One thing I'll give it is it definitely feels like a prequel to Villeneuve's Dune in terms of visuals and tone, even if it isn't pulled of as masterfully it's still engaging.
My biggest concern is, that this will be another Dune-adaption that leaves out the importance of the melange for safe space travel. If the prescience-inducing effects of the spice melange are yet unknown, why is control of Arrakis already so damn important? If you only take into account what is mentioned in Denis' movies, one can get the impression, Dune is about an interstellar feudal society of drug addicts, fighting for the prerogative to harvest their favourite dope from a desert planet. And everybody is secretly influenced by the BG, who are also using spice. If you limit Dune to this, that would be a rather trivial story. Hence - we need the guild and we need CHOAM to understand what is really fueling the struggle for control of Arrakis.
I knew they weren't gonna go by Frank's version of Butlerian. But this can still be saved by saying that it's humans rebeled against the people in control of the machines, and those people used machines to push back rebellion during the war, and doesn't necessarily means evil AI doing it. I know that's a long shot. But since they haven't gone too deep in it. They can still back track it, lol
Yes I actually agree, it can be portrayed in that way. Maybe they'll talk about the Butlerian Jihad later on in the series, that's wishful thinking on my part too but we'll see.
That's my head canon as well with a small difference. The oligarchs use sophisticated AI to oppress humanity. Eventually the rest of humanity rises up. The oligarchs slowly begin to lose the war and out of desperation develop AI with greater freedom and creativity. Eventually the AI goes full skynet in a bid for self preservation leading to the Terminator esque war we saw on the show. Either way we get the best of both worlds and a more dynamic war. Tech and combat evolves so rapidly that in any long lasting, large scale war the way it began would look unrecognizable to the way it ends.
So far the show looks like a direct sequel to the "Great Schools of Dune" book trilogy. The flashbacks were pretty much lifted from those books. At the end of, "Navigators of Dune" (the last book in the trilogy chronologically) Javicco was a child. Also, Valya and Tula were convinced they killed Vorian Atreides, but he escaped. It'd be cool if he shows up here. Desmond Hart's powers were more reminiscent of the Sorceresses of Rossak. They had true telekinetic powers and could fry Cymek brains. It'd be interesting if there was a connection. After transmuting a poisoning attempt by their leader Ticia Cenva, Raquella was the first ever to access "Other Memory". She then subjugated them, forming the first iteration of the sisterhood. However, only those with origins from Rossak ever possessed true telekinetic powers.
1:00 - Tbf to Lynch's Dune, there IS a cut of the movie that delves into the history a bit. That cut is almost 4 hours so not many people at the time were willing to watch a movie that long.
What threw me was how the events in the show are 116 years after the uprising.. I thought it odd there were such complex societal structures so soon after ending their own enslavement. It would make more sense if the machines were simply the people who ran things and did all the thinking.
In my mind the Butlerian Jihad began with human oligarchs ruling humanity with thinking machines but as the war went on the oligarchs unshackled their AI and eventually the AI went full skynet on humanity in a bid for self preservation.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy all the different sci-fi interpretations of AI taking over. Like you say there could be a way it works in the Dune universe, but I think the original concept is quite fresh and original, although it might not be as epic and cool looking in a 5 minute montage. I think there's room for a whole series on the Butlerian Jihad alone.
Well it definitely shows an awareness for the entire series of books, which is a good sign yeah. I just wonder what they're going to do with that awareness.
Something else I don't think you mentioned that seemed wrong to me was the introduction of the Voice as something Valya was "experimenting with" in her own words. I guess that was the boardroom decision that they had to fit a major feature of the Bene Geserit int a six episode series, so they couldn't have it develop slowly.
I could have gone on and on about what I thought was wrong or didn't like, but I'd be labelled a hater and all sorts. I even tried not to single out performances that I didn't like but trust me, the poor acting, poor take choices, perhaps even rushed shooting of some of those scenes are all telling and aren't hard to spot, I just didn't want to be cruel haha.
Haha, I guess I've just been spoiled by other TV and movies costumes. I'm not saying they were all bad though. For example the designs on some of the clothing doesn't feel as though it has an identity to me, like the detailing is there, but it isn't insignia, it's just detailing that I can't work out the meaning of. It's hard to describe.
I think they were trying too hard to achieve the look of the Villeneuve movies, but didn’t quite hit the mark, so it just felt a bit cheap to me. Ynez’ dress was well-done, though 🤷🏻♂️
I always love to hear your perspective.. it sounds like you're giving it a 5/10 right now? I have similar issues with music choice, etc. but I am intrigued just enough to keep watching and hope that it gets better from here.
Nice Analysis! I haven't read Brian Herbert's books after giving up with a library loan after 50 pages. If I remember correctly from Dune, it took a while for space travel to become efficient without thinking machines after Butler's Jihad, and the Navigator's had to experiment before the art of spice consumption to guide the Ixian Heighliner's was optimised. Hence I'd have expected that this might still be the case so soon after thinking machines were banned, but it seems that the risk of colliding into objects in space is similar to Maud'Dibs time. It would have been an interesting if this was part of the show but I guess they don't want to overcomplicate an already complex plot too much. I was very happy to have the Arafel reference, I'm a bit worried Desmond Hart is a ghola because I'd like a proper Tleilaxu introduction in Messiah without a discount Duncan. I'd rather he had his own agenda rather than be a puppet of the Ixians or Tleilaxu.
Without Hans Zimmer's musical palette, it really doesn't compare, does it? Also agree on some of the performances. The child actor who played Pruitt was great, yet some of the actors in their 20s and 30s seem to have been chosen for their looks rather than their acting chops, and I'm never a fan of that. Anyway, on the whole, I agree with your review as a fair assessment. Could go either way at this point.
Yeah I dont even blame the composer because I think he's only describing through notes on what he's seeing/feeling on screen through the performances and visuals. And it clearly shows he doesn't feel that much, or there isn't much to musically say about it.
Desmond definitely has to be of Ixian design. Perhaps a recent development of their Facedancer technology. I think he may also be a leftover of sorts from the Machine AIs. Perhaps using microtech to infect people he is near and he can activate that tech at various times. The reason I think he’s an AI machine is because when RM Raquella is dying at the beginning of the episode, she sees (and hears) two pulsing blue eyes in her death vision. Then, when Pruet Richese has his little AI toy, it pulses its two, blue eyes , too. That cannot be coincidence.
I only read the first 3 books when I was a teenager, and aside from the Sandworms, the other coolest things were the Ornithopters, which David Lynch put NO effort into. The Sci-Fi Channel's mini-series did a marginally better job on them, but Villeneuve _finally_ got 'em right. But NONE of those adaptations explained WHY the spice melange is "the most important substance in the Universe". They just TELL us that it is. Nothing about the Butlerian Jihad and/or the complete ban on thinking machines. So glad that oversight has been covered by this new series.
I think they didn't want to call it the Butlerian Jihad because they wanted to avoid using the word "jihad", just as they did in Dune Part 2. Overall I liked it but it felt a bit rushed, especially the opening scenes. It was exposition-heavy, and a lot of telling instead of showing. I understand they wanted to do it for pacing, but if they could've at least demonstrated in flashbacks why the main character was so close to the Reverend Mother who dies early on, other than to say they had similar opinions on where the Sisterhood should go.
I agree with you about the avoidance of the word. It wasn't in the films, why use it in the series. They got a free pass there because of that. Would have gained a lot of respect from me if they were bold and went for it.
I have mixed feelings about It. it had its ups and downs. Some scenes were really well done, while others felt off. The acting was also inconsistent, some actors delivered great performances, but others fell flat. For some reason, it didn’t really feel like Dune to me, which is disappointing. Let’s wait and see the rest of the season..
i thought it was fine. the bar scene missed for me. i thought chronologically that the Zensunni Wanderers had already made it to Arrakis as they talk about Fremen but Harmonthep is still around but whatevs. i always preferred Frank Herbet's take on the Butlerian Jihad and i don't really care for Brian Herbert's books and i am biased. but hearing them refer to Tiran Arafel was really cool. my expectations for the show have always been very low, i just want it to be fun and enjoyable.
Yeah I'm along for the ride because it is Dune. Some nice surprises so far, didn't have much expectation going in either. So I look forward to seeing what else they develop.
im betting it'll be tula that has the ability to lie and teach others to lie in a way the sisterhood training cannot detect. tula is looking for a way to depose valya. sisterhood being banished from salusa by javicco might suffice. dorotea faction of sisters might have a few heretics among them one of which might be training male (sons) acolytes in their ways. and desmond hart might be a miles teg type character trying to thwart valya on behalf of dorotea-tula factions alliance... hart is not a ghola. he could be a face dancer with ixian tech (nanobots) trying to sabotage valya or family richese. seems like kesha should have (prana bindu) enough metabolic control to fight off whatever hart may be using though. iesha a full reverend mother.
I haven’t read the books so bare with me here but the idea that the benne gesserit both operate/look the same as they do 10,000 years later from when the show takes place feels extremely stupid & nonsensical. You’re telling me no one has caught on to how the benne gesserit operate for 10,000 years? Lol
Relying on AI made us dumb, haha. I just found your comment amusing. It's one to think about actually. I would say they prove useful and are cunning so they get away with a lot. Their secretive protective nature should be more apparent. A mystery in the way they carry themselves. Makes me think of the scene from The Fifth Element with the veiled blue singer when she arrives. I wanted the sisters to feel more mysterious and powerful around others. So far that hasn't really been captured.
@ oh yea that’s a perfect reference, the fifth element and the opera singer - the chimey music when they first introduce her character is excellent and has so much intrigue/mystery like you say. And I get the dune universe talks a lot about human stagnation etc but 10,000 years is ANCIENT. Like I know this is science fiction/a different universe but it takes the realism and immersion out of the show if there’s only such little incremental change over the span of 10k years. I mean it’s certainly possible it just feels extremely hard to believe
You should read the frank Herbert dunes. In the real world people wear garb and symbols dating back to their exception including outfits similar to that which their order wore thousands of years ago
@@SpiceAddicti0n yeah, now you’ll get people defending the very little change in looks but when you try to argue and say well, Arabic should still be used by the Fremen because they have space witches who can remember every language, they’ll all of a sudden say sorry, that language existing at this time is unrealistic. So which one is it? They can’t have it both ways haha.
I'm fine with the show not being an exact retelling of the events. Painting the world of Frank Herbert in broad strokes is fine with me if it increases casual fan interest in the world of Dune - and encourages them to read the books by extension.
My main issue is simply the introduction to the show. I felt like the first half should have taken an hour and spent more time showing instead of telling
If men made thinking machines to control other men, it's not such a big stretch of the imagination to assume they'd make thinking machines to fight/enforce for them too. I don't think the Jihad in the prequel novels would be identical to Frank's concept, but I don't think it's that far off either. If I recall correctly, Brian and Frank were discussing on writing The Butlerian Jihad together, I can't confirm this though.
I don't think it's mentioned in the original series ... Do we know when the first gholas were made? Not when they were about to recover the memories, but just the first created. Wondering if that guy who was believed dead could be one, but i feel it's way too early in the timeline
In lore, which the show is based off brian herbert, and the butlarian jihad is easily described as war against machines, even in the books. And in lore its described a rebellion happened where a fascist dictatorship took over and they eventually moved their minds into robots to remain immortal
The only correction I would point out in the video, R.ålí, is about the spice as it has already been discovered and is mentioned in the conversation between the emperor and Baron de Richese
That conversation between the Emperor and House Richese happened years after the first Mother Superior's death so I'm guessing spice hadn't been discovered yet, otherwise Mother Superior Raquella would have called it spice.
Overall I liked the first episode, but it didn't grab me (I prefer to see more before making a judgment). But I have to mention a thing that rub me the wrong way (it's probably a nitpick, but maybe I'm not alone in this). I've always understand the "Voice" as a highly advance version of hypnosis, and like hypnosis, having some limitations (for example, you can't make anybody to seriously hurt themselves, that's why Lady Jessica, both in book and in the movies, makes the Harkonnen soldier give her his knife, instead of telling him to use it against himself). So watching Valya Harkonnen using the Voice to make another sister [redacted] herself at the beginning (see? I'm keeping it clean, UA-cam!), it was very jarring, to the point that I kept thinking about that the rest of the episode... I dunno, am I alone in this?
You're not alone in this. This voice is quite different to the actual voice, but truly conveying these things in a rushed, limited TV series just isn't going to happen. The Dune story needs time to breathe in a series.
@@secretsofdune Ok, that being a different type of Voice technique makes more sense. I don't know a lot about Brian Herbert's Dune, so thank you for the explanation. Well, let's see how things evolve (but I'm worried, only 6 episodes, I don't think it does any justice to any complex story).
Slap some weird, strange sci-fi music over it and it could have radically altered that scene for me in a good way. I have a thing for sci-fi bars/clubs and music. I always listen out for their interpretations in film and TV. Some get it so right (John Williams for Star Wars, Vangelis for Blade Runner and more). The music in the Dune club was the most boring, lazy interpretation.
@@secretsofdune Frank Hebert kind of laid the groundwork for something like this when he introduced a drug called semuta; which was always used while listening to music to enhance the experience. I always played music when I was high on DOB (what we called street mescaline, but which wasn't mescaline) when I was younger. Because of this experience, you can't convince me that Frank didn't do this in real life with peyote or acid. Given that Dune has an ancient/future aesthetic, I imagine a better setting would have been a large open, somewhat dark space that's like a cross between a lounge and an opium den and a hookah bar with live trippy music played on acoustic instruments. There'd be Lots of people sitting on pillows and enough room for people to slow dance. The drug of choice would be semuta, of course.
I'm glad they managed to sort the production out to get a short series completed. I am very curious though about the previous plans. It looked VERY different to what we're seeing now.
1. I’m not a super _Dune_ fan, having only read of few of the books, and none of the non-Frank H. books, but I’ve seen the various film and TV adaptions a million times… in that light, I felt the show is sorely missing the gravitas of the Villeneuve films, and though I need to see where the story goes, I think I’d have been much more interested in a story about the Buterlian Jihad itself, and the aftermath, than whatever they have planned here… the lack of gravitas extends to the visuals as well, the score, even the acting. just all a bit disappointing. 2. regarding the lack of the Middle Eastern elements, I think that situation is a lose-lose… include it, and it’s “appropriation,” or leave it out and it’s “erasure” 🤷🏻♂️ 3. does Herbert or anyone else ever explain why the timeframe of the novels is set so far after the Butlerian Jihad? 10,000 years is a _looong_ time, and that the technology and customs and power structures all remain generally the same for all that time seems rather unrealistic 🤔
@@Sam_T2000 you’re just a much a fan of Dune as any of us as long as you enjoy the story and ideas 🙂 I really do hear what you are saying about the Middle Eastern stuff. I just feel like to ignore Frank Herbert’s legacy and his love of Middle Eastern history and culture is more about a celebration of those cultures, not appropriation. I think the films aesthetics without the Arabic is technically an even worse form of appropriation because it’s using it as background dressing while discarding the culture itself. If they addressed it head on I think it would have been seen to not be appropriation ultimately, but I guess we’ll never know. Agree with you about the show, I’m still going to see how the next five episodes play out before I give a final verdict. I’ll judge it all based on the entire season.
I thought it was just a statue! Other thoughts: I agree with you. I think the best thing they did was go beyond Brian's appalling writing / story with that 30 year jomp.
I thought the 1st episode was really good, Really wanna know what power Desmond has and where it came from coz Ive never known mental powers like this in the Duniverse. Cheers Rali Bro.💯👊🏽 #Longlivethefighters ⚔✊🏾⚔
He's probably the most interesting character in the story and what's funny is, he's a complete mystery because he isn't in any of the books haha! So your guess is as good as mine as to who he is!
@secretsofdune I like the Ixian theory but how did he escape Shai-Hulud?? Unless it was a doctored hologram the Emperor was viewing. But I agree some acting was below par and others were a bit too much. Had an eye roll at the club scene, felt more like Matrix than Dune. Still enjoyed it tho. Cheers Rali bro 💯👊🏽
I wasn't impressed. So much more style than substance in this episode. You could tell that there was really cool concept art done before filming, handed over directly to the set team to build. But the designs were just implausible eye candy. Other than the few shots of the dorm, no one would build or use such stylized, silly spaces. It was one "wouldn't this be a cool shot?" after the other. Acting was okay, nothing particularly great. Overall it felt deliberate, heavy, and lifeless.
The lookbook they had for the show when it was called The Sisterhood seemed to look a lot more interesting. The Sisterhood school looked like Hogwarts for Bene Gesserits and I don't know I kinda liked that idea, with two statues of Valya and Tula. Lots of things changed.
I think the new movies are terrible and nothing like dune. And its attracted an audience that calls themselves dune fans but are too stupid for dune. The show seems alright, (though not based on franks work) with only 6 episodes it is jammed packed for better or worse. Some of the casting reminds me of the cw or wb tv networks. And stay out of space bars.
I was thinking that yeah, but it was kind of distracting to me in a few shots and you couldn’t see that well through the blur. It was almost like a dream sequence rather than a current event. Only a small issue though.
My problem is the actors Voice of the Bene Gesserit there no power Authority unlike from Lynch and D.V Dunes films . They need Elocution lessons to project power . If don’t get what saying suggest re watching and Listen to Sian Philips, Rebecca Ferguson and Charlotte Rampling. Over all I have Lost faith coz of D.V Dune 2 ,Dune 1(D.V) I can just about forgive as the Visual was Great. Dune 2 ending Re writing the book Not coz not work on screen but DV ego etc. as for The series I thought HBO was cutting edge to be more risk taken in there shows . Goes show the Pen is Truly Mightier than the Sword as Western society it seems Still Afraid of uttering Words like Jihad etc.
@ Good point. The scene didn’t show them experiencibg psychedelia either. Drug taking of course belongs in Dune, whether it’s Yueh’s pills or the Spice Melange, whatever that was in that scene was the cheap stuff, lacked imagination, was only there to make them seem like “cool kids” and edgy and I wasn’t convinced that’s all. The inhaler thing at the club was a better idea. Frank based it on mushrooms, I would have preferred seeing something based on that.
10,000 years difference and apparently aesthetics, fashion, technology, weapons, politics, religion, everything is the same. No change. 10,000 years of stagnation. Yeah okay. I think its more likely a lack of vision, originality, and imagination. Awful show and not cannon.
Yeah, but since the total ban of thinking machines, there can be no real technologial development. They are kind of stuck with what they have. Thousands of years of letting machines do the thinking led to a withering and deterioration of human skills like creativity and imagination. I think the average human in the Duniverse is too dumb to form a political opinion, hence no democracy, but a fallback into feudalism. Much like in medieval, pre-enlightenment europe.
Set more than 10, 000 years apart from Villeneuve's Dune and it looks exactly the same. tech-wise, culturally. Nothing has changed in 10,000 years for an interstellar human race? The art direction was already uninspired and the depiction of the thinking machines confirms how dumbed down this show's ideas and execution are.
There's an argument that stagnation is the cause for the lack of much difference and i can understand that argument as it's a major theme of the Dune books. Still, I wish we had perhaps some more art deco vibes in the show.
@@secretsofdune I was under the impression that it was the discovery, use, and control of spice that created and maintained the stagnation. Which would work here if spice is just beginning to be a prime factor and this is where the progress in tech stops.
One thing I'll give it is it definitely feels like a prequel to Villeneuve's Dune in terms of visuals and tone, even if it isn't pulled of as masterfully it's still engaging.
Right, well we're talking about it so that's a good thing haha.
My biggest concern is, that this will be another Dune-adaption that leaves out the importance of the melange for safe space travel. If the prescience-inducing effects of the spice melange are yet unknown, why is control of Arrakis already so damn important? If you only take into account what is mentioned in Denis' movies, one can get the impression, Dune is about an interstellar feudal society of drug addicts, fighting for the prerogative to harvest their favourite dope from a desert planet. And everybody is secretly influenced by the BG, who are also using spice. If you limit Dune to this, that would be a rather trivial story.
Hence - we need the guild and we need CHOAM to understand what is really fueling the struggle for control of Arrakis.
I knew they weren't gonna go by Frank's version of Butlerian. But this can still be saved by saying that it's humans rebeled against the people in control of the machines, and those people used machines to push back rebellion during the war, and doesn't necessarily means evil AI doing it.
I know that's a long shot. But since they haven't gone too deep in it. They can still back track it, lol
Yes I actually agree, it can be portrayed in that way. Maybe they'll talk about the Butlerian Jihad later on in the series, that's wishful thinking on my part too but we'll see.
That's my head canon as well with a small difference.
The oligarchs use sophisticated AI to oppress humanity. Eventually the rest of humanity rises up. The oligarchs slowly begin to lose the war and out of desperation develop AI with greater freedom and creativity. Eventually the AI goes full skynet in a bid for self preservation leading to the Terminator esque war we saw on the show.
Either way we get the best of both worlds and a more dynamic war. Tech and combat evolves so rapidly that in any long lasting, large scale war the way it began would look unrecognizable to the way it ends.
How I saw it, when the books start, the thinking machines turned on the humans who were once in control
The depiction of the Butlerian Jihad doesn't bother me that much. It was just a glimpse. I think that fighting would have to be at least part of it.
Yeah it was quite short so it didn’t matter that much but it’s not how many imagined it to be.
So far the show looks like a direct sequel to the "Great Schools of Dune" book trilogy. The flashbacks were pretty much lifted from those books. At the end of, "Navigators of Dune" (the last book in the trilogy chronologically) Javicco was a child. Also, Valya and Tula were convinced they killed Vorian Atreides, but he escaped. It'd be cool if he shows up here.
Desmond Hart's powers were more reminiscent of the Sorceresses of Rossak. They had true telekinetic powers and could fry Cymek brains. It'd be interesting if there was a connection. After transmuting a poisoning attempt by their leader Ticia Cenva, Raquella was the first ever to access "Other Memory". She then subjugated them, forming the first iteration of the sisterhood. However, only those with origins from Rossak ever possessed true telekinetic powers.
1:00 - Tbf to Lynch's Dune, there IS a cut of the movie that delves into the history a bit. That cut is almost 4 hours so not many people at the time were willing to watch a movie that long.
It was done very last minute to a low budget and it shows when you watch it. Those who have not seen it are not missing out on anything.
What threw me was how the events in the show are 116 years after the uprising.. I thought it odd there were such complex societal structures so soon after ending their own enslavement. It would make more sense if the machines were simply the people who ran things and did all the thinking.
It is partially based off of the brian herbert sisterhood novel so i didn't expect to to use anything other than brians take on butlarian jihad.
In my mind the Butlerian Jihad began with human oligarchs ruling humanity with thinking machines but as the war went on the oligarchs unshackled their AI and eventually the AI went full skynet on humanity in a bid for self preservation.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy all the different sci-fi interpretations of AI taking over. Like you say there could be a way it works in the Dune universe, but I think the original concept is quite fresh and original, although it might not be as epic and cool looking in a 5 minute montage. I think there's room for a whole series on the Butlerian Jihad alone.
Just the fact that they had arafel in there gives me great hopes
Well it definitely shows an awareness for the entire series of books, which is a good sign yeah. I just wonder what they're going to do with that awareness.
07:16 Bene Geserit used his power to make Gom Jabar test.
'Should we go the Frank route, which will only become more relevant as AI progresses and we rely more and more on it?'
'Naah let's go the pew-pew way'
Rather than Ixian, when I saw what Desmond Hart was doing, I thought of Bene Tleilax and a biological weapon.
It's possible.
Something else I don't think you mentioned that seemed wrong to me was the introduction of the Voice as something Valya was "experimenting with" in her own words. I guess that was the boardroom decision that they had to fit a major feature of the Bene Geserit int a six episode series, so they couldn't have it develop slowly.
I could have gone on and on about what I thought was wrong or didn't like, but I'd be labelled a hater and all sorts. I even tried not to single out performances that I didn't like but trust me, the poor acting, poor take choices, perhaps even rushed shooting of some of those scenes are all telling and aren't hard to spot, I just didn't want to be cruel haha.
Nah bro you bugging 😂 the settings and costumes were sick
Haha, I guess I've just been spoiled by other TV and movies costumes. I'm not saying they were all bad though. For example the designs on some of the clothing doesn't feel as though it has an identity to me, like the detailing is there, but it isn't insignia, it's just detailing that I can't work out the meaning of. It's hard to describe.
Facts the Princesses' gown was everything 😆
It was hunger games cheap, a Gaga video
I think they were trying too hard to achieve the look of the Villeneuve movies, but didn’t quite hit the mark, so it just felt a bit cheap to me.
Ynez’ dress was well-done, though 🤷🏻♂️
I always love to hear your perspective.. it sounds like you're giving it a 5/10 right now? I have similar issues with music choice, etc. but I am intrigued just enough to keep watching and hope that it gets better from here.
Thanks. I mean it was watchable. Decent introduction into the Dune world for first time users. Maybe a 6.5 out of 10.
Nice Analysis! I haven't read Brian Herbert's books after giving up with a library loan after 50 pages. If I remember correctly from Dune, it took a while for space travel to become efficient without thinking machines after Butler's Jihad, and the Navigator's had to experiment before the art of spice consumption to guide the Ixian Heighliner's was optimised. Hence I'd have expected that this might still be the case so soon after thinking machines were banned, but it seems that the risk of colliding into objects in space is similar to Maud'Dibs time. It would have been an interesting if this was part of the show but I guess they don't want to overcomplicate an already complex plot too much. I was very happy to have the Arafel reference, I'm a bit worried Desmond Hart is a ghola because I'd like a proper Tleilaxu introduction in Messiah without a discount Duncan. I'd rather he had his own agenda rather than be a puppet of the Ixians or Tleilaxu.
Agreed about the ghola. This was going to be the subject of one of my next videos.
Without Hans Zimmer's musical palette, it really doesn't compare, does it? Also agree on some of the performances. The child actor who played Pruitt was great, yet some of the actors in their 20s and 30s seem to have been chosen for their looks rather than their acting chops, and I'm never a fan of that. Anyway, on the whole, I agree with your review as a fair assessment. Could go either way at this point.
Yeah I dont even blame the composer because I think he's only describing through notes on what he's seeing/feeling on screen through the performances and visuals. And it clearly shows he doesn't feel that much, or there isn't much to musically say about it.
Desmond definitely has to be of Ixian design. Perhaps a recent development of their Facedancer technology. I think he may also be a leftover of sorts from the Machine AIs. Perhaps using microtech to infect people he is near and he can activate that tech at various times. The reason I think he’s an AI machine is because when RM Raquella is dying at the beginning of the episode, she sees (and hears) two pulsing blue eyes in her death vision. Then, when Pruet Richese has his little AI toy, it pulses its two, blue eyes , too. That cannot be coincidence.
Face dancers are tleilaxu. But I agree, I’m getting some kind of face dancer vibe.
I only read the first 3 books when I was a teenager, and aside from the Sandworms, the other coolest things were the Ornithopters, which David Lynch put NO effort into. The Sci-Fi Channel's mini-series did a marginally better job on them, but Villeneuve _finally_ got 'em right.
But NONE of those adaptations explained WHY the spice melange is "the most important substance in the Universe". They just TELL us that it is.
Nothing about the Butlerian Jihad and/or the complete ban on thinking machines. So glad that oversight has been covered by this new series.
I mostly like it with some issues. It has problems but I'm still interested.
Excellent breakdown and review i agree wholeheartedly!
Thanks I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I think they didn't want to call it the Butlerian Jihad because they wanted to avoid using the word "jihad", just as they did in Dune Part 2.
Overall I liked it but it felt a bit rushed, especially the opening scenes. It was exposition-heavy, and a lot of telling instead of showing. I understand they wanted to do it for pacing, but if they could've at least demonstrated in flashbacks why the main character was so close to the Reverend Mother who dies early on, other than to say they had similar opinions on where the Sisterhood should go.
I agree with you about the avoidance of the word. It wasn't in the films, why use it in the series. They got a free pass there because of that. Would have gained a lot of respect from me if they were bold and went for it.
In the show’s podcast from MAX one producer referred to the Desmond character as a Rasputin figure.
I have mixed feelings about It. it had its ups and downs. Some scenes were really well done, while others felt off. The acting was also inconsistent, some actors delivered great performances, but others fell flat. For some reason, it didn’t really feel like Dune to me, which is disappointing. Let’s wait and see the rest of the season..
i thought it was fine. the bar scene missed for me. i thought chronologically that the Zensunni Wanderers had already made it to Arrakis as they talk about Fremen but Harmonthep is still around but whatevs. i always preferred Frank Herbet's take on the Butlerian Jihad and i don't really care for Brian Herbert's books and i am biased. but hearing them refer to Tiran Arafel was really cool. my expectations for the show have always been very low, i just want it to be fun and enjoyable.
Yeah I'm along for the ride because it is Dune. Some nice surprises so far, didn't have much expectation going in either. So I look forward to seeing what else they develop.
The bar scene was a big mistake. Even the music was out of place. (Techno, really ???)
im betting it'll be tula that has the ability to lie and teach others to lie in a way the sisterhood training cannot detect. tula is looking for a way to depose valya. sisterhood being banished from salusa by javicco might suffice. dorotea faction of sisters might have a few heretics among them one of which might be training male (sons) acolytes in their ways. and desmond hart might be a miles teg type character trying to thwart valya on behalf of dorotea-tula factions alliance... hart is not a ghola. he could be a face dancer with ixian tech (nanobots) trying to sabotage valya or family richese. seems like kesha should have (prana bindu) enough metabolic control to fight off whatever hart may be using though. iesha a full reverend mother.
I haven’t read the books so bare with me here but the idea that the benne gesserit both operate/look the same as they do 10,000 years later from when the show takes place feels extremely stupid & nonsensical. You’re telling me no one has caught on to how the benne gesserit operate for 10,000 years? Lol
Relying on AI made us dumb, haha. I just found your comment amusing. It's one to think about actually. I would say they prove useful and are cunning so they get away with a lot. Their secretive protective nature should be more apparent. A mystery in the way they carry themselves. Makes me think of the scene from The Fifth Element with the veiled blue singer when she arrives. I wanted the sisters to feel more mysterious and powerful around others. So far that hasn't really been captured.
@ oh yea that’s a perfect reference, the fifth element and the opera singer - the chimey music when they first introduce her character is excellent and has so much intrigue/mystery like you say. And I get the dune universe talks a lot about human stagnation etc but 10,000 years is ANCIENT. Like I know this is science fiction/a different universe but it takes the realism and immersion out of the show if there’s only such little incremental change over the span of 10k years. I mean it’s certainly possible it just feels extremely hard to believe
You should read the frank Herbert dunes. In the real world people wear garb and symbols dating back to their exception including outfits similar to that which their order wore thousands of years ago
@@SpiceAddicti0n yeah, now you’ll get people defending the very little change in looks but when you try to argue and say well, Arabic should still be used by the Fremen because they have space witches who can remember every language, they’ll all of a sudden say sorry, that language existing at this time is unrealistic. So which one is it? They can’t have it both ways haha.
you cant expect this show to have the same level of costumes as Dune movies 😂
True
I'm fine with the show not being an exact retelling of the events. Painting the world of Frank Herbert in broad strokes is fine with me if it increases casual fan interest in the world of Dune - and encourages them to read the books by extension.
Yes whatever leads back to the books is fine with me too!
only 6 episodes with this kind of delay is pretty sad.
My main issue is simply the introduction to the show.
I felt like the first half should have taken an hour and spent more time showing instead of telling
There could have been a whole episode on the young cast alone, it's true. I hear they do make appearances again throughout the series though.
"What holds more truth, History or Prophecy?"
"The history the Atredies wrote is spun out of lies.. my truth lay in prophecy." -Valya
If men made thinking machines to control other men, it's not such a big stretch of the imagination to assume they'd make thinking machines to fight/enforce for them too. I don't think the Jihad in the prequel novels would be identical to Frank's concept, but I don't think it's that far off either. If I recall correctly, Brian and Frank were discussing on writing The Butlerian Jihad together, I can't confirm this though.
Long live the fighters!
Correction: spice has been discovered by the events of episode 1. Richese says "The Spice must flow"
I meant in Mother Raquella's time, that was before that scene.
I don't think it's mentioned in the original series ... Do we know when the first gholas were made? Not when they were about to recover the memories, but just the first created. Wondering if that guy who was believed dead could be one, but i feel it's way too early in the timeline
In lore, which the show is based off brian herbert, and the butlarian jihad is easily described as war against machines, even in the books. And in lore its described a rebellion happened where a fascist dictatorship took over and they eventually moved their minds into robots to remain immortal
The only correction I would point out in the video, R.ålí, is about the spice as it has already been discovered and is mentioned in the conversation between the emperor and Baron de Richese
That conversation between the Emperor and House Richese happened years after the first Mother Superior's death so I'm guessing spice hadn't been discovered yet, otherwise Mother Superior Raquella would have called it spice.
@@secretsofdune actually, it makes sense. My Mistake
No problem at all, it’s hard to keep up with all these fictional things sometimes.
Overall I liked the first episode, but it didn't grab me (I prefer to see more before making a judgment). But I have to mention a thing that rub me the wrong way (it's probably a nitpick, but maybe I'm not alone in this).
I've always understand the "Voice" as a highly advance version of hypnosis, and like hypnosis, having some limitations (for example, you can't make anybody to seriously hurt themselves, that's why Lady Jessica, both in book and in the movies, makes the Harkonnen soldier give her his knife, instead of telling him to use it against himself). So watching Valya Harkonnen using the Voice to make another sister [redacted] herself at the beginning (see? I'm keeping it clean, UA-cam!), it was very jarring, to the point that I kept thinking about that the rest of the episode... I dunno, am I alone in this?
You're not alone in this. This voice is quite different to the actual voice, but truly conveying these things in a rushed, limited TV series just isn't going to happen. The Dune story needs time to breathe in a series.
@@secretsofdune Ok, that being a different type of Voice technique makes more sense. I don't know a lot about Brian Herbert's Dune, so thank you for the explanation.
Well, let's see how things evolve (but I'm worried, only 6 episodes, I don't think it does any justice to any complex story).
The nightclub scene was way too real-world contemporary for Dune.
Slap some weird, strange sci-fi music over it and it could have radically altered that scene for me in a good way. I have a thing for sci-fi bars/clubs and music. I always listen out for their interpretations in film and TV. Some get it so right (John Williams for Star Wars, Vangelis for Blade Runner and more). The music in the Dune club was the most boring, lazy interpretation.
@@secretsofdune Frank Hebert kind of laid the groundwork for something like this when he introduced a drug called semuta; which was always used while listening to music to enhance the experience.
I always played music when I was high on DOB (what we called street mescaline, but which wasn't mescaline) when I was younger. Because of this experience, you can't convince me that Frank didn't do this in real life with peyote or acid.
Given that Dune has an ancient/future aesthetic, I imagine a better setting would have been a large open, somewhat dark space that's like a cross between a lounge and an opium den and a hookah bar with live trippy music played on acoustic instruments. There'd be Lots of people sitting on pillows and enough room for people to slow dance. The drug of choice would be semuta, of course.
I am liking it so far.
It was pretty good: I was afraid after all the behind the scenes problems.
I'm glad they managed to sort the production out to get a short series completed. I am very curious though about the previous plans. It looked VERY different to what we're seeing now.
@@secretsofdune you heard what the prior plans were? Is there a video on that?
1. I’m not a super _Dune_ fan, having only read of few of the books, and none of the non-Frank H. books, but I’ve seen the various film and TV adaptions a million times… in that light, I felt the show is sorely missing the gravitas of the Villeneuve films, and though I need to see where the story goes, I think I’d have been much more interested in a story about the Buterlian Jihad itself, and the aftermath, than whatever they have planned here… the lack of gravitas extends to the visuals as well, the score, even the acting. just all a bit disappointing.
2. regarding the lack of the Middle Eastern elements, I think that situation is a lose-lose… include it, and it’s “appropriation,” or leave it out and it’s “erasure” 🤷🏻♂️
3. does Herbert or anyone else ever explain why the timeframe of the novels is set so far after the Butlerian Jihad? 10,000 years is a _looong_ time, and that the technology and customs and power structures all remain generally the same for all that time seems rather unrealistic 🤔
@@Sam_T2000 you’re just a much a fan of Dune as any of us as long as you enjoy the story and ideas 🙂 I really do hear what you are saying about the Middle Eastern stuff. I just feel like to ignore Frank Herbert’s legacy and his love of Middle Eastern history and culture is more about a celebration of those cultures, not appropriation. I think the films aesthetics without the Arabic is technically an even worse form of appropriation because it’s using it as background dressing while discarding the culture itself. If they addressed it head on I think it would have been seen to not be appropriation ultimately, but I guess we’ll never know.
Agree with you about the show, I’m still going to see how the next five episodes play out before I give a final verdict. I’ll judge it all based on the entire season.
I thought it was just a statue! Other thoughts: I agree with you. I think the best thing they did was go beyond Brian's appalling writing / story with that 30 year jomp.
Thank you for watching it, so we don't have to!
May thy TV screen chip and shatter!
@@secretsofdune Fortunately I don't have a TV.
@@Knee-JerkReactor 😂
Hart is playing with his rings a lot.....is it where he keeps the nanobots?
I thought the 1st episode was really good, Really wanna know what power Desmond has and where it came from coz Ive never known mental powers like this in the Duniverse. Cheers Rali Bro.💯👊🏽
#Longlivethefighters ⚔✊🏾⚔
He's probably the most interesting character in the story and what's funny is, he's a complete mystery because he isn't in any of the books haha! So your guess is as good as mine as to who he is!
@secretsofdune I like the Ixian theory but how did he escape Shai-Hulud?? Unless it was a doctored hologram the Emperor was viewing. But I agree some acting was below par and others were a bit too much. Had an eye roll at the club scene, felt more like Matrix than Dune. Still enjoyed it tho. Cheers Rali bro 💯👊🏽
@@SK4M_Freal Maybe he didn't escape Shai Hulud? Maybe this is a ghola or an AI construction built from the remnants?
9:50 people smoked thousands of years ago and it remains today. Why would snorting be any different? Powder is powder
The difference is the advancement in tech and the knowledge developed about the body since then. Like I said, a lacking of imagination is what I felt.
I wasn't impressed. So much more style than substance in this episode. You could tell that there was really cool concept art done before filming, handed over directly to the set team to build. But the designs were just implausible eye candy. Other than the few shots of the dorm, no one would build or use such stylized, silly spaces. It was one "wouldn't this be a cool shot?" after the other. Acting was okay, nothing particularly great. Overall it felt deliberate, heavy, and lifeless.
The lookbook they had for the show when it was called The Sisterhood seemed to look a lot more interesting. The Sisterhood school looked like Hogwarts for Bene Gesserits and I don't know I kinda liked that idea, with two statues of Valya and Tula. Lots of things changed.
The best acting out of the first ep is indeed the child. Made me dislike pity and miss him all in one go.
show sucks, nobody is likeable, bene G are cringe and not mystical like the movies... and they are hideous... the show is woke!
I think the new movies are terrible and nothing like dune.
And its attracted an audience that calls themselves dune fans but are too stupid for dune.
The show seems alright, (though not based on franks work) with only 6 episodes it is jammed packed for better or worse. Some of the casting reminds me of the cw or wb tv networks. And stay out of space bars.
Dune with no arabic is not dune
Only if they’re not on the PLANET Dune. But it seems the series will show more Arrakis at some point.
the blurring may be due to anamorphic lenses...
I was thinking that yeah, but it was kind of distracting to me in a few shots and you couldn’t see that well through the blur. It was almost like a dream sequence rather than a current event. Only a small issue though.
My problem is the actors Voice of the Bene Gesserit there no power Authority unlike from Lynch and D.V Dunes films . They need Elocution lessons to project power . If don’t get what saying suggest re watching and Listen to Sian Philips, Rebecca Ferguson and Charlotte Rampling. Over all I have Lost faith coz of D.V Dune 2 ,Dune 1(D.V) I can just about forgive as the Visual was Great. Dune 2 ending Re writing the book Not coz not work on screen but DV ego etc. as for The series I thought HBO was cutting edge to be more risk taken in there shows . Goes show the Pen is Truly Mightier than the Sword as Western society it seems Still Afraid of uttering Words like Jihad etc.
Those drugs would be spice and if it doesn't belong in Dune then it's not Dune.
Color was white and if it was spice they would have made a point to focus on it and also make it sparkle like the dune movie.
@@secretsofdune Spice is still a psychedelic drug so drug taking does belong in Dune. Also worth looking into what Frank based spice on.
@ Good point. The scene didn’t show them experiencibg psychedelia either. Drug taking of course belongs in Dune, whether it’s Yueh’s pills or the Spice Melange, whatever that was in that scene was the cheap stuff, lacked imagination, was only there to make them seem like “cool kids” and edgy and I wasn’t convinced that’s all. The inhaler thing at the club was a better idea.
Frank based it on mushrooms, I would have preferred seeing something based on that.
Dune: folie à deux
😂 you're mean.
10,000 years difference and apparently aesthetics, fashion, technology, weapons, politics, religion, everything is the same. No change. 10,000 years of stagnation. Yeah okay. I think its more likely a lack of vision, originality, and imagination. Awful show and not cannon.
Yeah, but since the total ban of thinking machines, there can be no real technologial development. They are kind of stuck with what they have. Thousands of years of letting machines do the thinking led to a withering and deterioration of human skills like creativity and imagination. I think the average human in the Duniverse is too dumb to form a political opinion, hence no democracy, but a fallback into feudalism. Much like in medieval, pre-enlightenment europe.
Set more than 10, 000 years apart from Villeneuve's Dune and it looks exactly the same. tech-wise, culturally. Nothing has changed in 10,000 years for an interstellar human race?
The art direction was already uninspired and the depiction of the thinking machines confirms how dumbed down this show's ideas and execution are.
There's an argument that stagnation is the cause for the lack of much difference and i can understand that argument as it's a major theme of the Dune books. Still, I wish we had perhaps some more art deco vibes in the show.
that's my main gripe as well
@@secretsofdune I was under the impression that it was the discovery, use, and control of spice that created and maintained the stagnation. Which would work here if spice is just beginning to be a prime factor and this is where the progress in tech stops.
😴😴😴
Having a modern depiction of a series having none of the atmosphere of the franchise they're supposed to represent is so 2024.