I really appreciate the unstated and nuanced views you both bring. Adaptations are tricky and I enjoy have a mature discussion about the merits of changes. Keep up the great work.
On the whole, I have thought they have done an amazing job so far, but, it is not just that Daemon's plan is insane and ridiculous (it certainly was insane and ridiculous), it is that it also would never have worked. He would have been cut down by the archers before he ever got close to the Crabfeeder. This is one of the criticisms I used to have towards the end of GOT, they would do things that looked good but didn't make much strategic sense.
I think of it a bit like the scene in DANCING WITH WOLVES where Dunbar rides back and forth between the lines, Confederates all shooting at him and missing miraculously. May even have been an inspiration, since their distraction leads to the Union being able to advance and defeat them. I think archers at that height and distance are just saturating a general area, they can't really aim for a person. I have other issues with the scene, as discussed -- I don't think anyone would come up with that plan! -- but surviving the archers is the least of it. Especially as he was at least hit by them.
In the Inside the Episode, they admit the plan is insane and ridiculous, something only a madman could pull off - specifically because...he's god-damned Daemon Targaryen, the Rogue Prince! So I accept that, yeah, it's totally his style; he did something reckless and brilliant rather than accept defeat (his brother's help)
I understand the intent, but the plan was formulated by the Velaryons, and I don't think any of them are crazy enough to think that one up, and I also don't know that Craghas Drahar would be so greyscale-addled that he would send his remaining men out there to try and get him. He's coming after him anyways, why not wait for him to show up at the mouth of a cavern? It was very cool but not very sensical. And I'm fine with it being this crazy act of insane courage from Daemon. I just think we have to suspend more belief than usual with this particular sequence.
@@WesterosTV The whole situation as portrayed doesn't really make sense. How are you losing a war where you are the only one with an air force and have the enemy trapped in caves on an island? Torch any supply ship that gets near and wait. As you say, it is meant to look dramatic. And writers don't expect us to think about it. But I do, I cannot stop myself. And it's painfully clear far too many Hollywood writers weren't ever in the same room as a military history book.
@@Elmarby During the battle table talk they say there is a choke point. Archers hold the high ground, foot soldiers hold the ground. hmm OK, dragons hit the archers on the high ground/cliffs. Your better trained and armored soldiers proceed to engage the soldiers on the ground.
I can see the way it can work, since they are basically trying to lay siege to the island but are unable to get a foothold. They can try to starve them out with a naval blockade and dragons, yes, but they can't cover the whole stretch of sea even with two dragons on a 24/7 basis, and they have no way for ships to signal for dragons if they spot them out to sea. One supposes they could launch up a flight for a few minutes every hour to get a visual with an extended horizon, but what about at night? The one thing they should have done is indicate that Drahar's forces controlled at least two of the islands, and Drahar was pinned down on one. The other island could have been the source of supplies and support for Drahar's forces, sending out boats and ships under cover of darkness to provide supplies and fresh men, and would have been something where they couldn't really get ahold of because of the losses they'd suffered up to that point. With that in mind, it would be easier to see why they were at this impasse, unable to break the resistance of the Triarchy on Bloodstone and facing their own logistical hurdles to maintaining their siege of the island. This fits the book version of events as well. Drahar actually dies two years into the war, but it's in the third year that Daemon feels secure enough to declare victory (even though two of the Stepstones still are not in his grasp).
Well, at least Daemon got injured during the battle by an arrow, unlike Jon whose plot armor protected him from a similar but much more hopeless situation during the Battle Of The Bastards.
Daemons victory and the dreams suggests we are meant in this show to regard at least some Targaryens not only as dragon riders but as slightly beyond humans (like elves in LOTR)
Went with zero expectation, and after three episodes I am impressed by the show, yeah it is not perfect but I think HBO did a rly good job for now at least. Your video is a must after each episode of course
15:00 - I think it's worth noting though that it's Viserys who says that he sees his heir on the throne. We actually don't see the vision though. So it could easily be that something was on the throne but that "thing" was not a literal person but something that Viserys interpreted as "his heir." So it'd be like if Egg's brother had dreamed of the toppled dragon, correctly guessed that it was Baelor and then said "My brother Baelor's corpse was laying there." And in this case it could be that Viserys is wrong about his interpretation as well.
Not impossible, though I think he could have become convinced based on reading something, and there was always the shadow of Summerhall that could have haunted him and made him try to understand why what happened happened.
He sees his son on the Iron Throne and Aegon II will cause thundering hooves and battling knights because he's going to destroy the House of the Dragon. The dragons roared because they're battling each other. Aegon II is also wearing Aegon's crown because Viserys' own crown is stolen and given to Rhaenyra.
I do think that Viserys is not a "dreamer" as other previous Targaryen have been. He just had a normal dream where he had a son and that son would end up becoming King. The "dreams" are usually more prophethic and very open to interpretation as you guys mentioned, yet him, in his ignorance, knowing of these Targaryen "dreamers", believes he has the same gift even if he experienced it (as he believes wrongly) only once.
Completely agree that Daemons plan was incredibly stupid and kinda betrays the realistic gritty essence of George RR Martin creation.... All that part was very dumb as a whole. They forced the war to seem desperate to make s bigger impact and it ended up being plain idiotic. About the shape of Caraxes, I LOVE it. It perfectly depicts the serpentine nature of its rider
Hello.. Best Regards from to Venezuela.. excelentes comentarios, si hacen resúmenes en español para usuarios de Latinoamérica sería fantástico.. gracias por su magnífico trabajo 👍
So greyscale isn't a deadly plague to be terrified of anymore? It was funny to see that scene play like that. It reminded me to GoT not in the best way, like the intro 😬 It was an ok episode. I bet there's going to be better ones. The editing felt a bit weird. I saw somewhere that there was an unfinished vfx effect on the king's finger, you can see the green tape instead of the chopped finger.
It may be that Drahar's greyscale is supposed to be in a passive stage or "cured", just scarring him like Shireen. Of course, the wildlings tell Jon that there's no such thing and that Shireen will eventually become infective again, so who knows? Alternatively, well, Drahar's men were probably terrified of him, but Daemon not caring -- trusting to the belief that the Targaryens are mostly immune to mortal disease -- seems in character. It's absolutely true they managed to miss editing out two fingers. You can see it in the scene where he hands Ser Addam, the Targaryen guardsman, the scroll to deliver to Daemon. They are under an incredible deadline, one has to admit -- even now, more than 18 months after production began, they're _still_ finishing post-production -- but hopefully this is something they can fix and replace on HBO Max and/or for the Bluray.
It's very odd. As we've said, all the Dance material was written by George, but it was first written for our book and used by us to present the very compressed version seen in THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE. We were basically the first people in the world to read it all, along with our editor. It's because of that fact that we're not reviewing the show, just talking about changes and background and the like. It would seem odd to us to review a show that is based on material written by George for the book with our names on it.
This episode didn t sit down good..did it? Loved some parts...others meeh...don t know. I don t like changes from the book But the book is just fake history...so they got to fill in. The hunt was ok Stepstones...i don t know
Loving Considine's Viserys, it's interesting to see a King struggling to make decisions and try to rule effectively, something we didn't see much of in GoT. Also, even if there was some plot armour going on, I liked how they didn't give Daemon any lines in the final scenes, it didn't need any. On the eye roll front, them mentioning yet again that HV is "pure Valyrian blood", I think for the 3rd or maybe even 4th time so far, came across as compensating for their choice in casting. I mean, it should be pretty obvious who is Valyrian and who isn't...
At least the show finally depicted the King’s hunt accurately.
I have not watched a single episode of the show. But I've not missed a single episode of your Westeros channel.
Thank you!
I really appreciate the unstated and nuanced views you both bring.
Adaptations are tricky and I enjoy have a mature discussion about the merits of changes.
Keep up the great work.
Much appreciated!
On the whole, I have thought they have done an amazing job so far, but, it is not just that Daemon's plan is insane and ridiculous (it certainly was insane and ridiculous), it is that it also would never have worked. He would have been cut down by the archers before he ever got close to the Crabfeeder. This is one of the criticisms I used to have towards the end of GOT, they would do things that looked good but didn't make much strategic sense.
I think of it a bit like the scene in DANCING WITH WOLVES where Dunbar rides back and forth between the lines, Confederates all shooting at him and missing miraculously. May even have been an inspiration, since their distraction leads to the Union being able to advance and defeat them. I think archers at that height and distance are just saturating a general area, they can't really aim for a person.
I have other issues with the scene, as discussed -- I don't think anyone would come up with that plan! -- but surviving the archers is the least of it. Especially as he was at least hit by them.
best place to go if you need an accurate book comparisson. I've missed you two's faces and ASOIAF wisdom. Hope all is well. Hello from Cali.
Wow, thank you!
In the Inside the Episode, they admit the plan is insane and ridiculous, something only a madman could pull off - specifically because...he's god-damned Daemon Targaryen, the Rogue Prince! So I accept that, yeah, it's totally his style; he did something reckless and brilliant rather than accept defeat (his brother's help)
I understand the intent, but the plan was formulated by the Velaryons, and I don't think any of them are crazy enough to think that one up, and I also don't know that Craghas Drahar would be so greyscale-addled that he would send his remaining men out there to try and get him. He's coming after him anyways, why not wait for him to show up at the mouth of a cavern?
It was very cool but not very sensical. And I'm fine with it being this crazy act of insane courage from Daemon. I just think we have to suspend more belief than usual with this particular sequence.
@@WesterosTV The whole situation as portrayed doesn't really make sense.
How are you losing a war where you are the only one with an air force and have the enemy trapped in caves on an island? Torch any supply ship that gets near and wait.
As you say, it is meant to look dramatic. And writers don't expect us to think about it. But I do, I cannot stop myself. And it's painfully clear far too many Hollywood writers weren't ever in the same room as a military history book.
@@Elmarby During the battle table talk they say there is a choke point. Archers hold the high ground, foot soldiers hold the ground. hmm OK, dragons hit the archers on the high ground/cliffs. Your better trained and armored soldiers proceed to engage the soldiers on the ground.
I can see the way it can work, since they are basically trying to lay siege to the island but are unable to get a foothold. They can try to starve them out with a naval blockade and dragons, yes, but they can't cover the whole stretch of sea even with two dragons on a 24/7 basis, and they have no way for ships to signal for dragons if they spot them out to sea. One supposes they could launch up a flight for a few minutes every hour to get a visual with an extended horizon, but what about at night?
The one thing they should have done is indicate that Drahar's forces controlled at least two of the islands, and Drahar was pinned down on one. The other island could have been the source of supplies and support for Drahar's forces, sending out boats and ships under cover of darkness to provide supplies and fresh men, and would have been something where they couldn't really get ahold of because of the losses they'd suffered up to that point. With that in mind, it would be easier to see why they were at this impasse, unable to break the resistance of the Triarchy on Bloodstone and facing their own logistical hurdles to maintaining their siege of the island.
This fits the book version of events as well. Drahar actually dies two years into the war, but it's in the third year that Daemon feels secure enough to declare victory (even though two of the Stepstones still are not in his grasp).
The royal tent at the hunt was great; Prequel Lannisters!, Johanna Swann mention!!!
Well, at least Daemon got injured during the battle by an arrow, unlike Jon whose plot armor protected him from a similar but much more hopeless situation during the Battle Of The Bastards.
Daemons victory and the dreams suggests we are meant in this show to regard at least some Targaryens not only as dragon riders but as slightly beyond humans (like elves in LOTR)
One man's blood magic is another man's genetic engineering
Went with zero expectation, and after three episodes I am impressed by the show, yeah it is not perfect but I think HBO did a rly good job for now at least. Your video is a must after each episode of course
Thanks!
....I wonder how canon Jason and Tyland’s mother is...with GRRM as a consultant...
15:00 - I think it's worth noting though that it's Viserys who says that he sees his heir on the throne. We actually don't see the vision though. So it could easily be that something was on the throne but that "thing" was not a literal person but something that Viserys interpreted as "his heir." So it'd be like if Egg's brother had dreamed of the toppled dragon, correctly guessed that it was Baelor and then said "My brother Baelor's corpse was laying there." And in this case it could be that Viserys is wrong about his interpretation as well.
I feel like Rhaegar might have been a dreamer too?
Not impossible, though I think he could have become convinced based on reading something, and there was always the shadow of Summerhall that could have haunted him and made him try to understand why what happened happened.
He sees his son on the Iron Throne and Aegon II will cause thundering hooves and battling knights because he's going to destroy the House of the Dragon. The dragons roared because they're battling each other. Aegon II is also wearing Aegon's crown because Viserys' own crown is stolen and given to Rhaenyra.
I do think that Viserys is not a "dreamer" as other previous Targaryen have been. He just had a normal dream where he had a son and that son would end up becoming King. The "dreams" are usually more prophethic and very open to interpretation as you guys mentioned, yet him, in his ignorance, knowing of these Targaryen "dreamers", believes he has the same gift even if he experienced it (as he believes wrongly) only once.
Completely agree that Daemons plan was incredibly stupid and kinda betrays the realistic gritty essence of George RR Martin creation.... All that part was very dumb as a whole. They forced the war to seem desperate to make s bigger impact and it ended up being plain idiotic.
About the shape of Caraxes, I LOVE it. It perfectly depicts the serpentine nature of its rider
Hello.. Best Regards from to Venezuela.. excelentes comentarios, si hacen resúmenes en español para usuarios de Latinoamérica sería fantástico.. gracias por su magnífico trabajo 👍
Pues para eso echa un vistazo a nuestro amigo Javi Marcos!
So greyscale isn't a deadly plague to be terrified of anymore?
It was funny to see that scene play like that. It reminded me to GoT not in the best way, like the intro 😬
It was an ok episode. I bet there's going to be better ones. The editing felt a bit weird. I saw somewhere that there was an unfinished vfx effect on the king's finger, you can see the green tape instead of the chopped finger.
It may be that Drahar's greyscale is supposed to be in a passive stage or "cured", just scarring him like Shireen. Of course, the wildlings tell Jon that there's no such thing and that Shireen will eventually become infective again, so who knows? Alternatively, well, Drahar's men were probably terrified of him, but Daemon not caring -- trusting to the belief that the Targaryens are mostly immune to mortal disease -- seems in character.
It's absolutely true they managed to miss editing out two fingers. You can see it in the scene where he hands Ser Addam, the Targaryen guardsman, the scroll to deliver to Daemon. They are under an incredible deadline, one has to admit -- even now, more than 18 months after production began, they're _still_ finishing post-production -- but hopefully this is something they can fix and replace on HBO Max and/or for the Bluray.
A decent episode. The circumstances of the siege and the actual battle itself made no sense. Visually it looked cool.
How does it feel like watching Tv show being made about something you guys wrote.(I believe you guys wrote like 30% of World of Ice and Fire)
It's very odd. As we've said, all the Dance material was written by George, but it was first written for our book and used by us to present the very compressed version seen in THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE. We were basically the first people in the world to read it all, along with our editor.
It's because of that fact that we're not reviewing the show, just talking about changes and background and the like. It would seem odd to us to review a show that is based on material written by George for the book with our names on it.
@@WesterosTV totally get your reasoning, but still, who better to review it than George himself!
This episode didn t sit down good..did it?
Loved some parts...others meeh...don t know.
I don t like changes from the book
But the book is just fake history...so they got to fill in.
The hunt was ok
Stepstones...i don t know
Loving Considine's Viserys, it's interesting to see a King struggling to make decisions and try to rule effectively, something we didn't see much of in GoT. Also, even if there was some plot armour going on, I liked how they didn't give Daemon any lines in the final scenes, it didn't need any.
On the eye roll front, them mentioning yet again that HV is "pure Valyrian blood", I think for the 3rd or maybe even 4th time so far, came across as compensating for their choice in casting. I mean, it should be pretty obvious who is Valyrian and who isn't...