How REALISTIC is the Soviet INVASION in Red Dawn?
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- In this episode, we look at the world building of Red Dawn and compare it to real world history and invasion plans.
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To answer your question, "How REALISTIC is the Soviet INVASION in Red Dawn?"...about 6 million to the 9 millionth power more realistic than North Korea invading the US in 2012
The new Red Dawn makes more sense as "we REALLY wanted to say these invading forces are from China but we're scwared" it makes sense if you mad-lib all references of North Korea to mean China.
I think they filmed it as a Chinese invasion then digitally altered all the flags to north Korean in post production.
@@ClydeRowing If they had any guts they'd release the "uncensored" version showing the invaders as Chinese, as intended.
The Chinese helped finance the movie and didn't want to be the invader.
@@lonniesides9302 Why did the producers ever take their money if it was in exchange to make a less viable product? This isn't investment, this is just a bribe. It's not giving money expecting a return on investment but to silence opposition in the media.
It’s very subtly implied in the movie that the reason that China lost over 400 million people is because the soviets actually launched a nuclear strike on China when the war began. You’ll notice that when Tanner says “600 million screaming chinamen” one of the wolverines responds “I thought there was a billion screaming chinamen” Tanner then says “there were” and then proceeds to throw some whiskey on the fire causing it to flare up aggressively, resembling a nuclear fireball.
Tanner throw booze into the fire.
@@studinthemaking yeah makes sense
I’ll never forget the words that was very deep.
That part made it my favourite scene in the film. So subtle yet so direct.
We will never know the reason why the Soviets attacked their "ally" China with a nuclear missile.
Nor will we know if China would retaliate.
As goofy as the scene of the Russian getting shot with an arrow is, it kind of seems like a pretty realistic depiction of what it would be like to be shot in the back with a kid's sporting bow lol.
It's a great scene.
There's a lot goofy things in the film. But it's still amusing.
Not sure why you think its goofy. Other than it shows you have no experience with bow hunting or hunting in general. Read some diaries from the 1700s & 1800s. Especially the Indian Wars of the American West. It was gruesome to be shot with an arrow. It was and is not a 1shot kill. Bullets and arrows don't damage like you see in video games.
People today have unrealistic expectations of how they will operate under stress.
@@f1y7rapso true!
That bow was not a toy. A Bow is a weapon capable of launching deadly, quiet projectiles.
In 1984 I was serving on a NATO country submarine tracking and hunting Soviet subs in the North Atlantic and area seas. It was the Cold War but often felt rather hot to me.
Was the NATO country the UK?
You should have opened a window then
@@Fyrdman Never ask a submariner those types of questions..
@@cheesesammich6094 it's been 40 years now
@@cheesesammich6094 40 yrs after the fact? His handle is "haggis", stands to reason he is a Brit...
I was one of the actual paratroopers that were hired to do the jumps for the invasion of this movie. I knew some things about the actors and actresses and became friendly with most of them. In the movie, I was the paratrooper who in the first take (not used) to shoot Frank McRae (the teacher) during the invasion of the school. You are correct that the movie reflected the political climate at the time. Myself and a few other paratroopers who jumped also were active duty Air Force members. We were trained on how the Soviets planned and invaded other countries as well as their tactics on the ground. We also knew that a soviet funded group was active in the Albuquerque region (this was not public knowledge at the time while this film was shot in Las Vegas, NM). The government and the military were not aware of this film until a couple of CIA agents saw one of the mock T-72 tanks.
Awesome!
I'm a bit conflicted whether it violates a federal law to admit that CIA agents operated on US soil after 1973.
What was the Soviet funded group in the Albuquerque region?
@@Bob-kk2vg with that being 40 years ago, I am not sure I remember clearly since the Veterans Administration cocktail that they prescribed me ruined al lot of my memory. But if my memory serves me correct, I believe it was something like "September " but am not sure on that.
@akosbarati2239 The CIA does have domestic divisions that provide support, research, and debriefings
In 2000, my first first day of fourth grade, my 70 year old teacher told an entire class of 9 year olds to turn around and look out the giant bay window behind us. And then she proceeded to tell us that at any moment the Russians could drop soldiers down and they would march in here, shoot her in the head, and take over the school.
It wasn't until I finally watched Red Dawn, years later, that I thought back to that moment and understood just how bad of a teacher she really was.
So par for the course as far as teachers go? An uncommon flavor but about as strong as one may predict.
Lmao
Today, most teachers would WANT the Soviets to invade and overthrow America, as long as they used the proper pronouns of course.
Sounds like she had a couple of wires down in her head...
LOL. I would expect a guy teacher to say that, but not a female. Because guys love using scare tactics to entertain kids.
A couple years earlier (1982) there was a mini-series on NBC called World War 3 where the Soviets send a Spetsnaz group into Alaska to capture part of the pipeline to force the USA to end its grain embargo. A more realistic scenario than a full scale invasion
One of my all time favorites....Jeroen Krabbe and David Soul were awesome
I still prefer Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising if only because it felt a smidge more logical such as one of the POVs being a weather officer in Iceland trying to survive after the Soviets land forces on the island
Watched RED Dawn and read RSR in either the 7th or 8th grade ….
And while both were very difficult to digest, at the time, even then i could appreciate the difference between writing a military fiction book versus a military fiction movie….
Basically a movie is allowed a certain level of poetic license, while the author of a book is expected to “count the bullets” …. If a Plane type X can only carry Y number of missiles, you are going to get roasted the first time you write about it shooting Y+1
Red Storm Rising was far and away Clancy's greatest achievement.
@@rembrandt972ifystill a great novel
@@rembrandt972ify I give most of the credit there to Larry Bond.
I've probably read Red Storm Rising at least 20 times over the course of my life. I wouldn't list it among my favorites at this point, but it's still a book I'll think about & pull off the shelf every so often.
I used to wish they'd eventually make it into a movie (or mini-series), until I got older and realized A) how insanely difficult and expensive it would be to film, and B) how badly they'd end up butchering it in the process.
I would add that 7 days to the Rhine was not THE Soviet war plan, but A plan, for a specific scenario, out of probably hundreds. It’s even mentioned here, that it was more of a last-ditch measure if NATO rendered Poland in-passable, locking the Soviet reserves out of the fight. In that scenario the only hope they had was to quickly smash NATO with the GSFG and Warsaw Pact armies before they ran out of supplies.
The USSR/Warsaw Pact had a massive numerical, and in many areas until the mid-1980s, qualitative advantage over NATO forces in Europe. Using tactical nukes would have been a detriment, as their large armored formations were more vulnerable to a NATO counterstrike than NATO forces. It’s likely they would have tried to leverage their advantage without immediately going nuclear.
That being said, NATO acknowledged that they were on the losing side at the time, and planned to fight delaying actions hoping that the war could be ended diplomatically. If that didn’t work or the Soviets achieved a breakthrough, they would use tactical nuclear weapons.
Things started to change in the mid/early 80s, with NATO seriously planning on putting up a real fight, implementing AirLand battle doctrine and fielding weapons running on advanced electronics that the Soviets could not mass produce. By 1989, NATO had the clear advantage.
I love this comment!
In the 1960s and 1970s, NATO could hold Europe simply because Russian military assets were dependent on short supply line due to simple mathematics, a dependence on rail transport for supplies, and Europe using completely incompatible rail gauge. Sure they could move through (and being delayed) through West Germany, but the USSR could get a far as France before well, burning through their supplies unless they moved REALLY slowly, thus allowing US troops to arrive in Germany and the UK quickly (well, the UK). However, yes once the 1980s rolled around M1s, TOWs, helicopter gunships, etc gave NATO enough defensive firepower to blunt a USSR advance much sooner.
I think the symbol of the shift from the Pentatomic Doctrine to the Land Air Strategy was the A10, specifically designed to ruthlessly attack armored columns and logistics chains in denied airspace!
@@haroldcarfrey4206 The US had helicopter gunships in the form of the AH-1 Cobra since 1965 and has had the TOW since 1970. By 1980, the M60A3 tanks used by the US had widespread access to the M735 APFSDS round that could penetrate the frontal plate of the T-72.
@@TheDoorspook11c I know this is going to sound shocking, but I assure you it is the truth:
The A-10 wouldn't have "ruthlessly" done anything except provide its pilot with a nice titanium coffin for little to no gain while being shot down long before it ever came close to something resembling armor or logistics.
I first saw Red Dawn when I was a junior in high school, probably; and even at that age, I thought it was a pretty farfetched scenario. However, I can't think of another protracted war movie portraying World War III, so I think it's interesting and enjoyable on that account, if nothing else.
I don't think many people at the time it came out really believed the Soviets could or would invade. The whole point of the movie was American resolve and spirit rather than an actual historical possibility. We kind of already had a movie of this kind a few years earlier called V, about an alien invasion. What people at the time really believed was possible was a mini-series called The Day After about a nuclear war.
@@n.d.m.515 You have to keep in mind that the entire premise of the Soviet invasion relied on several things:
Soviets nuking SAC bases and cities to prevent US nuclear retaliation.
Airborne units cutting off passage through the Rockies by disguising themselves as passenger flights (see 1980 Afghanistan invasion).
Cuba and Nicaragua invading first through Mexico using illegal immigrants, which paved the way for the armies of both countries.
@@n.d.m.515 There was another television mini-series called "Amerka" around this time, which envisioned a United States occupied by Soviet forces.
People at the time really believed anything was possible in a World War 3 scenario. Pretty much everyone expected it to go nuclear at some point, and pretty much everyone thought the continental US would be on the receiving end of most of those nukes. The scenario in this movie is actually considerably _less_ dire than most people expected WW3 to be, in 1984.
@@Harv72b Yes, and that is why I said that people thought The Day After was more believable than the Soviet invasion Red Dawn movie. Even if they did think the latter was a good movie. I also remember "Amerika" and thought it was boring and unbelievable. It didn't present enough social chaos and direct American resistance, instead going more for soapy drama antics with politics.
@@cstgraphpads2091 Whaaaaat? An invasion on southern border of the US?
That's obviously fiction!
To be fair, the Soviet Invasion in Red Dawn is stopped halfway down the Canadian West Coast, and the armored attack through Mexico only pushes as far as it does because of the flat terrain. Not much more ground is taken, and the invaders are pushed out after only a couple years of fighting. We see their best possible plan go up in flames because they don't really understand America.
Wich makes it not their best-possible plan...
@@ernstschloss8794Well it was “their” possible plan. The outcome proved they sucked at planning.
Purposely giving yourself a 2 front war was perhaps the biggest problem in their plan. I see the reasoning behind it, as we have a lot of strategic interests in the center of our country, but that's what the tactical nukes are for. Invading California would be more advantageous. There is plenty of farming there, and mountains to help protect against counter attack. The biggest obstacle is getting across such a huge ocean. But again, they can use the attack from Mexico plan from the movie for an invasion into California. Only thing is we would see the troop buildups on satellites, so that's not too realistic either.
No, @VeraBrightfeather tell ME you lack imagination/ strategic planning at such a point, a plan as crappy as the ones the soviets use to invade the US in Red Dawn seems like "the best possible" you could think of. Or worst, that you think THEY were not able to imagine anything better...
@@jimmym3352actually a better plan is probably the one we see is world in conflict of invading through Alaska because that way you don’t have to pass major naval bases at both San Diego and Hawaii all you need to get pass is pugent sound and your in and it has far less population which means less men to leave for dealing with resistance fighters
It’s John Milius’ writing and direction that makes it. The overgrown kid and history nerd in him was dedicated to making movies as gritty and believable as possible.
100% true. Milius was a real warhawk and anti-communist. Very patriotic, but not blind to the problems on both sides.
He wrote the Jaws monolog....most of apocalypse now...Conan...lot's of pop culture stuff from the 70s -90s and HBO Rome show.
Also the Basil Poledouris soundtrack as always adds about 30-50% more quality points to any movie he worked on.
I think the plot from Octopussy was a pretty good one for WW111 in Europe. The idea of a power-hungry Soviet general using an accidental nuke dentation to force the West to abandon nuclear deterrence in Europe so he could role in with conventional forces and take over was pretty cool to me. I also like the humor: Tourist, "Are you with our group?" Bond, "No, ma'am I'm with the economy tour!" That still makes me laugh.
WW111 WTF that's a lot of Wars
(BTW you are supposed to use the letter I not the number 1 as I is the roman numeral for 1)
@@Waterford1992dats public skool edjamacation 4 ya 😂
@@Waterford1992 Everyone knows what they meant by WW111, your correction was unnecessary.
@@quagmoe7879Just because we all know, doesn't mean we can't help them avoid looking stupid in the future.
@@TheSchultinator Well because of the fact we all knew it actually makes the person doing the correcting look like a lame nerd.
I remember when the eastern block collapsed and went on to the fall of the USSR.
The world breath a sigh of relief and it seemed like everything was possible but unfortunately we squandered are great potential to really help the world while it was briefly united
If we're being fair, the Soviet Union was a pretty tough opponent, and didn't go down without a pretty damned good fight - that squandered potential can be directly traced to Soviet Cold War successes against the West in the west, in the form of psychological warfare, espionage, and other successes through infiltrating the infotainment sector, education, and American politics: American politicians today are openly sympathetic to a communist cause even after the fall of the USSR, and the Soviet Union had been funding Hollywood with a yearly propaganda bankroll that staggeringly bigger than that spent by American politicians every four years for presidential elections, funding that was taken over by the Chinese Communist Party after the Soviet Union fell. The Soviets spent themselves into an early grave trying to keep up with the Space Race and an American military budget, but the Americans find themselves staggering around decades later from the pain of the punches that the Soviets landed before they fell, with the CCP tagging in to land a few blows of their own besides... it remains to be seen whether the USA managed to do enough damage to the CCP over the longer haul to take out the CCP without following the Soviet and Chinese communist superpowers into the grave, but one must surely admit that, under the circumstances, the USA hardly had an easy time in its cold wars against very fierce and worthy opponents, but survived those cold wars better than any empire should fairly hope to, depending on how badly the consequences of decades of irresponsible deficit spending, undermined education, hijacked media, and a corrupted population takes a toll on the USA's long-term stability, and how well the USA is able to bounce back from the damage over the longer haul!
“Dated special effects” I think you mean damn good special effects for this movie being 40 years old, aged a lot better than even many of the marvel movies cgi and some of those aren’t even 10 years old… looking at you black widow
Yup. He forgets that this was released in 1986. This was VERY realistic for mid 80s special effects
It's damn good considering this isn't a big budget movie. That tank scene was awesome. Not to mention the Russian Helicopter scene (Hind helicopter I believe).
@@jimmym3352 don't forget about the "Russian tank" story, look it up
@@jimmym3352 I was a 19K in the Army and I am totally convinced that the American tank shooting back at the Russian tanks when Curly Bill Brocius gets killed is an M1 Abrams
For some reason, the kids all seem to hate actual practical effects.
I was stationed with the Headquarters Battalion of the Pershing II's in the 80s. We were UNBELIEVABLY close to nuclear war that whole decade. The nukes were not removed from Germany until the collapse of the Soviet Union. Reagan's hard line towards them, out spending them and the P-II's were together, a very large part of the collapse. Not to mention the uprising of the Soviet youth.
I remember that! I was with C 2/4 INF. in Heilbronn, West Germany. Guarding P2 missiles in the field and at the CAS. Great memories.
We may have "defeated" the Soviet Union, but communism survived. And sadly, it seems to be stronger than it has been in a long time, it just rebranded itself as Socialism.
I was 12 years old when this movie came out, and actually living in NATO member Turkey where my father was stationed. Didn't get to see it in the theater on base, but as soon as a video taped copy made it into our hands it became a favorite. I did a lot of reading on the geopolitics of the time and on military equipment & strategy as I grew up, and eventually wound up enlisting in the US Army as an intelligence analyst.
Really up until recently, the only aspect of the Soviet invasion that I found unrealistic was that their ICBMs were "a helluva lot more accurate than we thought". Over the past few years it's dawned on me (pun 100% intended) that the *most* unrealistic aspect of it was the United States allowing Mexico to fall, or even to descend into a state where it was unable or unwilling to deny transit to Cuban forces. Particularly with Reagan in office, we would've invaded Mexico ourselves long before it got to that point. They also completely ignored the Soviets' Southern flank, in the form of Turkey and Pakistan (both firmly allied with the US at the time) or even a continued insurgency in Afghanistan.
What I do continue to love about this movie, even to this day, is the attention to detail given to the "Soviet" equipment used in Red Dawn. It's not even remotely difficult _now_ to get your hands on all the Soviet/Russian stuff you want for a movie, but in 1984 none of those things were available in the west beyond AK-47s. John Milius and his team did an *incredible* job with the mockups, far better than the US Army was using when I was a member of the opposing forces at Fort Irwin a decade later.
Yup. The props were so realistic looking, the FBI made a visit on set to determine where they got them. Couldn't believe they were only (very realistic) vismods. And the AKs weren't even authentic Russian stuff. They were Egyptian Maadi AKM clones.
@@armynurseboy There's a whole segment about this on the Red Dawn blu-ray. It talks about how the FBI showed up and interviewed everyone associated with the movie and raided the company that was building/storing the full scale tank props.
spoken like a true analyst
spot on
I dont think Raegan would Go for an Invasion of Mexico, as he most likely knew it would only make more mexicans side with the communists, and Raegan did permit Sale of Fighter jets to Mexico IRL in 1981. Sending Aid to the Mexican goverment to fight Cuba and Nicaragua would probably be the way to go.
considering how much the US and the CIA was sticking our grubby little fingers into Latin American politics (and still are), we definitely wouldn’t have let Mexico turn red
Short version: It is extremely hard to hide mobilization on that scale.
Tank treads burn out and have to be replaced.
The USSR did not have the lift capacity to carry 60 divisions to Alaska. After that, it is a 1600 mile drive along crappy roads to hit CONUS.
The Airline surprise in Afghanistan was a few hundred Soviet special forces taking the government leaders hostage.
The ready brigade of the 82nd had plans to counter that sort of thing.
Calumet also doesn't really block paths to the Rockies.
Not to. Mention, major US military bases are in the way of all invasion areas. Plus all the National Guard armories.
And the millions of gun owners all through the Mountain states and the South and Southwest.
Interesting fact to reinforce your second point, there is no road from Nome, Alaska to the CONUS, not even an ice road. You have to take a plane or ferry to Seattle. Also, talking about airlift capacity , how would Colonel Bella have tanks and APC’s in Calumet 20 minutes after the first airborne troops land at the school? 😅😅😅
@@MoellerMike1977 The NATO plans expected parts of Europe to be under (hopefully short-term) soviet occupation where the soviet mechanized forces took ground and moved on to be followed with security troops and soviet rear services.
They were planning out how partisan warfare against the soviets could play out. They expected some mix of civilian resistance and splinters of army units to maybe be in shape for that. Their role would have been to harass and report on soviets. Like report what aforementioned rear services are doing.
They thought organization was as important as kit. How do these people get food, medical treatment and resupply. And most important how to communicate. Any of these groups would need to act with other forces and the government. Some of the plans include a ready-made partisan chain of command and responsibilites, like at a certain point dockworkers and home guard will start to sabotage their own workplaces.
Another part was how municipal government could work under a soviet occupational government. They assumed that civilian needs would not stop just because an invasion was on top of town. A lot of municipal services would have to keep operating even with a soviet officer in charge making his own demands.
Not to Mention almost all of the ww2 Navajo Codetalkers/Trigger happy Texans/Crazy New Mexicans/Uber Religious Arizonian and Utahains
Also, most of Canada would be Enraged about getting invaded
Communists:
"Hey, Canada, don't you have some disputed territory with the US?"
Canada: "huh? oh shit we do"
Communists: "would you like some help getting them back?"
Canada: "what the fuck did you just say to me?"
Communists: "sorry wrong guys" "Hey, Mexican-Americans, would you like some help getting your territory back"
Mexican Americans: "... bro have you seen Mexico? I'm good"
the irony is that Canada is led by the son of communist.
tedo's Mexicans Texans are some of the true blooded americans
they ethically call themselves mexicans but proud 2 be american
:T yeah totally will work
@@unifiedhorizons2663god bless the tejanos
@@olliegoria facts
Remember, Canada has two settings, Polite and War Crime
The thing about the Cold War is that both sides didn't want to engage in a ground campaign.
A Russian winter would be a nightmare for NATO forces.
The Russians wouldn't survive the North American territories.
It was nukes that everyone was worried about.
The reason why the Cold War was so effective is exactly because of the size and distance involved between the antagonists. Historically, this type of thing involved neighboring countries. Neither the US nor the USSR had the capacity to invade the other in any reliable fashion. The main thing the US had/has going for it is that everyone knows communism eventually destroys itself. The “long war” approach the US took was because we knew that eventually the economic pressure of the Cold War combined with growing civil unrest against poor treatment/living conditions meant the USSR would fail. The only real question was would that happen before a psychotic leader appeared who would push the limitations and force an actual war. It is fairly common knowledge that the leadership of the USSR throughout the Cold War knew they could not hope to survive a lengthy conflict vs the US/NATO
@@TwilightxKnight13 Maybe not the early Soviet leadership, but the likes of Gorbachev knew he was in control of a shrinking ship and did all he could to make it sea worthy again, but it was far to late by that point.
Russian winters are a meme. They aren't a real problem for modern armies like the US has. The issue with the Russian winter when Nazi Germany was fighting was that the Soviets just threw men at them like they would dirt, and the Nazis were already draining resources on WAY too many fronts
Plenty of Americans could handle a Russian winter, we live between Montana and New York
I believe it was a Japanese leader that once said "America would be tough to invade. There would be a gun behind every bush!" Expect in Texas.
Me and my friends first saw this movie when it came out in the theater. We were 14 years old. It scared the crap out of us. We were all convinced that we were going to become our own "Wolverines" group before the decade was out.
I think you may still have a chance.
Thanks very much for your time and work!
The thing is, the moment that the nukes got detected and confirmed, the US strategic arsenal strategy was to literally launch _1st strike_ units immediately.
Basically, the only way this would end is Fallout.
No. Prevailing doctrine of the time code for writing out the first strike, and only then firing.
Nice try, though.
You're referring to launch on warning.
Someone correct me if I am blending WW3 movies together, but I think in Red Dawn Powers Boothe says that Russian infiltrators knock out most of the USA missile fields and or early warning centers in Canada/Alaska. Noticeable exceptions being the ones around Minot, and the Kansas City area which are destroyed by nuclear weapons but DO launch their missiles
Very - very small point. You said in Min. 9:48 that the Green Party entered the Reichstag by the early 80s
Which is not really correct. The Reichtag is just the building where the Bundestag (one chamber of the German parliament) is housed - nowadays.
But it only became the home of the parliament when germany moved its capital from Bonn to Berlin in 1999.
Before that, it was the Bundeshaus in Bonn.
They could have tried, but as a few people died trying to cross the Wall it makes sense why it was in Bonn instead.
None of it is cringe. The movie awesome, and it's great to show brothers to show them how brothers stick together no matter what. "I'll hold you as long as I can, Manny.... I'll hold you as long as I can...."
It's super corny and turbo cringe, you are dẹlụṣiọnal
I can't carry American flag for you, Frodo. But i can carry you!
Wasnt his name matty?
You're right, just a typo.@@xeqblued
great analysis of the historical realities on the ground at that time. Hard to believe that this is really the first time you watched RD.
You did a great job of communicating the paranoia which gripped America at the time.
I look forward to more of your contet.
"Red Dawn" is one of my favorites from childhood. Funny thing about that movie, "First Blood Part 2," and "Rambo 3" the Soviet "Hind" gun ships in those movies were actually French Puma helicopters.
I saw this movie by myself when I was 10 in the cinema. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made and my buddies and I played 'Red Dawn' throughout our neighborhood for years afterward.
That's sad.
@@andywellsglobaldominationWolverine !
WOLVERINES !!
Neither the 1984 nor the 2012 movies are particularly realistic. However, the original Red Dawn is DRAMATICALLY more realistic, and a better movie on every level.
I saw the original in the theater as a kid. Young kid me thought it was scary realistic. As I got older, learned about real life, paid attention to history and politics, it became obvious this was just a movie. Nothing more. Got butts in the seats playing off a fear of the time.
So... you were abused by the media as a child... sad.
Count your good fortune that you needed to know little how it actually worked. RD isn't realistic by any stretch. After 1956, the Soviets were adamant of establishing presence. In addition to a military base a mile away from where I lived, the regime had militias the regular police, and secret police informants on their side.
Cops treat right wing militias in the US in two ways, either they go out of their way because they're part of the same (at times anti-government) militia, or they're afraid other cops would not have their back if they arrest a militia member. The only reason militias are not yet more violent (if you don't count death threats to Colorado judges, election workers, journalists, LGBTQ) is because white Americans still dominate power dynamics.
Looking back over it, I don't think 'Red Dawn' was actually playing off of fear: it comes across to me now a bit like a revenge fantasy in which an American underdog wins out against a fantasy "latest" in a series of failures and losses that seemed to finally be turning around in the Reagan era: to understand the mood of the time, it kinda helps to remember just how bleak and depressing and hopeless and humiliating the '70s really were for the USA.
- The Vietnam war had ended disastrously just a few years before 'Red Dawn' played in 1984.
- The Bay of Pigs fiasco and Cuban Missile Crisis were very recent memory.
- A series of hijackings, assassinations, and bombings centered around the Middle East left America feeling helpless and vulnerable, while the government looked feeble and uncertain.
- The JFK, MLK, RFK, and other political assassinations were also very recent memories.
- Watergate had been only a few years before, and American politics would continue to reel from the aftermath for years to come, resulting in a deep distrust of American government.
- The late '60s counterculture and protest era was turbulent and violent, and had long been moving into a very cynical and pessimistic direction following seasons of brutal race riots and a virtual Democratic civil war at the 1968 DNC "mostly peaceful protests"; the American Republican "right wing" lacked definition and identity, and was struggling to reinvent itself until Reagan's first term helped give it direction, and a "Religious Right" movement formed in the wake of the '80s Satanic Panic.
- The Moon landing and a long-term more sustainable space program was about the only saving grace for America's role in the Space Race, in which America had been a few steps behind the Soviets up to that point; America took the win when it could, but there was always a sense of unease around playing second-fiddle to Soviet successes otherwise, which wasn't helped by Moon Hoax conspiracy theories.
- The American '70s economy was a shambles, I remember my parents worrying about the expense of running an air conditioner, leaving a TV or light on, opening a door or refrigerator too long, flushing a toilet too often, etc., and the family from grade-school kids to grandparents clipped coupons together almost nightly. Talking heads were singing the praises of a series of "miracle economies" that would surely outcompete the USA: Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia, and later China - most of these would quickly prove to be temporary economic bubbles, like the dotcom/tech, real estate, and crypto bubbles, but "everyone" knew in the early '80s that Japan's economy was on track to be unbeatable and Japanese businessmen would buy the USA in a few years, at the time!
- There was the whole OPEC oil cartel and oil crisis thing, with gas prices at the time skyrocketing to what seemed absurd heights, and rumors of "Peak Oil" dooming us to a world without oil by the dreaded and apocalyptic Year 2000....
- Everyone in the '70s and '80s would have already been aware of the looming ecological crisis: it was a time when we could look forward to Global Cooling before Global Warming replaced it, a time when aerosol hairspray desperately needed to be banned to save the Earth but probably wouldn't be enough to stop acid rain and ozone holes, and even if it did work, there was always the China Syndrome waiting in line to destroy the planet before the Year 2000! But, nuclear war and nuclear winter were certain to destroy the planet before Year 200 first in any event, everyone knew it.
- The Disco era had only just died out, to be missed by almost nobody... it was pretty embarrassing stuff!
In short, the United States as a nation felt inept, aimless, ineffective, weak, and doomed by 1984, and the "wins" up to that point really weren't yet enough to outweigh the FAILs.
Movies like 'Red Dawn (1984)' and the suspiciously similar 'Invasion USA (1985)' and 'Rambo II: First Blood' , and 'Predator (1987)' and in its weird way 'Aliens (1986)' kinda played out a bit less like fears of what might happen, than they do like revenge fantasies against fantasy versions of what had already happened: it was almost like America's collective unconscious screaming out in unison "sure, we've taken a bunch of L's over the last several years, but give our farm boys a pickup truck, a gun, a Bible, and an American flag, and turn them loose on those commies in a fair fight, and see what can happen!"
I remember the hippies at the time been deeply unsettled by the "jingoism" of these sorts of movies, and being far more comfortable with the sort of dystopian, hopeless sci-fi of the '70s that had brought us movies like 'Logan's Run', 'A Boy and His Dog', 'Soylent Green', 'West World' and 'Future World', 'Rollerball', the numerous 'Planet of the Apes' movies, 'Omega Man', 'Deathrace 2000', 'Escape from New York', 'Silent Running', 'THX-1138', 'A Boy and His Dog', 'Zardoz'... basically, movies like 'Red Dawn' showed Americans overcoming the worst that could happen by being almost cartoonishly American, where the films of the previous decades fairly routinely portrayed a world where being an American pretty much always led to a fascistic, hopeless, bankrupt, self-destructive, apocalyptic disaster that could have only been averted by tuning in, turning on, dropping out, and joining the hippies in endless smug, self-righteous American self-loathing....
For a film like 'Red Dawn', the worst thing that could happen was just a prologue to the rest of the film, where American Common Men (and Women), with a little hard work, sacrifice, courage, and "American Know-How" could overcome the worst - like a Soviet invasion - eventually.
It's kinda interesting to note here that I think almost everyone in the USA over a certain age was quite aware that there was no way in the real world that the Cubans could possibly have successfully invaded the USA, even given all the generous advantages that the movie allowed to enable that invasion: I remember even as a kid chuckling at 'Red Dawn' and 'Invasion: USA' at the premise of a successful Cuban invasion of America, and the film-makers seemed to be in on the admission that the premise was far-fetched, as if to say "OK, hear us out - there's no way this would happen in the real world, but just suspend your belief here and imagine WHAT IF it could really happen, what would it be like?" It kinda worked under the circumstances, because almost all those American failures leading up to the '80s felt kinda contrived and far-fetched... as if America were responding, "Sure, why not? If disco could happen, ANYTHING horrifying is possible, but if disco can die, then maybe we're past due for bigger wins, too - we deserve to defeat that hypothetical Cuban invasion by standing up together like real Americans, triumphantly brandishing our rifles, and yelling WOLVERINES!!!"
Silly? You can decide that for yourself.
But, there's a weird sort of optimism to it that runs on something a little different from fear alone: I don't think most viewers at the time were genuinely afraid of a Cuban or Soviet invasion, they simply felt like they'd already been through one, and were ready to fight back on at least a fantasy level!
In terms of plot and characters I prefer the 1984 movie. But in terms of the actual invasion I prefer the 2012 remake. Now hear me out in the beginning they specifically state that North Korea is the world's fourth army. And to me it makes more sense fot them to drop on the coast than in the middle of the country. Also it states that the Russia also invaded the East coast and there is something at the Mexican border. So North Korea wasn't really alone in this. Also it a problem I have with the 84 invasion is that from the moment if the paradropping the enemy has tanks and IFVs. In the remake however it shows that the paratroopers use captured HMMWVs and then it shows the actual equipment being shipped to the front lines.
@@darius_alex2043The 2012 remake wasn't even supposed to be the North Koreans. It was supposed to be the Chinese, but MGM caved at the last second and changed it for Chinese markets, which is ironic because they never marketed it in China.
The arrow pointing to TN is because of nuclear missiles that were housed in ft Campbell and maybe they also thought oak ridge was still building nukes😂
I think the map's just off. He earlier stated that the Yugoslavs were off in their geography. Shift that line a little more to the west and it'll align with the ICBM flight paths from the missile silos in Arkansas and Missouri.
Memphis is also boned as we have one base for each branch and its been a major transport hub for years
Erm, that would be Ft. Campbell Kentucky!
@@andywellsglobaldomination large part is in TN as well. Trust me, I felt the shells plenty😂
Oak ridge IS still building nukes lol
Something I think a lot of people fail to take into account is how huge and well-trained America's National Guard and reserve forces are, as well as how huge and well-armed America's police forces are. Anyone who invaded America would have to defeat America's military, it's reserve forces, it's incredibly well-armed populace, and it's well-armed police forces.
The war plans in Europe also factored in these sorts of forces.
They wanted them in a role as blocking forces and security roles. If the soviets started rolling out from East Germany, home guard units would be the first organized ground resistance they met. Home guards would be responsible for things like defending a specific bridge near them, or failing to do so blow it up. Some civilan workplaces had people tasked with sabotaging their own workplace if necessary.
Security units would be necessary in rear areas. Not to fight off major assaults on their own, but to dissuade sabotage. They expected a wave of spetsnaz assassinations and sabotage to be part of the lead-up. Not a full brigade drop, but smaller SF units tasked much like our NATO SF units would to recce and strike at opportunities. And not necessarily going right up to a place in full uniform and making themselves known.
Police would be given a sort of paramilitary role, both taking over some security tasks in urban centers and beefing itself up with reserve police. Like an airport away from the front would have police guards supplemented by a sort of police-miltia under their command.
Great point US national guard Army and Air are the best in the world.
@@ATown875 Reservists and conscripts is the cheap way to have a territorial armed force.
I think you used National Guard units in some roles in Iraq.
Also, since the movie had NATO dissolved and America internationally isolated, all our military would essentially just be at home.
@@thehobowizard Do they say if US forces are demobilized or not?
R.I.P. Patrick Swayze, Powers Boothe, Ron O'Neal, Harry Dean Stanton, Frank McRae and Lane Smith. Great actors all of them.
And Ben Johnson
There was so much (later) A-List star power in this movie that I was amazed when I re-watched it as an adult and recognized so many of them.
Im a liberal millennial who likes Red Dawn. Its been called a republican wet dream but to me its a more nuanced story. The wolverines become more ruthless as the war drags on and there are moments that humanize the soviets and the cuban colonel is a sympathetic character. Its a product of its time and in some ways its still relevant today.
Fucking Right on! exactly, Fully fleshed out characters done Rather quickly, as the action starts fast, but enough to make you care. I think a Modern viewer doesn't have the attention span or ability to pick up on the hints about the characters, Or plot points being giving in an non-obvious way. I know Im bias, but I love this move. and am Going to watch it right now!
A Republican wet dream is to get invaded and occupied by communists? No, that sounds far more like a liberal's wet dream. Camps and all. Your team would have been cheering for the Soviets and collaborating with them, you need to wake up!
Milius lifts the premise and script (and some of the acting..) quite a bit. The cinematography is really nice too, great shots of mountains and forests highlighting guerilla warfare terrain and the snow-bound scenes really shine.
I've been called "right-wing" but more libertarian and gen-x and this movie is great for the reasons you pointed out. It's not all "rah rah, patriotic winning!" like older war movies. It humanizes the enemy, but still recognizes that he's the enemy.
The personal journeys of all the Wolverines is something you don't see in many movies, like how the most scared of the group turns the most bloodthirsty, after actually drinking the blood of his first kill. The arcs these characters travel is just... Damn. You don't see any of this kind of things in movies before or since, which is why it's both a masterpiece and a classic.
Exactly one aspect of the movie I liked was the villains weren't mustache twirling maniacs they were just guys and not really villains other than Brechenko. Bella and Strelnikov were just guys trying to get their job done and keep their men alive. Strelnikov even says in the meeting that targeting civilians for the actions of partisans is foolish with his fox and chicken analogy.
I was a kid in the 80s, when I saw it. We would play in the woods with toy guns pretending to fight Soviet invaders. Year later grown up me became a Russian speaker, and went on regular visits to the former Soviet Union.
Were they hopefully explained how effectively the Soviets could rely on locals in sussing out partisans. The OSS put a massively amateur plan in motion in the 50s when they paratrooped Polish and Baltic soldiers for subversive actions in the vain and false hope that locals would be supportive. In reality, whomever the Soviets didn't outright execute they sent to the far side of the country. These paratroopers for unknown reasons agreed to carry US dollars in hopes of bribing people so resistance networks can be built. By 1953 the Spetznaz was keenly who the US would send and how to capture them.
Thanks for the posting the video. Well put together. 👍
The work and attention to detail to make this video has earned a sub. Excited for your channel to grow! Hope to seem more like this!
The biggest problem with the Soviet invasion of the United States in the film is that within 15 minutes of the Soviet paratroopers sneaking in disguised as a commercial transport, they somehow have tanks, armored personnel carriers, and self propelled anti-aircraft guns going through McDonalds drive thru windows. Apparently all of those vehicles just materialized out of the ground, lol.
No no they where all just hiddin in cargo traliers just a whole battlion chilling in a few contianers no biggy.
Bro was watching an 80s action movie and thought it was gonna be realistic smh
I like how Canada is one of the countries that actually had plans to invade the U.S. lol
Considering Canada is a province of China, it makes sense they would plan something like that.
The Irony is that in WW2, if England fell or capitulated to Hitler, the US would "Invade" Canada and Canada would "Surrender " to the US, to keep Canada from falling under German control. Because the Canadians would rather surrender to the US than the Germans.
Kind of revenge for the USA actually having plans to invade Canada in the 1930s.
It's fair enough - the USA had plans for invading Canada (and it's maybe a little more accurate to say that Canada and the USA had plans FOR invading, than to say they planned TO invade: the differences are subtle, but it's the difference between actually intending to carry those plans out, and just making the plan and having it ready in the event that some condition were to ever make such an invasion necessary or desirable!)
And, it's fair enough, given that the USA - or, at least, some US state militias - actually invaded (disastrously) British Canada, as recently as the War of 1812! It's weird what two hundred years of history does to change things: hostilities like that between the UK and Canada vs. the USA seem kind of strange and unthinkable in a post world-war world, where the three nations now have long histories of working together as allies! In 1812, when the American revolution was still a recent event, the USA was still an insecure and unproven experiment with no notable economic, political, cultural, or military influence or power yet, the Napoleonic Wars hadn't yet altered European history forever, and the British Empire was really finding its stride as the world's major and virtually unchallengeable superpower, chances of war between Canada and the USA were not just dangerously real and constant, but actually broke into open hostility and warfare more than once!
@@pietrayday9915 The US had a plan to invade Canada back in WW2. Canada was still part of the British Empire in WW2 so if England Fell technically Canada would be come part of Nazi Germany. So the US cooked up a plan where the US would "Invade" Canada and Canada would "Surrender "to the US. technically. Because most Canadian would rather have the US invade them than Germany. This was all on paper of course.
I seen it like 100 times. It’s not cringe. It’s awesome!
Yes!!!
Definitely, the way I see it, it’s the most realistic of the 80’s action movies tbh, pretty dark toned tbh. Pretty much everyone dies, come on. It’s a movie, not a Tom Clancy novel. I love the detail they put into everything. And it’s like a time capsule of 80’s Cold War paranoia. It’s not realistic in the basic premise sure, but the Soviets might have been able to do this to Europe. They weren’t the weak Russian army today, they had weight and the Atlantic is a long way. The fear was real, this just brought it to American eyes.
Just like The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai!!!
Might seem crazy today but in the 1980s the cuban military was one best equipped and largest in the americas after the US.
Cuba was also very active in battle. Ethiopia Angola ect.
Not really
Had some old Soviet tanks and armor
Olds planes
Everyone was to have a rifle to repel American attack but doubt there was that many
Saying "2nd in the Americas" is like bragging you came second in a race where you were only lapped a dozen times rather than 20.
@@ComicGladiator yeah im aware of that but when you cinsider cubas this little island of 10 mlliion vs. The rest of the americas thats pretty impressive.
@@tomhenry897 I love how you Western youngsters nowadays gobble up every bit of propaganda that paints your enemies as five steps out of the Iron Age while you're *of course* in the Space Age, ignoring and dismissing anyone who tries to bring you back to reality.
I’ve lived in Southern California on the west coast my whole life, and driving east into the interior of America, even to Arizona, under peacetime conditions with restaurants and fuel stations along the way is an ordeal. Any American who was taken a road trip will agree.
Now imagine trying to advance a military force into Colorado 😂 it’s absolutely bonkers
And you have to also factor in that during the '80s, there was a lot less development in many stretches of rod between major population centers. Even as recent as 10 years ago the stretches of road once you've left Bakersfield and before you got to the outskirts of the Bay Are was empty, just the occasional farm or ranch but not much else.Now those unpopulated stretches start much further out with housing developments popping up in what once used to be empty land.
in the film its stated they invaded through canada and mexico and split the country in half between the rockies and mississippi river. they didnt move in from the coasts. the scenario was quite plauseable in 1984 if you factor in the collapse of NATO and other supporting nations as told in the film
@@thebusybuilder4071 the Mexican border to Colorado is just as big of a distance as the west coast to Colorado, maybe even further
@FoxWolfWorld the initial forces were air dropped to form a beachhead and hold the area till the conventional forces moved in. The BMDs seen earlier in the film reflect that. A few days later the t72s and zsu 23s showed up
Also the Col mentioned they came in disguised as commercial charter flights .
ua-cam.com/video/5Qc8jJ0TjSY/v-deo.htmlsi=9slpKSjf3jUdyH6h
Fantastic video! Subscribed!
Very cool video, nice work
Let's appreciate how well the cap of the Russian major fit the Lt Colonel. 😃😄👍
I remember seeing an 80s miniseries where the russians attacked a radar or missile installation in Alaska, probably as a setup for a saturation missile attack. Wish I remembered the name.
That film was “Word War lll”. Soviets invading Alaska to take control of the oil pipeline. A two part tv miniseries made in 1982. Stars Rock Hudson, Brian Keith, David Soul, and Cathy Lee Crosby. I remember watching it when it came out. I was 11 at that time and it was a big deal when it aired as we were still living at the height of the Cold War. Another tv movie that had a dramatic effect on us was 1983’s “The Day After”. Over 100 million viewers watched it and it scared the hell out of us on the realist possibility of Nuclear War.
@@bwitte6204 -Yes, that's it! And 'World War III' would be one of the three other '80s Cold War films I know of that shared a very similar invasion premise to 'Red Dawn', with the others being the Chuck Norris action film 'Invasion: USA' (which, like 'Red Dawn', was a Cuban invasion), and 'Amerika' (starring Chris Krisofferson, and featuring a nonviolent Soviet invasion....)
'The Day After' really left a mark on us back in the '80s - it was pretty grim stuff, nightmare fuel for the kiddies thanks to a fairly realistic portrayal of the consequences of nuclear war. I remember a class project at the time where we got a roadmap of our city and mapped out the zones of a typical Soviet nuke aimed at a nearby industrial area, with the effects of the blast and fallout, etc. in each zone, and our school marked with a little star to show which level of post-apocalyptic horror we could expect even if we somehow made it to the bomb shelter under the school in time (and ducked-and-covered when we saw the flash, naturally!) The verdict was pretty grim: the school would have been rubble, and the bomb shelter probably wouldn't have been much protection, with gruesome deaths for even "sheltered" nuke victims at that range due to radiation burns, radiation poisoning, and the effects of the shock and pressure waves alone within a few days.
Pretty dark and sobering stuff for a class of 10-year-olds, but that was normal for the Cold War era! :D It's no wonder my generation turned out as cynical and pessimistic as it did, only to wander a post-Soviet era of relative peace in a cocoon of vague shock and disbelief: we were pretty convinced none of us would survive the 20th century!
Thanks for the summary of the movie and its likelihood.
Excellent video
One of my favorite movies.
It always stood out to me because great effort was put into replicating Russian military equipment, not just rebadged US machines.
They did a great job with all the VisMods, especially the BTR's and BMP's....the T-72 at the gas station was good, but the road wheels had M-60 written all over them :)
I wouldn't expect anyone who describes anything as "cringe" to understand 80s movies. That's how they were back then. You had to be there to understand it.
Top Gun was also 80's. The difference in production quality, writing, acting and directing is like night and day. I'm 44 and I remember being greatly entertained by all sorts of cheesy 80's stuff, and Red Dawn was one of them...
Thinks back to the movie Commando, yup, I miss that 80's cringe.
Yes, as in cringe. Cheesy cringe is always cheesy cringe. A lot of good movies came from the 80s that aged far better
@@b.p.879 I'm also 44.. loved Top Gun and Red Dawn.. still do
This was great, thanks!
Wow great video nice work!!!!
The movie Red Dawn is FREAKING AWESOME!!!! I've seen it at least a thousand times. I'm old enough that I went to the theater to see it. A classic.
Agreed!!
It’s interesting to see that the plain states where nukes were dropped, that the armies from the south ended up in this area after their charge up north. Nuclear weapons back then had garbage targeting systems so the nukes themselves had a massive destructive yield to shore up if the nuke missed its target completely. Meaning it could fly 25 miles off its target and still destroy it. They didn’t say much about fallout and nuclear winter in the US because those would have been major problems for our army and theirs alone and no one wants to see people hide out in buildings dying slowly to radiation poisoning. We can thank Threads and The Day After for that stuff.
Also, we could have retaliated against the soviets because they didn’t take out all our nukes, as we had submarines and we still had NORAD in the Colorado Mountains. Not to mention we have various satcom aircraft that could act as strategic command should the President and higher ups be killed. Could have nuked Nicaragua and the other countries down south that took part in the invasion and cut off their lifeline home. Lots of alternative choices to “even” things up lol.
Of course this would probably make the movie 4 hours long and we wouldn’t get to see the Wolverines kick ass so much as see stuffy military men working on strategic targets in fortified bases and weathering the pros and cons of their actions. I personally love the movie and it’s bittersweet ending. Wolverines!
Very good comment!
By 1985 (when the movie was set) or so, the targeting error for US ICBMs had been fixed and the CEP was down to 800 ft. The USSR 's were officially similar (ss-19), but I've always suspected it was worse than the official reporting.
We exploded 1200 nukes at the Nevada Test Site just northwest of Vegas. No nuclear winter. No mass radiation deaths. Nevada didn't disappear
Looking at the Ukraine war, it's painfully obvious that even a surprise attack from the south would not get anywhere close to these theories of rapid advance. In reality the Russian alliance here would quickly overstretch their supply lines and only get about 100-150 miles into the US...which only places their forces half way to Houston.
If it hadn't been from Hollywood I would've chalked it up to typical European underestimation of the size of the US (we're not immune to it ourselves).
@@pax6833 Logistics are often forgotten and not just in movies.
Nice analysis. Thanks!
I recall an article in Rolling Stone when this movie was coming out about how they produced ersatz Soviet vehicles. We didn't have easy access to Hinds &c then so they took what they had and added sheet metal to get the right look. The Hind in particular looked very good. It had to as during the Cold War lots of people knew how to spot Warsaw Pact kit.
The Hind looks very real
@@floydlooney6837 if I recall, and it’s been a lot of years, they based them on Aerospatiale Pumas. There was a ZSU 23-4 but I don’t remember what they based that on
I heard their Soviet props were so good they got pulled over by the CIA asking where the hell they got Soviet gear
The Hind-A replica helicopters were so good they ended up being reused for a bunch of other 1980s movies. The most famous ones that comes to mind are a few Rambo movies
About the map. In the 80’s there was a Black Nationalist group that was about the receive arms from Quadafi. The Elrukins. I’m sure that I miss spelled that and in Tennessee there’s a place called Oak Ridge and that’s where they develop nuclear weapons. That could be 2 of the answers for that map.
You're right. El Rukin made news in the eighties because of their ties to Islam. If I remember right, they evolved into The Vice Lords, a widespread criminal organization who's territory stretches from Illinois down into regions of the south.
@@skindianu Also the black p stone nation. Mostly found in prisons.
Quadafi did give arms to AIM
The Indian movement
They were violently put down by mostly tribal police and FBI
the amount of actual logistics it would take to invade America is beyond any countries current capabilities. the Red Dawn remake is even more implausible. saw this original when i was a kid and at the time it was actually scary to me, but in reality, it was just thinly veiled propaganda by Milius.
*Looks at southern border
@@chuckfinley3152hmm i wonder who created the conditions for that 🤔
Exactly. "An army moves on its stomach" is the old line -- obviously more about food, but the concept is the same.
Russian military logistics, as shown by the current events in Ukraine, are lousy. Always have been. And the U.S. is a bigger place than anyone realizes.
@@davidobrien2541 Russia is good when they are the defenders and let scorched earth and General Winter do the fighting. They dont have a good history with offensive campaigns. Americas was supplying them with their arsenal in WWII, and even then tens of millions were dying in their finest hour. Good luck with an overseas amphibious invasion. Look to Russo-Japanese War to see how those logistics work.
I appreciate the level of historical detail this video provides. I was unaware just how well the writers did their homework.
Awesome movie! Great analysis!
Very well done.👍👍👌👌💪💪
Love that Yugoslav map, and we actually had the FLQ bombings in the 60s and constant separatist movements in Quebec (which only really settled down in the 90s), so not surprised to see is called out there
I remember this movie being a good alternate history action genre for it’s time. I never thought that the Soviet Union would ever have invaded us, the concern was always nuclear war and proxy wars. Thanks for bringing back some memories and for doing the video. You did a great job!
Subscribed!
This video confirms what I have long felt: that the best features of 1984's Red Dawn are the headlines which flash across the screen before the opening credits. Thank you for mentioning Stanislav Petrov. I would be interested in your take on TV miniseries around this time. One might be Amerika (note spelling, no connection to the works of Franz Kafka) starring Kris Kristofferson and Sam Neill. However, I would be even more interested in an evaluation of World War III, starring Rock Hudson and Brian Keith as the American and Soviet leaders respectively. In that, it is specifically Alaska which is invaded for the sake of oil.
my grandpa fought the mujahedeen during the Soviet Afghan war and the Civil War (he was in the Afghan Army)
also my uncles
Based grandpa
Honestly, the movie wound up sounding a lot more well thought out than I thought it might lol. Thank you for a very interesting video.
God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
You did a very good job synopsizing the state of world tensions during the latter part of the Cold War in the first half of the 80’s. It was indeed a time of extreme tension.
I was an American military brat who went to high school in then-West Berlin from 81-85. It’s a permanent imprint on me.
I was 12 when this movie came out. It was really powerful because on the news every day was how big the Soviet army was and how many troops and tanks and missiles that they had. Yeah now we know that was CIA disinformation to keep the military industrial complex going. But as a kid I would go to sleep after my prayers wanting the Soviets to bomb us when everyone was asleep. I remember the times in school where we had to curl up against the walls of the hallway in preparation for a nuclear war. I was just a kid but it was real at the time.
No, it wasn't disinformation. What we didn't have solid data on was just how crappy all the gear that the Soviets had, was. We got our first solid look at that in 1991, but even then, supposedly that was the export monkey models.
The Soviet Red Army was actually very large and powerful, however, what they didn't have was the logistical capacity (Cargo planes, ships, etc) to move hardly any of it across either of the oceans.
That is why and ground fighting done in WW3 would have been done almost entirely in Europe.
Not really disinformation. They did have a very large military. However the capabilities of their hardware, training, strategy, tactics, and logistics were all lacking in some ways we weren’t aware of. This became apparent by the absolute destruction of the Iraqi army in 1991, which was a Soviet equipped military with combat experience under its belt. I think historically we don’t appreciate how the Persian Gulf War contributed to the demise of the USSR. It was a glimpse into what could’ve happened in a conventional conflict in Europe, and the USSR came out looking really bad. In 1991 the United States and its allies defeated the 4th largest army in the world in 100 hours. It was a military achievement on par with Alexander the Great.
The other problem the USSR had was logistics. They struggled to supply their army in Afghanistan. Supplying an army in the western hemisphere was simply well beyond their capabilities. US air and naval forces would’ve made getting supplies in the needed amounts across the ocean completely impossible.
All that leaves is nukes, and that’s ultimately a mutual destruction situation for all participants. Even with that being said, US infrastructure was more extensive and had better redundancies. The US has farmland in quantity and we can move a lot of things using the Mississippi River, so even complete destruction of rail and highway infrastructure wouldn’t completely bring logistics to a halt for the US. Even in an all out nuke fest, there’s reason to believe the US would be in a position to recover more rapidly from such a scenario than the USSR could.
@@NickCorruptionlogistics was probably their biggest limiting factor, though there were some other significant ones as well. Some of their strategic doctrines weren’t great either. The Soviet equipped Iraqi army tried some of those doctrines in 1991. We know how that turned out.
@@jamesp8164 Yeah, Air Land Battle completely wrecked Deep Battle Doctrine.
This movie just shows how much of a living hell invading the United States would be.
A small percentage maybe. But I think it'd be a whole lot harder thanks to all of us Right wing folks. More resilient than these kids. Plus our kids today would be crying their phones don't work and they're hungry. It'd be that same gen x right wing citizen savages that saves their asses.
Hi, great video. Your so close to a new subscriber. Keep it up sir.
Nice video
13:29 It's also implied in the film that Russia nuked China accounting for the massive losses. When asked what happened Powers Boothe's character throws his drink in the campfire causing a mini fireball/mushroom cloud.
14:30 Washington may actually refer to the state of Washington, and not DC, as the bulk of the US nuclear arsenal was (and still is) stockpiled there. Fun fact: it's against the law to build any sort of fallout shelter in Washington. During the Cold War, the state government believed that such construction would be interpreted by the Soviets as a direct preparation to a nuclear war, and trigger a preemptive strike. So, in case you live in Washington, and WW3 breaks out, good luck!
19:40 Austria and Northern Italy would've been targeted by the Hungarian People's Army, with warheads provided by the Soviets. Not only Vienna, but several other Austrian cities, such as Graz, Villach, or Italians such as Piacenza, Verona, and even Munich, West Germany would've been targeted by Hungarian SCUD batteries. In the aftermath, Hungarian armored troops would've engaged the Italian "Ariete" armored division in Northern Italy, while Hungary basically ceases to exist in a salvo of nuclear strikes. Soviet plans suggested that Soviet air force units may occupy Hungarian airfields after they've been nuked, but I'm not sure whoever had this idea was in his right mind.
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Ok, important question, what song was used in the "soviet invades the US" portion of the video.
Technically right now the invasion through Mexico is happening right now with the amount of military age males being let loose in America
Hundread times more realistic than Man in the high castle.
Man in the High Castle also deals with alternative time lines, different universes, and other science fiction elements, so of course it's not as realistic.
It's still bloody well done though.
That's actually untrue. Man in the High Castle had the balls to uncover the weak federation of the US where states went along with being a foreign protectorate than being in the US. Ever since the Nazi linked and German Sovereign Citizens Movement became a thing in the US , one should seriously think about social cohesion in the US.
That show was great till the final seasons writers screwed it up
@@EnclaveOfficer1776 agreed, I was very happy to finally get some of the reveals of the scientist's experimentation into the multiverses, explaining a little more of the rules of the story universe, but the story overall really suffered.
One of the best videos I watched recently, but somehow only has 60k views now
My favorite I could watch it every day or anytime it's on
Growing up in the 1980s, when we went to bed every night expecting a Soviet attack, this movie felt pretty realistic for us impressionistic teenagers at the time. Director John Milius, who co-wrote the screenplay, got blackballed in Hollywood because of it though.
Why? It had every element. It even laughed at gun nuts.
The ZSU-23 AA tank and the MIL-24 HIND helicopters were not real, they were another armored vehicle (though I cant recall which) and helicopter (a French helo if I recall) were mocked up, but they did a pretty damn good job, as both look like the real thing
The cockpit windows just don't cut it for me, but still great scenes.
They got pulled over by the CIA because of them
@@b.p.879 Early model hinds looked like that, the bubble canopies would have been in use by time the movie was set though
what song starts playing at 19:18?
Great vid also what’s the music used in this?
I caught the end of some movie where Americans were standing around a Russian officer and his sub, they were kicking him out like they had won some conflict. I always thought that it was the end to Red Dawn, so I never bothered watching it because of that cornball ending. When I did watch it, I was pleasantly surprised. Now I'm trying to figure out what that bad movie was.
Was it ‘The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming’ from 1966?
@@Mr_Bunk lol that may be it. Either way thanks for bringing it to my attention.
It's way better than the new one that came out.
Powers Boothe was an incredible actor.
"What's a flank?"
"I need a drink."
In the movie the pilot says that the soviets moved 60 division, 3 army groups over the bering straight. As far as I know the soviets NEVER had those amphibious capacities. Not even close. And the other point was and is, is that the Russian side of bering straight don't got ANY kind of infrastructure. The next harbor with those infrastructure and capacities is Vladivostok. You would definitely see when one million soldiers mobilize in one city and go onto ships with tanks and so on. Nice movie but no not realistic.
The logistics involved would make German 1941-1942 logistics seem easy
There aren't even railroads out in the Russian far east, let alone harbors.
@@pax6833 about 1000 km around the bering straight on russian side there is no street, railway or other connection. Just some airfields. Even bigger ships need harbor infrastructure. So Vladivostok would be the only hub in the east for something like that but the distance between Vladivostok and Alaska is to big for such a small number of amphibious landingcrafts. 60 divisions mean what? 1.2 million at least...
Today Russia's one aircraft carrier hasn't left port for 10yrs, last time it did it was towed by 2 tugs. Its also caught fire twice ($millions in damage), in dry dock
You're sadly wrong about Vladivostok. It was a closed city with a no-fly zone. You would have not seen the giant mobilization. That doesn't mean it could have worked. Millius was so much in love with the idea the USSR would invade the US that, like many other things, he ignored mobilization in Vladivostok was impossible for another reason.
Ever since the Sino-Soviet split and Mao calling the USSR northern imperialists, a mobilization on this level would have translated in Beijing to a full-scale war against them, and launched nukes on a sufficient level that had made Siberia non-traversable for the foreseeable future at the time.
One of my favorite movies, I loved it as a kid!
I saw this movie in a small northern Midwestern town theater. The audience gave it a standing ovation.
I was stationed in England at RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge which was the A10 base during the 1983 war games. There really isn't anyway to emphasize enough how close to disaster we were. The Soviet navy was conducting their own war games in the North Sea during that time and add in the cruise missles that were being deployed in Europe. The tone of the movie was dead on. However the idea that the Soviets could have invaded the US through Mexico was patently ridiculous. Any nuclear strike at the time would've involved a much bigger exchange. Getting that number of troops into the US would have been impossible.
Closer to The Day After.
I'll correct one thing. The Boy scouts were a Para Military force originally. Plus it was wise for the Soviet commander to want to know their whereabouts. They would be instrumental in intel gathering and local land nav.
In Europe, they expected territories fallen to soviet control to operate under some sort of soviet military occupational government overseeing what remained of the municipal government and civdef groups. Municipal services for the civilian population would have to go on, and this could force local town councils etc to at least cooperate with whatever soviet authority was placed on them.
This commander would be interested in keeping their own rear services secure. Mechanized front units would have moved on as soon as organized resistance was broken, to be replaced with the soviet equivalent of security troops, logistics troops and other third line types.
Remnants of the regular forces and home guard forces could remain in the area, the mechanized units would not want to stop to root them all out. It was legal to form civilian partisan units, and some plans included pre-made partisan chains of command, communication lines and small stocks. Like handing out an SMG to anyone who wanted one and was ready to wear an arm band.
Invasion through the southern border? Wait I’ve seen this one before.
I was stationed in the FRG in '74-75, capstone mission being the defense of the Fulda Gap.
A couple of things I noticed in the movie: The Cuban "advisor" directed a detail to raid sporting goods outlets to seize the BATFE Form 4473 to locate privately owned weapons, and, the Russian Commissar would have known that making Eagle Scout is avidly pursued by ambitious boys (and their Stage Dads) all over the world, due to Boy Scouts being very much international in composition. Look up how many American presidents and astronauts have been Eagle Scouts.
Here I thought you were aware that the pioneer movement in the Eastern Bloc was built on the remnants of the Scouts movement, hell some of them even became devout communists. For the sake of accuracy, please don't call international or global, we were pioneers, not scouts.
Red Dawn is a 'you had to have grown up to have grown up in the 80s' to appreciate it. Sure life was awesome, but the spectre of nuclear Armageddon was ever present. The literal first concept of YOLO. I was 7, my mom saw a power transformer arc and blow up at night. Brief light as daylight flash. She yelled at everyone to get in the basement (homemade bomb shelter). It was a different time.
there is one very important point that you have overlooked, when it comes to an actual ground invasion of the United States, there is a HUGE problem that ANY country would have, you touched on 1 of those problems, with oceans on either side that are totally controlled by our Navy which would easily lock down both oceans and ANYTHING that flew over would be shot down, and any vessels that would sail on or under would be quickly sunk. however IF any enemy did in fact reach our shores in significant numbers the biggest problem that would be encountered and likely not able to be defeated is the populace of the United States, is in fact by far the most heavily armed private populace on the planet with a larger percentage of us being hunters, or in a war time situation you can switch the name hunter for sniper, during WWII General Tojo of Japan wanted to push the U.S.Navy back to the west coast of the U.S. to facilitate an invasion of the West coast, Admiral Yamamoto convinced the Emperor that this would be a terrible mistake as he said "There will be a rifle behind every blade of grass" ANY country attempting an invasion of the U.S. will need a HUGE army to reach the shore in order to overcome our military our police forces and our citizenry, i would guess that an army of more than 1000 million would be needed but somehow doubt that would be enough!
Yes! That is true that the armed American populace would likely be a major factor in any invasion. We see in the modern day that America's enemies are to some degree mitigating this risk by turning the US against itself, and attempting to foment civil war and unrest. That way, if a country did invade, a lot of the country would be somewhat supportive of them and thus the armed component wouldn't be as big an issue.
@@historyatitsfinest7112 You have got to be kidding me, you do not understand Americans at all do you? yes while it is true that we Americans do argue and fight with each other, (How could we not we have a population of more than 350 million) but NOTHING galvanizes this country faster and causes us to come together and do some good old fashioned ass whooping than a foreign attack on OUR country and people, despite our differences those will be set aside faster than the speed of light when an OUTSIDER provokes us, again look at WWII 85% of the American people wanted NOTHING to do with the wars that were occurring in Europe and the far East during the late 1930's and early 1940's, but after the attack on Pearl Harbor and the declaration of war on us by Germany Italy and Japan, we picked ourselves up, wiped the blood off our face and whooped ass in a 2 front war that only we were capable of doing, and emerged as the dominate superpower on the planet and we have not looked back since, even being divided from within, attack our country and people, and we will put our differences aside and take care of that enemy BEFORE we go back to fighting among-st ourselves. look at our history, WWI and WWII are bot prime examples, we wanted NOTHING to do with either one of those wars, but once we got dragged into those fights we quickly whipped ass and came home to do our own internal fighting.
@@keithcharboneau3331 I am American and I understand Americans perfectly well. I really hope you are right. I was not saying that the divide and conquer strategy would work, just that it is currently what is being attempted by America's enemies. I think you're right if there was a military invasion then American patriotism would take over. But if it's a more subtle thing to weaken the country (question elections, raise polarization, etc), that could weaken the US without an invasion.
@@historyatitsfinest7112 yes you are right, and I think that MANY Americans are finally waking up to the fact that America's PRIMARY enemy is the Democratic party, every bad, horrible and evil thing that our country has and is being accused and blamed for is DIRECTLY and SOLELY the responsibility of the DEMOKKKRAT party, although they have for the past 70 years, to a certain amount of success, have been blaming OUR COUNTRY for THEIR CRAP, the country DID NOT do the things that they done, but they are trying, (AND WITH A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SUCCESS) convincing enough people that they are benefactors, instead of the perpetrators that they REALLY ARE. As Americans, WE QUESTION EVERYTHING, and only the already won over minds are not courageous enough or care so little, ans to NOT QUESTION the election of 2020, the DEMOKKKRATS have been cheating to win elections for decades, but the problem they have is with the 2016 election, the 1 election that they believed that they had cheated enough to win, but did not win, now I recommend to you that you find a movie called 2,000 mules, watch it with an open mind and then ask yourself why people are questioning it, then watch some national news, and notice the HUNDREDS of ACTUAL arrests going on TODAY all over the country for voter fraud in the 2020 election!
Actually the Japanese did have two invasion plans for the USA. And one of them could have worked.
We all know about Midway. Japan wanted midway as a stepping stone to the main stepping stone of Hawaii.
How there was another location that almost became disastrous for the USA in world war 2. The Aleutian island campaign
The Japanese launch an air attack on Dutch Harbor. Then landed by sea on Adak, Kiska and Attu islands. The Japanese waited until the an us troops were on an island and then by passed them taking another island hoping that the harsh winter will kill most of the us soldiers or they would be heavily demoralized. USA quickly realize the trap and Asked the Eskimos for help. They agreed. They were taught on to how to use rifles and other types of military equipment. They were brought to the trapped troops and taught them their ways. The Japanese where so certain that this plan was possible that they started setting attu island as an airfield. By the time spring came the us troops launched a counterattack with the Eskimos completely catching the Japanese off guard.
Without the Eskimos the Japanese may have reached Unalaska which would put them in range of attacking Kodiak island and anchorage is in the 500 kilometers radius they had. So alaska has always been a possible invasion point. True Canada would be the unknown. There is another way too but the you will need a naval fleet about 3 times as massive as the USA navy the Everglades
The Soviet invasion map around the 20:30 mark is interesting….the army that reached the rhine would be a shadow force after all the radiation poisoning took effect….and good luck transporting fuel/materials through nuked cities to keep your army supplied. So I doubt they’d pull it off. Small consolation for what would be left of Germany though
The soviet and european NATO side both had units set up for operations in NRBC environments. Like a drive-through shower for platoons. Destroying dispersed and prepared army units with NRBC weapons was hard, no one seemed to plan for saturation bombing the countryside. They expected to use tactical nukes on things like rail junctions, specific troop masses and staging areas.
The goal of the soviets would be to take necessary infrastructure intact from the home guard units securing them before said home guards could blow them up. A home guard troop could have a task to grab their kit and immediately set up on their site, and be told to blow the site at their own discretion if they failed to do so.
Does anyone know what's the music at 19:20?
You know, the piano.
Most of the film was shot in and around Las Vegas New Mexico. If you've never been it's quite a beautiful area butting up against the south side of the Carson National Forest.