Is my Dado Stack Illegal? Steve Maskery debunks the MYTH!
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- Опубліковано 2 бер 2021
- Some people seem to think that using a Dado Stack on a tablesaw is illegal in the UK and Europe. Steve Maskery looks at what the Regulations really say.
The actual UK HSE legislation can be found here:
www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf
The Complete Tablesaw suite is available here:
www.stevemaskery.com/workshop...
You will receive the download links by email, usually within a few hours (I do sleep occasionally...).
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As a former electrical student, I remember that H&S regs only cover businesses that employ between 5-10 people (can’t remember the exact number), but in reality, if I was a H&S officer, I’d be more concerned about the lack of defibrillators on many sites I’ve worked on than improper guarding on machinery!
Heart problems and high blood pressure have killed more workers on site than dado blades, porkchop guards and illegal tooling will ever do harm to anyone!
That's an interesting perspective, I'd never thought of that.
Very informative as usual Steve. Thank you!
Thank you. Very informative and for someone who has been looking at various upgrades to my very limited table saw to allow me to use a dado set, The information on stopping time, guards and arbor are very informative and may help me decide on my next saw. Thanks again.
Thanks for this information Steve. Cheerios!
🙏Thank you so much for sharing this info with us, I was a little surprised when I heard about the ban so I looked for more info and here I am. I shall check my table saw and see if and how I could install a Dado blade and it won't be difficult to construct appropriate safety guard.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing 🌞
Looks like you're describing the video I just watched! Went to Google straight away and got sent here haha.
brilliant very well put
Good info Steve, thanks
Excellent, thanks Steve that has cleared that old chestnut up very succinctly. I’ve always wondered whether dado sets we’re truly illegal in this country or not, now I know! Brilliant, thanks again and keep up the good work.
P.S. how about a video on your sharpening techniques?
I am in the US. The government (OSHA) regs on businesses, is for the safety of its employees. The government had to make regulations because there was a time workers had no choice but to use very dangerous machinery and resulted in many injuries and deaths. I believe the European regulations are in place for much the same reason. I have an old custom-made table saw which would not meet safety regulations in business but is totally ok for me to own in my home shop. I bought it at an antique tool store and instead of an electric motor it hooks up to a gas motor which is 25 hp. I can use a 16-inch blade (406.4mm) on it which no problems.
The blade mass position is also important for angular momentum. If the mass is positioned more towards the perimeter away from the center of rotation then the angular momentum is higher at the same rotating speed and same mass. The dado stack diameter is smaller than the regular blade what you presented.
Thanks for that information. I use homemade versions of the grrripper at the table saw an often wondered if they are allowed in a commercial setting.
Hi Steve. Many thanks again. I got lucky. I found an Oshlun set on Amazon in Germany for the very reasonable price of around 105 Euros.
That's very good. My first set cost a lot more than that 30 years ago!
Just came from the Sawstop video to check if it is for real illigal in EU. ty for the info
Getting harder to find a table saw that you can use a dado stack on because of the arbor . Also not many stores selling dado stacks . Hell I am about ready to make a dado stack tool out of blades and spacers
As an American super casual woodworker , dados have always been just one of the tools to do a specific job.
What I find puzzling is why is the unguarded use of a table saw such a huge danger? If you are wearing proper eye protection and use proper table saw technique and push blocks and sticks , I cannot understand where the guard provides any additional safety. If seems the guards is just there to protect against improper table saw technique.
What am I missing?
The guard is so that you don't plant your face on the blade in case you happen to trip or slip near the saw. Not only when it's spinning but also when not in use, because even falling on the stationary blade could mean having a really bad time.
There's a heck of a lot of du basses who don't use proper technique, guards are a bit of a catch-all
the regs say the blade should protrude through the wood being cut, or they did when i took an exam on it. so blind/double cutting is illegal too. but sure if it's at home you can do what you like.
Hi Peter, you are absolutely right for a standard blade. But when I nade that film I went to the HSE with all the info I was proposing to use and it got a clean bill of health. I've not presented anuthing here that is not HSE approved. Or at least, it was then.
Hi new subscriber excellent videos, I would like to know how you make the throat plats for your saw as I have the same one. Mine also came with 30mm 16mm and longer 30mm for dadoes
It's funny you should say that, I need some new ones. I'll do a video when I get round to making them.
Thanks for the video, very helpful and informative. One thing that I don't understand is the HSE guidance/law you linked to says the teeth of the saw blade must project through the material. Dose this mean a dado stack cannot be used? It also says cutting grooves and rebates is ok providing there is adiquate gaurding which seems like a total contradiction because the teeth cannot project through the material in these operations. I know you are not responsible for the HSE advise but I would be interested to hear your point of view on the matter.
I agree with you, it sounds contradictory. All I can say is that when I made my Workshop Essentials DVD, over a decade ago now, I consulted the HSE for confirmation of my understanding and that was what I was told.
@@SteveMaskery thanks for your reply. It is a curious contradiction from HSE. And so thanks for your advise and videos too.
Also please list you table saw model no.
Great video Steve, what table saw do you have? Thanks 🙏
It's called an Xcalibur. It used to be sold by Woodford in the UK, but sadly is no longer available. I believe the Harvey is just about the same saw. It's actually a Far Eastern clone of an old Delta model. If you ever find one for sale second hand, snap it up.
@@SteveMaskery thanks Steve I will definitely be keeping an eye out for one. 👍
Haha I searched this straight away after seeing the saw stop video
Came straight from the same video you watched. Had to assure myself I'm within the law 😂
Hi Steve. Many thanks for another brilliant video. Big question, which I hope you can help with. My Lumberjack table saw can take a dado stack, which I really need, but nobody in the States seems willing to ship to Ireland. So PLEEEEZE tell me where I can buy one here in the EU. Many thanks again.
Hi Martin. Mine is a Freud, made in Italy, so they are available on this side of the pond. I don't know about the EU, after you-know-what, but in the UK they used to be available from Woodford Tooling, now listed as Out Of Stock. But Scott and Sergeant have them listed, you could try them.
www.scosarg.com/search-results#/embedded/query=dado
@@SteveMaskery Many thanks Steve. Ireland is still in the EU, so I'll try Freud in the EU countries, as from the UK it involves heavy import duties. If that fails Il try Scott and Sergeant.
Thanks again.
Hi Martin. I’ve been using Freud dado sets for years here in Ireland. Any dealer selling Freud will get you one. There are also other brands. No problem buying dado stacks but as Steve has said it’s how you use them that seems to be the problem.
Had no clue what a dado was, watched that other video he referenced and had to know why they were illegal allegedlyc. Now I am an expert lol
The riving knife prevents kick back, suerly that's the problem and where it may be encroaching on the legislation?
Hi Jim. A Riving Knife is of no use with a Dado stack as a RK needs to be thicker than the plate of the blade but less than the kerf. That is a Ripping issue. The issue with a Dado stack is the braking time and the dificulty in guarding it adequately.
@@SteveMaskery Indeed Steve. Also as a dado cut is not a through cut, kick back is far less likely than doing a rip cut without a riving knife.
Steve, I attempted to go to the above link for the "Complete Tablesaw suite" and got a 404 error code. Could you please update the website and let me know? Thanks Daniel.
Thanks for pointing that out Daniel. The new link should now work. The videos are separate products but the price is actually ten quid cheaper now than when I made that video. Fill yer boots. :)
There is another school out there suggesting that, due to the extra mass/inertia of the blade, there may be a propensity for the nut to come loose during braking which could offer an unpleasant surprise on the next start-up? Having said that...I do wish my Yankee saw did stop a little quicker. Waiting there staring at that blade is nearly as boring as sanding.
I've never heard of that happening. That said, I'm not saying that that is impossible. But if the blade is installed properly, the risk of it coming loose during braking is a risk I am prepared to take. And I am generally risk-averse.
@@SteveMaskery Agreed. All things being equal, there really shouldn't be an event short of a saw where the nut has be needlessly over-tightened to distortion in a considerable length of time. Even in that case, a flip of the throat plate with a wrench visit for the sake of certainty wouldn't be a significant intrusion on the workflow. Thanks for the video...it's helping me sort a few 'arguments'. Here's hoping the mother country gets a longer arbor some day. Cheers!
Left handed threads on my table saw in the US. The nut will not back off!
@@TheFalconJetDriver Agreed. I'm on my 5th and likely last saw unless somebody wants to gift me something better. Two were LH thread and I only once had a nut loose not on either of those two and it was easily explained as me being the guilty party. A mistake I'm sure not to repeat with a new, strict checklist regimen, free of distractions and interupptions during a blade change.
@@TheFalconJetDriver the concern about the braking of the blade is indeed because of this reverse thread. When the motor is driving the blades the rotational acceleration and forces are in the direction that tightens the nut on the thread as you indicated.
However when the motor is brake slowed, it slows faster than the mass of the blades , and as sich the rotational forces working on the arbor nut under motor braking cause the inertia in the blade to be more substantially working in the opposite direction . The blade resists slowing (one of newtons laws) and that inertia reproduced force is then working in the direction that ‘could’ loosen the nut.
Chance of it doing so on a super short arbor? Not sure.
If you Google this, there are two contradictory answers right at the top.
There are indeed contradictory answers, so you have to ask yourself who do you trust? Do you take the word of some random bloke on the internet or that of the UK Health and Safety Executive? I know which one I prefer.
Whilst I agree with you that they are not illegal, I would say that there are much safer ways of cutting a dado than by using a dado set. Within a commercial environment there is no way an employer would use them because of the duty of care they have to protect their work force and while The Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 (PUWER) doesn't prescriptively ban them, there is enough in there to make the decision of an employer not to use them the correct decision.
Obviously, you are speaking to the hobby woodworker through these videos but would you be happy for a boiler installer to make a video suggesting that installing your own boiler at home is okay as long as you take the correct precautions because it's not illegal?
You'd bite their hands off? LOLOLOLOLOL Can you explain the metaphor? So they dont take the saw back after?? lololol
Ha! :) It's an old saying, which means you'd accept very quickly, without hesitation. It's funny how we use phrases without thinking that they will be unintelligible to people who are not familiar with them. I'm glad I (inadvertently) made you laugh!
The saw is an Xcalibur. It came from Woodford Woodworking Machinery, but sadly they are no longer available in the UK, as far as I am aware. It is a Chinese clone of an old American Delta design. Harvey and Deft are two similar brands - old-fashioned design, but built like a tank.
@@SteveMaskery IT is now a " ST-12D " In many commercial stuffs had rectangular throat plates like sewing machines if you search consew sewing the mosy serious commerica machines have rec. It does not seem to be the case with table saws too much but I did find the model copy of yours. When I saw yours, I went on a search. I was always searching for a way to modify a table saw to accept a arbor extension. Mostly I was interested in modifying a OLD unisaw. I was going to make a gang rip saw by spacers and many blades, of course i would run wit with an auto feeder.
Okay if there not illegal why is it a lot more difficult to get the dado blades, and new thought plates, I lived in America and it’s easy to get the dado blades and anything else you need, this country is so regulated, this country is hard work.
Well yes, but over here woodworkers also have more fingers per capita! :) Any Freud retailer will be able to order them for you and Woodford also sell a set.
@@SteveMaskery okay there not completely illegal, but it’s just so difficult to get them in England, and we have more fingers per capita, I don’t know about that, this country is so anal with health and safety, what ever happened to freedom and common sense.
@@spilleradam If you are a hobby woodworker, you can take any risks you like and you won't get penalised for it. We even have a publicly-funded NHS which will sort you out, at no immediate cost to you, if you hurt yourself. It's fantastic, is it not? I certainly appreciate it.
@@SteveMaskery thanks for that, information about the NHS , I’ve been a carpenter for over 25 years and I’ve never cut or injured myself on a table saw, or any other power tool , I just think this country is over regulated health and safety.
@@spilleradam The problem is, Adam, that not everyone is as skilled and experienced as you are. So when some novice sees someone on UA-cam doing something which they do not realise is risky, the consequences, if they decide to copy such practice, can be devastating to them personally and to the public purse more distantly.
By all means get a saw that will take a dado. Use it. But be aware of the risks and minimise those risks by using good techniques and safety procedures. That way we get the benefits of using a dado stack, without exposing ourselves to unnecessary risk.
At least, that's what I try to do, and what I try to demonstrate and encourage others to do.
In Denmark, its illegal
Hi Glenn. I didn't know that. Under what legislation please? Always happy to learn!
You know that do not remove under penalty of law tag on the mattress? I tore it off. I live life on the edge. Government stay out of my private life. If I get hurt it’s on me.
Do you wear a seatbelt?
I don't think it should be illegal for home use
What a grown man wants to do in his own home has nothing to do with anyone, no need for the state to baby him into safety if he chooses not to do it himself for whatever reason
It’s not illegal at home , health and safety don’t apply in a home setup. The only problem you may have is in not being able to buy a saw and dado stack in your country. Curious if import restrictions exist that would exacerbate that.