I've hated this since SL release, they realised during BFA there wasn't a significant need for personals and people genuinely didn't push them even though they had designed them into toolkits. So as you mentioned they forced raiding/M+ into a state where they expected people to start pressing them. The problem is though in the sense of not being able to just heal this damage yes we lost agency but we gained agency of having to play other peoples classes for them, in having to tell them when to press their defensives. Which I hate with a passion, I want to focus on my toolkit and my abilities I don't want to micromanage other peoples buttons too.
spot on, i really hate having to remind a dps to use a defensive, like ur just rotating ur dps spells why tf is the healer having to use brainpower to remind u
I know you mentioned not wanting to go on too long about this, but I think this is an important topic and deserves the attention the other big healing deep dive got. Thanks for posting this, and I hope they make things less swingy in TWW. Keep at it!!!
No healer keys are such an insult to everyone who has invested time into being a good healer. If it's not a gruelling exhausting experience of perfect gameplay, on high alert for other peoples mistakes to fix, now you're a literal burden to the group to be discarded and replaced with another dps.
nobody on live will pug without healer a 24 EB tyra or a throne or one phase fall yeah the most skilled m+ player in the worlds with tank trinket and a shit tons of off heal can do it and barely make it better than a classic comp
Rot damage is so much more fun to heal imo. It’s the only time you get to really push your hps. I think the solution here is to remove damage reduction/shield externals/cooldowns (like Life Cocoon, Barrier, etc.) or significantly reduce them. This will allow blizzard to make mechanics you can survive without damage reductions and keep these cds relegated to emergency uses, rather than requirements to survive mechanics. Increase the cooldowns of defensives across the board but keep their power. Again, this allows them to be good emergency buttons but you won’t have them up for every mechanic, allowing blizzard to make mechanics that don’t kill you without a defensive. Increase the strength of throughput healing cooldowns like ascendancy or tranq, while reducing the strength of non cooldown heals. This would allow blizz to design mechanics that don’t one shot you but still puts pressure on healers to keep people alive. Increasing the healing of throughput cds tight mechanic timings that *do* require you to top people up fast but they won’t have to make *every* mechanic require it. This would also make throughput healers like druids, shamans, and mistweavers more valuable, as at least in raid, raid-wide damage reduction cooldowns are in high demand, which those classes don’t have.
Rot auras work best for raid because it's easier to balance the healers around it. With M+, especially in S2, it just felt oppressive basically needing to sit there for 3-5 minutes straight needing to mash healing cds on cooldown. You often get little time to dps and some healers have a much easier time in M+ with countering rot auras. I'll take Holy Priest and Disc Priest. Disc Priest casts Power Word Radiance and just mashes dps buttons to heal through rot auras. But on a Holy Priest you need to manually flash heal/holy word serenity people one at a time. You have some AOE heals, but they're on 10-12s cds, and you only have so many Holy Word Sanctifys. To heal the same fight a Holy Priest needs to cast way more healing spells than a Disc Priest.
We chose to be healers because it requiered more responsibilities BUT they were mor rewarding because of the control we had on our groups, now it feels like no longer we have that control but rather extra duties and sweat for having less agency... it feels really awful. Idk how y'all feel but for the first time ever I really got bored of healing and am not looking forward to do it all over again in S4, idk I cba anymore it's too much atm.
M+ MW main: I have a group-wide 5-man Lay On Hands every 40 seconds, and I have my Celestial every minute. I also have a kick on a 15s cooldown, an AOE stun, Ring of Peace for Control. And I have 3-4 active defensive buttons as well as 3-5 passive defensives in the trees. The group often has a VDH with illuminated sigils, a Fire Mage which cannot die due to their defensive toolkit and has a mass barrier. Add Aug, and I do more healing. You could effectively swap my kit for any of the other healers and the answer would be the same: tons of very strong cooldowns on top of very defensive toolkits with a group that is stacked with control and defensives as well as leech and some off-healing. This is nuts.
When I clicked this video my first thought was "When was the last time I thought healing was peak enjoyment" and I thought of Castle Nathria and i'm so happy you mentioned that. Also while I know there's so many that bash cataclysm for all it's flaws. As a heal main it was fun, especially the first tier and it was a surprise that was mentioned too. Dragonflight healing has being fun but it's not the best and I haven't being the biggest fan of wotlk healing. I just dislike wack-a-mole healing 0 to 100 really fast spamming your most powerful spells every gcd topping everyone to full. Healing is best for me when there's a flow of low/mid/high power spells used in combo to slowly fill players health up. Using the stronger spells for emergencies/dangerous times at the cost of mana. And you hit the nail on the head of why lower tier difficulties are struggling with healing and the higher tiers not so much. There's way to many defensives. It's probably a hot take, but I really enjoy healing the trio boss in Everbloom simply because the damage players receive isn't burst but also the damage is significant I can really push my healing and how my spec is supposed to function.
They messed up the Stamina vs power scaling. Power always outscales the stamina gain ilvl/ilvl, but now ever more due to the improved talent tree. Possible solutions could include (numbers are examples): - Healing/absorb power reduced by 50% - Reducing burst damage by 55%. (get away from oneshot meta) - Reducing all other damage by 45%. (proportionally more rot damage to get away from defensive meta) Overall more HP compared to damage intake, to reduce healer stress. Sadly this change is probably more complex as it affects all different kind of talents and class abilities, and we can't expect them to do this for S4.
And as a Holy Priest, I’m not thrilled they greatly increased the cooldown of Mass Dispell. It’s hell enough already when most groups don’t think to use their defensives or much less any cleanse/decurse to give me a break. (Don’t get me started on interrupts, if they’re not tanking they won’t stop tunnel rotation to help out the tank). The dev’s need to review this video. Thanks for posting ❤
they gotta cut a lot of spells from what some classes currently have rn, its really not new/returning player friendly and sure, us who play the game a lot might not care and just adapt but, is there really a need for this? think legion class design having 8000 passives and 3 spells was fine
@riptorrz as a recently returning player after ~1 year break. There's too many buttons. I've got 32 combinations bound and that's not enough for certain specs yet alone pvp. Tbh. I cba and play a warrior atm
As a 3.5k RShaman that primarily does M+ this is my take on your assessment: (A) Blizz is continuously making the mistake of balancing for Raid content. And then when it has unintended consequences to the other aspects of the game (M+ and PvP) they compensate. Which in turn messes up Raid balance. Its a catch 22 situation that can ONLY be stopped if they separate M+ and Raid properly. From the start of the expansion. Things like "XXX does YYY when not in raid content". It should be baseline for all abilities. (B) Raids: You might argue that damage is very spiky. But as you already showed in your video there was a change from "rot damage" to "spiky damage". I dont see ANY problem with healer power if you simply backtrack to rot damage once again. In Raid content, healers and DDs might have powerful CDs, but they cant use them continuously over a 7 minute fight. So if you have rot damage AND spiky damage. You tune down the spiky damage such that it does say... 50% of a persons HP. And the challenge would be to have everyone at 70% or more during heavy rot in preparation for the "bang". Do that every 30s and you got yourself a heavy HPS requirement with less 1-shots. (C) M+ : The current problem with M+ are the 1-shots. You practically dont need a healer if deff CDs are managed properly and you survive the 1-shots. I propose the following: In addition to adding more rot damage and less spiky ST heavy damage, simply CAP the damage after a certain key level. Say... a +27 in S3 DF. After that, damage scales no longer. Instead, you double the scaling factor for HP. Such that the limiting factor for key scaling is not damage taken, but DPS. All while keeping healers busy "healing". No need to nerf the damage at all. That way, if a DD knows for certain that he will live the 1-shot with out deff CDs... then the importance of those CDs is less. However, because HP of mobs would scale faster and faster with key level, the importance of offensive CDs would be much more important. Especially because while the healer could theoretically heal the whole party back in 0.2s with CDs or spam heals... the longer the fight drags on... the faster he will run out of mana. So the skill would be efficient healing and perfect CD management. But in the end, its Blizzard choice to design dungeons as they are. With things like: Yazma Soulrend. WM tree boss, EB mage boss... EB "spinny boyz"... They could have designed that damage differently. Like the 2nd boss of EB (in contrast to the 3rd mage and last 4rth boss). Where you have continuous rot damage together with ST damage in the form of spells. That is a challenge for ANY healer. And there are no 1-shots there, unless you are targeted by 2 spells at once (which you can interrupt).
No absolutely not you don't need to separate raid from m+ and they will never do that because it's a bigger mess to balance and newcomers have a mess to learn. This whole post is bad in so, so many ways.
@@Theparadoxd7Explain to me how that would increase the "mess" of balancing? Like: Rets and Mages were recently buffed to improve their performance in Raid content and all of a sudden they bust the M+ meta balancing? Or how RShaman tier set sucks so much for M+ because should they buff it by a fraction of a percent we would be so OP in raid it would not even be funny... I can give you so many examples here... And the solution: For example say that the RShaman 4p tier set has 20% of spreading riptide on M+ but 6% on Raid. EZ. Instead Blizz left RShamans in the gutter in M+. OR... maybe... what happened in S2: you play SP/Mage and are doing just fine in Raid. But you are getting nerfed every week because in M+ we have Exodia. Until you do so little damage you are literally benched in Raid. How is that fair in any way to Raiders? Look, it worked just fine with PvP. When some classes overperform/underperform in PvP blizz does its balance tuning accordingly and it does not affect the Raid. Everyone is happy. And any problems PvP might have are other things (lack of tuning cadence, lack of new content, MMR system... ) but definitely not PvE balance tuning. Just imagine for a second that your specific class was nerfed because somehow it can one-shot people in Arenas, and now you under-perform in Raid and your raid leader decides to bench you for another class. Wouldn't that be unfair somehow? Because that was the PvE vs. PvP situation for years... and it was really annoying. For both parties (PvErs and PvPers). And now, everyone is happy. The results speak for themselves. Also... common... newcomers? The "new player experience" of WoW is atrocious. And End Game is the least of the problems there. Right now, EVERYONE simply goes to WoWHead and copies "M+ talents" or "Raid talents". And maybe, some people tweek the talents by 1 or 2 points at best. All Blizz has to do is balance each ability such that it does its intended damage for the content its in. Like PvP. There are "PvP" talents people copy-paste from WoWHead and learn from PvP streamers, ect... With out affecting PvE in any way. And people that do M+ also do the same right now. They get their M+ talents from WoWHead, they bind buttons you would otherwise not bind in Raid (interrupts and CC anyone?) and watch their favorite streamers do 30+. And they would keep doing the same they do now if you tune M+ player power separate from Raid player power. Simple.
@@fs569 "Rets and Mages ... M+ meta balancing?" "I can give you so many examples here..." "Or how RShaman tier set sucks ...would be so OP in raid it would not even be funny..." For a start Rshaman has never been OP in raid and never will be, they physically can't allow us on equal terms with good healers for more than 2 weeks it seems. And as for tier set it has nothing to do with pve m+/raid divide. They should have listened to the feedback from the very start and changed it to something else hell I've forgotten but Theun and some of the top m+'ers had some great ideas for how to at least make it not suck. As for balancing it really doesn't matter how many "examples you can provide" because it always boils down to "they can fix this by adjusting the talents normally". You don't need to adjust M+ and Raiding seperately as they are BOTH PVE. And doing tuning that way will make something absolutely busted for aoe in M+ but not raids or vice versa because they are bad enough at balancing as is. Absolutely no, this does not end in the sunshine and dreams you think it does. And as I said it makes it even more of a mess for newcomers and yes it's a mmo, steep learning curve deal with it yadayada this is the one area you shouldn't seperate because you can already do this by just balancing single target and aoe talents differently. "benched in Raid. How is that fair in any way to Raiders? " The problem still lies in the tree's design and how they need to make the raid and m+ builds different, then tune the outliers in the build. This is where they fucked up with aura buffing over and over when half the problem was synergy and augs. "Look, it worked just fine with PvP." No shit, because it always made sense for pvp because they wouldn't do the tuning required to 3 way balance single target and aoe. Pve and PVP being differen't always made sense because A) They attract different people B) They function completely differently. Smashing a raid boss and a dungeon boss is the same, smashing trash is the same. Smashing the other teams healer while throwing cc's out, completely different game. "There are "PvP" talents people copy-paste from WoWHead and learn from PvP streamers," They talked about things like this on poddy C or on Max's stream. Basically thats like less than 1% of the playerbase that does that. As crazy as it sounds, like 1% or less changes talents for dungeons or on different bosses on raids, the rest just single build and go. The lfr/normal/heroic and *shudders * some mythic players just wing their builds and when they surveyed or something like that it was only the "hardcore" players who looked up streamers or builds. We think of it as normal but my god apparently it's not and they have to think of these players too. "And they would keep doing the same they do now if you tune M+ player power separate from Raid player power." And they would do that too if they just balanced the aoe and single target talents better and then you don't have to remember "is it in raids or pvp it does x y or z?".
@@Theparadoxd7And that is where you are wrong. Raid and M+ are not the same. That is why Healing Tide Totem heals 100% more when not in a raid group. That is why "close as clutch mates" exists for Aug. That is why the value of PI is not so big in Raids vs. M+. That is why DD defensives used in M+, and designed for M+ bust the Raid. Like the stupid +40% damage & 40% HP. Idea done purely for raids. It completely messed up M+ scene. So in S2 instead of doing it again, they cut it in half, and in S3 they did not even try. Or like every single time they reworked a class in DF. Rets wrecking PvP during S1... Exodia in S2... DH in S3... You are delusional to think that spells, especially healer spells, have the same impact in a 20 man group with more than 1 healer than in a 5 man group where you are the only healer. Just because its called the same, does not make it the same. Its the equivalent to saying that BGs and Arenas are the same because they are both PvP. Delusional. And that is why Blizz does not have the courage to touch things too much. And when they do, its a tiny 5%. Because the unintended consequences can be massive. And sure. They might suck at balancing thats for sure. But every single time Blizzard actually does a good job in balancing classes for Raids... turns out they need to undo their good work because of the trickle down effects it has on other aspects of the game. So we need to stop that. Long story short: If we want change, we need to enable change. If we keep being stubborn about it, we will never exit this cycle and we will for ever have videos like this one complaining about healing being too OP or being too nerfed out. Dont forget, Theun here mentions Slugefist in SL... well.,. in SL M+ was healer AFK expansion. So they buffed healers for the M+ crowd, but then we had this consequence in Raid, so they buffed damage in Raid by 40%, but HP of players by 40%, and then they busted M+ doing so, so they buffed classes once again, which busted Raid again.... and here we are... How do you propose to exit the cycle? Its obvious to me what Blizzards problem is... And as for new comers, stop being delusional. Im not talking about having different trees and skills. Like Healing Tide Totem, you have it both in Raid and in M+ and use it for the same situations. It just heals less in a Raid. Thats all. So expand that concept to more abilities. So if newcomers can adapt to what we have now, they most certainly will if you split M+ and Raid balance tuning.
MW needed a shit ton of defensive because it's the only true melee healer AND this is one of the only reason the class is enjoyable now frankly. now we can heal without fearing for our life the moment we have to stop melee and cast something from the middle of a big pack.
Cool vid, quite the general take from community some specs have it all when it comes to utilities some have none or close to none. I am curious what 4 CDs you are talking about for hunters? I see Survival of the Fittest (2.4 min), Aspect of the turtle (Deflect immune, not a purge of existing dmg, 2.4 min). Then you could consider Exhilaration but this is a heal not eligible for one shot mechanics. Fortitude of the Bear forces you to switch pet for specific OS abilities because you either need lust from Ferocity pet or Leech for better HP sustain. When you compares MW, Rdrood, Mages, Warlocks, DH, there is a reason why they are so meta. It's not so much about the damage, eventhough they have the damage profile that suit the content, it's also how useful they are. Especially true in 5-man content.
Heres what Theun didnt mention about shaman - Healing tide totem is almost useless now because it barely heals anything (in M+). Ancestral Guidance also got nerfed. Shaman has lost its power and why didnt you mention Vesper totem that was bread and butter for shamans in SL? Its not about healing cds being strong, its a terrible, terrible take. Its about game having too many ping-pong mechanics or mechanics that will kill you in few seconds. Also, ret can do 600k wog crits on dps players. With that and great team play you can do w/o a healer to a certain level. This game isnt focused on the elite players who have premades. Majority of players are solo. Defensive or not, 28WCM a witch on forti can chop you down in few seconds. All you can do is send a your healing cds and pray. Or maggot spits. 3 on you - dead. "oh, JuSt Cc ThEm" Wow, didnt think of that, anyway. Nobody can heal you from 10%-100% in half a second. Unless you pre-cast everything since you have God given powers to see the future or its raid specific take(?). And what hunter has 1.2mil hp? In raid maybe, not in M+ where most play Fyrakk tank trinket to not die. I know many hunters who dont play above +25 because they are getting one shot too often. These takes are aimed for premade groups. Try pug healing a +27s and up and watch how weak you feel. Oh, double interrupts and two people got a debuff nobody can dispell? Have fun with that. But of course, you can blame others here. Not the right setup for dungeon, missed interrupt etc. Be realistic, things like these happen and will always be there. Be realistic about these takes not elitist.
The only problem i see, mostly, is the players themselves, you get all the tools that you need to complete the challenges presented and if you don't use them how do you expect do so? It's like going to war without a gun and expect to have better chances at defending yourself compared to the people who do, truth is harsh like it or not, i've learned that in the hardest of ways. Now, that is not to say that the game is perfectly designed and/or balanced and everything from the theory level translates perfectly in game, of course it doesn't and i am also the type of player who may find flaws in designs but i also recognize that most of the times, i noticed that when i had thought something was a design flaw, it was just my misunderstanding of the design, regardless if i liked the design from that stand point it or not. Does this also mean that kits are good enough to represent the fantasy conceptually excluding their in-game balance? Most are but they can be so much more.
hunter has 200k less hp than you say, and only as BM or Surv, BM doesn't even have that HP on Tindral because we have to play freedom pet, and MM is permanently at lower health due to lone wolf, and nobody plays Surv. Hunter also feels remarkably worse because people dont want to press turtle due to losing DPS (or being assigned to turtle at specific times like Tindral beams or Fyrakk Intermission), Exhil is on GCD and only helps recover or heal absorbs not getting 1 shot globalled, and symbol of hope gives exhil cd not survival of the fittest. SotF is on a long 2.4min CD. Thats all we have.
SotF last only 6seconds (same lenght as breath on volocross as an example) it is without talents only 20% damage reduction, on a 3min cooldown. It takes many talent points to get it to 2.4min and 40% damage reduction it still lasts only 6seconds. Turtle is a weak immunity having lots of things just ignore it. Yes we can move in it but we can also be hit by mechanics in it that say iceblock would fully immune.
If one where to review healing and damage mitigation logs for hunters they would realize hunters have the worste healing and dmg mitigation of any spec in the game.
Hi, Theun, interesting points, but I think in comparing holy priest, Shadowlands to dragonflight we have lost more power than what we had. Looking at your comparison of shamans and monks gives me a better idea of why I struggled so badly during dragonflight holy priest, base abilities do zero healing, we continue to struggle with Mana. We have no real defensive and any major throughput we have come from our set pieces. Additionally, I think that part of the problem is the concerns of players who run high in content vastly differ from those of us who do middle of the road or low in content, but it feels like the only concerns that reach the devs. Desk are those of high end players and the experiences of middle and low players are not represented as well.
I've been saying for a while that this whole gameplay based around constant active cooldowns is poor design. Offensive, defensive, all of it. They need to pull back a bit, reduce the number of and effectiveness of all cooldowns and increase passive mitigation and damage.
Yeah some classes are getting a bit ridiculous with defensives. On my mage I have Barrier, Mass Barrier, Ice Cold, Alter Time, Greater Invisibility and Mirror images as well as Hp pot and Healthstone. I have as much defensives as my blood dk.
Reduce healing output by 50% and increase healthpools by a 100%, make mana meaningful and then start designing encounters around rot and burst phases again, so you have to play efficient. The problem really isn’t the solution, it’s that you’d need someone “competent” in charge of both mechanics and class design who has the means to make final decisions. There’s several different people working against each other, not to mention the firing and toxic shit that goes on behind the scenes. It’s an internal politics and ethical blizzard problem, not a game design problem.
I spot someone who doesn't play Hunter but is-wiser-anyway. Four defensives? Are you out of your mind? Turtle is VERY long CD and means literally "you're out for the duration" - you have to completely stop playing (can't interrupt or do damage). Exhilaration is a fairly nice self heal, but again, on a comparatively long CD and not even close in power to say, Lay On Hands - and repeat, it's SELF heal only. The two remaining defensives of the four you mentioned, both require for me to eskew bloodlust in favor of a Tenacity pet, which would be fine, if bloodlust wasn't one of the few cornerstone reasons (other than "we're all melees") to even get a hunter in a group. Which most high end groups DO NOT. It so happens that to grab a BL pet, I have to sacrifice not only 2 extra cooldowns (an average self-heal with hot component, and a magic damage absorb) but also a chunk of baseline leech which is foundation to hunter damage intake and which is built into tenacity pet... meaning hunter with BL is baseline more squishy. If you compare to a palading, with crazy low damage intake, castable heal (albeit from low mana) and a no-cd selfheal which lets you just convert your power output to healing in place of damage while in combat, two shields and one immunity, neither of which stop you from fighting on, and one supermassive heal you can cast on anyone, that's just... unfair. Horrible, retarded design.
Awesome pics. Great size. Look thick. Solid. Tight. Keep us all posted on your continued progress with any new progress pics or vid clips. Show us what you got man. Wanna see how freakin' huge, solid, thick and tight you can get. Thanks for the motivation
My view and ive said this before. All dps should lose their defensives and healing abilities and healing should be all on the healers. For which im sure the dps will cry. Great video btw.Wish it went longer
My experiance of M+ atm is? If a healer can keep you over 70-80% throug a dungeon then he is a insanly good healer. Becaus 90-95% of al healers so far this seasons cant do That, im playing balance druid. So i have to have to back to back use al my defencives, i have to sit in bearform healing myself nonstop and i have to use healthpot/healthstone on constantly cooldown becaus its needed Always. Either i have had the worst 400+ healers in the world or healers are just bad in general becaus 99% of al keys die becaus the group literaly does not get healed, and this is 20+ keys not 30+ keys… either u get oneshotted or you dont get healed atm
I am an old hardcore healer(through Cata). Coming back and healing now feels far less fun and engaging. I’ve been trying dps and tank, but it feels so bad to heal. Encounters feel designed around addons, and then players. You get the walkthrough of a boss from day one without the experience. Now everything is so scripted.
I feel like they should have left the CLASS talents as they were (pick 1 of 3 options) rather than give everyone the option to have basically every ability all the time, and made the SPEC talents the way the currently are. They went ridiculously overboard with putting "proper" talents back into the game
I think removing cds can work and I know people won't like it, but if Blizz really states why and how it will effect things, it will go over way better than the we are buffing player health and damage by X%. I know Blizz can't admit they are wrong, but just saying we gave players too much and we have to fix it if you want healing ect to go back would be a great way to start and doing it right at the start of TWW would be really helpful.
Really enjoyed the video! I agree with defensives we have way too many across all classes and I think they need to remove some defensives in general. Also for some reason hunters just take more damage in general or at least it feels like it when I bring a hunter I’m constantly watching their health compared to other classes
I often take very little damage in raid and m+ (avoidable) as a hunter yet I die first because healers do not heal me this has happened the whole expansion.
Doesn't solve the underlying issue though that you shouldn't be doing high end keys with no healer. It would be fixed quick if they're was a no tank meta.
@Theparadoxd7 That is not an issue there is 1 to 2 groups who are even trying higher keys without a healer in the WORLD. And they are doing 26 when 31 is the highest keys. Those people brick a TON of keys to get that one good run. Those same people have done no healer keys for the last 3 expansions. It is a gimmick not something you would do for the Highest keys. Last season when Nerf and that group went with no healer they did 2 key levels HIGHER with a healer and even then that got off healing nerfed a lot. There was a TOTAL of 5 groups in the top 5000keys in the world last season FYI. So a total of 20people played without a healer in the top 5000runs and it got nerfed. For live keys it is a gimmick for the people who are the best of the best it is still not better then to go with a healer in all cases.
@@havtor007You're not listening. You shouldn't be able to do high keys without a healer. Period. The fact you can exposes the issue that there's not enough constant healing requirements. And when you get into the lower end groups they aren't blocking that avoidable damage and then getting hit by the spike of damage and dying. It doesn't matter how small a group is doing it, listen to Tettles and you WILL see more of it in the next MDI. Yes it probably won't be used for the highest keys, but that wasn't what we were talking about
@@Theparadoxd7 Explain WHAT is a High Key? The highest key done without a healer is 4key levels BELOW the highest keys being done. And it is done by a team that is specialized in playing without a healer having done so for 6 YEARS and EVEN THOSE guys do 3 key levels HIGHER with a healer then without one. Even the people who have been doing this for years still do WAY higher key levels with a healer. The fact of the matter is that it is a GIMMICK it is for FUN you might have heard about that word sometime it is not a thing you would be playing if you are trying to do high keys. in the MDI it is real simple just make a rule about it (it used to be a rule in the past)
Easy. You put all the cooldowns on one choice and make all of them selectable on that one button. These issues would easily be solved if damage from bosses were set to a % of your health or a specific number of damage; whichever is greater. This way, players could not cheat mechanics with lower item level gear. It also would force a healer presence. Not to mention the MDI needs more regulations and needs more brackets. A melee bracket, ranged bracket, meta bracket, forced classes brackets. Healing is supposed to be a challenge. Keys above 20 need better rewards. Mounts, pets, or even a token to upgrade gear; in this seasons example: 496 item level up to a certain number of items that match the rewards from mythic fyrakk. Removing mana from healers would also make things more interesting and fun.
The MDI key levels were 22's and 23's and the main reason no healer was needed is because stuff died so fast. No-healer runs were also only really viable on half the keys and even then, didn't perform that well because hybrids had to spend so many globals healing instead of doing damage. Using some 22/23 keys as proof that defensives are too strong or numerous is strange when 30's exist. The MDI also isn't representative of the game, it's pure speed running where DPS is all that matters. I don't really understand what your desired end goal is. At the moment you press a defensive when you get a mechanic and live but if you don't press one, you die. That's good? The alternative is that you get a mechanic and do nothing? For Mythic raid mechanics, straight forward completxity like that is favourable to the private WA complexity Blizzard has leaned into. The game would probably be in a better state if complexity in Mythic raids was more a matter of survival rather than positioning/pairing/dispels that require addons to automate. You want raiders to spend more time injured and want less healing CD's which only promotes "blanket" healing. You want mana to "matter" but in a world where there is always healthbars to heal and CD's are weak you will only end up spamming your most efficient heal ad nauseum and stacking another healer if your raids throughput isn't high enough. We've been down this road before. The strangest part about this crusade you're on is that you're petitioning to return to states of the game that we have already been in that all had significant problems. In expansions where whole raids were injured for longer periods of time Druids and Priests spammed Rejuv/Riptide non-stop and Hpals were brought specifically and solely for tank healing duty because their toolkit didn't provide blanket healing options. Later, when Hpals got EF they did nothing but mindlessly blanket entire raids with it. In expansions where healing CD's were much weaker than they are now every raid stacked DPS which brought defensive CD's for their raid. In expansions where healer mana "mattered" the most, healers mindlessly spammed their most efficient heals and never pressed AoE/burst healing buttons because they were too expensive and if raid throughput was too low they just brought an additional healer so 5 or 6 players could press Healing Wave or Healing Touch or Heal 200 times instead of 4 or 5 doing it. In expansions where individual defensive CD's were weak and few, raids stacked the ones with the best (Rogues for about a decade). Remember when all the melee DPS had weak/few defensive CD's in Legion and raids stacked 4+ Rogues? I remember you saying at some point that you started playing WoW back in SL or BFA or some relatively recent expansions and your takes on healing throughout DF remind me of that. This notion you have of healers having complete control over healthbars, of mana being a resource to meticulously manage and where players stay injured for long times as healers select the perfect spells to use to heal them up have all been realized to varying extents in previous expansions and Blizzard have never been able to balance them or implement them well. The monkey paw always curled and the grass was not greener then that it is now. Especially in Mythic raids.
If I'm understanding the argument correctly, Theun is saying the pendulum has swung too far in the bursty direction. It's either 100% or 0% and the healer is the fourth best option to mitigate incoming damage after defensive (some classes over 5 of them), health pot, health stone, and finally healer but only if the hybrid healing effect button isn't enough. Bursty AoE and CD strength is not just a problem for healers. It's rampant throughout the other two roles as well. Even if you're saying this is better than the old ways you don't like, that doesn't mean it's the best it can be. I for one would appreciate some effort to bring it back towards a environment where healer skill expression was a thing and not just mashing big AoE heals and overhealing by 45-70% on every healing spell and then that's not even enough if the group doesn't use defensives.
I honestly think Theun is right here the pendulum has swung too much into personal defensive and dps self sufficiency. For me, healing was at its best during legion, at least from a raid healing perspective. During that time there was far less personal defensives, and in raid it took more than one heal to get people topped. BFA was slightly similar but toward the end of the expansion with corruptions healer power started peaking (especially holy pally with un-nerfed glimmer). Heading into shadowlands with stats being reset, Castle Nathria felt amazing to heal (outside of warriors and dks having the strongest raid cds). Once gear started to hit and it felt worse and worse to raid heal. With dragonflight scaling those even higher with more and more personal AND healer power creep. On the other hand, in dungeons I think the opposite was true for healing in dungeons during these times. Maining resto shaman through legion it felt like I could never top anyone in a key and struggled. Right now fells the best it has in a while. So personally, I think we need a healer scaling buff for effectiveness in dungeon content for primarily our single target abilities.
Theun's desired end goal is stated fairly obvious in this and in other videos. The goal is to make healer slower and less dependent on cds. It is not interesting, fun, or even skillful to have raid damage be decided by rotating through raid cds/healer burst combos until you win. In slower expansions like Cata, WOD or even TBC, you simply healed through the damage with your own ability. Even with faults, this is a fair better gameplay dynamic.
@@MrSups1 Isn't it equally uninteresting, unfun and unskillful to have weak CD's and weaker/fewer personal CD's because then the healing meta revolves about stacking efficient "blanket" healers and mindlessly spamming the same buttons over and over because there is always someone to heal and only 1 or 2 buttons to do it effectively? In Cata we had Hpals blanketing groups with EF. In TBC it was Rdruids blanketing with Rejuv and Priests with Renew, and in WoD we had Discs doing the same thing with old PW:S and Divine Aegis. In WoD I remember healing feeling like a set rotation. Discs spammed Smite, Penance and PW:S mindlessly. Mistweavers kept RJW up and played their Chi rotation to press Uplift whenever raid damage went out while keeping ReM on CD. CD's were much weaker in WoD but rotational throughput was so strong that as raids geared up and kill times dropped, we had healers solo-healing raids, even back in Highmaul and BRF, and especially in HFC. It was common practice for raids for progress with 4 or 5 healers and then drop down to 2 or 3 for farm and eventually 1. I think healing could be better in DF and somewhat agree with what you and Theun have been saying regarding power creep and damage patterns but the push towards older Cata/WoD or even SL healing metas being the answer to that problem is where you lose me.
"Raid healing is probably the worst that's ever been"... Did you even play Pandaria??? Healing in Pandaria was the pure definition of powerful as heck. I don't recall people complaining about that back in Pandaria. Healing in general has been changing in every single expansion, for example, healing in Wotlk is the easiest in WoW's history as the healers are ridicuously powerful, and I don't recall people complaining about that back in the day or even nowadays in Wotlk Classic. I am seriously questioning if these people actually played expansions like Wotlk or Pandaria where healing was powerful for real. Dragonflight's healing is nothing compared to those 2 expansions, oh and I just remembered about Legion's healing lol... Holy Paladins being able to top an entire 20 man raid from 1% to 100% with a single CD (Aura Mastery for the Aura of Sacrifice) or Disc Priest being able to do the exact same thing by timing their Artifact weapon's ability and so on... I am getting sick of these complains as they make absolutely no sense, but you know what? Let's have Blizzard change healing to what it was in early Cataclysm and then start complaining about not being able to move a player's HP bar with your most powerful spells.
Oh wow Aliena dang it has been a long time i heard that voice. Tankspot was great. Hunter at ilvl 487 with a stamina pet has 997 000hp with fortitude 1 050 000 000hp So where you get that 1.2million i do not understand. under the effect of Fortitude of the Bear it is 1.2million but that is under one of the cooldowns and a 20% increase in hp for 10seconds. lets look at a Mage to compare that to at 488ilvl (so yes 1 item level higher) you got 898 000hp, With Fortitude the mage has 943 000hp. Hunter has around 70k more then a mage that is true However mage has a LOT more buttons and shorter cooldown For mage you also have barrier a 22%+ vers shield on you with a 25second cooldown, (at the log i am looking at that is a 227 000 shield) So the Effective health of a mage just using barrier is 1.1Million HP with Fortitude it is 1 180 000hp or close to 1.2million hp. So just looking at Hunter and Mage as examples you say hunter has a lot of HP the reality is that Mage has a higher HP pool as long as they re apply shield when they can then Hunter has with a pet that makes hunters have less group utility. And as someone who has played a healer you know how strong Abosrbs are compared to just having more HP or healing the damage back up. But i do wonder how you get that hunters have 1.2million hp, when the reality is that with barrier up (should be up for a lot if not all of the damage intakes) Mage has more effective Hp then hunter. I even looked at Azortharian and it is still not the case there.
I've been playing resto druid since 2005. I also have tank and played hardcore on several expansions. Only in this expansion, I stopped playing healer or tank. Because, the game and community is too punishing and the rewards do not worth it. Also i do not agree with def cooldowns. Now I play hunter and struggle in 26+ keys. Its just not fun anymore. Too many buttons to press, too many things to think, etc.. its just stresfull.
I guess constant RoT damage with burst of damage to bait out the defensives. Also playing dps shamans, you can really feel the difference of you and every other class in the game with defensives. It feels like stuff is designed around you getting externals from paladins and such. And thats not even in m+ only. In raid we cannot be seed carriers because we just die to the ramping DoT damage. Power creep feels especially bad in Dragonflight, when every rework they have done has put more defensives into already very defensive classes. Mage. Rogue and paladin to name a few. But of course, also mistweaver gained a disgusting amount of defensives this patch. Anyway, rework shaman defensivs thx
To be fair the paladin rework with adding defensives was a must even blizzard had statistics on it being one of the least able to survive things in the game.
Yeah. Vers is such a weird stat. But even then, there is a genuine large gap between shamans and litterally every other class in the game. Spirit wolf. Its bear form with a 4 second delay. Astral shift: very mid defensive. its decent, but as its major defensive it doesnt really do much. Earth elemental: Scuffed desperate prayer with a force of nature tied to it. Has a 5 minute cd. Baseline 8% max health buff and 2-3/4-6% magic damage DR Have to give up major damage abilties to heal Compare it to stuff like arms warrior Spell reflect (25 sec cd) 20% magic DR. 90% (made up number) of damage in this tier is magic. Ignore pain which doesnt really have a cooldown Rally Die by the sword which is pretty much astral shift with Evasion tied to it. 20% additional armor passively Impending victory which barely even costs resource. And this is not even the largest offender. Classes like Mage or Warlock or rogue exists. Vers only larges the gap even more, because it increases both damage, healing, and defensiveness. So when specs dont have great other stats, they just stack vers and become unkillable. I think they should help shaman and maybe remove the defensiveness part of vers @@madtrade
bro why do you go from saying "Fyrakk" and talking about one-shots, and then immediately the MDI discussing lvl ~25 keys. From the context, it implies you actually are discussing Mythic Fyrakk, not just any old Fyrakk. Cause i've done Heroic, and 1-shots are not that common. THEN directly after that, you roll right into a reference to the transition from Wrath to Cataclysm expansion, way before M+ dungeons existed or raiding had become so serious. How do you not see, its YOUR perspective which has changed due to the evolution of your play capabilities. Your solutions would only work for a handful of people, maybe a few thousand at best, that small crowd of people who do M+ way past any possible relevancy it has for anyone in the game, due to their own boredom and addiction, combined with the luxury circumstances of having plenty of surplus time and nice computers and internet connection, which believe me, most people don't have. I can agree that damage needs to slow down, be less binary, in order to give healers more time to heal. and also maybe dps need perhaps not their defensive tools removed, but nerfed a bit, maybe 30% across the board. but like, the way you are coming at this topic I feel it has at best a random chance of creating an appropriate solution that would appeal to the majority of players.
Healing is dying and that is only happening because it makes little sense in a "only damage output matters" culture. If you don't do damage you are irrelevant, wanna see healers thrive? Take away all (or most) personals, Self healing hibrid classes keep their healing buttons (shamans/paladins/druids) albeit enough to heal like half their lives with all their mana spent there, but others such as warriors/rogues/mages, lose any self healing. Give them *some* mitigation(like 1 or 2 2min cds), but definetly not enough to keep them alive for 20-30 seconds, they are not healers they shouldnt heal, they are not tanks they shouldnt mitigate damage. Take away raid cooldowns from DKs, DHs, Warriors and whoever else has them, place them on a healer or a support spec. Make healers HEAL and not have to worry about their damage or other people's cds. SLOW THE GAME DOWN, make us think strategically rather than having to have everything micro planned for every second of every fight. Resource management used to be what really diferentiated good from great. Also, Rushing through everything and seeing how much of the game can be either boiled down to AOEing it down, or how to entirely skip it, isnt skill. Going fast is not the same as being good. This generates healing as a cicle of endless spamming things not really caring who or what you are healing, surely there are "some" mechanics you need to target heal, but mostly you are just keeping your riptide/glimmer/mending or whatever up and healing regardless of need. I don't need to feel like I have to juggle 2-3 class specific tools, plus 3-4 procs and when to use a trinket to feel good healing people. But honestly the problem lies not in the "healing sphere" it lies in the WHOLE ENTIRE SYSTEM of what WoW has become.
Its actually pretty simple. You don't have to touch defensives. Dramatically lower incoming damage, and increase outgoing DPS requirements. Healing was fine in shadowlands. We don't need the healer role to be this rip fest it is now. People complained about healers having to dps then, and they still complain about it now. Let them complain. Go back to shadowlands healing.
'healers feel to powerful' - besides you . i dont hear anyone else saying that - it seems like you want a game where gamers have to playing near perfect in order just to survive .. and you quote 'growl' - he is one of the best playing with the best - he is not a sample size to take any sort of meaningful data points from .. c'mon @6:26 'We gained more CD's and power compared to Shadowlands - and thats a problem' - huh ?? more cool shit to top off and heal your dumb-ass party cuz pug'ers mostly suck - hrmm @7:29 - again you mention growl - in that he is (obviously) the median in which - if he (or you) isn't challenged as a healer - then the game is wrong - healers are broken - nerf them into the ground and then you go on repeating that this is the problem - obviously healers are too good - too many good abilities to press- @8:29 - but then you go on to say that ' thats why people are struggling too much - healing feels so stressful - you are relying on others to press defensives so they wont die'' im so confused - gimme the TLDR of this
tldr is if healers are to strong the only way blizz can kill u is from smacking u for over ur full hp in a very small window forcing it to become a defensive or die meta, if they nerf healing and defensive creep the game doesnt have to "1 shot" u to kill u making healing feel less stressful as everyone doesnt have to be topped between every dmg event. it might seem counterproductive at first but it really is a positive for the game to nerf healers/defensives
What fuckin rock have you been living under? Everyone has been saying what Theun has been saying on the healing discords. Nobody likes this burst healing meta, not the healers, not the dps and the tanks are self reliant so unless they spec dps or healer their reaction has been "Huuuh?". "it seems like you want a game where gamers have to playing near perfect in order just to survive" My guy this is the world you're living in right now. He's arguing to go back to when healers could heal through the damage and not require the dps to defensive or die. Accidentally using a def too early or overlapping and gg you're dead in the next spike. Exactly what acrn9293 said. "'growl' - he is one of the best playing with the best - he is not a sample size to take any sort of meaningful data points from" Good thing he's not basing everything off just what Growl said, more Growl is mirroring what Theun has been saying from the start of the expac and released multiple videos on it after talking to the other guide writers. "@6:26 'We gained more CD's and power compared to Shadowlands - and thats a problem' - huh ?? more cool shit to top off and heal your dumb-ass party cuz pug'ers mostly suck - hrmm" Go watch his other videos on healing issues for this expac, especially the parts where he's talking about the damage profile on sludgefist. But what acrn9293 said, this defensive or die meta is bullshit and I am on break until WW, if that doesn't look good I'll skip it I guess. The lack of tuning to Resto Shaman's talent tree was a final straw.
Two things can be true at once. The spec is fun, and the spec also has access to far too much. Is requiring an external storage solution for all of your CDs and defensives part of the fun of the spec for you?
Do you think WoW devs care about this? They only care about having gender confused dragons in game. Thats their priority. Just imagine arena games with all these.
I've hated this since SL release, they realised during BFA there wasn't a significant need for personals and people genuinely didn't push them even though they had designed them into toolkits. So as you mentioned they forced raiding/M+ into a state where they expected people to start pressing them. The problem is though in the sense of not being able to just heal this damage yes we lost agency but we gained agency of having to play other peoples classes for them, in having to tell them when to press their defensives. Which I hate with a passion, I want to focus on my toolkit and my abilities I don't want to micromanage other peoples buttons too.
spot on, i really hate having to remind a dps to use a defensive, like ur just rotating ur dps spells why tf is the healer having to use brainpower to remind u
I know you mentioned not wanting to go on too long about this, but I think this is an important topic and deserves the attention the other big healing deep dive got. Thanks for posting this, and I hope they make things less swingy in TWW.
Keep at it!!!
No healer keys are such an insult to everyone who has invested time into being a good healer. If it's not a gruelling exhausting experience of perfect gameplay, on high alert for other peoples mistakes to fix, now you're a literal burden to the group to be discarded and replaced with another dps.
The MDI is irrelevant to everyday players though.
And it is on key levels that is low compared to having Max ilvl gear
nobody on live will pug without healer a 24 EB tyra or a throne or one phase fall
yeah the most skilled m+ player in the worlds with tank trinket and a shit tons of off heal can do it and barely make it better than a classic comp
wow great video theun!
someone should pay your editor more..
Rot damage is so much more fun to heal imo. It’s the only time you get to really push your hps.
I think the solution here is to remove damage reduction/shield externals/cooldowns (like Life Cocoon, Barrier, etc.) or significantly reduce them. This will allow blizzard to make mechanics you can survive without damage reductions and keep these cds relegated to emergency uses, rather than requirements to survive mechanics.
Increase the cooldowns of defensives across the board but keep their power. Again, this allows them to be good emergency buttons but you won’t have them up for every mechanic, allowing blizzard to make mechanics that don’t kill you without a defensive.
Increase the strength of throughput healing cooldowns like ascendancy or tranq, while reducing the strength of non cooldown heals. This would allow blizz to design mechanics that don’t one shot you but still puts pressure on healers to keep people alive. Increasing the healing of throughput cds tight mechanic timings that *do* require you to top people up fast but they won’t have to make *every* mechanic require it. This would also make throughput healers like druids, shamans, and mistweavers more valuable, as at least in raid, raid-wide damage reduction cooldowns are in high demand, which those classes don’t have.
Rot auras work best for raid because it's easier to balance the healers around it. With M+, especially in S2, it just felt oppressive basically needing to sit there for 3-5 minutes straight needing to mash healing cds on cooldown. You often get little time to dps and some healers have a much easier time in M+ with countering rot auras.
I'll take Holy Priest and Disc Priest. Disc Priest casts Power Word Radiance and just mashes dps buttons to heal through rot auras. But on a Holy Priest you need to manually flash heal/holy word serenity people one at a time. You have some AOE heals, but they're on 10-12s cds, and you only have so many Holy Word Sanctifys. To heal the same fight a Holy Priest needs to cast way more healing spells than a Disc Priest.
We chose to be healers because it requiered more responsibilities BUT they were mor rewarding because of the control we had on our groups, now it feels like no longer we have that control but rather extra duties and sweat for having less agency... it feels really awful.
Idk how y'all feel but for the first time ever I really got bored of healing and am not looking forward to do it all over again in S4, idk I cba anymore it's too much atm.
M+ MW main: I have a group-wide 5-man Lay On Hands every 40 seconds, and I have my Celestial every minute. I also have a kick on a 15s cooldown, an AOE stun, Ring of Peace for Control. And I have 3-4 active defensive buttons as well as 3-5 passive defensives in the trees. The group often has a VDH with illuminated sigils, a Fire Mage which cannot die due to their defensive toolkit and has a mass barrier. Add Aug, and I do more healing. You could effectively swap my kit for any of the other healers and the answer would be the same: tons of very strong cooldowns on top of very defensive toolkits with a group that is stacked with control and defensives as well as leech and some off-healing. This is nuts.
When I clicked this video my first thought was "When was the last time I thought healing was peak enjoyment" and I thought of Castle Nathria and i'm so happy you mentioned that. Also while I know there's so many that bash cataclysm for all it's flaws. As a heal main it was fun, especially the first tier and it was a surprise that was mentioned too. Dragonflight healing has being fun but it's not the best and I haven't being the biggest fan of wotlk healing. I just dislike wack-a-mole healing 0 to 100 really fast spamming your most powerful spells every gcd topping everyone to full. Healing is best for me when there's a flow of low/mid/high power spells used in combo to slowly fill players health up. Using the stronger spells for emergencies/dangerous times at the cost of mana. And you hit the nail on the head of why lower tier difficulties are struggling with healing and the higher tiers not so much. There's way to many defensives. It's probably a hot take, but I really enjoy healing the trio boss in Everbloom simply because the damage players receive isn't burst but also the damage is significant I can really push my healing and how my spec is supposed to function.
They messed up the Stamina vs power scaling. Power always outscales the stamina gain ilvl/ilvl, but now ever more due to the improved talent tree.
Possible solutions could include (numbers are examples):
- Healing/absorb power reduced by 50%
- Reducing burst damage by 55%. (get away from oneshot meta)
- Reducing all other damage by 45%. (proportionally more rot damage to get away from defensive meta)
Overall more HP compared to damage intake, to reduce healer stress.
Sadly this change is probably more complex as it affects all different kind of talents and class abilities, and we can't expect them to do this for S4.
And as a Holy Priest, I’m not thrilled they greatly increased the cooldown of Mass Dispell. It’s hell enough already when most groups don’t think to use their defensives or much less any cleanse/decurse to give me a break. (Don’t get me started on interrupts, if they’re not tanking they won’t stop tunnel rotation to help out the tank). The dev’s need to review this video. Thanks for posting ❤
Thank you for not stopping to talk about this topic. Healing feels horrible right now and everyone should be more vocal about it.
Mages have 9(frost 10) buttons just for defensive stuff when including the alter time cancel macro and healthstones+hp pots.
Button bloat goes brrr
they gotta cut a lot of spells from what some classes currently have rn, its really not new/returning player friendly and sure, us who play the game a lot might not care and just adapt but, is there really a need for this? think legion class design having 8000 passives and 3 spells was fine
The real problem frost has is no build diversity, pugging with comet storm talented just feels awful
@riptorrz as a recently returning player after ~1 year break. There's too many buttons. I've got 32 combinations bound and that's not enough for certain specs yet alone pvp. Tbh. I cba and play a warrior atm
As a 3.5k RShaman that primarily does M+ this is my take on your assessment:
(A) Blizz is continuously making the mistake of balancing for Raid content. And then when it has unintended consequences to the other aspects of the game (M+ and PvP) they compensate. Which in turn messes up Raid balance. Its a catch 22 situation that can ONLY be stopped if they separate M+ and Raid properly. From the start of the expansion. Things like "XXX does YYY when not in raid content". It should be baseline for all abilities.
(B) Raids: You might argue that damage is very spiky. But as you already showed in your video there was a change from "rot damage" to "spiky damage". I dont see ANY problem with healer power if you simply backtrack to rot damage once again.
In Raid content, healers and DDs might have powerful CDs, but they cant use them continuously over a 7 minute fight. So if you have rot damage AND spiky damage. You tune down the spiky damage such that it does say... 50% of a persons HP. And the challenge would be to have everyone at 70% or more during heavy rot in preparation for the "bang". Do that every 30s and you got yourself a heavy HPS requirement with less 1-shots.
(C) M+ : The current problem with M+ are the 1-shots. You practically dont need a healer if deff CDs are managed properly and you survive the 1-shots.
I propose the following: In addition to adding more rot damage and less spiky ST heavy damage, simply CAP the damage after a certain key level. Say... a +27 in S3 DF. After that, damage scales no longer. Instead, you double the scaling factor for HP. Such that the limiting factor for key scaling is not damage taken, but DPS. All while keeping healers busy "healing". No need to nerf the damage at all.
That way, if a DD knows for certain that he will live the 1-shot with out deff CDs... then the importance of those CDs is less. However, because HP of mobs would scale faster and faster with key level, the importance of offensive CDs would be much more important.
Especially because while the healer could theoretically heal the whole party back in 0.2s with CDs or spam heals... the longer the fight drags on... the faster he will run out of mana. So the skill would be efficient healing and perfect CD management.
But in the end, its Blizzard choice to design dungeons as they are. With things like: Yazma Soulrend. WM tree boss, EB mage boss... EB "spinny boyz"... They could have designed that damage differently. Like the 2nd boss of EB (in contrast to the 3rd mage and last 4rth boss). Where you have continuous rot damage together with ST damage in the form of spells. That is a challenge for ANY healer. And there are no 1-shots there, unless you are targeted by 2 spells at once (which you can interrupt).
This is the first response with a solution that makes absolutely sense. Greetings from another 3.5k Rsham ❤
No absolutely not you don't need to separate raid from m+ and they will never do that because it's a bigger mess to balance and newcomers have a mess to learn.
This whole post is bad in so, so many ways.
@@Theparadoxd7Explain to me how that would increase the "mess" of balancing?
Like: Rets and Mages were recently buffed to improve their performance in Raid content and all of a sudden they bust the M+ meta balancing? Or how RShaman tier set sucks so much for M+ because should they buff it by a fraction of a percent we would be so OP in raid it would not even be funny... I can give you so many examples here... And the solution: For example say that the RShaman 4p tier set has 20% of spreading riptide on M+ but 6% on Raid. EZ. Instead Blizz left RShamans in the gutter in M+.
OR... maybe... what happened in S2: you play SP/Mage and are doing just fine in Raid. But you are getting nerfed every week because in M+ we have Exodia. Until you do so little damage you are literally benched in Raid. How is that fair in any way to Raiders?
Look, it worked just fine with PvP. When some classes overperform/underperform in PvP blizz does its balance tuning accordingly and it does not affect the Raid. Everyone is happy. And any problems PvP might have are other things (lack of tuning cadence, lack of new content, MMR system... ) but definitely not PvE balance tuning.
Just imagine for a second that your specific class was nerfed because somehow it can one-shot people in Arenas, and now you under-perform in Raid and your raid leader decides to bench you for another class. Wouldn't that be unfair somehow?
Because that was the PvE vs. PvP situation for years... and it was really annoying. For both parties (PvErs and PvPers). And now, everyone is happy. The results speak for themselves.
Also... common... newcomers? The "new player experience" of WoW is atrocious. And End Game is the least of the problems there.
Right now, EVERYONE simply goes to WoWHead and copies "M+ talents" or "Raid talents". And maybe, some people tweek the talents by 1 or 2 points at best. All Blizz has to do is balance each ability such that it does its intended damage for the content its in. Like PvP. There are "PvP" talents people copy-paste from WoWHead and learn from PvP streamers, ect... With out affecting PvE in any way.
And people that do M+ also do the same right now. They get their M+ talents from WoWHead, they bind buttons you would otherwise not bind in Raid (interrupts and CC anyone?) and watch their favorite streamers do 30+. And they would keep doing the same they do now if you tune M+ player power separate from Raid player power.
Simple.
@@fs569 "Rets and Mages ... M+ meta balancing?"
"I can give you so many examples here..."
"Or how RShaman tier set sucks ...would be so OP in raid it would not even be funny..."
For a start Rshaman has never been OP in raid and never will be, they physically can't allow us on equal terms with good healers for more than 2 weeks it seems. And as for tier set it has nothing to do with pve m+/raid divide. They should have listened to the feedback from the very start and changed it to something else hell I've forgotten but Theun and some of the top m+'ers had some great ideas for how to at least make it not suck.
As for balancing it really doesn't matter how many "examples you can provide" because it always boils down to "they can fix this by adjusting the talents normally".
You don't need to adjust M+ and Raiding seperately as they are BOTH PVE. And doing tuning that way will make something absolutely busted for aoe in M+ but not raids or vice versa because they are bad enough at balancing as is. Absolutely no, this does not end in the sunshine and dreams you think it does. And as I said it makes it even more of a mess for newcomers and yes it's a mmo, steep learning curve deal with it yadayada this is the one area you shouldn't seperate because you can already do this by just balancing single target and aoe talents differently.
"benched in Raid. How is that fair in any way to Raiders? "
The problem still lies in the tree's design and how they need to make the raid and m+ builds different, then tune the outliers in the build. This is where they fucked up with aura buffing over and over when half the problem was synergy and augs.
"Look, it worked just fine with PvP."
No shit, because it always made sense for pvp because they wouldn't do the tuning required to 3 way balance single target and aoe.
Pve and PVP being differen't always made sense because A) They attract different people B) They function completely differently. Smashing a raid boss and a dungeon boss is the same, smashing trash is the same. Smashing the other teams healer while throwing cc's out, completely different game.
"There are "PvP" talents people copy-paste from WoWHead and learn from PvP streamers,"
They talked about things like this on poddy C or on Max's stream. Basically thats like less than 1% of the playerbase that does that. As crazy as it sounds, like 1% or less changes talents for dungeons or on different bosses on raids, the rest just single build and go. The lfr/normal/heroic and *shudders * some mythic players just wing their builds and when they surveyed or something like that it was only the "hardcore" players who looked up streamers or builds. We think of it as normal but my god apparently it's not and they have to think of these players too.
"And they would keep doing the same they do now if you tune M+ player power separate from Raid player power."
And they would do that too if they just balanced the aoe and single target talents better and then you don't have to remember "is it in raids or pvp it does x y or z?".
@@Theparadoxd7And that is where you are wrong. Raid and M+ are not the same.
That is why Healing Tide Totem heals 100% more when not in a raid group. That is why "close as clutch mates" exists for Aug.
That is why the value of PI is not so big in Raids vs. M+. That is why DD defensives used in M+, and designed for M+ bust the Raid.
Like the stupid +40% damage & 40% HP. Idea done purely for raids. It completely messed up M+ scene. So in S2 instead of doing it again, they cut it in half, and in S3 they did not even try.
Or like every single time they reworked a class in DF. Rets wrecking PvP during S1... Exodia in S2... DH in S3...
You are delusional to think that spells, especially healer spells, have the same impact in a 20 man group with more than 1 healer than in a 5 man group where you are the only healer. Just because its called the same, does not make it the same. Its the equivalent to saying that BGs and Arenas are the same because they are both PvP. Delusional.
And that is why Blizz does not have the courage to touch things too much. And when they do, its a tiny 5%. Because the unintended consequences can be massive.
And sure. They might suck at balancing thats for sure. But every single time Blizzard actually does a good job in balancing classes for Raids... turns out they need to undo their good work because of the trickle down effects it has on other aspects of the game. So we need to stop that.
Long story short: If we want change, we need to enable change. If we keep being stubborn about it, we will never exit this cycle and we will for ever have videos like this one complaining about healing being too OP or being too nerfed out. Dont forget, Theun here mentions Slugefist in SL... well.,. in SL M+ was healer AFK expansion. So they buffed healers for the M+ crowd, but then we had this consequence in Raid, so they buffed damage in Raid by 40%, but HP of players by 40%, and then they busted M+ doing so, so they buffed classes once again, which busted Raid again.... and here we are... How do you propose to exit the cycle? Its obvious to me what Blizzards problem is...
And as for new comers, stop being delusional. Im not talking about having different trees and skills. Like Healing Tide Totem, you have it both in Raid and in M+ and use it for the same situations. It just heals less in a Raid. Thats all. So expand that concept to more abilities. So if newcomers can adapt to what we have now, they most certainly will if you split M+ and Raid balance tuning.
omg its been so long since i heard the name aliena
A good idea would be to put all of them on choice nodes, diffuse magic/dampen, ascendance/AG, etc.. right?
so you said mdi is currently running without healers, and suggest to nerv healers even further to make them even less viable?
“You don’t have agency yourself.” That right there to me is the main issue as a healer right now.
MW needed a shit ton of defensive because it's the only true melee healer AND this is one of the only reason the class is enjoyable now frankly. now we can heal without fearing for our life the moment we have to stop melee and cast something from the middle of a big pack.
Cool vid, quite the general take from community some specs have it all when it comes to utilities some have none or close to none.
I am curious what 4 CDs you are talking about for hunters? I see Survival of the Fittest (2.4 min), Aspect of the turtle (Deflect immune, not a purge of existing dmg, 2.4 min). Then you could consider Exhilaration but this is a heal not eligible for one shot mechanics. Fortitude of the Bear forces you to switch pet for specific OS abilities because you either need lust from Ferocity pet or Leech for better HP sustain.
When you compares MW, Rdrood, Mages, Warlocks, DH, there is a reason why they are so meta. It's not so much about the damage, eventhough they have the damage profile that suit the content, it's also how useful they are. Especially true in 5-man content.
They did 22 23 24 in mdi
Heres what Theun didnt mention about shaman - Healing tide totem is almost useless now because it barely heals anything (in M+). Ancestral Guidance also got nerfed. Shaman has lost its power and why didnt you mention Vesper totem that was bread and butter for shamans in SL?
Its not about healing cds being strong, its a terrible, terrible take. Its about game having too many ping-pong mechanics or mechanics that will kill you in few seconds.
Also, ret can do 600k wog crits on dps players. With that and great team play you can do w/o a healer to a certain level. This game isnt focused on the elite players who have premades. Majority of players are solo.
Defensive or not, 28WCM a witch on forti can chop you down in few seconds. All you can do is send a your healing cds and pray. Or maggot spits. 3 on you - dead. "oh, JuSt Cc ThEm" Wow, didnt think of that, anyway.
Nobody can heal you from 10%-100% in half a second. Unless you pre-cast everything since you have God given powers to see the future or its raid specific take(?).
And what hunter has 1.2mil hp? In raid maybe, not in M+ where most play Fyrakk tank trinket to not die. I know many hunters who dont play above +25 because they are getting one shot too often.
These takes are aimed for premade groups. Try pug healing a +27s and up and watch how weak you feel. Oh, double interrupts and two people got a debuff nobody can dispell? Have fun with that. But of course, you can blame others here. Not the right setup for dungeon, missed interrupt etc. Be realistic, things like these happen and will always be there.
Be realistic about these takes not elitist.
The only problem i see, mostly, is the players themselves, you get all the tools that you need to complete the challenges presented and if you don't use them how do you expect do so?
It's like going to war without a gun and expect to have better chances at defending yourself compared to the people who do, truth is harsh like it or not, i've learned that in the hardest of ways.
Now, that is not to say that the game is perfectly designed and/or balanced and everything from the theory level translates perfectly in game, of course it doesn't and i am also the type of player who may find flaws in designs but i also recognize that most of the times, i noticed that when i had thought something was a design flaw, it was just my misunderstanding of the design, regardless if i liked the design from that stand point it or not.
Does this also mean that kits are good enough to represent the fantasy conceptually excluding their in-game balance?
Most are but they can be so much more.
dps players are braindead 99% of the time
As a mage main, I can say that I hate having to press all of these defensives if I don't want to die.
Great video! I wish you could get the encounter design dev in to actually talk about this with them!
hunter has 200k less hp than you say, and only as BM or Surv, BM doesn't even have that HP on Tindral because we have to play freedom pet, and MM is permanently at lower health due to lone wolf, and nobody plays Surv. Hunter also feels remarkably worse because people dont want to press turtle due to losing DPS (or being assigned to turtle at specific times like Tindral beams or Fyrakk Intermission), Exhil is on GCD and only helps recover or heal absorbs not getting 1 shot globalled, and symbol of hope gives exhil cd not survival of the fittest. SotF is on a long 2.4min CD. Thats all we have.
SotF last only 6seconds (same lenght as breath on volocross as an example) it is without talents only 20% damage reduction, on a 3min cooldown.
It takes many talent points to get it to 2.4min and 40% damage reduction it still lasts only 6seconds.
Turtle is a weak immunity having lots of things just ignore it.
Yes we can move in it but we can also be hit by mechanics in it that say iceblock would fully immune.
If one where to review healing and damage mitigation logs for hunters they would realize hunters have the worste healing and dmg mitigation of any spec in the game.
Hi, Theun, interesting points, but I think in comparing holy priest, Shadowlands to dragonflight we have lost more power than what we had. Looking at your comparison of shamans and monks gives me a better idea of why I struggled so badly during dragonflight holy priest, base abilities do zero healing, we continue to struggle with Mana. We have no real defensive and any major throughput we have come from our set pieces. Additionally, I think that part of the problem is the concerns of players who run high in content vastly differ from those of us who do middle of the road or low in content, but it feels like the only concerns that reach the devs. Desk are those of high end players and the experiences of middle and low players are not represented as well.
I've been saying for a while that this whole gameplay based around constant active cooldowns is poor design. Offensive, defensive, all of it. They need to pull back a bit, reduce the number of and effectiveness of all cooldowns and increase passive mitigation and damage.
Yeah some classes are getting a bit ridiculous with defensives. On my mage I have Barrier, Mass Barrier, Ice Cold, Alter Time, Greater Invisibility and Mirror images as well as Hp pot and Healthstone. I have as much defensives as my blood dk.
This is quality WoW content -- and as a predominantly DPS Main you hit the issues spot on
Reduce healing output by 50% and increase healthpools by a 100%, make mana meaningful and then start designing encounters around rot and burst phases again, so you have to play efficient. The problem really isn’t the solution, it’s that you’d need someone “competent” in charge of both mechanics and class design who has the means to make final decisions. There’s several different people working against each other, not to mention the firing and toxic shit that goes on behind the scenes. It’s an internal politics and ethical blizzard problem, not a game design problem.
I spot someone who doesn't play Hunter but is-wiser-anyway. Four defensives? Are you out of your mind? Turtle is VERY long CD and means literally "you're out for the duration" - you have to completely stop playing (can't interrupt or do damage). Exhilaration is a fairly nice self heal, but again, on a comparatively long CD and not even close in power to say, Lay On Hands - and repeat, it's SELF heal only. The two remaining defensives of the four you mentioned, both require for me to eskew bloodlust in favor of a Tenacity pet, which would be fine, if bloodlust wasn't one of the few cornerstone reasons (other than "we're all melees") to even get a hunter in a group. Which most high end groups DO NOT. It so happens that to grab a BL pet, I have to sacrifice not only 2 extra cooldowns (an average self-heal with hot component, and a magic damage absorb) but also a chunk of baseline leech which is foundation to hunter damage intake and which is built into tenacity pet... meaning hunter with BL is baseline more squishy. If you compare to a palading, with crazy low damage intake, castable heal (albeit from low mana) and a no-cd selfheal which lets you just convert your power output to healing in place of damage while in combat, two shields and one immunity, neither of which stop you from fighting on, and one supermassive heal you can cast on anyone, that's just... unfair. Horrible, retarded design.
Awesome pics. Great size. Look thick. Solid. Tight. Keep us all posted on your continued progress with any new progress pics or vid clips. Show us what you got man. Wanna see how freakin' huge, solid, thick and tight you can get. Thanks for the motivation
This isn't the disc priest discord. Nobody finds it funny.
My view and ive said this before. All dps should lose their defensives and healing abilities and healing should be all on the healers. For which im sure the dps will cry. Great video btw.Wish it went longer
My experiance of M+ atm is? If a healer can keep you over 70-80% throug a dungeon then he is a insanly good healer. Becaus 90-95% of al healers so far this seasons cant do That, im playing balance druid. So i have to have to back to back use al my defencives, i have to sit in bearform healing myself nonstop and i have to use healthpot/healthstone on constantly cooldown becaus its needed Always. Either i have had the worst 400+ healers in the world or healers are just bad in general becaus 99% of al keys die becaus the group literaly does not get healed, and this is 20+ keys not 30+ keys… either u get oneshotted or you dont get healed atm
I am an old hardcore healer(through Cata). Coming back and healing now feels far less fun and engaging. I’ve been trying dps and tank, but it feels so bad to heal. Encounters feel designed around addons, and then players. You get the walkthrough of a boss from day one without the experience. Now everything is so scripted.
I feel like they should have left the CLASS talents as they were (pick 1 of 3 options) rather than give everyone the option to have basically every ability all the time, and made the SPEC talents the way the currently are. They went ridiculously overboard with putting "proper" talents back into the game
I think removing cds can work and I know people won't like it, but if Blizz really states why and how it will effect things, it will go over way better than the we are buffing player health and damage by X%. I know Blizz can't admit they are wrong, but just saying we gave players too much and we have to fix it if you want healing ect to go back would be a great way to start and doing it right at the start of TWW would be really helpful.
Really enjoyed the video!
I agree with defensives we have way too many across all classes and I think they need to remove some defensives in general.
Also for some reason hunters just take more damage in general or at least it feels like it when I bring a hunter I’m constantly watching their health compared to other classes
Yeah because hunters have the confidence to write „5% versa“ in the lfg
I often take very little damage in raid and m+ (avoidable) as a hunter yet I die first because healers do not heal me this has happened the whole expansion.
The MDI is easy just makes the rules have a healer in the group.
Just like there are rules about spec stacking.
Doesn't solve the underlying issue though that you shouldn't be doing high end keys with no healer. It would be fixed quick if they're was a no tank meta.
@Theparadoxd7 That is not an issue there is 1 to 2 groups who are even trying higher keys without a healer in the WORLD.
And they are doing 26 when 31 is the highest keys.
Those people brick a TON of keys to get that one good run.
Those same people have done no healer keys for the last 3 expansions.
It is a gimmick not something you would do for the Highest keys.
Last season when Nerf and that group went with no healer they did 2 key levels HIGHER with a healer and even then that got off healing nerfed a lot.
There was a TOTAL of 5 groups in the top 5000keys in the world last season FYI.
So a total of 20people played without a healer in the top 5000runs and it got nerfed.
For live keys it is a gimmick for the people who are the best of the best it is still not better then to go with a healer in all cases.
@@havtor007You're not listening. You shouldn't be able to do high keys without a healer. Period. The fact you can exposes the issue that there's not enough constant healing requirements. And when you get into the lower end groups they aren't blocking that avoidable damage and then getting hit by the spike of damage and dying.
It doesn't matter how small a group is doing it, listen to Tettles and you WILL see more of it in the next MDI. Yes it probably won't be used for the highest keys, but that wasn't what we were talking about
@@Theparadoxd7 Explain WHAT is a High Key?
The highest key done without a healer is 4key levels BELOW the highest keys being done.
And it is done by a team that is specialized in playing without a healer having done so for 6 YEARS and EVEN THOSE guys do 3 key levels HIGHER with a healer then without one.
Even the people who have been doing this for years still do WAY higher key levels with a healer.
The fact of the matter is that it is a GIMMICK it is for FUN you might have heard about that word sometime it is not a thing you would be playing if you are trying to do high keys.
in the MDI it is real simple just make a rule about it (it used to be a rule in the past)
The highest atal'dazars in the world are being run without healers
Easy. You put all the cooldowns on one choice and make all of them selectable on that one button.
These issues would easily be solved if damage from bosses were set to a % of your health or a specific number of damage; whichever is greater. This way, players could not cheat mechanics with lower item level gear. It also would force a healer presence. Not to mention the MDI needs more regulations and needs more brackets. A melee bracket, ranged bracket, meta bracket, forced classes brackets.
Healing is supposed to be a challenge. Keys above 20 need better rewards. Mounts, pets, or even a token to upgrade gear; in this seasons example: 496 item level up to a certain number of items that match the rewards from mythic fyrakk.
Removing mana from healers would also make things more interesting and fun.
Then you also have 1 min and 1.5 min trinkets
The MDI key levels were 22's and 23's and the main reason no healer was needed is because stuff died so fast. No-healer runs were also only really viable on half the keys and even then, didn't perform that well because hybrids had to spend so many globals healing instead of doing damage. Using some 22/23 keys as proof that defensives are too strong or numerous is strange when 30's exist. The MDI also isn't representative of the game, it's pure speed running where DPS is all that matters.
I don't really understand what your desired end goal is. At the moment you press a defensive when you get a mechanic and live but if you don't press one, you die. That's good? The alternative is that you get a mechanic and do nothing? For Mythic raid mechanics, straight forward completxity like that is favourable to the private WA complexity Blizzard has leaned into. The game would probably be in a better state if complexity in Mythic raids was more a matter of survival rather than positioning/pairing/dispels that require addons to automate. You want raiders to spend more time injured and want less healing CD's which only promotes "blanket" healing. You want mana to "matter" but in a world where there is always healthbars to heal and CD's are weak you will only end up spamming your most efficient heal ad nauseum and stacking another healer if your raids throughput isn't high enough. We've been down this road before.
The strangest part about this crusade you're on is that you're petitioning to return to states of the game that we have already been in that all had significant problems. In expansions where whole raids were injured for longer periods of time Druids and Priests spammed Rejuv/Riptide non-stop and Hpals were brought specifically and solely for tank healing duty because their toolkit didn't provide blanket healing options. Later, when Hpals got EF they did nothing but mindlessly blanket entire raids with it. In expansions where healing CD's were much weaker than they are now every raid stacked DPS which brought defensive CD's for their raid. In expansions where healer mana "mattered" the most, healers mindlessly spammed their most efficient heals and never pressed AoE/burst healing buttons because they were too expensive and if raid throughput was too low they just brought an additional healer so 5 or 6 players could press Healing Wave or Healing Touch or Heal 200 times instead of 4 or 5 doing it. In expansions where individual defensive CD's were weak and few, raids stacked the ones with the best (Rogues for about a decade). Remember when all the melee DPS had weak/few defensive CD's in Legion and raids stacked 4+ Rogues?
I remember you saying at some point that you started playing WoW back in SL or BFA or some relatively recent expansions and your takes on healing throughout DF remind me of that. This notion you have of healers having complete control over healthbars, of mana being a resource to meticulously manage and where players stay injured for long times as healers select the perfect spells to use to heal them up have all been realized to varying extents in previous expansions and Blizzard have never been able to balance them or implement them well. The monkey paw always curled and the grass was not greener then that it is now. Especially in Mythic raids.
ain't readin allat
If I'm understanding the argument correctly, Theun is saying the pendulum has swung too far in the bursty direction. It's either 100% or 0% and the healer is the fourth best option to mitigate incoming damage after defensive (some classes over 5 of them), health pot, health stone, and finally healer but only if the hybrid healing effect button isn't enough.
Bursty AoE and CD strength is not just a problem for healers. It's rampant throughout the other two roles as well. Even if you're saying this is better than the old ways you don't like, that doesn't mean it's the best it can be.
I for one would appreciate some effort to bring it back towards a environment where healer skill expression was a thing and not just mashing big AoE heals and overhealing by 45-70% on every healing spell and then that's not even enough if the group doesn't use defensives.
I honestly think Theun is right here the pendulum has swung too much into personal defensive and dps self sufficiency. For me, healing was at its best during legion, at least from a raid healing perspective. During that time there was far less personal defensives, and in raid it took more than one heal to get people topped. BFA was slightly similar but toward the end of the expansion with corruptions healer power started peaking (especially holy pally with un-nerfed glimmer). Heading into shadowlands with stats being reset, Castle Nathria felt amazing to heal (outside of warriors and dks having the strongest raid cds). Once gear started to hit and it felt worse and worse to raid heal. With dragonflight scaling those even higher with more and more personal AND healer power creep. On the other hand, in dungeons I think the opposite was true for healing in dungeons during these times. Maining resto shaman through legion it felt like I could never top anyone in a key and struggled. Right now fells the best it has in a while. So personally, I think we need a healer scaling buff for effectiveness in dungeon content for primarily our single target abilities.
Theun's desired end goal is stated fairly obvious in this and in other videos. The goal is to make healer slower and less dependent on cds. It is not interesting, fun, or even skillful to have raid damage be decided by rotating through raid cds/healer burst combos until you win. In slower expansions like Cata, WOD or even TBC, you simply healed through the damage with your own ability. Even with faults, this is a fair better gameplay dynamic.
@@MrSups1 Isn't it equally uninteresting, unfun and unskillful to have weak CD's and weaker/fewer personal CD's because then the healing meta revolves about stacking efficient "blanket" healers and mindlessly spamming the same buttons over and over because there is always someone to heal and only 1 or 2 buttons to do it effectively?
In Cata we had Hpals blanketing groups with EF. In TBC it was Rdruids blanketing with Rejuv and Priests with Renew, and in WoD we had Discs doing the same thing with old PW:S and Divine Aegis. In WoD I remember healing feeling like a set rotation. Discs spammed Smite, Penance and PW:S mindlessly. Mistweavers kept RJW up and played their Chi rotation to press Uplift whenever raid damage went out while keeping ReM on CD.
CD's were much weaker in WoD but rotational throughput was so strong that as raids geared up and kill times dropped, we had healers solo-healing raids, even back in Highmaul and BRF, and especially in HFC. It was common practice for raids for progress with 4 or 5 healers and then drop down to 2 or 3 for farm and eventually 1.
I think healing could be better in DF and somewhat agree with what you and Theun have been saying regarding power creep and damage patterns but the push towards older Cata/WoD or even SL healing metas being the answer to that problem is where you lose me.
good topic, hope blizzard dev will see this..
"Raid healing is probably the worst that's ever been"... Did you even play Pandaria??? Healing in Pandaria was the pure definition of powerful as heck. I don't recall people complaining about that back in Pandaria. Healing in general has been changing in every single expansion, for example, healing in Wotlk is the easiest in WoW's history as the healers are ridicuously powerful, and I don't recall people complaining about that back in the day or even nowadays in Wotlk Classic. I am seriously questioning if these people actually played expansions like Wotlk or Pandaria where healing was powerful for real. Dragonflight's healing is nothing compared to those 2 expansions, oh and I just remembered about Legion's healing lol... Holy Paladins being able to top an entire 20 man raid from 1% to 100% with a single CD (Aura Mastery for the Aura of Sacrifice) or Disc Priest being able to do the exact same thing by timing their Artifact weapon's ability and so on... I am getting sick of these complains as they make absolutely no sense, but you know what? Let's have Blizzard change healing to what it was in early Cataclysm and then start complaining about not being able to move a player's HP bar with your most powerful spells.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Oh wow Aliena dang it has been a long time i heard that voice.
Tankspot was great.
Hunter at ilvl 487 with a stamina pet has 997 000hp with fortitude 1 050 000 000hp So where you get that 1.2million i do not understand.
under the effect of Fortitude of the Bear it is 1.2million but that is under one of the cooldowns and a 20% increase in hp for 10seconds.
lets look at a Mage to compare that to at 488ilvl (so yes 1 item level higher) you got 898 000hp, With Fortitude the mage has 943 000hp.
Hunter has around 70k more then a mage that is true However mage has a LOT more buttons and shorter cooldown
For mage you also have barrier a 22%+ vers shield on you with a 25second cooldown, (at the log i am looking at that is a 227 000 shield)
So the Effective health of a mage just using barrier is 1.1Million HP with Fortitude it is 1 180 000hp or close to 1.2million hp.
So just looking at Hunter and Mage as examples you say hunter has a lot of HP the reality is that Mage has a higher HP pool as long as they re apply shield when they can then Hunter has with a pet that makes hunters have less group utility.
And as someone who has played a healer you know how strong Abosrbs are compared to just having more HP or healing the damage back up.
But i do wonder how you get that hunters have 1.2million hp, when the reality is that with barrier up (should be up for a lot if not all of the damage intakes) Mage has more effective Hp then hunter.
I even looked at Azortharian and it is still not the case there.
I've been playing resto druid since 2005. I also have tank and played hardcore on several expansions. Only in this expansion, I stopped playing healer or tank. Because, the game and community is too punishing and the rewards do not worth it. Also i do not agree with def cooldowns. Now I play hunter and struggle in 26+ keys. Its just not fun anymore. Too many buttons to press, too many things to think, etc.. its just stresfull.
Bro you’re saying you have too many buttons to press as a hunter? Lmao go play FarmVille then
@@scaryeris6798 im speaking general about buttons. But i will consider your suggestion thank you.
Got this natty from the algorithm. Sign to play retail?
I guess constant RoT damage with burst of damage to bait out the defensives.
Also playing dps shamans, you can really feel the difference of you and every other class in the game with defensives. It feels like stuff is designed around you getting externals from paladins and such.
And thats not even in m+ only. In raid we cannot be seed carriers because we just die to the ramping DoT damage.
Power creep feels especially bad in Dragonflight, when every rework they have done has put more defensives into already very defensive classes.
Mage. Rogue and paladin to name a few. But of course, also mistweaver gained a disgusting amount of defensives this patch.
Anyway, rework shaman defensivs thx
To be fair the paladin rework with adding defensives was a must even blizzard had statistics on it being one of the least able to survive things in the game.
it's the vers mostly
get a class that stack vers and they are tanky period.
shaman get obliterated and i'm pretty sad for them frankly
Yeah. Vers is such a weird stat. But even then, there is a genuine large gap between shamans and litterally every other class in the game.
Spirit wolf. Its bear form with a 4 second delay.
Astral shift: very mid defensive. its decent, but as its major defensive it doesnt really do much.
Earth elemental: Scuffed desperate prayer with a force of nature tied to it. Has a 5 minute cd.
Baseline 8% max health buff and 2-3/4-6% magic damage DR
Have to give up major damage abilties to heal
Compare it to stuff like arms warrior
Spell reflect (25 sec cd) 20% magic DR. 90% (made up number) of damage in this tier is magic.
Ignore pain which doesnt really have a cooldown
Rally
Die by the sword which is pretty much astral shift with Evasion tied to it.
20% additional armor passively
Impending victory which barely even costs resource.
And this is not even the largest offender.
Classes like Mage or Warlock or rogue exists.
Vers only larges the gap even more, because it increases both damage, healing, and defensiveness.
So when specs dont have great other stats, they just stack vers and become unkillable.
I think they should help shaman and maybe remove the defensiveness part of vers
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PLEASE healing is so fucking boring. PLEASE Blizzard!
its over
Balance haha, this game hasnt been balanced for a few xpacs now
bro why do you go from saying "Fyrakk" and talking about one-shots, and then immediately the MDI discussing lvl ~25 keys. From the context, it implies you actually are discussing Mythic Fyrakk, not just any old Fyrakk. Cause i've done Heroic, and 1-shots are not that common. THEN directly after that, you roll right into a reference to the transition from Wrath to Cataclysm expansion, way before M+ dungeons existed or raiding had become so serious.
How do you not see, its YOUR perspective which has changed due to the evolution of your play capabilities. Your solutions would only work for a handful of people, maybe a few thousand at best, that small crowd of people who do M+ way past any possible relevancy it has for anyone in the game, due to their own boredom and addiction, combined with the luxury circumstances of having plenty of surplus time and nice computers and internet connection, which believe me, most people don't have.
I can agree that damage needs to slow down, be less binary, in order to give healers more time to heal. and also maybe dps need perhaps not their defensive tools removed, but nerfed a bit, maybe 30% across the board. but like, the way you are coming at this topic I feel it has at best a random chance of creating an appropriate solution that would appeal to the majority of players.
Healing is dying and that is only happening because it makes little sense in a "only damage output matters" culture. If you don't do damage you are irrelevant, wanna see healers thrive?
Take away all (or most) personals, Self healing hibrid classes keep their healing buttons (shamans/paladins/druids) albeit enough to heal like half their lives with all their mana spent there, but others such as warriors/rogues/mages, lose any self healing.
Give them *some* mitigation(like 1 or 2 2min cds), but definetly not enough to keep them alive for 20-30 seconds, they are not healers they shouldnt heal, they are not tanks they shouldnt mitigate damage.
Take away raid cooldowns from DKs, DHs, Warriors and whoever else has them, place them on a healer or a support spec. Make healers HEAL and not have to worry about their damage or other people's cds.
SLOW THE GAME DOWN, make us think strategically rather than having to have everything micro planned for every second of every fight. Resource management used to be what really diferentiated good from great. Also, Rushing through everything and seeing how much of the game can be either boiled down to AOEing it down, or how to entirely skip it, isnt skill. Going fast is not the same as being good.
This generates healing as a cicle of endless spamming things not really caring who or what you are healing, surely there are "some" mechanics you need to target heal, but mostly you are just keeping your riptide/glimmer/mending or whatever up and healing regardless of need. I don't need to feel like I have to juggle 2-3 class specific tools, plus 3-4 procs and when to use a trinket to feel good healing people.
But honestly the problem lies not in the "healing sphere" it lies in the WHOLE ENTIRE SYSTEM of what WoW has become.
King
Its actually pretty simple. You don't have to touch defensives. Dramatically lower incoming damage, and increase outgoing DPS requirements. Healing was fine in shadowlands. We don't need the healer role to be this rip fest it is now. People complained about healers having to dps then, and they still complain about it now. Let them complain. Go back to shadowlands healing.
Tru Tru
'healers feel to powerful' - besides you . i dont hear anyone else saying that - it seems like you want a game where gamers have to playing near perfect in order just to survive .. and you quote 'growl' - he is one of the best playing with the best - he is not a sample size to take any sort of meaningful data points from .. c'mon
@6:26 'We gained more CD's and power compared to Shadowlands - and thats a problem' - huh ?? more cool shit to top off and heal your dumb-ass party cuz pug'ers mostly suck - hrmm
@7:29 - again you mention growl - in that he is (obviously) the median in which - if he (or you) isn't challenged as a healer - then the game is wrong - healers are broken - nerf them into the ground
and then you go on repeating that this is the problem - obviously healers are too good - too many good abilities to press-
@8:29 - but then you go on to say that ' thats why people are struggling too much - healing feels so stressful - you are relying on others to press defensives so they wont die''
im so confused - gimme the TLDR of this
tldr is if healers are to strong the only way blizz can kill u is from smacking u for over ur full hp in a very small window forcing it to become a defensive or die meta, if they nerf healing and defensive creep the game doesnt have to "1 shot" u to kill u making healing feel less stressful as everyone doesnt have to be topped between every dmg event. it might seem counterproductive at first but it really is a positive for the game to nerf healers/defensives
What fuckin rock have you been living under? Everyone has been saying what Theun has been saying on the healing discords. Nobody likes this burst healing meta, not the healers, not the dps and the tanks are self reliant so unless they spec dps or healer their reaction has been "Huuuh?".
"it seems like you want a game where gamers have to playing near perfect in order just to survive"
My guy this is the world you're living in right now. He's arguing to go back to when healers could heal through the damage and not require the dps to defensive or die. Accidentally using a def too early or overlapping and gg you're dead in the next spike.
Exactly what acrn9293 said.
"'growl' - he is one of the best playing with the best - he is not a sample size to take any sort of meaningful data points from"
Good thing he's not basing everything off just what Growl said, more Growl is mirroring what Theun has been saying from the start of the expac and released multiple videos on it after talking to the other guide writers.
"@6:26 'We gained more CD's and power compared to Shadowlands - and thats a problem' - huh ?? more cool shit to top off and heal your dumb-ass party cuz pug'ers mostly suck - hrmm"
Go watch his other videos on healing issues for this expac, especially the parts where he's talking about the damage profile on sludgefist. But what acrn9293 said, this defensive or die meta is bullshit and I am on break until WW, if that doesn't look good I'll skip it I guess.
The lack of tuning to Resto Shaman's talent tree was a final straw.
Holy fuck please don’t complain about mistweaver monk. It’s literally the most fun it’s ever been and somehow you’re complaining?
Two things can be true at once. The spec is fun, and the spec also has access to far too much. Is requiring an external storage solution for all of your CDs and defensives part of the fun of the spec for you?
i know the vid topic isnt mainly about pvp but mw monk in pvp is absolutely braindead rn and feels unplayable against, its not in a good state
Do you think WoW devs care about this?
They only care about having gender confused dragons in game. Thats their priority.
Just imagine arena games with all these.