Forward Facing Sonar (FFS) YAY or NAY??
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- Опубліковано 17 січ 2024
- Pete and Dave have a special guest this week Musky Guru Scott Kieper!!! They dive into a very hot topic in this sit down interview about Forward Facing Sonar. Join us as we look into the pro's - con's of this new technology.
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This is probably the best video I’ve seen. It needs to be shared all over social media. It illustrates everything about musky fishing that made it what it is and also provides information on how much damage ffs,social media, bump boards,etc is doing to the sport. It’s about going out and enjoying nature and learning from nature. It’s not about playing video games and getting “likes” online from people you don’t even know. Honestly most of those people don’t care that you had success anyway. They just want to ask for spots, lures, intel, etc so that they can catch fish. Bottom line is our fishery is being destroyed and these fish are becoming almost numb to us anglers. Learn the water. Learn how water temperatures dictate fish location and behavior. Put in the time, work, and effort and feel good about becoming a successful angler by learning not by playing video games and showing off online. The memories and the sense of accomplishment made by catching Muskies without technology will live with an angler forever and will be far more rewarding and valuable than those made by staring at a screen
Great words there ... truly is too much emphasis the "catching" and exact sizes
This video should be a prerequisite for all beginner musky anglers. As a matter of fact, all musky anglers should be required to watch it. I have been musky fishing for over 20 years and I learned a lot from it.
Thank you gentlemen, great job!
It's not meant to be EASY. Great info men.
Nice to hear veteran anglers standing up for
ethics.
Agreed totally. Easy is actually almost never better, experience wise. In many cases people feel forced to compromise because of competition
All musky fishermen should share this video with every musky fishermen they know. I intend to.
Again, guy thank you and keep up the work.
Musky inc. should be sent this video and encouraged to send it to all members.
Thank you for speaking on this and elaborating. I personally LOVE the hunt of these animals, the challenge, the luck the blood sweat and tears put into this. Nothing is parallel to the time it takes, the countless hours and doing your own research in and out of the boat. I’m a bit sad to see this technology but not surprised it’s here. Seems as if someone is always trying to get the best/biggest result with the least amount of effort. For me…there’s something about earning every fish. Love you guys and thanks again.
Good stuff bro. Many certainly feel same - and overall I lean that way. I would like to have some fisheries available where the high end tech can be on the boat, but all turned off
This is 100% the truth. Technology is making musky fishing too easy for the people who can afford it.
I use a sonar just for water depth, drop-offs, and to see the structure on the bottom. It hardly catches a fish on the screen. I can have a day with no fish, then have a 2 musky day. That's what musky fishing is all about. That's my opinion, though.
Great episode, guys!
Thanks you guys for this video: It all needed to be said.1. Pete said its not going away (referring to FFS) so it boils down to handling. I agree. The obsession with measuring is a problem. BARBED HOOKS are a problem. For those who have caught a fair number of muskies I'd encourage us to bend over barbs, and water release (with a Grabb-It Tool I'd suggest) as many muskies as possible. Nets, bump boards and human hands damage / kill muskies. I know this from making mistakes and unintentionally killing muskies myself.
2. Ego is the result of insecurity. Blue thumbs temporarily relieve the pain of this insecurity for many. I don't know that it's muskies that are being hunted for as much as the relief from the pain of this insecurity. It'd be nice to see musky fishing be more of a sport than a hunt. Sport: an activity involving physical exertion and SKILL in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
3. Forward Facing Sonar removes nearly all of the mystique from muskie fishing. The mystique and sport is what I love about fishing for muskies. Leave it to Forward Facing Sonar and using live bait to remove all the mystique and sport respectively. I won't utilize either tactic either alone or in conjunction.
Great thoughts
Pete, thanks for having this conversation. I fish lake vermilion quite a bit and have had guys with FFS cruise by while fishing a reef and tell me there are no fish on that spot we already checked. It was defeating to say the least.
Yeah that's news you don't want to hear
whhaaaa
Excellent video! Thanks for sharing this. I'm worried about the future of musky fishing. I would support a full FFS ban.
Best you tube video I’ve seen of the year hands down!!!
Truly important discussions
This is similar to what thermal optics did to Coyote hunting. Most people lack the skill set to call in coyotes consistently in daylight. It used to be if you sucked at something, you worked at it. Instant gratification via technology has changed that. Remember kids, you still suck, you just have better results...
Lol, gotta love it when suck is used
Calling out the PMTT point blank is something that needs to happen on a more regular basis. As was stated, they are the premier tournament for muskies in the US. They have a massive influence and following and should be leading by example. Not just the handling and bumping of fish. But holding tournaments on the Eagle River Chain in the middle of summer is reckless. I believe that tech will continue to improve and will eventually get to the point where state DNRs will have to step in. The analogies to deer hunting was a perfect example. How long before that happens? Who knows.
Holding tourneys during a period likely to be hot water is silly
Cranking fish in as fast as possbile in the top 16 inches in the water column which most junior, unseasoned muskie anglers do.
In defense of the PMTT the FFS ban was a great example for the rest of the sport.
@@shaundekker3414 No it wasn't and for many reasons.
@@bryanwiitala8854 I do not agree. The ban was for a team abusing the technology. They had 7 FFS units on the boat and multiple 15+” graphs. Not the type of competition the PMTT or its paid entrants wanted anything to be a part of.
Tons of respect for these dudes.
I enjoyed watching this discussion, thanks for sharing. As you mentioned, the problem lies with the need of everyone to "keep up". As soon as someone becomes successful doing a thing, then the bar is raised and it's just a vicious cycle. I'm sure it's a tough decision for guides when the ROI is so favorable and with pressure to keep filling those seats. What's scary though is how fast this tech is evolving and we already have guys installing livescope displays into augmented reality goggles, so in the near future, it won't even be staring at screens, you'll be looking into space through your glasses and clicking on to fish with your fingers then and having your trolling motor and scope follow that fish around....and I'm not kidding. it's real, and it's closer than you think.
I hear you on that. It is the problem (it's too good) and if you feel like you must keep up - you do need it. I can't do the goggles; bridge too far and I don't feel at all good using FFS to chase muskie
This is a great video! I've only been fishing for musky for a few years now and we do it without any technology. This was technology I was considering when I purchase my boat but this video is making reconsider that decision.
Great conversation and very well articulated by gentlemen who have ethics. More of this needs to happen in the fishing industry.
Thank you bro ... boy I'm not sure on that other question but seems to me would make it a bit too easy to be called hunting
Maybe the best video ever for the well being of these fish!
Definitely needs to be discussed
Great discussion! Loved it. Facts! Sonar is a tool but fishing is an escape from screen time for me. A big part of musky fishing for me is the physical act of casting, trolling, etc and not just looking at a screen. I don't expect to catch big muskies all the time or expect to catch one every time out. I'm thankful for any and every one I catch!
Makes sense to me; there is no doubt enjoy it more not taking the "catching" part too seriously
For me, the best way to catch muskies is to fail. Trying to find out why we didn’t catch them drives you to learn them. Weather, structure, depth, water temperature, lure selection….and that’s just scratching the surface. FFS seems to take the mystery away from this fish.
Certainly does remove mystery
Amen brothers!! Great topics and conversations. Keep spreading the truth !
Thanks ... will keep at it
You guys have totally taking the words right out of my mouth.And the average person cannot afford these ridiculous prices for these units.I think that to many fish are being caught and how many are actually dying after being stressed right out.They might swim away but are they going to live for long?I guide on Lake of the woods and I have noticed there not as many as there used to be.So many of my spots that had fish on them for the last twenty years or so are gone.Plus I only measure fish that are like 45 inches or more.The small ones go so crazy in the boat so just let them go at the side of the boat. Thx guys for addressing this topic.
Tight lines
Thanks for watching and for offering thoughts. On the use of and how much is too much we will never all agree, but on fisheries health we can. Overall, with all the folks I speak with, things are getting tougher ... and when people on some of the largest waters on the continent are concerned via feeling population is reduced, it's really quite time to start paying attention and reacting to assure healthy fisheries
Being able to just point to a fish and see it react is crazy.
If your a pro do so with out reliyin on a screen.
Any tournaments need to ban this technology. If not start tournament for just these users
Thanks for a great discussion guys. After spending many years, and going through many struggles, to catch these crazy fish, and learning the ins and outs of musky hunting, i have to agree, ITS TURNING INTO A VIDEO GAME, OF INSTANT MUSKY GRATIFICATION! Happy to hear there are some Musky authorities out there, who still belive in the sport, and learning lakes, and the muskys, that are in the lakes.
Thank you
Excellent video.
I’m a very novice musky fisherman.
Spent the last 60 years chasing bass and sunfish.
Now that I’m retired I want to spend more time fishing Muskies.
I have a flasher and two graphs on my boat.
I’ve tried using the side imaging feature, but I gave up.
I’ll keep it at the basics.
I would like to see more of this content.
Thanks.
From a matter of enjoyment - you are likely much better off keeping it simple; if you simply avoid comparisons to others' catching - your experience will be great
@@petemaina7073
I prefer to keep it simple.
Thank you.
These fellas are my generation and ideology. I commend you guys for this frank discussion. These attention deficit devices now have anglers glued obsessively to their screens just like watching a video game. You can bet these companies take advantage of that knowledge especially targeting younger up n coming anglers. I grew up watching my father lining up trees on vermilion to mark the reef he found fish on. He wouldn't throw a marker float because he knew others would key on it. It amazed me. I think technology is making us lazier. Hell our kids coming up now don't know what it's like to carry a bag full of books, notebooks,folders etc home to spend hours reading and highlighting, taking notes. It's all done on a damn screen. That's my grumpy old man rant. Lol
😂 Nicely done on the rant! Agreed ... yet I see the side of using it too. Main concern for me is how hard will it be on fishery
@petemaina7073 I'm with you. There are positive points for use also, as pointed out in this video very well. I still have dad's Lowrance flasher he picked up back in the day and it still does the job. Lol
@@craigrock8444 Very cool
Scott is the best guide in northern WI and it's not even close. FFS is going to be the worst thing, for muskies especially, that has happened to fisheries in decades. It has been proven that snagging muskies using ffs is not only easy but it's happening already. Let's not even get into what it's going to do to pan fish and crappie populations over the next 10-15 years and muskies will take the blame for that because you know "they eating muh damn crappies"
Definitely a good reason to discuss and keep a close eye on fisheries and listening to folks on the water every day; especially small waters can be damaged quickly
Excellent video here! It is a touchy subject walking a super fine wire in my opinion. I don’t believe it belongs in tournaments at all. I don’t think people should be using it to specifically “snipe” and target fish all day… but I do know people who genuinely use it to find vegetation, break lines, bait schools, etc.
Like mentioned, you do need to practice and understand the graphs - not everyone can just turn it on and go. However, I agree with both sides and it has its uses IN THE PROPER HANDS. My biggest concern is conservation of the fish and am ultimately going to work towards that, regardless of how difficult or disadvantaged.
Thanks for your contribution to this discussion. Most informative and important muskie video I have seen. The emphasis on proper handling is so critical. I think more frequent use of cutting hooks is another way to reduce fish injury...there's a reason the fishing videos often edit out the brutal hook extraction process. There needs to be an amount of fairness applied if there is going to be sportsmanship. Give these magnificent animals a chance...so there can be a future.
Good words there!
Lots of good points, thanks for changing my mind (for the better I believe).
Thanks for watching
Ffs is good ,for guys that don't get a lot of time on the water . If you can fish daily you're lucky others don't get the time .
Oh it's definitely helpful and can't really blame people who use it
Began the Muskie career back in the 80s with a wooden yardstick as the only measuring device, surprise they float. Just anecdotally, but I have seen numerous conditions where using electronics to locate structure and then going completely silent and drifting like we used to do seems to produce more follows and strikes on certain bodies of water
Good stuff there
I appreciate you guys discussing this topic and putting this information out there. I've watched all 3 of your careers and have learned a lot that has contributed to me putting a lot of fish in my boat. I have a lot of hard work put in on a lot of wisconsin waters that is now negated by this technology and I am not thrilled about it, but I will say, I have had the same issue with guiding in general for years. I've read every article and bought numerous videos and hot spots maps, but I've never hired a guide. I see the impact that your specific content and the guiding do on small waters that I fish. I've seen fisheries degrade and pressure go way up on extremely small water and I attribute it to guiding and some of your guiding and the specific content some of you have put out. This definitely changes the game and levels the playing field, but in terms of earning it, how many people that you have guided to big fish or great waters and spots actually earned it? Many people have caught bigger fish than me on guided trips, caught fish i targeted for a season with a guide, a don't get me started on guided trolling trips, it bothers me, but I suck it up and keep fishing. I think this technology is a reality just like so called fisherman that hire guides and the guides that take them to the spots that take years to learn, it is taking the allure away from the hobby and it is driven by money. The sonar companies have created something that competes with your experience and if you want to stay competitive you'll need to evolve. I don't have plans to add ffs, I fish out of a 16ft lund with GPS and sonar only and draw my line with what i can read and watch in my spare time and I feel good about the fish I catch. Do what makes you feel good as long as it is legal. Hopefully we adjust the laws as needed to have a sustainable fishery for generations to come. I definitely have my doubts, and that's sad because fishing in northern Wisconsin changed my life for the better and I am not sure where I would be without it.
This is great! I think from both the comments and the video there are so many ways to look at this, I fish to get away from all the tech in my day to day and spend time with my pops and brothers. In that case I don't need it, im all in with the idea of breaking down a body of water and finding fish naturally. BUT in a competive situation I think this is where the "Yay" or "Nay" come in, because honestly we are free to do whatever we want, but a competive situation changes that. The combo of FFS & Social Media is what the issue is, the respect for the fight the fish gave you, is lost when you spent a day hammering fish, being walked through the process as mentioned in the video. The important thing about this convo is that we clearly define where we are coming from, a musky fishermens concerns are different than a bass fishermen, as governing bodies will listen to the dollar signs coming from this "debate" in fines and regulations.
Good thoughts. Overall we know impossible for all to agree on points of too much of anything. To me fishing and hunting is more enjoyable when the catching/killing part is considered the most important part
Guides work hard, locate fish then return time after time. I remember in the Hayward paper seeing the same fish three times over the summer.
Using ffs improves the odds. Consumers have choices, a found fish or location with a guide or discovering your own with technology or just fishing. That’s right, a cold one, brewers game and a mepps. Now we’re talkin.
😊
Excellent show, Pete Not only has FS effected Muskie fishing for also Bass fishing. The younger angler today only spends time starring down at their electronics. They have no idea of fish movement and the enjoyment of piecing the puzzle together. Proper fishing ethics are all a thing of the past. They have to measure and weigh every fish and the time it spends out of the water is a death sentence. Unless states step up and pass regulations on electronics and tournaments the future of the sport seems to be very dim.
Well in the end the fisheries' health is truly everything- and tools making the average angler profoundly more effective combined with marginal handling screams problematic
I think the ONLY reason why I could see FFS being used is in a vertical jigging scenario. It's very similar to using a flasher, just more advanced. However, I don't and will never use it. I was in the boat with a bass guy that had it and I didn't see the enjoyment in it. Like you guys said, it takes away the mystery and the excitement of a follow or a hit, as well as the SKILL and KNOWLEDGE of fishing in itself. There have been many guys' careers made off of FFS, not even just necessarily musky fishing, but the industry in general that I'm not sure would be anywhere near the top without it.
Great discussion! I hope there are more planned in the near future. I love Pete’s take starting at the 46 minute mark…it’s about the hunt, that is what guys talk about over a beer.
Absolutely... the events of the day and how it all went down
Most informative Musky video I've seen. Thank u so much! Couldn't agree more.
Thx for watching bro
Very well said!!Agree 100%..unfortunately, people suck and too many will do whatever they want to do..selfish and don't care..😓😓
Loved this discussion and you all made good points, for example how tech needs to be used ethically and Educating without preaching is definitely a challenge. We have to keep the priorities straight...the resource needs to be number one
Everone needs to realize how small this resource is and how long it takes us conserving it for 20-30 years before we get trophy class fish 45+". Many trophy lakes have less than 0.2 fish per acre total. So a 500 acre lake maybe has 100 adult fish! Maybe a handful 45+... It won't take much to eliminate our trophy fisheries if people don't use this tech ethically and once caught handle these fish properly.
That being said FFS and side imaging does open the door to the weekend warrior averge angler to go out get on fish quickly and putting baits on them when time is limited. Guides have the luxury of spending 200+ days on the water learning behavior and structure. SI and FFS are going to help averge anglers learn fish behavior faster and break down structure better. This puts the average angler on almost even playing feild as a guide.
The big question is can our fisheries handle this added success, possibly by anglers who may not have the skills yet to handle fish especially trophy fish, and will even a small percentage of anglers who don't care about ethics be able able to destroy our resource because it is so small?
Good thoughts ... not much to add other than we really need to keep an eye on fisheries - as evidence so far and certainly common sense indicates fisheries will have problems keeping up
I'd like to meet someone who got 'hooked' on muskie fishing because it was so easy. Those that get hooked on muskie likely love it for the challenge, time learning the water, the hard work and the satisfaction when your knowledge and hard work pay off with a fish safely released. I have never used FFS and I have no interest in ever using it. Could it put more fish in the net? Absolutely. Would I have the same level of satisfaction in that FFS catch vs. one that I didn't know was there, but my experience and commitment produced? No way.
Great point there
awesome video! thank you publishing this, gentlemen. tom hulbert
Appreciate you watching and comment... is a topic(s) that will never be completely agreed upon, but since everyone is talking about it important to bring it out
Great discussion. I've been against FFS since it's inception. The only application I can accept is for navigating treacherous water such as a shield lake that isn't well mapped. One point I was surprised not made is the impact on the rest of fish species. It isn't just musky anglers using this technology unethically. Watch Larry Smith outdoors with Big B on the madison chain follow schools of crappie around all spring on upper mud lake which is a small pond between Monona and waubesa. Multiple trips a day with several clients all catching their limits. It's disgusting. Too much of a need for instant gratification. I enjoy the hunt and trying to put the pieces together. Learn more from your failures than your successes.
❤
This is a so very important conversation topic that needs to be discussed for Muskies and even FFS effects for all other fish from panfish to Muskies. Thank you for posting this video and discussing this topic.
Thanks and you're welcome ... totally agreed these issues certain aren't exclusive to muskies
Important to note is Muskies are especially susceptible to being detected by FFS given their size.
Despite having electronics/gps, I still use trees/houses etc… 😂
Do have to love the old fashioned ways of location 😍
Hope to hear what the professionals are thinking soon!
Whoever’s place this is… their seasoning game is really on point!
Thanks bro 😂
It's hard one I've been after muskies for 52 years had good years and other years fought for just getting a couple. Ego does come into worked hard all day for one strike got off next to boat, seeing a guy scoping getting a huge amount of fish is humbling. But then getting a fifty in my kayak with just a helix 5 man that was satisfying.
Good stuff. Actually one of the biggest lessons in the discussion is likely to completely avoid comparing your experience to that of others... would naturally translate to better fish handling too
Excellent topic on what would be construed as a controversial topic (FFS) based on what your generation is. Not much of a debate in the video (and I mean that in a good way). Frankly, IMO, debating for it yields little material. I'm an "old" guy as well. Musky fish lakes for decades to understand them. I'm not a trailblazer, went to side imaging just three years ago. It is so easy to fall for the ease of cruising by a spot you know as holding fish in the past only to move on to the next spot if you don't see a fish on SI. The fisherman would have cast the spot in the past to understand if a fish was there before moving on. Not sure what you would call that person now. But it's not a fisherman. I don't know that I'd ever go to the FFS at this point. I agree on the devastating potential on the species we love. Also, spot on with the other topics. Learned a borderline lesson on water temp last year, week of July 4. Upper 30" fish caught from 2 FOW at just over 79 degrees. Left it in the net for a quick unhooking of the Hellhound. Son pulled from the net for a quick photo in the boat. No more than 15 seconds out of the water. Placed the fish back in the water to release. Took 2 minutes to eventually swim off (slowly). If caught in October, it would have released in a flash. Great learning through this video in how I'd handle it differently in the future (don't target at that temp). Way too much to comment on... Excellent topics and video. Let the heads explode with the generation(s) that are debate challenged.
Thx for comments. That heat topic is one very simple and important one. The fish never lie... and they never handle high heat well
Kudos to Dave for making a great case to keep fishing, fishing. Very disappointed in Pete's weak "I don't like it" position. Life is short, don't spend it sitting on a fence....
trail cameras with cell service are the same with hunting.
I agree. Can't do that ... yet I don't get mad at others really as it's fair chase perception
This needs to be adressed...
This is being used on pike, walleye and perch in sweden and the pressure is unreal... Its now cool to fish and put it up on social media.. So many new people coming in to fishing dont give a shit about the fish.. Its all likes that matters.. Flashy boat, flashy gear and latest electronics chasing fish like its videogame... Gonna destroy waters for sure...
Thank you for this program..
Appreciate your thoughts; thanks! Yes, I see and hear of a lot of use overseas; possibly even more than here ... naturally this is a topic with much disagreement; one thing I expect is that while the handling can change to ensure better release, the tech isn't going away and will get more effective and easier to use; more important than ever to try to monitor fisheries to stay ahead of potential significant depletion
These tools are devastating. My personal crappie hole was cleaned out in a week by two guys and their pals. I had babied it for twenty years.
They idle around the lake find it and clean it out.
That is one obvious problem. In unethical hands, much damage can be done quickly
Unfortunate seeing what musky fishing has become. People with FFS going out a catching multiple a day without any hardwork has taken away from why musky fishing is so cool.
It's a tough call though, I like the better line, rods ... but advanced map chips and sonar systems I wish never came as my time spent would be way more valuable w/o it
These guys seem like they are piss*d off from the Packers/49ers game.
Muskie fishing is a complete waste of time and money. Talk about vanity!
Some people as guides... get to fish 1000x more than an average joe who gets out 2-3x a year, they catch and handle how many fish & get paid? , you guys commercialized it to begin w/no? slippery slope to ride on, that said good podcast , always enjoy listening to you pete.
Absolutely true. And knowing exactly where bread is buttered (healthy fisheries) - when making a full or partial living off of it, especially; we should have some concerns and put forth some efforts to assist in taking care of it (IMO that goes too for companies producing fishing related items). Essentially part of the topic here too, is fair chase (very similar to hunting ... with crops/feed/camera ... everyones' ideas of when hunting turns to simple harvest likely differ) - but the resources being depleted needs to have a close eye on it. It's a lot to bring back if it gets too far, and in reality younger fishing guides have the most on the line financially
Oh, and full disclosure too; I have certainly been a hypocrite as well ... in hunting, not being my business - I have stuck to the basics cuz it's what I enjoy (no food, cameras ...) ... but when I hated the mapping coming out (from the selfish point of basically eliminating my thousands of hours of advantage I had via learning structures) - I started using all the mapping on new waters and side imaging too. The tech is so amazing you truly can't keep up without it - if catching fish is the main goal.
Technology has ruined a lot of aspects of life and you can add fishing to the list. It started with the internet. There are very few secrets anymore. FFS is the next nail in the coffin. It's lazy and blurs the divide between people who work hard day in and day out and the weekend warior. We live in the age of instant gratification and this technology isn't going away. This wa a very interesting and refreshing conversation.
Thank you. It's truly a tough topic... I find it impossible to blame anyone choosing to us it really it though, cuz it is amazing in what it can show... but can fisheries take it
In my opinion it’s going to do serious damage to Muskie fisheries. The sport has never been more popular and easier. I think that’s a deadly combination. I suspect mortality rates are going to go way up.
Awesome discussion, I wish it was never invented
That would have been the easiest, but sadly not the case; agree with you totally on that - yet can understand why companies want to offer better tools making it easier. It sells
Fantastic job fellas!
😊
Speaking facts!!! Great video!!!
Thank you
tournaments putting money on fishing is a disaster.
I use it but not all the time. You have to be honest with yourself, and realize that it’s not as gratifying to catch a fish with forward facing sonar. It’s like going to a game farm shooting pheasants versus wild birds. You have to walk all day long in fields to get one or two birds. On the game farm you’re still walking and you’re still shooting but you know it’s not as satisfying.
Second issue is the sustainability of the technology. It’s a concern since many people now don’t know how to take care of a fish that are using this technology. People are catching fish out of 60 and 70 feet of water. Obviously they’re killing the fish. but you also have to remember the old days. Everybody would kill every fish they could that was over 36 or 40 inches. The fish were still there albeit not as big. So I think if we do push better handling of the fish at both side, it is sustainable.
It’s hard to know where the cut off is. I’m gonna guess most of the people against this are still for side imaging. I use side imaging for sand and rocks. These are places it’s hard to use FFS. But make no mistake, I’ve gotten so good at using it in weeds. I can even see fish tucked on the bottom next to weed lines.
The same discussion applies to Crappie fishing and walleye. I actually have gone and done more smallmouth fishing on the riverbecause it’s the enjoyment that I’m after with fishing.
Good thoughts; definitely hard to know anything for certain on these topics, but important to be on watch of how fisheries handle it
I would be OK if they banned it completely or until mid-July in MN. Thanks for replying @@petemaina7073
I've asked this same question on bass vlogs, how is ffs different/harmful to fisheries than guiding and tourneys? Guides do the same basic thing as ffs: aid the angler in getting on and catching fish. Only guides generally KNOW bodies of water, where the fish are, what they're biting, when they're biting, where the 'real big' ones are, etc. I honestly don't think a noob like me, with ffs, getting on a body of water with zero knowledge about it is MORE harmful than a guide going out every day with a new boat of anglers and literally showing each new group the 'spots'. I think if a lot of pros are honest, they'd have to see that their profession (guides) is essentially doing the same basic thing as technology. now, I am not in favor of ffs, but I also do not hire guides. If we are talking purist fishing, I think its a bit hypocritical to dis tech but load up the boat with guys and literally show them exactly where the fish are. Not meant to be divisive, just think the whole fishing industry has jumped the shark on putting advances ahead of fisheries for decades. jm2c
Can't argue those points; strictly looking at the reality of it - if the fisheries decline significantly for whatever cumulative set of reasons ... everyone is out of business
Good for you guys!
It needed to be said by people we look up to.
coming from the bass side of things, i saw it all last year. Fish are boat shy and disperse with so much as a shadow. I cannot graph humps as they just dart off. Guys running fish around flats during derbies. Constant fish harassing etc
That's the interesting thing to ponder with all of this - where prior they heard/felt all the "noise" but now with FFS they have been directly associating it with lures dropping on their head regardless of where they swim ... until they get far away. Sure sounds like they are learning avoidance like never b4
Lot of good points in this video, however it was a bit hypocritical to talk about how critical it is to keep fish in the water and then show a clip where Pete and Josh are holding a fish out of the water and talking for the camera, showing no signs of urgency
Agreed. Probably should always show more urgency to get 'em back; even if conditions have us more relaxed should show it and talk about it; September fish, low 60 temps; off the hook quick; no other handling than the hold-up and took off great ... however does look casual
Forward facing sonar and side scan turns it into a video game. That isn't fishing. Put an asterisk* next to all those tainted catches.
It's true ... where the lines are crossed for individuals may vary, but I do believe it's fair to say there is a line of "too effective" that can be crossed
I will say I sure do get a kick out of the EXACT measurements people are after when measuring fish. “We got “50 1/8 no 50 1/4 no 50 1/2, 51” 51” 51” 51” that a 51” folks, wait was the mouth open and did we check both tips of the tail? We better try that again” ok maybe I went overboard but it still is pathetic in my opinion
Is really quite silly unless in a tight tournament I guess; but these precise measuring sessions do take lots of time out of the water and what is the difference in the experience
NAY for me-- I love to search and find fish on my own-- I do use a Sonar for finding structure / Bait.. But I don't see myself ever using the Forward Sonar. It will definitely hurt fishing --especially in many smaller lakes. But Hey--If it's legal guys are going to use it--and they are well within their right to do so.
Hear that
Bravo fellas. Bravo!
ETA why is guy trying to be a diplomat?
I would fish with you guys any time.
Petes right, fair or not, good idea or cheating, genie isn’t going back in the bottle.
Is very unlikely
Even FFS/Livescope won't catch fish, when there's none left to catch
I also agree with them about the bumb boards. Who needs to know the length of a fish down to 1/1000th of an inch? I have a floating measuring stick that I bought from R&H years ago that I still use to this day if I really feel the need to measure a fish and the fish never needs to leave the water and it doesn't remove any slime. As for the PMTT, it's all about money for the sake of the future of the sport.
Thx for thoughts. Exact dimensions - do exactly nothing to add to the experience. In boat measurement and holding photos are both bad for fish and much better done in water if desired. Photos for remembrance seem more important comparatively
Fantastic show gents
Thx Jake
I'm going to be that guy, I obviously have to mention I've never been in the boat with FFS but your conversation is heavily loaded to the downside of it, not that I personally see an upside. But you need to have both sides of this, to be honest, guys rely on their electronics, 2d & side imaging, but we're gonna act like jamming 5/0 hooks in these fishes face, dragging them to the net, where they fight for their lives is a good thing. Let's be honest, treble hooks do more damage to any fish that we expect to release then anything we do, add these nets in, we ain't helping them. It's a fine line, we're at that point. Just take all the electronics off your boat, go fish or just realize man is his own worst enemy
Hard to argue any personal points or opinion really as all valid. Main question really is what can fisheries handle w/o being significantly depleted
ONG this is insane 😂😂😂 49:05
It takes a fair amount of education and effort to understand fish habits and apply that understanding to a bathymetric map. It takes a few outings and a user manual to start seeing fish on FFS. You want to see fish and habitat put on a mask and fins! Using sonar and side imaging to find structure and fish is one thing but I draw the line at chasing them down with live imaging.
It's always the few who ruin it for the many. This technology is ruining angling. The worst part is it can only get more accurate and easier to use... I appreciate the video and the holistic attitude you guys have for these animals.
Is a tough one and see all sides. Companies produce amazing tech that does make it better/easier; impossible to say people that use it are horrible - or the exact opposite are bad or wrong. Certainly will be important to keep a close eye on the fisheries
Smallmouth fisheries are getting hammered. Crash 2 for the Green Bay perch fishery is going to include walleyes when it happens. Boat ramps are bout as congested as a Chicago local road. There’s this massive wave of guys I’ve never seen before coming out. These fisheries have never been hammered like this. Testament of technology, work from home guys, fishings exposure through media, everyone getting the umpteenth loan to buy a boat. It’s a bubble essentially. We’ve got a big wave of chest pumpers coming out with “names”, like no guy idk who tf you are nor do I care, but you weren’t here a decade ago.
Yeah at the end of it all - it is - are the fisheries going to be able to handle (?) - and it's the cumulative effects of growing pressure - with wildly expanding effective tech tools, information ... and including a mantra of expanding opportunities in many places allowing for longer seasons (recently proposed in WI to allow targeting of muskies during spawn; something very few people were even asking for) ... also social media encouraging displays of "catching" including how many fish can possibly be held up at once with 2 hands ... and if anything a reduction of focus on proper handling to ensure effective release and minimizing harvest ... with no significant increase in stockings.
Long gone are the days of row trollers working open water. Perhaps, guides may feel threathened by the FFS. Same way back when electronics first came to fishing. Technology will always change everything. It will change fishing. That is not ambiguous.
True that
I do not have the tech today. I have condsidered the 360 tech to find and learn structure. I think of the revolutions in fishing that have changed us. GPS and spotlock have changed the game. Find something, save it, go back to it, and stay on it. Not as useful for Musky fishing, but revolutionary non the less. I have never used the FFS and dont want to watch a video game, I want to fish.
P.S. You guys are the bomb. Great discussion
I wanna have a beer with you guys. There is a guide in SE wisconsin who has exploited fish populations with this tech and I worry as you do that spawning fish populations will be destroyed.
The fishery health is the most important topic... can it handle the extra pressure
Every new guy i know want a 50 incher and they think it gonna be easy after watching UA-cam,but when they have a day with a guide they know musky fishing….not,they buy rod reel bait ,after some month of been skunk they buy the ffs and burn spot
One more thought- how are these legal but using thermal drones for whitetail hunting is not??
It's been far to long since others have spoken out against it.
It's like books compared to a movie. The printed book took effort and imagination to see the story. To sit down and watch the movie, you miss out on the punch line.
Hard to argue with that
I’m not a fan. Tried it with a guide once and to me it’s like road hunting. I’m here for the struggle, if it’s easy then I’m not interested. I wish people would talk more about how bad the boga grips are too. Only used one once (with a guide) and it absolutely tore up a big pike’s face.
Yeah not a big fan of those bogas, especially when holding whole weight of fish, but they can do some nasty tearing
Fishing is Angler vs Fish....Not Technology vs Fish...Fish today have no chance against video game fishing
I’m trying to listen thoughtfully to your insights on technology, but the irony of no footage being used from the GoPros sitting front and center is pretty overwhelming….
I have to blame myself for that!!! Thanks for coming in and watching part of it. I enjoyed your recent video thanks for that it was rather enjoyable.
You'd have to ask Brown on that one
@@davebrown318 Hi Dave, we need a mix of “old guys” and “young guys” in these important conversations. Even if someone doesn’t agree that tech has gone too far already - it has to be considered as an ongoing possibility.
Do appreciate your diving into the crappie/deep water mortality... while impossible to exactly, as much truth as possible on survivability very important
@@uncutangling I spoke to the tech in a positive direction myself, We do value all point of views on this stuff. We would love to sit down and do one with your feedback if you would like.
I didn't see all the bitching when side imaging came out. It also changed how people fish, now you can scan 100 ft each side, makes finding brush piles and rock piles 100 times easier.
Fishing is evolving in all aspects, sonar, baits, line, rods and reels.
How about we just go back to the old flashers, fiberglass rods with mono line and 1970's lures.
True. I think the maps, side Imaging... all put more pressure on fish obviously; FFS just a bit more drastically effective in what it shows so got more attn
FFS is going to decimate the sport of fishing every sanctuary spot the fish have will be hit within a couple of years. I believe the Musky fishing will be decimated even quicker. It’s a great technology for Fish and game department, marine biologist etc, but should be removed from sport fishing
Ultimately regardless of opinion ... I am very worried about fisheries... without significant stocking don't think can handle it
Outlaw forward facing sonar
I don't see that as an option. Not fair to companies unless all agreed. Have to self educate and monitor fisheries health
FFS is the same as live sonar for ice fishing. Going to cancel that to? Is side imaging too much? What about size of screen? Is 12” too big? Is 15” too big?
Also, if you’re talking about the fish starting to react negatively to the sonar then it’s already slipping as a an excessive advantage.
No argument from me. It's amazing technology ... the what is too much line is drawn by individuals. I do think the fisheries handling it is the big question
Guides help us all. Also true that they put fisherman after fisherman on the same hotspots. Perhaps they are a danger to the resource. FFS and other technologies have forever changed the game. The only thing that will save our natural resources is ethical and fish friendly handling and harvest.
Truth there. Doesn't matter how the fish die: angling harvest, speaking harvest, unintentional death via hooking or delayed mortality handling or more caught for any reason... healthy fisheries are required to have fishing
80 on Superior ?? hard to believe
Huge difference between a bay or main lake
Using FFS is really no different than shining for deer. I'd be fine with outlawing it. Generations now want everything to be as easy as possible. Learn how to be outdoorsman and fisherman the old fashioned way. Boots on the ground and time on the water will give that satisfaction of earning your catch.
Id say a heavy majority of guides and anglers have negative opinions on the effect of FFS on fisheries even though they end up using it anyway to keep up in the industry, and its strange how the majority are afraid to speak up on what they care about afraid to offend the minority who like it. From what I can see, the people who defend FFS are either heavily sponsored, or were just plain bad anglers without it, and now they have an easy button to be on the same or better level than those who put in years of work and education to earn the skills. It’s also indisputable that unethical use of FFS is resulting in heavy fish kill, ESPECIALLY muskies. The future of fisheries is not a bright place if DNR and legislation don’t take a stance against it soon.
Yes, lots of opinions all over the map on use ... biggest thing to watch is fisheries' health; at the end of the day/discussion - that's really all that matters
Seems like a happy medium might be to change to barbless only when using ffs. Dumb?
Not dumb. I think overall barbless a good idea that would save a percentage of caught fish... but IMHO not enough to be a game changer compared to general (too much) handling and potentially FFS
So Scott sounds to be old school and he earned his experience and knowledge. Many like easy, quicker, get it done NOW. Seems like the trend in American culture in general. it's sad actually but who am i to judge. Hunting is dealing with the same BS, social media, big dick swinging contests.
All thoughts good ... and yes, the amazing tech is here and while old school very understandable and agreeable, impossible to find fault IMO with those who choose to use it (unless knowingly so on fish very unlikely to survive); more important than ever to monitor fisheries' health though. And yes on hunting too (love to do it) ... when see vids of so many animals is a matter of picking one - yet with the problem of waiting to get a shot where you only take one - at least to me doesn't seem like "hunting"
Going out and finding fish is what the hunts all about. Go float a river with no technology and catch one on the fly . That’s fishing. Everyone is a guide and expert on Facebook after they catch there first 36” fish. Social media and man’s Ego is the real enemy of fishing. Just how old are you guys (pmtt) . Grow up! Tournament fishing ? Get real.
❤
Sounds like ALOT of this stuff is ego driven even in your own arguments. You have an issue/problem with the way others enjoy their experience. You have to eliminate that before the discussion can even start. Question. If I use technology in a way that hypothetically does not affect fish populations but does make fishing more difficult am I selfish? Because most of what I'm hearing is you guys describing the chase well if the chase is more difficult isn't that most of the satisfaction?
We all have ego, so guilty, yes. I happen to have good friends who use it; and a couple involved in producing it (all good folks IMO). We'll never all agree on what's "fun", fair chase ... the bigger problem in a way is that technology is so cool and effective that those more purist know they're disadvantaged comparatively... lots of ways to spin it; but at the end of it all it's the fisheries and how will they (can they) handle it. The combination of amazing tools - on top of more/longer handling ... and specifically FFS being used in deeper ranges in warm/hot (basically knowingly 'likely" taking that fish out of the system). When I hear from guides on massive Canadian Shield lakes talking about their concerns ... certainly time to discuss it
Thanks for responding Pete. I'm more concerned about the fisheries themselves. I don't want the discussions to devolve with concern about who is catching what and how many because they have some sort of advantage. Those who are avid anglers will always appreciate those who blazed the trail before them and those who take the easy route will eventually fade away.
@@andrewscholten8734 You bet. But yes main focus gotta be the resource; in discussions with many - we wonder how smart/educated to FFS (any pings) and baits can they get; there does seem to be a significant difference since tech allowed for efficiently putting baits right on their head. Most folks report tougher fishing overall and definitely fewer follows. I don't honestly know if more of it is fish learning avoidance or simply significant'y fewer fish
It would be significantly better "discussion" if you had somebody on the other side with a different perspective. Very one sided debate here. So many guides that complain about FFS come off as being more concerned about losing their advantage over their competition than the actual impact of FFS. It's always a good thing to catch more fish and your disingenuous to say otherwise. Your entire career has been to help people catch more fish. In fact, every fishing consumer product in the history of fishing has ALWAYS been attempting to give the angler an advantage on the water. This technology isn't going away, adapt and teach anglers how to use it ethically rather than just saying NAY or you'll quickly be passed by a younger generation that embraces it.
Thanks for thoughts! Agreed on the tech and many points bring up; the tech is amazing ... IMO we will never know any exact effects of FFS (only reason getting big attention is because a big step over previous tech from distance and at speed) simply because many cumulative effects on resulting in more pressure ... for the record I have many good friends (that remain so) that use it. You can say one sided as leans that way, but Dave and I offered the other side; and while we didn't ask the world, finding a volunteer heavy proponent not easy. (We would if someone would like to) . Agree the tech is not going away; knowing there will never be full agreement on what/how "fishing" is, the big question is can the fisheries handle it. The trend is and remains to be increased pressure with better tools, more handling, overall less stocking (all species) and to some degree we have yet to understand - learned avoidance. I get and generally agree with your comment about disingenuous. However, when you hear from people all over the continent (and some from overseas) - from very old to very young (a fair number of younger people have reservations - yet simply use it to keep up; 100% understandable) ... in knowing that from direct conversations - yet many just afraid to publicly speak of it; I would argue it would be disingenuous not to talk about it. FFS gets a bigger piece of the attention being very effective and "new", but in reality a smaller part of the whole picture. Again, appreciate your thoughts - do like to hear all sides
@@petemaina7073 Really appreciate you taking the time to respond Pete. For the record, I exclusively use FFS for locating and staying on structure, mostly for ice fishing (reason why I got it). I will use it in a similar way a few times a summer when I take my young boys (who have very little patience at their current age) out panfishing. We have an absolute blast as I can immediately get them and keep them on fish. Without it, I'm otherwise quite worthless fisherman, unless I'm targeting muskies. So while I'll never likely use it musky fishing (outside of sucker fishing), I do get a bit defensive from the NAY crowd as there are several degrees to it's application, it's not black/white. Judge me all you like, but it's been an incredibly important tool getting my young boys to enjoy fishing. They are the future of fishing and they are basically handed tablets/technology the day they are born. The next generation will fully embrace FFS tech and I believe it's vital there are good role models in the industry to advocate for it, for the future of the sport. I think any concerns about musky fishing and FFS is of relatively low concern in general, relative to other species anyways. I don't find it enjoyable to use and I'm not sure sniping will ever make up a large percentage of musky fisherman for that reason (judging by the comments here many feel the same). But why shouldn't a musky guide use it as a tool? A guide is often hired for the simple task of catching his client (typically novice) a musky. I see it incredibly beneficial if said guide could double (or more) their catch rate such that they can directly teach anglers proper handling and release technique, which is absolutely vital.
@@sethdevos2061 Just back from some wood gathering .. so, absolutely on responding; important topics ... btw, one thing folks could never argue about (at least I hope) - is getting their kids on some fish ... definitely no black/white to the topic of technology. One thing I've discussed with others too is possibly - it could be the most effective tool for fisheries people to track fish populations with more accuracy. I honestly don't judge anyone (with the exception of those knowingly using any tool to target fish most likely to die; or that just generally overharvest), and appreciate and encourage all opinions - even those that think I suck and looking for a place to call me an arse. And on that note, I'm absolutely certain there are quite a few people - thinking or saying Pete should shut up already about in-boat bump boards. I can appreciate and respect that too (as with the other topic, I have many friends that use bump boards and we are still able to get along) ... however, I don't see myself shutting up about it completely. (Partially selfishly because in most places muskie fishing is tougher and I like seeing and catching them.). Like time out of water for photos, in-boat measure is time out of water with significant chance of fish fighting it - and/or being lost control of to bounce all around. I have seen and heard way too much of it actually happen. It really isn't arguable in this case that it's better to measure in boat - as opposed to in-water or just an estimate. While I've been told the ship has sailed, or I can't do that, or my clients want it - I know for a fact that - that is not true ... simply because I fished and lived through approximately 15 years of muskie fishing where there was basically zero in boat measuring; if measuring was done it was in the water. Appreciate you chiming in and that you are unafraid to offer honest thoughts!
Banning FFS isn’t the answer. Education on fish handling, changing limits, slots and expanding catch and release only seasons would go further to protect fisheries. Also, ignoring the spearing issue is avoiding the other elephant in the room.
I am generally not a fan of banning anything. Do like the potential to offer some places where no tech allowed- for those who want to experience it and to be able to see an obvious effects that may show
Spearing is obviously bad anywhere it occurs
Forward facing sonar doesn't make the fish bite. Yes it helps you find fish and put your bait in front of them, but after using it for years, it teaches you the majority of the time the fish don't bite. If they want to make forward sonar forbidden in tournaments, great. Maybe wisconsin should get their shit together and stock some muskies. You have to realize between guides, tournaments, tourists, etc, theirs more pressure than the lakes can handle prior to forward facing sonar.
Agreed. I do believe more stocking of popular species is quite simply common sense if the same amount/expansion of participation is to continue. It's not all any one factor but cumulative effects. All tech getting better was part of too; FFS gets the most attn simply because a huge jump in the effectiveness of precise fish location at distance
I think what the Northwoods really needs is some spotted fish Pete, lots and lots of spotted musky, can u imagine? 20 years from now reeling in a giant Minnesota fish out of lake tom or trout lake? Lol
Oh I don't argue with that at all ... Leech or Great Lakes strain yes