In college, we performed the complete Satie Vexations. It took about 24 hours. Everyone who could play the piano decently signed up for at least 10 repetitions. I was supposed to play my 10 repetitions sometime around 1 a.m. Audience members came and went as they pleased. I doubt anybody stuck around for more than an hour. When I played, the only people present were the pianist who played before me and the pianist signed up to follow me. When I took over, the pianist who followed me (who was more competent) could see I was not comfortable (I was a string player, really), tapped me on the shoulder after about a minute, and volunteered to take my repetitions as well as his own. I was grateful, and I did him the courtesy of staying to hear him play.
"In order to play this piece 840 times, it would be advisable to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, with serious immobilities". That's what Satie wrote on the score of "Vexations". In 1963 John Cage took this joke literally and hired a battery of pianists to perform that many repetitions at a concert in NYC. It lasted over 18 hours. At the end someone in the audience shouted, "Encore!"
Feldman: Several years BC (before Covid) I went to a Frederick, MD Red Cross to donate platelets. It`s a two hour process through which you squeeze a foam ball to keep the artery open from which the blood is drawn. During that time donors typically watch a movie from the Red Cross library or you bring your own. Well, this particular time I thought I would bring my copy of Feldman`s 2nd String Quartet (on a Mode DVD) and at least listen to the first two hours of it for kicks. However, before I knew it (seemed like only a few minutes) I heard the platelet machine chimes ding and the phlebotomist told me, “Ok, sir, you are done.” I asked her in astonishment, “Really?? Are you serious?? Really??” Even while squeezing that foam ball every 10 seconds or so, I did not experience the passage of time itself. It was one of the most profound experiences of my entire life. Now I totally understand how people can put themselves into a trance-like state and time seems to stop or slow down.
Vexations has actually recently been recorded complete, and by one single pianist no less. The wonderful Igor Levit live-streamed his vexations marathon during the pandemic, to highlight artists' suffering of not being able to perform publicly. The live-stream is still available on YT, and the performance was reviewed by Alex Ross e.a.
I'm sure you've heard of the story (Apocryphal ?) of the man sitting in the balconey section in Carnegie Hall who, during an evening of "New Music" shouts out, " I confess "!
I played the 2nd Boulez Sonata once to a friend who has absolutely no clue about classical music, just out of curiosity what he might think about that. He said "sounds like a Tom and Jerry cartoon". I wonder what Boulez would think about that.
My mom was a legal secretary and could type 90-100 words per minute. The first time I heard the Boulez sonata, it reminded me of my mom's typing. Boulez made the piano sound like a typewriter.
David, many thanks for informing me about pianist Artur Schnabel's second symphony. I know him, of course, as a fine Beethoven interpreter but had no idea that he was also a composer - and, extraordinarily, that the symphony is docedaphonic. Almost unbelievable.
I've always been grateful for the fact that living in this modern age, I can listen to so much beautiful music; but you've made me realize that I should be just as grateful for all the music I'll never get to hear, and music I'll never need to hear because you suffered through it for us! Hahahaha
Funny story about the Feldman second: he toured with the Kronos Quartet with it and fell asleep at a performance. He was heard to remark, at the end, "they could have given us a pee break!"
This is a good reminder for me to do something I’ve intended to do for some time: review your “Tough Symphonists” series and give a few of those masochisterpieces a spin.
I know Petterson 9 pretty well! I think it's a wonderful piece! Maybe a touch too long, but I think it's a very engaging piece! But yes, it's a test... it really bombards you for 70 min straight.
The original recording (Comissiona/Göteborg SO) was 85 minutes long as well, which is fascinating as the work was written for them, and Pettersson says in the score it should be 65-70 minutes. At 85 minutes it is pretty dreary, but I don't think there's anything particularly masochistic about the 70 minute Lindberg or Francis recordings.
I own the Comissiona recording. It was released on 2 Lp:s in 1978. I belive that it is the best of the recordings made so far. Yes, it lasts 85 minutes but the experience is more true to the score. At the end of the symphony you feel owerwhelmed by emotions.
Tlhank you Dave. This had me laughing out loud and your masterly singing of some of these pieces will stay with me for quite a while. Needless to say I shall not be subjecting myself to the real thing.
The only one of these I've heard is Sorabji's "Opus Clavicembalisticum," in the five-CD boxed set by John Ogdon on Altarus. I remember thinking that it was a lot of soft passages that sounded like Debussy and a lot of loud ones that sounded like Liszt, and nothing in between. It's not surprising that John Cage led the first complete public performance of Satie's "Vexations," since to play the work once requires a minute and a half; to play it the stipulated 840 times requires a day and a half, and Cage famously recruited five pianists (including himself and David Tudor) to play it in relay. And my list of "masochisterpieces" would definitely include Cage's own "Variations IV," an electronic piece whose premiere lasted six hours. Everest recorded it but only issued bits of it, as much as would fit on two LP's, and the LP I had was called "Variations IV, Volume 2" and was prefaced with a five-minute spoken introductory lecture on how the work was created that I found considerably more listenable than the work itself.
Ok, I must be weird. I just gave the Petterson 9 another listen (CPO - Francis) and enjoyed it quite a lot. It does have a bit of "film score" moments to it that make it a bit relatable, even if the extended repetition of things doesn't quite achieve the same net result as the contemporary minimalists were building.
Ah! Yes! Pettersson is one of my favorites when I’m in “a mood”. Although, I sort of object to the choice of symphony 9 as it famously ends with a major key plagal cadence. Not peaceful, but tranquil (as Shostakovich 8 does) which is more than he typically gives you. Of course the “popular Petterssons” 6-8 are more emotionally giving and not as “punishing” but they could perhaps sting more. My vote for the most masochistic Pettersson symphony would have to be symphony 10. Not as long, but more ferociously jagged in my opinion. He sets out from the very beginning to pound you into the ground with that snare drum. Also somewhat more devoid of those little beautiful segments he tended to sprinkle in. I don’t know if I “enjoy” Pettersson, as you said. But when I want to sulk around he does exactly what I need and for that reason I love him.
@@bjornjagerlund3793 It's not a punishment, but it is morose. That little island of F#-Major string chorale-y stuff is one of my favorite moments in all of music.
I like difficult music, so I was naturally drawn to this video. I am shocked that I don't have recordings of any of these, though I am aware of some of them. This situation will have to be rectified. I look forward to the assault upon my ears.
Oh gosh. I just rewatched your Schumann symphony cycle talk. Now that gorgeous music and then thinking of listening to pettersson. Oh praise the lord! I am choosing the Schumann. Haha
The Congress Hotel in Tucson, a few years ago, hosted a performance of Vexations 840. A musician performed for an hour, then another musician took over. Mostly piano but other instruments and groups of instruments. Not cacophonous at all! Relaxing, really, hence not a masochisterpiece. To add an additional layer of Dada, John Dillinger was captured at the Congress Hotel in 1934.
The description of the Klusák piqued my interest, so I've just gone away to check it out and wow, I love it! The adagietto is weaved through so it seems like not such strict serialism perhaps? Anyway. Can anyone else recommend other similar pieces to me? The Rochberg Pachelbel immediately comes to my mind.
Clever title! Well David, I sampled a few on the list. I listened for as long as I could stand it before banging my head against the wall. If I had any masochism in my psychological makeup you’ve cured me!
Great tips! I do enjoy some occasional masochism, after all life truly is miserable and gruesome at times and it's great realising so. As you might have guessed, I am somewhat Germanic ... I've heard six of these in live performances, rather five as it concerns another piece by Sorabji I don't recall the title of. It was played by a pianist acquantance who tried to meticuilously play all the composed notes of the score. When the performance was done (it must have been over an hour an a half) he was left with severly bruised fingertips, even drawing some droplets of blood. Sorabji was a challenge for him he would not give up on, but he refused to play it ever again, and even I have lost any desire to experience it again. But hey, he suffered for his music and now it was our (the audience's) turn and I respect that. From your list I will have a listen of Gielen's quartet, don't care much of Petterson, Pfitzner or Klusák though based on your descriptions. Generaly speaking I mainly listen to contemporary and avantgarde music, just because I am curious. I don't expect everything to be marvelous or even 'good', but that's just the way it is. Only by listening I learn waht I appreciate (and why) an what I don't. In every period there was only a limited number of compositions that truly stand the test of time. Our own timeperiod is no different, the filter of time is just not there, so there's more to go through in order to find the gems.
This is one of your funniest videos, loved the story about the Schoenberg Wind Quintet. It makes sense that Cancrizans would show up at the end of the video, these pieces probably inspired him to wipe the slate clean like the Noah's Ark story.
Some day I hope you will mention Hindemith's youthful mutilation of the overture to the Flying Dutchman, literally titled "Overture to the Flying Dutchman as Sight-read by a Bad Spa Orchestra at 7 in the Morning by the Well"
To be fair, Opus Clavicembalisticum has not been recorded properly; both (complete) recordings to date suck. However, Eric Xi Xin Liang has been uploading individual movements for some time now, and it's amazing. You can check it out on youtube.
"Vexations" is best combined with a simultaneous performance of Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music" repeated as many times as required, and then immediately followed by John Cage's "ORGAN2/ASLSP". The Boulez sonata sounds like a piano got drunk, wandered into an M. C. Escher drawing, and promptly fell down a set of endless stairs. The Gielen string quartet, on the other hand, sounds like something Frank Zappa might have written for Ensemble Modern toward the end of his life, and it sounds like Zappa knew and was inspired by this piece. It has shades of "Food Gathering in Post-Industrial America, 1992". It really isn't _bad,_ it's more like it just doesn't know where it's going or when to stop, or ultimately how to end. If it had the more interesting bits compressed into 12 to 15 minutes, I might actually like it the way I like the Zappa composition.
I disagree with the Sorabji comments... I think he has a fascinating way of writing that, true, isn't for everyone. There's something I like about the wandering quality of it, though. Particularly his nocturnes and slower movements. But even I will admit that it took me a while to get used to it, but I now find the music very rewarding
The nocturnes have been the most difficult works of his to get into for me personally, yet they're the first pieces recommended to new Sorabji listeners. I devour his music for hours at a time but the nocturnes are something I rarely play, personally. Maybe that's why so many people try listening to his music and conclude that it's not for them.
I've heard the story of the Boulez dispute over Polini's performance of the 2nd Sonata and it is probably true in part. I'm quite fond of the 2nd Sonata. In fact I tend to prefer his works for the keyboard over everything else he wrote.
Oh, by the glory of all my ancestors! When my 9th graders ask me for some music in the classroom, they are up for a nasty surprise. I am already compiling a reproduction list with some of these pieces, and cannot wait for Monday. Thank you, sir!
I heard a talk given by Morton Feldman where he reported he had just sat through two performances of his 2nd String Quartet during the same week! You did it to yourself, Morty! Can't very well get up and walk out, can you?🤣
A friend of mine shudders every time he thinks about a performance he attended of Humphrey Searle's opera 'Hamlet' in which every single word of the Shakespeare's text was set to dissonant serial music.
The first piece that came to my mind was Luigi Nono's 'Como una ola de fuerza y luz". The soundscape might be interesting, but I haven't managed to get through it.
To me, Nono is the bottom of the barrel. All political posturing and no talent. I've got no patience for it. The LaSalle Quartet also recorded Nono's String Quartet "An Diotima", which is not as ugly as the Gielen quartet (which is ugly on purpose), but which is absolutely brutally boring. A mind-numbing 3/4 of an hour of pianissimo sound effects and general pauses of varying lengths. I was at an early performance in Cincinnati, and people were too bored to even boo. It was like listening to a lame lecture on dialectics in an auditorium with the microphone mercifully turned off.
@@marknewkirk4322 "Nono's String Quartet 'An Diotima'" I heard it once. It reminded me of Schönbergs String Trio op. 45 with it's pauses. Time that DG offers a LaSalle Quartet box.
Honorable Mention: Johann Nepomuk David's thorny Melancholia, op 53, for viola and strings. Quite a strange exercise in highly dissonant, atonal polyphony that will cause all but the least susceptible to emotional suggestion to desire hara-kiri. Actually, I sort of like it.
ANY publicity is good publicity, so I encourage anyone who's never heard the Pfitzner to check it out..especially the 1966 performance by Joseph Keilberth , with the wonderful soprano Agnes Giebel and the legendary Fritz Wunderlich in one of his last performances. Yeah, there's definitely some lofty "sludge" in the work (and the CD should obviously contain a warning label for sufferers of asthma), but anyone who appreciates late-romantic, tonal, excessive and opulent Germanic music will surely want to know it. LR
I enjoy Schoenberg at the best of times, and I thought you would have mentioned the String Trio as a gruesome exercise in pathology, but I have to agree the Wind Quintet is uniquely unlovable. I had to find a recording (from the Robert Craft edition) and put it on to remind me of what a tough nut it is to crack. Made better by the fact that it is dedicated to the composer's grandson - I wonder what he made of it - I can imagine his excitement...
Felix Greissle, Schoenberg's son-in-law from his first marriage, made an arrangement of Schoenberg's Wind Quintet, transforming it into a Sonata for Violin and Piano, and the piece is far more listenable (and in my opinion just plain better) in that form. It has been recorded absolutely splendidly by Ulf Wallin and Roland Pöntinen. I am an ardent Schoenberg fan, but I will freely admit that the Wind Quintet is one of his least successful or enjoyable pieces. But give the Violin Sonata a chance. It really is a nice surprise.
My first experience of how horrendous the strings of a symphony orchestra could sound was Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima. I'm sure that the composer wanted his listeners to feel bad and that piece certainly does the job. His St. Luke's Passion also fills the bill for oratorio masochists.
I remember when Sorabji was Some Sort of Thing. There seemed to be some sort of effort to push him on the public. Never could figure him out. I've never tried the Feldman 6 hour quartet, though I do like Feldman. Boulez, no way. And I rather like some of his stuff. Not that sonata. I gotta admit I find no pain in the Pettersson Ninth. At least not in LISTENING to it. And I like the Schoenberg wind quintet, crab canon and all. There are a few there I've never heard. I'll give them a try. I can always turn them off if they get too vicious.
Listen to Sorabji's Fantasia Ispanica, KSS.55 recorded by Jonathan Powell on Altarus, released in 2004. That album will either make you fall in love with his music, or conclude that it's simply not for you.
@@1-JBL I hear you. I've always been obsessed with the piano and piano virtuosity so that goes a long way in my appreciation of his work I suppose. I've shown the 2nd movement of that Fantasia Ispanica as a standalone piece to a few people who claimed to like not like Sorabji before (or modernism/contemporary/atonal/dissonant music at all), one of my friends described it as sounding like "exploring the inside of a giant haunted grandfather clock." Clearly not for everyone though. The Piano Sonata #1, KSS.20 is a more immediately accessible piece to ears that haven't adjusted to his totally alien idiom yet.
Hi Dave. Is John Cage’s Organ2/ASLSP aka As SLow aS Possible a valid masochisterpiece entry? I mean, in its 639 years long version I’m not even sure it can be considered as music, it’s just background noise. PS I tried the 17 min long recording version, but that doesn’t sound like music either.
i don't find it so bad, hearing the little variations over time pop up can be delightful, but it indeed requires a bit of endurance on the part of the listener, when they want a bit of an academic exercise with their listening.
Paraphrasing Mark Twain on the Book of Mormon ("Chloroform in print")--Chloroform in music. Great insomnia remedy. There's always the possibility that he intended it as such.
I know enjoying Sorabji is a tall order for many people, but I'm curious if you've ever heard Jonathan Powell's recording of the Fantasia Ispanica, KSS.55 on Altarus... Listening to that album repeatedly is what made me fall in love with Sorabji's music, and that's the piece I always refer people to as an introduction to his music, along with the Piano Sonata #1, KSS.20 recording by Hamelin, also on Altarus. Have you heard / do you enjoy either of these Sorabji recordings? I can't listen to any Madge or Ogdon recordings, they're played so horribly and that Michael Habermann album that everybody knows is highly dated at this point.
Right, well after spending some time to allow the piece to wash over me twice, it's not so harrowing an experience at all. However! This is because i made no efforts to discern the form and follow the recapitulation like Mr. Hurwitz worked so hard to. The realization that it was a retrograde inversion would be enough to make anyone crabby. That was the masochistic aspect! Anyway, as i listened, it raised questions about the relationship between composer and audience, and composer and performer. How much are we really expected to understand? How much are we as an audience actually not permitted to understand? Is all that dodecaphonic planning and preparation worth the effort for those infrequent sonic convergences that happen along the way? Do performers go into this as a labor of love? How do they approach giving a good performance? What do they have to hang their hat on? It's my understanding that though many composers of the 20th Century avant-garde didn't care if anyone enjoyed their music or even listened to it, Schoenberg was not of that ilk. He genuinely wanted to communicate something to his fellow man. The Wind Quintet didn't really speak to me, but Gurrelieder, Pierrot Lunaire, and a host of other things really do.
What is there not to like about Reger? I recall needing to listen to his piano concerto a few times before I really loved it, but it's been a favorite of mine for years now.
I'm in total agreement! I thought maybe his recent works would show signs of growth or advancement. Wrong! Still constantly noodling along with triads.
Such a cliche. Not inapplicable to much of his later output, but before he began churning out formulaic Philip Glass Inc. product, he actually penned some distinctive & high quality music with a few (admittedly too few) breathtaking and even moving passages. I can hardly imagine the closing Evening Song from Satyagraha or the Hymn to the Sun from Akhenaton leaving any sensitive listener emotionally unaffected.
Any piece that is more than an hour and a half long must either be background music at some point, or must make accomodations as to where the intermissions are etc.
I disagree. I listen to works which are multiple hours long with my undivided attention several times per week at the bare minimum. I know I'm not the only one.
Also, I reject the concept of "background music" entirely. If any music isn't worthy of receiving your undivided attention, regardless of it's length; what's the point of listening to it?
Feldman doesn't even try to keep your attention for all these hours, I attended a concert of for Philip Guston (almost 5h) and it was more like hypnosis, after a few hours your brain melts and you are in a sort of timeless limbo until the last 20 minutes, that for some reason sound like a coda and prepare you to the end. This is at least my perception
The only one I must have heard before is the Schoenberg windquintet. As a music masochist must still gets some pleasure and satisfaction out of it, I can only think of some early minimalistic repetitive music as by Philip Gass and some works by Stockhausen. that have that effect on me. Any one minute of it isn't pleasing, but the repetitive strokes one endures cause some kind of euphoria. But most works/composers that cause me to suffer listening to them i disregard swiftly There is quite a lot of physical torture i'd rather endure then having the, for example , complete Schoenberg string quartets at high volume forced upon me. So if ever the enemy catches me, no need for any bloody business to get secret information.. I can understand that there is some insistance to encourage people not to give up on "difficult" music they don't like initially, ("sooner or later you'll see the Light") but that very rarely made any change for me. Even if one only enjoys or is fascinated by 10 percent of all classical music , that's still a lot to listen to.
There's a difference between being tortured and being bored to tears, which I can understand as a reaction to the pieces you mention. But as tedious as lower tier Bach or Brahms can be, I don't understand how they can be regarded as torture. Treatments for insomnia, maybe.
Oh God, I listened to some Pfitzner recently. Or rather I listened to some samples of his chamber music on Presto. The first few notes always seem promising, but then it degenerates into slop. As for Schoenberg, I continue to believe that he only turned to dodecaphony in a desperate (and successful) attempt to seem important. He hid his mediocrity by evading requirements of melody, harmony and structure.
Well, I disagree about Schoenberg. He was a very great composer in many ways, but all of his music is cantankerous, even the tonal stuff, just as he was.
Schoenberg has many masochisterpieces for sure, so I'd nominate Moses und Aron. Dodecaphonic music with voices is even more unbearable and this late work of his is the perfect example of tortuous music. On the other hand, I disagree about the Pfitzner. It's a beautiful work from start to finish and it features some really inspired passages.
I'll see your Boulez second sonata and raise you his Structures (I and II). Unlistenable nonsense. And I like me some Boulez. But man, what horrid, horrid music.
I'm the same way. I like Sur incises, Notations (the orchestrated version), Repons, a few others. I doubt that any of it will stand the test of time. Repons is nice, but you practically have to have Colossus the Forbin Project on hand to perform it. Things like that are going to disappear. But the piano stuff is just awful, especially those STRUCTURES pieces.
@@1-JBL I think of Xenakis similarly- his solo piano works are utterly horrid, and then you have his orchestral works like Jonchaies which I absolutely adore.
In college, we performed the complete Satie Vexations. It took about 24 hours. Everyone who could play the piano decently signed up for at least 10 repetitions. I was supposed to play my 10 repetitions sometime around 1 a.m. Audience members came and went as they pleased. I doubt anybody stuck around for more than an hour. When I played, the only people present were the pianist who played before me and the pianist signed up to follow me. When I took over, the pianist who followed me (who was more competent) could see I was not comfortable (I was a string player, really), tapped me on the shoulder after about a minute, and volunteered to take my repetitions as well as his own. I was grateful, and I did him the courtesy of staying to hear him play.
I wish I could have been there. I’ve never heard “Vexations” performed, though I would like to, at least once.
I listened to it on UA-cam last night. Once was more than enough.
We did that as well! . Maybe it was the same college.
"In order to play this piece 840 times, it would be advisable to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, with serious immobilities". That's what Satie wrote on the score of "Vexations". In 1963 John Cage took this joke literally and hired a battery of pianists to perform that many repetitions at a concert in NYC. It lasted over 18 hours. At the end someone in the audience shouted, "Encore!"
Feldman: Several years BC (before Covid) I went to a Frederick, MD Red Cross to donate platelets. It`s a two hour process through which you squeeze a foam ball to keep the artery open from which the blood is drawn. During that time donors typically watch a movie from the Red Cross library or you bring your own. Well, this particular time I thought I would bring my copy of Feldman`s 2nd String Quartet (on a Mode DVD) and at least listen to the first two hours of it for kicks. However, before I knew it (seemed like only a few minutes) I heard the platelet machine chimes ding and the phlebotomist told me, “Ok, sir, you are done.” I asked her in astonishment, “Really?? Are you serious?? Really??” Even while squeezing that foam ball every 10 seconds or so, I did not experience the passage of time itself. It was one of the most profound experiences of my entire life. Now I totally understand how people can put themselves into a trance-like state and time seems to stop or slow down.
Vexations has actually recently been recorded complete, and by one single pianist no less. The wonderful Igor Levit live-streamed his vexations marathon during the pandemic, to highlight artists' suffering of not being able to perform publicly. The live-stream is still available on YT, and the performance was reviewed by Alex Ross e.a.
that's actually pretty cool, he found a legitimate role or purpose for the piece.
I love Satie. He was a musical surrealist.
I'm sure you've heard of the story (Apocryphal ?) of the man sitting in the balconey section in Carnegie Hall who, during an evening of "New Music" shouts out, " I confess "!
Also highly recommended: Stockhausen - Licht. Seven part giga opera. 29 or so hours of pure joy for yourself and the whole family. Enjoy! 😊
I played the 2nd Boulez Sonata once to a friend who has absolutely no clue about classical music, just out of curiosity what he might think about that. He said "sounds like a Tom and Jerry cartoon". I wonder what Boulez would think about that.
Your vocal and facial impressions of the Mahler variations and the Schoenberg are priceless!
My mom was a legal secretary and could type 90-100 words per minute. The first time I heard the Boulez sonata, it reminded me of my mom's typing. Boulez made the piano sound like a typewriter.
Some radio modern music may also scare the insects away from your house.
Reminds me of Truman Capote on Jack Kerouac (possibly apocryphal): "That's not writing, it's typing".
David, many thanks for informing me about pianist Artur Schnabel's second symphony. I know him, of course, as a fine Beethoven interpreter but had no idea that he was also a composer - and, extraordinarily, that the symphony is docedaphonic. Almost unbelievable.
I only have three of these in my record collection. I really need to step up my masochism game.
I've always been grateful for the fact that living in this modern age, I can listen to so much beautiful music; but you've made me realize that I should be just as grateful for all the music I'll never get to hear, and music I'll never need to hear because you suffered through it for us! Hahahaha
Funny story about the Feldman second: he toured with the Kronos Quartet with it and fell asleep at a performance. He was heard to remark, at the end, "they could have given us a pee break!"
This is a good reminder for me to do something I’ve intended to do for some time: review your “Tough Symphonists” series and give a few of those masochisterpieces a spin.
The perfect word to describe any Pettersson symphony is "cathartic"!
I know Petterson 9 pretty well! I think it's a wonderful piece! Maybe a touch too long, but I think it's a very engaging piece! But yes, it's a test... it really bombards you for 70 min straight.
The original recording (Comissiona/Göteborg SO) was 85 minutes long as well, which is fascinating as the work was written for them, and Pettersson says in the score it should be 65-70 minutes.
At 85 minutes it is pretty dreary, but I don't think there's anything particularly masochistic about the 70 minute Lindberg or Francis recordings.
I own the Comissiona recording. It was released on 2 Lp:s in 1978. I belive that it is the best of the recordings made so far. Yes, it lasts 85 minutes but the experience is more true to the score. At the end of the symphony you feel owerwhelmed by emotions.
Tlhank you Dave. This had me laughing out loud and your masterly singing of some of these pieces will stay with me for quite a while. Needless to say I shall not be subjecting myself to the real thing.
The only one of these I've heard is Sorabji's "Opus Clavicembalisticum," in the five-CD boxed set by John Ogdon on Altarus. I remember thinking that it was a lot of soft passages that sounded like Debussy and a lot of loud ones that sounded like Liszt, and nothing in between. It's not surprising that John Cage led the first complete public performance of Satie's "Vexations," since to play the work once requires a minute and a half; to play it the stipulated 840 times requires a day and a half, and Cage famously recruited five pianists (including himself and David Tudor) to play it in relay. And my list of "masochisterpieces" would definitely include Cage's own "Variations IV," an electronic piece whose premiere lasted six hours. Everest recorded it but only issued bits of it, as much as would fit on two LP's, and the LP I had was called "Variations IV, Volume 2" and was prefaced with a five-minute spoken introductory lecture on how the work was created that I found considerably more listenable than the work itself.
Ok, I must be weird. I just gave the Petterson 9 another listen (CPO - Francis) and enjoyed it quite a lot. It does have a bit of "film score" moments to it that make it a bit relatable, even if the extended repetition of things doesn't quite achieve the same net result as the contemporary minimalists were building.
Im really loving this guy
He's a treasure.
Ah! Yes! Pettersson is one of my favorites when I’m in “a mood”. Although, I sort of object to the choice of symphony 9 as it famously ends with a major key plagal cadence. Not peaceful, but tranquil (as Shostakovich 8 does) which is more than he typically gives you. Of course the “popular Petterssons” 6-8 are more emotionally giving and not as “punishing” but they could perhaps sting more. My vote for the most masochistic Pettersson symphony would have to be symphony 10. Not as long, but more ferociously jagged in my opinion. He sets out from the very beginning to pound you into the ground with that snare drum. Also somewhat more devoid of those little beautiful segments he tended to sprinkle in. I don’t know if I “enjoy” Pettersson, as you said. But when I want to sulk around he does exactly what I need and for that reason I love him.
I really enjoy his seventh symphony. I would recommend it to anyone. No pain listening to that one.
@@bjornjagerlund3793 It's not a punishment, but it is morose. That little island of F#-Major string chorale-y stuff is one of my favorite moments in all of music.
I like the searing alto sax of the 16th symphony
@@AlexMadorsky It really comes across as one continuous howl into the void!
Perhaps a transcription of Gielen's quartet for violas da gamba would sound interesting: a dead swan's rotting corpse as played by dying cows.
Maybe, instead of “Un Vieux Souvenir”, he should have called it “The Rotting Swan”.🦢
I like difficult music, so I was naturally drawn to this video. I am shocked that I don't have recordings of any of these, though I am aware of some of them. This situation will have to be rectified. I look forward to the assault upon my ears.
“Waka waka”! Love it! Always entertaining Dave!
Oh gosh. I just rewatched your Schumann symphony cycle talk. Now that gorgeous music and then thinking of listening to pettersson. Oh praise the lord! I am choosing the Schumann. Haha
“I now am paying the price. I have a Greek eternal punishment. I have to sit through these things..”
- Morton Feldman, mirthfully, on his late works.
The Congress Hotel in Tucson, a few years ago, hosted a performance of Vexations 840. A musician performed for an hour, then another musician took over. Mostly piano but other instruments and groups of instruments. Not cacophonous at all! Relaxing, really, hence not a masochisterpiece. To add an additional layer of Dada, John Dillinger was captured at the Congress Hotel in 1934.
Hello from Germany! I just stumbled over your channel and I have to say: Großartig. Danke für Ihre gute und spannende Arbeit. Take care! ❤🎶👍🇩🇪
Thank you, and welcome!
The description of the Klusák piqued my interest, so I've just gone away to check it out and wow, I love it! The adagietto is weaved through so it seems like not such strict serialism perhaps? Anyway. Can anyone else recommend other similar pieces to me? The Rochberg Pachelbel immediately comes to my mind.
Clever title! Well David, I sampled a few on the list. I listened for as long as I could stand it before banging my head against the wall. If I had any masochism in my psychological makeup you’ve cured me!
Great tips! I do enjoy some occasional masochism, after all life truly is miserable and gruesome at times and it's great realising so. As you might have guessed, I am somewhat Germanic ...
I've heard six of these in live performances, rather five as it concerns another piece by Sorabji I don't recall the title of. It was played by a pianist acquantance who tried to meticuilously play all the composed notes of the score. When the performance was done (it must have been over an hour an a half) he was left with severly bruised fingertips, even drawing some droplets of blood. Sorabji was a challenge for him he would not give up on, but he refused to play it ever again, and even I have lost any desire to experience it again. But hey, he suffered for his music and now it was our (the audience's) turn and I respect that. From your list I will have a listen of Gielen's quartet, don't care much of Petterson, Pfitzner or Klusák though based on your descriptions.
Generaly speaking I mainly listen to contemporary and avantgarde music, just because I am curious. I don't expect everything to be marvelous or even 'good', but that's just the way it is. Only by listening I learn waht I appreciate (and why) an what I don't. In every period there was only a limited number of compositions that truly stand the test of time. Our own timeperiod is no different, the filter of time is just not there, so there's more to go through in order to find the gems.
This is one of your funniest videos, loved the story about the Schoenberg Wind Quintet. It makes sense that Cancrizans would show up at the end of the video, these pieces probably inspired him to wipe the slate clean like the Noah's Ark story.
Great title Dave!
Some day I hope you will mention Hindemith's youthful mutilation of the overture to the Flying Dutchman, literally titled "Overture to the Flying Dutchman as Sight-read by a Bad Spa Orchestra at 7 in the Morning by the Well"
I have mentioned it.
To be fair, Opus Clavicembalisticum has not been recorded properly; both (complete) recordings to date suck. However, Eric Xi Xin Liang has been uploading individual movements for some time now, and it's amazing. You can check it out on youtube.
Many thanks for the humanistic outlook you present. I feel I’ve come back home again.
Thank you!
We perfomed the Satie in an all-nighter when I was at music college with students playing in shifts.
"Vexations" is best combined with a simultaneous performance of Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music" repeated as many times as required, and then immediately followed by John Cage's "ORGAN2/ASLSP".
The Boulez sonata sounds like a piano got drunk, wandered into an M. C. Escher drawing, and promptly fell down a set of endless stairs.
The Gielen string quartet, on the other hand, sounds like something Frank Zappa might have written for Ensemble Modern toward the end of his life, and it sounds like Zappa knew and was inspired by this piece. It has shades of "Food Gathering in Post-Industrial America, 1992". It really isn't _bad,_ it's more like it just doesn't know where it's going or when to stop, or ultimately how to end. If it had the more interesting bits compressed into 12 to 15 minutes, I might actually like it the way I like the Zappa composition.
There’s a video of UA-camr and composer Samuel Andreyev listening to the entire Feldman second quartet. I can’t imagine what he was thinking…
It was fun!
@@samuel_andreyev cool. Maybe I’ll listen to it someday.
Excellent piece.
If you are a sadist, these are the recordings to give away. I delighted in your delight, Dave.
I disagree with the Sorabji comments... I think he has a fascinating way of writing that, true, isn't for everyone. There's something I like about the wandering quality of it, though. Particularly his nocturnes and slower movements. But even I will admit that it took me a while to get used to it, but I now find the music very rewarding
I'm glad you found your way into it!
The nocturnes have been the most difficult works of his to get into for me personally, yet they're the first pieces recommended to new Sorabji listeners. I devour his music for hours at a time but the nocturnes are something I rarely play, personally. Maybe that's why so many people try listening to his music and conclude that it's not for them.
The Boulez is my favorite piano piece. Period.
So?
@@markodern789 and you’re the smartest UA-cam commenter
@@markodern789 it’s a win-win
Love the Pittsburgh with Honeck. I've also enjoyed their latest Beethoven 3. I think the Pittsburgh Symphony is really sounding top notch right now.
I've heard the story of the Boulez dispute over Polini's performance of the 2nd Sonata and it is probably true in part. I'm quite fond of the 2nd Sonata. In fact I tend to prefer his works for the keyboard over everything else he wrote.
Oh, by the glory of all my ancestors! When my 9th graders ask me for some music in the classroom, they are up for a nasty surprise. I am already compiling a reproduction list with some of these pieces, and cannot wait for Monday. Thank you, sir!
Wish I could be there! Have fun.
I heard a talk given by Morton Feldman where he reported he had just sat through two performances of his 2nd String Quartet during the same week! You did it to yourself, Morty! Can't very well get up and walk out, can you?🤣
I was surprised you didn't have any Ustvolskaya. I find her stuff harder to listen to than anyone,
A friend of mine shudders every time he thinks about a performance he attended of Humphrey Searle's opera 'Hamlet' in which every single word of the Shakespeare's text was set to dissonant serial music.
The first piece that came to my mind was Luigi Nono's 'Como una ola de fuerza y luz". The soundscape might be interesting, but I haven't managed to get through it.
I don't think I've found any Nono I've really been able to get into. I recall having that one on a DG disc and never finishing it.
To me, Nono is the bottom of the barrel. All political posturing and no talent. I've got no patience for it. The LaSalle Quartet also recorded Nono's String Quartet "An Diotima", which is not as ugly as the Gielen quartet (which is ugly on purpose), but which is absolutely brutally boring. A mind-numbing 3/4 of an hour of pianissimo sound effects and general pauses of varying lengths. I was at an early performance in Cincinnati, and people were too bored to even boo. It was like listening to a lame lecture on dialectics in an auditorium with the microphone mercifully turned off.
@@marknewkirk4322 "Nono's String Quartet 'An Diotima'" I heard it once. It reminded me of Schönbergs String Trio op. 45 with it's pauses. Time that DG offers a LaSalle Quartet box.
This was great fun!
Andras Schiff amusingly said of the Schoenberg Wind Quintet that if he never heard it again, that would be too soon
Indexing was great! Why did they abandon it? Perfect for music appreciation courses, or would have been.
I just happen to like the 2 Schnabel symphonies!
I don't see how that matters...
Any CDs of Schoenberg’s Wind Quintet - let alone of most (all?) of his works - would best be used as skeet shooting targets.
I remember buying a Boulez 20/21 CD. Got rid of that possession real fast.
I feel Langgaard's 11th symphony belongs somewhere on this list.
Honorable Mention: Johann Nepomuk David's thorny Melancholia, op 53, for viola and strings. Quite a strange exercise in highly dissonant, atonal polyphony that will cause all but the least susceptible to emotional suggestion to desire hara-kiri. Actually, I sort of like it.
ANY publicity is good publicity, so I encourage anyone who's never heard the Pfitzner to check it out..especially the 1966 performance by Joseph Keilberth , with the wonderful soprano Agnes Giebel and the legendary Fritz Wunderlich in one of his last performances. Yeah, there's definitely some lofty "sludge" in the work (and the CD should obviously contain a warning label for sufferers of asthma), but anyone who appreciates late-romantic, tonal, excessive and opulent Germanic music will surely want to know it. LR
That's pushing it.
The Metzmacher recording is lighter and lucid.
Here come the Sorabji crazies in 3, 2, 1…..
Guilty.
Where is toothles toe?😂
Hello there
A whole cd of 4'33" by Cage. I can't tolerate silence for more than 33"
I enjoy Schoenberg at the best of times, and I thought you would have mentioned the String Trio as a gruesome exercise in pathology, but I have to agree the Wind Quintet is uniquely unlovable. I had to find a recording (from the Robert Craft edition) and put it on to remind me of what a tough nut it is to crack. Made better by the fact that it is dedicated to the composer's grandson - I wonder what he made of it - I can imagine his excitement...
i'm just about to do the same thing
I just made a similar comment before reading yours!
I agree with your list, but nothing on it comes close to the utter denial of meaningful human life that Lou Reed produced with Metal Machine Music.
Satie was a musical surrealist.
Felix Greissle, Schoenberg's son-in-law from his first marriage, made an arrangement of Schoenberg's Wind Quintet, transforming it into a Sonata for Violin and Piano, and the piece is far more listenable (and in my opinion just plain better) in that form. It has been recorded absolutely splendidly by Ulf Wallin and Roland Pöntinen.
I am an ardent Schoenberg fan, but I will freely admit that the Wind Quintet is one of his least successful or enjoyable pieces. But give the Violin Sonata a chance. It really is a nice surprise.
Thanks, I didn't know of the arrangement. But I enjoy the sonorities of the original.
My first experience of how horrendous the strings of a symphony orchestra could sound was Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima. I'm sure that the composer wanted his listeners to feel bad and that piece certainly does the job. His St. Luke's Passion also fills the bill for oratorio masochists.
The score for Threnody is worth a look. The tone clusters on the page look like a squadron of bombers.
I remember when Sorabji was Some Sort of Thing. There seemed to be some sort of effort to push him on the public. Never could figure him out. I've never tried the Feldman 6 hour quartet, though I do like Feldman. Boulez, no way. And I rather like some of his stuff. Not that sonata. I gotta admit I find no pain in the Pettersson Ninth. At least not in LISTENING to it. And I like the Schoenberg wind quintet, crab canon and all.
There are a few there I've never heard. I'll give them a try. I can always turn them off if they get too vicious.
Listen to Sorabji's Fantasia Ispanica, KSS.55 recorded by Jonathan Powell on Altarus, released in 2004. That album will either make you fall in love with his music, or conclude that it's simply not for you.
@@kingconcerto5860 Gave it a try. Yep, just not for me! I don't get it.
@@1-JBL I hear you. I've always been obsessed with the piano and piano virtuosity so that goes a long way in my appreciation of his work I suppose. I've shown the 2nd movement of that Fantasia Ispanica as a standalone piece to a few people who claimed to like not like Sorabji before (or modernism/contemporary/atonal/dissonant music at all), one of my friends described it as sounding like "exploring the inside of a giant haunted grandfather clock." Clearly not for everyone though. The Piano Sonata #1, KSS.20 is a more immediately accessible piece to ears that haven't adjusted to his totally alien idiom yet.
He gets pulled out whenever innocent pop music people need to be impressed with a giant data point.
Hi Dave. Is John Cage’s Organ2/ASLSP aka As SLow aS Possible a valid masochisterpiece entry? I mean, in its 639 years long version I’m not even sure it can be considered as music, it’s just background noise. PS I tried the 17 min long recording version, but that doesn’t sound like music either.
Attempting to read a single score by Brian Ferneyhough seems like masochism to me.
Sorry to be pedantic, and I can be sure you won’t care, but Boulez 2 is not total serialism. That wasn’t a thing until the early 50s.
You're right on all counts.
I disagree with a lot of this but keep up the good work anyway. You are a breath of fresh air.
If listening is masochistic, what about those training, playing and recording it ? :D
Playing something is often easier than having to listen to it. Just ask some jazz musicians…
@@vinylarchaeologistnot a 5h piece or a very difficult contemporary piece, trust me😂
Terry Riley, "In C."
i don't find it so bad, hearing the little variations over time pop up can be delightful, but it indeed requires a bit of endurance on the part of the listener, when they want a bit of an academic exercise with their listening.
I also found it not so bad when I heard it back in the day.
Paraphrasing Mark Twain on the Book of Mormon ("Chloroform in print")--Chloroform in music. Great insomnia remedy. There's always the possibility that he intended it as such.
I know enjoying Sorabji is a tall order for many people, but I'm curious if you've ever heard Jonathan Powell's recording of the Fantasia Ispanica, KSS.55 on Altarus... Listening to that album repeatedly is what made me fall in love with Sorabji's music, and that's the piece I always refer people to as an introduction to his music, along with the Piano Sonata #1, KSS.20 recording by Hamelin, also on Altarus. Have you heard / do you enjoy either of these Sorabji recordings? I can't listen to any Madge or Ogdon recordings, they're played so horribly and that Michael Habermann album that everybody knows is highly dated at this point.
Well, my choice in this direction goes in a different direction: J. S. Bach's Flute and Harpsichord sonatas.
Well now i know what i'm going to first among the embarrassment of riches of Schoenberg in the Robert Craft edition.
Right, well after spending some time to allow the piece to wash over me twice, it's not so harrowing an experience at all. However! This is because i made no efforts to discern the form and follow the recapitulation like Mr. Hurwitz worked so hard to. The realization that it was a retrograde inversion would be enough to make anyone crabby. That was the masochistic aspect! Anyway, as i listened, it raised questions about the relationship between composer and audience, and composer and performer. How much are we really expected to understand? How much are we as an audience actually not permitted to understand? Is all that dodecaphonic planning and preparation worth the effort for those infrequent sonic convergences that happen along the way? Do performers go into this as a labor of love? How do they approach giving a good performance? What do they have to hang their hat on? It's my understanding that though many composers of the 20th Century avant-garde didn't care if anyone enjoyed their music or even listened to it, Schoenberg was not of that ilk. He genuinely wanted to communicate something to his fellow man. The Wind Quintet didn't really speak to me, but Gurrelieder, Pierrot Lunaire, and a host of other things really do.
Before you listen to Max Reger's clarinet quintet, better take a seasick pill.
Oh gosh, is this still about music? 🙂
Let's just listen to "Punkt kontrapunkt" again. for laughs.
Whuuuuuut? No Reger?
What is there not to like about Reger? I recall needing to listen to his piano concerto a few times before I really loved it, but it's been a favorite of mine for years now.
Special mention: everything written by Philip Glass.
I'm in total agreement! I thought maybe his recent works would show signs of growth or advancement. Wrong! Still constantly noodling along with triads.
Such a cliche. Not inapplicable to much of his later output, but before he began churning out formulaic Philip Glass Inc. product, he actually penned some distinctive & high quality music with a few (admittedly too few) breathtaking and even moving passages. I can hardly imagine the closing Evening Song from Satyagraha or the Hymn to the Sun from Akhenaton leaving any sensitive listener emotionally unaffected.
Any piece that is more than an hour and a half long must either be background music at some point, or must make accomodations as to where the intermissions are etc.
I disagree. I listen to works which are multiple hours long with my undivided attention several times per week at the bare minimum. I know I'm not the only one.
Also, I reject the concept of "background music" entirely. If any music isn't worthy of receiving your undivided attention, regardless of it's length; what's the point of listening to it?
Feldman doesn't even try to keep your attention for all these hours, I attended a concert of for Philip Guston (almost 5h) and it was more like hypnosis, after a few hours your brain melts and you are in a sort of timeless limbo until the last 20 minutes, that for some reason sound like a coda and prepare you to the end. This is at least my perception
The only one I must have heard before is the Schoenberg windquintet. As a music masochist must still gets some pleasure and satisfaction out of it, I can only think of some early minimalistic repetitive music as by Philip Gass and some works by Stockhausen. that have that effect on me. Any one minute of it isn't pleasing, but the repetitive strokes one endures cause some kind of euphoria. But most works/composers that cause me to suffer listening to them i disregard swiftly There is quite a lot of physical torture i'd rather endure then having the, for example , complete Schoenberg string quartets at high volume forced upon me. So if ever the enemy catches me, no need for any bloody business to get secret information..
I can understand that there is some insistance to encourage people not to give up on "difficult" music they don't like initially, ("sooner or later you'll see the Light") but that very rarely made any change for me. Even if one only enjoys or is fascinated by 10 percent of all classical music , that's still a lot to listen to.
I feel tortured when listening to the inner movements of Bach Cantatas, or too much Brahms in a sitting, and the Chopin Nocturnes.
There's a difference between being tortured and being bored to tears, which I can understand as a reaction to the pieces you mention. But as tedious as lower tier Bach or Brahms can be, I don't understand how they can be regarded as torture. Treatments for insomnia, maybe.
At least the Chopin Nocturnes are beautiful ( though I prefer the Polonaises and Scherzos.)
@@valerietaylor9615 They're soooo boring though.
Oh God, I listened to some Pfitzner recently. Or rather I listened to some samples of his chamber music on Presto. The first few notes always seem promising, but then it degenerates into slop.
As for Schoenberg, I continue to believe that he only turned to dodecaphony in a desperate (and successful) attempt to seem important. He hid his mediocrity by evading requirements of melody, harmony and structure.
Well, I disagree about Schoenberg. He was a very great composer in many ways, but all of his music is cantankerous, even the tonal stuff, just as he was.
Schoenberg has many masochisterpieces for sure, so I'd nominate Moses und Aron. Dodecaphonic music with voices is even more unbearable and this late work of his is the perfect example of tortuous music. On the other hand, I disagree about the Pfitzner. It's a beautiful work from start to finish and it features some really inspired passages.
Pfitzner's piano concerto is worth listening to also.
Sure it does. Ahem. Moses und Aron, on the other hand, is magnificent.
The only piece by Schoenberg that I like, is “Verklaerte Nacht”.
I'll see your Boulez second sonata and raise you his Structures (I and II). Unlistenable nonsense. And I like me some Boulez. But man, what horrid, horrid music.
I'm the same way. I like Sur incises, Notations (the orchestrated version), Repons, a few others. I doubt that any of it will stand the test of time. Repons is nice, but you practically have to have Colossus the Forbin Project on hand to perform it. Things like that are going to disappear. But the piano stuff is just awful, especially those STRUCTURES pieces.
@@1-JBL I think of Xenakis similarly- his solo piano works are utterly horrid, and then you have his orchestral works like Jonchaies which I absolutely adore.