Problem With Peco Points At The Frogs ** Solved **
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- As progression of switching the layout from DC to DCC at Barnabas Junction continues, a few problems had been occurring with shorting on the frogs of Peco points positioned around the layout as various locomotives passed over them.
Here i explain in simple terms how I rectified the problem, cheaply and effectively.
This solution works for Insulfrog points but Electrofrogs points must have this applied when first installed.
Thanks for watching.
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I've encountered the same problem with not only locos, but also with rolling stock with metal wheels. My solution was clear nail polish. I would like to say that the problem is not the turnout (points as you say across the pond ) but rather the wheels. Let me explain. The tread on a full size railroad wheel is cone shaped. the diameter is larger next to the flange the the outside of the wheel. The wheels of our models have a flat cross section instead of the cone or tapered cross section. If the models wheels were machined like the full sized ones, they would never come in contact with the other rail to short out. The problem is a result of that, not poor design of the turnout (points). To compound the problem the tread of model wheels are also much wider. Any new Peco turnouts I purchase will be the electrofrog ones and use insulated rail joiners on the frog rails. Thanks for a very well explained video on these turnous (points). Ken
Thank you for your comment.
Hi, a very good explanation of the problem, but towards the end you mention the problem of track already laid. I used to have that as well but for the last few years (decades) I have glued my track down using PVA (the white stuff). It dries quickly and is clear when dried, the best feature is that if you want to change anything just paint the existing track with water along the sleepers, wait 10 minutess and you can just lift the track, makes revision/corrections/changes of mind/etc. or whatever very simple. Lindsay in NZ
Lindsay McIsaac What an excellent solution 👏 many thanks for that tip.
Looks like I've got a load of insulfrog points to convert to electrofrog! Thanks for drawing my attention to this problem. (I've just converted from 'O' gauge to 'OO' and didn't realise that there was a problem with insulfrog points which vertually no one uses in 'O' gauge).
Thank you for your comment.
Thanks for a very informative look at this problem....I'm sure many have encountered this frequently...
I had this problem and was really nagging me as it only happened with some of the locomotives. Took longer than it should before I searched a cause on the net and found this video. So many many thanks 👍 Most of my track was Hornby but enjoy PECO express joints where possible. I prefer the nail varnish solution, I make it as a routine monthly inspection when cleaning track.
Glad this video helped, thank you for commenting.
Very interesting and helpful, thank you. I am in the process of changing some of my insulfrog points for electrofrog. Very fiddly fitting the insulated joiners and I had remove a bit of sleeper in some cases to get them to go on fully. I am hoping for much smoother operation when finished.
Glad it was helpful!
just stumbled head first onto this video and has solved a nagging problem i have had with a set of points in the depot... so although you posted this years ago, it still has solved an issue today... cheers Neil
Always a pleasure to hear I have helped out a fellow modeller ☺
This is very informative!! Thank you for this video. I have a layout and all the switches are Pecos, I have never yet had a problem with any of them relating to shorts as you described!! (I'm counting my blessings as I type LOL) I'm glad that I watched this to learn what you have gone through and how you solved the problem. Again, thank you for the video and passing this vital information along to other modelers and glad that I have subscribed to your channel, CHEERS!! D. Muse WTCMRR
Thank you for your comment.
I had the very same problem. Since my track was already glued down and ballasted, installing insulated rail joiners was not a good option. I used clear Scotch tape instead of nail polish. I used just enough to cover about 1/4 inch of rail and then trimmed it with a razor blade and it is not noticeable and works fine. just make sure to clean the track with alcohol and dry so the tape will stick well.
Thank you for your comment.
Thank you for bringing up an interesting issue with these great quality turnouts. From what you're showing here can a person extend the length of the frog 2 or 3 mm by carefully grinding down the rails with a Dremel cutoff wheel and filling in the cavity with epoxy.
Your very welcome, that could be a good possibilty for a fix.
Phew hard work watching. VERY slow & drawn out wittering.
Thank you for your comment.
I have had the same problem with Peco points and Peco diamond crossings. I used a very thin strip of adhesive paper across the rails you mentioned. Solved it. I did used to find that the Hornby locos and rolling stock did seem to foul short on these areas. I think they have a wider flange on the wheels? Peco really do need to re-design their points to accommodate this issue.
Thank you for your comment.
Hello, I work in DCC on my trains and I have insulfrog SL 95/96. But your solution with the insulated jointed rails only works if the switch is alone on the track. In the case where I have the switches coupled together in order to make a double detour from track 1 to track 2 which is parallel with a return from track 2 to track 1, which gives four switch systems running together, in France, in railway jargon, we call it a "policeman's hat" (Napoleon III period). If I proceed with the assembly as you suggest, there will inevitably be a central part of the assembly that will no longer be powered. Which unfortunately leaves my problem unsolved. I regret having made this purchase because the extremitys of the + and - rails are too close to the frog and the wheel at low speed can touch the other rail very close and inevitably cause the short-circuit. I'll have to start all over again with other turnouts that let the current flow everywhere without short-circuit. 🤔🤷♂
Keep us updated with progress
@@BarnabasJunction I think about Roco, very good also ...
Many thanks . Explains the "mystery" problem I have where occasionally a loco stops on the point,alll the whistles on all locos blow then the loco starts up again. Will try the plastic connectors.
Thank you for your comment.
Bit of black paint sorted mine out great video thank you :)
Thank you for your comment.
Yes agreed it is a massively frustrating problem.
Appreciate your idea. But it leaves a dead area beyond the rail break.
I also get a short some times; with wheel sets that slide (loco tenders etc) on the opposite side. ie the moving rail at the hinge! So I have stick with the nail varnish or thin smear of Supa-glue. Careful.
The other method I have used. Is too grind the 'proximity' back slightly, at an angle! Works up to a point!?
At the moment, I find the temporary fix of nail varnish fine. Up till we get the inevitable short again 😠
So frustrating.
I hate to say it , but this is not a reliable solution at all ... the problem is , in a nutshell, is rails too CLOSE, metal wheels too WIDE. A very thin Dremel abrasive cutting disc used between the converging rails at the point where they are too close together will PERMANENTLY solve the problem . As you can see, it is the OUTSIDE of the two rails that are too close to one another. Use the thin disc on your Dremel to WIDEN the GAP between the rails. Unless you have abnormally WIDE WHEELS, you should be able to stop the shorting, and not affect the performance of the points in any way (NO dead spots!) You don't need to cut TOO DEEP with the disc! Just the TOP, OUTSIDE edges of the converging rails. You want to try to maintain the integrity of the INSIDE EDGE of rails to avoid BUMPS ...If you're at all competent with a Dremel, you should easily create a gap between the rails wide enough to prevent shorts! In a pinch, I have also used a small triangular FILE to accomplish the same result. Much more difficult than the Dremel!
wobblinwheel thanks very much. Can you show us a youtube, even a till picture pointing to exactly where you mean. I have just fitted EB1 circuit breakers to my dcc layout and two points are contstant withtwo trains shorting.
@@richardray6827 Sometime in the near future, I am going to try to upload a short video on my channel explaining where the "close" spots are. Technically, this is similar to putting nail polish (or paint or tape) on the rails that are too close. Unfortunately, that method is temporary and can cause "dead spots" for some locos. My method basically cuts away the outside edge of the converging rail so the metal wheels don't short the inside rail to the outside rail at the frog. Bear in mind, if you still have problems with certain locos or rolling stock, you MUST check back-to-back wheel spacing!
Thank you for your comment.
Thanks Jason after our conversation Sunday I've just watched this video so I'm going to give this a solution a try and let you know if it works 😉
Did it work?
Nice selection of points, I think its a good idea to isolate at points as a matter of course even if using insulfrog. Could help in the long term if you wanted to do block detection and automatic singling.
Dundee Road absolutely correct, as the layout was initially analogue (DC) it wasn't thought about and didn't matter but for anyone building a DCC layout from scratch it is highly recommend to fit Peco SL-11 insulated rail joiners from the very beginning.
Hello This is very good advice. I have the very same problem. However, if you isolate that track section, how does the train still travel along when the power is cut. I am actually waiting for my insulating fishplates to arrive. Oh and I have Hornby points, not Peco
You have to add a dropper directly to the isolated section of track
Hello. Forgive me, what is a Dropper.
very interesting and informative..a great video on the subject! cheers dave
davestrains Thanks Dave, tried to make it as clear & simple as possible 🤗
Very well explained .......Peter
Peter Shaw Thanks Peter. I tried to keep the explanation as clear & simple as possible 🤗
The problem seems to be an added reason to go with electro-frogs when you are at the beginning of a project. I understand you are changing an existing layout and it is not feasible to change all the points. I would expect problems with short locos making it across the switch?
Thank you for your comment.
I have used a Fluke on one of my Double slips which is insulfrog.
All rails which are positive are all positive, all the rails which are negative are negative, no matter what position the point is set to. I used a FLuke on ohms and connected one end to a positive rail and checked all the rails which would be positive and they all gave conductive readings, I repeated this test with the negative and they were all negative,
At no time when switching the points did the polarity change, and at no time did any of the rails become insulated.
My Points are over 20 years old and are Peco 100
By putting insulators on the rails ends does not stop the rails at the frog being live and negative respectively as the rails are live from within the point itself.
My other insulfrog points also gave exactly the same result.
If your insulfrog points are switching on and off when the point is changed then I can only assume that Peco design has changed.
Sam Barr hhhmmmm, right then, single/double slips are definitely a different matter, what I displayed was basic points,. I haven't had much dealing with slips really so cannot really comment how they are electrified.
it is a very big possibility that peco point design may well have been modified over the years, maybe making better but maybe worse.
With that in mind it is a situation of this video being about current day points/turnouts.
Thanks for letting me know about your points, I may have to do some additional research now and discuss in upcoming video👍
Ive tested 2 different rad std turnouts and they are the same as I stated.
I maybe over reacted when I saw your video, but how many times nowadays do we see advertisements that are not absolutely true. I think Ive jumped the gun slightly in this case and sorry if I offended you, at least you were man enough to reply and state your case.
You are so very welcome and thank you too.
I appreciate all comments regardless, gladly accepting where/if errors are made and do my best to correct where necessary.
It would seem in this case we could quite possibly be both correct in our ways, i will take note of your workings for future reference.
Again I thank you.
Sorry mate I am eating humble pie. I have gone back and tested my points again and can only find 1 left hand point which is wired as I said, I was sure I had checked 2 before.
Anyway I have re-laid the other one and so won't be able to find it. I still have 4 Double slips which haven't been re-laid yet and they are all exactly the same which is as I said earlier.
I have 2 other not re-laid insulfrog points and they are both as you have stated.
I have tested a short crossing and only the rail which exits is conducted with the rail that enters on all 4 rails.
Because I was of the understanding that all rails were live on the insulfrog points, when I re-laid them I didn't bother using insulated joiners. But before I had to take up all the track I never had any running problems whatsoever but then I was using DC. I am converting to DCC so will see how that turns out.
I had the same problem with my points a few months ago, I have replaced them with electrofrog points now. But for a while when the problem started I cut some clear plastic printing sheets and glued them over the frogs.
Thank you for your comment.
I had a double crossover peco point that I failed to wire and insulate correctly and shorted out my little shunter l use to make sure everything runs fine. I eventually fixed the problem but my shunter now sits in a dead line, gathering fake dust!
Not trying to be a downer here, but this video doesn't explain how the fix is working and in most cases isn't. Basically it depends on where your wire feeders are located and if there are insulated blocks or what not. The frog would still short, because there are tiny jumper wires underneath the frog, feeding power across the insulated frog. You would have to cut those wires to insulate the frog. If you do as the video says you are only stopping current flow to the frog from exit end.. If you do snip the tiny jumper wires you are creating a very long insulated frog to the plastic rail joint which is not good. I saw another fix for this, It was done by filing or grinding the outer rail surface at a slight angle just in the tight part of the V, where it would short so the wheel could not bridge the small gap and make contact. The use of nail polish or any other insulating paint would eliminate wheel cross over contact as well. Also remember the switch point on the entry side is making contact through the side of the rail and when a metal wheel or locomotive's entire set of wheels on one side acts like a rolling jumper wire on top of the rail.
Thank you for your comment.
Hello, I know about it, Peco Turnouts are too tight.
Hi just a question, are you getting dead points and stalling on the frogs now? I am having the same problems on Peco crossovers. I have used insulated joiners but now have stalling. cheers Gavin
Rail150 Hi, I have absolutely no issues anymore, no stalling or dead points as power is maintained by the switch rail.
I recommend you check your connection between the switch rail and main rails, if this is poor you will get stalling etc. A good clean with Track Magic can also be a big help.
As for crossovers, I do not currently have any in use on the layout but do have some in storage so will look into this and hopefully have a mention in a future video.
Hi, just watched your video as i have the same problem, the method i would like to try is cutting the point with a dremel, (points are down & ballasted so cannot fit insulated joiners). If i do cut the point would it not cause isolation problems. If you cut a piece of normal track in this way it isolates the track, or do points work differently!
i have actually tried cutting it at the fishplate but then frog went dead as it relied on the point switch blade which was not good
The power routing on my curves points fails a lot. Is there a solution? Thanks.
If you add a dropper from each off the switch blades that should help.
You really do want to take the time to add polarity switches of some sort to power the blades and frogs of the points before laying them down. The Peco ones aren't that expensive and ensure a constant supply of power to the points. It's a very simple process of adding a couple of dropper wires to a switch.
I've made the fatal mistake of not bothering with an N gauge layout and now have to spend around a hour before running any trains, cleaning my points to get good contact between the rail and blades. Dust gets between them and cuts the power - effectively killing the point. Lesson learned. Never again!
Thank you for your comment.
Does this not cause more dead spots on the points ?
Thank you for your comment.
What was "the problem"? Lots of mention, but no statement of what it is!
Thank you for your comment.
I wish he would get to the point. No pun intended.
LOL 🤣
Some of my dcc locos stall on Peco points
Thank you for your comment.
Hi Peter, I'm just building a new layout with Peco points (DCC) and saw this. I have bought the insulfrog points and was going to use electroclips so all directions of travel remain live when the points are changed, how will this affect this frog problem? Cheers, Andy.
Andy Heath the point shown in the video are insulfrog so just follow the information given.
Will do but my point is if using electroclips does it defeat the fix?
Andy Heath yes it would, PECO need to address this issue
So the temporary nail varnish would be better in my case? Does the varnish just go on the side of the rail at the point you showed on the video?
Andy Heath yes, just coat the rail top around the frog, it will only last a few days per coating depending on how often trains are run over it.
Hi to All. Is there any one out there that can help me with a problem I'm having with my Peco
code 80 turn out motors. The problem I'm having is that I have set up my motors with the
switch you glue to the bottom of the motor that controls the dwarf lights. When I hook the motor up to my transformer's ac side it works just fine. How ever when I attach the turn out
track to the motor it does not work at all. I discovered that if I take out the little spring that
holds the points in place it goes back to working just fine. ( I only did this to one track).
My AC volts is 20 and I have checked it with my volt ohm meter and it is putting out the advertised voltage.
Either I'm doing something wrong or maybe there is something else I can do to get them to work with out removing the spring. i like the Peco turn outs because that spring does a good
job of holding the points in place. Peco turnouts are very robust compared to atlas as an example. Thank you
You have too much load for the solenoid to throw. Either adjust the over centre spring to a lighter setting, or fit a capacitor discharge unit, which gives the solenoids a bigger 'kick'. The voltage alone is not enough, you need the voltage plus enough amps to overcome the drag from the points and the added switch.
Thank you for your comment.
This is wrong because both rails on the frog will still be opposite polarity. Insulated joiners only stops voltage from an adjoining rail and doesn't stop voltage from within the point itself transferring from the other end. With insulfrog points all rails are live within the point.
Sam Bar it is correct, very sorry you are wrong. Insulfrog point frog rails only become live in the direction the point is switched to when insulated rail joiners are used. Underneath there is a small wire that runs from the switch blade to frog rail, power only travel to the frog rail when the switch blade is touching the corresponding main rails.
What you are trying to say is for electrofrog points.
what scale you use?
code 100
In dcc there is no positive and negative. It is AC electrics which means the current in each rail constantly switches between positive and negative
Wrong, you still have to have a red/ black (or whatever color you want) feed that has to be standard over the whole layout..
@@Ausjon61 your right to some extent.
There is no difference in the way a live frog peco point should be wired for either DCC or DC.
At any given instant in time you can argue correctly that
You have dc across the rails
We know, it is used to aid a clearer referance. Thank you for your comment.
Very good, BUT this is nothing new, and both Peco and Hornby instructions detail how to fit and wire these up properly with DC & DCC. Insulated rail joiners at the frog rail were always on the instructions from both suppliers when using DCC. To switch polarity of the frog on DC, you use the PL13 on/on switch added to the base of the point motor. All very simple, I'm afraid!!
Thank you for your comment.
Traduction francais
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