I knew when I made this series that there would be those that would say it was an unfair comparison and in a way they are right, but the reason that this series had to be made is that many people believe that many keyboards do sound as good as a piano. I hear sales people from coast to coast telling customers that the keyboards they are selling sound as good or better than a concert grand and that is just not true.
Digital pianos have pretty much reached parity with sounding indistinguishable to a recorded piano. Hearing them in person obviously no match for the real thing, especially in a setting with good acoustics.
Also, I don’t know about the new CP88, but the CP4 that precedes it allows you to customize the piano sound quite a bit. The damper resonance is an insertion effect and when you dial the dry
Few digital pianos have full digital samples in them. They take up huge amounts of ROM and the best digitally sampled pianos are usually in the higher end digital pianos or are samples used with DAW's on a computer. I have a Bosendorfer digitally sampled piano on my computer which I access by connecting it to my Yamaha Genos. The digitally sampled Bosendorfer is vastly superior to the CFX sample in my Genos or to any other digital keyboard I have owned. I am richly inspired by this digitally sampled Bosendorfer over anything I have ever tried on any digital keyboard/piano. It makes a huge difference into what kind of speaker system you run your digitally sampled piano. I use only Bose systems. I wish you had described how you are connecting your CP88, and what microphone/s you are using to pick up your Steinway in this recording. Regardless, this was an extremely excellent comparison which I enjoyed immensely.
Of course, it is not the same, but for most people (like myself) a real grand piano is just impossible to own so a CP88 or alike is one of the better options to have and enjoy. Thanks for your work!
Why spend 160.000€ or more on a grand piano if spending around 2.000€ on a stage piano can give you the exact sound of grand piano or even better. Over the years, which was mentioned in the video, some grand pianos start deteriorating. That is not gonna happen with your Yamaha CP, unless you spill some soda over it 😀.
@@EricLaermans I'm playing both. I would never give away my acoustic piano. I only use my digital when I don't want to disturb everyone with the noise. The feeling with all the vibrations and Volume in the sound is not comparable to digital pianos.
*Moves into a studio apartment* Gosh, I need a grand piano because there's NO WAY I'm getting an electric that'll be as good. *Proceeds to live under said new piano*
Here's a fun experiment. Throw a Roland RD-1000 and Korg SG-1D from 1986 into the comparison just to see how far we have come with electronic piano sounds.
I remember Elton John played RD-1000 at the stadium concert. Every note he played sounded like smashing glass. You know he is a extraordinarily pianist, it was so harsh and annoying digital machine.
I totally agree. Nothing beats the thunderous sounds of a concert grand! The electronic stuff does shave its place at home or in a smaller venue. It’s not easy to replicate the touch of a real piano with an electronic instrument. Great face off of two different yet similar instruments. Thanks!
First, I'm amazed at the breadth of your understanding, your talent, and your ability to express yourself. That is a dynamite combination, for sure. Very nicely done. I like that you seem very insightful and intelligent, yet without a single speck of ego. That is rare, James, and you should be proud of yourself. What I found most interesting in this video is that the Steinway D absolutely killed the Yamaha in the Satie/Debussy, classical stuff, but the pop chord progressions actually sounded better, to my ear, on the Yamaha. This could be because there is less sympathetic resonance. Classical things are written to take advantage of that, while pop stuff is not, in fact the dissonance from that detracts from the overall sound, probably because in that milieu, there are many instruments competing in the same sonic space. When you speak of 'soaring', (if we ignore the sympathetic resonation) I think what you are hearing is a large difference in timbre. The overtones on the D, for instance, are quite prominent. Not that it is 'trebly-er', as much as there are high overtones more prominent on the D (which is why I like the Steinways in general). But there is no question, at least in this comparison, that the D has a much more open, sweeter, beautiful sound, and the Yamaha has a somewhat muted, covered-up, claustrophobic feel by comparison. It is my experience, however, that there are digital pianos that are much, much, better than this one, at least in my opinion. This comparison is a little bit skewed because the Steinway is louder (on the recording) than the Yamaha, which favors the Steinway. Anyone who sold stereos in the 90's knows that A/B comparisons always favor the louder speaker rather than the more-accurate speaker, and they sold a lot of 'louder' speakers due to that phenomenon-we interpret louder as better, subconsciously.
I used to own a Yamaha U1 upright acoustic back in the eighties. I now have a Kawai MP11SE which is a fabulous instrument and it sounds great, but it still can't beat the real thing. Fond memories of that U1...
The best thing about digital is ... the tuning doesn’t go poopy Most real pianos are not maintained. So digital in tune ... beats lack of real piano If I were playing classical concerts I would feel differently
I can’t play, but my ears work and I love the sound of a real acoustic piano. I understand the convenience of an electric keyboard, but it just can’t duplicate the gorgeous acoustic sounds! I learn so much from you!
And actually, the acoustic suffered a little bit with the transportation, as he said early in the video. But the treble notes sustain are amazing, anyway, compared to the electronic copies, that are so bright, so clean that has no resonance. They are improving it. To simulate perfectly an acoustic piano you must have: the ideal speakers, (as someone said before), the correct default gain (volume), unprocessed sample, or only the eq correction to match the acoustic with the sound produced by the speaker in the default volume, as I said before, (actually vice-versa) to match the electronic with the natural sound)..
In the final analysis the "organic" piano, if I may say, is more soul-satisfying than the electronic keyboard. Like comparing the taste of sugar to saccharin. While saccharin may indeed taste sweet -- it's not quite there -- its taste is not quite 100% true to the original. I hope the analogy works for you.
@@gcampagn Yeh, it's like the difference between an amplifier emulator and a real tube amp for guitarists. I'd never, ever use an emulator if I had the option to pick up a few nice tube amps and could crank them up. But, unfortunately, I'd get kicked out out my apartment within minutes if I did. So you do what you have to do.
I enjoy these videos so much! I’m one of those guys who loves to get into the most microscopic details of instruments. The comparisons are like science experiments in tone. We all knew from the gate how the real piano would crush the CP88 but I just had to hear the differences in resonance, tone, blending, etc. I watched this twice and even headed down to my local Sam Ash to try a CP 88. Keep the videos coming. Sending kudos from Texas.
I would never claim the a premium digital piano is better than a concert grand, but they are definitely better than the vast majority of uprights. People who call digital pianos « keyboards » because they are different from concert grands shouldn’t turn around and call uprights, which function in a very different way, in very material ways, from a grand, a « piano ». If an upright is a piano, then a digital piano is a piano; the converse is also true.
Uprights are definitely pianos, they are just vertical vs. horizontal. There's still the wooden case, the (usually) spruce soundboard, the dampers, the hammers, the strings, the action parts (in a different arrangement but still operating in a similar fashion). A digital piano uses modeled sounds or sampled sounds (recorded sounds) and simulates the various resonances that acoustic pianos have. But both grand and uprights are acoustic pianos.
Great video in showcasing live vs processed. A part of the sound difference is that the Steinway has a natural reverb with the air and the enclosure vs the straight tone of the CP88. However if you add a little reverb and chorus to the CP88, you can get closer sounding results. Still, nothing beats the real deal.
Digital Piano recorded one key at the time with different velocity. The sound result is too clean because it didn't capture the full resonance at the time of recording.
Some Yamaha digital pianos simulate sympathetic resonance, but they intentionally left that feature out of the CP88 to try to force musicians to buy both a CP88 and another model.
A true grand can never be replicated on an electric keyboard. So far I can instantly tell on any song I hear. Can anyone else? Just compare with music you hear in the 70s.
Some of the sounds on a keyboard are determined by the sound system you are using for reproducing the sounds. The system can make a huge difference in what you hear. I still like your demo. waiting for your next one.
Grand piano sound is amazing, it’s just difficult to record at most household. The digital piano is perfect for recording and portability. So the purposes are different between the two. Loves your UA-cam videos, and mostly agree with all your comments. Keep it up and thanks for doing this. I hope you have Yamaha P515 with grand piano comparison. My be you did, I just haven’t found it yet.
I have a korg Japanese digital piano, bought it four months ago, when the volume is soft, it's amazing, but when it's volume increases, something terribly goes wrong. Notes are harsh and blunt. I now practice on it at soft volume and it's enjoyable to play it
it has to do with the speaker diameter. your keyboard most likely has 2 or four 6 inch speakers. a piano has between a 4 foot and a 8 foot speaker. think about how mych distortion you get when you play earbuds loud vs a full sterio system. to come even close to a real piano in sound you will need a 4 or 6 foot speaker. the one other difference is the lack of overtones in a digital piano.
I guess your right. Yesterday I played on my recently bought friends accoustic piano KAWAI and it's really great. I guess I'll invest in a moderately priced accoustic piano now
The piano is always going to win over any keyboard as a keyboard is a compromise but it would be nice if Yamaha was to upgrade the CFX sound sample they put in all their keyboard range to be just a little more closer to the real thing
I’ve noticed this with a Clavanova and a Kurzweil: when they are playing as pianos, the farther you are from them, the less they sound like acoustic pianos and more like tinty electronic instruments.
Great review James. I was listening on an iPad, but I could hear a much richer, full bodied sound from the Steinway, it also maybe because of the sympathetic resonance , sounded more colorful on the Steinway. I currently own a Yamaha Clavinova CVP 701, it has the CFX grand piano sample and a Bosendorfer grand sample, they are super articulated samples, I would be interested to hear it up against the CP 88:and an Acoustic grand. Thank you for another interesting video 😄
unpopular opinion- I actually prefer the Yamaha. I prefer the sharper cleaner sound of the yamaha but in no way am i saying that it is better than the grand, just that i prefer the brighter and lighter sound of the yamaha.
@ThePianoforever The best way to show sympathetic resonance is to: While standing up... hold the damper pedal, strike a key, then quickly mute the string(s) with your finger. You will then hear the sympathetic resonance on it's own. You will want to have your fingers an inch away from the string(s) that are being played before you strike the key so you can mute it as fast as possible.
Great video. It will never be possible to fully duplicate with super high fidelity an acoustic piano with a digital system. The best way to compare would be to use spectrum analysis and look at power spectral densities of each instrument using FFT analysis. Here you would be able to see the frequency content and respective power in each frequency bin. I think it has more to do with the fact that the wood , strings, and the frame have a very complex spectra when they vibrate. A speaker will not resonate like a piece of wood or metal. The mechanical resonance of a piano sounds much nicer that a digitally reproduced response. This is why wood selection and other materials make each acoustic piano a little difference.
The Yamaha CP sounds more flat than the Steinway which on the other side sounds much more rich. However, Yamaha is a great digital alternative for gigs, great keyboard action with pretty good sound. I believe Nord has a more authentic character in their sounds though, but it depends what's important to you. I think you settled this debate for good! Great review :-)
Subjective but yes, a great many Pianists (professional) don't like Nord. That however, is not the companies market. They make performance boards for Keyboardists and you'll find them commonly there. For now you have a superior action (with a lot of added weight) in the Mp11se. Or you have the very much lighter CP88 with a few missing features but also a great performer - in a much much easier to move package. P515 falls into the tier list but again, isn't quite as mobile. So if you are studio based entirely Kawai, if you are gigging CP. Nord....lol. Just don't bother.
My first impression of the CP88 was, what a good tone; this sounds really nice. However, the Yamaha is, I would agree, superior; and demanding pianists will appreciate it.
I suspect that adding damper resonance and a bit of reverb to the digital keyboard would allow you to get closer to the acoustic. Also not mentioned here is the speaker/amplifier your are using. When comparing the keyboard to an acoustic instrument, the speaker has a huge impact, especially when you talk about how you "feel" the low end.
@@ThePianoforever I remember a high-end loudspeaker maker, Cabasse, claimed that people couldn't tell a real Cello (behind a screen) apart from a cello recording played through their speakers (behind the same screen). So maybe if you spent, say, the price of a good upright on your amps and speakers (perhaps 5000-7000 $), you might get a sound a bit closer to a concert grand? Not obvious because a piano is acoustically very complex, and anyway I don't have that kind of money to throw around, but what do you think?
@@gerardvila4685 a good speaker system will only amply the inferior sound of the CP88 as it is not a full spectrum sample to begin with of a CFX or any other grand piano.
Absolutely fantastic sound in the Grand. I have no space for one in my flat but man... hopefully one day I will both have the skills and a room in size worthy enough for one. This video made me apply for piano courses
I agree with you that there is a major difference between the two of them. on the other end I never saw someone bringing in a keyboard in the music hall an played a classical piece on it. That is simply said not wisely. It doesn’t sounds but it is a great instrument for playing lots of other stuf and handy if you want to play some music ten high in your small room. Easier to bring up a keyboard there then a grand piano. 🙂 But I got your point.
James, it would be interesting to compare the CP88 with Native Instruments NOIRE. It is a sample of Nils Frahm’s concert grand, which is a YAMAHA CFX 9'. NOIRE has a regular sample as well as a sample of his piano with felt placed on the hammers.
Give me a digital piano over an acoustic any day. I prefer to set my master tuning to 432 Hz---try doing that with the acoustic grand. A digital piano is always in tune, can play an incredible range of samples, and has adjustable master tuning. The acoustic grand piano is an extremely delicate instrument which is incredibly sensitive to humidity, very difficult to move, has significant room acoustic requirements for optimal sound, and can very easily damaged. You can vastly improve the sound of the electronic keyboard by using high quality powered monitor speakers run through a high quality USB or firewire interface. Sure, a $179,000.00 9 ft Yamaha CFX grand piano will sound better than a $2,500.00 Yamaha CP88 playing through its built-in speakers but I am willing to bet that the CP88 would give the grand a good run for the money when combined with a set of high-end, powered reference monitors, a RME Fireface UFX II, and a digital audio workstation loaded with Synthogy and Spectrasonics plugins. This setup would provide world-class sound for a small fraction of the cost and none of the headache(s) of owning a full-size grand piano.
I agree. Sound of an acoustic piano is almost always way better than a digital one. But if you don't need to tune your piano, doesn't weight 500 kilos, costs max a few thousand euros/dollars and could plug in headphones to play it at night + all the possible extra stuff that it has built in, I take a digital one for those benefits. I would buy an acoustic one only if I could tune it myself and never need to move it away from it's place + if I don't have crying neighbours ;)
Thank you. I do enjoy your videos. Could you do a video that shows the manufacturing process for collecting the acoustic piano samples and incorporating them in the keyboard electronics? I would find that very interesting.
Hey this was a great comparison but I think you should redo this with the Yamaha CFX and the N3X. I think that would be the closest comparison between a "digital" and an acoustic piano.
Listening with headphones (Sony) tells you right away that the keyboard is NOT ANYTHING compared to the real piano. I don't buy keyboards because of the piano sounds, anyways. Just bought a Yamaha Montage and bought it for its strings and pipe organ sounds. Nothing better (in its price range that is, because the Yamaha Genesis is awesome, but won't spend $5,000 for a keyboard, for sure). Thank you for taking the time for your demonstrations. So much appreciated!
I play pop/rock, and I prefer to record with my digital piano, because it sounds like me. If I record on a grand, (and I have), it sounds like someone let me record on their grand piano...and when I'm done, I'm politely shown the exit. It doesn't feel authentic to me. I know, it's odd.
Of course your Steinway sounded more full than the Yamaha (for the price you paid I would think it damn well better😊)! The CP88 sounded excellent though, as you said, it is very affordable. For people who live in small houses, apartments, condominiums, townhouses or mobile homes the CP88 will fit in their small living space and they will still have an instrument that sounds great. Another great comparison video, JPS. 👍🎶🎹
BOTH the digital piano and a real grand piano will always have their places.....no matter how close technology comes to one day 100% matching the sound of a real piano on a digital one. It will always be personal preference. Do I want a beautiful instrument that will enhance the interior of my home and give me an exquisite playing experience, or do I need something portable for live performance or in a home studio....which is a breeze to record from vs. a real piano. Luckily I do not have to make a choice, as I am blessed to have both. :)
Great comparison and nice explanation , I'm not a professional keyboard player, but this comparison is really easy to understand for all those ones that has good ears ( and i still have 2 working ears). I love your REAL PIANO, made of hood, metal and strings..... unfortunately I dont have any, and anyway my skill level don't deserve a so beautifull piano.
People always go on about how advanced computer technology is today, but they were saying the same thing back in the 60s. The truth is, computer technology, especially computer audio technology is still in its infancy. The technology to reproduce a perfect sound simply dosent exist yet.
Thank you for all of the comparisons on the many models in your playlists. Coming from a church background perspective, many times it comes down to the cost of things. I can agree that there's still a difference between an electronic keyboard (delay, ambiance) and a string piano, so a purchase may have a lot to do with the cost of purchasing and ownership. I have a studio piano and a keyboard, but I usually defer to the studio when I play. For portability, nothing like the keyboard. We're having the same discussion about virtual pipe organ samples and a real pipe organ, but for practicing needs and some churches needs, a virtual pipe organ program connected to a console, that isn't going to require tuning, may make a difference. It's all about the situation: personally, I'd love to have a Steinway.
The real grand sounds richer, but on stage it will sound terrible, since it's very difficult to mike up. The difficult recordings are already done on the CP. So on stage the CP will sound much better than a real grand. I remember a concert of Guns 'n Roses where they used a real grand piano for November Rain. It sounded like a mono banjo. For amplificated performances a digital piano is way better. Experts like Billy Joel will agree.
I'm sorry, but it's not true. It is true that if you have enough instruments the sound gets sort of muddy and is harder to notice the quality of a real piano.
In my experience, the shittiest little upright sitting in the back choir room of an elementary school will always sound better than any sampled piano sound. That being said, I can get a pretty solid piano sound out of my 6 inch phone. It's all situational.
I think the overtones and undertones are under the threshold to record them. The Yamaha is pretty, accurate not so much. You are right, the sustain with full rich resonance is just missing! The additive effect sound is off too. The problem I also have with digital organs.
Chocolatey might be one adverb...hehehe. Thanks, for the comparison, and your playing! You're answering questions I didn't know I had. Now, I just wonder how long it would take for me, at nearly sixty, to learn enough, and whether I would with my ADD.... But, I do enjoy your videos! Thanks, again!
This is really great, thank you. Indeed all of you videos have been extremely helpful and interesting. I love your attention to detail. Keep up the good work and I'll keep watching.
Such a great comparison 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾and one thing I always say, digital pianos just doesn’t have any wood in their sound thats why I think they are so overpriced
Very interesting comparison! I've only tried the CP88 a couple of times and did not find it to feel/sound quite as much like a CFX Grand as my Yamaha Montage8 synthesizer, neither in tone, velocity depth, nor sympathetic resonance. When I say feel, I don't mean the actions on the keybed, but rather the velocity depth/programming. The Montage8's keybed action would not likely be as close to any grand as the CP88 would be, so I am not talking about the keyboard/keybed feel, but rather the sound depth & dynamics. I found that the EQ'ing/programming of the CP88's CFX is not where I'd want it to be, as it sounds like someone added a high shelf at around 6kHz or lower and brought down the highs on the CP88 by approximately -5dB. One thing that I had to do while listening to your back to back comparisons was turn the volume up while you played the CP88 and down when you played the Steinway. So adjusting the recorded volume of the CP88 to match the Steinway would be something I'd recommend, if not for this video, then for future videos. I am willing to make quite a hefty wager, that if you were to adjust the volumes to be the same for both your acoustic Steinway Grand & the Yamaha Montage8 CFX so that they line up, and more specifically if you were to load into the Montage8 the free 'Wojtek Olszak Pack' library containing the 'WO Studio Piano' (it uses the same internal preset CFX samples that comes with the Montage, but with better programming) and disabled all the Reverb/Variation effects, leaving only the programmed resonance, then you would find that the Montage8 'WO Studio Piano' CFX has better resonance, EQ'ing, velocity depth, etc. than the CP88, AND it would be much more comparible to your acoustic Steinway piano in both tone & resonance. So much so, that I think it would then prompt you to do a comparison between the Montage8 'WO Studio Piano' CFX piano and an actual acoustic CFX Grand! And if you were to accept my challenge, I would highly recommend that you use 'Adam Audio A7X' speakers to play the Montage8 through to make the sound comparison more fair, as those speakers make the Montage8 sound closer & more realistic to an actual acoutic grand than any speakers I've ever played through before!! If you watch/listen to this video and hear Wojtek Olszak explain about & play his programmed version of the CFX Grand on the Montage8, I think you will hear that his 'WO Studio Piano' CFX sounds right up there with the actual acoustic Steinway in your video above: ua-cam.com/video/U7OD0IsqoRg/v-deo.html At these points in yours & Olszak's videos, you can specifically compare the soft high 'G' note played on both, and I actually think that Wojtek Olszak's piano has the edge; however listen for yourself & see what you think..!? ua-cam.com/video/U7OD0IsqoRg/v-deo.html (Wojtek Olszak's Montage8 'WO Studio Piano') ua-cam.com/video/9QKJT_GK_Bg/v-deo.html (Your acoustic Steinway) If you are willing to accept this challenge, I will lay ALL of my pride on the line! ;)
One way to test sympathetic resonance is to press down a key, not hard enough for the note to sound, hold it, then play the note an octave higher. When you let go of the higher note and keep down the lower note, you should hear the higher note in the lower string. That will work on your Steinway. Does it work on your Yamaha?
The sampling in the keyboard is good, but its the whole physical action of the sound leaving the strings, soundboard and wood into the air that gives that big emotion. Most digitals cannot capture the emotion.P.S James.. i believe you !
I think we have to consider an electric keyboard as a digital music source (e.g., music CD). However accurate or sensitive to key touch that may be, it is fed thru a common electronic amplifier and speakers. These overwhelm the final sound experience as any stereo buff can tell you. The argument then collapses to a 'stereo equipment' evaluation versus a live music experience--something that doesn't pass the smell test. Sorry, your Steinway doesn't sound all that great on my laptop tiny speakers. . .Nothing beats listening to the nuances of a fine piano in person.
It comes down to the acoustics of the source. The acoustics of a vibrating paper cone , and a tiny one at that, cannot equal the acoustics of stretched strings inside an acoustically optimized enclosure. But the fact it comes so close is pretty darn amazing.
The CP88 is a stage piano, meaning it has no internal speakers, but some lower end instruments have speakers that are less than ideal. I use the Roland KC-350 amplifiers here at the studio and have found them to be great for keyboards.
Hi Pawel, which keyboard is better? The NWX on the P515 or the NW-GH on the CP88? World you say, That the P-515 is a professional Piano? Which piano is better in your opinion?
Interesting that you found that one key was too bright and punchy. I have a P125 using CXF Grand voicing and that same note has the same problem, so I guess it is a problem in the sampling. I just assumed it was my poor playing.
The biggest benefits of electronic keyboards are the different sounds, but such keyboard wouldn't be able to beat each of instruments it can play sound of, seen with the Grand Piano of cause.
James, I agree with your assessment. I do wonder how a Kawai keyboard would sound vs. the Steinway. I think Yamaha just doesn't have enough sampling richness in their keyboards to give a closer representation of their CFX. The Garritan virtual CFX comes a lot closer. At any rate, for a Yamaha to Yamaha comparison, here is your test piece on the excellent s3x vs. on the CP88. S3x ua-cam.com/video/tnBIodTi0dQ/v-deo.html CP88 4:50 You can certainly hear the difference in crispness, resonance, and quality of midrange and bass. Also, the brightness quality is quite different on the s3x. More crisp and pleasant vs. thinnish on the CP88. Also, the tones bloom on the S3X, they really don't do the same on the CP88. And the s3x is only 6'1".
I own a Kurzweil Forte. It has a great amount of samples just for Piano. A Sympathetic resonance effect and Damper noise effect. Even the key return mechanic noise. That with 8 velocity layers. Packet with 88 hammer Action Keybed. All that along with a KB3 emulation, Virtual Analog Synth, FM Synth and Kurzweil very respected V.A.S.T synthesis able to virtually mimic any known one and any different one as well. On 17 Kg and for less than 3K Euro. If I would like the real thing, I will have spent: 88.000 euro for the Steinway D that Forte tries to mimic, About 70.000 euro for a Yamaha C that it also mimics, Over 6K for a Mark I of Fender, Who knows what for the other bunch of vintage electric pianos. Add a Hammond B3 with a Leslie speaker = 5000 euro, a Vintage refurbish Yamaha DX7 for the FM stuff 500 euro or more, an analog Moog or any other of that type at about 3000 euro as well as a bunch of digital synthesisers in between 500 and 1500 euro. Add a sequencer to all that and a control surface with connectivity to PC, iPad, Sound system.... you name it. I would have needed a fortune (that I do not and I will never have ) and a trailer to move with all that each time. I put my Forte in my car and take it to everywhere. At the end, acoustic instruments sound is picked up with microphones, digitally processed and coloured with digital effects and sent to a digital mixer that will send it to a digital Draw that will send the whole thing to a digital file that will finish on a digital CD that you will listen to, using a digital system or with a smart phone mp3 or similar frequencies and harmonics castrated end file. Probably with ears that are not so perfect that the ideal case of human earring between 20Hz trough 20KHz. Who cares then about the real thing Lol? Selling a Steinway Grand Model D to a person requires the same marketing effort, then selling other less expensive things, but the fortune to buy it and the effort to produce it does not justify many of the usages we will find in the real world. Some people buy it like a luxury thing. It is like buying a Porche to drive at 50 KM/h in the city. But... If you are a Piano player, who acoustically plays jazz or classic on a concert hall, doing piano solos too and you have the money to buy such a monster, then do it. You will never regret. For most of us who listen to this kind of demos on UA-cam, the real thing will be like throwing 80K to a great bin. Even not I dream to have it. I would rather dream of having that amount of money to my disposal and use it better. The SB M D Grand Piano will get dusty on the living room of many users, while they are giging with a portable one. Their recordings will lose a lot of the original beauty and if they need to move, they will suffer and pay a lot until it is again set up and correctly adjusted and tuned at the new location. Maintenance will always be expensive and a pain with weather changes. However I must say that I appreciate the effort to make this video. Also note, please, that the prices that I mentioned are just a guess. It may even be higher in some cases.
Nicely done! No surprises though. The two instruments are incomparable. No, not because of the Yamaha-Steinway thing, but there is no way a big wooden soundboard mounted on a very big and heavy iron frame can be replaced by a sample at all, apart from all the other reasons you mentioned. A keyboard has the advantage that you can play all sounds that can come from a sampler or synthesiser. For most classical music however it is or would be an abomination.
I knew when I made this series that there would be those that would say it was an unfair comparison and in a way they are right, but the reason that this series had to be made is that many people believe that many keyboards do sound as good as a piano. I hear sales people from coast to coast telling customers that the keyboards they are selling sound as good or better than a concert grand and that is just not true.
Digital pianos have pretty much reached parity with sounding indistinguishable to a recorded piano. Hearing them in person obviously no match for the real thing, especially in a setting with good acoustics.
Also, I don’t know about the new CP88, but the CP4 that precedes it allows you to customize the piano sound quite a bit. The damper resonance is an insertion effect and when you dial the dry
Few digital pianos have full digital samples in them. They take up huge amounts of ROM and the best digitally sampled pianos are usually in the higher end digital pianos or are samples used with DAW's on a computer. I have a Bosendorfer digitally sampled piano on my computer which I access by connecting it to my Yamaha Genos. The digitally sampled Bosendorfer is vastly superior to the CFX sample in my Genos or to any other digital keyboard I have owned.
I am richly inspired by this digitally sampled Bosendorfer over anything I have ever tried on any digital keyboard/piano. It makes a huge difference into what kind of speaker system you run your digitally sampled piano. I use only Bose systems. I wish you had described how you are connecting your CP88, and what microphone/s you are using to pick up your Steinway in this recording. Regardless, this was an extremely excellent comparison which I enjoyed immensely.
What is the title of the Erik Satie composition that you start playing at 11:54 in the video?
Never believe a salesman.
Of course, it is not the same, but for most people (like myself) a real grand piano is just impossible to own so a CP88 or alike is one of the better options to have and enjoy. Thanks for your work!
Why spend 160.000€ or more on a grand piano if spending around 2.000€ on a stage piano can give you the exact sound of grand piano or even better. Over the years, which was mentioned in the video, some grand pianos start deteriorating. That is not gonna happen with your Yamaha CP, unless you spill some soda over it 😀.
@@EricLaermans I'm playing both. I would never give away my acoustic piano. I only use my digital when I don't want to disturb everyone with the noise. The feeling with all the vibrations and Volume in the sound is not comparable to digital pianos.
*Moves into a studio apartment* Gosh, I need a grand piano because there's NO WAY I'm getting an electric that'll be as good.
*Proceeds to live under said new piano*
Here's a fun experiment. Throw a Roland RD-1000 and Korg SG-1D from 1986 into the comparison just to see how far we have come with electronic piano sounds.
I'll take the RD-1000 brand new. Where can I buy?
I remember Elton John played RD-1000 at the stadium concert. Every note he played sounded like smashing glass. You know he is a extraordinarily pianist, it was so harsh and annoying digital machine.
M1 Piano? 😂
The keyboard does sound OK, nice even The piano sounds amazing so rich and full, perhaps even grand.
1 note on the "real" piano was enough. Not even close.
I know. They both sound great, but the keyboard just isn't the same.
Keyboards are fun for having different sounds, but I think that if you're wanting to have the piano sound you just oughta go with an actual piano.
It is, what a good copy is: A copy.
Keyboard just like a 'toy'
Totally agree. But that said there are better electronic piano VST's than this Yamaha CP88
I totally agree. Nothing beats the thunderous sounds of a concert grand! The electronic stuff does shave its place at home or in a smaller venue. It’s not easy to replicate the touch of a real piano with an electronic instrument. Great face off of two different yet similar instruments. Thanks!
First, I'm amazed at the breadth of your understanding, your talent, and your ability to express yourself. That is a dynamite combination, for sure. Very nicely done. I like that you seem very insightful and intelligent, yet without a single speck of ego. That is rare, James, and you should be proud of yourself.
What I found most interesting in this video is that the Steinway D absolutely killed the Yamaha in the Satie/Debussy, classical stuff, but the pop chord progressions actually sounded better, to my ear, on the Yamaha. This could be because there is less sympathetic resonance. Classical things are written to take advantage of that, while pop stuff is not, in fact the dissonance from that detracts from the overall sound, probably because in that milieu, there are many instruments competing in the same sonic space.
When you speak of 'soaring', (if we ignore the sympathetic resonation) I think what you are hearing is a large difference in timbre. The overtones on the D, for instance, are quite prominent. Not that it is 'trebly-er', as much as there are high overtones more prominent on the D (which is why I like the Steinways in general). But there is no question, at least in this comparison, that the D has a much more open, sweeter, beautiful sound, and the Yamaha has a somewhat muted, covered-up, claustrophobic feel by comparison.
It is my experience, however, that there are digital pianos that are much, much, better than this one, at least in my opinion.
This comparison is a little bit skewed because the Steinway is louder (on the recording) than the Yamaha, which favors the Steinway. Anyone who sold stereos in the 90's knows that A/B comparisons always favor the louder speaker rather than the more-accurate speaker, and they sold a lot of 'louder' speakers due to that phenomenon-we interpret louder as better, subconsciously.
Which stage piano would you recommend then as an alternative to the CP88?
I used to own a Yamaha U1 upright acoustic back in the eighties. I now have a Kawai MP11SE which is a fabulous instrument and it sounds great, but it still can't beat the real thing. Fond memories of that U1...
The best thing about digital is ... the tuning doesn’t go poopy Most real pianos are not maintained. So digital in tune ... beats lack of real piano
If I were playing classical concerts I would feel differently
I love these comparisons between digital and acoustic
14:01 "it's not even close" face 😬
I can’t play, but my ears work and I love the sound of a real acoustic piano. I understand the convenience of an electric keyboard, but it just can’t duplicate the gorgeous acoustic sounds! I learn so much from you!
And actually, the acoustic suffered a little bit with the transportation, as he said early in the video. But the treble notes sustain are amazing, anyway, compared to the electronic copies, that are so bright, so clean that has no resonance. They are improving it. To simulate perfectly an acoustic piano you must have: the ideal speakers, (as someone said before), the correct default gain (volume), unprocessed sample, or only the eq correction to match the acoustic with the sound produced by the speaker in the default volume, as I said before, (actually vice-versa) to match the electronic with the natural sound)..
In the final analysis the "organic" piano, if I may say, is more soul-satisfying than the electronic keyboard.
Like comparing the taste of sugar to saccharin. While saccharin may indeed taste sweet -- it's not quite there -- its taste is not quite 100% true to the original.
I hope the analogy works for you.
@@gcampagn Yeh, it's like the difference between an amplifier emulator and a real tube amp for guitarists. I'd never, ever use an emulator if I had the option to pick up a few nice tube amps and could crank them up. But, unfortunately, I'd get kicked out out my apartment within minutes if I did. So you do what you have to do.
Why spend over 100grand on saccharine.
The grand piano sounds like heaven
"its actually pretty easy to tune your own piano" I am not sure If I agree - but would love to know how :)
I enjoy these videos so much! I’m one of those guys who loves to get into the most microscopic details of instruments. The comparisons are like science experiments in tone. We all knew from the gate how the real piano would crush the CP88 but I just had to hear the differences in resonance, tone, blending, etc. I watched this twice and even headed down to my local Sam Ash to try a CP 88. Keep the videos coming. Sending kudos from Texas.
Welcome to the channel.
I didn't know that you got your own recording studio.. I hope it all works out for you. You are a good man and gifted.
The advantage of the keyboard...doesn't need expensive tuning like a reg ular piano.
Well played and said. Excellent piano demonstation A++
I would never claim the a premium digital piano is better than a concert grand, but they are definitely better than the vast majority of uprights. People who call digital pianos « keyboards » because they are different from concert grands shouldn’t turn around and call uprights, which function in a very different way, in very material ways, from a grand, a « piano ». If an upright is a piano, then a digital piano is a piano; the converse is also true.
Uprights are definitely pianos, they are just vertical vs. horizontal. There's still the wooden case, the (usually) spruce soundboard, the dampers, the hammers, the strings, the action parts (in a different arrangement but still operating in a similar fashion). A digital piano uses modeled sounds or sampled sounds (recorded sounds) and simulates the various resonances that acoustic pianos have. But both grand and uprights are acoustic pianos.
It's all about making educated choices.
I guess that I would not even had known if I hadn't listened to your video. What a great comparison.
Thanks for the lesson.
Great video in showcasing live vs processed. A part of the sound difference is that the Steinway has a natural reverb with the air and the enclosure vs the straight tone of the CP88. However if you add a little reverb and chorus to the CP88, you can get closer sounding results. Still, nothing beats the real deal.
By the way. I think you have the absolute best unit comparisons on UA-cam. You do not mince words. Great job, IMHO.
Digital Piano recorded one key at the time with different velocity. The sound result is too clean because it didn't capture the full resonance at the time of recording.
Some Yamaha digital pianos simulate sympathetic resonance, but they intentionally left that feature out of the CP88 to try to force musicians to buy both a CP88 and another model.
A true grand can never be replicated on an electric keyboard. So far I can instantly tell on any song I hear. Can anyone else? Just compare with music you hear in the 70s.
Some of the sounds on a keyboard are determined by the sound system you are using for reproducing the sounds. The system can make a huge difference in what you hear. I still like your demo. waiting for your next one.
Such a huge emotional difference for me. The piece on the CP didn't touch me, but on the D -wow.
Great video. Still miss my kurzweil that had excellent CP70 and CP80 samples.
Grand piano sound is amazing, it’s just difficult to record at most household. The digital piano is perfect for recording and portability. So the purposes are different between the two. Loves your UA-cam videos, and mostly agree with all your comments. Keep it up and thanks for doing this. I hope you have Yamaha P515 with grand piano comparison. My be you did, I just haven’t found it yet.
yes, and I love Sati... the clean simplicity always amazes me! Your channel grows on me! Thank you! 🤭
I have a korg Japanese digital piano, bought it four months ago, when the volume is soft, it's amazing, but when it's volume increases, something terribly goes wrong. Notes are harsh and blunt. I now practice on it at soft volume and it's enjoyable to play it
it has to do with the speaker diameter. your keyboard most likely has 2 or four 6 inch speakers. a piano has between a 4 foot and a 8 foot speaker. think about how mych distortion you get when you play earbuds loud vs a full sterio system. to come even close to a real piano in sound you will need a 4 or 6 foot speaker. the one other difference is the lack of overtones in a digital piano.
I guess your right. Yesterday I played on my recently bought friends accoustic piano KAWAI and it's really great. I guess I'll invest in a moderately priced accoustic piano now
Absolutely,nothing plays like the real acoustic piano!!
Thank you again for the great videos..
You are such a fantastic player…
✌️👍Mario
The piano is always going to win over any keyboard as a keyboard is a compromise but it would be nice if Yamaha was to upgrade the CFX sound sample they put in all their keyboard range to be just a little more closer to the real thing
Check out Native Instruments NOIRE. It is a sample of Nils Frahm’s concert grand CFX.
I’ve noticed this with a Clavanova and a Kurzweil: when they are playing as pianos, the farther you are from them, the less they sound like acoustic pianos and more like tinty electronic instruments.
Great review James. I was listening on an iPad, but I could hear a much richer, full bodied sound from the Steinway, it also maybe because of the sympathetic resonance , sounded more colorful on the Steinway.
I currently own a Yamaha Clavinova CVP 701, it has the CFX grand piano sample and a Bosendorfer grand sample, they are super articulated samples, I would be interested to hear it up against the CP 88:and an Acoustic grand.
Thank you for another interesting video 😄
unpopular opinion- I actually prefer the Yamaha. I prefer the sharper cleaner sound of the yamaha but in no way am i saying that it is better than the grand, just that i prefer the brighter and lighter sound of the yamaha.
One is a CPU/speaker sound and the other one is a live/air sound!
@ThePianoforever The best way to show sympathetic resonance is to: While standing up... hold the damper pedal, strike a key, then quickly mute the string(s) with your finger. You will then hear the sympathetic resonance on it's own. You will want to have your fingers an inch away from the string(s) that are being played before you strike the key so you can mute it as fast as possible.
Great video. It will never be possible to fully duplicate with super high fidelity an acoustic piano with a digital system. The best way to compare would be to use spectrum analysis and look at power spectral densities of each instrument using FFT analysis. Here you would be able to see the frequency content and respective power in each frequency bin. I think it has more to do with the fact that the wood , strings, and the frame have a very complex spectra when they vibrate. A speaker will not resonate like a piece of wood or metal. The mechanical resonance of a piano sounds much nicer that a digitally reproduced response. This is why wood selection and other materials make each acoustic piano a little difference.
You are right. Yamaha CP is designed to be played with drums, guitars, vocals and lots of noises.
The Yamaha CP sounds more flat than the Steinway which on the other side sounds much more rich. However, Yamaha is a great digital alternative for gigs, great keyboard action with pretty good sound. I believe Nord has a more authentic character in their sounds though, but it depends what's important to you. I think you settled this debate for good! Great review :-)
Kjell Magne Lauritzen Nord comes with some loose knobs and sliders not functioning. If that is top of the market, my name is Santa 😊.
I don't like Nord Piano and Stage actions... CP88 feels very good
Subjective but yes, a great many Pianists (professional) don't like Nord. That however, is not the companies market. They make performance boards for Keyboardists and you'll find them commonly there. For now you have a superior action (with a lot of added weight) in the Mp11se. Or you have the very much lighter CP88 with a few missing features but also a great performer - in a much much easier to move package. P515 falls into the tier list but again, isn't quite as mobile. So if you are studio based entirely Kawai, if you are gigging CP. Nord....lol. Just don't bother.
What a beautiful instrument! Cool video. You look like the actor younger Stephen Goeffrey Miller!
My first impression of the CP88 was, what a good tone; this sounds really nice. However, the Yamaha is, I would agree, superior; and demanding pianists will appreciate it.
I suspect that adding damper resonance and a bit of reverb to the digital keyboard would allow you to get closer to the acoustic. Also not mentioned here is the speaker/amplifier your are using. When comparing the keyboard to an acoustic instrument, the speaker has a huge impact, especially when you talk about how you "feel" the low end.
Both were recorded in mono using the very same equipment I use for all my recordings.
@@ThePianoforever I remember a high-end loudspeaker maker, Cabasse, claimed that people couldn't tell a real Cello (behind a screen) apart from a cello recording played through their speakers (behind the same screen). So maybe if you spent, say, the price of a good upright on your amps and speakers (perhaps 5000-7000 $), you might get a sound a bit closer to a concert grand? Not obvious because a piano is acoustically very complex, and anyway I don't have that kind of money to throw around, but what do you think?
@@gerardvila4685 a good speaker system will only amply the inferior sound of the CP88 as it is not a full spectrum sample to begin with of a CFX or any other grand piano.
👍👍yeah lots of differences initially I wouldn't really perceive, now I do! Thanks!
Absolutely fantastic sound in the Grand. I have no space for one in my flat but man... hopefully one day I will both have the skills and a room in size worthy enough for one.
This video made me apply for piano courses
I agree with you that there is a major difference between the two of them. on the other end I never saw someone bringing in a keyboard in the music hall an played a classical piece on it. That is simply said not wisely. It doesn’t sounds but it is a great instrument for playing lots of other stuf and handy if you want to play some music ten high in your small room. Easier to bring up a keyboard there then a grand piano. 🙂 But I got your point.
James, it would be interesting to compare the CP88 with Native Instruments NOIRE. It is a sample of Nils Frahm’s concert grand, which is a YAMAHA CFX 9'. NOIRE has a regular sample as well as a sample of his piano with felt placed on the hammers.
Give me a digital piano over an acoustic any day. I prefer to set my master tuning to 432 Hz---try doing that with the acoustic grand. A digital piano is always in tune, can play an incredible range of samples, and has adjustable master tuning. The acoustic grand piano is an extremely delicate instrument which is incredibly sensitive to humidity, very difficult to move, has significant room acoustic requirements for optimal sound, and can very easily damaged. You can vastly improve the sound of the electronic keyboard by using high quality powered monitor speakers run through a high quality USB or firewire interface. Sure, a $179,000.00 9 ft Yamaha CFX grand piano will sound better than a $2,500.00 Yamaha CP88 playing through its built-in speakers but I am willing to bet that the CP88 would give the grand a good run for the money when combined with a set of high-end, powered reference monitors, a RME Fireface UFX II, and a digital audio workstation loaded with Synthogy and Spectrasonics plugins. This setup would provide world-class sound for a small fraction of the cost and none of the headache(s) of owning a full-size grand piano.
I agree. Sound of an acoustic piano is almost always way better than a digital one. But if you don't need to tune your piano, doesn't weight 500 kilos, costs max a few thousand euros/dollars and could plug in headphones to play it at night + all the possible extra stuff that it has built in, I take a digital one for those benefits. I would buy an acoustic one only if I could tune it myself and never need to move it away from it's place + if I don't have crying neighbours ;)
Thank you. I do enjoy your videos. Could you do a video that shows the manufacturing process for collecting the acoustic piano samples and incorporating them in the keyboard electronics? I would find that very interesting.
One of the first people outside of PTG who actually knows something about pianos
Hey this was a great comparison but I think you should redo this with the Yamaha CFX and the N3X. I think that would be the closest comparison between a "digital" and an acoustic piano.
Listening with headphones (Sony) tells you right away that the keyboard is NOT ANYTHING compared to the real piano. I don't buy keyboards because of the piano sounds, anyways. Just bought a Yamaha Montage and bought it for its strings and pipe organ sounds. Nothing better (in its price range that is, because the Yamaha Genesis is awesome, but won't spend $5,000 for a keyboard, for sure). Thank you for taking the time for your demonstrations. So much appreciated!
Such a great speaker. Smooth and well prepared
agreed.
Your videos are excellent! Sound tests by an actual pianist is better than a salesman or mfg rep. Thanks for your work here.
Great vid. Would Love a CP88 vs CF3 comparison!!
VERY educational! Thank you!
I play pop/rock, and I prefer to record with my digital piano, because it sounds like me. If I record on a grand, (and I have), it sounds like someone let me record on their grand piano...and when I'm done, I'm politely shown the exit. It doesn't feel authentic to me. I know, it's odd.
Sounds like you aren’t very good lol
Of course your Steinway sounded more full than the Yamaha (for the price you paid I would think it damn well better😊)! The CP88 sounded excellent though, as you said, it is very affordable. For people who live in small houses, apartments, condominiums, townhouses or mobile homes the CP88 will fit in their small living space and they will still have an instrument that sounds great. Another great comparison video, JPS. 👍🎶🎹
BOTH the digital piano and a real grand piano will always have their places.....no matter how close technology comes to one day 100% matching the sound of a real piano on a digital one. It will always be personal preference. Do I want a beautiful instrument that will enhance the interior of my home and give me an exquisite playing experience, or do I need something portable for live performance or in a home studio....which is a breeze to record from vs. a real piano. Luckily I do not have to make a choice, as I am blessed to have both. :)
4:50, guys
An acoustic instruments will never be replace by à numeric piano
why not ?
Great comparison and nice explanation , I'm not a professional keyboard player, but this comparison is really easy to understand for all those ones that has good ears ( and i still have 2 working ears).
I love your REAL PIANO, made of hood, metal and strings..... unfortunately I dont have any, and anyway my skill level don't deserve a so beautifull piano.
People always go on about how advanced computer technology is today, but they were saying the same thing back in the 60s. The truth is, computer technology, especially computer audio technology is still in its infancy. The technology to reproduce a perfect sound simply dosent exist yet.
Thank you for all of the comparisons on the many models in your playlists. Coming from a church background perspective, many times it comes down to the cost of things. I can agree that there's still a difference between an electronic keyboard (delay, ambiance) and a string piano, so a purchase may have a lot to do with the cost of purchasing and ownership. I have a studio piano and a keyboard, but I usually defer to the studio when I play. For portability, nothing like the keyboard. We're having the same discussion about virtual pipe organ samples and a real pipe organ, but for practicing needs and some churches needs, a virtual pipe organ program connected to a console, that isn't going to require tuning, may make a difference. It's all about the situation: personally, I'd love to have a Steinway.
The real grand sounds richer, but on stage it will sound terrible, since it's very difficult to mike up. The difficult recordings are already done on the CP. So on stage the CP will sound much better than a real grand. I remember a concert of Guns 'n Roses where they used a real grand piano for November Rain. It sounded like a mono banjo. For amplificated performances a digital piano is way better. Experts like Billy Joel will agree.
I'm sorry, but it's not true. It is true that if you have enough instruments the sound gets sort of muddy and is harder to notice the quality of a real piano.
That's weird. The CFX sample on my new 515 sounds much, much better than that CP-88.
But you can not replace the physical feeling with elc. keyboard when you play the grand piano .
In my experience, the shittiest little upright sitting in the back choir room of an elementary school will always sound better than any sampled piano sound. That being said, I can get a pretty solid piano sound out of my 6 inch phone. It's all situational.
I think the overtones and undertones are under the threshold to record them. The Yamaha is pretty, accurate not so much. You are right, the sustain with full rich resonance is just missing! The additive effect sound is off too. The problem I also have with digital organs.
Chocolatey might be one adverb...hehehe. Thanks, for the comparison, and your playing! You're answering questions I didn't know I had. Now, I just wonder how long it would take for me, at nearly sixty, to learn enough, and whether I would with my ADD.... But, I do enjoy your videos! Thanks, again!
This is really great, thank you. Indeed all of you videos have been extremely helpful and interesting. I love your attention to detail. Keep up the good work and I'll keep watching.
Thank you.
Where it starts getting interesting is the new class of "physical modeling" digital instruments. as apposed to those that use reactive samples ..
Such a great comparison 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾and one thing I always say, digital pianos just doesn’t have any wood in their sound thats why I think they are so overpriced
Very interesting comparison! I've only tried the CP88 a couple of times and did not find it to feel/sound quite as much like a CFX Grand as my Yamaha Montage8 synthesizer, neither in tone, velocity depth, nor sympathetic resonance. When I say feel, I don't mean the actions on the keybed, but rather the velocity depth/programming. The Montage8's keybed action would not likely be as close to any grand as the CP88 would be, so I am not talking about the keyboard/keybed feel, but rather the sound depth & dynamics. I found that the EQ'ing/programming of the CP88's CFX is not where I'd want it to be, as it sounds like someone added a high shelf at around 6kHz or lower and brought down the highs on the CP88 by approximately -5dB.
One thing that I had to do while listening to your back to back comparisons was turn the volume up while you played the CP88 and down when you played the Steinway. So adjusting the recorded volume of the CP88 to match the Steinway would be something I'd recommend, if not for this video, then for future videos.
I am willing to make quite a hefty wager, that if you were to adjust the volumes to be the same for both your acoustic Steinway Grand & the Yamaha Montage8 CFX so that they line up, and more specifically if you were to load into the Montage8 the free 'Wojtek Olszak Pack' library containing the 'WO Studio Piano' (it uses the same internal preset CFX samples that comes with the Montage, but with better programming) and disabled all the Reverb/Variation effects, leaving only the programmed resonance, then you would find that the Montage8 'WO Studio Piano' CFX has better resonance, EQ'ing, velocity depth, etc. than the CP88, AND it would be much more comparible to your acoustic Steinway piano in both tone & resonance. So much so, that I think it would then prompt you to do a comparison between the Montage8 'WO Studio Piano' CFX piano and an actual acoustic CFX Grand! And if you were to accept my challenge, I would highly recommend that you use 'Adam Audio A7X' speakers to play the Montage8 through to make the sound comparison more fair, as those speakers make the Montage8 sound closer & more realistic to an actual acoutic grand than any speakers I've ever played through before!!
If you watch/listen to this video and hear Wojtek Olszak explain about & play his programmed version of the CFX Grand on the Montage8, I think you will hear that his 'WO Studio Piano' CFX sounds right up there with the actual acoustic Steinway in your video above:
ua-cam.com/video/U7OD0IsqoRg/v-deo.html
At these points in yours & Olszak's videos, you can specifically compare the soft high 'G' note played on both, and I actually think that Wojtek Olszak's piano has the edge; however listen for yourself & see what you think..!?
ua-cam.com/video/U7OD0IsqoRg/v-deo.html (Wojtek Olszak's Montage8 'WO Studio Piano')
ua-cam.com/video/9QKJT_GK_Bg/v-deo.html (Your acoustic Steinway)
If you are willing to accept this challenge, I will lay ALL of my pride on the line! ;)
One way to test sympathetic resonance is to press down a key, not hard enough for the note to sound, hold it, then play the note an octave higher. When you let go of the higher note and keep down the lower note, you should hear the higher note in the lower string. That will work on your Steinway. Does it work on your Yamaha?
The sampling in the keyboard is good, but its the whole physical action of the sound leaving the strings, soundboard and wood into the air that gives that big emotion. Most digitals cannot capture the emotion.P.S James.. i believe you !
James, is there a reason that you never test/use a Yamaha Clavinova? Some of those CVP's have brilliant sound.
I have a cvp 409. Sounds amazing.🎹🎹
Your smile at 14 minutes says it all..!!
How does the sound of Pianoteq compare to the sound of a real piano?
It's like comparing Real celluloid Film with Digital video.
Moving from the keyboard to piano is like moving from darkness into light. The difference is so stark.
So is the price.
Looking a bit Bowie 1977 with that jacket sir
What is the somber piece of music you played at 14:04? it's beautiful
I think we have to consider an electric keyboard as a digital music source (e.g., music CD). However accurate or sensitive to key touch that may be, it is fed thru a common electronic amplifier and speakers. These overwhelm the final sound experience as any stereo buff can tell you. The argument then collapses to a 'stereo equipment' evaluation versus a live music experience--something that doesn't pass the smell test. Sorry, your Steinway doesn't sound all that great on my laptop tiny speakers. . .Nothing beats listening to the nuances of a fine piano in person.
It comes down to the acoustics of the source. The acoustics of a vibrating paper cone , and a tiny one at that, cannot equal the acoustics of stretched strings inside an acoustically optimized enclosure. But the fact it comes so close is pretty darn amazing.
Do the internal speakers on a digital keyboard compromise the sampled sound? If so would external ones help?
The CP88 is a stage piano, meaning it has no internal speakers, but some lower end instruments have speakers that are less than ideal. I use the Roland KC-350 amplifiers here at the studio and have found them to be great for keyboards.
Hi Pawel,
which keyboard is better? The NWX on the P515 or the NW-GH on the CP88?
World you say, That the P-515 is a professional Piano?
Which piano is better in your opinion?
Bought a wonderful Kawai for a studio. Really great
Interesting that you found that one key was too bright and punchy. I have a P125 using CXF Grand voicing and that same note has the same problem, so I guess it is a problem in the sampling. I just assumed it was my poor playing.
Interesting fun to learn Thank you !
The biggest benefits of electronic keyboards are the different sounds, but such keyboard wouldn't be able to beat each of instruments it can play sound of, seen with the Grand Piano of cause.
The keyboard bass sounded fluffy compared to the real one.
i would like to find out wish one is better roland rd 2000 o yamaha cp88? to record and play live
James, I agree with your assessment. I do wonder how a Kawai keyboard would sound vs. the Steinway. I think Yamaha just doesn't have enough sampling richness in their keyboards to give a closer representation of their CFX. The Garritan virtual CFX comes a lot closer. At any rate, for a Yamaha to Yamaha comparison, here is your test piece on the excellent s3x vs. on the CP88. S3x ua-cam.com/video/tnBIodTi0dQ/v-deo.html CP88 4:50 You can certainly hear the difference in crispness, resonance, and quality of midrange and bass. Also, the brightness quality is quite different on the s3x. More crisp and pleasant vs. thinnish on the CP88. Also, the tones bloom on the S3X, they really don't do the same on the CP88. And the s3x is only 6'1".
I have a Kawai MP11 se comparison to concert grand in the works.
Do you have any more information available for the first test song on this video you composed?
I own a Kurzweil Forte. It has a great amount of samples just for Piano. A Sympathetic resonance effect and Damper noise effect. Even the key return mechanic noise. That with 8 velocity layers. Packet with 88 hammer Action Keybed. All that along with a KB3 emulation, Virtual Analog Synth, FM Synth and Kurzweil very respected V.A.S.T synthesis able to virtually mimic any known one and any different one as well. On 17 Kg and for less than 3K Euro. If I would like the real thing, I will have spent: 88.000 euro for the Steinway D that Forte tries to mimic, About 70.000 euro for a Yamaha C that it also mimics, Over 6K for a Mark I of Fender, Who knows what for the other bunch of vintage electric pianos. Add a Hammond B3 with a Leslie speaker = 5000 euro, a Vintage refurbish Yamaha DX7 for the FM stuff 500 euro or more, an analog Moog or any other of that type at about 3000 euro as well as a bunch of digital synthesisers in between 500 and 1500 euro. Add a sequencer to all that and a control surface with connectivity to PC, iPad, Sound system.... you name it. I would have needed a fortune (that I do not and I will never have ) and a trailer to move with all that each time. I put my Forte in my car and take it to everywhere. At the end, acoustic instruments sound is picked up with microphones, digitally processed and coloured with digital effects and sent to a digital mixer that will send it to a digital Draw that will send the whole thing to a digital file that will finish on a digital CD that you will listen to, using a digital system or with a smart phone mp3 or similar frequencies and harmonics castrated end file. Probably with ears that are not so perfect that the ideal case of human earring between 20Hz trough 20KHz. Who cares then about the real thing Lol? Selling a Steinway Grand Model D to a person requires the same marketing effort, then selling other less expensive things, but the fortune to buy it and the effort to produce it does not justify many of the usages we will find in the real world. Some people buy it like a luxury thing. It is like buying a Porche to drive at 50 KM/h in the city. But... If you are a Piano player, who acoustically plays jazz or classic on a concert hall, doing piano solos too and you have the money to buy such a monster, then do it. You will never regret. For most of us who listen to this kind of demos on UA-cam, the real thing will be like throwing 80K to a great bin. Even not I dream to have it. I would rather dream of having that amount of money to my disposal and use it better. The SB M D Grand Piano will get dusty on the living room of many users, while they are giging with a portable one. Their recordings will lose a lot of the original beauty and if they need to move, they will suffer and pay a lot until it is again set up and correctly adjusted and tuned at the new location. Maintenance will always be expensive and a pain with weather changes. However I must say that I appreciate the effort to make this video. Also note, please, that the prices that I mentioned are just a guess. It may even be higher in some cases.
Nicely done! No surprises though. The two instruments are incomparable. No, not because of the Yamaha-Steinway thing, but there is no way a big wooden soundboard mounted on a very big and heavy iron frame can be replaced by a sample at all, apart from all the other reasons you mentioned. A keyboard has the advantage that you can play all sounds that can come from a sampler or synthesiser. For most classical music however it is or would be an abomination.