Some people will say that audio quality isn't as important as the subject matter, but to me it's quite the opposite. I love the cleanliness of your audio and even though i'm not really into the practical uses of machining, I still really love to watch stuff get cut, smashed, heated, wrecked, and Milled as much as the next man. Subscribed.
Love the description "I swear I'm not an idiot" Of coarse you're not an idiot, we all learn from our errors and thats why you will become a great machinist. I really do admire your upfront honesty :) Cheers from Oz :)
I want to thank you for discussing your mistakes honestly. I have always felt I learned more by seeing mistakes made and then corrected, than from seeing some flawless performance! You did a wonderful job. THANKS FOR THE CANDID VIDEO!
If your depth of cut doesn't exceed the honed edge you will build up friction because the insert is rubbing and folding the material over instead of cutting it. Also, there are 3 places the heat can go: Into the insert, the workpiece, or the chip. You want it to go into the chip.
Also the sound is not even that bad. I have heared a lot worse in heavy milling. Have you ever seen the recomended speeds and feeds from some manufacturers? A seco 125mm facemill running in steel at the recommended feeds and cutting depth was enough to get the load meter on our 20kW spindle at work to 70%. If the inserts and the machine can handle it there is no problem with red hot chips. A hot workpiece or milling cutter is much more a sign of wrong speeds then glowing chips.
Hey, it took me more than just one time before realizing the head was dropping on mine. Was using a fly cutter and it whacked into the stock really well and stalled the spindle too. Thankfully I had already converted to belt drive. Don't feel too bad. :) Not as large but the "Little Hogger" set of cutters is really inexpensive and nice and comes in 3/4 shank. Cutting down the shank when you go to a different tooling should not be a problem but probably just as easy to sell or swap it.
If your chip is too thin, the heat will go into the Inserts (what you saw in the video) A good rule of thumb for small machines is .003 chip load per insert. Ideal chip color on low/medium carbon steels is straw color with a blue tail. When you get that, you'll know the sfm is correct
Always take a file to steel to test the hardness before you cut. If the file "skates off" or barely cuts, you should use a surface grinder. If one is not available, I would suggest you remove the insert from your lathe bit, and anneal the steel with a heat treating oven, or with a torch. Even if this were not hardened steel, you have picked the wrong mill for the job. It is way too big in diameter. Because of this, you are making hard, interrupted cuts, unless you use a really slow feed rate. An interrupted cut will chip or break the inserts. You better not ever try anything like this with a flycutter! Even assuming this were not hardened steel, I could also tell your spindle speed was ridiculously high, even before you touched down on the lathe bit. You will get a feel for this after a while, but in the meantime, multiply the cutting speed of the material in FPM x 4, then divide by the cutter diameter. That will give you an approximate RPM. The cutting speed in FPM for UNHARDENED steel ranges from about 50 to 125 depending on the alloy. If that is a two inch diameter cutter you would want to use (50 x 4)/2= 100 RPM. This is going to sound like "grumpy old man", but you could have seriously hurt yourself too. You break an insert, and it can fly off and hit you in the eye. Finally, I think you should know that in Germany, machinists spend weeks filing steel and other materials before they even get near a machine, to learn the properties of materials. I guess this is what you get when hobbyists have too much money burning holes in their pockets.
PanamaSticks that’s a lil harsh don’t ya think? The advice was a good thing to give but the part about”this is what you get when a beginner has $ burning holes in their pocket”(paraphrased) wow man! I like seeing people getting into the trade. He learned and will continue to learn as we all do from our mistakes. Lord knows the decades I’ve spent in front of mills, lathes, and other machine tools and of course I still make bonehead mistakes occasionally. Unless u were born with the knowledge to distastefully ream this guy, please lighten up man..just saying
Don't beat yourself up, we've all done it before, but it takes a lot of courage to post it online. Videos like this are often a better educational value, because they also teach you what NOT to do. Thanks for putting it out. I enjoyed it.
The main problem was your machining direction. You cut in the longer direction which means that your face mill cutters just aren't in the cut and you ram the inserts in the material. If you had cut in the Y then more inserts wold be in the cut which gains better surface finish and fewer vibrations and tool wear
Most common way carbide is broken in the home shop is through varying feed, intermittent cuts and temp shock with coolant. Either flood it or cut dry. The recommended speeds and feeds for insert tooling is absurdly high, that’s why pros like them so much. Time is money
A very good (if completely unintended) effort at hard milling in the home shop. Those inserts were probably not intended for hard milling, but at work we use exactly this kind of cut (High spindle speed, low feed rate, all the heat comes out in the chip) to machine 50HRC+ steels all day. It's not a bug, it's a feature!
If I were buying today, I would probably look at the Shars part number 404-1959. You could also get a face mill that does not have an integral shank and then buy an arbor (Shars part numbers 404-2245 and 202-5328 would probably work). The 45 degree face mills require less power to make a cut so I think they are a good idea for a small machine like mine.
Great video. this is exactly what I need to watch last night as I was doing the very same task after I was give a 16mm tool but needed to take it down to 12mm to fit my holder. It turned into a big job as I only have a little cutter and now I am defo going to buy a head like this. Thanks so much for the video :-)
I'm astounded you didn't break those inserts. The max speed in this scenario for coated carbide is 800 rpm. To do triple that and still have a functional cutter is impressive. I need to get some of those inserts, haha.
HAHA! You're right on all accounts of course, and please help your apprentice understand that I know nothing about machining, which I assumed would come across in my videos :) I've owned both of my machines for less than two years and am posting videos as I learn. I'll try to be more upfront about it so other newbs don't make the same mistake your apprentice has made. Thanks for posting!
Nice work, mistakes like you show here are how to find out how far you can push things. Now you know how much stock you can remove in a single pass in this material. Properly locked up, you could easily have done two roughing passes and just one or two finishing passes, as it seems like this little machine actually has a few ponies behind it. Don't be afraid to make heavy passes, your tools will last longer. Sure looks like you are having fun!
I usually anneal anything hardened, or grind it slow to retain the temper, and I use coolant. But no, I have not machined much hardened material, just a couple times..., I've done some ball screw ends, but they are much easier to anneal first or to grind. I'm no expert, just learning myself, maybe feeds or chip load is too high. Its easy to forget to tighten everything down, but once you learn its second nature! There is so much to know in this field.
Pro-tip - When you machine something smaller than the cutter have the part offset in the Y-axis so the teeth of the cutter sweep into the part instead of hitting the part side on. This should stop a lot of the vibration and hopefully improve the finish.
.Some things to consider: A .010 DOC pass can get you in trouble for two reasons. One, most molded economy inserts have a honed edge, or a combination of hone and t-land. They do this for strength because a ground, sharp edge can be rather fragile, and a honed edge is cheaper to produce than a ground edge.(That having been said, most quality inserts for aluminum will have a ground, sharp edge)
A tip is to always mill with one half of the tool. If you have the tool centered on the workpiece it can start horriffic vibrations. So have the tool clear the workpieace with just a hair. Hope you understand how I mean.
Great tip. Nowadays I always cut at about at 15-30% steppover or 70-85% steppover while avoiding the middle of the cutter. This video is getting old and that younger me didn't have a clue what he was doing!
I appreciate you're saying so. I actually really try and get my video and audio as clean as possible. There are some great videos online with amazing content, but the production is so lousy it is unpleasant to watch. Back to work!
and... if you had an ebay affiliate account you could link to ebays shars page for this face mill and make at least 100.00 bucks a month from all the people finding this video when doing research on shars face mills, like me before we actually buy it. I got an ebay aff account and I am going to buy this same face mill, so I'll go ahead and get a complete video review done and scoop up a few bucks myself. Thanks for posting this though, nice to see this face mill can handle a .100 deep interrupted cut like that with no problems or damage. And... don't worry about looking stupid, no machinist out there has not learned things like this just like you did, the hard way, and come out better for it, like you did. Live and learn!
russtuff google it. If you do get signed up hit me up and I'll give you a few tips on how to set it up in conjunction with your videos. I do lots of affiliate type stuff like this.
terms are a PITA but there are no big deal, they just don't want you suing them or trying to make them responsible etc if things don't go as planned. I am one of those guys who always reads the terms also, though, so I know what you mean, I never trust anyone, I always want to know what I'm agreeing to. It is all to protect them though.
This has happened to me a lot and it annoys me every time it happens - but I'm getting better at double checking the quill. I also have a small milling attachment on my lathe, it has a round column and will wander when the going gets tough. My nice straight cut with go off on its own direction half way through and I have to set it up again.
Only if you are going to use the Tormach collet in your R8 (I am using it for some things). Using the 3/4" straits are nice because you can swap them out so fast using Tormachs's "32086 - TTS-R8 adaptor collet". Take a look at my "06 G0704 Initial Tooling Considerations" video (/watch?v=jr_jyXptCAY) for more on this system.
For some reason people seem to like running indexable facemills at HSS speeds on conventional machines, while on cnc machines they suddenly don't see a problem with running them faster.
Hi Russ, Nice stuff there! The little CCMT tool holders are only about 28-32 Rc so although it looks as if you are hard milling it's just the carbon burning off in the chip (red sparks). Milling creates a lot of heat and there are only three places it can go: the insert, the chip, or the part itself. The goal is to create a thick enough chip to carry away most of the heat. Ideal chip color for low-medium carbon steels is straw color with a blue tail. That's the sweet spot. >>> ExKenna
Hi Russ I think that your tool RPM is way too high and the feed you are using is too fast. Those indexable tool insert holders are made of tough steel even the Chinese brands. I would have used a much lower cutter RPM and a slower feed and if possible coolant. When you make all that friction you just burn up the tools unnecessarily.
You should never pass your cutter down the centre of a part. You want to aim for a thick to thin chip. Also, tap the turning tool down, your parallel is moving around a lot :-)
I stay away from words like "never", but I agree it is best practice to avoid the centerline. I agree on tapping down the part, but who knows if I did (this video is 4 years old). I always tap my work down but sometimes the parallels still (annoyingly) move around on you. Thanks for watching!
less speed and more feed and doc may work better, think about it, if you use bigger doc you spread the wear over more of the cutting edge so you get more work out of the cutter. did you do any sfpm calcs? sounds quite fast to me. you can raise the spindle speed on the final cut with a low doc to get a nice finnish. anyway the tormach machines use r8 but the larger ones have an option for bt30 which is certainly better. it's not unique to tormach so in your comments you can refer to it as bt30.
trust me when i say even after 28yrs of conventional and CNC chip flipping i learn something new with every new piece, every new solid model and every new g-code prgrm i do,, i ruined a $1200 new 4cyl-head once about 15yrs ago because of the z-aixs drawing down on me during a decking cut (didnt lock the quill !!),, turned the spindle on backwards few years ago using my fowler-electronic edge finder on a mold-core and as the ball unscrewed itself the lil-parts flew every where in the building, at that time i really didnt think it mattered about spindle direction when it came to an edge finder but i found out like real quick it matters ! happens to us all !!
Haha, those are some great stories (I'm sure you didn't think so at the time :) I don't mind showing people my mistakes. Maybe it will help someone else from making them. Thanks for watching!
Dude, this is my recommendation, pick the BIGGEST possible project that is even remotely feasible with your mill. And go do it. It will make screw ups like this seem like foot note. You will love it. No jokes I am making a Steam powered car for two people with mine. And I decided that would be my first project before I bought it. As a result I started to do and learn things on a whole new scale. Couldn't have done it if I was just going to "make chips" as people say
Great video. Sharing mistakes as well as successes is really valuable. I have the same mill and am going through the same process of discovery. Question - do you think it is worth removing the parallels before machining? They seem to jump around a bit anyway so they don't seem to be adding any support during machining. I already dinged one by mistake but it is still usable.
Newbie here as well, thanks for sharing. The little bit that I know, even with that much vibration, the parallels shouldn't be moving. At least I think I know! : )) lol I'm assuming you used a deadblow hammer? This coming from the guy who has yet to purchase his first mill! lol Keep em coming please.
very nice finished! if you trying to get the tool in your g0602 cut perfect center line without concave then this is just west of time, I think you better take the saddle a parts and scrape the dovetail along with the gib that way you are ganna be sure you are straight 90 degree to the chuck... I like this face mill, I'm going to get mine along with 24x18 AA surface plate on this black Friday! Oz
+Ozy Ozy Very cool. I think they changed the part number on this face mill, or maybe it no longer has an integral arbor (which would be a bit nicer I think).
I haven't been pulling my parallels even if they rattle loose. I've tried tightening the vise while tapping the work into the parallels with a soft hammer but it hasn't made a difference yet.
I have been machining a HSS end mill with a Titan carbide end mill. I take slow cuts at low RPM and shallow depth of cut, but it machines HSS like it's nothing... It was a ruined end mill I got from a machine shop scrap... plan on turning it into a tool bit
+russtuff I don't know the exact grade of the end mill but I did test it with a file... it's definitely harder than the cheap Chinese end mills sold by Grizzly... but I don't know if you can machine cobalt M2 type steel though... doesn't hurt to try but make sure you take very light cuts and reduce the speed a LOT. I was using 3/8" Titan 4 flute end mill, 300rpm and .01" depth of cut.
Hi Russ, I would like to see the same test with our 45 degree cutter from www.latheinserts.com. Several things going on in your test video: Most milling inserts have a land or hone of about .010 inch. This is for strength. If the insert was ground to a dead sharp edge it would be relatively weak. Any kind of scale or interruption would destroy the edge in short order. Your depth of cut must exceed the width of the land or the material will pile up and adhere to the cutting edge. In this video the edge has build up and the friction causes the material to rub and heat up. The sparks you see are the carbon burning off at 1200 degrees. Our inserts have a special edge prep for bench top machines. The smaller land enables you to run between .030 and .093 depth of cut with super results. And they will run .010 finish pass without those sparks you see. Edge prep is everything!!
Hey Curtis, thanks for the post! I've been buying end mills from latheinserts.com but I haven't tried the inserts yet. I'll make sure to add some to my next order :)
At the end you mention that you wish you went with a different style, one that will work with tormach in the future. Any suggestions? I'm a major newbie but I understand terminology for the most part.
1. The tool post could not be made to go any lower. 2. It's the tool I had on hand. Please note this video is 4 years old, and the tool holder I'm machining is the very first one I bought for my lathe. In the years since, I've learned that professional machinists do the same thing with their tool holders when needed. In fact, I'm never surprised to see a machinist modify something they have to make it work. Making/modifying tools is part of the game. Have fun!
Adam15197 I have noticed this situation as well with some of the off-brand tool holders period they advertise that it's for a Lathe with a 6 to 10 inch swing if you're using it on a 10 inch lathe you have to make sure that the tool holder is off to the side in order to lower the tool holder down low enough hanging off the side of your compound rest. what I would have done is modify the tool holder not the tool
Trevor Smales damn right! I just finished milling (6) 1-1/4 shank tool holders down to 3/4. Got all 6 used valenite holders on eBay for 15$. That’s why
Thank you! I noticed that the shank you suggested was a straight shank. Is that preferred over an R8 style shank like 202-516? (I have an R8 taper on my quill)
Hi I like your video, I see your commments about maybe want to use a face mill like TTs system. But do you think the TTS can have the same rigit/strength than R8 arbor? or do same work on steel/aluminium whitout vibrate or slip tts toolholder? many thanks
The piece your machining is hardened steel, no? I have the same machine, using a fly cutter or end mill, and it doesn't even touch hardened steel. Thinking of buying a face mill like the one you have here. That seems to take a 10 thou doc fairly easily?
I am really not sure, but my gut says it's harder than regular mild steel. The face mill is a good one, but if you are planning to ever use the Tormach TTS stuff then I would suggest going with their face mill instead of integral R8 like mine is. I still use this one quite a bit though since I haven't bothered to buy another. Actually, I won't be buying another, I'll be buying the Tormach fly cutter when I get around to needing it.
Well it certainly seems to eat through that tool quite well. Thanks for the video! I plan on staying with the R8 setup, as I don't do a ton of milling. I think I'm missing something and since we have the same machine and I couldn't do what you did, I'm assuming it's my tooling that's bad. Thanks again!
Why are you using 2" face mill for that small of a part, your going to have tool heat fracture issues. You shouldn't really go less than 1/2 tool diameter for a carbide face mill.
No clue. When I made this video 7 years ago I was super new to machining. It might also have been the only tool I had at the time. The 1/2 diameter idea is probably a safe rule of thumb.
***** If I'm going pretty slow, I can run a deeper cut in steel but it needs to be a very rigid clamping. Your right about this mill, it is not rigid at all.
Sorry man but your videos are killing me lol There's nothing wrong with the tools you are using its the user, this video your rpm is to hi, the job isn't offset and you don't use a coolant or cutting spray. The reason i commented is because one of my new apprentices has actually been watching your videos applying it in my workshop and destroying tools. I mean this in the nicest way :) If your after any advice feel free to inbox me, would be glad to help out.
Another contributing factor: The utility inserts you are using have a huge hone on the edge. This creates a rubbing action on light DOC's and adds even more friction. Try running at least .030 or more DOC and at least .003 per tooth on the feed rate. That will thicken up the chip and your inserts will last way longer. Cheers! ExKenna from latheinserts (dot) com
Sparks are for grinders, not mills. This is painful to watch and even worse to listen to. God help the soul that gets your used equipment. I hope your learning, meanwhile I will pray for you.
+PanamaSticks Sandvik advices against using coolant on carbide tooling when possible, especially on roughing stainless which generates a lot of heat (and the heat shock could damage the insert). Also, he could offset the tool from workpiece center to make the chips thinner. Forty five deg inserts thin the chip to 1/sqrt(2) from what it would be with 90deg insert, and offsetting the workpiece from center would thin it more. Thinner chips at insert exit point is also easier on insert due to outgoing chip not yanking the insert edge and possibly fracturing it. Also entering the workpiece at an angle is easier on the inserts as the insert doesn't "slam" 90deg into the material possibly damaging it. I'd definetly hardmill something if i could and wouldn't have to buy a surface grinder. I'm not an expert, but getting an owen or surface grinder or torching a heat treatment from a tool is an overkill. Especially when that shank probably is not hardened.
+Tiivi Vaavi I've been machining at my present job for 15 1/2 years. I don't cut much stainless, but it is precisely because stainless generates a lot of heat, that I would use a flood coolant. Carbide or not, if you don't do something to reduce the temperature buildup, both the cutter and the work expand and the cut gets progressively deeper. I may be wrong, but I don't think flood coolant or a steady stream of coolant is going to cause much thermal shock. Having the wrong grade of coolant will result in a chipped insert.... Sandvik makes and sells inserts, right? Maybe they want people to buy more......
+PanamaSticks You are probably right. At low cutting speeds, dwpths of cuts and feeds thermal shock wouldnt probably be an issue. Besides i wouldnt want chips flying out of a manual mill like from a machine gun. Im glad the shank turned out ok ;D I just really didn't like your hobbyists having too much this and that comment.
+Tiivi Vaavi I hope you didn't think I was ridiculing or insulting you. I just hate to see expensive tooling destroyed, and I thought I should make some suggestions. Believe me, I have destroyed plenty of cutters and inserts myself. We are very cash poor at work, and because of that, I have probably become too cautious about feed rates and spindle speeds. And I no longer work in a big shop with other machinists. So I really can't say from experience whether Sandvik knows what they are talking about.
+PanamaSticks No, I didn't think that, nor did I try to do that to you. I thought your message was somewhat insulting and discouraging and arrogant to russtuff. I work in a poor shop aswell, and I'm a new machinist working on an old machining center. While I'm sure you could teach me a whole bunch of stuff, but theres still things I know but you don't. If you get arrogant, people just wait out the lecture and then move on. [edit] I must have been on a bad mood or tired when reading your original post for being... so over over... reactive ;D
I get that a lot on this video :) For the record, no damage to the tool or inserts, no heat built up.... which means I probably could have gone faster. I think we should save "to fast" for things like "caused damage to something" or "caused excessive wear" or "caused to much heat buildup". All that said, I think I got lucky and if I were doing it again, I'd go slower.
Some people will say that audio quality isn't as important as the subject matter, but to me it's quite the opposite. I love the cleanliness of your audio and even though i'm not really into the practical uses of machining, I still really love to watch stuff get cut, smashed, heated, wrecked, and Milled as much as the next man. Subscribed.
Love the description "I swear I'm not an idiot" Of coarse you're not an idiot, we all learn from our errors and thats why you will become a great machinist. I really do admire your upfront honesty :) Cheers from Oz :)
sneakystaffie Thanks for watching!
I want to thank you for discussing your mistakes honestly. I have always felt I learned more by seeing mistakes made and then corrected, than from seeing some flawless performance! You did a wonderful job. THANKS FOR THE CANDID VIDEO!
I appreciate your comment. Thanks for watching!
If your depth of cut doesn't exceed the honed edge you will build up friction because the insert is rubbing and folding the material over instead of cutting it. Also, there are 3 places the heat can go: Into the insert, the workpiece, or the chip. You want it to go into the chip.
Also the sound is not even that bad. I have heared a lot worse in heavy milling. Have you ever seen the recomended speeds and feeds from some manufacturers? A seco 125mm facemill running in steel at the recommended feeds and cutting depth was enough to get the load meter on our 20kW spindle at work to 70%. If the inserts and the machine can handle it there is no problem with red hot chips. A hot workpiece or milling cutter is much more a sign of wrong speeds then glowing chips.
Your pain is everyone else's gain bro. Things us beginners need to know.
Hey, it took me more than just one time before realizing the head was dropping on mine. Was using a fly cutter and it whacked into the stock really well and stalled the spindle too. Thankfully I had already converted to belt drive. Don't feel too bad. :)
Not as large but the "Little Hogger" set of cutters is really inexpensive and nice and comes in 3/4 shank.
Cutting down the shank when you go to a different tooling should not be a problem but probably just as easy to sell or swap it.
If your chip is too thin, the heat will go into the Inserts (what you saw in the video) A good rule of thumb for small machines is .003 chip load per insert. Ideal chip color on low/medium carbon steels is straw color with a blue tail. When you get that, you'll know the sfm is correct
Always take a file to steel to test the hardness before you cut. If the file "skates off" or barely cuts, you should use a surface grinder. If one is not available, I would suggest you remove the insert from your lathe bit, and anneal the steel with a heat treating oven, or with a torch.
Even if this were not hardened steel, you have picked the wrong mill for the job. It is way too big in diameter. Because of this, you are making hard, interrupted cuts, unless you use a really slow feed rate. An interrupted cut will chip or break the inserts. You better not ever try anything like this with a flycutter! Even assuming this were not hardened steel, I could also tell your spindle speed was ridiculously high, even before you touched down on the lathe bit. You will get a feel for this after a while, but in the meantime, multiply the cutting speed of the material in FPM x 4, then divide by the cutter diameter. That will give you an approximate RPM. The cutting speed in FPM for UNHARDENED steel ranges from about 50 to 125 depending on the alloy. If that is a two inch diameter cutter you would want to use (50 x 4)/2= 100 RPM.
This is going to sound like "grumpy old man", but you could have seriously hurt yourself too. You break an insert, and it can fly off and hit you in the eye. Finally, I think you should know that in Germany, machinists spend weeks filing steel and other materials before they even get near a machine, to learn the properties of materials. I guess this is what you get when hobbyists have too much money burning holes in their pockets.
PanamaSticks that’s a lil harsh don’t ya think? The advice was a good thing to give but the part about”this is what you get when a beginner has $ burning holes in their pocket”(paraphrased) wow man! I like seeing people getting into the trade. He learned and will continue to learn as we all do from our mistakes. Lord knows the decades I’ve spent in front of mills, lathes, and other machine tools and of course I still make bonehead mistakes occasionally. Unless u were born with the knowledge to distastefully ream this guy, please lighten up man..just saying
Don't beat yourself up, we've all done it before, but it takes a lot of courage to post it online. Videos like this are often a better educational value, because they also teach you what NOT to do. Thanks for putting it out. I enjoyed it.
The main problem was your machining direction. You cut in the longer direction which means that your face mill cutters just aren't in the cut and you ram the inserts in the material. If you had cut in the Y then more inserts wold be in the cut which gains better surface finish and fewer vibrations and tool wear
Most common way carbide is broken in the home shop is through varying feed, intermittent cuts and temp shock with coolant. Either flood it or cut dry. The recommended speeds and feeds for insert tooling is absurdly high, that’s why pros like them so much. Time is money
A very good (if completely unintended) effort at hard milling in the home shop. Those inserts were probably not intended for hard milling, but at work we use exactly this kind of cut (High spindle speed, low feed rate, all the heat comes out in the chip) to machine 50HRC+ steels all day. It's not a bug, it's a feature!
Thanks!
That's the fastest flint striker I've ever seen! Where's the oxy/acet torch part of the video?
If I were buying today, I would probably look at the Shars part number 404-1959. You could also get a face mill that does not have an integral shank and then buy an arbor (Shars part numbers 404-2245 and 202-5328 would probably work). The 45 degree face mills require less power to make a cut so I think they are a good idea for a small machine like mine.
Great video. this is exactly what I need to watch last night as I was doing the very same task after I was give a 16mm tool but needed to take it down to 12mm to fit my holder. It turned into a big job as I only have a little cutter and now I am defo going to buy a head like this. Thanks so much for the video :-)
Thanks for watching!
I'm astounded you didn't break those inserts. The max speed in this scenario for coated carbide is 800 rpm. To do triple that and still have a functional cutter is impressive. I need to get some of those inserts, haha.
Yeah I was pretty shocked too :)
HAHA! You're right on all accounts of course, and please help your apprentice understand that I know nothing about machining, which I assumed would come across in my videos :)
I've owned both of my machines for less than two years and am posting videos as I learn. I'll try to be more upfront about it so other newbs don't make the same mistake your apprentice has made.
Thanks for posting!
Nice work, mistakes like you show here are how to find out how far you can push things. Now you know how much stock you can remove in a single pass in this material. Properly locked up, you could easily have done two roughing passes and just one or two finishing passes, as it seems like this little machine actually has a few ponies behind it. Don't be afraid to make heavy passes, your tools will last longer. Sure looks like you are having fun!
I usually anneal anything hardened, or grind it slow to retain the temper, and I use coolant. But no, I have not machined much hardened material, just a couple times..., I've done some ball screw ends, but they are much easier to anneal first or to grind. I'm no expert, just learning myself, maybe feeds or chip load is too high. Its easy to forget to tighten everything down, but once you learn its second nature! There is so much to know in this field.
Pro-tip - When you machine something smaller than the cutter have the part offset in the Y-axis so the teeth of the cutter sweep into the part instead of hitting the part side on. This should stop a lot of the vibration and hopefully improve the finish.
.Some things to consider: A .010 DOC pass can get you in trouble for two reasons. One, most molded economy inserts have a honed edge, or a combination of hone and t-land. They do this for strength because a ground, sharp edge can be rather fragile, and a honed edge is cheaper to produce than a ground edge.(That having been said, most quality inserts for aluminum will have a ground, sharp edge)
We all learn the most from our mistakes. Thanks for this series of vids, I'm shopping aaround for a small mill myself.
Thank you for your comments! I love getting constructive, concise, specific feedback :)
A tip is to always mill with one half of the tool.
If you have the tool centered on the workpiece it can start horriffic vibrations.
So have the tool clear the workpieace with just a hair.
Hope you understand how I mean.
Great tip. Nowadays I always cut at about at 15-30% steppover or 70-85% steppover while avoiding the middle of the cutter. This video is getting old and that younger me didn't have a clue what he was doing!
Great suggestions! Thank you for your comments.
Thanks for posting. I think anyone can make that mistake even if they have been operating a manual mill for a while.
I appreciate you're saying so. I actually really try and get my video and audio as clean as possible. There are some great videos online with amazing content, but the production is so lousy it is unpleasant to watch. Back to work!
The 704 mill will not keep xyz axises unless you lock them, I learned this the hard way but I did not damage anything. Thank you for sharing.
You're not wrong :)
Thanks for watching!
Iv'e done worse, it's incredible how much those carbide inserts will take. The finish actually looks nice! Anyway thumbs up!
and... if you had an ebay affiliate account you could link to ebays shars page for this face mill and make at least 100.00 bucks a month from all the people finding this video when doing research on shars face mills, like me before we actually buy it. I got an ebay aff account and I am going to buy this same face mill, so I'll go ahead and get a complete video review done and scoop up a few bucks myself. Thanks for posting this though, nice to see this face mill can handle a .100 deep interrupted cut like that with no problems or damage. And... don't worry about looking stupid, no machinist out there has not learned things like this just like you did, the hard way, and come out better for it, like you did. Live and learn!
I have never heard of this program... I guess I'll have to look into it.
russtuff
google it. If you do get signed up hit me up and I'll give you a few tips on how to set it up in conjunction with your videos. I do lots of affiliate type stuff like this.
Robert Barnes
Yeah I took a look. Seems like a TON of terms to review. I'll have to do it when I get a little time to read through some of it.
Thanks!
terms are a PITA but there are no big deal, they just don't want you suing them or trying to make them responsible etc if things don't go as planned. I am one of those guys who always reads the terms also, though, so I know what you mean, I never trust anyone, I always want to know what I'm agreeing to. It is all to protect them though.
You make a great point. I have some big projects that I'm flushing out.... now I just need to get some time in my shop :)
Thanks for watching! The spindle, motor, face mill, and inserts didn't seem to mind. But I get your meaning :)
This has happened to me a lot and it annoys me every time it happens - but I'm getting better at double checking the quill. I also have a small milling attachment on my lathe, it has a round column and will wander when the going gets tough. My nice straight cut with go off on its own direction half way through and I have to set it up again.
Only if you are going to use the Tormach collet in your R8 (I am using it for some things). Using the 3/4" straits are nice because you can swap them out so fast using Tormachs's "32086 - TTS-R8 adaptor collet".
Take a look at my "06 G0704 Initial Tooling Considerations" video (/watch?v=jr_jyXptCAY) for more on this system.
For some reason people seem to like running indexable facemills at HSS speeds on conventional machines, while on cnc machines they suddenly don't see a problem with running them faster.
Excellent comments! Thank you for posting :)
Hi Russ, Nice stuff there!
The little CCMT tool holders are only about 28-32 Rc so although it looks as if you are hard milling it's just the carbon burning off in the chip (red sparks). Milling creates a lot of heat and there are only three places it can go: the insert, the chip, or the part itself. The goal is to create a thick enough chip to carry away most of the heat. Ideal chip color for low-medium carbon steels is straw color with a blue tail. That's the sweet spot. >>> ExKenna
PS. Its good to be humble and you are. We all make mistakes. Dont get hurt.
It happened to me once, but not the z axis dropped. The actual carbide end mill was getting lower and lower from the collet chuck.
Hi Russ
I think that your tool RPM is way too high and the feed you are using is too fast.
Those indexable tool insert holders are made of tough steel even the Chinese brands. I would have used a much lower cutter RPM and a slower feed and if possible coolant. When you make all that friction you just burn up the tools unnecessarily.
You should never pass your cutter down the centre of a part. You want to aim for a thick to thin chip. Also, tap the turning tool down, your parallel is moving around a lot :-)
I stay away from words like "never", but I agree it is best practice to avoid the centerline.
I agree on tapping down the part, but who knows if I did (this video is 4 years old). I always tap my work down but sometimes the parallels still (annoyingly) move around on you.
Thanks for watching!
@2007markb I'm a big fan of Hoss, he has amazing content! . Stay tuned for some fun stuff coming in my next couple of videos.
less speed and more feed and doc may work better, think about it, if you use bigger doc you spread the wear over more of the cutting edge so you get more work out of the cutter. did you do any sfpm calcs? sounds quite fast to me. you can raise the spindle speed on the final cut with a low doc to get a nice finnish. anyway the tormach machines use r8 but the larger ones have an option for bt30 which is certainly better. it's not unique to tormach so in your comments you can refer to it as bt30.
trust me when i say even after 28yrs of conventional and CNC chip flipping i learn something new with every new piece, every new solid model and every new g-code prgrm i do,, i ruined a $1200 new 4cyl-head once about 15yrs ago because of the z-aixs drawing down on me during a decking cut (didnt lock the quill !!),, turned the spindle on backwards few years ago using my fowler-electronic edge finder on a mold-core and as the ball unscrewed itself the lil-parts flew every where in the building, at that time i really didnt think it mattered about spindle direction when it came to an edge finder but i found out like real quick it matters ! happens to us all !!
Haha, those are some great stories (I'm sure you didn't think so at the time :)
I don't mind showing people my mistakes. Maybe it will help someone else from making them.
Thanks for watching!
Looks more like a surface grinder
HAHAHAHAH!!!! Best comment I've read in a long time.
Dude, this is my recommendation, pick the BIGGEST possible project that is even remotely feasible with your mill. And go do it. It will make screw ups like this seem like foot note. You will love it.
No jokes I am making a Steam powered car for two people with mine. And I decided that would be my first project before I bought it. As a result I started to do and learn things on a whole new scale. Couldn't have done it if I was just going to "make chips" as people say
Great video. Sharing mistakes as well as successes is really valuable. I have the same mill and am going through the same process of discovery. Question - do you think it is worth removing the parallels before machining? They seem to jump around a bit anyway so they don't seem to be adding any support during machining. I already dinged one by mistake but it is still usable.
Newbie here as well, thanks for sharing. The little bit that I know, even with that much vibration, the parallels shouldn't be moving. At least I think I know! : )) lol I'm assuming you used a deadblow hammer? This coming from the guy who has yet to purchase his first mill! lol Keep em coming please.
very nice finished!
if you trying to get the tool in your g0602 cut perfect center line without concave then this is just west of time, I think you better take the saddle a parts and scrape the dovetail along with the gib that way you are ganna be sure you are straight 90 degree to the chuck...
I like this face mill, I'm going to get mine along with 24x18 AA surface plate on this black Friday!
Oz
+Ozy Ozy Very cool. I think they changed the part number on this face mill, or maybe it no longer has an integral arbor (which would be a bit nicer I think).
Very great tip. Thanks for posting!
I haven't been pulling my parallels even if they rattle loose. I've tried tightening the vise while tapping the work into the parallels with a soft hammer but it hasn't made a difference yet.
You haven't milled a lot of hardened steel I guess. Though at slow feeds like this it's not a good sign.
I have been machining a HSS end mill with a Titan carbide end mill. I take slow cuts at low RPM and shallow depth of cut, but it machines HSS like it's nothing...
It was a ruined end mill I got from a machine shop scrap... plan on turning it into a tool bit
+Tyler Fu I have never tried milling an end mill.... but now I want to :)
+russtuff I don't know the exact grade of the end mill but I did test it with a file... it's definitely harder than the cheap Chinese end mills sold by Grizzly... but I don't know if you can machine cobalt M2 type steel though... doesn't hurt to try but make sure you take very light cuts and reduce the speed a LOT. I was using 3/8" Titan 4 flute end mill, 300rpm and .01" depth of cut.
Tyler Fu Very cool though. I'm going to try it out when I get a chance.
Same thing happened to me on my g0704. Z axis needs to be really locked down hard and those screws dont look solid enough to hold z axis.
Hi Russ, I would like to see the same test with our 45 degree cutter from www.latheinserts.com.
Several things going on in your test video: Most milling inserts have a land or hone of about .010 inch. This is for strength. If the insert was ground to a dead sharp edge it would be relatively weak. Any kind of scale or interruption would destroy the edge in short order. Your depth of cut must exceed the width of the land or the material will pile up and adhere to the cutting edge. In this video the edge has build up and the friction causes the material to rub and heat up. The sparks you see are the carbon burning off at 1200 degrees. Our inserts have a special edge prep for bench top machines. The smaller land enables you to run between .030 and .093 depth of cut with super results. And they will run .010 finish pass without those sparks you see. Edge prep is everything!!
Hey Curtis, thanks for the post! I've been buying end mills from latheinserts.com but I haven't tried the inserts yet. I'll make sure to add some to my next order :)
nice face mill ! video looks good. so your going to save all your tools?
At the end you mention that you wish you went with a different style, one that will work with tormach in the future. Any suggestions? I'm a major newbie but I understand terminology for the most part.
That is how we learn.
Why would you mill a tool holder? Why not just buy the right size (8, 10, 12) and a height adjustable tool post?
1. The tool post could not be made to go any lower.
2. It's the tool I had on hand.
Please note this video is 4 years old, and the tool holder I'm machining is the very first one I bought for my lathe. In the years since, I've learned that professional machinists do the same thing with their tool holders when needed. In fact, I'm never surprised to see a machinist modify something they have to make it work. Making/modifying tools is part of the game.
Have fun!
Adam15197 I have noticed this situation as well with some of the off-brand tool holders period they advertise that it's for a Lathe with a 6 to 10 inch swing if you're using it on a 10 inch lathe you have to make sure that the tool holder is off to the side in order to lower the tool holder down low enough hanging off the side of your compound rest. what I would have done is modify the tool holder not the tool
I've modified a tool post/holder before to suit a lot of good cutters I got cheap.
Trevor Smales damn right! I just finished milling (6) 1-1/4 shank tool holders down to 3/4. Got all 6 used valenite holders on eBay for 15$. That’s why
Killer find!
slow your spindle speed down till the chips are a blue color! try it and see if that helps !!!!!
It is a screaming 1HP. STAND BACK!!!
:)
Thank you! I noticed that the shank you suggested was a straight shank. Is that preferred over an R8 style shank like 202-516? (I have an R8 taper on my quill)
Thanks!
that is a cute mill heh hows the rigidity?? going to check out a couple more vids
Thanks!
np, you got your self a new subscriber :) love the vids and commentary..
Hi I like your video, I see your commments about maybe want to use a face mill like TTs system. But do you think the TTS can have the same rigit/strength than R8 arbor? or do same work on steel/aluminium whitout vibrate or slip tts toolholder? many thanks
Agreed.
Have you subscribed to hossmachine? I believe he has the same mill and has it set up cnc.
haha, good stuff! Same power I'm working with
oh my god :D you sure bought this for fun and not for actual work
Haha. It's mostly for fun, a little bit for work.
I dont think the cutter was meant to cut heat treated steal?
The piece your machining is hardened steel, no? I have the same machine, using a fly cutter or end mill, and it doesn't even touch hardened steel. Thinking of buying a face mill like the one you have here. That seems to take a 10 thou doc fairly easily?
I am really not sure, but my gut says it's harder than regular mild steel. The face mill is a good one, but if you are planning to ever use the Tormach TTS stuff then I would suggest going with their face mill instead of integral R8 like mine is. I still use this one quite a bit though since I haven't bothered to buy another. Actually, I won't be buying another, I'll be buying the Tormach fly cutter when I get around to needing it.
Well it certainly seems to eat through that tool quite well. Thanks for the video! I plan on staying with the R8 setup, as I don't do a ton of milling. I think I'm missing something and since we have the same machine and I couldn't do what you did, I'm assuming it's my tooling that's bad. Thanks again!
those tools are case hardened about .015-.025 each side
I didn't think about that. So, you're saying he has exposed the soft nougat center?
Thanks :)
Why are you using 2" face mill for that small of a part, your going to have tool heat fracture issues. You shouldn't really go less than 1/2 tool diameter for a carbide face mill.
No clue. When I made this video 7 years ago I was super new to machining. It might also have been the only tool I had at the time. The 1/2 diameter idea is probably a safe rule of thumb.
I just ordered this same face mill, what rpm were you running it at?
I was at 2100rpm and should have been in the 400rpm range.
*****
If I'm going pretty slow, I can run a deeper cut in steel but it needs to be a very rigid clamping. Your right about this mill, it is not rigid at all.
Careful bud
robert clark :)
Sorry man but your videos are killing me lol There's nothing wrong with the tools you are using its the user, this video your rpm is to hi, the job isn't offset and you don't use a coolant or cutting spray. The reason i commented is because one of my new apprentices has actually been watching your videos applying it in my workshop and destroying tools. I mean this in the nicest way :) If your after any advice feel free to inbox me, would be glad to help out.
Another contributing factor: The utility inserts you are using have a huge hone on the edge. This creates a rubbing action on light DOC's and adds even more friction. Try running at least .030 or more DOC and at least .003 per tooth on the feed rate. That will thicken up the chip and your inserts will last way longer.
Cheers!
ExKenna from latheinserts (dot) com
could you tell what is the part no. of SHARS facemill and adapter for MT2/MT10 taper for g0704?
+Alexander Buraga Check the link in the description for the one I have. Thanks for watching.
What's the horse power on this mill?
Nice video.
Awesome Awesome Awesome Video! Thank you! ((Subscribed!!))
RPM waaaaaaay too high!
Sparks are for grinders, not mills. This is painful to watch and even worse to listen to. God help the soul that gets your used equipment.
I hope your learning, meanwhile I will pray for you.
oops
id like to see that video :D
I forgot to add... You need some coolant or cutting oil too!
+PanamaSticks Sandvik advices against using coolant on carbide tooling when possible, especially on roughing stainless which generates a lot of heat (and the heat shock could damage the insert). Also, he could offset the tool from workpiece center to make the chips thinner. Forty five deg inserts thin the chip to 1/sqrt(2) from what it would be with 90deg insert, and offsetting the workpiece from center would thin it more. Thinner chips at insert exit point is also easier on insert due to outgoing chip not yanking the insert edge and possibly fracturing it. Also entering the workpiece at an angle is easier on the inserts as the insert doesn't "slam" 90deg into the material possibly damaging it. I'd definetly hardmill something if i could and wouldn't have to buy a surface grinder. I'm not an expert, but getting an owen or surface grinder or torching a heat treatment from a tool is an overkill. Especially when that shank probably is not hardened.
+Tiivi Vaavi I've been machining at my present job for 15 1/2 years. I don't cut much stainless, but it is precisely because stainless generates a lot of heat, that I would use a flood coolant. Carbide or not, if you don't do something to reduce the temperature buildup, both the cutter and the work expand and the cut gets progressively deeper. I may be wrong, but I don't think flood coolant or a steady stream of coolant is going to cause much thermal shock. Having the wrong grade of coolant will result in a chipped insert.... Sandvik makes and sells inserts, right? Maybe they want people to buy more......
+PanamaSticks You are probably right. At low cutting speeds, dwpths of cuts and feeds thermal shock wouldnt probably be an issue. Besides i wouldnt want chips flying out of a manual mill like from a machine gun. Im glad the shank turned out ok ;D I just really didn't like your hobbyists having too much this and that comment.
+Tiivi Vaavi I hope you didn't think I was ridiculing or insulting you. I just hate to see expensive tooling destroyed, and I thought I should make some suggestions. Believe me, I have destroyed plenty of cutters and inserts myself. We are very cash poor at work, and because of that, I have probably become too cautious about feed rates and spindle speeds. And I no longer work in a big shop with other machinists. So I really can't say from experience whether Sandvik knows what they are talking about.
+PanamaSticks No, I didn't think that, nor did I try to do that to you. I thought your message was somewhat insulting and discouraging and arrogant to russtuff. I work in a poor shop aswell, and I'm a new machinist working on an old machining center. While I'm sure you could teach me a whole bunch of stuff, but theres still things I know but you don't. If you get arrogant, people just wait out the lecture and then move on.
[edit] I must have been on a bad mood or tired when reading your original post for being... so over over... reactive ;D
to fast...
I get that a lot on this video :)
For the record, no damage to the tool or inserts, no heat built up.... which means I probably could have gone faster. I think we should save "to fast" for things like "caused damage to something" or "caused excessive wear" or "caused to much heat buildup".
All that said, I think I got lucky and if I were doing it again, I'd go slower.
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