I am stuck in a learning loop😭! Outside ok the joke, learning outside of the citadel course open to new horizon (not spiting on citadel ways of learning, it helps beginners a lot)
I came to the conclusion many years ago I do not have the artistic talent to paint award winning or display miniatures, and that's fine. The citadel method gets me great looking warhammer armies and battletech lances for me to play with and I'm really happy with that.
Which is exactly what most people need to be doing most of the time. Unless you are painting a special mini for a specific reason (competition, display, hero mini, etc...), just get it painted and move on to the next one.
I am also not of high artistic talent, but the citadel method gets me a consistent, good looking models to play games with. Will they win awards? No, but they look good at wargaming distances, cohesive, and and don't take forever to paint. I think the citadel method is one thing that allows technician personalities to paint to a good standard, where not following it is what artist personalities do. Or, to put it a different way, the difference between a chef and a baker. The baker follows a process, and gets consistent, good results. The Chef cooks with feeling, and can have wildly different results.
But here's the thing, and its not really fully articulated in this vid: even for "tabletop-standard", the citadel method is far from the most efficient. Having to highlight *everything* + having redundant extra steps (i.e. rebasing to highlight up a shade) makes you take more time than you need. Getting smart with undercoats + having less steps helps me paint faster and have a more productive time
This is not just one of Rogue’s best videos but one of the most honest and helpful videos about painting on UA-cam. Demystifying the process and the differences between styles and their limits is perfect. Thank you!
100%. We created the ‘System’ for beginners and intermediates to get results they were happy with. It’s only really a set of tools that anyone can adapt to their needs and there are a lot of really great tools and techniques from other companies and creators to play with and have fun with.
I never played Warhammer growing up - but I played a lot of classic Battle Tech and even in that the process was PRIME - BASE - WASH - DRYBRUSH (Highlight) - I'm not sure where we got it from, but that same paint system carried over across the entire landscape of mini painting in the mid-90's. Honestly, that's still what I'm doing except after all that there may be a series of blending, highlighting and washing to get the desired effect. Hasn't done me wrong in about 30 years and I'm a little better now than I was at 12...
If you are using the Citadel system to paint intermediate level miniatures, you are getting scammed. If you only want tabletop level, buy primers and use slapchop. Why? It's faster, cheaper, and overall... Just better.
@@zackredgarz3690slapchop came along much later than the citadel system. Largely as a result of contrast which was launched years after the current main citadel range. Contrast was intended to get painting done faster and we knew that it was a just a tool that people would take and adapt to other uses 😊 seems to have worked.
@@zackredgarz3690 That's some flawed logic. You sound like the guy who talks crap on people at the game store for what their minis look like, then wonder why no one wants to play with you,
@@mimas120 Don't be mad, everyone knows Citadel only wants to sell 3 paints minimum for each colour to beginners... And is not worth or even fair to new people. Slapchop is faster and friendly to people without experience so better than base, shade, layering, dry and all plehora of paint ranges. The rest of your comment is just a very sad ad hominem.
Richard Gray was the first one to push me out of my citadel approved bubble with his wet glazing/stabbing style. Few months ago I heard you mention that it feels so weird to go back over parts after applying a wash. That is basically when I stopped using washes for the "all over" method, and only applying them on details, or combining them into effects or mixing with contrasts/speed paints. This almost by itself pushed me suddenly to think about volumes and lighting, and after these few months I see a definite improvement (in my humble minipainter opinion). Keep cracking those molds and kicking open the doors Louise!
As someone who only in the last hour has finished my first miniature, this video is so inspiring and useful for how I can further develop my painting, as while I'm reasonably happy with how it is, I feel like the shading and lack of gradual shading, by not having blending is what is holding it back.
I'm a big fan of the old Kevin Adams space orks and the more colourful ork feels more reminiscent of those, so I definitely like that look. One trick I've been using is to drybrush over a contrasting colour to give the effect of rust of weathering. For instance you can drybrush metal colours over a brown or orange base to get a good rusty metal effect.
Man I wish this video was around when I first got back into the hobby! I spent a LOT of time trying to find anyone that was demonstrating the difference between like Showcase/Grimdark vs "I can clearly see that unit from where I'm standing and so can my opponent". In the last year and a half, this is the closest thing to that video; Alex @52Miniatures did a really nice job also. What I've found experimentally is that the quality of the paint job *can* make an impact, but primarily the saturation and contrast (both in color and value) are what will draw your eye the most.
The citadel system worked great for a one size fits all but also in an age where people didn't have access to the vast amount of resources we do today. I've come back to the hobby after 25ish years away and honestly don't remember how I did way back when, but I've kind of learned from all over since coming back and its been interesting. Loved the video as always, only downside was I didn't care for the few references in the beginning of looking at golden demon and then looking at your own work; there is no reason for that to be something people do unless you are also entering contests, and I was surprised to see it mentioned a few times.
Personally, I'm a very slow learner when it comes to painting miniatures, partly because it has always seemed very intimidating but also because I'm self-taught from the 90s. The appeal to me of the Citadel method is it allows for almost a paint-by-numbers method whilst allowing me artistic freedom to explore the model while still getting results I could be proud of. I am in awed admiration of what painters like Louise and Peachy can do, but I know that's still a ways off for someone like myself. But! Videos like this allow me to start experimenting and step up my game ever so slightly each time. So thanks for this!
I took this video to heart when starting painting my new Dwarfs for The Old World and it’s such a freeing and refreshing way to paint. I’m not stressing and the dwarfs are being done fast and look great. Thank you!
@16:28..."In fact often something as simple as a base coat and a small edge highlight looks much better than a base coat, a wash, four layers and three edge highlights..." Solid Gold Advice...Right Here
@@roguehobbies Lol! I can imagine trolling your past self while editing could be a nice bit of entertainment while doing the less-fun part of making videos.
So many amazing things I learned to maybe get out the comfort zone with and all I can think to comment on is how much that manic music cut in for each step title made me grin. I love this channel's "frantic, silly gremlin" energy on its editing. I found that it was Juan Hidalgo I got my first shove outside the comfort zone with, when he showed all the weird and wonderful things contrast paint can do that isn't just a single coat. People see my Tanith's camo cloaks and go "woah! How do I do that?" exactly like how I look at other painters I think are great. But it was him teaching TWO coats of a contrast, then glaze, then use a mixing pot fo contrast and medium and layer to get a gorgeous mud, and then stippling using semi translucent contrast to make it have a see-through to the base camo colour... he's SO good. I really want to try recess shading and that vivid nature now through after seeing this.
Thank you for this video. I’ve been spending 2024 unlearning the citadel method. From not using washes, to mixing my own colors, to even using oil paint instead of acrylics for some projects. It’s been liberating.
Truly inspiring. I got the made to order marauder giant in the mail today, built it and I had until I watched this video no idea how I would take on the painting. But this video really got me thinking about more creative ways of painting this center piece model in a more fun way. Thanks for being great!
Thank you for tackling this subject! As a long time Imperial Fist player I have worked for a long time to find a good and fast and effective way to paint yellow on Space Marines. I've gotten it down to four steps and i think it really adheres to how you described your "less is more" approach. It as nice to see that kind of thinking on miniatures painting being accepted and advocated for.
I find that Contrast-style paints are a great way to do a controlled recess shade. They're very forgiving if you have trouble controlling the brush, as they tend to naturally shrink back into the target recess.
This is a great video. When I started miniature painting in the 80’s there wasn’t really a GW method. Painters all wanted to stand out and be creative. My earliest GW pieces were for display in model shops and I used to lean into more flamboyant colour palettes. The GW method really created loads of similar boring looks and seems more about selling paints now.
If you look at my Orks from a few years back and my orks now there's a huge difference and it's ditching the wash. It's recess shades with burnt sienna, not green, and some pink in the deep recesses around the face, makes for a much more interesting model and they're more fun to paint
You can paint grimdark with some very bright details, like bright pink plasma and ice-blue lenses on space marine armor. Having those OSL details drown out almost all the other color can work really well.
Really glad that I started with model kits (mostly in 1/32nd & 1/35th scale), and modeling railroading a decade before I got into R.P.G's and miniature war gaming. I was also the generation that had to do buy figures from prior war games (Napoleonics, Roman, and others) to have figures for D&D. Granted I liked painting and modifying of these figures to have a character mini (for those combat moments were you all need to know where everyone is). I'm glad that I was building WW2 models & building dioramas, and model railroading, before wargaming because I was learning from the Master model makers for those hobbies. It was a domino effect. Each one I learned at lot from, and that knowledge & those skills carried over.
This method does kind of require a good command of both colour theory, great brush control and command of your paint mixing thinning, it's definitely not beginner or intermediate friendly, it's definitely for someone looking to be a advanced painter. I've painted hundreds of miniatures, with a mix of the citadel method and also grim dark techniques and have gone on to dabble with this approach to skin with some blending and thin layers rather than washes, and it is really really hard to get good results. Like REALLY hard. The presenter sort of sugar coats the difficulty you'll have learning this.
Well said Louise, having all kinds of unusual colour in the shaded areas is a game changer. I like to do a pre paint with an air brush of either a cool colour from above and a warm colour from below, or the other way around. A bit of colour theory knowledge with complementary colors and split complementary colours actually makes this easier. And not as differculty as one might think. Loved the video.
This ranks up there as one of the best mini painting videos I've watched ever. The brighter colors on the 2nd guy look so much better to my colorblind eyes, which need lots of contrast to really appreciate detail. I love seeing stuff painted with brighter colors because of it. When I see stuff painted all dark and washed down and "grimdark" they just look undefined and ugly to me...and I can't differentiate much of the color differences.
I will always respect Duncan, but once I learned about Grimm dark, that was some awesome awesome mind blowing experience, because it brought back a lot of the old stuff from train painting and miniatures for that
i started painting a year ago, and never learned to paint ever, just kinda started. with the tips form this channel and just trying stuff, i now commission work at the local game shop
You know to be totally honest, this video has been super validating towards the way that I've been painting, I haven't been using a lot of the citadel painting method, I just never got into it, though I have been using a number of citadel paints, I just never exactly got it so I've been kind of feeling my way through painting and watching a lot of videos on UA-cam and have roughly stumbled into a painting style that's fairly similar to your second ork you painted, I have a very bright and saturated painting style and have been painting a similar way with the difference being that I start with my shade color paint on most of the model with the shade color then paint a highlight over that which is my midtone and then highlight from there. I've been recently experimenting with blending and undertones so this video has kind of felt very relieving that I'm not going the exact wrong way. So thank you very much for making it!
Thanks. I actually stumbled into that wet blending base coat method trying to paint a demon prince with some "fiery" skin tones. Going from bright yellow in the recesses to darker reds on the round of the muscles. I then discovered I can wet blend different colours into each other by looking at the infinity painting style. And models look much better with more daring shading and blending.
Your videos never fail to get me excited to paint again, which is especially impressive considering I'm 3k into a tyranid army! Motivation to paint more of the same scheme can be hard to come by, but I find your whole outlook towards the hobby (seeking challenges, improvement, or just a new experience) so refreshing.
I started learning to paint with the citadel system but quickly craved a faster method. Thanks for this, there are a lot of great tips that can help me improve both speed and quality in my painting.
I long ago switched out the citadel painting method and using interesting colours is my favourite thing, but this video is still super inspirational! I def feel the bit about keeping some bits simple and not overcomplicating everything. I'm coming back to painting after a semi-break while recovering from a back injury, and i'm having to re-evaluate my painting style, so your pep talk was extremely helpful thanks :)
I was already painting some orruks and was so stoked to see this video and I got to try this method out on my army. This is the first time in a long time where I felt that I actually improved. I think my mind just got blown away. Thanks louise
I really liked this video. So many painters (me included) learned with the GW method and it's great for beginners but there are other ways to paint. The most important things is that by tying something new, we learn and improve much faster
I was a self taught mini painter. There weren't YT tutorials or any friends and peers who painted back when I was learning. A couple of years ago I switched to the Citadel method, and have noticed my models have actually been looking worse, albeit painted faster than I used to. My self learned painting went like this: 1)Black primer. Always black primer 2)Lay down a base coat, taking my time to purposely avoid recesses to leave them with the black showing (this took quite a lot of time) 3)drybrush my highlight color 4)repeat step 2, but with the details. This method did take a lot of time. The only army I got close to finished with this method was my DropZone Commander army. Honestly this video has inspired me to revisit my own self taught method. Maybe I can speed it up with newer knowledge?
Great video Louise! Very interesting to see the ideas on the non-Citadel side of things and I will certainly be testing them out at some point in the future. If I had a critique though, it would be that since the two Orks weren't painted in the same general colours, we didn't really get a fair comparison between the two techniques. I know that you wanted to highlight the ability to do a more brightly coloured miniature, but I feel that this isn't impossible from the Citadel system (side eyes Imperial Fists and other brightly painted armies) so kinda a moot point? And since a lot of folks in our community prefer the grimdark style, they're naturally going to be drawn to that Ork and more inclined to dismiss the other one purely on the grounds of it being bright and colourful, which is a shame since I feel it is the better painted of the two minis.
It's interesting to see painters coming back around to the 'comic book' brightness and boldness of 2nd edition 40k. Many of the early models were simply block colours with black lining and they looked great as gaming pieces. These two orks may be comparable in closeup shots but from a couple of feet the lighter, brighter one will pop so much more.
I know for me recess shading was a big game changer for me. It always kind of bothered me that I would build up a nice color only to mute it down. I started recess shading when I started an AoS army with red in the color scheme. Since adding white doesn’t work I just painted it a very bright red, watered down some darker red paint, and did the recesses. I was surprised how well it worked out and how much time it saved me. Contrast/speed paints are great for recess shading because just by adding water they flow wonderfully.
A really great concise video on the topic! I learned to use most of these techniques and styles from the absolutely superb videos of Vince Venturella, especially avoiding using the shades too much or really almost at all and adding interesting contrasting colours to shadows to really bring the model alive. Vincent's videos are super detailed and these lessons are in many videos, so having some of the most important lessons in one video is very useful.
I like the facial detail on the second Ork. One of the coolest things when looking at an army is the individuality of each model. Highlighting standout areas contributes massively to this.
I've heard you talk about how you need to progress your painting to the next level. From my perspective, you are the next level. I have been doing a lot of painting lately, and im starting to understand what you mean. I have always painted in the warhammer style: base, shade, highlight. It wasn't until I watched your vids that I started to up my game. I started to use a wet pallette and thats when I started to mix and create glazes and understand paint consistency. I've got a long way to go, but its creators like you that help us on our journey. Thanks Louise 😊.
Nice! I really like the second ork. It has more of a free flow look to it. It's pretty rewarding to experiment since it helps one's painting style grow. I painted my whole first two armies without the use of inks/washes. Now I'm using them. I would like to explore the blending method more as I always used variations of the dry brush meathod. Thanks for the video.
I'm definitely of the opinion that the best technique depends on what you want to achieve, sometimes things look better if you strip back all the skill and just so something simple One of my favourite minis is a grimdark robot I did that was just primed brown followed by a heavy gunmetal drybrush, soft bronze drybrush and a dash if nihilakh oxide for character and it came out awesome, took like 10 minutes
I like both, neither look like the way I paint, but they do look like you painted them, you have a very definite style of painting. I love the way everyone paints a little different from each other.
I think that I stated painting before washes were super common. I always did a base plus two or three (or more) highlights. I never liked the all-over-wash effect. :) I appreciate the discussion on the different shading colors for sure.
I kicked the citadel system a while back. Actually it was a guide from the eavy metal painters that started with a mid range paint colour and went to painting in shades and then highlights that pushed my painting further. That with Darren Latham's videos I learned a very different style.
Great advice. I've been painting for 30+ years, before we had UA-cam tutorials. My painting style has changed a lot, and improved significantly. About the only things I have not tried are air brushes and oil paints as washes.
Litteraly watching this as I am experimenting with painting skin without the citadel system and I feel like I can finally paint skin I like, turns out all I had to do was lean into paint mixing to get a result I was happy with.
The newer ork paint job is so good. And it should be a creative medium in which to paint miniatures, I have seen Aeldari with neon paint jobs and they look awesome.
THIS is precisely what I've been doing these past couple of years, unlearning the Citadel system and branching out into different ways of painting. Wish more people could see this too, especially those stuck in their hobby plateaus. Kudos, Louise. Also, very honored you signed our Pilipintados tshirt during Worlds a couple of weeks ago! The Filipino painting community loves your stuff!
You may have already done this somewhere, but a video talking about the color theory of what choices you are making for the shading and highlight colors would be super cool. One of the "boring" things of the Citadel method (and is demonstrated well on this video) is that each area is essentially the same hue from the deepest shadows to the top highlights, just changing value and saturation.
I'd say, it depends on the army. For a more dark-toned army, I'd prefer the GW style (Black Legion Chaos, that or Dark Angels). If I were doing goblins/orks or other vibrant/colorful armies (Bretonnia comes to mind), I'd be more inclined to the second style.
Also, once Contrast Paints hit the scene, it became all contrast all the time, and that bothered me. I've been bucking the way I used to paint for a long time, now, which was more or less a variant of the Citadel Painting System (from Privateer Press), by not relying on washes near as much as I used to. I've been getting into glazing my layers and sometimes I use paints on my palette and sometimes I use inks or even my Citadel washes thinned down drastically. Recess shading seems like something I could use more often to this end, and wet blending, too. I'm also trying my level best to try and paint with brighter colors, and this video was a big help in reminding me of this goal. Wonderful and fun video as always, Miss Louise!
I've heard similar sentiment before as to the use of colour but for some reason seeing that ork (perhaps the casual way you painted him excellently) has inspired to just go for it with some colour. Purple pouches? Yea why not. Thank for the video.
Peachy enters the conversation: "Those look mega! So how I get a squad of ten orcs done in four hours is I move my hands much faster than that while remembering to not dip my brush in my cuppa!" So many ways out there to paint all the things. What a wonderful time to be trying to figure out the painting parts of the hobby. Oh, and I like the second orc more.
For my own models, I used to start with a basecoat without primer of a lighter colour than the desired end result, detailing with brighter colours aswell, and then slathered on Army Painter medium shade dipping varnish, soak up the worst excess with a cotton pad, let dry for a couple of days and done. The main purpose of this speed process is because my combined host and auxiliaries is at ~30'000
I'm so happy that I've reached the conclusion that I will never paint competitively. I'm getting older and my skills aren't getting better, more worsening lol. BUT I'm generally happy with my own paint jobs no matter how quickly it's done, just happy to get them on the table in full color
What an excellent video! I very recently returned to the hobby after more than a decade away, and am trying to settle on a painting approach that I am happy with. This is very reassuring! Also, that rack behind you with the 90s Citadel paint pots is giving me serious flashbacks!
Funny thing is, I started into the hobby kinda backwards. I've been a hobbyist artist all my life and just fairly recently got into mini painting in my 30s. So I already knew how to paint, and then essentially applied that to a new medium. I'm honestly kinda glad I didn't start out with GW's system (I didn't even start out with GW miniatures or GW paints, and I'm also glad about the latter at the very least), because I see so many struggling to break out of the formulaic "recipe" nature of the approach that it teaches, it's not even funny. I see questions like "which paints (meaning exact citadel names) did you use for XYZ?" so much, and it kinda makes me sad because this system is more than anything else designed to push the Citadel brand as a quasi-requirement to paint, because it makes especially newcomers terrified to think outside the box and be comfortable with using just "any medium-ish blue" instead of specifically "Macragge blue" and nothing else. It's such a shame because it really holds people back. But of course, I'm a painter first and player second, and I suppose many people are not. I'm in this hobby because I love to paint and create, and while I do play some occasional games with friends (mostly OPR though, not stock 40k, because it's just superior in every way really), it's neither what drew me to it nor why I still do it.
Adding freehand warpaint and gun detail can be done on the oldschool ork as well if you prefer the traditional skin tone. Only thing I outright don't like is the blue added to the gun metal. Thank you for the very cool and inspiring video!
I'm one of those that has to paint it by the box art, due to my broken brain says that's how its suppose to look. Need to try this myself to step outside the "box", and develop more as a painter.
I've painted in dozens of ways over the years, from following my dads teaching (basically painting within the lines) with Humbrols, to the neat colourful 90's Citadel, through various clean paint efforts of various drybrush, shade, tone, wash, basecoat, black borders, edge highlight, slapchop and zenithal two decades before it was called slapchop and zenithal and so on, wet palette and so on. I've never done airbrush (though I own one). All, bar airbrushing, were included at some point or other in a White Dwarf painting guide because that's really all we had. Can still remember meeting someone painting a blue dragon in a store in 95'ish who was adding layers of highlights to the top of the model that looked like they had added paint, then wiped it off. He revealed, no, he was in fact just watering the paint down and applying extra thin coats to created layered highlights. That pretty much just blew my mind as watering down paints was an alien concept from my Humbrol background. In short: new techniques come along all the time, and trends and habits (and even technology) moves on - so the Citadel guides are great, but they should be taken with the pinch of salt. The same way a young footballer would read a "guide to shooting".
Your alternate miniature here reminds me strongly of what Games Workshop advised for painting in the 90s, apart from the undercoat colour. I've been out of the hobby for a long time so I've never heard of the Citadel Painting System, but it sounds like it's mostly meant to sell a range of branded paints. I like the more saturated look and more defined highlighting and shading of your alternate version, but I guess I would, having grown up on the old paint range and style!
All these years into painting and having started doing commissions, I don't have a set style or system. I adjust constantly, and learn styles and techniques with every mini I've painted. I keep it fun by having endless variety even within uniform armies like Ultramarines.
Like squidmar said you want to focus a lot of detail in the focal point of the minis, so where your eyes draw most attention to put the most effort and details And slowly do less and less as it fades how ever it doesnt mean dont detail just do less I really love your style though you are perfection with the basic style and i wish i had a steady hand for it and good enough brushes
This is a great video. While I broke out of the CPS by going down a more Blanchitsu/Grimdark route with enamels, oil washes and white-spirit, I recognise that’s become a comfort zone all of itself for me. I love the second Ork precisely because going for bright, super-saturated and colourful results is where I need to go next, in order to keep developing as a miniature painter. Thanks Louise!
Although I do prefer the darker looking Ork the addition of the contrasting pinks and reds etc on the brighter one really takes me back to some of the late 80's early 90's Golden Demon entries where things weren't so rigidly locked into certain colour schemes and creative freedom made for a more interesting looking mini. I'm one of those who's not dead set of Orc/Orks and all goblinoids being green. Damn if I don't like to see a bloody good painted yellow skinned goblin.
They both are fantastic paint jobs, though I'm more partial to the second. I love both grimdark/gritty and bright and colorful minis, all depending on the mini/game in question.
I am so glad that the hobby has so many different painting styles and methods, when I started in the 'obby you did your three paints and a base. I don't think either is "better" cos they're both really cool, they're just different!
I can't wait to learn how to unlearn and also relearn all the things!
@@firstylastington6127 I can't wait to unread and then reread this lovely comment, thank u :3
I think I am particularly good at unlearning, learning is hard though!
Now you're learning!
😂😂😂
I am stuck in a learning loop😭!
Outside ok the joke, learning outside of the citadel course open to new horizon (not spiting on citadel ways of learning, it helps beginners a lot)
I came to the conclusion many years ago I do not have the artistic talent to paint award winning or display miniatures, and that's fine. The citadel method gets me great looking warhammer armies and battletech lances for me to play with and I'm really happy with that.
Which is exactly what most people need to be doing most of the time. Unless you are painting a special mini for a specific reason (competition, display, hero mini, etc...), just get it painted and move on to the next one.
Yeah that’s me. I spend all my effort into recreating boxart minis.
I am also not of high artistic talent, but the citadel method gets me a consistent, good looking models to play games with. Will they win awards? No, but they look good at wargaming distances, cohesive, and and don't take forever to paint.
I think the citadel method is one thing that allows technician personalities to paint to a good standard, where not following it is what artist personalities do.
Or, to put it a different way, the difference between a chef and a baker. The baker follows a process, and gets consistent, good results. The Chef cooks with feeling, and can have wildly different results.
@@JMcMillen and CONSUME MORE, paint them fast and buy new ones
But here's the thing, and its not really fully articulated in this vid: even for "tabletop-standard", the citadel method is far from the most efficient. Having to highlight *everything* + having redundant extra steps (i.e. rebasing to highlight up a shade) makes you take more time than you need. Getting smart with undercoats + having less steps helps me paint faster and have a more productive time
There are 2 tutorials I need.
This video and Peachy's how to move your hand faster and then I am set.
I'm telling him to make this now!
Just set to x4 speed
This is not just one of Rogue’s best videos but one of the most honest and helpful videos about painting on UA-cam. Demystifying the process and the differences between styles and their limits is perfect. Thank you!
🥹♥️
100%. We created the
‘System’ for beginners and intermediates to get results they were happy with. It’s only really a set of tools that anyone can adapt to their needs and there are a lot of really great tools and techniques from other companies and creators to play with and have fun with.
I never played Warhammer growing up - but I played a lot of classic Battle Tech and even in that the process was PRIME - BASE - WASH - DRYBRUSH (Highlight) - I'm not sure where we got it from, but that same paint system carried over across the entire landscape of mini painting in the mid-90's. Honestly, that's still what I'm doing except after all that there may be a series of blending, highlighting and washing to get the desired effect. Hasn't done me wrong in about 30 years and I'm a little better now than I was at 12...
If you are using the Citadel system to paint intermediate level miniatures, you are getting scammed. If you only want tabletop level, buy primers and use slapchop. Why? It's faster, cheaper, and overall... Just better.
@@zackredgarz3690slapchop came along much later than the citadel system. Largely as a result of contrast which was launched years after the current main citadel range. Contrast was intended to get painting done faster and we knew that it was a just a tool that people would take and adapt to other uses 😊 seems to have worked.
@@zackredgarz3690 That's some flawed logic. You sound like the guy who talks crap on people at the game store for what their minis look like, then wonder why no one wants to play with you,
@@mimas120 Don't be mad, everyone knows Citadel only wants to sell 3 paints minimum for each colour to beginners... And is not worth or even fair to new people. Slapchop is faster and friendly to people without experience so better than base, shade, layering, dry and all plehora of paint ranges. The rest of your comment is just a very sad ad hominem.
I been painting since 1987 and I am trying to capture that skill again at 58 years old!
Richard Gray was the first one to push me out of my citadel approved bubble with his wet glazing/stabbing style. Few months ago I heard you mention that it feels so weird to go back over parts after applying a wash. That is basically when I stopped using washes for the "all over" method, and only applying them on details, or combining them into effects or mixing with contrasts/speed paints. This almost by itself pushed me suddenly to think about volumes and lighting, and after these few months I see a definite improvement (in my humble minipainter opinion).
Keep cracking those molds and kicking open the doors Louise!
As someone who only in the last hour has finished my first miniature, this video is so inspiring and useful for how I can further develop my painting, as while I'm reasonably happy with how it is, I feel like the shading and lack of gradual shading, by not having blending is what is holding it back.
I'm a big fan of the old Kevin Adams space orks and the more colourful ork feels more reminiscent of those, so I definitely like that look.
One trick I've been using is to drybrush over a contrasting colour to give the effect of rust of weathering. For instance you can drybrush metal colours over a brown or orange base to get a good rusty metal effect.
The citadel one looks more modern 40k Grim-dark. Yours looks like it's sits between the Retro colours and the modern scheme, which is rather cool.
Man I wish this video was around when I first got back into the hobby! I spent a LOT of time trying to find anyone that was demonstrating the difference between like Showcase/Grimdark vs "I can clearly see that unit from where I'm standing and so can my opponent". In the last year and a half, this is the closest thing to that video; Alex @52Miniatures did a really nice job also. What I've found experimentally is that the quality of the paint job *can* make an impact, but primarily the saturation and contrast (both in color and value) are what will draw your eye the most.
The citadel system worked great for a one size fits all but also in an age where people didn't have access to the vast amount of resources we do today. I've come back to the hobby after 25ish years away and honestly don't remember how I did way back when, but I've kind of learned from all over since coming back and its been interesting. Loved the video as always, only downside was I didn't care for the few references in the beginning of looking at golden demon and then looking at your own work; there is no reason for that to be something people do unless you are also entering contests, and I was surprised to see it mentioned a few times.
100% agree, no one watching this video will ever win a slayer sword so those are unrealistic standards
Personally, I'm a very slow learner when it comes to painting miniatures, partly because it has always seemed very intimidating but also because I'm self-taught from the 90s. The appeal to me of the Citadel method is it allows for almost a paint-by-numbers method whilst allowing me artistic freedom to explore the model while still getting results I could be proud of. I am in awed admiration of what painters like Louise and Peachy can do, but I know that's still a ways off for someone like myself. But! Videos like this allow me to start experimenting and step up my game ever so slightly each time. So thanks for this!
I took this video to heart when starting painting my new Dwarfs for The Old World and it’s such a freeing and refreshing way to paint. I’m not stressing and the dwarfs are being done fast and look great. Thank you!
@16:28..."In fact often something as simple as a base coat and a small edge highlight looks much better than a base coat, a wash, four layers and three edge highlights..."
Solid Gold Advice...Right Here
Louise: whoosh! No, that way.
Editor (maybe also Louise?): lol, no!
I had a good laugh at that one!
Editor Louise is also Louise but we have very different energies
@@roguehobbies Lol! I can imagine trolling your past self while editing could be a nice bit of entertainment while doing the less-fun part of making videos.
So many amazing things I learned to maybe get out the comfort zone with and all I can think to comment on is how much that manic music cut in for each step title made me grin. I love this channel's "frantic, silly gremlin" energy on its editing. I found that it was Juan Hidalgo I got my first shove outside the comfort zone with, when he showed all the weird and wonderful things contrast paint can do that isn't just a single coat. People see my Tanith's camo cloaks and go "woah! How do I do that?" exactly like how I look at other painters I think are great. But it was him teaching TWO coats of a contrast, then glaze, then use a mixing pot fo contrast and medium and layer to get a gorgeous mud, and then stippling using semi translucent contrast to make it have a see-through to the base camo colour... he's SO good. I really want to try recess shading and that vivid nature now through after seeing this.
Thank you for this video. I’ve been spending 2024 unlearning the citadel method. From not using washes, to mixing my own colors, to even using oil paint instead of acrylics for some projects. It’s been liberating.
So now you are ready for Golden Demon, right?
Truly inspiring. I got the made to order marauder giant in the mail today, built it and I had until I watched this video no idea how I would take on the painting. But this video really got me thinking about more creative ways of painting this center piece model in a more fun way. Thanks for being great!
Thats awesome! I love that mini so much!
Thank you for tackling this subject! As a long time Imperial Fist player I have worked for a long time to find a good and fast and effective way to paint yellow on Space Marines. I've gotten it down to four steps and i think it really adheres to how you described your "less is more" approach. It as nice to see that kind of thinking on miniatures painting being accepted and advocated for.
I find that Contrast-style paints are a great way to do a controlled recess shade.
They're very forgiving if you have trouble controlling the brush, as they tend to naturally shrink back into the target recess.
Great tip!
This is a great video. When I started miniature painting in the 80’s there wasn’t really a GW method. Painters all wanted to stand out and be creative. My earliest GW pieces were for display in model shops and I used to lean into more flamboyant colour palettes. The GW method really created loads of similar boring looks and seems more about selling paints now.
If you look at my Orks from a few years back and my orks now there's a huge difference and it's ditching the wash.
It's recess shades with burnt sienna, not green, and some pink in the deep recesses around the face, makes for a much more interesting model and they're more fun to paint
Nice to meet you today, Louise! I'm assembling Abaddon in my hotel room as we speak!
Yay!! 😁🖐️ Hiiii
Argh, there are two wolves inside me. One loves grimdark paintjobs but also love bright and colourful paintjobs. What a conundrum.
Grim bright?
Why not both!
You can paint grimdark with some very bright details, like bright pink plasma and ice-blue lenses on space marine armor. Having those OSL details drown out almost all the other color can work really well.
Grimdark is just pastel goth, I guess.
What a cool pair of wolves
Really glad that I started with model kits (mostly in 1/32nd & 1/35th scale), and modeling railroading a decade before I got into R.P.G's and miniature war gaming. I was also the generation that had to do buy figures from prior war games (Napoleonics, Roman, and others) to have figures for D&D. Granted I liked painting and modifying of these figures to have a character mini (for those combat moments were you all need to know where everyone is). I'm glad that I was building WW2 models & building dioramas, and model railroading, before wargaming because I was learning from the Master model makers for those hobbies. It was a domino effect. Each one I learned at lot from, and that knowledge & those skills carried over.
This method does kind of require a good command of both colour theory, great brush control and command of your paint mixing thinning, it's definitely not beginner or intermediate friendly, it's definitely for someone looking to be a advanced painter. I've painted hundreds of miniatures, with a mix of the citadel method and also grim dark techniques and have gone on to dabble with this approach to skin with some blending and thin layers rather than washes, and it is really really hard to get good results. Like REALLY hard. The presenter sort of sugar coats the difficulty you'll have learning this.
Well said Louise, having all kinds of unusual colour in the shaded areas is a game changer. I like to do a pre paint with an air brush of either a cool colour from above and a warm colour from below, or the other way around. A bit of colour theory knowledge with complementary colors and split complementary colours actually makes this easier. And not as differculty as one might think. Loved the video.
This ranks up there as one of the best mini painting videos I've watched ever. The brighter colors on the 2nd guy look so much better to my colorblind eyes, which need lots of contrast to really appreciate detail. I love seeing stuff painted with brighter colors because of it. When I see stuff painted all dark and washed down and "grimdark" they just look undefined and ugly to me...and I can't differentiate much of the color differences.
This was a solid video. I’ve gotten stuck in a rut with my painting and this has really inspired me to branch out with my colours and painting styles
I will always respect Duncan, but once I learned about Grimm dark, that was some awesome awesome mind blowing experience, because it brought back a lot of the old stuff from train painting and miniatures for that
i started painting a year ago, and never learned to paint ever, just kinda started. with the tips form this channel and just trying stuff, i now commission work at the local game shop
i also Base > highlight > wash for that grimdark look
You know to be totally honest, this video has been super validating towards the way that I've been painting, I haven't been using a lot of the citadel painting method, I just never got into it, though I have been using a number of citadel paints, I just never exactly got it so I've been kind of feeling my way through painting and watching a lot of videos on UA-cam and have roughly stumbled into a painting style that's fairly similar to your second ork you painted, I have a very bright and saturated painting style and have been painting a similar way with the difference being that I start with my shade color paint on most of the model with the shade color then paint a highlight over that which is my midtone and then highlight from there. I've been recently experimenting with blending and undertones so this video has kind of felt very relieving that I'm not going the exact wrong way.
So thank you very much for making it!
Thanks. I actually stumbled into that wet blending base coat method trying to paint a demon prince with some "fiery" skin tones. Going from bright yellow in the recesses to darker reds on the round of the muscles.
I then discovered I can wet blend different colours into each other by looking at the infinity painting style. And models look much better with more daring shading and blending.
I really like the "other" orc it just pops more for me and it showed some new ideas to try out.
Both finished miniatures look great! Whatever people enjoy more is what they should do and worrying about labels etc should be a thing of the past.
Your videos never fail to get me excited to paint again, which is especially impressive considering I'm 3k into a tyranid army! Motivation to paint more of the same scheme can be hard to come by, but I find your whole outlook towards the hobby (seeking challenges, improvement, or just a new experience) so refreshing.
I started learning to paint with the citadel system but quickly craved a faster method. Thanks for this, there are a lot of great tips that can help me improve both speed and quality in my painting.
I long ago switched out the citadel painting method and using interesting colours is my favourite thing, but this video is still super inspirational! I def feel the bit about keeping some bits simple and not overcomplicating everything. I'm coming back to painting after a semi-break while recovering from a back injury, and i'm having to re-evaluate my painting style, so your pep talk was extremely helpful thanks :)
I was already painting some orruks and was so stoked to see this video and I got to try this method out on my army. This is the first time in a long time where I felt that I actually improved. I think my mind just got blown away. Thanks louise
Aw this is so great to hear I'm glad it helped ☺️
I really liked this video. So many painters (me included) learned with the GW method and it's great for beginners but there are other ways to paint. The most important things is that by tying something new, we learn and improve much faster
The 2nd one looks 80's early 90's very nice.
Bang on. It totally reminded me of stuff I'd see in the Fantasy Miniatures hardback books
I was a self taught mini painter. There weren't YT tutorials or any friends and peers who painted back when I was learning.
A couple of years ago I switched to the Citadel method, and have noticed my models have actually been looking worse, albeit painted faster than I used to.
My self learned painting went like this:
1)Black primer. Always black primer
2)Lay down a base coat, taking my time to purposely avoid recesses to leave them with the black showing (this took quite a lot of time)
3)drybrush my highlight color
4)repeat step 2, but with the details.
This method did take a lot of time. The only army I got close to finished with this method was my DropZone Commander army.
Honestly this video has inspired me to revisit my own self taught method. Maybe I can speed it up with newer knowledge?
Great video Louise! Very interesting to see the ideas on the non-Citadel side of things and I will certainly be testing them out at some point in the future.
If I had a critique though, it would be that since the two Orks weren't painted in the same general colours, we didn't really get a fair comparison between the two techniques. I know that you wanted to highlight the ability to do a more brightly coloured miniature, but I feel that this isn't impossible from the Citadel system (side eyes Imperial Fists and other brightly painted armies) so kinda a moot point?
And since a lot of folks in our community prefer the grimdark style, they're naturally going to be drawn to that Ork and more inclined to dismiss the other one purely on the grounds of it being bright and colourful, which is a shame since I feel it is the better painted of the two minis.
So cool especially the second one, I also use a highly saturated violet instead of pink for the redness
This is the true ending of the Louise-era Citadel Masterclash
It's interesting to see painters coming back around to the 'comic book' brightness and boldness of 2nd edition 40k. Many of the early models were simply block colours with black lining and they looked great as gaming pieces. These two orks may be comparable in closeup shots but from a couple of feet the lighter, brighter one will pop so much more.
The "bandaid" on the finger with the hand carrying the axe .... That's wicked ! And seems very easy to do !!
I know for me recess shading was a big game changer for me. It always kind of bothered me that I would build up a nice color only to mute it down. I started recess shading when I started an AoS army with red in the color scheme. Since adding white doesn’t work I just painted it a very bright red, watered down some darker red paint, and did the recesses. I was surprised how well it worked out and how much time it saved me. Contrast/speed paints are great for recess shading because just by adding water they flow wonderfully.
A really great concise video on the topic! I learned to use most of these techniques and styles from the absolutely superb videos of Vince Venturella, especially avoiding using the shades too much or really almost at all and adding interesting contrasting colours to shadows to really bring the model alive. Vincent's videos are super detailed and these lessons are in many videos, so having some of the most important lessons in one video is very useful.
I like the facial detail on the second Ork. One of the coolest things when looking at an army is the individuality of each model. Highlighting standout areas contributes massively to this.
I've heard you talk about how you need to progress your painting to the next level. From my perspective, you are the next level. I have been doing a lot of painting lately, and im starting to understand what you mean. I have always painted in the warhammer style: base, shade, highlight. It wasn't until I watched your vids that I started to up my game. I started to use a wet pallette and thats when I started to mix and create glazes and understand paint consistency. I've got a long way to go, but its creators like you that help us on our journey. Thanks Louise 😊.
Recess shading is going to be a game changer for me!
Nice! I really like the second ork. It has more of a free flow look to it. It's pretty rewarding to experiment since it helps one's painting style grow.
I painted my whole first two armies without the use of inks/washes. Now I'm using them. I would like to explore the blending method more as I always used variations of the dry brush meathod.
Thanks for the video.
I'm definitely of the opinion that the best technique depends on what you want to achieve, sometimes things look better if you strip back all the skill and just so something simple
One of my favourite minis is a grimdark robot I did that was just primed brown followed by a heavy gunmetal drybrush, soft bronze drybrush and a dash if nihilakh oxide for character and it came out awesome, took like 10 minutes
I like both, neither look like the way I paint, but they do look like you painted them, you have a very definite style of painting. I love the way everyone paints a little different from each other.
I think that I stated painting before washes were super common. I always did a base plus two or three (or more) highlights. I never liked the all-over-wash effect. :) I appreciate the discussion on the different shading colors for sure.
I kicked the citadel system a while back. Actually it was a guide from the eavy metal painters that started with a mid range paint colour and went to painting in shades and then highlights that pushed my painting further. That with Darren Latham's videos I learned a very different style.
"Unlearn what you have learned" Yeah, I mean... I never learn anything, I just stop after the wash because I want to play XD
Second miniature is by far my favorite of the two.
Great advice. I've been painting for 30+ years, before we had UA-cam tutorials. My painting style has changed a lot, and improved significantly. About the only things I have not tried are air brushes and oil paints as washes.
Litteraly watching this as I am experimenting with painting skin without the citadel system and I feel like I can finally paint skin I like, turns out all I had to do was lean into paint mixing to get a result I was happy with.
The newer ork paint job is so good. And it should be a creative medium in which to paint miniatures, I have seen Aeldari with neon paint jobs and they look awesome.
THIS is precisely what I've been doing these past couple of years, unlearning the Citadel system and branching out into different ways of painting. Wish more people could see this too, especially those stuck in their hobby plateaus.
Kudos, Louise. Also, very honored you signed our Pilipintados tshirt during Worlds a couple of weeks ago! The Filipino painting community loves your stuff!
You may have already done this somewhere, but a video talking about the color theory of what choices you are making for the shading and highlight colors would be super cool. One of the "boring" things of the Citadel method (and is demonstrated well on this video) is that each area is essentially the same hue from the deepest shadows to the top highlights, just changing value and saturation.
Thanks for all the tips! Just starting out doing 40k but am a avid painter so this gave me confidence to dare try it my way❤
Both look amazing!
To me the 1st one has a more realistic look and the 2nd one more vivid and cartoony. Really enjoyed that vid!
Glad you enjoyed it! ☺️
I’ve been using a dark purple as the shadow in my reds and I think it’s been working well for me!
I'd say, it depends on the army. For a more dark-toned army, I'd prefer the GW style (Black Legion Chaos, that or Dark Angels). If I were doing goblins/orks or other vibrant/colorful armies (Bretonnia comes to mind), I'd be more inclined to the second style.
Favorite thumbnail yet. 😁
There's no arrow though, I miss my emotional support arrow 🥺
Also, once Contrast Paints hit the scene, it became all contrast all the time, and that bothered me. I've been bucking the way I used to paint for a long time, now, which was more or less a variant of the Citadel Painting System (from Privateer Press), by not relying on washes near as much as I used to. I've been getting into glazing my layers and sometimes I use paints on my palette and sometimes I use inks or even my Citadel washes thinned down drastically. Recess shading seems like something I could use more often to this end, and wet blending, too. I'm also trying my level best to try and paint with brighter colors, and this video was a big help in reminding me of this goal. Wonderful and fun video as always, Miss Louise!
I've heard similar sentiment before as to the use of colour but for some reason seeing that ork (perhaps the casual way you painted him excellently) has inspired to just go for it with some colour. Purple pouches? Yea why not. Thank for the video.
Peachy enters the conversation: "Those look mega! So how I get a squad of ten orcs done in four hours is I move my hands much faster than that while remembering to not dip my brush in my cuppa!"
So many ways out there to paint all the things. What a wonderful time to be trying to figure out the painting parts of the hobby.
Oh, and I like the second orc more.
I love the bright ork. Also is just appeals to my love for savage orks. The extra pop of color really adds to the overall effect.
I would be very happy to have created either, and with both sat next to each other, I'd be tempted to use bits from both.
I just moved and haven't set up my hobby area yet. This video is torture LOL but I am gonna power through. Thanks lady.
For my own models, I used to start with a basecoat without primer of a lighter colour than the desired end result, detailing with brighter colours aswell, and then slathered on Army Painter medium shade dipping varnish, soak up the worst excess with a cotton pad, let dry for a couple of days and done.
The main purpose of this speed process is because my combined host and auxiliaries is at ~30'000
I'm so happy that I've reached the conclusion that I will never paint competitively. I'm getting older and my skills aren't getting better, more worsening lol. BUT I'm generally happy with my own paint jobs no matter how quickly it's done, just happy to get them on the table in full color
The second is definitely the best, it brings back the craziness of the Orks that GW is trying to stamp out
What an excellent video! I very recently returned to the hobby after more than a decade away, and am trying to settle on a painting approach that I am happy with. This is very reassuring! Also, that rack behind you with the 90s Citadel paint pots is giving me serious flashbacks!
Love the music from your transitions, we need a full 10hour video ❤️
Fantastic video definitely love how dynamic your version is. Very encouraging to try new things and mix in tones GW doesn’t preach.
Funny thing is, I started into the hobby kinda backwards. I've been a hobbyist artist all my life and just fairly recently got into mini painting in my 30s. So I already knew how to paint, and then essentially applied that to a new medium. I'm honestly kinda glad I didn't start out with GW's system (I didn't even start out with GW miniatures or GW paints, and I'm also glad about the latter at the very least), because I see so many struggling to break out of the formulaic "recipe" nature of the approach that it teaches, it's not even funny. I see questions like "which paints (meaning exact citadel names) did you use for XYZ?" so much, and it kinda makes me sad because this system is more than anything else designed to push the Citadel brand as a quasi-requirement to paint, because it makes especially newcomers terrified to think outside the box and be comfortable with using just "any medium-ish blue" instead of specifically "Macragge blue" and nothing else. It's such a shame because it really holds people back.
But of course, I'm a painter first and player second, and I suppose many people are not. I'm in this hobby because I love to paint and create, and while I do play some occasional games with friends (mostly OPR though, not stock 40k, because it's just superior in every way really), it's neither what drew me to it nor why I still do it.
Wow, imagine a whole sqaud of those boyz runnin towards ya
Adding freehand warpaint and gun detail can be done on the oldschool ork as well if you prefer the traditional skin tone. Only thing I outright don't like is the blue added to the gun metal. Thank you for the very cool and inspiring video!
I'm one of those that has to paint it by the box art, due to my broken brain says that's how its suppose to look. Need to try this myself to step outside the "box", and develop more as a painter.
I can not decide if I like the traditional or the "new" style best, they both look so good. Thank you for making videos like this.
Glad you like them! 😁
This is a great idea!
I like the reference to the old codex and where you took that thought.
Great Work!
Such a great painter. Wise with colour, and brave with saturation
I've painted in dozens of ways over the years, from following my dads teaching (basically painting within the lines) with Humbrols, to the neat colourful 90's Citadel, through various clean paint efforts of various drybrush, shade, tone, wash, basecoat, black borders, edge highlight, slapchop and zenithal two decades before it was called slapchop and zenithal and so on, wet palette and so on. I've never done airbrush (though I own one). All, bar airbrushing, were included at some point or other in a White Dwarf painting guide because that's really all we had.
Can still remember meeting someone painting a blue dragon in a store in 95'ish who was adding layers of highlights to the top of the model that looked like they had added paint, then wiped it off. He revealed, no, he was in fact just watering the paint down and applying extra thin coats to created layered highlights. That pretty much just blew my mind as watering down paints was an alien concept from my Humbrol background.
In short: new techniques come along all the time, and trends and habits (and even technology) moves on - so the Citadel guides are great, but they should be taken with the pinch of salt. The same way a young footballer would read a "guide to shooting".
Your alternate miniature here reminds me strongly of what Games Workshop advised for painting in the 90s, apart from the undercoat colour. I've been out of the hobby for a long time so I've never heard of the Citadel Painting System, but it sounds like it's mostly meant to sell a range of branded paints. I like the more saturated look and more defined highlighting and shading of your alternate version, but I guess I would, having grown up on the old paint range and style!
I really love 'em both! Lots of cool tips on display!
All these years into painting and having started doing commissions, I don't have a set style or system. I adjust constantly, and learn styles and techniques with every mini I've painted. I keep it fun by having endless variety even within uniform armies like Ultramarines.
Like squidmar said you want to focus a lot of detail in the focal point of the minis, so where your eyes draw most attention to put the most effort and details
And slowly do less and less as it fades how ever it doesnt mean dont detail just do less
I really love your style though you are perfection with the basic style and i wish i had a steady hand for it and good enough brushes
Been in a bit of a hobby slump but got back to it recently with the intention of going outside my comfort zone. This gave me a lot to think about!
2nd one hands down, much more fun to have fun painting and not being restricted to the painting system
This is a great video. While I broke out of the CPS by going down a more Blanchitsu/Grimdark route with enamels, oil washes and white-spirit, I recognise that’s become a comfort zone all of itself for me. I love the second Ork precisely because going for bright, super-saturated and colourful results is where I need to go next, in order to keep developing as a miniature painter. Thanks Louise!
Although I do prefer the darker looking Ork the addition of the contrasting pinks and reds etc on the brighter one really takes me back to some of the late 80's early 90's Golden Demon entries where things weren't so rigidly locked into certain colour schemes and creative freedom made for a more interesting looking mini.
I'm one of those who's not dead set of Orc/Orks and all goblinoids being green.
Damn if I don't like to see a bloody good painted yellow skinned goblin.
They both are fantastic paint jobs, though I'm more partial to the second.
I love both grimdark/gritty and bright and colorful minis, all depending on the mini/game in question.
I am so glad that the hobby has so many different painting styles and methods, when I started in the 'obby you did your three paints and a base. I don't think either is "better" cos they're both really cool, they're just different!