Good to have you back with the white board. Never occurred to me you might a Melbourne Lad (the RMIT comment below). Loving the Smashpot conversion on my fork - now just trying to learn to get the most from it.
Hi Steve, love the videos! What are your thoughts on "ibis traction tune" or light damping and light rebound tunes with faster than traditional rebound and compression speeds?
I'd say it's a flawed philosophy to begin with. Chasing higher suspension velocities is not a good goal, it's not indicative of any improvement in anything. For example, you can generate higher compression velocities by making the suspension much harsher (somewhat counterintuitively, higher LSC causes this), and you can generate higher rebound velocities by removing the oil from the shock. I don't think anyone in their right minds is pursuing those goals.
Of course, tyres have a huge effect on steady state grip. Pressure, compound, casing, rim width, tyre size, wheel diameter, wheel lateral stiffness, frame/fork lateral stiffness, rider physical stiffness, lean angle, effective lean angle, steering angle, etc etc are all parameters that have a considerable effect.
Finally! Have you had a look at the new Charger RC IFP style cartridges that come with the Select models? What do you think of them and what do you think are possibilities for tuning?
Love all your videos. I'm about to buy a new fork for a Rail 7. What would you recomend between 160mm 2020 Bomber Z1 Coil or 36 Factory? Weight and price are not factors. Looking for grip, support and comfort. Thanks for the content.
I really don't like the fact that most peopple who claim to know something about suspension, claim that less compression damping is always better, and many manufacturers (Rock Shox cough) seem to have taken that to the heart, no support from the damper at all on smaller hits. From what I feel, a fork with almost no comp damping seems to skip around instead of tracking the ground, as for rear shocks, I personally have a hard time distinguishing what's going on, but I definitely prefer more damping there, for taking big hits without super progressive spring, that also feel a lot more controlled that the alternative. I keep wondering why does noone apart from Manitou use a hydraulic bottom out in their suspension, that thing is amazing in the front, (I know there are aftermarket kits) in the rear you can achieve much the same thing leverage ratio so it's not needed.
Piotr Sulej good point, I feel a heavier damped bike feels more composed/controlled than a bike that relies more on air pressure. I really prefer Fox over RS for that reason, way more effective damping from the knobs.
It has a lot of benefits (IMO mostly in terms of rim protection). Semantically, the way they describe it as "damping" is somewhat inaccurate though. It's much more of a secondary spring than it is damping, but that's sort of irrelevant as it mostly does what it says on the tin.
Increasing load on one of the wheels will increase the amount of grip available, but only to some extent. You have to mention tire load sensitivity- with increasing load the amount of grip increases, but not in a linear manner, that's why you see generally FWD cars with 60/40 F/R weight distribution understeering. There's even more to that- once you apply longitudinal force(braking, accelerating) you have less lateral force available. I'd like to hear how center of gravity height influences cornering(stability in the corner, force needed to lean the bike etc.)
There are a lot of things we have to simplify and omit to keep these videos from becoming a 3hr engineering lecture :) Pacejka curves for tyres (which describe basically the nonlinear load sensitivity you're describing) are most pertinent to on-road vehicles with very stiff tyre carcasses with a relatively square and wide profile (ie not bicycle tyres). Under light loads, ie the initial vertical loading of a car tyre from zero, tyre grip basically increases in an above-linear manner while the mechanical interference between rubber and road increases at a rate that is disproportionately higher than the load increase (eg contact patch size is increasing significantly, micro roughness is engaging with the surface roughness of the road etc). Once the tyre's mechanical engagement with the road is no longer increasing linearly (or more) with the vertical load on it (ie 10% more vertical load leads to say 5% more rubber contact) then the rate of grip increase becomes below-linear with increasing load. At that point, stiffness and shear strength of the rubber become critical, carcass stiffness and ply direction becomes critical, camber angle becomes critical, slip angle becomes critical, etc etc - it's not a simple equation and nobody (even in F1, from what I understand) has fully parameterised it in a manner that gives mathematical models of tyres the ability to accurately and consistently predict the results on the road. And then all that gets thrown out anyway once you're on dirt :)
They have the potential to outperform telescopics if done right. The Structure Cycleworks one is the best of the lot in that regard so far (it does nothing worse than a telescopic in terms of ride quality for starters - that's a really big achievement on its own), but it's integrated with the frame so it's a big commitment compared to a standalone fork, plus it's a bit heavier and a lot of people struggle with the looks (I think it looks sick personally). The Trust and Motion forks both have some simply amazing aspects but they also each have some significant drawbacks too. We'll touch on that in upcoming videos.
Yes remember all of this riding into a corner & you will be very unlikely to do it right, without many attempts, riding is about slight movements that make a difference, do not over think this, just find the flow?
HES BACK!!!!
Keep it coming! These are my favorite tech suspension and bike videos!
Mine to 👍😊
I love these videos. Proper engineering explained with graphs. No BS...
Good to have you back with the white board. Never occurred to me you might a Melbourne Lad (the RMIT comment below). Loving the Smashpot conversion on my fork - now just trying to learn to get the most from it.
i wish i could talk like this about anything in life
YEEES, please keep uploading. Love your videos!!
You're back! 🙌 Love all of these videos. Keep them coming!
completely underrated channel!
love your work!
Hi Steve, love the videos! What are your thoughts on "ibis traction tune" or light damping and light rebound tunes with faster than traditional rebound and compression speeds?
I'd say it's a flawed philosophy to begin with. Chasing higher suspension velocities is not a good goal, it's not indicative of any improvement in anything. For example, you can generate higher compression velocities by making the suspension much harsher (somewhat counterintuitively, higher LSC causes this), and you can generate higher rebound velocities by removing the oil from the shock. I don't think anyone in their right minds is pursuing those goals.
Steve is BACK
So happy to see a new video.
Will you go in to the effects of tire pressure as well the next video? Wouldnt that have an effect even on the steady state?
Of course, tyres have a huge effect on steady state grip. Pressure, compound, casing, rim width, tyre size, wheel diameter, wheel lateral stiffness, frame/fork lateral stiffness, rider physical stiffness, lean angle, effective lean angle, steering angle, etc etc are all parameters that have a considerable effect.
Finally!
Have you had a look at the new Charger RC IFP style cartridges that come with the Select models? What do you think of them and what do you think are possibilities for tuning?
It's just a money saving measure, easier to put together than the bladder version. I'm pretty sure the valving is just as bad as it's always been.
What's that on the bottom of your fork @ 8:37?
Accelerometer housing for the datalogger.
@@VorsprungSuspension its the secus!
Love all your videos. I'm about to buy a new fork for a Rail 7. What would you recomend between 160mm 2020 Bomber Z1 Coil or 36 Factory? Weight and price are not factors. Looking for grip, support and comfort. Thanks for the content.
Dude seriously?
grip 2 factory with vorsprung smashpot duh
I really don't like the fact that most peopple who claim to know something about suspension, claim that less compression damping is always better, and many manufacturers (Rock Shox cough) seem to have taken that to the heart, no support from the damper at all on smaller hits. From what I feel, a fork with almost no comp damping seems to skip around instead of tracking the ground, as for rear shocks, I personally have a hard time distinguishing what's going on, but I definitely prefer more damping there, for taking big hits without super progressive spring, that also feel a lot more controlled that the alternative. I keep wondering why does noone apart from Manitou use a hydraulic bottom out in their suspension, that thing is amazing in the front, (I know there are aftermarket kits) in the rear you can achieve much the same thing leverage ratio so it's not needed.
Piotr Sulej good point, I feel a heavier damped bike feels more composed/controlled than a bike that relies more on air pressure. I really prefer Fox over RS for that reason, way more effective damping from the knobs.
Hi! Do you reckon fitting inerters or mass dampers would minimize the variation of dynamic contact patch?
No, quite the opposite. They only work well on road going race cars where low velocity chassis vibration modes are a primary concern.
@@VorsprungSuspension would a hypothetical mass damper that's tuned to high frequency work though if it's attached to the unsprung arm like in motogp?
Sweet!!!!! Danke!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on Cushcore as a suspension system
It has a lot of benefits (IMO mostly in terms of rim protection). Semantically, the way they describe it as "damping" is somewhat inaccurate though. It's much more of a secondary spring than it is damping, but that's sort of irrelevant as it mostly does what it says on the tin.
@@VorsprungSuspension Cheers mate
Increasing load on one of the wheels will increase the amount of grip available, but only to some extent. You have to mention tire load sensitivity- with increasing load the amount of grip increases, but not in a linear manner, that's why you see generally FWD cars with 60/40 F/R weight distribution understeering. There's even more to that- once you apply longitudinal force(braking, accelerating) you have less lateral force available.
I'd like to hear how center of gravity height influences cornering(stability in the corner, force needed to lean the bike etc.)
4 wheel vehicle dynamics are vastly more complex and not really relevant to a bicycle. Have a look at Moto GP bikes and their front weight bias.
There are a lot of things we have to simplify and omit to keep these videos from becoming a 3hr engineering lecture :)
Pacejka curves for tyres (which describe basically the nonlinear load sensitivity you're describing) are most pertinent to on-road vehicles with very stiff tyre carcasses with a relatively square and wide profile (ie not bicycle tyres). Under light loads, ie the initial vertical loading of a car tyre from zero, tyre grip basically increases in an above-linear manner while the mechanical interference between rubber and road increases at a rate that is disproportionately higher than the load increase (eg contact patch size is increasing significantly, micro roughness is engaging with the surface roughness of the road etc). Once the tyre's mechanical engagement with the road is no longer increasing linearly (or more) with the vertical load on it (ie 10% more vertical load leads to say 5% more rubber contact) then the rate of grip increase becomes below-linear with increasing load. At that point, stiffness and shear strength of the rubber become critical, carcass stiffness and ply direction becomes critical, camber angle becomes critical, slip angle becomes critical, etc etc - it's not a simple equation and nobody (even in F1, from what I understand) has fully parameterised it in a manner that gives mathematical models of tyres the ability to accurately and consistently predict the results on the road.
And then all that gets thrown out anyway once you're on dirt :)
Thank you Steve!!!
You didn’t explain the difference between pink and purple though?
what's your view on linkage forks?
They have the potential to outperform telescopics if done right. The Structure Cycleworks one is the best of the lot in that regard so far (it does nothing worse than a telescopic in terms of ride quality for starters - that's a really big achievement on its own), but it's integrated with the frame so it's a big commitment compared to a standalone fork, plus it's a bit heavier and a lot of people struggle with the looks (I think it looks sick personally). The Trust and Motion forks both have some simply amazing aspects but they also each have some significant drawbacks too. We'll touch on that in upcoming videos.
He is back with a new hair cut!
You mean hair! LOL.
Been a while! You look good! Thx for the Smashpot 👊
Yes remember all of this riding into a corner & you will be very unlikely to do it right, without many attempts, riding is about slight movements that make a difference, do not over think this, just find the flow?
man, you should be going to MIT or something
I actually did, if you want to put an R in front of that :)
@@VorsprungSuspension it was a fast and the furious joke, but I'll pay that!
You got it reversed, at steady riding there is 65 % weight on front tire, 35 on back.
Definitely not on flat ground when not accelerating. Static weight bias is approximately 65% rearwards.
You are not dead
Well, give it some time!
Yeah because 6 feet is the magic number number...🤦♂️ oh wait it's 3 feet now! Silly me...🙄
Looks like you fell for the scam...
What a shame
What?