I still miss you. I often wonder how many others are looking at your back catalog of videos and how relevant they are today. You were and still are a part of my routine.
I do that exact thing man.. Gamers and the games industry in general miss TB badly these days. I do hope he’s in a better place and at peace now. Rest easy Biscuit
9:30 That's probably one of the main problems with Kickstarter on both ends: The misconception that Kickstarter contributions are donations. It might in effect be like that in praxis, but it shouldn't be. Of course there's no guarantee for success, but as you mentioned earlier, there is responsibility. Because if there are no mechanisms in place to supervise a project's progress, then confidence tricks would be even more encouraged. You could just fake a project, tell that unfortunately it failed due to various issues, when in fact you just took the money and spent it for your own pleasure.
Kickstarter to me is donating towards someone's dreams or ideas - I always look at it on 2 levels: 1. What reward tier I would want should the project be completed, 2. How much can I spare to help someone pursue an idea I can willingly support. Some projects I think would be good for the environment, but only have a passing interest in, get a small donation (like Balrum), while others that I'm exceptionally interested in seeing enter the wild, I invest much more in (like Hex)
Anything that goes up against big game companies is a good idea. I have gotten a few games funded on KS and love it, though it does have many problems now that it has expanded in bad areas.
Both pre-ordering and kickstarting is throwing your money away. Kickstarting isn't any less risky in fact i'd argue it is more. No one should pre-order under any circumstances but kick starter funding is ok is where you lost me. There is a huge issue with game funding particularly with the lack of projected 'release dates'. Some have stayed in alpha/ beta indefinitely. I think your video does provide good information about realistic expectations when thinking about funding a project. Some are just as under handed showing prototypes of what look to be fully fleshed out games but are still in the concept phase.
I love how thought through all of your, 'rants' (in a good way) are, it is always quite nice to listen to a very informed view. -Coming from an aspiring dev
TB, the only guy i can listen too while simultaneously getting my work done. I really enjoy these. While I don't always agree with you (I do here) I always enjoy listening to your opinion and how you came to it. Signed - the silent majority.
uhhh... the idea with pleaging is that the developers dont have the necessary money to program the game "NOW". they cant make the game and get the money later... they need it "NOW"... and with pledges ... they can get it "NOW"
Similar question: What do you think about projects like pCars from the Slightly Mad Studios? Also crowd founded, however we have direct contact to the developers via the forum, get up to daily builds of the project. And on top of that, we are getting a revenue of the game sales, when released. IMO it's better for everyone. Developers get within 15 minutes responses if something is good or bad, they can make the games they want to make and the founders even get money back.
Personally, the two projects I've funded on Kickstarter have left me pleasantly surprised. I was an early backer of the Gustin jean company and I recently pledged for a copy of Soul Saga, where we get to bounce gameplay ideas back and forth with the dev during streams.
I only pre-ordered 3 games and only ordered 2 of them in order to receive the statue figures that came with the collectors edition , after pre-ordering dragon age 2 and seeing its use of the same map area 10 times as a "different area" it made me decide to wait for games to come out and see the bigger picture before ordering it, and unless i just really want a collectiable item that comes with the collectors edition i will not be pre-ording, no stores near me carry collectors edition.
Thanks for the suggestions, TB. As a person looking to get into game developing in the future, I will certainly keep what you said about kickstarters in mind if I decide to crowd-source a project, which, I probably will at some point.
I look at Kickstarter as a micropayment/microloan version of a VC. It's up to me to do my research and like a VC I do expect a return on my investment but also like a VC there is some risk involved.
the problem is that the embargo is usually lifted extremely late if the game is bad so reviews cant be published, also kickstarting and pre-ordering are completely different, pre-ordering is the same as buying except you do it with out as much info as after launch but you get a bonus of some kind, kickstarting is pledging money for the development itself. so if you don't pre-order and wait for the game it still come out you just lose the bonus if you don't kickstart the game might not come out.
When I said that I was talking about 'consoles' as honestly, that's where pre-orders really matter honestly. I think it's 'almost' unneeded to pre-order a PC game *as I've only pre-ordered 2-3 myself (shadowrun returns, Dark souls, & one more I can't recall the other one honestly), though I've only pre-ordered 2 PS3 games I can recall FF13-2 & Dragon's Dogma *which I didn't get because of an X(* v.V :p pre-orders should be upto personal taste.
I am so glad you did this video, too many people seem to think backing a kickstarter project is the same thing as pre-ordering. Honestly, its a problem that is starting to bleed into the minds of even a few devs...
@Devver08 it's not idiotic because he's saying you can throw disposable money at games you would like to see made on kickstarter but with preordering the game is (almost) definitely coming out already so there's no need to pay for it early as either way it will still come out and so you may as well wait for it to be released so you can read its reviews. This option isn't available for kickstarter games as it probably won't come out if no one throws their money at it.
Not sure about UK law, but in the USA you can seek that the defendant's wages be garnished to repay any debts. This means that any future income they make, a percentage of that will be required to be put into paying restitution. So, even if someone is broke and you sue them for monetary damages, you might not get all of the money back, but you can attempt to get that money back and potentially get some of it back.
Or, alternatively, I wait a few days, since if I'm not exactly sure, I can see tons of people doing Day 1 Playthroughs (or, for JRPG's, watch the Japanese version for a bit).
why in the fuck is someone that is considered "amateur hour" actually providing answers to one of the most important gaming industry's questions so lowly rated. TB keep up the good work. You're only respected by a minority now. You will be the authority in years to come. I'm glad I'm here to see you rise.
There are three different kinds of Kickstarter game campaigns: - Game development proposals such as Doublefine's Broken Age and Massive Challice; You basically provide venture capital to the dev for salaries and running costs. What it really offers is insight into and some influence on the development of the game. - Game finishing; Basically you pay for a copy with no effect on it. - Game extensions; Kickstarters to fund additions to a game that is already released or far along the dev cycle.
Just makes me chuckle that someone actually needed an explaination why kickstarter is different from pre-order ;d Nice to hear your thoughts as always Mr.Biscuit.
There is a pretty substantial difference between the two actually as TB said.. One you're essentially acting as an investor with some added incentives for something that doesn't even exist yet and has a chance it could fail to even make launch, while the other is buying a product that is for all intents and purposes done and dusted. In essense the difference is the risk involved and if you go in thinking of kickstarter as a pre-order service you're asking for potential disapointment.
point is its better to buy later then pre-order since you still get the same thing just with more info on it, if you don't kickstart something it might not come out. both are a risk except you get almost nothing if you pre-order anyway
That's a big difference. A preorder is for a game that is going to be release whether or not you pay for it beforehand. A kickstarter is given to a game that may very well not be released if it doesn't meet a donation level. He's saying that kickstarting is risky but it has a reward(a game that might not be made and that you want it to) but that preordering has no rewards(maybe some kind of small sale price or a digital item) but carries a huge risk as most negative reviews are after release.
That's why I put "investment" in quotations. You know exactly what I'm saying: You're gambling with your money when you pay for a game that hasn't yet been released and therefore hasn't yet been reviewed or evaluated by anyone. For all you know, it could not only live up to expectations but also be incredibly buggy/unstable.
I agree with you about kick starter. I kick started Wasteland 2 and only because it has a reputable developing team. They send out newsletters to keep us up on how the game is coming along and if they're on time and if they're having problems.
I hard coded it. I did not use one of those products designed to make programing a game easier. Its all in Java (I know easiest langauge), and I still want to work on it more, to include an item system and equipment system and a looting system.
Neither of those options are funding the game's development though. The poster i was replying to said a kick start can cost $100,000 to make a game but a pre-order can cost $1 to make a game. Basically he compared the price of CREATING AN ENTIRE GAME to the price of a customer pre-ordering a game.
I was under the impression that Steam must buy digital "keys" from the pubs in order to list the games for sale. On the basis that they could fudge their own records and pocket profits if they did not do that. So there can be a delay in availability, though that rarely happens considering the process is likely entirely digital.
When a game is discounted, Valve gets less too. So if a game is 49.99 $, Valve gets 30% off that and if a game is discounted to 7.5 $, Valve gets 30% off 7.5. And also, it does seem a lot but before DD a big cut was going to retail stores and shipping, etc...
Interesting way to phrase it. I would have said it's based on the idea that the more informed you are as a consumer, the better, and that pre-ordering is usually an emotional response stemming from brand loyalty, fanboyism and successful marketing. Kickstarters, are supposed to be risky. You're donating money to a game in the development stage. But when you make an actual purchase, the smart consumer makes sure his risk is as close to zero as possible.
The more transparent you are with your projects, the more people will be satisfied that they are making a good decision by providing you with the funds you are being honest with them in how you are using them.
Totally respect your opinion; I only ever pre-order games I 100% know I'd get anyway (GTA V, AC IV, Saints Row IV, Destiny, etc) and I totally respect your opinion. Keep on making your amazing videos, TB!
Games on Kickstarter these times must show ingame videos. It is really difference when you see two artwork or just talking devs and on the other side good impressive actual ingame footage. Kingdom Come: Deliverance reach in two days their goal, RPG, fantastic ingame trailer, devs atd... www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance And look at Unsung Story now, RPG, just talking devs, slow pledge process(still good). www.kickstarter.com/projects/482445197/unsung-story-tale-of-the-guardians?ref=discovery
ATLUS games are known for 'limited' runs all in all, and they can run out within 2 weeks easily. Though there are other limited runs as well.*where the store just doesn't have any ability to do anything about it So because there is a special case showing demand for a certain game that showed heavy interest in 'hard' or 'unforgiving' games on the PC,*which btw has spawned loads of games because it was shown the interest is there*it should be thrown out because it doesn't fit your model of things
The thing is with stretch goals for games Tom Raider is that the content is most probably made already with the intention of releasing it if the stretch goal has been passed. In fact, if this was true, it is more a scummy tactic to get more guaranteed sales than spare change because they are holding back finished content.
not exactly surprised... it was exactly the same as on 360 i mean they didn't even bother changing the buttons or testing/optimizing it. guy made a patch for it to allow it to run on more then 720p in less then 24h from what i remember, also hardly an excuse since they did get paid full price for it.
Mixed honestly, but when it came down to it, it also shows steam there is support there as well. There is more then 1 company that needs to be shown there is interest. What other better what to pre-order a game that's genre hasn't gotten enough official backing for steam to pick It up more often then once and a while as an odd indie project. *There is enough issues with Greenlight as is*
Oh, there's another aspect of "fail" here - if the project gets funded but not actually manages to produce it's supposed product. Sorry about my confusion about that.
Sure kickstarter can be good juju or karma, but all in all, pre-orders can give you bonuses as well *nothing close to what a kickstarter can*, but at the end of the day your only paying retail price not donating 100$+ for one title for some crazy level perk *which is fine if you can do that* Though the benefits to a pre-order can be there for those who use it as it was intended to be or just don't want to bother risking if they'll have the spare money, & can be used to coverup a gift 4 a gamer.
The few things I have to see before I even consider about backing something on kickstarter are: 1. Demo (or super in depth about the game like what Armikrog did, or a trailer for the game that contains actual gameplay and/or cutscenes to know the people are serious). 2. Breakdown in pricing. 3. The companies reputation I do disagree with one of the preorder things though. With console games usually preordering games costs just as much as new AND it shows how many games a store might order...
Exactly right. TB constantly repeats the 'buyer beware, only if you really want to see the project succeed!' Eg: look at the kickstarter project for the smartphone called the Ubuntu Edge, with a 720p display (so 2011), 128gb storage, and 4GB of RAM, that dual boots ubuntu desktop and Android...and the minimum you must currently contribute is $775. Crazy thing is: if they don't get 32million dollars in a month nobody gets the phone. People have raised 7mill so far...it's extreme buyer beware.
When you donate money to a kickstarter, there is an understand that whatever project you funded might not get off the ground. Most of the gifts they offer are obviously conditional on the release of the game. You'll actually find that a lot of donation platforms offer gift based incentives to entice people to pledge money. Getting a poppy for giving money to the VFW, getting a new annex named after you for giving money to a hospital and everything in between.
These copies are then NON-RETURNABLE copies purchased by the Corporation. That means the Dev (Or Publisher) who makes that benchmark has just sold extra copies which won't be returned via the warehouse due to their pre-order deal with the retailers. The games which have huge Pre-Orders are given special attention by reviewers and extra promotion, that's money in the pocket via advertising. This is similar to a "Bestseller List" and how it operates for books.
I never pre order because i know in a few weeks it will go on sale for around 30% off and i only kickstart things i deeply want to see be a thing (which is mot likely what TB will say)
Could a class action lawsuit against a Kickstarter Project allow for the suit to win rights to the projects source code or current holdings? If you could release this to the open source market then perhaps you could get the game onto the market in the end...
I pre-order because I know I wont have all the money when the game comes out, and with a pre-order I can pay over time if I have money. I only pre-order game I want to play and I know will be good.
TB, Im really confused as to Cameron's proposition to block certain information on the internet, "On-by-default UK internet filters will block content relating to alcohol, smoking, web forums, "esoteric material," and web blocking circumvention tools". I believe this could be a slippery slope and as we have experienced in the past, restricting the use of the internet by the public has never been viewed as a good thing. Although this has little to do with gaming I would like to hear your thoughts
A guy I know is from Denmark (Taastrup near Copenhagen), and he just told me (literally 5 minutes ago) that if you can't buy a 500$ PC that does the same as consoles at the moment you're doing something really wrong. Sure you won't be able to buy a pc that outruns the nextgen consoles for that money, but they also haven't been released yet, and neither have games for it, and if you get a 500$ pc now and upgrade it for half that a few months after nextgen releases you'll be able to play np
The thing is most kickstarter donators were desillusioned by all the promised stuff. For Example the Ouya which dissappointed the most because they thought of ps3 graphics and got a smartphone for tv and there were more blunders like this and now nobody wants to back something cause you would never donate for something when you think that your item will become mediocre at least
I think the desire to do logical leaps and gymnastics is perfectly fine and noble.. It's also what was known in a by-gone age as intellectual discussions. A discipline TB should appreciate, being the gentleman he undoubtedly is.
@ etheldir my point is that people's problems with pre-orders blossomed from the whole alien colonial marines fiasco which (most will say) was not what they expected. As TB stated, you've no guarantee the kickstarter will A. Even be built to completion or B. Be any good at all. Both marketing schemes are not giving you enough information to truly determine if a game is a good fit for you and is a gamble in *both* instances.
Do you have a source some where that says more the pre-order money go towards the actual game? It's possible pre-orders as a incentive for publisher to possibly fund it more, but where does it say that some of that money funds the game? I can see this for some indie games if they are self-published but that seems niche meaning to say all pre-orders funds games.
I certainly agree that Kickstarter and pre ordering are not entirely mutual. But surely stretch goals ARE. Stretch goals are there to line the developers pocket with spare change prior to release, so that they may add things to their game. But pre orders do the exact same thing. We've seen stretch goals for pre ordering certain games like Tomb Raider. Personally I wouldn't take the chance on kickstarter, but if I did, I wouldn't back a project once it's initial goal was reached.
full price of 40$ USD... that came with additional content as well *ontop of the console versions* & that Day 1 patch, as with a few others are impressive, but unstable to this day because of the methods used. The game was completely playable even w/o the patch, & even if you use a PS3 controller with your PC, it's dead easy to trick programs to think it's a 360 pad, & it works better then one as well. Also no one expected it to be optimized for KB&M, even though some people can play it like dat
No, the money is pledged, not removed from your account until the project actually ends successfully. When Forge failed no money was drawn from my account and instead they offered another support option for pledges.
As usual TB hit the nail right on the head. People are treating Kickstarter as a store. If you want a store, wait for the game to actually come out then preorder or buy it. Kickstarter isn't a preorder store service. It's you donating money for a project. They promise you stuff, usually the game itself, in return for doing that, but if the project flops, you most likely won't get that investment back.
course, but it secures a copy for you so you don't have to worry about people who show up @ store opening & buy out the game that's in limited run anyways *& your lucky to see the run last 2 weeks* IT's not all about putting the money aside, Pre-orders started out to ensure that X person gets the game they wanted, and doesn't have to fight the crazy opening crowds or do stupid shit to get their game.
Kind of off-topic but are you planning on doing an early look ( maybe Alpha-strike ) on Lost Planet 3? The steam preorder is up but there is barely a trailer there and no gameplay footage so far... kind of makes me think.
Concrete information about the game from the developer, like descriptions of the game and genre, as I've said. This information tends to go much further and even provides the basis of reviews of the game when reviews are available.
the point is that once you make up your mind most people try to look for reasons as to why they are in fact correct rather then actual criticism so they end up looking at/believing the better reviews.
the 2 action have wildly varying consequences and in fact are in essence different... kickstarter is pledging money to a game you want to come out to help with its development pre-ordering is paying money for a game you only have biased matirial of so you can a small discount/in game bonus. problem is you treat them as the same thing
My question to you TotalBiscuit, is do you think pre ordering can be beneficial to the consumer is it ever okay to pre order game. I myself pre ordered Rise of the Tried, I a video of you playing it at PAX and the pre order offered not only a discount but also 3 free games. It was also only $15 which I thought was reasonable.
My point is that it's not impossible, & even though it's far easier to 'restock' digital keys then it is to print more discs, doesn't mean it can't happen.
seems to me that the idea is that if you pre-order something you are buying something sight unseen that you can wait and see what its like. if you are pledging on kick starter you are buying something sight unseen form something that will not exist to be seen later if you don't kick it. So, kicking is okay because you finance a product while pre-ordering is bad because you finance marketing. Marketing bad, products good. hence preorder bad, kicking good.
That isn't necessarily true about pre-orders. Many times it is difficult to fund the development of games between releases and pre-orders are a way of making it over that gap to the next release while still having some form of pay.
very well then in about 1% of games its worth pre-ordering as they might run out of keys... that's more or less what we're arguing about atm. also its not an excuse your point was that it was worth pre-ordering as the game might run out of stock, i was just saying that in almost all cases digital copies never run out
I think ultimately, it doesn't matter how you decide to purchase your games. Preference and methods to determine if you'd like that game doesn't really matter. What matters is that you purchase a game that WORKS.
I dont need people to tell me if a game is good or not before I buy it. The last game i bought after preordering was The Last of Us, it was not a mistake. its nothing like mailing a cheque. it only requires you to pay £5 to reserve the game, thats it. even if you decide when the time comes not to buy it then you are only out £5, big woop. and if you do buy it then you are only paying the normal price anyway. its exactly the same as if you went straight to the store and bought it on launch
Fair enough, I see your point. Personally I don't pre-order, but I do think pre-ordering is a perfectly good way to purchase a game. If you're excited for it and you want to play the latest games ASAP ain't nothing wrong with reserving a copy that'll come with extra bits & bobs. A Colonial Marines pre-order situation happens so rarely, you can't completely dismiss an entire purchasing practice because of a few bad apples. Heck, at least people got to experience that awful game.
TB, what is your position on the whole Planetary Annihilation debate about their Steam Early Access pricing being the same (very high) price as their Kickstarter tier promising early access? It felt like it should have been in this video as it touches on just that difference between Kickstarter and a regular early purchase (even though in this case it is not a pre-purchase in the same sense).
difference is if you don't pre-order the game still comes out exactly the same as if you would and you can just buy it after launch when you have more info. on the other hand if you don't pledge to kickstarter the game might never come out. you over simplified it and didn't take into account that if people don't kickstart then the game is likely never to come out so there's actually a point to kickstarting even if its a risk since there's a reword as well
Kickstarter should have a black list of develeopers with names...
not like people just make up new studios
I still miss you. I often wonder how many others are looking at your back catalog of videos and how relevant they are today. You were and still are a part of my routine.
I do that exact thing man.. Gamers and the games industry in general miss TB badly these days. I do hope he’s in a better place and at peace now. Rest easy Biscuit
9:30 That's probably one of the main problems with Kickstarter on both ends: The misconception that Kickstarter contributions are donations. It might in effect be like that in praxis, but it shouldn't be. Of course there's no guarantee for success, but as you mentioned earlier, there is responsibility.
Because if there are no mechanisms in place to supervise a project's progress, then confidence tricks would be even more encouraged. You could just fake a project, tell that unfortunately it failed due to various issues, when in fact you just took the money and spent it for your own pleasure.
For kickstarter you are an "Investor". Pre-ordering is just a blind consumer purchase.
Now do Kickstarter v Pre-order v Early Access?
Kickstarter to me is donating towards someone's dreams or ideas - I always look at it on 2 levels: 1. What reward tier I would want should the project be completed, 2. How much can I spare to help someone pursue an idea I can willingly support. Some projects I think would be good for the environment, but only have a passing interest in, get a small donation (like Balrum), while others that I'm exceptionally interested in seeing enter the wild, I invest much more in (like Hex)
I guess thats a early version of FTL cause the ships not green in my game...
Anything that goes up against big game companies is a good idea. I have gotten a few games funded on KS and love it, though it does have many problems now that it has expanded in bad areas.
Both pre-ordering and kickstarting is throwing your money away. Kickstarting isn't any less risky in fact i'd argue it is more. No one should pre-order under any circumstances but kick starter funding is ok is where you lost me. There is a huge issue with game funding particularly with the lack of projected 'release dates'. Some have stayed in alpha/ beta indefinitely. I think your video does provide good information about realistic expectations when thinking about funding a project. Some are just as under handed showing prototypes of what look to be fully fleshed out games but are still in the concept phase.
I love how thought through all of your, 'rants' (in a good way) are, it is always quite nice to listen to a very informed view.
-Coming from an aspiring dev
The only games I'm glad I pre-ordered are The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings and The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.
I am happy for trying to buy a copy of X-COM two days too early, ended up pre-ordering and got it 10e cheaper, WITH the customization pack.
TB, the only guy i can listen too while simultaneously getting my work done. I really enjoy these. While I don't always agree with you (I do here) I always enjoy listening to your opinion and how you came to it. Signed - the silent majority.
uhhh... the idea with pleaging is that the developers dont have the necessary money to program the game "NOW". they cant make the game and get the money later... they need it "NOW"... and with pledges ... they can get it "NOW"
Yeah, then when game devs squander that money. Have fun =)
Similar question: What do you think about projects like pCars from the Slightly Mad Studios?
Also crowd founded, however we have direct contact to the developers via the forum, get up to daily builds of the project. And on top of that, we are getting a revenue of the game sales, when released. IMO it's better for everyone. Developers get within 15 minutes responses if something is good or bad, they can make the games they want to make and the founders even get money back.
Once the devs get the money, there is no incentive to work hard on the game, my opinion
Personally, the two projects I've funded on Kickstarter have left me pleasantly surprised. I was an early backer of the Gustin jean company and I recently pledged for a copy of Soul Saga, where we get to bounce gameplay ideas back and forth with the dev during streams.
Maaaaaaan, didn't notice before but having FTL's music in the background is really very soothing. ^_____^
I only pre-ordered 3 games and only ordered 2 of them in order to receive the statue figures that came with the collectors edition , after pre-ordering dragon age 2 and seeing its use of the same map area 10 times as a "different area" it made me decide to wait for games to come out and see the bigger picture before ordering it, and unless i just really want a collectiable item that comes with the collectors edition i will not be pre-ording, no stores near me carry collectors edition.
Thanks for the suggestions, TB. As a person looking to get into game developing in the future, I will certainly keep what you said about kickstarters in mind if I decide to crowd-source a project, which, I probably will at some point.
I look at Kickstarter as a micropayment/microloan version of a VC. It's up to me to do my research and like a VC I do expect a return on my investment but also like a VC there is some risk involved.
to be honest, i mostly back music on kickstarter, though i've only had one project I backed fail, and that was a game project.
the problem is that the embargo is usually lifted extremely late if the game is bad so reviews cant be published, also kickstarting and pre-ordering are completely different, pre-ordering is the same as buying except you do it with out as much info as after launch but you get a bonus of some kind, kickstarting is pledging money for the development itself. so if you don't pre-order and wait for the game it still come out you just lose the bonus if you don't kickstart the game might not come out.
When I said that I was talking about 'consoles' as honestly, that's where pre-orders really matter honestly. I think it's 'almost' unneeded to pre-order a PC game *as I've only pre-ordered 2-3 myself (shadowrun returns, Dark souls, & one more I can't recall the other one honestly), though I've only pre-ordered 2 PS3 games I can recall FF13-2 & Dragon's Dogma *which I didn't get because of an X(*
v.V :p pre-orders should be upto personal taste.
I am so glad you did this video, too many people seem to think backing a kickstarter project is the same thing as pre-ordering. Honestly, its a problem that is starting to bleed into the minds of even a few devs...
I've seen it happen on Steam once, and even thought it was a weekend more keys were available later that day.
He has a video where he talks about pre--orders. I think it's called should you pre-order or something like that.
@Devver08 it's not idiotic because he's saying you can throw disposable money at games you would like to see made on kickstarter but with preordering the game is (almost) definitely coming out already so there's no need to pay for it early as either way it will still come out and so you may as well wait for it to be released so you can read its reviews. This option isn't available for kickstarter games as it probably won't come out if no one throws their money at it.
Not sure about UK law, but in the USA you can seek that the defendant's wages be garnished to repay any debts. This means that any future income they make, a percentage of that will be required to be put into paying restitution. So, even if someone is broke and you sue them for monetary damages, you might not get all of the money back, but you can attempt to get that money back and potentially get some of it back.
Or, alternatively, I wait a few days, since if I'm not exactly sure, I can see tons of people doing Day 1 Playthroughs (or, for JRPG's, watch the Japanese version for a bit).
You tell em Man! been watching your videos for years! Loved the video
why in the fuck is someone that is considered "amateur hour" actually providing answers to one of the most important gaming industry's questions so lowly rated.
TB keep up the good work. You're only respected by a minority now. You will be the authority in years to come.
I'm glad I'm here to see you rise.
There are three different kinds of Kickstarter game campaigns:
- Game development proposals such as Doublefine's Broken Age and Massive Challice; You basically provide venture capital to the dev for salaries and running costs. What it really offers is insight into and some influence on the development of the game.
- Game finishing; Basically you pay for a copy with no effect on it.
- Game extensions; Kickstarters to fund additions to a game that is already released or far along the dev cycle.
Just makes me chuckle that someone actually needed an explaination why kickstarter is different from pre-order ;d Nice to hear your thoughts as always Mr.Biscuit.
TB you should do more debating videos,it's interesting and everyone likes to hear your thoughts too.
You often get things through a donation. Anything from a Poppy on memorial day, to a wing being named after you in a hospital.
There is a pretty substantial difference between the two actually as TB said.. One you're essentially acting as an investor with some added incentives for something that doesn't even exist yet and has a chance it could fail to even make launch, while the other is buying a product that is for all intents and purposes done and dusted. In essense the difference is the risk involved and if you go in thinking of kickstarter as a pre-order service you're asking for potential disapointment.
from what i know it only happens on titles with MP or always on DRM since the servers can only support so many people
point is its better to buy later then pre-order since you still get the same thing just with more info on it, if you don't kickstart something it might not come out. both are a risk except you get almost nothing if you pre-order anyway
That's a big difference. A preorder is for a game that is going to be release whether or not you pay for it beforehand. A kickstarter is given to a game that may very well not be released if it doesn't meet a donation level.
He's saying that kickstarting is risky but it has a reward(a game that might not be made and that you want it to) but that preordering has no rewards(maybe some kind of small sale price or a digital item) but carries a huge risk as most negative reviews are after release.
That's why I put "investment" in quotations. You know exactly what I'm saying: You're gambling with your money when you pay for a game that hasn't yet been released and therefore hasn't yet been reviewed or evaluated by anyone. For all you know, it could not only live up to expectations but also be incredibly buggy/unstable.
I agree with you about kick starter. I kick started Wasteland 2 and only because it has a reputable developing team. They send out newsletters to keep us up on how the game is coming along and if they're on time and if they're having problems.
I like how you both pay attention to the video.
I hard coded it. I did not use one of those products designed to make programing a game easier. Its all in Java (I know easiest langauge), and I still want to work on it more, to include an item system and equipment system and a looting system.
Neither of those options are funding the game's development though. The poster i was replying to said a kick start can cost $100,000 to make a game but a pre-order can cost $1 to make a game. Basically he compared the price of CREATING AN ENTIRE GAME to the price of a customer pre-ordering a game.
That's assuming he has a high-powered PC. That also assumes he wants to use Steam in the first place.
Also love your vids man! :) very informative and as always very funny! Keep up the Starcraft live streams...haven't seen one in a while.
I was under the impression that Steam must buy digital "keys" from the pubs in order to list the games for sale. On the basis that they could fudge their own records and pocket profits if they did not do that. So there can be a delay in availability, though that rarely happens considering the process is likely entirely digital.
When a game is discounted, Valve gets less too. So if a game is 49.99 $, Valve gets 30% off that and if a game is discounted to 7.5 $, Valve gets 30% off 7.5. And also, it does seem a lot but before DD a big cut was going to retail stores and shipping, etc...
Interesting way to phrase it. I would have said it's based on the idea that the more informed you are as a consumer, the better, and that pre-ordering is usually an emotional response stemming from brand loyalty, fanboyism and successful marketing.
Kickstarters, are supposed to be risky. You're donating money to a game in the development stage. But when you make an actual purchase, the smart consumer makes sure his risk is as close to zero as possible.
The more transparent you are with your projects, the more people will be satisfied that they are making a good decision by providing you with the funds you are being honest with them in how you are using them.
Totally respect your opinion; I only ever pre-order games I 100% know I'd get anyway (GTA V, AC IV, Saints Row IV, Destiny, etc) and I totally respect your opinion. Keep on making your amazing videos, TB!
Games on Kickstarter these times must show ingame videos. It is really difference when you see two artwork or just talking devs and on the other side good impressive actual ingame footage.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance reach in two days their goal, RPG, fantastic ingame trailer, devs atd...
www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance
And look at Unsung Story now, RPG, just talking devs, slow pledge process(still good).
www.kickstarter.com/projects/482445197/unsung-story-tale-of-the-guardians?ref=discovery
ATLUS games are known for 'limited' runs all in all, and they can run out within 2 weeks easily. Though there are other limited runs as well.*where the store just doesn't have any ability to do anything about it
So because there is a special case showing demand for a certain game that showed heavy interest in 'hard' or 'unforgiving' games on the PC,*which btw has spawned loads of games because it was shown the interest is there*it should be thrown out because it doesn't fit your model of things
The thing is with stretch goals for games Tom Raider is that the content is most probably made already with the intention of releasing it if the stretch goal has been passed. In fact, if this was true, it is more a scummy tactic to get more guaranteed sales than spare change because they are holding back finished content.
not exactly surprised... it was exactly the same as on 360 i mean they didn't even bother changing the buttons or testing/optimizing it. guy made a patch for it to allow it to run on more then 720p in less then 24h from what i remember, also hardly an excuse since they did get paid full price for it.
Could you maybe start a show recommending video game Kickstarter progects? Or add that to the Content Patch?
Mixed honestly, but when it came down to it, it also shows steam there is support there as well. There is more then 1 company that needs to be shown there is interest. What other better what to pre-order a game that's genre hasn't gotten enough official backing for steam to pick It up more often then once and a while as an odd indie project. *There is enough issues with Greenlight as is*
Oh, there's another aspect of "fail" here - if the project gets funded but not actually manages to produce it's supposed product. Sorry about my confusion about that.
Sure kickstarter can be good juju or karma, but all in all, pre-orders can give you bonuses as well *nothing close to what a kickstarter can*, but at the end of the day your only paying retail price not donating 100$+ for one title for some crazy level perk *which is fine if you can do that*
Though the benefits to a pre-order can be there for those who use it as it was intended to be or just don't want to bother risking if they'll have the spare money, & can be used to coverup a gift 4 a gamer.
you are truly youtube's #1 game critic. nice video.
The few things I have to see before I even consider about backing something on kickstarter are: 1. Demo (or super in depth about the game like what Armikrog did, or a trailer for the game that contains actual gameplay and/or cutscenes to know the people are serious). 2. Breakdown in pricing. 3. The companies reputation
I do disagree with one of the preorder things though. With console games usually preordering games costs just as much as new AND it shows how many games a store might order...
Exactly right. TB constantly repeats the 'buyer beware, only if you really want to see the project succeed!'
Eg: look at the kickstarter project for the smartphone called the Ubuntu Edge, with a 720p display (so 2011), 128gb storage, and 4GB of RAM, that dual boots ubuntu desktop and Android...and the minimum you must currently contribute is $775.
Crazy thing is: if they don't get 32million dollars in a month nobody gets the phone.
People have raised 7mill so far...it's extreme buyer beware.
When you donate money to a kickstarter, there is an understand that whatever project you funded might not get off the ground. Most of the gifts they offer are obviously conditional on the release of the game.
You'll actually find that a lot of donation platforms offer gift based incentives to entice people to pledge money. Getting a poppy for giving money to the VFW, getting a new annex named after you for giving money to a hospital and everything in between.
with tomb raider it wasn't stretch goals it was just them giving more bonuses for pre-ordering if a certain amount of pre-orders is made
These copies are then NON-RETURNABLE copies purchased by the Corporation. That means the Dev (Or Publisher) who makes that benchmark has just sold extra copies which won't be returned via the warehouse due to their pre-order deal with the retailers.
The games which have huge Pre-Orders are given special attention by reviewers and extra promotion, that's money in the pocket via advertising.
This is similar to a "Bestseller List" and how it operates for books.
I never pre order because i know in a few weeks it will go on sale for around 30% off
and i only kickstart things i deeply want to see be a thing (which is mot likely what TB will say)
Could a class action lawsuit against a Kickstarter Project allow for the suit to win rights to the projects source code or current holdings? If you could release this to the open source market then perhaps you could get the game onto the market in the end...
I pre-order because I know I wont have all the money when the game comes out, and with a pre-order I can pay over time if I have money. I only pre-order game I want to play and I know will be good.
TB, Im really confused as to Cameron's proposition to block certain information on the internet, "On-by-default UK internet filters will block content relating to alcohol, smoking, web forums, "esoteric material," and web blocking circumvention tools". I believe this could be a slippery slope and as we have experienced in the past, restricting the use of the internet by the public has never been viewed as a good thing. Although this has little to do with gaming I would like to hear your thoughts
A guy I know is from Denmark (Taastrup near Copenhagen), and he just told me (literally 5 minutes ago) that if you can't buy a 500$ PC that does the same as consoles at the moment you're doing something really wrong. Sure you won't be able to buy a pc that outruns the nextgen consoles for that money, but they also haven't been released yet, and neither have games for it, and if you get a 500$ pc now and upgrade it for half that a few months after nextgen releases you'll be able to play np
The thing is most kickstarter donators were desillusioned by all the promised stuff. For Example the Ouya which dissappointed the most because they thought of ps3 graphics and got a smartphone for tv and there were more blunders like this and now nobody wants to back something cause you would never donate for something when you think that your item will become mediocre at least
I think the desire to do logical leaps and gymnastics is perfectly fine and noble.. It's also what was known in a by-gone age as intellectual discussions. A discipline TB should appreciate, being the gentleman he undoubtedly is.
@ etheldir my point is that people's problems with pre-orders blossomed from the whole alien colonial marines fiasco which (most will say) was not what they expected. As TB stated, you've no guarantee the kickstarter will A. Even be built to completion or B. Be any good at all. Both marketing schemes are not giving you enough information to truly determine if a game is a good fit for you and is a gamble in *both* instances.
i dont have that sort of mind set but if there is a idea that blows my mind i will back it in hope it will be made
You are a very intelligent youtuber. I really do enjoy listening to your opinion on all sorts of gaming matters. Pleasure to be a subscriber to you.
Do you have a source some where that says more the pre-order money go towards the actual game? It's possible pre-orders as a incentive for publisher to possibly fund it more, but where does it say that some of that money funds the game? I can see this for some indie games if they are self-published but that seems niche meaning to say all pre-orders funds games.
I certainly agree that Kickstarter and pre ordering are not entirely mutual. But surely stretch goals ARE.
Stretch goals are there to line the developers pocket with spare change prior to release, so that they may add things to their game. But pre orders do the exact same thing. We've seen stretch goals for pre ordering certain games like Tomb Raider.
Personally I wouldn't take the chance on kickstarter, but if I did, I wouldn't back a project once it's initial goal was reached.
now you've got me playing FTL again, thanks TB. lol.
but i like your videos like this. always good to be informed
full price of 40$ USD... that came with additional content as well *ontop of the console versions* & that Day 1 patch, as with a few others are impressive, but unstable to this day because of the methods used.
The game was completely playable even w/o the patch, & even if you use a PS3 controller with your PC, it's dead easy to trick programs to think it's a 360 pad, & it works better then one as well.
Also no one expected it to be optimized for KB&M, even though some people can play it like dat
If you don't have consistent cash flow, you should just save the money. Is it so hard to just hold on to a bit of cash until the game is released?
No, the money is pledged, not removed from your account until the project actually ends successfully. When Forge failed no money was drawn from my account and instead they offered another support option for pledges.
As usual TB hit the nail right on the head. People are treating Kickstarter as a store. If you want a store, wait for the game to actually come out then preorder or buy it. Kickstarter isn't a preorder store service. It's you donating money for a project. They promise you stuff, usually the game itself, in return for doing that, but if the project flops, you most likely won't get that investment back.
You don't automatically get the game by backing it up. For that you need to back a certain amout of money, defined by the pledger.
course, but it secures a copy for you so you don't have to worry about people who show up @ store opening & buy out the game that's in limited run anyways *& your lucky to see the run last 2 weeks* IT's not all about putting the money aside, Pre-orders started out to ensure that X person gets the game they wanted, and doesn't have to fight the crazy opening crowds or do stupid shit to get their game.
Kind of off-topic but are you planning on doing an early look ( maybe Alpha-strike ) on Lost Planet 3? The steam preorder is up but there is barely a trailer there and no gameplay footage so far... kind of makes me think.
Concrete information about the game from the developer, like descriptions of the game and genre, as I've said. This information tends to go much further and even provides the basis of reviews of the game when reviews are available.
the point is that once you make up your mind most people try to look for reasons as to why they are in fact correct rather then actual criticism so they end up looking at/believing the better reviews.
the 2 action have wildly varying consequences and in fact are in essence different...
kickstarter is pledging money to a game you want to come out to help with its development
pre-ordering is paying money for a game you only have biased matirial of so you can a small discount/in game bonus.
problem is you treat them as the same thing
My question to you TotalBiscuit, is do you think pre ordering can be beneficial to the consumer is it ever okay to pre order game.
I myself pre ordered Rise of the Tried, I a video of you playing it at PAX and the pre order offered not only a discount but also 3 free games. It was also only $15 which I thought was reasonable.
My point is that it's not impossible, & even though it's far easier to 'restock' digital keys then it is to print more discs, doesn't mean it can't happen.
seems to me that the idea is that if you pre-order something you are buying something sight unseen that you can wait and see what its like.
if you are pledging on kick starter you are buying something sight unseen form something that will not exist to be seen later if you don't kick it.
So, kicking is okay because you finance a product while pre-ordering is bad because you finance marketing.
Marketing bad, products good. hence preorder bad, kicking good.
That isn't necessarily true about pre-orders. Many times it is difficult to fund the development of games between releases and pre-orders are a way of making it over that gap to the next release while still having some form of pay.
very well then in about 1% of games its worth pre-ordering as they might run out of keys... that's more or less what we're arguing about atm. also its not an excuse your point was that it was worth pre-ordering as the game might run out of stock, i was just saying that in almost all cases digital copies never run out
I think ultimately, it doesn't matter how you decide to purchase your games. Preference and methods to determine if you'd like that game doesn't really matter.
What matters is that you purchase a game that WORKS.
I dont need people to tell me if a game is good or not before I buy it. The last game i bought after preordering was The Last of Us, it was not a mistake. its nothing like mailing a cheque. it only requires you to pay £5 to reserve the game, thats it. even if you decide when the time comes not to buy it then you are only out £5, big woop. and if you do buy it then you are only paying the normal price anyway. its exactly the same as if you went straight to the store and bought it on launch
Wait, so why does Totalbuiscuit support starbound if they made a "kickstarter" (on humble bundle) without a proper demo?
Fair enough, I see your point.
Personally I don't pre-order, but I do think pre-ordering is a perfectly good way to purchase a game. If you're excited for it and you want to play the latest games ASAP ain't nothing wrong with reserving a copy that'll come with extra bits & bobs.
A Colonial Marines pre-order situation happens so rarely, you can't completely dismiss an entire purchasing practice because of a few bad apples. Heck, at least people got to experience that awful game.
TB, what is your position on the whole Planetary Annihilation debate about their Steam Early Access pricing being the same (very high) price as their Kickstarter tier promising early access? It felt like it should have been in this video as it touches on just that difference between Kickstarter and a regular early purchase (even though in this case it is not a pre-purchase in the same sense).
there was that project annihilation with the frostbite 4 engine on kick starter and it got taken off :C
difference is if you don't pre-order the game still comes out exactly the same as if you would and you can just buy it after launch when you have more info. on the other hand if you don't pledge to kickstarter the game might never come out. you over simplified it and didn't take into account that if people don't kickstart then the game is likely never to come out so there's actually a point to kickstarting even if its a risk since there's a reword as well