I must be old. When I was in school we had to take a mandatory "keyboarding" class. Looking back, I'm glad I did. I can't imagine what it's like to sit down in front of a keyboard and not know where the keys are!
I must be older. When I was in high school we took a "typing" class using mechanical typewriters. AAA BBB CCC..... I had never heard of the term "keyboarding" at that time. LOL!!
I'm a youngster who sadly never properly learned to type so I just use basically 4 of my fingers flying all over the place. My typing speed isn't bad (85WPM) but I'm scared of repetitive strain injuries. I figured it'd be pretty hard to relearn how to type but not much harder if I just learned an entirely new keyboard layout so I decided to learn Dvorak. Anyway, I'm disappointed it isn't a mandatory course (or a course at all in my case) anymore. I could've saved myself a lot of time and effort that way.
I had this annoying colleague at work that loved coming to my desk and trying stuff at my PC. I bought 10keyless cherry brown mechanical switches keyboard, with no markings on the keys! This keyboard alone stopped him annoying me!
In another office we had this april fool where they changed the keys on the keyboards. The caps were easy to remove and shuffle. After 3 months one colleague noticed that I still haven't switched back my keys -- I haven't noticed it at all
@@SirT0M1 It's all the same. Kind of like how "gym class" has turned into "Physical Education. I had to sit at the keyboard with a piece of paper over my fingers to learn how to type. AAA BBB CCC. haha
Battery life is INSANE! Now you know why there's no back lighting. This has been my work keyboard for the past year and it has helped my hands out even though I've had a busy year. Totally recommended. $130 is nothing compared to going through carpal tunnel release surgery. Take care of yourself.
I've been using ergonomic keyboard from almost the start, from 1995 with the first Microsoft natural keyboard. I'm using Ms natural 4000 now. It's really strange to see that flat, box keyboards are dominating. It's really good that Logitech is joining the ergonomic competition. Thank you for the review.
I had the MS Natural 4000 & loved it. It's junk now (age). Apparently ergonomic keyboards don't sell well in India because I could find so few choices and they're all so overpriced. Plus, none of the seem to be backlit, really important for me since I often work in a dark-ish room with a little bit of indirect light falling on my desk.
Yes! I've been wanting to see more split keyboards in the market. :) I have bad RSI, I can't use a normal keyboard for more than a few minutes without pain. I've been using the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard for years. If Logitech accepts any feedback, I'd love to see a tenkeyless version. The extra distance the keypad adds to my right arms travel when switching between keyboard and mouse adds to my RSI pain. I'd also love to see a mechanical version. My Sculpt has low profile keys, and the I start noticing the travel distance being too short after long coding or gaming sessions. My ultimate dream keyboard is a version of the Kinesis Advantage 2 that lets your wrist rest at an angle instead of straight. Anyway, I hope this spurs more companies to try selling ergonomic keyboards. It's a market that needs a lot more competition.
I need to have the keypad as an accountant so I was forced to solve that issue by learning to mouse with my left hand. The reason for this is because I had developed nervous tension in my right arm and it got so bad my right arm and hand would go completely numb. It took me maybe 3 weeks to become proficient. So my “right” click is now a left click as I made my mouse a true left handed mouse. My nervous tension has gone away with physio and has not come back since I started mousing with my left hand and using an ergonomic keyboard. I use the cheap wired Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 at work and bought myself the Logitech Ergo K860 for working at home. I like them both but I think my preference is the feel of the Logitech one.
Touch typing is something you can learn from a library book. I found a typewriter-based book at my library and went through it for a few weeks. My typing immediately improved, and it really clicked once I had to do a lot of writing for online classes. It IS about muscle memory, and some key movements such as using your left index finger for "B" are initially awkward, yet it's totally worth it. Especially if you know keyboard shortcuts for your operating system, your productivity improves DRAMATICALLY. It's not just that you don't need to look at your fingers, it's that you hardly need to use your mouse! You probably have no idea, but your keyboard can pretty much do it all, and it's a fun feeling. If I were you, I'd make touch typing a goal and get started on it today. Especially if enjoy life hacks or you fancy yourself a computer person, a gamer, or you work in an office. OMG, office people should HAVE TO learn touch typing, if just to make their life way EASIER. Anyway, best of luck.
Lately im on a self development streak and am learning typing the "proper" way this time after all these years typing with 2 fingers each hand. Thats why I bought the Microsoft sculpt wireless for 30 bucks used!
I am probably one of the youngest amongst the comment section. I'm 15 turning 16 and the thing is, my wrist pain and hands were aching nonstop and due to the lockdown, it worsened to the point that I couldn't even eat properly. I bought the ergo keyboard a few days ago and it just came in two days ago and I love it. I guess I'm more of a touch typist, but I still do make mistakes because I don't really have the whole layout memorized. This is also my first ergo keyboard and I can tell you that I work at night with the lights ON so I do not find it a dealbreaker if it does not have backlighting. I found this to be expensive, but in the long term, this is a much better solution. Now I'm waiting for my ergonomic mouse. BTW the pain has lessened like crazy for me so this keyboard is a lifesaver.
For anyone who might read this: if you want to learn to touch type, look into mnemonics! It's possible - and easy - to memorize the qwerty layout in 7h (breaks included) + some extra hours to gain speed. I couldn't believe that would work, when my parents signed me up for a 1-day course of that type. My siblings later visited the same course and thats how we learned touch typing. One thing though: it's a soft programming of muscle memory, so if you use your past typing scheme in the first few days after the course, you completely ruin it. So be careful and patient or straight out put the course in your holidays.
Yeah, you can get used to anything. I don't have this, but I do have a split keyboard. At first it was weird, now it is harder going back to regular keyboards than using the split one.
Considering your age, I highly feel that the reasoning for your wrist ache is due to you not properly positioning your wrist when you use a keyboard. This ergo keyboard would help because the wrist rest and shape forces your hand to be positioned correctly. I'm glad the keyboard helps you solve the issue but I still recommend you looking into how to properly positioned, not only your wrist, but perhaps your desk height as well.
Having used my Belkin ergonomic keyboards for almost two decades, I can definitely say that they have saved me wrist and arm strain. I have to go back to standard keyboards from time to time, and after a couple of hours, I can definitely feel the strain. If you have learned to touch type, then adjusting back and forth to an ergo keyboard does indeed just take a few hours the first time, but not much time going back. All keyboards should be ergo designed! We don't need to keep pandering to mechanical movements designed to push a type bar against a paper page anymore.
Thanks, Eber. Great review. You kinda convinced me to try this out. Also cinematography is great, lighting is great. Colors so vivid and punchy! You guys so grew up. Really amazing.
As a rehabilitation physician, I've found various studies on the topic of sit/stand desks. They definitely change behaviors but it is hard to say if they change outcomes. The most important aspect to remember is changing positions as you do not want to be in any one position for an extended period. Along those lines, I would recommend a standing desk that has an option to automatically rise and lower after X minutes. Regarding this keyboard - Logitech definitely made a lot of ergonomically-conscious decisions. Raising the palm side rather than the back of the keyboard (which actually puts more pressure on the carpal tunnel) was a great idea.
As someone who used the original Natural Keyboard from Microsoft for something like seven years I have to say I thoroughly recommend people to try an ergonomic keyboard. It might not be for you, but you won't know unless you try one. One thing I found actually helped me improve my typing was the split nature of the keyboard. I never got any training in typing so was just shy of "hunt and peck" when I first started using the Natural Keyboard. The split forces you to use the correct hand when typing. For instance there is no way you can get away with using your left hand to type an "h" on a split keyboard. At the same time this can be a major disadvantage if you try to game on one. I'm not saying you can't game on a ergo keyboard, just that it can be less than optimal for gaming. Ergo keyboards seem to fall into two major categories. On one hand you have reasonably priced keyboards such as the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard and on the other hand you have expensive keyboards where there doesn't seem to be a limit to how much they can cost. There are also some very exotic looking ergonomic keyboards where they throw away the old QWERTY standard and create a layout they think is more logical. The more exotic the keyboard is the harder it will be to adapt to. Doesn't mean they are bad, just that it require more of an investment in the form of retraining. Then there are the type of keys used. Most ergo keyboards are using membrane switches, and are definitely not N-Key rollover capable. And that's one more point against using them for gaming. There are however some mechanical version though they tend to cost an arm and a leg. And I have no idea if there are any N-Key rollover capable ergo keyboards out there...
Been using an ergonomics keyboard for years, with the latest being the K860 the past few months. And I love this keyboard. Being able to connect to a pc and a Mac and my iPad, has been awesome. the feel is great and very comfortable. Funny how you mentioned its a large keyboard, look at the ms 4000. I found this KB has a great design and use of space. Best KB I’ve used in long while. Enjoy the channel, great reviews.
Typing on my Microsoft Sculpt. Happy to report that this is everything I'd want in a successor. LED backlighting is unnecessary for me, as touch typing is the goal with these. Having that 10-key built in will be nice, the Sculpt has one as a separate device which has never felt convenient. Being able to switch from three devices right from the keyboard is the killer feature. Definitely waiting for a sale on one of these.
Also typing on the MS Sculpt. My biggest complaints are that the switches under the function keys are terrible, and there's a slider switch to switch between the fn keys and the shortcuts instead of the usual button.
I disagree with the 10key being built in. The sculpt is already large for a TKL, as well as this ergo. I like neutral spacing of my arms for ergonomics. With this, you're forced into angling your arms outward if you are using both mouse and keyboard. I often use the wireless 10 key to the right of my mouse actually. And for the truly adventurous, you could place it at the left side to be used with your left hand instead. If I ever get into more keyboard heavy work I could see myself using this, but not currently. This will probably great for programmers and excel gurus that know their hotkeys.
The Sculpt has done well for me in general. I agree with the switches under the function keys. In the beginning I experienced a few weird issues that these keys would get stuck as well. I eventually stopped using these keys. And it seems the device is a bit sensitive for interference. Especially positioning my OnePlus in the center of the palm rest keystrokes aren't registered. All minor details though...
5:33 The wrist rest actually is detachable, you unscrew it from the back. All we'd need is Logitech to sell the wrist rest separately as a piece that you can swap out. :)
Currently using Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard. I've been using MS ergonomic keyboards for a very long time (20+ years, since my student days). Very comfortable. All the pain in my wrists went away in a few days once I switched over to an ergo keyboard. For touch typists, I would say ergonomic keyboards (those with the split in the middle) all the way. Worth (almost) every penny.
I have used the wired Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 since about 2004 or 2005. As a full-time programmer it was a lifesaver on my wrists. Never had a problem with carpal tunnel. It's kind of clunky looking compared to today's fancy ergonomic keyboards, but it is a total workhorse and only about $30-40 on Amazon. In fact, I am still using the same physical keyboard. That's how sturdy it is.
The ergonomics and quality of this keyboard are tough to beat. You should be aware, however, that they put the 6 key on the left side of the split. I believe that Microsoft made the same mistake with their ergo keyboard.
@@beanut.putter Since the time I posted that reply, I've done plenty of research on the topic. Some European nations actually teach touch typing to strike the 6 key with the left hand. Some keyboard designers put the 6 on the left because they think it looks better. But I can't see because I'm blind, so I don't really care what the keyboard looks like. And I learned to touch-type in Canada so I want to hit that 6 key with my right hand. Besides, it's a long reach to get there with my left. So, yes, I would be a lot happier if they would put the 6 on the right side of the split or put one on both sides of the split. Of course, I could use the number pad, but since I use that for navigating with my screen reader, I would have to switch it back and forth and keep track of which mode it is in because I can't see the indicator LED.
I'm currently using the Microsoft Sculpt ergo keyboard - love it. This is quite nice - I tried the MX Keys keyboard and loved everything about it - so presumably it's the same travel etc in a ergo layout... I will probably try it.
bought one of these off of ebay - this week nearly new for an amazing price. I am a touch typist and have been on it since it arrived today. LOVE IT. watched your video after the purchase but looks like other than the price it was a thumbs up for you -- as it is for me. the led missing is not an issue - as i touch type and rarely look at the key board i paid about 75% 'less than the full price so pretty good investment from my prospective. most importantly my wrists have never felt better.
Ergo boards are definitely the way to go for office workers but models like this with very shallow keys will cause repetitive stress injuries. Longer key travel boards are a better choice because they give your joints a larger area under stress to diffuse the overall friction load. The Logitech K350 and MK550, Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard and Natural Keyboard, and the Perixx Periboard 512 are great affordable options. I used a K350 at work for 8 years before building my own mechanical split board and it’s still working great on my basement workbench today so it’s safe to say that board is a great value. Extremely comfortable too, especially the padded wrist rest. If you have the money to spend and want truly the most healthy option then you really need a split keyboard that lets you adjust the angle of the two halves (horizontally and vertically) to fit your particular hands and wrists. Mistel and Kinesis offer quite a few high quality options for under $175 and you can go up from there to boards like the Matias Ergo Pro, Ergodox, Dactyl, Keyboardio Model 01, and TGM Alice clones to really get the best of the best in the $200-400 range. The newly released Mistel D770 is a fantastic value at $140. I have one with Cherry silent switches being delivered on Friday and I can’t wait. For anyone that wants to learn more, allthingsergo is a great website to read reviews on ergonomic keyboards as well as other ergo products.
Yes! I've been using the MS Surface Pro and before that the MS Sculpt ergonomic. For reasons I can't understand, Logitech abandoned the ergonomic keyboard after that awful "Curve," but I used to like them. I've been typing on ergo keyboards for about 15 years and can't use anything else. It was onset carpal tunnel that forced me off of a flat keyboard and I haven't looked back. Really glad to see this.
Marketing with Alvin I love mine... except my alt key is failing. It’s under warranty but Microsoft’s warranty support on keyboards sucks. I spent an hour on hold. I’ll have to try again one of these days.
@@Rickmakes Yeah. Makes sense. Microsoft has never been known to offer good support. For the price, it is okay though. :) Maybe you just got a lemon. I'm not not a very heavy typist though.
I have one of these at home, for the longest time! And I had the multimedia ergo before it. Also went out and bought a used one for work, because flat keyboards suck to type on now!
These are really great boards, but I'd love to see the MX Mechanical come in a layout like this, or a TKL + Backlight. The MX Keys do last a long time, albeit not as long as the k860. Backlights help when you are working in the early morning or late at night with lights off or dimmed, even as a touch typist. Ditching the numpad or including it as a split option would further increase ergonomics for those that don't need it regularly.
Very nice review, though I wish a little more discussion about how the keys feel and how loud they are in an office environment would've been nice. I've been using Microsoft ergonomic keyboards for years, starting with the Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000. I'm currently using the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard, which is definitely a love/hate relationship (love the wireless connectivity, hate the smaller Function (F) keys on the top row). I would never go back to standard keyboards, since I'm always in front of a computer coding. The new Logitech K860 keyboard looks great! I'm going to pick it up and see how it compares with the Microsoft Sculpt. I'm already using the Logitech MX Master 3 mouse, so this keyboard will pair nicely with it and save a USB port.
My dude, you didn't even mention how the keys feel, the pressure needed to depress them, or what the tactile experience of actually typing is like. That's an unbelievable oversight.
This is a great review. I didn't know about this keyboard but it looks like something I would love to test. I'm a full-time software developer and I spend most of my day using a keyboard and a mouse. A couple of years ago I tried an ergonomic keyboard and I'm not switching back. I love the natural position of my wrists, no more strain or pain on my hands. My favorite is the MS Sculpt Ergonomic. I just love this one. The best in my opinion. I also bought its predecessor MS Natural 4000 because it is cheaper (wired) and I needed a second one. It's pretty good as well. And its successor MS Surface Ergonomic - fancy design but less comfort. I believe a Numpad section is pretty useless but otherwise, this Logitech looks amazing.
Well done video! This is my first ergo keyboard and I'm testing it out. Price to value is a negative though as is the attached wrist rest that can't be replaced.
I use this keyboard for work and I absolutely love it. Prior to this keyboard I was using the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and although that keyboard will forever have a special place in my heart, this keyboard is a HUGE upgrade.
Just got this keyboard today, so naturally that's when I decided to look up a video on it. Good video! And thanks for the point about sit/stand desks. I actually have one from UpLift, it's great with a little button at the bottom right that engages the hydraulics to lift/sink it.
because i game after I work, I use an ergo split keyboard + a trackball mouse for work while a regular keyboard + mouse for gaming. I think it helps a lot as it mixes things up. No longer am I doing the exact same motions all day, every day.
So I used a keyboard similar to this while at work the other day. I have to say, I immediately wanted an ergo keyboard after typing on it for about 20 minutes. I found this keyboard at bestbuy and just went by there to test it out, and it's amazing. I type a lot at work, and the keyboards we have aren't that great. But I'll eventually be upgrading to this keyboard. For someone who is a touch typists, this did wonders for me, and it was super comfortable. I played college tennis, so sometimes my wrists bother me, but I noticed no fatigue after using the ergo keyboard that I was typing on.
I switched to the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 v1.0 about 6 months ago and actually purchased a second backup as the first use I was already typing faster and more comfortable than I was on any other keyboard. I even switched with a coworker for a different one at work. I am not a perfect touch keyboardist by any means but I would like a backlight. I also added a vertical mouse that felt just as comfortable (it is from ANKER) I use at work and home. My only negative is that my hands are large and I would like to see larger key caps for each letter and I understand I am in the minority here. (FYI=Wrists are over 8" around and glove six is 2XL). When I sub at other locations I get stuck ith a normal keyboard and hate them. Keep up the great work and about time a "gamer" looks at comfort over expectations! :)
This looks awesome. And God love them for putting the risers on the front instead of the back. I'd have probably gone with this if I didn't already have a Kinesis Pro. Thanks for the review!
Logitech really needs to combine this keyboard with the MX Keys. So the layout, wrist rest and ergonomics of this keyboard but using the indented keys and backlighting from the MX Keys. They should lose the ambient sensor option as there have been many reported issues with it. Just allow people to set the level of lighting they prefer and the ability to choose a custom timeout for the lighting when the keyboard is not in use. With the added backlighting it would also preferrably be rechargeable via USB-C. If the Ergo K860 and MX Keys had a full size baby then I would pay the higher price. Until that happens I likely won't purchase either of them. C'mon Logitech ... this video is over 3 years old ... GET ON IT! 😜
I love Logitech gear and am glad to see them selling something like this. Thank you Ebert. I will be going to a store and trying this keyboard for my own typing experience. (:
They've sold products like this for years, I'm still waiting for an update to my beloved MK550 Wave. Having bought a G915 TKL, I love it but I would still love an updated Wave.
@@WarriorsPhoto You should still be able to buy the Wave in retail stores. There's a Comfort keyboard which just has opposite sides of the keyboard sloping but that's all it does. I will say that the Mouse that comes with the Wave combo is not that great, it's rear heavy and you feel it when picking it up.
@@DarrenKrusi I am looking for a nice keyboard for when mine goes out. Whenever that'll be. Thank you for the input. BTW, any mechanical keyboards you know of that are Mac specific?
The keyboard should always be in reverse angle not only when you stand, if you are touch typing. That is because your wrists must be higher than your fingers. Normally the wrists are in the air but reverse palm-rest is more comfortable for long time. That's why the MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 has the extra palm-rest to attach under the palm-rest.
Good quality video review if I've ever seen one. Just ordered to give it a try as my daily work keyboard. Agreed on the absence of any backlighting (usually wired keyboards), but I can live with that for daylight work just fine. For low light / gaming I'll probably just switch up. Thanks for the great review!
Regarding sit/stand desk: Don't think too much about it. Just get a normal motorised stand with at least 2 or 3 Memory Functions. Some even remind you by changing positions from time to time. That way you can choose a table.. plate I guess? that fits to your taste and feeling, try different materials and if it gets worn out just change the plate. Most of these stands also have cable management. I'd recommend a Monitor holder with arms and tilt, a holder for your computer under the table so the pc changes position with you, some cable channels and there are table feedthroughs with usb ports, 3.5mm jacks or card readers which are pretty useful too. You can stick fingerprint readers in those for easy access. Also you can sink induction chargers into the plate to charge devices really easy and "natural". Mounting the power outlet strip under the table also makes sense. Last thing don't forget to buy loooong cables for every device. Oh and sorry for my english
Have been thinking of trying these for years, and got a Kensington "Orbit Fusion" ergonomic trackball mouse half a year ago, that convinced me that ergonomic stuff is NOT just gimmick..! I needed a new keyboard, and just found the "iiglo ERGO Kx" at black friday sale for $10 (normal price is $70 here in Norway). Cant wait to try it 😁 Update: Just got it, and it is definitely more comfortable than my old keyboard, but the button layout is a bit different, so it will take some getting used to. The "Y" shaped curve of each side of the keyboard makes the backspace a bit higher up compared to what im used to, so i often hit the Enter key instead. But i just started using it maybe an hour ago, so im sure ill get used to it pretty quickly. Ive never tried a palmrest before, but i like it a LOT 😊
I have hypermobility and my hands hurt a lot. I've tried multiple keyboards, including mechanical ones, but still I couldn't quite make the pain better. I've been looking into this keyboard and I liked your review a lot, thank you!
I'm a touch typist, and I generally have little trouble adapting to different keyboards, even the particularly unusual ones like the Microsoft Mobile keyboard. I've extensive typing experience on a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard. They are very nice, but I still prefer my mechanical keyboards.
I'm already using the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard at work and I love it. Best keyboard I've used until now. I ordered the Logitech Ergo K860 for my home office, it should be coming today, and I'm excited to try it. I decided to try the Logitech because it's designed to work with Mac and PC and I use both at home
Finally !! Logitech, good job. Long ago Logitech have a keyboard called "Wave" keyboard, it's my first "expensive" keyboard, before that I was using $300 NTD basic keyboard. Wave keyboard is durable and comfort, just like legendary optical mouse - MX518, this K860 must be good. My English sucks, hope you can understand my means.
Concerning the desks you are inquiring about. I stumbled upon an older video from Jay about his choice in standing desk - which was the Autonomous SmartDesk. I immediately thought "oh he is a high profile tech youtuber so it'll probably cost a liver and a kidney", but the pricing is insanely reasonable and I am really considering getting a DIY kit myself. That is another great feature from this brand - you can use whatever tabletop you want with their frame.
My Dad has arthritis and as a result his doctor recommended the Microsoft Natural keyboard when it came out back in 1995. He bought one to replace our normal keyboard with and basically said "this is our keyboard now, deal with :)" - I was 13 or so at time. I also happen to be visually impaired so I can't read the label on the key without getting pretty close to it. As a result, I now touch type and never look down at the excepts except sometimes for page up and page down which I use rarely. Further, my Dad, sisters, girlfriend, and a few coworkers use MS ergonomic keyboards at home and work. I love the negative tilt they introduced in the Natural a few years ago, can't type without it now :)
This one looks great! I have the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (old...) that still works like a charm, tried to switch to the much recent Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard but didn't like the separated numbers pad and the short travel keys. I think I'll keep my current one for a while.
I turn the keyboard over and tap it against the desk or a trash can to get small debris from between the keys. Then you can brush it off win all the grooves, including the one between the keys and wrist guard, with a dusting brush or cheap paint brush. Lastly, be sure to clean the wrist guard often (depending on your skin oils) with a wet-wipe (baby wipe or clorox wipe), rubbing to get any spots out and let air dry. Mine cleans up nicely. I love it!
Always looking at new ergonomic offerings. For the present, I am using a Logic Tech K350 keyboard ( 2nd keyboard in daily use). I have found the ergonomic style of this keyboard a more natural and comfortable feature. I was considering the Perixx keyboard as an alternative. Great video!
I use a Microsoft 4000 Ergonomic keyboard & have for around 25 years. I have 4 kids & they all hate it. But I love it. I use it at home & at work. I am a typist so I don't have to look at the keys. It is comfortable & I've never had a wrist problem. I know many people where they do a lot of typing at their job & they have wrist issues. I also use a mouse pad with a wrist pad.
My all-time favorite keyboard was the Logitech Comfort Duo. It was wireless and had the big chunky keys that made all those wonderful noises every time you hit a button. I had that thing for close to a decade before it finally died. I'd rubbed the letters off of the buttons lol, but still used it without issue as I'm a touch typist. I've been using the Sculpt by Microsoft and ended up having to purchase 2 of those as they don't seem to last very long. I almost cried when I saw that Logitech was making this one! I was soooooo excited! I freaking love this one. I love that it still has the number pad on it for when I'm working in accounting. The wrist wrest is comfortable and can be wiped for easy cleanup. The buttons are responsive too. It's just a really, really great keyboard.
I've been using Ergonomical keyboards since the 90's. I'm here since i just ordered the K860 (my previous ergonomical keyboard is giving issues with my left shift key). Still can't understand why you keep telling them that the price is so high.... Buying a desk what can go up and down is fine (what cost honderds if not thousand more) for a good posture. Or people pay extra so there keyboard gives light. To me comfort and making sure I can last decades behind my computer write code (already doing it for couple) but what is expensive is getting in serious discomfort and therefor injured (RSI). Some of my friends did learn how to type DVORAK instead of QWERTY still a skill I want to master one of these days. For the rest I do understand the fact they didn't go for the light features... they want to attract this keyboard to offices (where people type for hours in a day). How cool some people think RGB looks it's not seen in many offices. In that setting people will not take you that serious and think you took a toy to work. I totally agree that if you don't know how to type blind this might be a hard one. I would advice everybody who didn't learn how to type blind (or keyboarding) should take some courses... it's totally worth and pays itself back faster then you might think.
As several others have said, the Microsoft "Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000" is an awesome, much cheaper alternative to this. It's not wireless, but it has some macro keys and media keys and the same basic shape as this Logitech one. I actually game on mine at home and it 100% cured my carpal tunnel/RSI issues in my left wrist.
I have some experience with using differnt keyboard layouts so I can remove some of your concerns. At work I use a Microsoft Sculpt which is a wireless split keyboard like the Logi in the video. I used that with the included Microsoft Sculpt Mouse untill it broke, replaced with a Logitech MX Vertical. At home at the same time I used a Truly Ergonomic keyboard, which has a split layout with the keys lined out straight. Also I have to use my partners keyboard at home to configure her computer, and at work when ever I am on the move I have to work on the laptop. Switching between any of these layouts is no problem, as long as you can type on the key layout (QWERTY) to begin with. A split keyboard will make you quickly break bad habits like pressing B with the right hand or Y with the left hand. Once you do this on a split, you will follow on a 'regular' QWERTY layout. Then you can easily swap (like i do on a daily basis) between these layouts. Keep in mind some of the less 'standard' layouts like the truly ergonomic are a different story. My partner cannot enter her usernames or passwords on the Truly Ergonomic for example, but has no problem doing this on the split Microsoft Sculpt or her own "gaming" QWERTY keyboard. She is also a touch typist. While I dont make any more typing errors on one layout than the other, there is a difference in typing speed. For me that ranking has (over time) gone to where i am quickest on the Truly Ergonomic layout, followed by the Microsoft Sculpt layout simply due to posture, followed by any regular QWERTY (Which i am currently using (Logitech G Pro) for 2 years since the Truly Ergonomic had 3 Chery MX switches fail after it was attacked by liquid beverages... RIP). So swapping layouts should not be a concern for anyone (in the long run). You will simply become more versatile in your ability to type on a 'regular' layout as well as any ergo/split layout you will use. The backlight issue is already mentioned in the comments, should also not be an issue or deal breaker on an ergonomic keyboard. First for 'ergonomics' you shouldn't be working in the dark. Second you should be using it as a touch typist and type without looking you dont really need any backlighting. The F and J keys have those bumps so you can orient your hands/fingers without looking. So the backlighting would only be for 'looks'. Which is hardly worth it on a battery powered keyboard. The price however is a different story, and especially compared to a Microsoft Sculpt, which is still somewhat available despite its age for €90 which includes a wireless keyboard AND mouse (half vertical design), has a better 'ergonomic' design because the numpad is split off seperatly which lets you keep your mose closer to your keyboard (better for your posture). What i missed from this review is how many keys it can roll over, since the Microsoft Sculpt could not handle certain key combinations used in gaming (Shift + W + A + R for example to reload while sprinting sideways) which made me decide to NOT use it at home (and instead purchase a then €300 Truly Ergonomic which since broke..). And any form of 'latency' test to see if it is actually viable in the day and age of 165Hz monitors. So for now, it is more expensive and less ergonomic (due to numpad position) than competitors and it has no documented benefit besides being Unify dongle compatible and being able to swap between 3 systems. If it had no impactful (wireless) latency (i use wireless gaming mice for years, G403 currently) and no issues with key rollover I might actually replace my Logi G Pro with this so i can easily swap between gaming system and laptop without changing any cables or dongles.
I fully agree. Never had issues using a normal keyboard after prolonged use of the Sculpt. Or using a mouse after using the trackball. Or the touchpad of the laptop. I have 10keyless mechanical keyboard with cherry browns. I type MUCH faster on it. But then I also make much more typing errors. The worse key switches on the Sculpt has forced me to type slowly but with next to no typos. In the grand scheme I am not in such a hurry and I prefer to save my wrists and fingers. I still keep my mechanical keyboard and ultra-fast gaming mouse for the gaming sessions I rarely do now.
I’m a touch typist who types basically all day for work. I never look at the keyboard except if I need to use a key that I rarely use (like the F row keys) so for me the backlighting is not an issue at all. I don’t use the number row, I only use the number pad which I also use without looking. No backlight, no problem.
With you covering the tech and peripherals and Dmitry covering the cases mostly, I think Mike should be covering something he likes, as he will speak about them more passionaltely.
I've been using the Logitech K860 for over ten months now. The 6/^ key is on the wrong side of the split. The feet for raising the wrist rest are fragile and are long gone. The key action and shape of the keyboard are excellent. The lack of any keyboard backlighting means that I'm still using the original batteries that came with the keyboard, I have some carple tunnel starting up in my right wrist but this condition has improved since I started using this keyboard. Although I would really like Logitech to put the 6 key on the right-hand side of the split where it belongs, I still recommend this keyboard. The price, for a wireless keyboard of this quality, with dual capability for dongle or Bluetooth capability is an excellent value.
Thanks. This was actually helpful! I use the Logitech K350 Wave Keyboard & M510 mouse, which comes as a set for around $80 US if I recall correctly. But it's time to upgrade my computer, and this keyboard/mouse is nearly 10 years old now. The K350 is comfortable, but as I get older, I think the split design and the raised center will lessen fatigue. Before the Wave, I used an old Microsoft ergonomic, split keyboard for six or eight years, so the layout is familiar. This K860 sounds perfect, as my use case is is a static desk in a well-lit space. The letters and top row numbers are programmed into my brain. But the function keys and the number keyboard requires looking lol.
This video is on point and I'm looking foward to have ergonomic keyboard and mouse! Could you review the Miscrosoft sculpt ergonomic mouse and keyboard combo?
I don't know about the mouse, but I've been using the keyboard since October 2015, it's awesome, the palmrest shows where I put my palms (a little natural oil and dimples) but nothing serious. the keys feel nice and they're not noisy. My only complains are that I'd rather the bigger-squarish Enter key (it is exactly as the one on this video) and there isn't any indicator for the Caps Lock key I really love it.
Same here, 4+ years, my second sculpt keyboard now. The mouse was fine but not the greatest microsoft mouse by any means. I switched to Logitech Ergonomic trackball and it is much better for the wrist.
I wish they dumped the numpad to make space for the mouse. That together with a MX Vertical v2 with the free spin wheel from the master would be lovely!
Re the free spin wheel: for those who are not lucky enough to have it, the Scrollbar anywhere extension has a Grab & drag option (+ friction and speed settings) that work almost as good.
@moo I agree with most of what you're saying, the alice is probably the least ergonomic of the bunch, but having typed for more than a week on a scuplt vs. daily driving an XD75, it's a really low bar. I spent 20 minutes typing on a friend's alice and I'd say it's still about as good as the sculpt, despite not having tenting. The best ergodox's I've felt are actually the ones they sell with the fully scuplted keycaps. Once you put a DSA set on them they take a hit to the comfort. If I had to do a ranking to "ergonomic-ness" I'd probably go datctl, iris, ergodox, then the split keebs, then the xd75, then the alice. That being said, everyone has different wrists, and the further it is from what people know, the harder it will be to adjust. I would say something like a Mistrel staggered split with a good set of wrists rests would alleviate a large amount of typing strain for a lot of people without having to go all out on a Manuform and learn a completely new way of typing.
I don’t jump a lot in the comment section but I really wanted to point out that this was a great video. Well made, well said and much more that I can’t add because of my primitive keyboard currently hurting my wrists.
Good video. You suggested that we skip this model, but what does Hardware Canuks recommend? Also a video request- keyboard and mouse for different professions- creatives, programmers,/ typist gamers, old people etc
I am using MS Sculpt. Such shape really saved my hands from pain. I hate only a couple of things in my kb - awful Fn keys (they are not scissor-switch) and bad location of Home/End/PgUp/PgDown. I would try K860 ergo, but the price...
Nice review. I think I would like this keyboard. My daily driver is the Kinesis Advantage2 which I can't recommend enough, even though it's twice the price of this for a refurbished model. I really like the Microsoft Sculpt, tenkeyless and a similar tenting angle in the middle. They're also about $50 on eBay, but would be concerned about resale/return if you didn't like it. I also agree that while LED back lighting is not necessary, it sure does look nice. Disappointing at the price point of $130, wouldn't be worth complaining about if this were under $100.
I am using the MX Keys and I LOVE it - the little clicks are addicting, it's thin, back lit and works. I wish it had a wrist rest, it would be perfect! I CAN"T believe the ergo MX does not have back lit keys - seriously - what was Logitech thinking? Back lit keys are not a necessity, but we there is the cool factor to consider.
Really good video! How about comparing this keyboard to the Microsoft Ergonomic Surface, the Microsoft Scuplt and other ergonomic ones? That would be awesome for the general public interested in buying a good ergonomic keyboard!
I became a touch typist as a child already as my parents sent me to an official course. Their reasoning was that it'd be a very useful thing for me in the future. They were so right about that. As a professional author and software developer, my best friend is my ergonomic keyboard. Having used the Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000 & 3000 keyboards for a while, I have since a few years settled on the Microsoft Natural 4000. Though first released in 2005, the Natural 4000 is still the best ergonomic keyboard in the world, and also very cheap at $25-50. The Natural 4000 being wired-only is great for me as well. I don't mind a cable running over my desk, as I have one for my wired mouse as well. The Sculpt being wireless-only is the main reason why I have never tried it. In my experience the Natural 4000 is a workhorse that'll keep working and working, and once it wears out, a new one is pretty darn cheap. Tl;dr: I'll never try this Logitech Ergo keyboard because it's wireless-only and freakin' expensive. My Natural 4000 suits me fine.
I haven't tried this one, but over the years I tried a few ergo designs and really love the positioning with the MS Ergo 4000, but have found that despite the worse wrist positioning with traditional keyboards, the overall experience is still better for me with a 'normal' clicky mechanical keyboard than with a membrane ergo. If someone would copy the MS Ergo 4000 layout but make it clicky mechanical I could die a happy typist.
I haven't used a split keyboard in a while, but the Microsoft Natural keyboard has no equal in my opinion. If you are starting to take a shine to split keyboards, you owe it to yourself to try that one out. Addendum: I just bought this one, and it is very nice. I got this because Microsoft's wireless ergonomic keyboards tend to have flaky connections.
Hey, couple months later I’m looking to buy first split keyboard for at home productivity which do u recommend? I have terrible fingers that lock up a lot and my wrists would hurt when I would play claw on a controller. Thanks for sharing 🙏🏽
@@xxzeta I haven't tried very many of the new ergonomic keyboards, but I'm VERY happy with the ergonomics of this particular keyboard. The main downside is that the included AAA batteries lasted longer than the paint on the keycaps.
The obsession with backlighting boggles my mind, if you care at all about ergonomics you'll be using it in an environment that is adequately lit, making the lack of backlighting a non issue.
I'm currently rocking a Kinesis Freestyle Edge gaming keyboard, and although it is WAAAY better than a standard keyboard, I still feel there is much to be desired. Keyboard manufactures need to think about how they can better utilize our most versatile digits: our thumbs. My all time favorite input devices are actually the Razer Orbweaver and now the Razer Tartarus Pro with the optical switches I just purchased. Ergonomically, they are fantastic, and having 2 thumb keys and an 4-8 way directional pad offers MANY possible opportunities for all sorts of complex use case scenarios. I use it mostly for gaming and editing, but you can create profiles for just about anything. Personally, I'd love to just have two of these things, one for each hand, and then just ditch a regular keyboard altogether. Come on Logitech! Bring back the a modern variant of the G13, and compete with Razer!! But go one further, and show some left-handed folks some love and then build in a simple USB Type-C link between the right and left handed devices so that we may have a badass ergonomic split keyboard experience like no other!!!! I mean, with Logitech's software and G-Shift (not unlike Razers implementation), just imagine all the possibilities!!
I have been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 since 2007 and the same keyboard from then still works like a champ to this day. Microsoft makes good peripherals.
Northgate Evolution. This keyboard has been my main keyboard since around 2002. Its split design has been a God send! Soon after using it I gave up on conventional keyboards as the strain was just too uncomfortable. Yes, I have had to repair it a few times but for this old school nerd it has been more than worth it.
Have been using the Logitech Ergonomic combo set in the late 1990's then switched to Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 at home...and still using it today. At work using a Kinesis Freestyle2 VIP3. Love them all, would not go back to normal keyboard...and oh...I'm thinking of upgrading my existing keyboard at home
I swear by ergo keyboards. I've used a Microsoft Natural (the old white one), a Natural 4000 (the black and silver one, still just $40-50 online), and now an Ergodox-EZ Glow. RGB, mechanical, 76-key, with socketed switches so you can replace them with whatever Kailh BOX you prefer. I've got Thick Golds (clicky, almost "poppy") but I'm debating BOX Navy since I keep hitting keys by accident. Getting used to an Ergo of any form definitely makes switching back to a traditional layout less than ideal, though.
Chris Frizzell I have the non Glow with Kailh Gold, blank PBT keycaps and type on the Colemak ModDH layout and it’s a dream. I can switch keyboards fine but I always find myself disappointed when not on my ergodox. I HATE staggered rows now.
About the LED - that's also my rant when I bought a Logitech K380 keyboard as a temporary 'reliever' away from mechanical keyboard, but after only 2 days, I'd much rather have no led for it. You'll just get that good feel of typing with it without looking as much as possible :)
I've been a long time ergonomic keyboard user and I learned something important from my peers: If you've ever had any kind of touch typing class and mostly follow those rules, then ergonomic keyboards are worth giving a try. If you taught yourself to type over time, then the layout is probably not going to work well for you. When I first staring using an ergonomic keyboard, I had to train myself not to bend my wrists as I would for a regular keyboard; I was bending my wrists as I would for a regular keyboard and then I was bending my fingers extra to reach the keys, meaning that I was putting extra stress onto my hands instead of less. Side note: if you want a split design but you also want mechanical, and/or you want a number pad, then check out the keyboard from x-bows.
a number of my colleagues use a split keyboard from kinesis. its a bit different, but you can configure it similarly with risers in the middle. i think its a few hundred usd
@@insertnamehere6559 I've only seen rly expensive options and didn't know this was a thing cus I don't rly like ergo keyboards but this is rly nice for the price
@@ok-rh4vp how so, i am a tech support agent for a major company we have been very busy over the last 6 months since covid, so its three chats at once, all day long 8 hours a day. have to say having this comfortable keyboard really has helped me out a ton. i no longer have any wrist pain. i also did get the Logitech spin ball mouse which for sure helps. if anyone is on the borderline of buying this i would say it definitely is worth it
I love my Kinesis Freestyle Edge and Kinesis Freestyle Blue. I use the Freestyle Blue at work where not having the back light is not really an issue, but I love the Freestyle Edge at home where i can use it in a dark room without any issues. I use both keyboards at shoulder width apart, which is what I really love about these keyboards. It really helped with dealing with shoulder and elbow pain. I have been using the Freestyle Blue for about 4 years now and I still love it. I have found I have a little issue with switch from my laptop keyboard to the Freestyles, but they are similar enough it is not much of an issue.
Autonomous Sit Stand desk is incredibly good quality. Even the tabletop that comes with it is great and the packaging is fantastic to avoid damage in transit. I got the business model for the extended warranty and the dual motors are quick and very quiet compared to other sit stand desks. I'd highly recommend it to anyone looking for a quality sit stand desk for an affordable price. P.S. Get a friend to help with setup otherwise you'll probably throw your back out like I did. My own fault though haha.
I use the MX ergo, I find the tilt to be worth the cost compared to the Logitech M570. The ball is a little more firmly secured in the socket which actually I don't prefer because it makes it a little harder to clean, but overall I still prefer the mx ergo. The resolution is quite tight, and there's a precision mode button. It works nicely with both bluetooth and the "unifying receiver" . I have won games of apex legends and starcraft 2 using it, so you can still game with it. I don't have an ergo keyboard but I do have an ergo mouse, and part of that is all the motion that goes into a mouse. I was developing carpal tunnel and I have done some stretches to help mitigate and manage it and that has been helpful but I do see a trackball mouse such as the MX ergo as a good way to constructively respond to it. Personally I also enjoy carrying the MX Ergo with me to use with my laptop, you will get some funny looks but it is really nice having a full desk experience without requiring a full desk worth of space (the mouse doesn't have to move). For me my strategy of reducing travel distance has been helpful in managing my symptoms, obviously your mileage may vary. I do find that the angle of the mx ergo is a substantial improvement to the m570, which I still think is a good choice to affordably cut back on repetitive stress. If you can afford it get the mx ergo, if you can't then try the m570. Either one will be a marked improvement over a traditional mouse in my experience and opinion.
I used to have a Microsoft ergo keyboard years ago, like 10 or so years ago. It was amazing to type fast on and I used it for gaming. This is back before everything had to have the word "gaming" in front of it. When I switched back to a standard layout I couldn't type for a month.
I must be old. When I was in school we had to take a mandatory "keyboarding" class. Looking back, I'm glad I did. I can't imagine what it's like to sit down in front of a keyboard and not know where the keys are!
I must be older. When I was in high school we took a "typing" class using mechanical typewriters. AAA BBB CCC..... I had never heard of the term "keyboarding" at that time. LOL!!
I'm a youngster who sadly never properly learned to type so I just use basically 4 of my fingers flying all over the place. My typing speed isn't bad (85WPM) but I'm scared of repetitive strain injuries. I figured it'd be pretty hard to relearn how to type but not much harder if I just learned an entirely new keyboard layout so I decided to learn Dvorak.
Anyway, I'm disappointed it isn't a mandatory course (or a course at all in my case) anymore. I could've saved myself a lot of time and effort that way.
I had this annoying colleague at work that loved coming to my desk and trying stuff at my PC. I bought 10keyless cherry brown mechanical switches keyboard, with no markings on the keys! This keyboard alone stopped him annoying me!
In another office we had this april fool where they changed the keys on the keyboards. The caps were easy to remove and shuffle. After 3 months one colleague noticed that I still haven't switched back my keys -- I haven't noticed it at all
@@SirT0M1 It's all the same. Kind of like how "gym class" has turned into "Physical Education. I had to sit at the keyboard with a piece of paper over my fingers to learn how to type. AAA BBB CCC. haha
Battery life is INSANE! Now you know why there's no back lighting. This has been my work keyboard for the past year and it has helped my hands out even though I've had a busy year. Totally recommended. $130 is nothing compared to going through carpal tunnel release surgery. Take care of yourself.
Honestly logitech has some of the best mice and keyboards that excell at battery life!
but it is membrane for that price
@@zmangormz Its scissor switch - in my opinion the best switch there is. Mechanical is just a hype.
I've been using ergonomic keyboard from almost the start, from 1995 with the first Microsoft natural keyboard. I'm using Ms natural 4000 now. It's really strange to see that flat, box keyboards are dominating. It's really good that Logitech is joining the ergonomic competition. Thank you for the review.
I don't think they realize the reason they went out of use, because people were damaging their wrists.
I had the MS Natural 4000 & loved it. It's junk now (age). Apparently ergonomic keyboards don't sell well in India because I could find so few choices and they're all so overpriced. Plus, none of the seem to be backlit, really important for me since I often work in a dark-ish room with a little bit of indirect light falling on my desk.
MS never produced ergonomic keyboards, you better stop lying to yourself.
@@DeepfriedBaby what went out of style? Mechanical keyboards?
Yes! I've been wanting to see more split keyboards in the market. :) I have bad RSI, I can't use a normal keyboard for more than a few minutes without pain. I've been using the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard for years. If Logitech accepts any feedback, I'd love to see a tenkeyless version. The extra distance the keypad adds to my right arms travel when switching between keyboard and mouse adds to my RSI pain. I'd also love to see a mechanical version. My Sculpt has low profile keys, and the I start noticing the travel distance being too short after long coding or gaming sessions. My ultimate dream keyboard is a version of the Kinesis Advantage 2 that lets your wrist rest at an angle instead of straight. Anyway, I hope this spurs more companies to try selling ergonomic keyboards. It's a market that needs a lot more competition.
and a trackball in the middle with switch to change to scroll mode and of course with left right buttons.
I go to PAX every year and talk to peripheral vendors and push ergo keyboards. It's 2019.
I need to have the keypad as an accountant so I was forced to solve that issue by learning to mouse with my left hand. The reason for this is because I had developed nervous tension in my right arm and it got so bad my right arm and hand would go completely numb. It took me maybe 3 weeks to become proficient. So my “right” click is now a left click as I made my mouse a true left handed mouse. My nervous tension has gone away with physio and has not come back since I started mousing with my left hand and using an ergonomic keyboard. I use the cheap wired Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 at work and bought myself the Logitech Ergo K860 for working at home. I like them both but I think my preference is the feel of the Logitech one.
@@michaelknight2897 Thank you!
I agree. This keyboard is way too big. Most people don't need a keypad.
Touch typing is something you can learn from a library book. I found a typewriter-based book at my library and went through it for a few weeks. My typing immediately improved, and it really clicked once I had to do a lot of writing for online classes.
It IS about muscle memory, and some key movements such as using your left index finger for "B" are initially awkward, yet it's totally worth it.
Especially if you know keyboard shortcuts for your operating system, your productivity improves DRAMATICALLY. It's not just that you don't need to look at your fingers, it's that you hardly need to use your mouse! You probably have no idea, but your keyboard can pretty much do it all, and it's a fun feeling.
If I were you, I'd make touch typing a goal and get started on it today. Especially if enjoy life hacks or you fancy yourself a computer person, a gamer, or you work in an office. OMG, office people should HAVE TO learn touch typing, if just to make their life way EASIER.
Anyway, best of luck.
Lately im on a self development streak and am learning typing the "proper" way this time after all these years typing with 2 fingers each hand. Thats why I bought the Microsoft sculpt wireless for 30 bucks used!
I am probably one of the youngest amongst the comment section. I'm 15 turning 16 and the thing is, my wrist pain and hands were aching nonstop and due to the lockdown, it worsened to the point that I couldn't even eat properly. I bought the ergo keyboard a few days ago and it just came in two days ago and I love it. I guess I'm more of a touch typist, but I still do make mistakes because I don't really have the whole layout memorized. This is also my first ergo keyboard and I can tell you that I work at night with the lights ON so I do not find it a dealbreaker if it does not have backlighting. I found this to be expensive, but in the long term, this is a much better solution. Now I'm waiting for my ergonomic mouse. BTW the pain has lessened like crazy for me so this keyboard is a lifesaver.
Thanks Tanisha :)
im 3
For anyone who might read this: if you want to learn to touch type, look into mnemonics! It's possible - and easy - to memorize the qwerty layout in 7h (breaks included) + some extra hours to gain speed. I couldn't believe that would work, when my parents signed me up for a 1-day course of that type. My siblings later visited the same course and thats how we learned touch typing.
One thing though: it's a soft programming of muscle memory, so if you use your past typing scheme in the first few days after the course, you completely ruin it. So be careful and patient or straight out put the course in your holidays.
Yeah, you can get used to anything. I don't have this, but I do have a split keyboard. At first it was weird, now it is harder going back to regular keyboards than using the split one.
Considering your age, I highly feel that the reasoning for your wrist ache is due to you not properly positioning your wrist when you use a keyboard. This ergo keyboard would help because the wrist rest and shape forces your hand to be positioned correctly. I'm glad the keyboard helps you solve the issue but I still recommend you looking into how to properly positioned, not only your wrist, but perhaps your desk height as well.
Having used my Belkin ergonomic keyboards for almost two decades, I can definitely say that they have saved me wrist and arm strain. I have to go back to standard keyboards from time to time, and after a couple of hours, I can definitely feel the strain. If you have learned to touch type, then adjusting back and forth to an ergo keyboard does indeed just take a few hours the first time, but not much time going back.
All keyboards should be ergo designed! We don't need to keep pandering to mechanical movements designed to push a type bar against a paper page anymore.
Thanks, Eber. Great review.
You kinda convinced me to try this out.
Also cinematography is great, lighting is great. Colors so vivid and punchy!
You guys so grew up. Really amazing.
As a rehabilitation physician, I've found various studies on the topic of sit/stand desks. They definitely change behaviors but it is hard to say if they change outcomes. The most important aspect to remember is changing positions as you do not want to be in any one position for an extended period. Along those lines, I would recommend a standing desk that has an option to automatically rise and lower after X minutes.
Regarding this keyboard - Logitech definitely made a lot of ergonomically-conscious decisions. Raising the palm side rather than the back of the keyboard (which actually puts more pressure on the carpal tunnel) was a great idea.
As someone who used the original Natural Keyboard from Microsoft for something like seven years I have to say I thoroughly recommend people to try an ergonomic keyboard. It might not be for you, but you won't know unless you try one.
One thing I found actually helped me improve my typing was the split nature of the keyboard. I never got any training in typing so was just shy of "hunt and peck" when I first started using the Natural Keyboard. The split forces you to use the correct hand when typing. For instance there is no way you can get away with using your left hand to type an "h" on a split keyboard. At the same time this can be a major disadvantage if you try to game on one. I'm not saying you can't game on a ergo keyboard, just that it can be less than optimal for gaming.
Ergo keyboards seem to fall into two major categories. On one hand you have reasonably priced keyboards such as the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard and on the other hand you have expensive keyboards where there doesn't seem to be a limit to how much they can cost.
There are also some very exotic looking ergonomic keyboards where they throw away the old QWERTY standard and create a layout they think is more logical. The more exotic the keyboard is the harder it will be to adapt to. Doesn't mean they are bad, just that it require more of an investment in the form of retraining.
Then there are the type of keys used. Most ergo keyboards are using membrane switches, and are definitely not N-Key rollover capable. And that's one more point against using them for gaming. There are however some mechanical version though they tend to cost an arm and a leg. And I have no idea if there are any N-Key rollover capable ergo keyboards out there...
Been using an ergonomics keyboard for years, with the latest being the K860 the past few months. And I love this keyboard. Being able to connect to a pc and a Mac and my iPad, has been awesome. the feel is great and very comfortable. Funny how you mentioned its a large keyboard, look at the ms 4000. I found this KB has a great design and use of space. Best KB I’ve used in long while.
Enjoy the channel, great reviews.
Typing on my Microsoft Sculpt. Happy to report that this is everything I'd want in a successor. LED backlighting is unnecessary for me, as touch typing is the goal with these. Having that 10-key built in will be nice, the Sculpt has one as a separate device which has never felt convenient. Being able to switch from three devices right from the keyboard is the killer feature. Definitely waiting for a sale on one of these.
Also typing on the MS Sculpt. My biggest complaints are that the switches under the function keys are terrible, and there's a slider switch to switch between the fn keys and the shortcuts instead of the usual button.
I disagree with the 10key being built in. The sculpt is already large for a TKL, as well as this ergo. I like neutral spacing of my arms for ergonomics. With this, you're forced into angling your arms outward if you are using both mouse and keyboard. I often use the wireless 10 key to the right of my mouse actually. And for the truly adventurous, you could place it at the left side to be used with your left hand instead.
If I ever get into more keyboard heavy work I could see myself using this, but not currently. This will probably great for programmers and excel gurus that know their hotkeys.
The numpad stays nice in the space between the two parts, in front of the keyboard. I rarely use it anyway, only for entering large numbers
The Sculpt has done well for me in general. I agree with the switches under the function keys. In the beginning I experienced a few weird issues that these keys would get stuck as well. I eventually stopped using these keys. And it seems the device is a bit sensitive for interference. Especially positioning my OnePlus in the center of the palm rest keystrokes aren't registered. All minor details though...
I thinks it's good for office and everyday use but not for gaming. I have one in my office and there are hicups now and then due to the wireless.
5:33 The wrist rest actually is detachable, you unscrew it from the back. All we'd need is Logitech to sell the wrist rest separately as a piece that you can swap out. :)
Currently using Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard.
I've been using MS ergonomic keyboards for a very long time (20+ years, since my student days).
Very comfortable. All the pain in my wrists went away in a few days once I switched over to an ergo keyboard.
For touch typists, I would say ergonomic keyboards (those with the split in the middle) all the way. Worth (almost) every penny.
Next: Gaming ergo keyboard!
Tell him to review the $2000 TGR Alice
@@spidermain $2000 for keyboard... Sorry! I like membrane 😏
G edition
@@fardinzaman6631 Alice clones cost 300 so it's probably worth it for him.
@@spidermain yup!
If you took any type of typing course the ergonomic keyboards will actually let you type faster and type longer.
I love PC gaming but I've never bothered with mechanical keyboards. Currently on a MS Sculpt, and I love it! Had an MS Ergonomic 4000 before that.
Legit same. I had my 4000 for years. I even busted the space bar but still kept it for years and last year bought the Sculpt which was on sale.
There are also ergonomic split mechanical keyboards. You can adjust the height at each corner and don't have the angle fixed.
@@Adrian-jn9ov They cost so much money though.
I have used the wired Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 since about 2004 or 2005. As a full-time programmer it was a lifesaver on my wrists. Never had a problem with carpal tunnel. It's kind of clunky looking compared to today's fancy ergonomic keyboards, but it is a total workhorse and only about $30-40 on Amazon. In fact, I am still using the same physical keyboard. That's how sturdy it is.
My first Ergo keyboard from the MS 4000 as well
FUCK YES I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR AN ERGONOMIC KEYBOARD LIKE THE SCULPT FOR YEARS! The palm rest lift is something i can't live without.
The ergonomics and quality of this keyboard are tough to beat.
You should be aware, however, that they put the 6 key on the left side of the split. I believe that Microsoft made the same mistake with their ergo keyboard.
@@surferdude4487 That is sooo fricking annoying.
@@beanut.putter Since the time I posted that reply, I've done plenty of research on the topic. Some European nations actually teach touch typing to strike the 6 key with the left hand. Some keyboard designers put the 6 on the left because they think it looks better. But I can't see because I'm blind, so I don't really care what the keyboard looks like. And I learned to touch-type in Canada so I want to hit that 6 key with my right hand. Besides, it's a long reach to get there with my left. So, yes, I would be a lot happier if they would put the 6 on the right side of the split or put one on both sides of the split. Of course, I could use the number pad, but since I use that for navigating with my screen reader, I would have to switch it back and forth and keep track of which mode it is in because I can't see the indicator LED.
Chyrosran22: "eew take that disgusting away from me"
He would be cussing every 3 words at this
*disgusting*
UNACCEPTABLEEEEEeeeeeEe
@@yomurita What do you mean he would be cussing? That British gentleman paints with words?! 😁
@@czdot Very tuberculosis, as he'd say
I'm currently using the Microsoft Sculpt ergo keyboard - love it. This is quite nice - I tried the MX Keys keyboard and loved everything about it - so presumably it's the same travel etc in a ergo layout... I will probably try it.
bought one of these off of ebay - this week nearly new for an amazing price. I am a touch typist and have been on it since it arrived today. LOVE IT. watched your video after the purchase but looks like other than the price it was a thumbs up for you -- as it is for me. the led missing is not an issue - as i touch type and rarely look at the key board i paid about 75% 'less than the full price so pretty good investment from my prospective. most importantly my wrists have never felt better.
Ergo boards are definitely the way to go for office workers but models like this with very shallow keys will cause repetitive stress injuries. Longer key travel boards are a better choice because they give your joints a larger area under stress to diffuse the overall friction load. The Logitech K350 and MK550, Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard and Natural Keyboard, and the Perixx Periboard 512 are great affordable options. I used a K350 at work for 8 years before building my own mechanical split board and it’s still working great on my basement workbench today so it’s safe to say that board is a great value. Extremely comfortable too, especially the padded wrist rest.
If you have the money to spend and want truly the most healthy option then you really need a split keyboard that lets you adjust the angle of the two halves (horizontally and vertically) to fit your particular hands and wrists. Mistel and Kinesis offer quite a few high quality options for under $175 and you can go up from there to boards like the Matias Ergo Pro, Ergodox, Dactyl, Keyboardio Model 01, and TGM Alice clones to really get the best of the best in the $200-400 range. The newly released Mistel D770 is a fantastic value at $140. I have one with Cherry silent switches being delivered on Friday and I can’t wait.
For anyone that wants to learn more, allthingsergo is a great website to read reviews on ergonomic keyboards as well as other ergo products.
Yes! I've been using the MS Surface Pro and before that the MS Sculpt ergonomic. For reasons I can't understand, Logitech abandoned the ergonomic keyboard after that awful "Curve," but I used to like them. I've been typing on ergo keyboards for about 15 years and can't use anything else. It was onset carpal tunnel that forced me off of a flat keyboard and I haven't looked back.
Really glad to see this.
I'd recommend the Microsoft Ergo 4000 keyboard. $40.. 5 macro keys. :) Been using it for 3 years now and I work 12-14 hours a day. :D
Marketing with Alvin I love mine... except my alt key is failing. It’s under warranty but Microsoft’s warranty support on keyboards sucks. I spent an hour on hold. I’ll have to try again one of these days.
@@Rickmakes Yeah. Makes sense. Microsoft has never been known to offer good support. For the price, it is okay though. :) Maybe you just got a lemon. I'm not not a very heavy typist though.
Mine has issues on Windows 10 so I can't use it there but it works fine on Linux so go figure.
@@Montisaquadeis Weird. I use Windows 10 with no issues whatsoever. I did have to download Microsoft Mouse and Keyboard Center.
I have one of these at home, for the longest time! And I had the multimedia ergo before it. Also went out and bought a used one for work, because flat keyboards suck to type on now!
These are really great boards, but I'd love to see the MX Mechanical come in a layout like this, or a TKL + Backlight. The MX Keys do last a long time, albeit not as long as the k860. Backlights help when you are working in the early morning or late at night with lights off or dimmed, even as a touch typist. Ditching the numpad or including it as a split option would further increase ergonomics for those that don't need it regularly.
I’ve been eyeing ergo keyboards this week, so I’m glad you uploaded this. Think I’m going to get it.
Very nice review, though I wish a little more discussion about how the keys feel and how loud they are in an office environment would've been nice. I've been using Microsoft ergonomic keyboards for years, starting with the Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000. I'm currently using the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard, which is definitely a love/hate relationship (love the wireless connectivity, hate the smaller Function (F) keys on the top row). I would never go back to standard keyboards, since I'm always in front of a computer coding.
The new Logitech K860 keyboard looks great! I'm going to pick it up and see how it compares with the Microsoft Sculpt. I'm already using the Logitech MX Master 3 mouse, so this keyboard will pair nicely with it and save a USB port.
My dude, you didn't even mention how the keys feel, the pressure needed to depress them, or what the tactile experience of actually typing is like. That's an unbelievable oversight.
This is a great review. I didn't know about this keyboard but it looks like something I would love to test.
I'm a full-time software developer and I spend most of my day using a keyboard and a mouse. A couple of years ago I tried an ergonomic keyboard and I'm not switching back. I love the natural position of my wrists, no more strain or pain on my hands. My favorite is the MS Sculpt Ergonomic. I just love this one. The best in my opinion. I also bought its predecessor MS Natural 4000 because it is cheaper (wired) and I needed a second one. It's pretty good as well. And its successor MS Surface Ergonomic - fancy design but less comfort. I believe a Numpad section is pretty useless but otherwise, this Logitech looks amazing.
Well done video! This is my first ergo keyboard and I'm testing it out. Price to value is a negative though as is the attached wrist rest that can't be replaced.
I use this keyboard for work and I absolutely love it. Prior to this keyboard I was using the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and although that keyboard will forever have a special place in my heart, this keyboard is a HUGE upgrade.
Just got this keyboard today, so naturally that's when I decided to look up a video on it. Good video! And thanks for the point about sit/stand desks. I actually have one from UpLift, it's great with a little button at the bottom right that engages the hydraulics to lift/sink it.
Should also add, I came from a Microsoft wireless ergo (whatever it's called) before that, and a Microsoft wired ergo before THAT.
because i game after I work, I use an ergo split keyboard + a trackball mouse for work while a regular keyboard + mouse for gaming. I think it helps a lot as it mixes things up. No longer am I doing the exact same motions all day, every day.
So I used a keyboard similar to this while at work the other day. I have to say, I immediately wanted an ergo keyboard after typing on it for about 20 minutes. I found this keyboard at bestbuy and just went by there to test it out, and it's amazing. I type a lot at work, and the keyboards we have aren't that great. But I'll eventually be upgrading to this keyboard. For someone who is a touch typists, this did wonders for me, and it was super comfortable. I played college tennis, so sometimes my wrists bother me, but I noticed no fatigue after using the ergo keyboard that I was typing on.
I switched to the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 v1.0 about 6 months ago and actually purchased a second backup as the first use I was already typing faster and more comfortable than I was on any other keyboard. I even switched with a coworker for a different one at work. I am not a perfect touch keyboardist by any means but I would like a backlight. I also added a vertical mouse that felt just as comfortable (it is from ANKER) I use at work and home. My only negative is that my hands are large and I would like to see larger key caps for each letter and I understand I am in the minority here. (FYI=Wrists are over 8" around and glove six is 2XL).
When I sub at other locations I get stuck ith a normal keyboard and hate them.
Keep up the great work and about time a "gamer" looks at comfort over expectations! :)
This looks awesome. And God love them for putting the risers on the front instead of the back. I'd have probably gone with this if I didn't already have a Kinesis Pro. Thanks for the review!
Logitech really needs to combine this keyboard with the MX Keys. So the layout, wrist rest and ergonomics of this keyboard but using the indented keys and backlighting from the MX Keys. They should lose the ambient sensor option as there have been many reported issues with it. Just allow people to set the level of lighting they prefer and the ability to choose a custom timeout for the lighting when the keyboard is not in use. With the added backlighting it would also preferrably be rechargeable via USB-C. If the Ergo K860 and MX Keys had a full size baby then I would pay the higher price. Until that happens I likely won't purchase either of them. C'mon Logitech ... this video is over 3 years old ... GET ON IT! 😜
I love Logitech gear and am glad to see them selling something like this. Thank you Ebert. I will be going to a store and trying this keyboard for my own typing experience. (:
They've sold products like this for years, I'm still waiting for an update to my beloved MK550 Wave. Having bought a G915 TKL, I love it but I would still love an updated Wave.
@@DarrenKrusi Good to know. I can look at the used market as well, thank you.
@@WarriorsPhoto You should still be able to buy the Wave in retail stores. There's a Comfort keyboard which just has opposite sides of the keyboard sloping but that's all it does. I will say that the Mouse that comes with the Wave combo is not that great, it's rear heavy and you feel it when picking it up.
@@DarrenKrusi I am looking for a nice keyboard for when mine goes out. Whenever that'll be. Thank you for the input.
BTW, any mechanical keyboards you know of that are Mac specific?
The keyboard should always be in reverse angle not only when you stand, if you are touch typing. That is because your wrists must be higher than your fingers. Normally the wrists are in the air but reverse palm-rest is more comfortable for long time. That's why the MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000
has the extra palm-rest to attach under the palm-rest.
Good quality video review if I've ever seen one. Just ordered to give it a try as my daily work keyboard. Agreed on the absence of any backlighting (usually wired keyboards), but I can live with that for daylight work just fine. For low light / gaming I'll probably just switch up. Thanks for the great review!
Regarding sit/stand desk:
Don't think too much about it. Just get a normal motorised stand with at least 2 or 3 Memory Functions. Some even remind you by changing positions from time to time. That way you can choose a table.. plate I guess? that fits to your taste and feeling, try different materials and if it gets worn out just change the plate. Most of these stands also have cable management. I'd recommend a Monitor holder with arms and tilt, a holder for your computer under the table so the pc changes position with you, some cable channels and there are table feedthroughs with usb ports, 3.5mm jacks or card readers which are pretty useful too. You can stick fingerprint readers in those for easy access. Also you can sink induction chargers into the plate to charge devices really easy and "natural". Mounting the power outlet strip under the table also makes sense. Last thing don't forget to buy loooong cables for every device.
Oh and sorry for my english
Have been thinking of trying these for years, and got a Kensington "Orbit Fusion" ergonomic trackball mouse half a year ago, that convinced me that ergonomic stuff is NOT just gimmick..! I needed a new keyboard, and just found the "iiglo ERGO Kx" at black friday sale for $10 (normal price is $70 here in Norway). Cant wait to try it 😁
Update: Just got it, and it is definitely more comfortable than my old keyboard, but the button layout is a bit different, so it will take some getting used to. The "Y" shaped curve of each side of the keyboard makes the backspace a bit higher up compared to what im used to, so i often hit the Enter key instead. But i just started using it maybe an hour ago, so im sure ill get used to it pretty quickly. Ive never tried a palmrest before, but i like it a LOT 😊
I have hypermobility and my hands hurt a lot. I've tried multiple keyboards, including mechanical ones, but still I couldn't quite make the pain better. I've been looking into this keyboard and I liked your review a lot, thank you!
I'm a touch typist, and I generally have little trouble adapting to different keyboards, even the particularly unusual ones like the Microsoft Mobile keyboard. I've extensive typing experience on a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard. They are very nice, but I still prefer my mechanical keyboards.
I'm already using the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard at work and I love it. Best keyboard I've used until now. I ordered the Logitech Ergo K860 for my home office, it should be coming today, and I'm excited to try it. I decided to try the Logitech because it's designed to work with Mac and PC and I use both at home
It was live at first sight for me for this ergo keyboard and vertical mouse from Logitech. I have hand pain-issues hence I use these
Finally !! Logitech, good job.
Long ago Logitech have a keyboard called "Wave" keyboard, it's my first "expensive" keyboard, before that I was using $300 NTD basic keyboard.
Wave keyboard is durable and comfort, just like legendary optical mouse - MX518, this K860 must be good.
My English sucks, hope you can understand my means.
Concerning the desks you are inquiring about. I stumbled upon an older video from Jay about his choice in standing desk - which was the Autonomous SmartDesk. I immediately thought "oh he is a high profile tech youtuber so it'll probably cost a liver and a kidney", but the pricing is insanely reasonable and I am really considering getting a DIY kit myself. That is another great feature from this brand - you can use whatever tabletop you want with their frame.
My Dad has arthritis and as a result his doctor recommended the Microsoft Natural keyboard when it came out back in 1995. He bought one to replace our normal keyboard with and basically said "this is our keyboard now, deal with :)" - I was 13 or so at time. I also happen to be visually impaired so I can't read the label on the key without getting pretty close to it.
As a result, I now touch type and never look down at the excepts except sometimes for page up and page down which I use rarely.
Further, my Dad, sisters, girlfriend, and a few coworkers use MS ergonomic keyboards at home and work.
I love the negative tilt they introduced in the Natural a few years ago, can't type without it now :)
This one looks great!
I have the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (old...) that still works like a charm, tried to switch to the much recent Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard but didn't like the separated numbers pad and the short travel keys. I think I'll keep my current one for a while.
I turn the keyboard over and tap it against the desk or a trash can to get small debris from between the keys. Then you can brush it off win all the grooves, including the one between the keys and wrist guard, with a dusting brush or cheap paint brush. Lastly, be sure to clean the wrist guard often (depending on your skin oils) with a wet-wipe (baby wipe or clorox wipe), rubbing to get any spots out and let air dry. Mine cleans up nicely. I love it!
Always looking at new ergonomic offerings. For the present, I am using a Logic Tech K350 keyboard ( 2nd keyboard in daily use). I have found the ergonomic style of this keyboard a more natural and comfortable feature. I was considering the Perixx keyboard as an alternative. Great video!
If it would be in TKL version and will have backlight I would be happy to replace my Microsoft Sculpt keyboard :/
I use a Microsoft 4000 Ergonomic keyboard & have for around 25 years. I have 4 kids & they all hate it. But I love it. I use it at home & at work. I am a typist so I don't have to look at the keys. It is comfortable & I've never had a wrist problem. I know many people where they do a lot of typing at their job & they have wrist issues. I also use a mouse pad with a wrist pad.
My all-time favorite keyboard was the Logitech Comfort Duo. It was wireless and had the big chunky keys that made all those wonderful noises every time you hit a button. I had that thing for close to a decade before it finally died. I'd rubbed the letters off of the buttons lol, but still used it without issue as I'm a touch typist. I've been using the Sculpt by Microsoft and ended up having to purchase 2 of those as they don't seem to last very long. I almost cried when I saw that Logitech was making this one! I was soooooo excited! I freaking love this one. I love that it still has the number pad on it for when I'm working in accounting. The wrist wrest is comfortable and can be wiped for easy cleanup. The buttons are responsive too. It's just a really, really great keyboard.
I've been using Ergonomical keyboards since the 90's. I'm here since i just ordered the K860 (my previous ergonomical keyboard is giving issues with my left shift key). Still can't understand why you keep telling them that the price is so high.... Buying a desk what can go up and down is fine (what cost honderds if not thousand more) for a good posture. Or people pay extra so there keyboard gives light. To me comfort and making sure I can last decades behind my computer write code (already doing it for couple) but what is expensive is getting in serious discomfort and therefor injured (RSI). Some of my friends did learn how to type DVORAK instead of QWERTY still a skill I want to master one of these days.
For the rest I do understand the fact they didn't go for the light features... they want to attract this keyboard to offices (where people type for hours in a day). How cool some people think RGB looks it's not seen in many offices. In that setting people will not take you that serious and think you took a toy to work.
I totally agree that if you don't know how to type blind this might be a hard one. I would advice everybody who didn't learn how to type blind (or keyboarding) should take some courses... it's totally worth and pays itself back faster then you might think.
As several others have said, the Microsoft "Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000" is an awesome, much cheaper alternative to this. It's not wireless, but it has some macro keys and media keys and the same basic shape as this Logitech one. I actually game on mine at home and it 100% cured my carpal tunnel/RSI issues in my left wrist.
I have some experience with using differnt keyboard layouts so I can remove some of your concerns.
At work I use a Microsoft Sculpt which is a wireless split keyboard like the Logi in the video. I used that with the included Microsoft Sculpt Mouse untill it broke, replaced with a Logitech MX Vertical. At home at the same time I used a Truly Ergonomic keyboard, which has a split layout with the keys lined out straight. Also I have to use my partners keyboard at home to configure her computer, and at work when ever I am on the move I have to work on the laptop.
Switching between any of these layouts is no problem, as long as you can type on the key layout (QWERTY) to begin with. A split keyboard will make you quickly break bad habits like pressing B with the right hand or Y with the left hand. Once you do this on a split, you will follow on a 'regular' QWERTY layout. Then you can easily swap (like i do on a daily basis) between these layouts. Keep in mind some of the less 'standard' layouts like the truly ergonomic are a different story. My partner cannot enter her usernames or passwords on the Truly Ergonomic for example, but has no problem doing this on the split Microsoft Sculpt or her own "gaming" QWERTY keyboard. She is also a touch typist. While I dont make any more typing errors on one layout than the other, there is a difference in typing speed. For me that ranking has (over time) gone to where i am quickest on the Truly Ergonomic layout, followed by the Microsoft Sculpt layout simply due to posture, followed by any regular QWERTY (Which i am currently using (Logitech G Pro) for 2 years since the Truly Ergonomic had 3 Chery MX switches fail after it was attacked by liquid beverages... RIP).
So swapping layouts should not be a concern for anyone (in the long run). You will simply become more versatile in your ability to type on a 'regular' layout as well as any ergo/split layout you will use.
The backlight issue is already mentioned in the comments, should also not be an issue or deal breaker on an ergonomic keyboard. First for 'ergonomics' you shouldn't be working in the dark. Second you should be using it as a touch typist and type without looking you dont really need any backlighting. The F and J keys have those bumps so you can orient your hands/fingers without looking. So the backlighting would only be for 'looks'. Which is hardly worth it on a battery powered keyboard.
The price however is a different story, and especially compared to a Microsoft Sculpt, which is still somewhat available despite its age for €90 which includes a wireless keyboard AND mouse (half vertical design), has a better 'ergonomic' design because the numpad is split off seperatly which lets you keep your mose closer to your keyboard (better for your posture).
What i missed from this review is how many keys it can roll over, since the Microsoft Sculpt could not handle certain key combinations used in gaming (Shift + W + A + R for example to reload while sprinting sideways) which made me decide to NOT use it at home (and instead purchase a then €300 Truly Ergonomic which since broke..). And any form of 'latency' test to see if it is actually viable in the day and age of 165Hz monitors.
So for now, it is more expensive and less ergonomic (due to numpad position) than competitors and it has no documented benefit besides being Unify dongle compatible and being able to swap between 3 systems. If it had no impactful (wireless) latency (i use wireless gaming mice for years, G403 currently) and no issues with key rollover I might actually replace my Logi G Pro with this so i can easily swap between gaming system and laptop without changing any cables or dongles.
I fully agree. Never had issues using a normal keyboard after prolonged use of the Sculpt. Or using a mouse after using the trackball. Or the touchpad of the laptop.
I have 10keyless mechanical keyboard with cherry browns. I type MUCH faster on it. But then I also make much more typing errors. The worse key switches on the Sculpt has forced me to type slowly but with next to no typos. In the grand scheme I am not in such a hurry and I prefer to save my wrists and fingers.
I still keep my mechanical keyboard and ultra-fast gaming mouse for the gaming sessions I rarely do now.
I’m a touch typist who types basically all day for work. I never look at the keyboard except if I need to use a key that I rarely use (like the F row keys) so for me the backlighting is not an issue at all. I don’t use the number row, I only use the number pad which I also use without looking. No backlight, no problem.
With you covering the tech and peripherals and Dmitry covering the cases mostly, I think Mike should be covering something he likes, as he will speak about them more passionaltely.
I've been using the Logitech K860 for over ten months now.
The 6/^ key is on the wrong side of the split.
The feet for raising the wrist rest are fragile and are long gone.
The key action and shape of the keyboard are excellent.
The lack of any keyboard backlighting means that I'm still using the original batteries that came with the keyboard,
I have some carple tunnel starting up in my right wrist but this condition has improved since I started using this keyboard.
Although I would really like Logitech to put the 6 key on the right-hand side of the split where it belongs, I still recommend this keyboard.
The price, for a wireless keyboard of this quality, with dual capability for dongle or Bluetooth capability is an excellent value.
Looks like a great keyboard, but I’m still waiting for a tenkeyless version
not a ms fanboy, sculpt is great tho.
Great review! I actually don't like backlighting as I find it very distracting.
I'm a touch typist and I still want backlighting on my keyboard. It adds this mesmerizing and premium look to it
thank you for your review... as you rightly mentioned the lack of backlight is a deal breaker...
This or the Microsoft should be standard for every keyboard
Absolutely, to use a straight keyboard for long periods of typing is like taking a knife to your wrist.
The modifier keys on that one are a deal breaker for macOS.
But in TKL versions!
Thanks. This was actually helpful!
I use the Logitech K350 Wave Keyboard & M510 mouse, which comes as a set for around $80 US if I recall correctly. But it's time to upgrade my computer, and this keyboard/mouse is nearly 10 years old now. The K350 is comfortable, but as I get older, I think the split design and the raised center will lessen fatigue. Before the Wave, I used an old Microsoft ergonomic, split keyboard for six or eight years, so the layout is familiar.
This K860 sounds perfect, as my use case is is a static desk in a well-lit space. The letters and top row numbers are programmed into my brain. But the function keys and the number keyboard requires looking lol.
This video is on point and I'm looking foward to have ergonomic keyboard and mouse!
Could you review the Miscrosoft sculpt ergonomic mouse and keyboard combo?
I don't know about the mouse, but I've been using the keyboard since October 2015, it's awesome, the palmrest shows where I put my palms (a little natural oil and dimples) but nothing serious. the keys feel nice and they're not noisy. My only complains are that I'd rather the bigger-squarish Enter key (it is exactly as the one on this video) and there isn't any indicator for the Caps Lock key
I really love it.
Same here, 4+ years, my second sculpt keyboard now. The mouse was fine but not the greatest microsoft mouse by any means. I switched to Logitech Ergonomic trackball and it is much better for the wrist.
I wish they dumped the numpad to make space for the mouse. That together with a MX Vertical v2 with the free spin wheel from the master would be lovely!
Exactly. In my book, it cannot be called ergonomic with a numpad on the right. A separate numpad (w Unify receiver) would be the ticket.
Re the free spin wheel: for those who are not lucky enough to have it, the Scrollbar anywhere extension has a Grab & drag option (+ friction and speed settings) that work almost as good.
@@NVGEAR, for me too -- and we can have one ON THE LEFT or a SEPARATE one...
@@NVGEAR yeah, that's why they should make one wireless, just like the Microsoft keyboard sculpt has.
Keyboards that are ergonomic that are better than that:
XD75 re
Ergodox / Iris/Sol etc.
Tgr alice and clones
Ymdk sp64/sp84
Dactl and Dactl Manuform
asthmaticrhino underrated comment
@moo I agree with most of what you're saying, the alice is probably the least ergonomic of the bunch, but having typed for more than a week on a scuplt vs. daily driving an XD75, it's a really low bar. I spent 20 minutes typing on a friend's alice and I'd say it's still about as good as the sculpt, despite not having tenting.
The best ergodox's I've felt are actually the ones they sell with the fully scuplted keycaps. Once you put a DSA set on them they take a hit to the comfort.
If I had to do a ranking to "ergonomic-ness" I'd probably go datctl, iris, ergodox, then the split keebs, then the xd75, then the alice.
That being said, everyone has different wrists, and the further it is from what people know, the harder it will be to adjust. I would say something like a Mistrel staggered split with a good set of wrists rests would alleviate a large amount of typing strain for a lot of people without having to go all out on a Manuform and learn a completely new way of typing.
I don’t jump a lot in the comment section but I really wanted to point out that this was a great video. Well made, well said and much more that I can’t add because of my primitive keyboard currently hurting my wrists.
Good video.
You suggested that we skip this model, but what does Hardware Canuks recommend?
Also a video request- keyboard and mouse for different professions- creatives, programmers,/ typist gamers, old people etc
Great and thoughtful review.
One item that is missing in the review is keystrokes noise factor.
Great video. Thanks for your analyse
I am using MS Sculpt. Such shape really saved my hands from pain. I hate only a couple of things in my kb - awful Fn keys (they are not scissor-switch) and bad location of Home/End/PgUp/PgDown. I would try K860 ergo, but the price...
Nice review. I think I would like this keyboard. My daily driver is the Kinesis Advantage2 which I can't recommend enough, even though it's twice the price of this for a refurbished model. I really like the Microsoft Sculpt, tenkeyless and a similar tenting angle in the middle. They're also about $50 on eBay, but would be concerned about resale/return if you didn't like it. I also agree that while LED back lighting is not necessary, it sure does look nice. Disappointing at the price point of $130, wouldn't be worth complaining about if this were under $100.
I am using the MX Keys and I LOVE it - the little clicks are addicting, it's thin, back lit and works. I wish it had a wrist rest, it would be perfect! I CAN"T believe the ergo MX does not have back lit keys - seriously - what was Logitech thinking? Back lit keys are not a necessity, but we there is the cool factor to consider.
Really good video! How about comparing this keyboard to the Microsoft Ergonomic Surface, the Microsoft Scuplt and other ergonomic ones? That would be awesome for the general public interested in buying a good ergonomic keyboard!
I became a touch typist as a child already as my parents sent me to an official course. Their reasoning was that it'd be a very useful thing for me in the future. They were so right about that.
As a professional author and software developer, my best friend is my ergonomic keyboard. Having used the Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000 & 3000 keyboards for a while, I have since a few years settled on the Microsoft Natural 4000. Though first released in 2005, the Natural 4000 is still the best ergonomic keyboard in the world, and also very cheap at $25-50.
The Natural 4000 being wired-only is great for me as well. I don't mind a cable running over my desk, as I have one for my wired mouse as well. The Sculpt being wireless-only is the main reason why I have never tried it. In my experience the Natural 4000 is a workhorse that'll keep working and working, and once it wears out, a new one is pretty darn cheap.
Tl;dr: I'll never try this Logitech Ergo keyboard because it's wireless-only and freakin' expensive. My Natural 4000 suits me fine.
I haven't tried this one, but over the years I tried a few ergo designs and really love the positioning with the MS Ergo 4000, but have found that despite the worse wrist positioning with traditional keyboards, the overall experience is still better for me with a 'normal' clicky mechanical keyboard than with a membrane ergo. If someone would copy the MS Ergo 4000 layout but make it clicky mechanical I could die a happy typist.
I haven't used a split keyboard in a while, but the Microsoft Natural keyboard has no equal in my opinion. If you are starting to take a shine to split keyboards, you owe it to yourself to try that one out.
Addendum: I just bought this one, and it is very nice. I got this because Microsoft's wireless ergonomic keyboards tend to have flaky connections.
Hey, couple months later I’m looking to buy first split keyboard for at home productivity which do u recommend? I have terrible fingers that lock up a lot and my wrists would hurt when I would play claw on a controller. Thanks for sharing 🙏🏽
@@xxzeta
I haven't tried very many of the new ergonomic keyboards, but I'm VERY happy with the ergonomics of this particular keyboard. The main downside is that the included AAA batteries lasted longer than the paint on the keycaps.
The obsession with backlighting boggles my mind, if you care at all about ergonomics you'll be using it in an environment that is adequately lit, making the lack of backlighting a non issue.
I'm currently rocking a Kinesis Freestyle Edge gaming keyboard, and although it is WAAAY better than a standard keyboard, I still feel there is much to be desired. Keyboard manufactures need to think about how they can better utilize our most versatile digits: our thumbs. My all time favorite input devices are actually the Razer Orbweaver and now the Razer Tartarus Pro with the optical switches I just purchased. Ergonomically, they are fantastic, and having 2 thumb keys and an 4-8 way directional pad offers MANY possible opportunities for all sorts of complex use case scenarios. I use it mostly for gaming and editing, but you can create profiles for just about anything. Personally, I'd love to just have two of these things, one for each hand, and then just ditch a regular keyboard altogether. Come on Logitech! Bring back the a modern variant of the G13, and compete with Razer!! But go one further, and show some left-handed folks some love and then build in a simple USB Type-C link between the right and left handed devices so that we may have a badass ergonomic split keyboard experience like no other!!!! I mean, with Logitech's software and G-Shift (not unlike Razers implementation), just imagine all the possibilities!!
I have been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 since 2007 and the same keyboard from then still works like a champ to this day. Microsoft makes good peripherals.
Northgate Evolution. This keyboard has been my main keyboard since around 2002. Its split design has been a God send! Soon after using it I gave up on conventional keyboards as the strain was just too uncomfortable. Yes, I have had to repair it a few times but for this old school nerd it has been more than worth it.
Have been using the Logitech Ergonomic combo set in the late 1990's then switched to Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 at home...and still using it today. At work using a Kinesis Freestyle2 VIP3. Love them all, would not go back to normal keyboard...and oh...I'm thinking of upgrading my existing keyboard at home
I swear by ergo keyboards. I've used a Microsoft Natural (the old white one), a Natural 4000 (the black and silver one, still just $40-50 online), and now an Ergodox-EZ Glow. RGB, mechanical, 76-key, with socketed switches so you can replace them with whatever Kailh BOX you prefer. I've got Thick Golds (clicky, almost "poppy") but I'm debating BOX Navy since I keep hitting keys by accident.
Getting used to an Ergo of any form definitely makes switching back to a traditional layout less than ideal, though.
Chris Frizzell I have the non Glow with Kailh Gold, blank PBT keycaps and type on the Colemak ModDH layout and it’s a dream. I can switch keyboards fine but I always find myself disappointed when not on my ergodox. I HATE staggered rows now.
I'm on my second Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 in 14 years. Still love it, but I want to switch to a Kinesis Advantage2 very soon!
About the LED - that's also my rant when I bought a Logitech K380 keyboard as a temporary 'reliever' away from mechanical keyboard, but after only 2 days, I'd much rather have no led for it. You'll just get that good feel of typing with it without looking as much as possible :)
I've been a long time ergonomic keyboard user and I learned something important from my peers: If you've ever had any kind of touch typing class and mostly follow those rules, then ergonomic keyboards are worth giving a try. If you taught yourself to type over time, then the layout is probably not going to work well for you.
When I first staring using an ergonomic keyboard, I had to train myself not to bend my wrists as I would for a regular keyboard; I was bending my wrists as I would for a regular keyboard and then I was bending my fingers extra to reach the keys, meaning that I was putting extra stress onto my hands instead of less.
Side note: if you want a split design but you also want mechanical, and/or you want a number pad, then check out the keyboard from x-bows.
my #1 keyboard. love love love this keyboard. its more comfortable. I have been a ergo keyboard user for 20 years.
there are many options for ergo mech keyboards in the custom keyboard community it's just incredibly expensive
a number of my colleagues use a split keyboard from kinesis. its a bit different, but you can configure it similarly with risers in the middle. i think its a few hundred usd
@@insertnamehere6559 name? and I meant the one that you build yourself and simmer switch by switch
@@insertnamehere6559 I've only seen rly expensive options and didn't know this was a thing cus I don't rly like ergo keyboards but this is rly nice for the price
As a chat advisor, specifically helping 3 customers at once. I just purchased this.
this doesn’t make any sense
@@ok-rh4vp how so, i am a tech support agent for a major company we have been very busy over the last 6 months since covid, so its three chats at once, all day long 8 hours a day. have to say having this comfortable keyboard really has helped me out a ton. i no longer have any wrist pain. i also did get the Logitech spin ball mouse which for sure helps. if anyone is on the borderline of buying this i would say it definitely is worth it
Jake Doc your comment sounded like “oh I am a doctor. I just bought this table” it didn’t have any context so I was confused
@@ok-rh4vp haha
I love my Kinesis Freestyle Edge and Kinesis Freestyle Blue. I use the Freestyle Blue at work where not having the back light is not really an issue, but I love the Freestyle Edge at home where i can use it in a dark room without any issues.
I use both keyboards at shoulder width apart, which is what I really love about these keyboards. It really helped with dealing with shoulder and elbow pain.
I have been using the Freestyle Blue for about 4 years now and I still love it. I have found I have a little issue with switch from my laptop keyboard to the Freestyles, but they are similar enough it is not much of an issue.
Autonomous Sit Stand desk is incredibly good quality. Even the tabletop that comes with it is great and the packaging is fantastic to avoid damage in transit. I got the business model for the extended warranty and the dual motors are quick and very quiet compared to other sit stand desks. I'd highly recommend it to anyone looking for a quality sit stand desk for an affordable price.
P.S. Get a friend to help with setup otherwise you'll probably throw your back out like I did. My own fault though haha.
I would love to see a review on the MX Ergo or another ergonomic mouse, this type of device make a great difference to healthy
I use the MX ergo, I find the tilt to be worth the cost compared to the Logitech M570. The ball is a little more firmly secured in the socket which actually I don't prefer because it makes it a little harder to clean, but overall I still prefer the mx ergo. The resolution is quite tight, and there's a precision mode button. It works nicely with both bluetooth and the "unifying receiver" . I have won games of apex legends and starcraft 2 using it, so you can still game with it. I don't have an ergo keyboard but I do have an ergo mouse, and part of that is all the motion that goes into a mouse. I was developing carpal tunnel and I have done some stretches to help mitigate and manage it and that has been helpful but I do see a trackball mouse such as the MX ergo as a good way to constructively respond to it. Personally I also enjoy carrying the MX Ergo with me to use with my laptop, you will get some funny looks but it is really nice having a full desk experience without requiring a full desk worth of space (the mouse doesn't have to move). For me my strategy of reducing travel distance has been helpful in managing my symptoms, obviously your mileage may vary. I do find that the angle of the mx ergo is a substantial improvement to the m570, which I still think is a good choice to affordably cut back on repetitive stress. If you can afford it get the mx ergo, if you can't then try the m570. Either one will be a marked improvement over a traditional mouse in my experience and opinion.
I used to have a Microsoft ergo keyboard years ago, like 10 or so years ago. It was amazing to type fast on and I used it for gaming. This is back before everything had to have the word "gaming" in front of it. When I switched back to a standard layout I couldn't type for a month.
OLKB Preonic Ortholinear? I've been using that and its been enjoyable and apparently more "ergonomic" Great video as always!
I have the Surface Ergonomic one with the fabric finish, I really like it.