdtree with the thorns and basically don't open the thorns with you finally getting there? if Radagon and the Elden Beast were still servants of the Greater Will, then they would open the doors for you to finally bring back together the Elden Ring, but, it ain't the case. The Greater Will sends you, and Radagon and the Elden Beast reject you. You have to burn the tree in order to enter. And also there's the fact that Marika and Radagon seem in opposite sides when she calls him "loyal dog of the golden order" or something alike. To me, this all looks like some sort of rebellion happened, and Radagon and the Elden Beast split from the Greater Will at some point, crucifying Marika to have her as a "Baby Making Machine". If this was all the Greater Will's plan, why would it send you to become Elden Lord? in theory everything would still be in control of the Greater Will if that was the case.
Based on how Melina recites Marika outlining the entire Tarnished plan, along with the Two Fingers taking ages to actually contact the Greater Will, the Tarnished were sent by Marika, not the Greater Will. The Two Fingers was only assuming that the Tarnished sent the Greater Will, and upon realizing that wasn't the case, the Two Fingers finally bothers contacting the Greater Will to ask it what's going on. This is probably why Radagon and the Elden Beast fight the Tarnished. Radagon isn't on orders to let anyone replace him as Elden Lord, and he might fear either losing that power or being deemed obsolete and erased. The Elden Beast is either waiting for the Two Fingers to contact the Greater Will or, if it can contact the Greater Will itself, has yet to receive an answer. Alternatively, the Elden Beast is refusing to contact the Greater Will and hopes that something will work out because it's trying to hide its failures out of shame.
Imagine finding Tarnished Archaeologist in 5 years, when all episodes have been released. Imagine the incredible binge-watch that would follow.
I hope he creates a compilation when that happens, I'll certainly buy that!
A Tarnished Archeologist archeologist?
Had that experience about bloodborne with amazing this channel: youtube.com/@charredthermos
I think i ll do some marathons in the same way than with LotR x)
i found this channel only one or two months back and the experience was quiet the binge indeed
Both of the deaths on the night of the black knives become more poignant when looked at through this lens. Ranni literally killed her own body rather than let it become a vessel for other people and other powers. She killed her body so that her spirit could be free. And ironically, Godwyn’s body ended up becoming a vessel for something he never would have wanted.
I was always wondering why she detests the fingers so much. Now it makes more sense.
If Godwyn was her betrothed, that's a real uno reverse
I’m pretty sure Miquella’s multiple gender aspects are meant to mirror or at least rhyme with Marika and Radagon as a single being. Just a thought but if you look at it from that angle, his status as the “most powerful”empyrean kinda makes sense, seeing as he is the closest resemblance to the current vessel
The problem with this is that Marika and Radagon is a literal representation while Miquella's is figurative. He wouldn't have reached this peak alchemical stage until attaining godhood which is bestowed by the Greater Will. At the same time, we are working from speculation of lore and what subject matter is being used to build it.
That would make Malenia merely a biproduct or "the accident." There was one cynical meme where it said, "With twins, one of them is always unplanned."
Malenia is the "waste" that happens anytime you chemically attempt to purify something.
I heard some rumors that Malenia was the "younger" twin in Japanese.
You're putting too much stock into that. It's literally just Miyazaki reusing the ideas from Gwendolyn. That's all it is, just applied in a different way. The boy that looks like a girl thing is a thing that's been a thing for years and years and years in Japanese anime/manga/game culture. It's not this super symbolic thing. It's not deep.
He's basically just a mini marika
@@ASNS117Zero Well raising his son as a girl was more likely Gwen's insecurity at his own male children after his unnamed firstborn rebelled against him.
Re: Mough, Miquella, and the Bloody Bedchamer section -
Breaking of hymens + The Formless Mother referring to a womb definitely gives new meaning to "The Formless Mother craves a wound." A very specific wound, to create a new dynasty.
Incredible insight! praise morvelaira! Ive been wondering about that for a while now!
I'm gonna enjoy killing mogh even more now.
Hymen Breaker Mogh (3rd phase). Weird that the virgin abductors arent his desgn.
One thing about Rykard: given that if you kill Tanith, you receive the Consort Mask, wouldn’t it be the case that Tanith was meant to be his “lord.” And his merging with the serpent could be interpreted to be the same as Marika merging with the Elden Beast. Same with the Malenia and the Goddess of Rot. Perhaps Rykard’s blasphemy was that he was attempting to become a god without having a womb
Could be or Rykard could just disprove the proposition that being an Elden Lord or a God is somehow gendered at all.
Was Serosh or Placidusax womb-bearing in the Age before the Erdtree?
If only women can be Empyrean, why did Radahn even bother vying for power over the Lands Between?
Why would Gideon, The All Knowing, not know that every male Tarnished is essentially wasting their time? Or that Miquella magically grew a hymen in his belly?
Why is it that Godwyn and Fia both do not become a God or Lord and Fia elects you to stand in their place as their representative?
😂
Oooh I like that, very interesting.
Though Malenia IS the Goddess of Rot, she became a God (let's say like Marika) by allowing to be consumed by the Outer God of Rot (which is like the Greater Will; a layer higher)
We will create bone-marrow babies TOGETHAAAAA!!!! 🐍
@paralam2175 the God of rot isn't on the same level. Think of those gods like Kami and the greater will like the christian God
Another point towards the Godwyn and ranni engagement is that, to my knowledge, they are the only two characters referred to with the title of Prince and Princess. If I remember correctly, Morgott even had his title changed from omen Prince to omen king. Seems intentional
Great point!
I don't recall Godwyn having the title of a prince. Can you point me to where he's specifically referred to as a prince?
@@min24434 The grace by his corpse is called the "Prince of Death's Throne"
@@crowstakingoff Yes but that's after he died and became a champion for the undead hence the new title. I meant was he referred to as a prince when he was Godwyn the Golden.
@@min24434 That I'm not sure of. I don't think it really matters though, you still have that (very loose) parallelism.
Every time I watch your content, it puts a new spin on the lore and concepts I had never even thought about. The spin of why it was Godwyn who was chosen on the night of the black knives because he was supposed to marry Ranni is something I have never heard but think it all fits into place as you explain. Keep on keeping on, I appreciate what you’re doing here.
Agreed that was an eye opener for me too. I saw a sci-fi show once that was about how these aliens crossbred with humans, then crossbred those humans to make a perfect life form. Seems like something to that effect happening here
Yes to add to this theory, if you look closely on her fingers, she already have a ring on her finger. When you take her hand at the age of the stars ending, you can see that she has TWO rings. The one you put, and one that was before. So it means she was already promised to somebody else before we met her.
Godwyn the poster boy of the golden order, the Obvious next candidate to elden lord
Ranni was the only empyrian who has not his sibling and not cursed.
@@lilstamp08 show name?
@@roachies4242 Taken
This brings Miquella's plan for metamorphosis into focus for me. If his goal is to become a god but only women can become gods, he needs to transform in his cocoon. It's possible that his eternal youth makes him believe he can do it, too - having not gone through demigod puberty, there's still a chance.
Right.
Fits pretty wll with the Theory, that Miquella is also somewhat like a Mastermind in the background. 🙂
Considering the parallels to irl transition, especially of trans children, this...actually super tracks.
The plot of Shadow of the Erdtree is just the Tarnished getting Miquella some Demigod HRT
As a trans woman, I certainly find this theory appealing. I am very curious to learn more in the DLC, which should be very illuminating
About 17:15 he says marika goes to Radagon after the night of the black knives as a plan b. But we know because of miquella’s and malenia’s strong relationship with Godwyn, as seen in the haligtree, that the night of the black knives came after Radagon’ sand Marika’s marriage
In an earlier video, he says that he thinks the Haligtree statues depict Marika rather than Godwyn. But I agree with you, some Miquella items refer to a strong relationship with Godwyn.
there's a chance it's messmer
dlc can't release soon enough
Marika and Radagon fusing is very reminiscent of the cut quest line where one of the silver tears fuses with you and travels with you. Add the fact that the silver tears were created in an attempt to create a lord and theories that radagon was a silver tear himself...
Whoa
Those were homonculus pretty much, a specific race in the lore as well. Radagon was said to have descended from giants, however that was even possible, which throws that out of the window.
@@blumiu2426 why? It's easy to imagine some giant essence/DNA served as a basis. Given the differences in size and features I think it's unlikely he was actually born from (half) giants.
@@Managarm Essence or DNA? Who said Radagon was test tube in some way? In different fantasy, somehow giants rape or bred with humans.
This! So much this! I'm surprised more people haven't noticed it. Radagon is Marika's Mimic Tear, there's so much evidence in the game that supports this too. Such as:
"This spirit takes the form of the summoner to fight alongside
them, but its mimicry DOES NOT extend to imitating the
summoner's will.
Mimic tears are the result of an attempt by the Eternal City to
forge a lord." (Hence Radagon being made a Lord and him trying to repair the ER after Marika destroyed it, this betrayal is how Asimi turns on us in that cut quest. The Nox are also the same as Numen, Marika's own people, so her having access to the tears makes sense.)
"Incantation of the Golden Order fundamentalists.
One of the key fundamentals.
Heals all negative statuses, dispels special effects, and reveals MIMICRY in all its forms.
The fundamentalists describe the Golden Order through the powers of regression and causality. Regression is the pull of meaning; that all things yearn eternally to converge."
(This is the spell that reveals Radagon is Marika)
"Golden veil of intricate design.
Uses FP to mimic nearby objects.
When Godrick was hounded from Leyndell, the Royal Capital, this was one of a multitude of treasures he took with him. Also known as "MARIKA'S MISCHIEF"." (Suggesting she utilized mimicry herself)
Marika partook in mimicry to make Radagon, he's a clone of her, and then later on they merged before they shattered the ring, as supported by Marika's dialogue here:
"In Marika's own words. O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine OTHER SELF."
Proving even before they merged and shattered the ring, he was already a mimic of her beforehand, which is probably why they could merge into one to begin with.
I actually have a different idea for why Radahn wasn’t chosen to be an Empyrean. When an Empyrean becomes a god, it’s not just the body housing the Elden Ring that changes- the new god is also meant to usher in a new age. An Empyrean represents a potential change to the current order. Marika brought about the Age of the Erdtree, the Gloam-Eyed Queen likely would have ushered in an Age of Death, Ranni has the potential to bring about the Age of Stars, Melanina is the vessel which can create an Order of Rot, and Miquella is trying to bring about a new age of unalloyed gold before Mohg tries to use him to create his dynasty of blood.
Radahn is not a vessel of change- quite literally the opposite. He learns gravity magic so he doesn’t have to change which horse he rides. He holds the stars in place, preventing fate from moving forward. Even in how he presents himself, he emulates his heroes rather than carving out a unique identity for himself. I think the reason Radahn isn’t chosen to be an Empyrean is because he isn’t a vehicle for change. He would rather hold the world in stasis than allow it to move forward.
I’ve also seen people ask why Godwyn, the literal golden child, isn’t an Empyrean, and I think it’s for a similar reason. It’s precisely because he’s the perfect son of the Golden Lineage that he isn’t fit to be an Empyrean. He represents the best of the current age, not the potential of a new one.
I don’t think an Empyrean has to be female, just like a Lord doesn’t have to be male. I actually believe that Radagon was always a part of Marika and that she became a rebis/divine hermaphrodite upon becoming a god. So if becoming a god entails becoming both male and female in one, then it really doesn’t matter which sex that god was originally.
There is undeniably feminine/motherhood symbolism associated with the Empyreans we know of, but I think it’s just that: symbolism. The birth of a new age and all that.
I feel like this kind of aligns with his actions as well. While all the Empyreans were meant to bring change, Radahn actively opposed it, holding the stars at bay and such, even if it was for an apparently good cause. Ofc I might be wrong, I haven't played ER in a while
This makes less sense than the female only empyrean theory
Your theory just feels forced
@@nungkianggriyanti7082 Or maybe, you are just dumb
@nungkianggriyanti7082
The theory that the Gods are only female is the forced one here. Miquella alone proves that false theory, because he's male.
The rebis godhood theory makes sense. The birthing of an age, of a cycle of life, requires potential, not a womb. I don't think biology has much to do with cosmic energy shenanigans. It also feels like an element Miyazaki simply does away with in the literal for the demigods... bodily coupling is for the beastmen. Even Godric is making new life from old parts, but he sucks and has no taste.
I don't know why I'm surprised that this channel, of all channels, finally came up with a compelling, internally-coherent explanation for the spear through Marika's body, which has tantalized me ever since the very first time I saw it.
Of COURSE Tarnished Archaeologist did. Of course.
With what he said I'm speculating the spear was inserted because she gave birth to melina as a last resort.
Man, the point about Godwyn being Ranni's betrothed is so spot on. It was sitting in front of our faces.
I mean, it's pretty much all speculation but it's definitely an evocative idea for why he was chosen to be the bearer of the most traumatic death.
Not to mention that’s her half brother
@@Moesdef step brother* Ranni is born of Rennala and Radagon, Godwyn is born of Marika and Godfrey
But if Radagon is Marika, doesn’t that make them have at least one shared parent?
@@Morbak546 “radagon is marika”
I see a major parallel with the life cycle of Angler Fish. angler fish reproduce when the male and female fish physically fuse their bodies together. The male slowly loses all of its former identity and becomes basically just a means for reproduction. Its very in character for Radagon to choose to forfeit his former identity to become marika, while Marika remains at the top. Of course this falls apart when marika turns against the elden ring and radagon fights to preserve it.
The angler fish motif can be interpreted from the Elden Beast itself, with its glowing tentacle and fish fins.
Wow, I think you could be right. That's a really interesting parallel.
Interesting thought! You could also easily map the guiding light of grace onto the luminescence anglerfish use to lure their prey.
Tarnished Archeologist drops lore bombs video after video with unmatched consistency. And for me, this one is right among the top.
This guy is actually ruining most of the other lore channels for me. It's like they are just scratching the surface while this dude is miles deep unearthing gold(no pun intended)
@@min24434 Seriously! I can't even watch most other lore channels because they just state the obvious, and it doesnt help that they're boring and dry when it comes to their narration imo.
The only lore channel I watch outside of this one is Vaati, but he's pretty much one of the OG's of FromSoft Lore channels, so he's an exception for me. Especially since his more recent videos are more cinematic, making it fun to watch.
I never thought of Godwyn being Ranni’s betrothed. It makes perfect sense, further uniting the Erdtree and Liurnians through the blood of the Elden Lord, a god, and champion, and the Queen of Caria. Great video!
Until you wonder why she had to kill Godwyn instead of just killing herself. Better yet, Godwyn was not the only one slain during that night. Ranni killed herself plus the entire golden lineage just to refuse a marriage? I don't remember the game itself offers any hints on this drama.
@@AnhTran-bp1eo She wanted to resist the will of the Greater Will. She killed her own body to resist the two fingers, and she killed Godwyn to resist becoming a part of the golden lineage. I think it’s also implied that it had to add up to a “full death” so if she only wanted to die in body someone else had to die in spirit. Who better than her link to the golden order?
Woahhhh, that is a wild assumption..
Hands down the best Elden Ring content. Thank you again, my friend.
One of the most disturbing things in Elden Ring is that it says “The Greater Will abandoned the Lands Between” which is such a terrifying thought that’s like God, Ra, Odin, or Zeus just leaving
But where did it go? Has a new golden order been established elsewhere?
Or the very real philosophical concept of the death of God
@@nickperri6571 The Golden Order is just the current age. The Greater Will had no personal investment in that.
I think when they say "abandoned" they don't mean the greater will actually left the lands between I think it just means the greater will removed it's influence from the lands between
@@nickperri6571 based on the final battle, where the Elden Beast, as the purest vessel for the Greater Will (basically, the Elden Beast IS the Greater Will, but it’s a tiny bit more complicated than that), we are transported to some sort of realm that is connected to the Erdtree, while being inside the Erdtree. You can see dozens, possibly innumerable other great trunks of gold, of other Great Trees.
This would appear to suggest that the Greater Will is “planting” other Great Trees in other realms, and they all connect to the Greater Will. Each Tree represents the connection, and likely, dominion the Greater Will has over other realms/worlds.
The Numen possibly came to our world through this connection, as they are from another world, and since they are so similar to Humans, it’s likely the world they are from originally was also one where the Greater Will was God there too.
In essence, the Greater Will doesn’t “go” anywhere, it is in all places at the same time, at least where the Erdtree’s are connected.
This is based on the Abrahamic concept of how the Absence of God is the true Hell.
There is no such thing as “evil”, but the lack of God’s attention or notice is so terrible and cruel, it is the worst kind of existence imaginable.
So the fact that the Greater Will is still there, still technically present in the Lands Between, but simply has stopped looking after and caring about life, makes the situation all the more horrible.
The Greater Will *could* help everyone and fix the world, it is just deciding/choosing not to.
Every time I learn something new about Miquella and Mohg I regret it
Same tho
I still wonder what happened to Miquella and Melania’s shadows, maybe they had simply not been given theirs yet, though it’s said that Ranni was given Blaidd when she was still a child and they were raised together.
That is, personally, one of the most interesting bits of lore.
Empyreans have Shadows, which are typically a) male, b) wolfish in nature and c) considered related to their Empyreans. Maliketh was "said to be Marika's Half-brother" and Blaidd being "treated as Ranni's Cousin." Either we haven't seen Miquella, Malenia, and the Gloam-Eyed Queen's Shadows, or perhaps they didn't have Shadows, possibly because they aren't really Empyreans or because Empyreans don't technically *need* Shadows.
No matter how you slice it, its interesting. And it raises some fun questions when you look at the lore from the perspective TA raised in this vid.
Probably went insane
Several days ago I wrote to my friend my theory that Ranni was the closest candidate for replacing Marika and Godwin was most possible candidate for her husband. And now I see this video. Kinda insane.
It makes sense when you consider that she’s the eldest of the current Empyreans. Though I wonder if she would’ve replaced Marika, or just become another god to expand the pantheon.
Yes and to add to that, she already have a wedding ring on her finger before you meet her. At the end when she's giving you her hand, you can watch two wedding rings on her finger. So it means she was already promised to somebody else before we met her.
It's caused me to seriously wonder who the consorts of Miquella and Malenia were. Could it be possible that the fight between Malenia and Radahn wasn't one over the stars, but what is effectively a divorce? Or Malenia thought that Radahn kidnapped Miquella to make him a consort?
I have had this same thought. To add, I think there is something with hair colors. Mercia and Radigon are blonde and red, Miquella and Melinia are blonde and red, Godwin and Ranni are blonde and red. Adding copper to gold creates a stronger alloy. There HAS to be something there
AAAAAAAHHHH, SYNCHRONICITY, IT MAKES TERRIBLE SENSE, EVERYTHING IS ELDEN RING.
God, with each video you manage to one-up the last in terms of new revelations that I never even thought to consider. Why would Godwyn be Ranni's target for the loosing half of her ritual, why are all the empyreans female (+ Miquella's curious case), why is Marika's spear wound oddly placed considering the obvious reference material... keep up the good work, mates, we'll have this game unraveled yet
It still doesn't explain why was Godwyn the target. Based on what we know godwyn had no say in anything and ranni could've liberate herself from that burning by killing the soul of any other person.
😊
@@manuelsilva6244 The answer could be no more than just a sense of loathing. Both in terms of loathing her betrothal and loathing the golden lineage and the order he stood for.
Godwyn was probably marika favourite child, and the only demigod that lived in leyndel (twins are in helphael, Ranni in caria, radanh caleid, rykard gelmir) and when the black knife come to kill, they killed him.
In the trailer if I remember it is said that marika was pushed to the brink, it is obvious godwyn dead had a huge impact.
“Why are all empyrean female”
first it’s not true, miquella is male.
secondly we never told of other empyreans or gods as marika,
But still there were other gods as marika before marika herself.
placidusax is waiting for his/her (his two heads have different gender, so I don’t know if it’s he/her)
and since only empyreans can become gods, then before marika there were empyreans that could been male in the past,
but we’re not told of.
Thank you so much for putting captions on your videos!!! It means a lot and really helps with accessibility.
This might be the best single Elden Ring lore video ever. You do such an incredible job of bringing together real historical fact, a detailed reading of the game, attention to it's narrative preferences and a very elegant way of letting these discoveries speak for themselves. I feel like I have an entirely new appreciation of the game, even though I beat it over a year ago. Understanding how Maliketh fits into Marika's story and her final fate, and understanding what he does as an act of terrible mercy is incredible. Furthermore, now that the DLC is out, all of Mogh's intentions become much more interesting. What a great channel, can't wait for more!
One thing I’m curious about still is Saint Trina being associated with sleep. Could Saint Trina be Miquella’s alter dream self that can take over in the waking world sending Miquella to the dream?
Thinking the same thing.
Miquella is two people in one body, similar to his parents.
Since only women can become Gods, switching places from dreams to the physical makes sense.
St Trina can be given her own body, while perpetually young Miquella can remain in the dream world.
Marika and Radagon united to create a new lineage, and Miquella + St Trina have to split in order to do the same.
I always assumed that spear in marikas abdomen was supposed to be an amber starlight shard since those are specifically mentioned to control the fate of gods.
@@DanielGarcia-rx3kt yeah that color video was incredible!
It was the Elden Beast, it literally does the same thing to you as an attack during the fight.
The spear is probably inspired by the Spear of Longinus from Evangelion, which is a weapon used to subdue and kill angels. The Spear of Longinus is itself inspired by the Lance of Longinus, which was used to pierce Jesus side to check if he had died from his crucifixion.
Marika’s general visual characterization is an allusion to Christ, and, in spite of the fact that the whole “spear of Longinus” thing is derived from Christian myth, it seems to be more directly paralleled by its interpretation in Evangelion than the biblical source from which the Evangelion counterpart was derived.
@@patrickburke2187 Evangelion also came to mind when I saw this! Good stuff hehe
The more I learn about Mohg and Miquella, the more apparent it is that a DLC focused around them is such an impactful choice.
One of my absolute favorite Lore UA-cam channels! Thank you for the lore lectures
waking up from anastesia mid heart surgery to watch this
Hopefully they didn't replace it with a baked potato
@@soadown5 replaced it with the elden ring smdh...
these three comments are fucking delightful lol made my day
What if Mohg wants St. Trina not Miquella. I think that Miquella inherited that dual personality/body thing from Marika/Radagon. Maybe Mohg knows this
Or maybe Miquella has a female body, but a masculine identity. The fact that he has the body of a child makes it very different to distinguish his features. From Software have done something similar before with Gwendolyn.
I never noticed Marika's wound is reflected on the Elden Beast. That's incredible. Another parallel to Sekiro too, where the divine dragon has wounds similar to Wolf and Kuro
I think that you’re overlooking a few crucial details here. One: Malenia becomes Goddess of Rot without a consort; Two: Ranni was an Empyrean at birth, and Radagon was already Marika when he married Rennala. There is really no evidence that Radagon became Marika after being someone else, rather than always being a form of Marika.
I also think that Miquella being male, even if he is symbolically feminine, is important: It tells us that this is a symbolic and metaphysical femininity, not a literal requirement.
I don’t disagree that marriage in the Lands Between is fundamentally modeled on the God/Lord relationship, but this reading of the text which frames Marika as basically without agency and lashing out at the Elden Beast has always been a stretch to me. Marika’s ‘despair’ is related in the text each time to the death of those she cared about - Godwyn, Miquella - and the end of her age, the Golden Order she authored. Marika desired ‘an end that should not be,’ and for you to slay a god. Roderika expressed this clearly - “slay the god Marika, who cursed us all.” Marika’s disagreement with her feudal superior, the Elden Beast, is (in this reading) that she wishes to die, but she’s supposed to be eternal. Quite similar to Ranni that way!
Consider also: her womb-impaling crucifixion could be after the creation of Melina, a daughter intended to burn the Erdtree.
Really, the sticking point here is that we really don’t have evidence Radagon fused with Marika, rather than already being her. We can see in the Minor Erdtree Church dialogue from Marika that she too was thinking deeply on the Golden Order, attempting to understand it more than those around them. The ‘fusion’ theory would be more believable if Marika and Radagon had separate bodies in the final confrontation, as their fusion could be split, but instead they share the same body.
I think the point about Radagon’s incompletion is good, but it’s being taken in a direction I find hard to credit.
The evidence for Radagon and Marika being separate is the descriptions of the great runes of Rykard and Radahn
@@andrewbowen2837 “Demigod” is a political category; “Empyrean” is not (or not only). Godfrey became a demigod when he married her, and he certainly didn’t fuse with her, so ‘demigod’ isn’t a metaphysical category. Meanwhile, Empyrean clearly is a metaphysical category, and Ranni was an Empyrean in her ‘flesh.’ So that was something from Radagon.
@@WanderedIn how would they be fused if they had separate bodies?
@@WanderedIn how do we know that Empyrean isn't a metaphysical category? It's something granted by the two fingers, not necessarily by birth right. After all, Marika was not the children of any gods, as far as we know, since she was simply a numen. Yet she became an Empyrean. It's my theory that empyreans are just powerful women, and that source of power could be either godhood or being born with great power in general.
I think this video needs revisiting after the DLC
So good! That cliff hanger got me too, I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the spear! Thanks TA!
The connection between Ranni and Godwyn is very interesting….
I’ve had this idea for a while now, especially considering that Ranni and Godwyn are the only two characters (before the construction of the Erdtree Dragon-Cult) that both DEFEATED and BEFRIENDED a dragon…
Additionally, the idea that Marika would want to “conjoin” the order of the Erdtree with the order of the Moon, after Radagon and Renalla’s children became Marika’s demigod step-children
Pair all of this with the fact that George R. R. Martin loves his Marriage’s, lineage stuff, and brutal murders of marriage’s and lineage stuff😂😂
Bear in mind, given the info we received in game, Godfrey was cast out & Radagon was made Elden Lord before the Night of the Black Knives.
EDIT: in regards to the spear in her side, Hawkshaw likened it to the amber shard, an object used to control the fates of gods, with Selevus intending to use it in a concoction on Ranni the Empyrean.
Would it not also make sense that the Greater Will punished Marika for attempting to break from their control via smashing the Elden Ring, than to double down & remove her agency via a spear of amber starlight in her womb for births to continue while keeping her confined & controlled.
About the amber shard; we should pay attention to the descriptive words for it and for the color of the spear as they show an important distinction between the two materials.
The amber shard is of pale amber. In game it is represented by the color of real pale amber, and while amber can take on a dark crimson hue it would not be referenced as being pale.
The spear is also moving, and vanishes when Radagon appears; the conclusion is that the spear is either not made of the amber or it is of a later stage of amber, but in either of those cases it can be said the spear represents Radagon and redness and blackness- redness being the color that gives vigores life and blackness being the color of time if you subscribe to Hawkshaws color theory.
I've alway assumed that Marika was forced to cast out Godfrey by the Greater Will since their children where not Empyreans.
She would have been ordered to be united with Radagon since his children with Rennala where viable Empyreans, only when the children where born cursed did the two fingers turn to Ranni.
@@paint4pain My interpretation is that banishing Godfrey and divesting him of Grace was the first part of Marika's plan to escape the Greater Will's influence, and in retaliation Radagon, who is more than loyal to the Golden Order, was chosen, by the Fingers or the Greater Will, as a way to slow down or entirely stop her rebellion.
I always assumed it was just the Elden Beast that pierced Marika with the spear since it has a similar attack called "Divine Punishment" that it uses against the player. The attack even crucifies the player in the same way that Marika is crucified. The spears it uses against the player seem to be entirely comprised of light, though, while the one piercing Marika seems to be physical.
@@draghettis6524 That's an interesting idea, especially with Radagon's theming around seals, barriers, and crosshatch patterns. As a Golden Order Fundamentalist he's a guardrail against her autonomy.
Was the spear a Longinus reference, or a Gungnir reference? Odin hung and pierced himself to learn runes from the world tree. Curious if you've explored that.
If it’s just one of them, I think it’s a touch more likely to be a spear of Longinus reference, given that Christian imagery like is used in a lot of Japanese media. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a reference to both these things.
Horah Loux's crucifixion in the opening cutscene has been likened to Odin's situation by people. Here I don't really see what Marika would be learning, and the Elden Beast spears you with similar lances as part of his grapple animation so he's probably the culprit
If you follow this channel, it's been told about marika was design from Mary magdalena and boudica with that influence I don't think the reference could be other than longinus spear
Gideon Ofnir has some similarities to Odin, too. Even Ofnir is an alternate name for Odin.
@thomaschitham3487 yeah Gideon is Odin as fuck. An interesting example of a mortal character who was modelled on a god.
The way you bring all this stuff is pure class, not only the weaving together of history and lore, but the music/narration/visuals are perfection, loving the channel, keep these coming!
I take a more literal approach to Marika/Radagon - They are in fact the same person, and always have been - Their two children, Miquella and Malenia, one cursed to be in a state of childhood forever, the other cursed with a rot that would eat him from the inside, these seem like some not-so-subtle references to the degenerative effects of incest, Marika and Radagon producing children together would be practically the same genetic overlap as two full siblings producing children.
Not to mention that these are the only children of Radagon and Marika who suffer such powerful curses that were present from the very moment of their births, the children Radagon had with Renalla seem to suffer no birth defects that were noted, neither did any of Marika's children with Godfrey
There's also very good evidence of Melina being sister to Miquella and Malenia... although, I have had some thoughts about how that might work that I've not seen mentioned anywhere before.
I've also wondered... if merging of two individuals is something that's possible in this universe, if Miquella and Malenia could merge and effectively cancel out both their negative traits while keeping their best ones. hmm..
I don't think that God would be just for making children (Marika here is more like traditional Zeus, making both legimate and illegitimate children) but also as a symbolic-not-so-symbolic ability / anchor for land to create or rebirth sapient life in general.
Yeah, I am pretty sure that's the point of this video
Another great video with a great ending tease. That destined death spear is one of the least addressed topics in the lore, despite being so evocative. The fact that TA just added a "her womb, in particular, was to be killed" nuance really does make it even spicier. If the Elden Beast shot these spears itself, it'd be different. Yet, in EB's crucifixion grab attack, the "spears" are very much distinctly golden.
The implications are also fascinating: is the piercing of that womb by destined death an arresting factor for the entire engine of life/birth in the Lands Between? To what degree does this describe the shattering of the ER, the universal reason given to the breakdown of the Lands Between? "Queen Marika is nowhere to be found" is a very suspicious statement in this context, considering everyone should very much take a simple guess. It's rather curious. Though I suppose the chaos of the event meant many a thing that we, as a player, merely glimpse, but which happened over quite some time. All of this would be under the Shattering, which is what more practically broke everything to bits.
That said, I've always wondered to just what degree do the inhabitants of the Lands Between, Tarnished or not, even understand the nature of the catastrophe that has warped their world.
I wonder if the Destined Death spear might have been the Gloam-Eyed Queens' doing.
@@Nothrazim Indeed. And even a link to Melina, who suspiciously remembers as little as she can.
@@kimlee6643 Shit, I just realised one thing Melina said her mother was in the erdtree newer who her mother was. We all asumed that it was Marika for who else could it be right? What if her mother is the gloam eyed queen, then the spear in Marika could be what remains of the gloam eyed queen or atleast enough of her plans is apparent from it to guide Melina.
Remember the "correct way" of fullfilling the prophecy is that a tarnished regains golden grace and gets revived in the chapel outside stormveil or a similar chapel then a finger maiden meets them and gives them the 2 flasks of tears and then they gather the great runes and reforges the elden ring. We don't get a fully intended version of it Melina "plays" the roll of a finger maiden for us and guides us to Leyndel. We need 2 great runes to break Morgotts seal on the side door to Leyndel and enter and Melina who is burned and bodyless needs us to get to the erdtree until we are in Leyndel and she ditches us. Melina uses the prophecy and us to get through Morgotts barrier.
After that when we can't enter the tree Melina appears after having gotten guidance from "her mother in the tree" and tells us how to burn the erdtree. There seems to be 3 versions of guidance for us the player 1.)"the grace of gold" the savepoints and the direction they point 2.)The 2 fingers and the finger crones interpretation 3.)Melinas directions. These might seem like the same but they aren't necesarilly: the 2 fingers have no idea what to do after the thorns block the way but both the grace and Melina suggest continueing to giants mountaintops.
The gloam eyed queens old motivation was to cast down Marika hence why they came to blows and Marikas current motivation seems to be to escape the emprisonment by Radagon, the elden beast and or the greater will so they could now be united in wanting to end Marikas current rule but it could still be multiple factions guiding you.
No way the night of black knives happens before radagon becomes second Elden lord. Miquella was alive to grieve godwyns death, which could not be the case if marika wasn’t banging her other self by this point. I also think there’s way too much evidence pointing to Radagon having always been Marika. The Muriel dialogue combined with the mask you find in the study hall seems to imply that Radagon was trying to hide this during his time with Rennala and there’s a whole lot of emphasis put on Radagon being a really weird choice for Elden lord - a choice that makes a lot more sense if it’s marika essentially giving the title to herself.
Miquella was not necessary alive to see Godwyn's death. But he was alive to visit his zombie brother's still living but soulless corpse.
@@nathanwilens5611 possibly, but the way he refers to him as “dear brother” in the golden epithet description seems to imply a familiarity that I don’t think would exist if godwyn were dead before he was born. There’s not enough evidence to say conclusively one way or the other but I have a hard time believing that Godwyn and Miquella had never interacted.
@@Magiya93 Not to forget that there is also a statue of Godwyn embracing both Miquella and Malenia in the Haligtree. Whether this is literal or purely symbolic is up for interpretation, but it suggests that the relationship between the empyrean twins and Godwyn was very close, which I think could not be the case were Godwyn not alive.
But then you have the descriptions of the runes of Rykard and Radahn that make it sound like they were once distinct
@@proctormarwood Not to forget that we are assuming that the statue depicts Godwyn
Another just incredible video. I can’t help but hope that one day you’ll write all this in a book. Ever since I played it I thought Elden Ring was the highest achievement that the video game medium has reached. And really your interpretive videos are a testament to this. Thank you for your amazing work, and glad to write this as I hear that Miyazaki has made Time’s 100 most influential people of 2023, though we hardly needed that to know this.
One of the bits that I'm still confused about is that Marika is depicted in a crucified pose pretty much everywhere including the Radagon is Marika statue. She was active as queen for some time, was still active when she sent the tarnished on The Big Road-trip and took Radagon as consort. Wouldn't all of this be well before the shattering? Was she originally strung up for sealing destined death?
This one was excellent. I loved the focus on in game content, some genuine revelation in here.
Don't know how i came to love this content awake or asleep I hear you tarnished.
This is a fabulous video for the most part, analyzing historical political marriages and even citing George R. R. Martin's other works to highlight this theme in Elden Ring. The view on Ranni's decision to rebel is also great, though I feel this misses how Ranni can still "walk the path" of an Empyrean as just a soul, and how her patron, the Dark Moon, commands Starlight Shards that, as we learn from Seluvis' degeneracy, destroy autonomy. As such, if the soul can still be Empyrean, the Dark Moon rules over stars that are used to erase free will and could force births, and the Erdtree is what produces children, then Ranni might tragically still face a dire situation.
However, upon Chapter Three, this video encounters a major discrepancy -- the Night of the Black Knives was long after Radagon became Elden Lord, not before then. We're told that the Elden Ring was shattered either shortly before the killings (as per the narrator) or shortly after the killings (as per Ranni in the story trailer). The shattering of the Elden Ring directly resulted in Marika's imprisonment within the Erdtree, and by that point trapped Radagon there as well. This means that Marika couldn't have possibly intended for Ranni to marry Godwyn then resorted to the Radagon marriage as a back-up plan.
Additionally, with how close Ranni is to Rennala, part of Ranni's motivation likely stemmed from fury over how Marika, upon recalling Radagon to be Elden Lord, caused Rennala's trauma. If Rennala and Radagon were still married during the Night of the Black Knives, then Ranni would be lacking one of the major motivations for her deeds.
As for Godfrey and the Grand Lift of Dectus dialogue, the translator Lokey mentioned in a stream that, in the Japanese text, Marika uses the same term for being cast out as is used for the Banished Knights. Thus, Marika is probably giving an ultimatum to said knights and other groups in that quote, not asking Godfrey to be assimilated into her. We also know that Godfrey and his warriors became Tarnished as part of Marika's plan to send them afar to wage war, become stronger, and then return for the Elden Ring. Combined with the task Marika assigned to Hewg, it seems that she ultimately wanted a Tarnished to kill the Elden Beast, and the Dectus dialogue is probably from a time before she had misgivings.
In Chapter 4, you seem to give clashing messages as to Marika's impalement. If the Greater Will only valued Marika's body, and the Elden Beast likewise valued her body and wanted to keep her as a life-producing god, why try to destroy her womb? According to this video, destroying Marika's womb would sabotage the very purpose the Greater Will and Elden Beast would be trying to preserve. Additionally, you say that the person who attacked Marika is a mystery, but the game has a clear example showing it's the Elden Beast.
In the Elden Beast's boss fight, if the boss lands its grab attack, the player character is strung up on a rune arc just like Marika was, followed by a large energy spear impaling them in the same place and at the same angle as Marika was impaled. Several smaller energy spears then pierce the player character from various directions before the spears all explode and send the player character flying. This technique is best displayed in BonfireVN's video "Divine Punishment" on UA-cam.
As to the color of the spear through Marika, what if it's meant to represent Radagon and his red hair, fusing him with a spear so that he's both figuratively and literally a thorn in her side? If the spear was empowered with the Rune of Death, it'd be odd for Marika to seal the rune with Maliketh if so many other figures could readily use it against her and replace her Shadow. Even the Vulgar Militia and Baleful Shadow may have only been given that power by Maliketh long after the Night of the Black Knives and its consequences.
I feel there's also a major question about the Erdtree that needs to be addressed. This video asserts that the Erdtree is what births new life. However, if the Erdtree produces all life forms, then would an Empyrean's womb even matter? In fact, the game seems to find nothing amiss with a female player character becoming the Elden Lord to Marika. Since Radagon's true nature is supposed to be a secret, the Two Fingers probably doesn't know about that, so there likely isn't an expectation that a female Tarnished would marry a now-divine Radagon either.
Even the Greater Will might not know the secret about Radagon. Despite the Two Fingers initially claiming that the Greater Will is pleased upon the player character acquiring two Great Runes, we later learn that it takes ages for the Two Fingers to genuinely contact the Greater Will. This revelation implies that the Two Fingers' earlier implication of the Greater Will knowing what's happening is either a mistaken assumption or an outright lie.
Apparently the Two Fingers is merely assuming that the Greater Will created the Tarnished plan and is observing the Lands Between. In actuality, the Greater Will might not be aware of anything after the Elden Ring was shattered, if it even knows that event happened. Perhaps the Greater Will shifted its attention to other worlds after first appointing Marika as a god to boot.
Also, as a minor note, Daedicar's Woe, which Rya keeps on her person, implies that Daedicar was probably her mother, not the God-Devouring Serpent. The snake likely doesn't make snake men by eating people either, since we see that it hordes the bodies for power, even as they burst through its own body, and the souls are enslaved for spells like Rykard's Rancor. The snake men might be produced by some twisted mystical art instead, or otherwise not all snake men are created from the same source.
Overall, this is a highly interesting video with a great analysis of themes regarding arranged marriages and bodily autonomy! However, Chapter 3 is at odds with Elden Ring's confirmed timeline and its sequence of events, and Chapter 4's two key assertions contradict each other.
As a final note on the themes of political and divine marriage, with how Elden Ring takes inspiration from Welsh, Celtic, British, etc. mythology and even place names (Ordovis and Siluria), I think you'll be pleased to know that some tales from that region tell of how ancient kings would be chosen by a seer or goddess and ascend to kingship by marrying her.
Seluvis might not be using the Starlight Shards for their intended purpose, in particular the moon "guiding" stars sounds more like giving broad directions rather than puppeteering every individual. Additionally that line referred to the Black Moon of Nokstella which was destroyed (Memory Talisman) so Ranni's Dark Moon might function differently.
The Erdtree definitely does not birth _ALL_ new life, see Boc having a mother. I agree with the rest of that point though, we also have no indication of Miquella being biologically female even if we can't rule it out entirely.
Daedicar's Woe also suggests that at least some of the local creatures were created in a more Discovery Channel manner rather than through some weird magical ritual.
As for the Greater Will we do have one more specific claim from the intro: that it "abandoned" the Lands Between during or at the end of the Shattering Wars.
@@Photoloss The point of Seluvis' potions is that they reveal the stars can literally override a person's free will. Perhaps some stars opt for a more subtle approach, but a person's very autonomy is attacked by the stars nonetheless. The context of Seluvis' overall goals just serves to showcase that forced births could happen as readily with the Dark Moon as with the Greater Will's system.
The black moon of Nokstella may have also simply been "lost" because the Nox were sent underground and could no longer see it. The shards might have just been sent down akin to the glintstones too, rather than indicative of the black moon being destroyed.
Furthermore, the Moon of Nokstella item has Liurnian cuckoos atop it, and with the Nox's gear saying they anticipate an "age of the stars" and a "Lord of Night" to go with it, they seem to have the same plans as Ranni. With that in mind, the black moon is probably the Dark Moon. Additionally, the Dark Moon in the Age of Stars ending seems to be a black hole devouring a moon and drawing in stars and stellar debris, akin to the Nokron spell Eternal Darkness. The Dark Moon being solid instead of transparent, and the debris streams being straight instead of spiraling, suggest that it isn't a waygate either.
My view is that the Erdtree doesn't directly birth life, but instead helps life be born in general, as well as governing rebirth. Boc clearly has a mother, and it's neither stated nor implied that everyone has to go to Leyndell to have a child. Likewise, it's never stated or implied that Leyndell assigns children to people.
Yeah, Daedicar's Woe implies some pretty messed up stuff. As for the Greater Will, the intro does say the Greater Will seemingly abandoned the Lands Between upon the Elden Ring breaking and the Shattering beginning. However, in light of the Two Fingers' unreliability or outright lie, the Greater Will might have actually not been observing at the time. Events involving individuals within the Lands Between, and the order in which those events happened, are more feasible for the narrator, who speaks like he lives in the setting, to know as well. In contrast, whether the Two Fingers truly know what the Greater Will is doing, or if the Greater Will gave a direct message or sign to anyone, might be harder to discern for someone in the narrator's position.
@@nightscout9979 We don't need Seluvis for the general ties, Radahn already demonstrates that. My point is that _both_ of those cases might be a misuse of something which simply exists in the world's cosmology. Imagine if some random guy got ahold of the threads of fate from Greek mythology, except instead of being controlled by the Moirai they're simply physical manifestations of the world's causality. I agree Ranni does not take any precautions against further similar abuse though.
_"Said to be a fragment of the black moon that once hung above the Eternal City."_ - that seems pretty clear to me, "the Eternal City" refers to the underground location not its inhabitants.
Ranni definitely built upon the legacy of the Nox and the Eternal Cities no doubt about that, but I do not believe they are still 100% aligned. If they were we would not have to fight through said Eternal Cities to retrieve the Fingerslayer Blade.
As for births Melina does make it sound as if having a mother is somewhat unusual overall rather than just something she herself did not experience. Otherwise she should have spoken up regarding Rennala and Ranni and probably a few other people.
I agree we can't rely on the narrator 100% but we do at least have that statement. There must have been _some_ kind of more direct indication of the "abandonment" otherwise the narrator would not state a causal link. My guess is that the Sites of Grace and/or the golden Erdtree faded from the sight of most people around this time leaving it ambiguous as to whether that truly was the direct action of the Greater Will.
@@Photoloss Radahn seals the stars, but the full scope of what the stars' "fates" really are doesn't become clear without Seluvis' quest, IMO. Starlight Shards, Amber Starlight, it's something that turns someone into a puppet to varying degrees, infringing on their autonomy and free will. Even Nokron used Starlight Shards in that regard. It's also disturbing that Seluvis implies Liurnian culture featured these slaves too, with "access" being tiered based on social standing.
Even without Starlight Shards, Liurnia seems to have kept Albinaurics as a slave class to boot, judging from Pidia, who is given an unsavory job and isn't even acknowledged (as his real self) by other characters. Furthermore, Rykard, a Carian royal, seems to have specifically tortured Albinaurics in part of the Volcano Manor, even creating the Black Dumplings and flaying a second generation Albinauric to make a mask out of spite. While Rykard is quite sadistic and degenerate in general, his horrific treatment of Albinaurics probably stemmed from growing up in Liurnia. The Albinauric Shield even says that the Albinaurics' greatest enemies were sorcerers.
I agree that Ranni and Nokron might not be entirely on the same side, but they idealize the same powers and ideas, and with the control the black moon/Dark Moon can exert, there's a risk they might end up as unwilling allies. As for their differences, the Nox might simply not want to hand over the Fingerslayer Blade, perhaps thinking that killing a Two Fingers risks drawing the Greater Will's attention again like the first time the blade was used. In contrast, Ranni wants her Two Fingers dead before she'll bring about the Age of Stars.
Regarding Melina, I believe she's thinking of her unique existence compared to how Boc was born. Even if the way Boc was born is the standard, Melina is still only familiar with her own upbringing. Furthermore, Melina is amnesiac at the time, so she doesn't entirely recall her childhood and some of her feelings. I'm not sure if she'll comment on Boc after she makes it to Leyndell and presumably meets with Marika again, regaining her memories.
We do have the statement from the narrator, but it could have been a misinterpretation of something that occurred because of Marika's punishment. Alternatively, it was a Two Fingers declaration. As for the Erdtree, we can clearly see that it's actually intact and made of wood once Maliketh is defeated, so I don't think the Erdtree faded from anyone's sight. Even the story trailer seems to feature some brown sections of the Erdtree despite the tree glowing gold during the panning shot in the attack on Leyndell. The Erdtree might genuinely be bioluminescent.
So, it was their wedding night? That seems to be the only way to carve the rune of death on their bodies at the same time.
Carve the rune at the moment they were about to be joined. “When two becomes one”
The Golden Wedding by GRRM… GodwynRanniRadagonMarika, it can’t be that obvious, right?
Wow, that makes too much sense.
Mind blown! It also makes sense how a badass like Godwyn was taken out because It was basically a Red Wedding scenario. The other members of his lineage would have been in attendance for the ceremony and easy pickings for BK assassins. Add in GRRM's writing a lot of the backstory and you got yourself a solid theory
I find it unlikely, because Ranni's body is the locked in the divine tower, and while we don't know where godwyn was killed, most likely in stormveil tho, would be strange he recieve a buried and she not if they die together
@@jimfarley8542 Well, there was the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding… may be this was the Golden Wedding. Only GRRM(Godwyn,Ranni Radagon,Marika) knows
Ugh he would do that, wouldn't he? 😪
Somewhat unrelated: Miyazaki is known to be a fan of and take inspiration from Final Fantasy series among many others. Some time after playing Elden Ring I've been replaying Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2 and noticed that one of the crafting items was called "Astrologer's Aid" I didn't think too much of it yet because star signs and constellations are a huge theme in Ivalice Alliance part of Final Fantasy franchise which included FFTA2. When I actually crafted the item in question, it's true name was revealed to be Empyrean Armlet. I thought that it was a neat coincidence until I read what it did. it made it's wearer immune to "stop" status effect. Stop in this game is time or fate itself stopping for the one afflicted and there are very few ways in the game to prevent or cure it. I just thought this was very interesting and wanted to share.
If Marika, The Eternal, didn't use The Eternal City's knowledge in an attempt to craft a mimic tear artificial lord (Radagon), I would be shocked at the needless trail of breadcrumbs left pointing towards that conclusion. Marika already clearly wanted a way out of her god-head position by the time she sent Godfrey and the Tarnished out of The Lands Between, so the next logical step towards that goal would be using knowledge, from her namesake's Eternal City, to craft a replacement "clone" to house the disdainful red hair of the fell god's curse or at least take over as the Elden Ring's puppet so she could live with Godwyn in peace. Her plan just blew up in her face because the mimic tear was even easier for the Elden Beast to control than the being it mimicked, and Radagon sealed them both away once the Elden Beast fully took over.
It's easier for me to believe that a Mimic Tear clone of "Marika, The Eternal" crafted through knowledge from "The Eternal City" (where Marika has known ties to the Black Knives) spawned Radagon into The Lands Between, than it is for me to believe the answer to "Radagon is Marika" needs to be pulled from information sourced outside of the game itself like alchemical manuscripts or historical tropes. Call me crazy, but I think the game gives us all of the information we need to work with to answer narrative questions before we start digging into the real world for answers. I just have my fingers crossed that Radagon isn't supposed to be a clone of Godwyn, considering G. R. R. Martin's involvement.
-Side note: I love your content and I can't wait to see what Tarnished Archaeology there is to delve into within the Shadow of the Erdtree.
This channel consistently provides the best analytic content, or "infotainment", in the Elden Ring sphere. People who enjoy decoding souls lore should really look into masonry
It's all about rocks and ruins!
I hope you never run out of things to talk about. Your videos are unbelievably compelling
How does malenia fit into this? She's an empyrean, but can ascend to the goddess of rot without choosing a lord. Unless you're arguing that by succumbing to the rot, she's "marrying it." But in that case she would be marrying the outer god of rot, who's already a god and wouldn't take the lord title
This is a fantastic explanation for the sometimes murky narrative of events in Elden Ring. Each of your videos I am left shaking my ahead thinking 'aha!' because of the extremely thoughtful exploration of story elements in this game. Keep it up 👏
Empyreans are a water-steel type of penguin pokemon.. their base form are usually given out as starters for beginner pokemon trainers..
oh wait thats Empoleon
TA just keeps on giving. I've been watching your videos for the past week and they've all been a treat. Can't wait to catch up with this one !
I'm not sold on the idea that Radagon was just a random dude who got fused with Marika. His children with Renala are very much demigods (as in they show supernatural powers above those available to regular mortals in the world), those are not just titles they got from their father getting married into the royal house. It seems more likely that Radagon was always Marika. Additionally, turtle pope tells a story of how an artist doing a sculpture of Radagon (while Radagon was still a husband to Renala) discovered some secret about him. And we all know what that secret is.
Have you considered before fusing that Radagon might have been (and get ready to barf) Marika's brother.
This goes back to the Red King and White Queen characters found in alchemy who are brother and sister and have an incestuous relationship before forming into the Rebis.
I think that Marika became Radagon after she removed the rune of death from the Elden Ring (it would also explain his red hair, since that rune is also red). Since she is its bearer, it's safe to assume that changing it would also change its "host". Also, in Japanese, his bossfight is named "Radagon, Golden Order" and not "Radagon of the Golden Order", and Marika doesn't call him "royal hound of the Golden Order" but "dog of the Golden Order" to mock him.
In that way, Miquella is perhaps the most like their mother; a being who is actually two beings, one male one female. If you want to be technical, if the theory of the video is correct, Miquella (much like Radagon) was never the Emperyan, St. Trina was.
On the subject of Renala's children, you could make an argument of none of her children being born demigods. Rykard was only supernaturally strong by fusing with a giant snake. Ranni was only an exceptional sorceress. Radahn is just a big guy (by no means rare in the lands between) who learned gravity sorcery.
@TheRisky9 ...
The issue I'd have with that theory is that nowhere is Rad hinted at being Marika's brother ... he's not said to be a prince or even nobility prior to becoming Lord, but merely a champion.
@@RealLifeIronMan Ranni was born an Empyrean, according to her.
It's absolutely wild to me how all your theories and analyses make so much sense and yet they still blow my mind when you unveil them. Fromsoft is masterful at hiding details that, when, uncovered, unfold like a Scarlet Aeonia to reveal so much more than I could have expected nestled within. It's humorously fitting that it takes a real-life archeologist to dig up the hidden secrets of the Lands Between.
Keep up the fantastic work; I'll continue gleefully devouring everything you uncover.
Knowing that Ranni wasn't just resisting the plans of the greater will, but was actually trying to escape her fate as nothing more than an object used for reproduction against her will, I find myself agreeing with Ranni even more now. It's truly a horrible fate and she was only able to gain a choice in the matter by effectively killing herself, making her story all the more tragic.
I'm just happy I went with the Age of Stars ending TWICE. I just couldn't go for the other ones, even before finding this channel.
Remeber everything in this video is just speculation none of it can be confirmed without a shadow of a doubt
But did she really have to kill the cool Godwyn guy and many others indirectly?
In so doing, she killed Godwyn and turned him into an abomination. By all the stories we get, Godwyn was a good guy, so much so that his once nemesis Fortissax became such a close friend. It also wasn't Godwyn who made the rules either, but he sure got fucked.
And if only it ended at that. By choosing to free herself this way, it birthed deathroot, in the process creating mindboggling amounts of fear, pain and suffering to the lands between.
Like what is up with her and Malenia, who just ups and decide to cause so many people to suffer? Surely there must have been other less collaterally damaging methods to get what they want. Does the ends really justify the means in their case?
my heart skipped a beat seeing this in my subscription box honestly
While the timeline wherein the Night of the Black Knives is separated from the Shattering by Radagon's entire reign is interesting, I don't think it fits. For example, Morgott was the one who engineered the Sentry Torch to prevent invisible assassins from being as big a threat, while presumably Radagon would've taken the lead had he still reigned long enough to conceive and raise the twins. Also, it seems odd to frame the fusion of Marika and Radagon as willful on Marika's part given in Marika's words follow it up with 'let us be shattered both' - hardly someone who seems happy with the circumstances.
I have my doubts on the idea that a God needs to be able to birth new life. Mainly because I don't buy the Miquella explanation, and also because at the end of Ranni's questline she does become a God, and we become her Lord, but she does so with the barren body of a doll. Maybe it's only a thing of the two fingers, there are other kinds of order, after all.
Closest bet to who lanced Marika is Malekith (and the mind-control the Greater Will exerted over Shadows of an Emperyean). He had control over the Rune of Destined Death as well. Plus consider just how badly mauled Marika and Radagon look when you see them, as if *they fought someone with the power to destroy them*
But, that would imply that Maliketh, being controlled by the Two Fingers/Greater Will, lanced Marika AND the Elden Beast, meaning the Greater Will also attacked itself in this manner.
I’m not saying this to discredit your idea, but it does bring up an interesting consideration: Would the Greater Will attack itself to punish or try to correct Marika’s actions?
If that’s true, then was it an act of self-preservation of the Greater Will, because Marika could have harmed them, or was it an attempt for the Greater Will to retain it’s slipping hold, it’s Order, over the Elden Ring and the Lands Between.
It could be a sign that the Greater Will is afraid of losing power and being replaced by another God,
or
that the Greater Will truly loves the life it helps shape, to the point of harming itself in an attempt to not see life become ruined in it’s absence.
@@BLK_MN I don't think the Greater Will considers Marika as part of itself- more like just a means to an end. After all it preferred Marika *not* to be anything other than the Lands-Between's birthing mechanism.
If there's one thing constant about the Greater Will and the Fingers is that they *manipulate* everyone they are able to influence to do their bidding. It's not necessarily malicious by purpose but the Greater Will and the Fingers have no agency of their own and rely on others to achieve their goals.
As to their motive, I'm leaning towards self-preservation more than a desire to avoid ruining the life they sustain. Proof of this is the fact that the Erdtree has burned at least once and the desire to stop the cycle of burning and rebirth (and the possibility of deposing the Greater Will) is what led to the Rune of Destined Death being locked away. Destined Death is and always will be part of that world's natural order but since it is the only thing capable of unseating the Greater Will through the destruction of the Erdtree, my guess is it wants to survive at any cost.
I think it's closer to Gwyn's motive in the Dark Souls series- and we can consider the Greater Will as the "Gwyn" of the Elden Ring setting.
@@BLK_MN one other thing: when you feed Gurranq/Malekith all of the Deathroot you can find, he goes on a rant and asks *Marika, is this what it is to sin? Will things never be the same again?*
This means:
1) Marika committed a sin which Malekith became aware of, i.e. shattering the Elden Ring
2) It implies that Malekith was somehow sent/summoned to *punish* Marika for this sin-
3) Malekith realizes after collecting all of the Deathroot that even if he accounted for all of the effects of the Rune of Death being stolen, he couldn't undo the consequences of what happened on the Night of Black Knives
4) Malekith was mislead into thinking that he could somehow undo the damage that was done when the Rune of Death was stolen and fractured into Deathroot- all the while punishing Marika in his attempt to correct that mistake.
Malekith lanced Marika and deeply regretted it, causing him to flee to the Dragonbarrow and later Farum Azula.
The implication from the original E3 announcement trailer depicting the Shattering is that the damage to Marika/Radagon's body was caused by Marika herself. As its vessel, she was literally shattering herself as well, and you can hear and see their body cracking in the trailer
I've always wondered about the spear as well though. Assuming the spear is of some Destined Death origin, my own theory is that Marika may have had the spear crafted from the events of the Night of the Black Knives in order to use it to kill the Elden Beast herself while still keeping the Rune of Death itself sealed (and keeping her immortality intact.) Basically a power play by her, which might also explain why she shattered the Elden Ring--maybe to draw out the Elden Beast in order to slay it? But, the plan didn't work out as she had hoped and the Elden Beast ended up using it against her. There are some gaps in this idea that I haven't been able to work out yet though
@a_new_dude7794 but that's the point. Sending Godfrey and his army away to conquer other lands was Marika's cover story. Her real plan was to eventually lead them back to the Lands-Between when enough time passed and the Elden Ring couldn't be restored by one demigod or another. The Tarnished wouldn't seek Grace otherwise and beeline towards the Erdtree. Godfrey and the Tarnished were her backup plan in case her demigod children couldn't undo the damage she did. If one of the demiglds was strong enough then the Tarnished didn't have a hope in hell of winning- but as things played-out none of them were up to the task. The Tarnished are Marika's way of evening-out the playing field with the Greater Will, who couldn't directly influence them.
I appreciate that when you hypothesize you back it up with really good arguments, evidence, and context. A lot of other Elden Ring content creators seem to just wildly speculate based on such small things.
I don't believe that all births are controlled by the Erdtree. People still got married and had children. The Erdtree birthing cycle is indeed one of your greatest discoveries, but I think it's only reserved for the Erdtree civilization, specifically as a sort of death/rebirth cycle set forth by Marika and reserved for her devotees.
There were many societies contemporaneous to the Erdtree age of plenty who were at war with it. The Raya Lucarians seemed to thrive away from the Erdtree, making them not dependent on it to give birth and multiply; therefore, it is absurd to suggest that everyone came from the Erdtree. This also negates the idea of a family tree or unit, and technically makes everyone Marika's child. The demigods are probably born from her after having intercourse with her consort, not through the birthing ritual.
One thing that I find interesting about the way Marika and Radagon’s actual bodies are portrayed in game is that they seem to be literally statuesque, hollow save for the Elden ring, and made of marble. I wonder if that’s how their bodies actually worked? The womb has been mentioned but I wonder if Marika even had an actual womb. It’s just a fascinating observation of mine. Like they were made of stone, hard and resolute, but able to be undone by a single crack forming. Really love the mystery and everything being open to interpretation to a degree, Fromsoft is THE best at doing this kind of thing imo. Several companies try to emulate it, some get close, but no one can outdo From at this.
I have one observation about the sex of the Elden Lord, after all, the tarnished of no renown can be a female. So I'm not sure the sex of the Lord is inherent to their sex.
Can I just say I absolutely love the angle you take with each of these videos?? It's so unique but yet down to earth - you soberly point at evidence that is actually blatantly screaming at the viewer and yet none of the other lore-analysts I watch manage to bring it up. THANK you for addressing the spear piercing Marika, I've been wondering about its significance ever since reaching that cutscene for the first time but NOBODY else mentioned or even explained it. But EFF you for that cliffhanger I need to knoooow 😂❤
You haven't watched enough lore channels then because the spear piercing her has been mentioned. No one makes theories going that far into it, though the clear birth/womb angle has been taken considering we see the same themes appear in Bloodborne.
This all falls in place quite beautifully. I like how you don’t focuse on details of a single story in this world, bit try to explain the underlying rules and culture of the Land Between.
The ideas from this video really made me remember that this story was indeed written by George R. R. Martin - all of this is so strongly reminiscent of the themes he also explored in Song of Ice and Fire books.
The idea that Ranni was betrothed to Godwyn makes too much sense. "We'll join our two houses"
The house of Caria and the Golden Lineage officially joined. (Rejoined)
One thing though: did *Rennala* agree to this arrangement? Listen to her parting words after you beat her. She's imploring Ranni to "weave thy night into being". Would that Ranni came to a choice to cut ties with the Greater Will on her own, or did her mother realize this long before and passed-down this task to her?
This proposed timeline confuses me. First it proposes Ranni was an Emperyan before Radagon joined Marika, and this video seemly proposes Radagon had nothing to do with Marika before fusing with her. Then how can Ranni be the child of a god (the requirement to be an Emperyan) at that point in the timeline?
Plus this timeline would seemingly mean Marika broke the Elden Ring before giving birth to Melenia and Miquella.
@@RealLifeIronMan ????
there isn't such requirement, that is a characteristic of Malenia or Miquella
I don't remember tarnished say something like that, and in game never had being say such thing
@@virtem7686No, in game text says one must be born of a god to be an Emperyan.
@@RealLifeIronMan give me the quote, I have play the game several time and read several description, and I don't remember any place to be stated such thing
Did my dude here just solved the whole marika-radagon thing with nonchalance? i'm absolurely blown away
I love your content.. but the only thing I think is a little off is when you're talking about Marika/Radagan's self-fertilizatoon and the problems that occur from that being an incestuous relationship with Miquella and Melania being genetically flawed as a result.. with Miquella it may make sense with the eternal youth just being some generic flaw he was born with (there are similar real world diseases)... but I don't think Melania's Scarlett rot is a genetic issue from my own understanding and from what I've heard other ER lore content creators say on the topic.. isn't she infected by a sort of parasitic outer god of rot? So not really a genetic issue in the sense you're talking about imo. The Scarlett rot god might've chosen her because of her "auspicious birth" but I don't think it's a genetic flaw per se
The real world parallels to ancient religion and alchemical lore in this game are two of the things I find most interesting. As such, this video was right up my catacombs
I think that the observations about the personality differences between Radagon and Godfrey are great reasons why it didn’t work out. But before you got to them, my immediate thought was this-Godfrey and Marika did not produce a female heir, so the traditional medieval thought process would be that Godfrey could never furnish Marika a female heir to become a god and the marriage must be dissolved. No matter how much she loved Godwyn, the next god (Ranni?) would not be of her blood. Much as it was critical to have a male heir in our Earthly analogue (to continue her dynasty politically), it must have frustrated Marika to no end for Godfrey to never produce a female heir with her. It was critical to “obtain” Radagon, who demonstrably created an Empyrean with Rennala. Perhaps she even murdered Godwyn because of his impending marriage to the unrelated Empyrean Ranni-it is a bunch of Numen assassins that did it! The fact that Ranni and Maria’s wishes aligned May very well never have been known to them.
Ranni says she was behind all of the Night of the Black Knives, and with her disdain for Marika, Ranni has no reason to lie to cover Marika's tracks. Also, with Marika's selected title being "the Eternal", she might not have wanted a successor at all, or otherwise wasn't concerned by the lack or presence of one.
Excellent content! I'm come to expect nothing else. I'm always so excited when this channel produces new content. 😁
Birth in The Lands Between sure is weird. I don't really understand how anyone can be a parent if everyone, or nearly everyone, is literally grown on the Erdtree. How can Radagon, Marika, or Renalla be the parents of their children if they were simply grown on the Erdtree? Is there some form of magical consummation taking place? They consummate and then the product of their union is grown on the Erdtree?
I'm afraid to even ask how Mohg intends to consummate his union with Miquella considering Miquella is male. I suppose if it's some sort of magical consummation then Miquella apparently being a femboy is simply enough to make it possible, or perhaps Miquella is also a divine hermaphrodite if his relationship with St. Trina is the same as the relationship between Marika and Radagon.
I also wonder how births will work in Ranni's Age of Stars since her ending seems to reject the Erdtree and the Elden Ring. Perhaps people will go back to the old-fashioned way of reproducing.
I like how you get straight to the point with no filler
Interesting video as always, but there are some flaws in this theory. This post is a bit long, but I do hope you read this:
1. Miquella and Malenia were already born and around by time of NIght of Black Knives, hence Miquella mourning his brother's death and trying to revive his dead soul, so Marika didn't marry Radagon after losing him and the other demigods.
2. There's a PLETHORA of evidence in the game that heavily suggests Marika made Godfrey and his army into Tarnished as the first step of her plan to plot the Night of Black Knives and subsequently the Shattering to defy the Greater Will so her making Godfrey a Tarnished for that reason definitely isn't it. I do not know why people keep choosing the purposely vague and cryptic story trailer and article designed to build hype, over the game itself that has an enormous amount of evidence making it very clear Marika is a Machiavellian type character who has been plotting the undoing of her own Order for ages and does not care about any of her kids. She did not shatter the ring over losing Godwyn, she literally had him and her other kids killed and a ghost in the game calls one of the demigods killed the same night as Godwyn in the mausoleum her "unwanted child": her motives are not that difficult to comprehend.
3. Something really odd that I've noticed that I haven't seen anyone else point out yet is the whole duality of Miquella and Malenia's Empyrean status. We are told they were chosen Empyreans by the Greater Will like Ranni, however, we are also told that Malenia is the chosen Empyrean of the Outer God of Rot to bring an Order of Rot that she was born as: and ascends to her Goddess form on her own without a Lord. Therefore, an Empyrean is not merely a godly woman used to birth kids, it is a demigod who can become a true god one way or another and has actual powers and a purpose beyond merely conception.
I think Marika was indeed used by the Greater Will the way you describe, hence her "unwanted" children and clear lack of love of them: because she was forced to have them. But this does not ring true of all Empyreans, especially since Miqeulla is biologically male, some believing he may be a girl because he is prepubescent and feminine does not mean he is actually female, he is always described as a male so Empyreans can be male too and have a role outside of having kids.
I can’t even describe the excitement I feel when new episode come out. Thank you so much for this titanic work!
Oookay....
I felt too awkward to comment earlier, but have now found the courage to return:
I've always felt that Empyreans took a feminine role,obviously, but I never quite took that as a lack of agency. Sure, they can bear the Elden Ring and take a consort, but that consort and the shape of their Elden Ring is their choice. Miquella was considered "the most fearsome Empyrean",and was only caught unawares because of his half-brother's designs( or was he?). Marika banished her first consort and took another one,as you said, more suited to her plans, at least initially. In fact, this is likely why Ranni went so far: because Marika did't give her the luxury she hrself had with Godfrey and Radagon.
Choice.
She wasn't gonna quietly accept marrying the golden boy of the family just because he was the best candidate. She wanted to choose.
As for Radagon, I feel like he was likely related to Marika before their fusion, because his marriage to Rennala "joined the Houses of the Moon and the Erdtree". in other words, he was of the house of the Eerdtree,likely the Golden Lineage. In what capacity, I do not know, but if he were a son of Marika's they'd mention it. Likely a member of her extended, pre-existing family of Numen( "The assassins that carried out the deeds of the Night of the Black Knives were all women, and rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself." Scions of the Eternal City, indeed). His red hair remains curious.
Also, when you called Marika the Elden Beast's babymaker,were you being.....literal?
You just put that image in my head. Help me!
Still waiting for more on the Finger Schism! See ya!
This man is hands down the best lore content channel I've seen till date . The amount of detail he puts in his work makes you feel " did they really think THAT far while making this game ?!"
Very impressive work man 👏 .
Honestly, this feels like you're falling in the GameTheory pitfall of making conclusions that fit the desired narrative. Kinda like with that Melina's comment about Boc and births, is just if not more likely to be intended to mark Melina's birth as special, not Bocs. Here, when she talks about life enduring and births continuing, you fixate on births and even link it, or say that she links it, to the current Order, but that's not the context of the dialogue. The context is that she's trying to persuade the Tarnished to not destroy the world with the Frenzied flame, not not buy into the rhetoric of "world is suffering, end it all" by saying that life still goes on regardless of how cruel the world may seem.
Same with Marika being pierced. You just said that this is not where the womb is, but then go on as if it's "close enough" to make a desired point. But what the spear *is* going through is where the Elden Ring is in her form.
I'm making this comment because a lot of your other videos are the best example of very well done scientific approach to things present in the game, but here you seem to do the Internet thing of having a desired conclusion and speculating or approximating facts to make it fit the wanted outcome.
Gotta disagree with the notion that Radagon was ever a unique individual.
Marika's whole schtick is that she's trying to control the world.
She usurped the previous God-Queen.
She remade the Elden Ring to remove Destined Death so that her age and dynasty could be eternal.
Given that she seems to really hate Godfrey...
It would make sense that his beastly nature mirrors that of much of the western fandom who struggle so hard with the notion that Queen = God.
In short, Radagon is a creation of Marika to show her chauvinist of a husband that not only is she the one in charge because she is the Queen (God) and he a mere Lord...
But also that she can not only do what he does (allowing Marika to fight in the Giant's war that came after the Gloameyed Queen's death) but also do it better.
If Miquella can "be Trina" and not needed to absorb some random woman while he is only a seedling of a God... Then Marika, a God proper now, could do the same.
Did the lance take away Marika's life giving powers, or did it regulate and therefore forcibly use them (rape)? As Melina says, births continue. Perhaps the lance was a way to force Marika to keep playing the Greater Will's game to the best of her ability.
I don't think so, since the Greater Will left the Lands Between when Marika tried to destroy the Elden Ring, hence why the Two Fingers in the Round Table can't contact it. In Japanese, for one of the trailers, it's said that queen Marika went mad (literally), so I think that the lance was just there to keep her at bay.
Births continue, but not Erdtree births. Instead we see births from the Aonea flowers in Caelid, rebirths in the Haligtree, serpentmen births in Volcano Manor, and occasional births from normal gestation like Boc (and I would assume all demihumans).
Radagon pierced himself with one of his signature divine thorns
Given that Radagon fights you at the end to defend the current Order, and Marika is the one who summoned you from exile to destroy it, ordering Hewg to assist you by making a weapon to kill her, I think more agency is being ascribed to Marika than she really had.
@@Nemo12417 i think the key point here is that marika had to go behind the greater wills and radagons back to have any sort of agency because nothing else was afforded her. Ultimately the GW underestimated marika and that is how the current order can be unravelled, but that does not mean marika did not experience oppression at its hands.
i love how this channel appeared out of nowhere and just started droping bangers every single time
Life is brilliant, beautiful. It enchants us, to the point of obsession. Some are true to their purpose, though they are but shells, flesh and mind. One woman even lost her own body, but lingered on, as a puppet.
Hello, Great Sage Aldia, I miss you since DS2.
Oh man, you just keep getting better and better.
I always found Ranni… interesting, in terms of what she wants and does. The Greater Will chooses her as an Empyrian and she doesn’t want to be so she basically creates the circumstances that (player choice notwithstanding) allow her to ascend to godhood which is what The Greater Will wants. The fact she takes off and leaves the world to its own devices is almost irrelevant because she still implements the desires of The Greater Will.
Riding side-saddle seems suicidely dangerous but I've never even been on a horse so I'm no expert.
Mohg wasnt that lusty sorry mohg😭😭
I always assumed the shard was the essence of Radagon given that it’s more of a dull red and not really flaring with golden sparks like Malikeths blade but then I remembered the baleful shadow we face and how it doesn’t have the same hue. I think when I put your theory of it being a spear of destined death and it still being Radagon together it paints this picture of Radagon being very similar to the baleful shadows that try and stop Ranni. They take the form of Blaidd, a shadow and her closest friend, so close he’s called her step-brother, and they too wield destined death. Total shot in the dark, but I like the possible implications of Radagon actually having been created by the greater will for the very purpose of controlling Marika. Which would also represent the historical precedent across most of history of men trying to control the ability of women to have control over their reproductive system. He’s seemingly entirely in her favor, but only because she’s following the order of the greater will. Once she tried to shatter the order, Radagon would almost robotically repair it, it would seem. Once she was imprisoned in the lower arc of the Elden Ring, Radagon would insert himself into her navel, forcibly killing her, but also perhaps using his own essence to leave the possibly of further self fertilization of sorts open in the future. It makes Radagon and the greater will feel extremely patriarchal despite the many feminine influences in the order itself. Definitely has a lot of historical precedent in our world.
I think the “spear” of destined death we see in the abdomen of Marika is our doing. Remember the cutscene after defeating Maliketh portrays that we unleashed destined death. Even though Farum Azula is a temple in the sky, the first thing affected is the Erdtree. In my opinion the erdtree, Marika, the round table hold, and the lands between are all connected. So whatever happens Marika/ Radagon can see and feel and that is represented when we arrive and Radagon takes over to fight us.
It was the Elden Beast, it literally does the same thing to you as an attack during the fight.
@@cameronstone4495 It does but not with Destined Death. The Elden Beast attacks are all golden in colour. The only people who have wielded Destined Death are Ranni, the black knife assassins, Maliketh, and your player character.
@@2ndWanderingSage Well it's not like she's actually dead, it could just be bloodstained. I think the fact that the Elden Beast has such a specific attack is just more Fromsoft trademarked indirect storytelling.
@@cameronstone4495I didn’t say she was dead, but her crucified stance is in all the statues. So that is not a new pose that came about from the Elden Beast attack for her punishment. I think the red tint in the spear in her abdomen is FromSoft showing us what we do in the lands between reflects onto Queen Marika. This is why in Ranni’s ending it is the only ending where Queen Marika disappears since the power of the Gods is supposed to be “far removed”.
14:00 that just woke me up, good lore is stronger than any coffee
A slight issue I have with your point on Radagon, it's heavily implied that Radagon and Marika were already the same person in a physical sense while he was married to Renala. This is why her children are demigods as well, and were demigods before Radagon divorced her. My personal theory is that Radagon is the product of a curse the fire giants laid upon Marika in revenge for her war on them. Their red hair replaced her golden hair. Rather than accept that, however, she divested that aspect of herself into a new persona, Radagon. Radagon is quite literally a part cut off from Marika. Hence his obsession with his own incompleteness. Even while sharing the same literal body, he is a different will, a different person, than Marika.
While I agree that the wording of that section was a little uncharacteristically open to interpretation, Radagon having been a separate entity that agrees to become a Rebis with Marika and then goes and poses solely as Radagon to fight the war with Raya Lucaria, marry Rennala, and sire the 3Rs doesn't contradict anything this video theorizes.
I'd like to add something. Radahn's great rune description states:
"Radahn was amongst the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika."
@@aurallyinclined1092 In the case, what, Radagon would join with Marika but then also go off to marry and have children with Rennala before being called back to marry with Marika, IE the original thing he was meant to do?
@@unalloyedju The issue there is that Ranni is considered an Empyrean. So if we're to believe that there's a physical component to being a demigod or an Empyrean, the title simply being conferred upon them in a legalistic way doesn't really make sense.
@@RevanX77 Radagon had children with Rennala and then afterwards went to fuse with Marika.
The fact that Radagon had an Empyrean child with Rennala was proof that he was special, thus he was selected to be second Elden Lord.
Don’t forget Rennala who was royalty in the same sense as Marika, she was Queen of the Full Moon. The Moon is an exceptionally powerful cosmic entity in it’s own right in the Lands Between. You could argue it’s even more powerful and eternal than the Erdtree, as the Moon has existed long before it, and will definitely exist after any kind of tree. So it could confer powers that could rival or even usurp Marika, especially when combined with a grand champion like Radagon, whom we can only guess his true origins if he was not always Marika’s alter ego.
Wow some of these realizations blew my mind. The Godwin/Ranni connection, Marikas quote to Hoarah, and especially the cliffhanger hinting at the Gloam-Eyed Queen (my favourite lore topic) possibly piercing Marikas womb..
The consequent defects of Malenia and Miquella due to self-fertilization imply that Radagon was NEVER a separate entity from Marika. In real life biology, the problems with self-fertilization arise from the excessive or absent expression of genes because of the way they are recombined in the offspring . That would not happen with distinctive beings, absorbed or not by the other parent. So, if you want to use parallels to real life biology, you have to conclude that Radagon was never a different being: Marika and Radagon were always the same being --- with a dual nature, for sure, but always one entity.
Well, something like identical twins would still show very similar issues to self-fertilisation. But that still means you need a common "genetic" origin for the parallels to work even if as an adult Radagon was a completely independent individual.
@@Photoloss yes, you are correct. But as the hidden message in Leyndell in front of Radagon/Marika's statue just says that "Radagon is Marika", and because he had the preceptors wear a mask with the mouth sewn shut when he was married to Rennala in an apparent measure to keep his secret, the explanation of Radagon and Marika being two sides of the same entity seemed simpler to me. Of course, I can be wrong.
Still, as you say, the problems that their offspring have would then come from them being closely related at the very least.
I knew I loved The Tarnished Archeologist the first time I heard "Agni Parthene" orthodox chant in the background. ❤
The Godwyn and Ranni engagement is my head-canon as well. He would be the one inheriting the Elden Lord status, and she would, as an Empyrean, become a goddess and the new vessel of the Elden Ring, a seemingly seamless generational transfer of power according to the will of the ... well, Greater Will. 😅😂
Would explain Rannis desperation and reluctance to be forced into such an arrangement, she ofc knowing that MArika, in spite of all her power, is basically at the mercy of the Greater Will (at the games End, her catatonic body is still shattered, and only the Elden Ring still glows within, she is dehumanized as a person to the extreme).
It would also elevate Godwyns role in the assassination plot from just some random collateral damage, to actual precise assassination target of Ranni and who ever else was part of her cabal.
Note, their marriage would even make sense, as publicly they were not related by blood, but were stepsiblings, as no one knew about the ins and outs of the whole MArika/RAdagon mess.
Regarding the "double entendre," can we get Lokey or a Japanese translator to see if this is the case in the Japanese language as well?
I additionally took the sovereign alliance rots from within and traces of bloody conspiracy to be wordplay that there was an alliance between blood and rot. The lord of blood would probably be an asset when you are trying make a giant magical tree that you have to water with your blood, after all. Commander Niall appears to be in the service of Mohg. The sigil on his cloak is an ability Mohg uses, but others in Sol support Miquella. His clone is in Caelid where Malenia and Radahn fought. That would certainly seem to mean that the alliance was cemented before Malenia even marched south.
Hmm... Dunno if the Greater Will actually had Marika like that just to be a "baby making machine", to put it lightly. I mean, if that were to be the case, why would Radagon and the Elden Beast close off the Erdtree with the thorns and basically don't open the thorns with you finally getting there? if Radagon and the Elden Beast were still servants of the Greater Will, then they would open the doors for you to finally bring back together the Elden Ring, but, it ain't the case. The Greater Will sends you, and Radagon and the Elden Beast reject you. You have to burn the tree in order to enter. And also there's the fact that Marika and Radagon seem in opposite sides when she calls him "loyal dog of the golden order" or something alike.
To me, this all looks like some sort of rebellion happened, and Radagon and the Elden Beast split from the Greater Will at some point, crucifying Marika to have her as a "Baby Making Machine". If this was all the Greater Will's plan, why would it send you to become Elden Lord? in theory everything would still be in control of the Greater Will if that was the case.
Based on how Melina recites Marika outlining the entire Tarnished plan, along with the Two Fingers taking ages to actually contact the Greater Will, the Tarnished were sent by Marika, not the Greater Will. The Two Fingers was only assuming that the Tarnished sent the Greater Will, and upon realizing that wasn't the case, the Two Fingers finally bothers contacting the Greater Will to ask it what's going on.
This is probably why Radagon and the Elden Beast fight the Tarnished. Radagon isn't on orders to let anyone replace him as Elden Lord, and he might fear either losing that power or being deemed obsolete and erased. The Elden Beast is either waiting for the Two Fingers to contact the Greater Will or, if it can contact the Greater Will itself, has yet to receive an answer. Alternatively, the Elden Beast is refusing to contact the Greater Will and hopes that something will work out because it's trying to hide its failures out of shame.