It’s so nice to find a youtuber who’s so knowledgeable and passionate about VIII. It really doesn’t get the respect it deserves and I like that you actually get the nuance behind the writing.
I'm confused on the premise of your whole statement, theres literally thousands of youtubers who know about ff8 better than I do and I beat the game. Castle at the end didnt slow me down because of all the ff8 youtubers who made videos on ff8 since youtubes been up and running. So either you dont know how to use a search bar so you only watch what youtube suggests or you just said that so you can flirt with someone you dont know and will never meet and might never read your comment...which would be weird to say it nicely
@@jamesmeppler6375 I don't personally find FF8 to be all that underrated, I think personally that the legacy of the game is a pretty fairly accurate summation of the game it reflects. That said, this is a bizarre reaction to somebody's comment regardless of how accurate the comment reflects reality. There's no need to be so adversarial.
I had never thought about the connection between magic and the moon. I always saw magic in 8 as an aspect of the natural world. The existence of draw points and extracting magic from stones you can get gave me the impression that humanity was the odd one out for not having magic.
Loved your video and views on magic and technology. Thank you :) FF8 lore is severely underrated and much less discussed as much as the other FF games. And is quite expansive.. for example, the GF research done at the deep sea research centre aka Battleship Island.
You know what seems pretty interesting, is that this insight pairs very nicely with your observation about Cid and his plans as well as why Rinoa and Squall are not picking up the torch that their parents left behind. In the case of Laguna, Cid, and Julia, those characters are proposing for our protagonists a life determined by a less romantic choice. They are proposing a life determined by planning and merely the intellect. Meanwhile, Squall leaps out into space without any plan at all. Squall and Rinoa, by choosing romance, are choosing a side of magic rather than mere technology.
Appreciate all these videos you've done for FF8. It's like top 3 or 4 in the series for me, and I don't know why I feel that way, but your deep dives help put things into words for me.
@@KrusherMike You know FuzzFinger (Final Fantasy tutorials channel) covered the PuPu quest. I didn't watch it to learn about the quest - I already knew the whole thing. I watched it to listen to a guy with a funny British accent to see how many times he would say the word PuPu. Admittedly, I'll never win an award for the person who demonstrates the most maturity but that's fine with me because the simple joy that video brought me was worth it.
Hi, I just discovered you today and wanted to say: please keep doing what you're doing. That's some quality content right there, I like your specific points of views. And you presented them really well. *Chef's kiss* well done! :D
Loved it! Never really saw this flip the game made about magic and science, but it is really an interesting take that I wonder if even the ones created the storie were conscious of? Maybe because of the need to go away as far as possible from the latest entries, this is what they landed on.
To add to this, the predecessor civilization in FF8, the Centra, developed a lot of the technology seen in the game (arguably the majority of it.) So rather than the ancients being somehow imbued with mystical, magic powers instead in FF8 the ancients were a technologically advanced society. Kinda cool, thematically.
@@jessl1934I think realistically speaking, this is how magic would really work in real life. Much like science, magic's goal is to control and manipulate. Do you think that's how magic is gonna work in Unreality on "Kingdom Hearts" ? Maybe that's what Sora's Squall like hairstyle predicts.
Oh it gets weirder than that. Magic in the world of FF8 comes from a godlike being named Hyne and a war he had with humanity, where he removed his own skin to give people magic, because they wanted it and he tricked them as his skin didn't have magic, but real magic does manifest in women, the sorceresses, a succession of witches. Final Fantasy VIII has so much backstory but it never goes out of its way to tell you more than his required to understand the struggles of the characters. If you know where to look it gets nuts. Or you can watch the complete unabridged timeline over on Final Fantasy Union.
Interesting take I haven’t heard before. There’s a lot of negative that comes with being connected to the internet that I didn’t think would happen in 1999 looking at walkthroughs on gamefaqs for this game. Seeing new concepts (to me) on a game 25 years old that everyone I know either didn’t play or didn’t like/appreciate is one of the things that reminds me why the internet can be so great. Connecting ideas to people across the world. The person that has something negative to say about this comment will bring me back to the reality of the bad parts of the internet again 😂
I had not really considered the good and evil magic and technology split in the FF games before, but I also recently realized that the Garleans in FFXIV are incapable of using magic. I always thought they were more technology focused because that's just how they are or something, I never realized there was an explicit dichotomy there, and one that matches this pattern. (Seeing as my first FF game was FFV, where the antagonist is also magical, I think I can be forgiven, haha)
the basis theme of FF7 is 'light in the dark'; while FF8 is 'dark in the light'. - i heard from somewhere in the interview. so i guess it's intentional.
We literally do that in FF8. That's why they needed Time Compression to meet Ultimecia. That's also why Rinoa was no longer able to be possessed anymore. The power is her own now. By having Ultimecia send her powers into the past rather than the future means she'll be the last evil sorceress.
I love how 8 holds both magic and technology in a sort of dialectic tension. They're much less interested in moralizing here and show off how both are used for immense good and for great harm. The whole setting feels oddly post-apocalyptic. But we're a few centuries down the road from the apocalypse and things are starting to pick back up. And then bam, the things which are hinted at as having destroyed the world before are front and center again. But instead of some gritty Fist of the Northstar type hero out for revenge and justice. We get Squall, an awkward kid caught up in a love story. So good. Surprisingly subversive to the rest of the series. Certainly to the later entries which cannot seem to abide the idea that the player come to their own conclusions about some things.
The game info is conflicting but it's stated that the Centra were destroyed by the previous Lunar Cry that occurred 80 years prior to the time the story is set in, although in the Lunar Base a character states that the Centra were destroyed "over a hundred years ago". Whichever is the case, and I'm more likely to believe the 80 years claim, it happened more or less within living memory in-game.
Brilliant analysis as always! Somehow I'm totally unsurprised that the magic as a feminine tool is seen as a negative in VIII (and that it's a kind and nurturing thing in other games)... I can't help but feel that even though para-magic is a "good" tool, it's only by not being easy to access (need a GF, with all the wrongs that go with that) that the concept of magic hasn't changed the way it's perceived. You know, like teaching and nursing professions being devalued the more women take them up! (hard stare into the camera) I never considered the opposition to magic being science, though - but it totally makes sense! Can't believe I never thought of that before. One question that I'd love to pick your brains over is whether or not you think the legend of Hyne is true. All we get is stories withought it ever being a focus - you gotta go digging for that! And as a story told to children (and iirc by that old guy in Timber as well), it certainly smacks of "well, we needed an explanation and could well have made something up" instead of "a potentially definite truth" to me. (They should've called the moon Hyne.) -Mol
Wait, magic is feminine and you can only access magic with a GF. I wonder if they thought of the abbreviation as synonymous with a girlfriend at the time, even though as far as I know, the popularization of that abbreviation was much later.
Mol I'm convinced you and I are part of the same hivemind because i had the EXACT same thoughts!!! I personally think, like a lot of history, the legend of Hyne is a made up story that has a hint of truth. In the FF8 Ultimania, there's an extra story called 'A Day of Instruction at Garden' where an instructor in Balamb Garden teaches a class about the history of sorceresses and refers to hyne being the creator of sorceresses as a 'theory' that scholars created combining 'folklore, legends and known facts'. So I totally agree, i definitely dont think its a definite truth!
I think realistically speaking, this is how magic would really work in real life. Much like science, magic's goal is to control and manipulate. Do you think that's how magic is gonna work in Unreality on "Kingdom Hearts" ? Maybe that's what Sora's Squall like hairstyle predicts.
@@Iohannis42 you speak of control and manipulation as bad things, but that's not how I see them. They're artificial concepts, but they are often the encouragement for the pursuit of knowledge, which makes them appealing in my opinion, as well as neutral as knowledge itself. So magic IS much like science. And amidst that evil, there could be some good, for it can have its scientific approach. The brain, even memory, is a domain of science too.
I always pronounced "Hyne" as "High-knee" and imagined him as the Red Guy from Cow and Chicken. For real though, I love VIII. I love how much love shines through what was ultimately a botched project because of Spirits Within. I picked it up again recently and really noticed and appreciate how much life is in the animations. The graphics aren't great, but the animations make FFX look stiff as boards.
I had to look it up and the Japanese version is ハイン so it would be pronounced Hain. Either way, this video is great! When I saw the title, I was expecting how it works differently in a gameplay aspect. I never even considered the story aspect. Liked and subscribed.
I think this is why the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory doesn’t really work for me. Given everything we know about Rinoa, why would you assume that she would turn evil and do everything that caused the events of the game? Does becoming a Sorceress automatically shift your entire personality and make you evil? Does magic activate something in your brain like a sleeper agent? Or is the whole plot of the game deal with taking responsibility with power you’re given, be that magic or technology?
I can see her losing everyone she loves and having the world hate you be a major influence in turning her "evil." I like the theory but don't believe in it either. I just wanted to provide the counter point that without the support of love ones and being treated as 'evil' will make nearly any of us 'evil'.
I'm actually on thee other side of this I think it makes rinoa = ultimecia better, because a sorceress needs a knight there by their side to make them remember who they are and not get lost in their powers but with squall being her knight and possibly dying in one timeline the grief and lost of not having him there could make her become more twisted and villainess not bc it's her nature but bc of the circumstances. and her desire to be with him again, allows her to manipulate time itself to make another timeline where it can be possible. But bc he's still not her knight but her younger versions knight she still doesn't remember him until it's too late and he defeats her and in this timeline she still loses him but another version of her gets too have the happy ending and that makes it so tragic but compelling and better.
@@NaerysTargaryen26kinda like Naminé, and her need for Riku. That's why in the "Sea-Change of Fate" fic, even though she has Roxas and Xion by her side, Xehanort still gains more power over her the more fearful she grows of Kairi, the sadder she grows at what she has to do to Roxas and Xion, and the angrier she gets at having to spend time with Axel. Because she doesn't have Riku by her side. Kairi is awake too, and both her and Riku are busy working out their issues. He spends more time with her. It's just as well. Naminé should rely on herself more. And if she does need a knight, they should have no associations to anyone remotely close to DiZ. What a shame she can not spend as much time as Zexion as she'd like, or that Laexeaus is unavalaible because of Castle Oblivion. They are the adults she needs in her life.
@@NaerysTargaryen26 That would also draw a parallel with Laguna and Julia. They loved each other but ended up apart but in a way their kids ended up together as a sort of "another version of them gets to have the happy ending". I have seen this motif in an unrelated manga and I wonder if they all draw from the same source, maybe some classic Japanese literature.
2:21 Thank you for this. You could have shrugged it off and went on to the next thing but instead you went back and addressed it. That's true integrity.
i dont think there is a single person on the planet that doesnt pronounce (pre voice acting) ff names in their own unique way. theyre all so ambiguous and you could literally put the accent wherever you want
Magic being at the root of evil in VIII is not matched to it being good in VI and VII. Meteor was not on anyone's side, and the War of the Magi nearly destroyed the world.
@@contaru In FF7, what stops meteor? In FF there is almost always shades of gray. "Good" things get twisted to achieve bad ends, bad guys turn good. In FF7, mako is framed as being an inherently good thing. It is where all life comes from and it sustains the planet itself. There is no critical perspective on mako energy itself. Still, it fuels reactors and global wars, and it is used for horrific human experimentation. But to say that mako is not framed as being inherently benign, if not outright good, because some people used it to do bad things is tantamount to saying hammers are bad because one time a hammer was used as a murder weapon. People would think you are nuts if you made a claim like that. Magic in FF7 was good in the sense that it could help people. How people chose to use that help is a matter of agency and a discussion on whether people are themselves good or not. Jenova is bad in FF7 in the sense that she was actively harmful to people and the planet. She was used in a variety of ways, and in some ways she unintentionally helped to save the planet. Yet she is framed as inherently bad. FF8 takes a critical view of magic and diegetically there is a critical narrative of magic itself. This means that magic has a negative framing - magic comes from evil forces trying to destroy the world, magic actively harms the people who use it. In FF8, magic is poisonous. It's not about tallying up the number of good things something achieves in the story vs the bad things and arriving at the sum to determine good-ness or bad-ness, it's about the discourse in the story and how it frames the thing itself.
@@jessl1934 Meteor was a spell that only functions to destroy planets. There was no gray there. Nothing was twisted in the way it was used. No one could have done a good thing by casting it. If the story was framing magic is inherently good, there would be no room for black materia. Mako itself was essential to the survival of the planet and everything on it, true, but it was also poisonous in high concentrations and was known to cause mutations in plants and animals exposed to it in entirely natural settings regardless of anyone's will. The idea that either mako or magic as a whole was benign in VII is a hallucination. No hammer destroys planets as a base function, nor will a room full of them poison anyone just by existing.
@contaru "If the story was framing materia as good, there would be no room for black materia" You aren't understanding. How does FF8 frame guns? As neutral. How does FF8 frame cars? A neutral. Neither are viewed critically, neither are examined or questioned. Nobody wrestles with whether or not they should be used. Yet they are very clearly used for militarism, imperialism, and hegemony in FF8. In FF7, you seek materia. You get stronger by finding materia. Nobody questions what it means for the soul energy that becomes crystallized in materia or if that is inherently bad. The game doesn't even discuss why the black materia exists or if some materia is inherently evil, so we don't know its origin or its purpose. The closest we get to a critical voice within the narrative is Aerith saying her white materia is special because it's useless and it does nothing. "Framing" in media criticism is not whether something does good or bad and, for the second time now, it's not the end result of calculating up the times it was good vs bad in the story. Framing is how something is viewed, is related to, and discussed within the story. Jenova is framed as inherently evil. The music, the responses to characters seeing her, the depiction of her, the discussions of her. Nobody asks about her own internal motives or if she was doing something necessary for her own survival. Nobody asks if she was driven mad and was acting upon this madness. She is framed as evil. It's not about how many good or bad things she does in the game. The chocobo farmer is dealt with as inherently good, he is framed as good. Nobody asks if chocobos are happy being penned up and even put in a tiny stable barely large enough to stand up in, perhaps for the entire game. There is no concern for animal rights in the game and whether the chocobo industry is ethical. It is framed as good. Put a large bird like an ostrich in a pen the size of a chocobo stable and you'd be at risk of animal abuse charges. But the framing doesn't care.
@@jessl1934 You're the one not understanding, carrying away with the assumption that I think magic in VI and VII is bad rather than good. I said that it isn't good. That's not the same as saying it's bad.
@contaru You absolutely cannot quote me where I've said anything of the sort. Nowhere did I make such a claim, or even imply it. I'm not even interested in talking to you about your personal beliefs about whether magic is good in those games. I am simply discussing how magic is *framed* as good in those games and explaining why that is. The only time I have made reference to you personally (and not a rhetorical "you" in the sense that it is actually saying "One seeks out materia and one becomes stronger by obtaining it") is where I said that you don't understand. It's impossible to talk about the basics of media criticism with someone who struggles with reading comprehension. I'm done holding your hand through this.
I enjoyed the perspective on magic in this video. It's as though magic is a sort of mystical essence, harnessed through religiosity and mysticism; corrupting brash wielders(the inclination for sorceress' potential to become sinister), or channeled through mythical/religious totems(GF's), at some cost to the user; science works to synthesize it, with similar detriment. This brings to mind the fact that most(if not all] final fantasy final bosses attain godhead, but in a paradoxically negative connotation. Its not to say that magic is good or bad, but a natural life force that can be wielded based on an individual's principles. Not too disimiliar from the Super Soldier serum(also a good figuritive comparison to the hormone Testosterone) and its effects on Captain America and Red Skull.
Most people think magic is weak in this game but it is not. Double and/or triple casting magic with a high mag stat while hitting weaknesses is very strong. 29,997 damage with trip Demi against foes weak to gravity. 22 thousand damage to Snow Lions with trip Firaga. 22,000 multi target damage with Ultima! 43,000 damage with triple Meteor. The list goes on. Also in plot the para magic that SeeD or junctioned people in general I think is lore wise better than conventional weapons but still not sorceress level.
@@forevergogo That's also a good strat. I just cannot see myself enjoying playing the game like that. I like to use attack, magic, commands, summons and limits to add variety. Plus I usually have so much extra magic refine items that my junctions can be replaced after each magic usage anyways.
I’ve never quite connected with FF8 the way I did with FF6. For me, FF6 was on another level-I enjoyed it so much that even the original FF7 didn’t capture the same magic. I guess FF6 just set the bar really high for me.
@JabamiLain yep, 9 took some refined taste. It's not easy to connect with queen brahne ... Kefka is the best story villain that makes Sephiroth look like a fanboy.
I feel like to a similar extent (but not the same of course), ff14 does something like this but in reverse with technology. we start off thinking of it as something primarily used by our enemy but later we get told they only even started using it this way because they were basically being pushed around by magic using countries and got fed up with it. I'm sure it's far more nuanced than that, it's been a while since I've played those story beats.
While not my fav game (which is 6), 8 is a pure masterpiece, I even find it superior to 7 (my favs are 6,8,4,7), everything about it is way deeper than an average gamer can imagine on a first playthrough. I've played this game for decades and it still surprises me to this day, on it and 6 manages to get so deep in lore. Once I've even dreamed about it, like I was studying in a garden like institution, man I love the lore of this game so much.
let's see.. magic comes at the cost of the existence of another world in ff3, 4, 5, and 9. magic comes at the cost of esper lives in ff6.. magic causes mako poisoning in ff7. it probably has something to do with memoria in ff9 and sin in ff10 if the use of guardian forces in ff8 causing memory loss is anything to go by. i'd say it's almost consistently portrayed as evil in the entire series.
I would argue that Magic isn’t a positive force in FF6. We are literally told in the opening scene that it destroyed the world once before. Magic is a force used by the empire for enslavement and control, and the only reason the Returners use it is because they have no other choice. The people in the world are terrified of it. Magic even disappears by the end of the game, due to its destructive power. It’s just as negative of a concept in 6 as it is in 8.
I found it a little bit confusing tbh...like we can Junction magic to all the party members and also draw magic xD So the concept of sorceresses didnt really stand out to me?
I think realistically speaking, this is how magic would really work in real life. Much like science, magic's goal is to control and manipulate. Do you think that's how magic is gonna work in Unreality on "Kingdom Hearts" ? Maybe that's what Sora's Squall like hairstyle predicts.
I like your take on this and it isn't really something I have considered. That said, I believe magic in the game to be a natural force. It isn't so much that magic is evil as it is the intentions of those using the magic. Of the sorceresses we fight in the game only one was not acting of their own volition against the party. The rest sought to use their magic to gain control of the world or punish those that ostracized and locked them away. Those intentions are tied to negative emotions and give rise to the harm that is brought against others. I don't think the magic itself is inherently evil though.
FF8 feels like something of a progression of the classic "humans aren't responsible with great power" theme, starting from FF4. In FF4, regular humans were taught magic, but ultimately weren't responsible with it. However, this was just de-centralized throughout its society. In FF6, they're rapidly industrializing around it in a way that required exploitation and genocide of whole groups of people. In FF7, it's a post-industrial world like contemporary times, where everyone's aware to some degree that the magic upon which their lives are based is killing the planet, but they're already dependent on it, so they largely look the other way while living their lives. Finally, FF8 skips to the end, and concentrates the bulk of that power into a single tyrannical individual (though tbf, WoR Kefka is similar in that respect).
Magic is evil in FF8 then why is was missing 1 element that correspond to evil and that is Shadow (which debuted in FF9). Also in previous installment like FF7 is missing Meteor and Holy (but have Alexander!?). And then Aether (which debuted in FF16), the world of final fantasy is really strange 😅.
I always believed VIII was more deserving of a VII-style remake. Let's put it like this, if VII is written so perfectly, why not just remaster it like VIII? Whereas if VIII is an almost-masterpiece, why not extrapolate it to what could have been?
Draw for the win. But I agree. I think MP should have been a stat (that you can junction like everything else), and "stocking" magic instead gained you experience in that magic to rank it up.
Sorry you lost me instantly for showing that ff7 crap remake. Nothing annoys me more than seeing that worthless side quest of a game that is being stretched into a trilogy.
No magic is the same in ff8 lol... Ouff go back and play the games , ff8 magic makes you smarter not dumber lol its the summon that makes you forget.... You make no sence lol
It’s far from the worst RPG. Go look at some of the ones from the Mega Drive or NES days, or heck, even Secret of the Stars by Tecmo. It may not be the best game out there, but it’s far from the worst.
If ya look into hyne the physical aspect seems to be omega weapon where as the magical is the sorceresses 😂 They need to remake this and delve into hyne but also make a war torn world actually big and full and not so empty
The channel Japanese Games Are Masterpieces does an interesting deep dive into the backstory with some analysis about the Hyne/Weapon connection. It's worth watching.
An unexpected recommendation, and enjoyable to watch; I've never played the game, but these are interesting thoughts! (Not ashamed the thumbnail got me. 🪴)
It’s so nice to find a youtuber who’s so knowledgeable and passionate about VIII. It really doesn’t get the respect it deserves and I like that you actually get the nuance behind the writing.
Writing stories about a couple with no chemistry and giving them chosen one plot lines(Rinoa and Squall) isnt nuanced...not even slightly.
YES ! MORE FANS !
I'm confused on the premise of your whole statement, theres literally thousands of youtubers who know about ff8 better than I do and I beat the game. Castle at the end didnt slow me down because of all the ff8 youtubers who made videos on ff8 since youtubes been up and running. So either you dont know how to use a search bar so you only watch what youtube suggests or you just said that so you can flirt with someone you dont know and will never meet and might never read your comment...which would be weird to say it nicely
@@jamesmeppler6375 I don't personally find FF8 to be all that underrated, I think personally that the legacy of the game is a pretty fairly accurate summation of the game it reflects. That said, this is a bizarre reaction to somebody's comment regardless of how accurate the comment reflects reality. There's no need to be so adversarial.
@@jamesmeppler6375 Who hurt you?
One reason i love VIII the most. There is alot of layers to the entire story. Some things i wish we could of delved further in.
I had never thought about the connection between magic and the moon. I always saw magic in 8 as an aspect of the natural world. The existence of draw points and extracting magic from stones you can get gave me the impression that humanity was the odd one out for not having magic.
Have you considered... moon stones
I highly reccomend @Orion85's video about the moon in final fantasy 8!! ua-cam.com/video/BtLqfY1tteM/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Orion85
@GameDove Small creators giving shout-outs to other small creators, you love to see it folks!
Loved your video and views on magic and technology. Thank you :)
FF8 lore is severely underrated and much less discussed as much as the other FF games.
And is quite expansive.. for example, the GF research done at the deep sea research centre aka Battleship Island.
You know what seems pretty interesting, is that this insight pairs very nicely with your observation about Cid and his plans as well as why Rinoa and Squall are not picking up the torch that their parents left behind. In the case of Laguna, Cid, and Julia, those characters are proposing for our protagonists a life determined by a less romantic choice. They are proposing a life determined by planning and merely the intellect. Meanwhile, Squall leaps out into space without any plan at all. Squall and Rinoa, by choosing romance, are choosing a side of magic rather than mere technology.
@@benabaxter that scene sold their romance for me. The other "FF" romance to touch me like this was the "FF X" one.
The legend of Hyne, a Hein in the past.
I seed what you did there.
The legend of Hyne, Heins Awakening
Hyne 2: The Adventure of Hein
The legend of Hyne, Skyward Gunblade
The legend of Hyne, A Hein Between Worlds
Appreciate all these videos you've done for FF8. It's like top 3 or 4 in the series for me, and I don't know why I feel that way, but your deep dives help put things into words for me.
PuPu certainly has his own opinion on Malboros. Bold assertion, I'll give the little guy that.
@@KrusherMike You know FuzzFinger (Final Fantasy tutorials channel) covered the PuPu quest.
I didn't watch it to learn about the quest - I already knew the whole thing. I watched it to listen to a guy with a funny British accent to see how many times he would say the word PuPu.
Admittedly, I'll never win an award for the person who demonstrates the most maturity but that's fine with me because the simple joy that video brought me was worth it.
Hi,
I just discovered you today and wanted to say: please keep doing what you're doing. That's some quality content right there, I like your specific points of views. And you presented them really well. *Chef's kiss* well done! :D
thank you so much, i really appreciate it!!
Thank you for this interesting and knowledgeable video, from one FF8 fan to another :)
Really enjoying your FFVIII videos ❤
Loved it! Never really saw this flip the game made about magic and science, but it is really an interesting take that I wonder if even the ones created the storie were conscious of? Maybe because of the need to go away as far as possible from the latest entries, this is what they landed on.
To add to this, the predecessor civilization in FF8, the Centra, developed a lot of the technology seen in the game (arguably the majority of it.)
So rather than the ancients being somehow imbued with mystical, magic powers instead in FF8 the ancients were a technologically advanced society.
Kinda cool, thematically.
@@jessl1934I think realistically speaking, this is how magic would really work in real life. Much like science, magic's goal is to control and manipulate.
Do you think that's how magic is gonna work in Unreality on "Kingdom Hearts" ? Maybe that's what Sora's Squall like hairstyle predicts.
@@jessl1934 such a great point!!
Excellent points :O This was a very cool point of view. Made one of my favorite FFs even better ^^
Why is this game so hated ? It was one of my favorites ! Also, not to sound blasphemous, but I connected with it more easily than with "FF 9".
Oh it gets weirder than that. Magic in the world of FF8 comes from a godlike being named Hyne and a war he had with humanity, where he removed his own skin to give people magic, because they wanted it and he tricked them as his skin didn't have magic, but real magic does manifest in women, the sorceresses, a succession of witches.
Final Fantasy VIII has so much backstory but it never goes out of its way to tell you more than his required to understand the struggles of the characters. If you know where to look it gets nuts. Or you can watch the complete unabridged timeline over on Final Fantasy Union.
I first found your videos while I was working on my ff8 retrospective and I've been following you since then. I love your work!
Interesting take I haven’t heard before. There’s a lot of negative that comes with being connected to the internet that I didn’t think would happen in 1999 looking at walkthroughs on gamefaqs for this game.
Seeing new concepts (to me) on a game 25 years old that everyone I know either didn’t play or didn’t like/appreciate is one of the things that reminds me why the internet can be so great. Connecting ideas to people across the world.
The person that has something negative to say about this comment will bring me back to the reality of the bad parts of the internet again 😂
I had not really considered the good and evil magic and technology split in the FF games before, but I also recently realized that the Garleans in FFXIV are incapable of using magic. I always thought they were more technology focused because that's just how they are or something, I never realized there was an explicit dichotomy there, and one that matches this pattern. (Seeing as my first FF game was FFV, where the antagonist is also magical, I think I can be forgiven, haha)
the basis theme of FF7 is 'light in the dark'; while FF8 is 'dark in the light'.
- i heard from somewhere in the interview. so i guess it's intentional.
Thank you for this. I like your style. Keep on keeping on!
If they made a sequel, it could be about expelling Hyne from Rinoa & any other sorceress' remaining and defeating this god of magic.
We literally do that in FF8. That's why they needed Time Compression to meet Ultimecia. That's also why Rinoa was no longer able to be possessed anymore. The power is her own now. By having Ultimecia send her powers into the past rather than the future means she'll be the last evil sorceress.
@@tylercafe1260 unless the paradox theory comes true. It has been confirmed otherwise, but writers are known for changing their mind, sometimes.
I love how 8 holds both magic and technology in a sort of dialectic tension.
They're much less interested in moralizing here and show off how both are used for immense good and for great harm.
The whole setting feels oddly post-apocalyptic. But we're a few centuries down the road from the apocalypse and things are starting to pick back up. And then bam, the things which are hinted at as having destroyed the world before are front and center again.
But instead of some gritty Fist of the Northstar type hero out for revenge and justice. We get Squall, an awkward kid caught up in a love story. So good. Surprisingly subversive to the rest of the series. Certainly to the later entries which cannot seem to abide the idea that the player come to their own conclusions about some things.
The game info is conflicting but it's stated that the Centra were destroyed by the previous Lunar Cry that occurred 80 years prior to the time the story is set in, although in the Lunar Base a character states that the Centra were destroyed "over a hundred years ago".
Whichever is the case, and I'm more likely to believe the 80 years claim, it happened more or less within living memory in-game.
@@jessl1934 I'm not really talking about that.
Brilliant analysis as always! Somehow I'm totally unsurprised that the magic as a feminine tool is seen as a negative in VIII (and that it's a kind and nurturing thing in other games)... I can't help but feel that even though para-magic is a "good" tool, it's only by not being easy to access (need a GF, with all the wrongs that go with that) that the concept of magic hasn't changed the way it's perceived. You know, like teaching and nursing professions being devalued the more women take them up! (hard stare into the camera)
I never considered the opposition to magic being science, though - but it totally makes sense! Can't believe I never thought of that before.
One question that I'd love to pick your brains over is whether or not you think the legend of Hyne is true. All we get is stories withought it ever being a focus - you gotta go digging for that! And as a story told to children (and iirc by that old guy in Timber as well), it certainly smacks of "well, we needed an explanation and could well have made something up" instead of "a potentially definite truth" to me.
(They should've called the moon Hyne.)
-Mol
Wait, magic is feminine and you can only access magic with a GF. I wonder if they thought of the abbreviation as synonymous with a girlfriend at the time, even though as far as I know, the popularization of that abbreviation was much later.
Mol I'm convinced you and I are part of the same hivemind because i had the EXACT same thoughts!!!
I personally think, like a lot of history, the legend of Hyne is a made up story that has a hint of truth. In the FF8 Ultimania, there's an extra story called 'A Day of Instruction at Garden' where an instructor in Balamb Garden teaches a class about the history of sorceresses and refers to hyne being the creator of sorceresses as a 'theory' that scholars created combining 'folklore, legends and known facts'. So I totally agree, i definitely dont think its a definite truth!
I loved this game as a kid. Never had a clue what was going on though. Thank you for your very well done videos explaining them.
I think realistically speaking, this is how magic would really work in real life. Much like science, magic's goal is to control and manipulate.
Do you think that's how magic is gonna work in Unreality on "Kingdom Hearts" ? Maybe that's what Sora's Squall like hairstyle predicts.
The goal of science is knowledge, not control or manipulation. Knowledge can be used for good or evil, but knowledge itself is neutral.
@@Iohannis42 you speak of control and manipulation as bad things, but that's not how I see them. They're artificial concepts, but they are often the encouragement for the pursuit of knowledge, which makes them appealing in my opinion, as well as neutral as knowledge itself.
So magic IS much like science. And amidst that evil, there could be some good, for it can have its scientific approach. The brain, even memory, is a domain of science too.
Final Fantasy 16 seems to share a lot of these ideas too!
I always pronounced "Hyne" as "High-knee" and imagined him as the Red Guy from Cow and Chicken.
For real though, I love VIII. I love how much love shines through what was ultimately a botched project because of Spirits Within. I picked it up again recently and really noticed and appreciate how much life is in the animations. The graphics aren't great, but the animations make FFX look stiff as boards.
I would love a prequel a hundred years ago.
I had to look it up and the Japanese version is ハイン so it would be pronounced Hain.
Either way, this video is great! When I saw the title, I was expecting how it works differently in a gameplay aspect. I never even considered the story aspect.
Liked and subscribed.
Thank you! I really should look up the Japanese version before i start pronouncing things...
I think this is why the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory doesn’t really work for me. Given everything we know about Rinoa, why would you assume that she would turn evil and do everything that caused the events of the game? Does becoming a Sorceress automatically shift your entire personality and make you evil? Does magic activate something in your brain like a sleeper agent? Or is the whole plot of the game deal with taking responsibility with power you’re given, be that magic or technology?
I can see her losing everyone she loves and having the world hate you be a major influence in turning her "evil."
I like the theory but don't believe in it either. I just wanted to provide the counter point that without the support of love ones and being treated as 'evil' will make nearly any of us 'evil'.
I'm actually on thee other side of this I think it makes rinoa = ultimecia better, because a sorceress needs a knight there by their side to make them remember who they are and not get lost in their powers but with squall being her knight and possibly dying in one timeline the grief and lost of not having him there could make her become more twisted and villainess not bc it's her nature but bc of the circumstances.
and her desire to be with him again, allows her to manipulate time itself to make another timeline where it can be possible.
But bc he's still not her knight but her younger versions knight she still doesn't remember him until it's too late and he defeats her and in this timeline she still loses him but another version of her gets too have the happy ending and that makes it so tragic but compelling and better.
The persecution theory is much more compelling to me.
@@NaerysTargaryen26kinda like Naminé, and her need for Riku. That's why in the "Sea-Change of Fate" fic, even though she has Roxas and Xion by her side, Xehanort still gains more power over her the more fearful she grows of Kairi, the sadder she grows at what she has to do to Roxas and Xion, and the angrier she gets at having to spend time with Axel.
Because she doesn't have Riku by her side. Kairi is awake too, and both her and Riku are busy working out their issues. He spends more time with her.
It's just as well. Naminé should rely on herself more. And if she does need a knight, they should have no associations to anyone remotely close to DiZ. What a shame she can not spend as much time as Zexion as she'd like, or that Laexeaus is unavalaible because of Castle Oblivion. They are the adults she needs in her life.
@@NaerysTargaryen26 That would also draw a parallel with Laguna and Julia. They loved each other but ended up apart but in a way their kids ended up together as a sort of "another version of them gets to have the happy ending". I have seen this motif in an unrelated manga and I wonder if they all draw from the same source, maybe some classic Japanese literature.
2:21 Thank you for this. You could have shrugged it off and went on to the next thing but instead you went back and addressed it. That's true integrity.
i dont think there is a single person on the planet that doesnt pronounce (pre voice acting) ff names in their own unique way. theyre all so ambiguous and you could literally put the accent wherever you want
The voiceover with the shot at 2:09 - is an immactulate bit of editing.
Magic being at the root of evil in VIII is not matched to it being good in VI and VII. Meteor was not on anyone's side, and the War of the Magi nearly destroyed the world.
@@contaru In FF7, what stops meteor?
In FF there is almost always shades of gray. "Good" things get twisted to achieve bad ends, bad guys turn good.
In FF7, mako is framed as being an inherently good thing. It is where all life comes from and it sustains the planet itself. There is no critical perspective on mako energy itself. Still, it fuels reactors and global wars, and it is used for horrific human experimentation. But to say that mako is not framed as being inherently benign, if not outright good, because some people used it to do bad things is tantamount to saying hammers are bad because one time a hammer was used as a murder weapon. People would think you are nuts if you made a claim like that.
Magic in FF7 was good in the sense that it could help people. How people chose to use that help is a matter of agency and a discussion on whether people are themselves good or not.
Jenova is bad in FF7 in the sense that she was actively harmful to people and the planet. She was used in a variety of ways, and in some ways she unintentionally helped to save the planet. Yet she is framed as inherently bad.
FF8 takes a critical view of magic and diegetically there is a critical narrative of magic itself. This means that magic has a negative framing - magic comes from evil forces trying to destroy the world, magic actively harms the people who use it. In FF8, magic is poisonous.
It's not about tallying up the number of good things something achieves in the story vs the bad things and arriving at the sum to determine good-ness or bad-ness, it's about the discourse in the story and how it frames the thing itself.
@@jessl1934 Meteor was a spell that only functions to destroy planets. There was no gray there. Nothing was twisted in the way it was used. No one could have done a good thing by casting it. If the story was framing magic is inherently good, there would be no room for black materia.
Mako itself was essential to the survival of the planet and everything on it, true, but it was also poisonous in high concentrations and was known to cause mutations in plants and animals exposed to it in entirely natural settings regardless of anyone's will. The idea that either mako or magic as a whole was benign in VII is a hallucination.
No hammer destroys planets as a base function, nor will a room full of them poison anyone just by existing.
@contaru "If the story was framing materia as good, there would be no room for black materia"
You aren't understanding. How does FF8 frame guns? As neutral. How does FF8 frame cars? A neutral. Neither are viewed critically, neither are examined or questioned. Nobody wrestles with whether or not they should be used. Yet they are very clearly used for militarism, imperialism, and hegemony in FF8.
In FF7, you seek materia. You get stronger by finding materia. Nobody questions what it means for the soul energy that becomes crystallized in materia or if that is inherently bad. The game doesn't even discuss why the black materia exists or if some materia is inherently evil, so we don't know its origin or its purpose. The closest we get to a critical voice within the narrative is Aerith saying her white materia is special because it's useless and it does nothing.
"Framing" in media criticism is not whether something does good or bad and, for the second time now, it's not the end result of calculating up the times it was good vs bad in the story. Framing is how something is viewed, is related to, and discussed within the story.
Jenova is framed as inherently evil. The music, the responses to characters seeing her, the depiction of her, the discussions of her. Nobody asks about her own internal motives or if she was doing something necessary for her own survival. Nobody asks if she was driven mad and was acting upon this madness. She is framed as evil.
It's not about how many good or bad things she does in the game.
The chocobo farmer is dealt with as inherently good, he is framed as good. Nobody asks if chocobos are happy being penned up and even put in a tiny stable barely large enough to stand up in, perhaps for the entire game. There is no concern for animal rights in the game and whether the chocobo industry is ethical. It is framed as good. Put a large bird like an ostrich in a pen the size of a chocobo stable and you'd be at risk of animal abuse charges. But the framing doesn't care.
@@jessl1934 You're the one not understanding, carrying away with the assumption that I think magic in VI and VII is bad rather than good. I said that it isn't good. That's not the same as saying it's bad.
@contaru You absolutely cannot quote me where I've said anything of the sort. Nowhere did I make such a claim, or even imply it.
I'm not even interested in talking to you about your personal beliefs about whether magic is good in those games.
I am simply discussing how magic is *framed* as good in those games and explaining why that is.
The only time I have made reference to you personally (and not a rhetorical "you" in the sense that it is actually saying "One seeks out materia and one becomes stronger by obtaining it") is where I said that you don't understand.
It's impossible to talk about the basics of media criticism with someone who struggles with reading comprehension. I'm done holding your hand through this.
I enjoyed the perspective on magic in this video. It's as though magic is a sort of mystical essence, harnessed through religiosity and mysticism; corrupting brash wielders(the inclination for sorceress' potential to become sinister), or channeled through mythical/religious totems(GF's), at some cost to the user; science works to synthesize it, with similar detriment.
This brings to mind the fact that most(if not all] final fantasy final bosses attain godhead, but in a paradoxically negative connotation.
Its not to say that magic is good or bad, but a natural life force that can be wielded based on an individual's principles. Not too disimiliar from the Super Soldier serum(also a good figuritive comparison to the hormone Testosterone) and its effects on Captain America and Red Skull.
ALso in final fantasy x technology is't bad if you think
...For some reason, this is helping me WANT to try "Final Fantasy 16".
Most people think magic is weak in this game but it is not. Double and/or triple casting magic with a high mag stat while hitting weaknesses is very strong.
29,997 damage with trip Demi against foes weak to gravity.
22 thousand damage to Snow Lions with trip Firaga.
22,000 multi target damage with Ultima!
43,000 damage with triple Meteor.
The list goes on.
Also in plot the para magic that SeeD or junctioned people in general I think is lore wise better than conventional weapons but still not sorceress level.
Eh, I skip magic for perfect junctions, and just keep 1 low hp person to spam limits.
@@forevergogo That's also a good strat. I just cannot see myself enjoying playing the game like that. I like to use attack, magic, commands, summons and limits to add variety. Plus I usually have so much extra magic refine items that my junctions can be replaced after each magic usage anyways.
I’ve never quite connected with FF8 the way I did with FF6. For me, FF6 was on another level-I enjoyed it so much that even the original FF7 didn’t capture the same magic. I guess FF6 just set the bar really high for me.
I understand how you feel. Though im my case, it was 6, 7 and 8 that set the bar for me, keeping me from connecting to 9.
@JabamiLain yep, 9 took some refined taste. It's not easy to connect with queen brahne ... Kefka is the best story villain that makes Sephiroth look like a fanboy.
this was really interesting. you're pretty clever. good watch, thanks.
So Hyne is this great calamity that hides in the bodies of peoples loved ones after leaving the moon and descending from the sky? Interesting.
Science is about understanding the natural world. Magic is the chaotic use of nature without understanding.
I wouldn't say without understanding. There's a certain strategy, even to chaos, to make the most use of it.
I feel like to a similar extent (but not the same of course), ff14 does something like this but in reverse with technology. we start off thinking of it as something primarily used by our enemy but later we get told they only even started using it this way because they were basically being pushed around by magic using countries and got fed up with it.
I'm sure it's far more nuanced than that, it's been a while since I've played those story beats.
Great video. Man I hope VIII gets remade like VII is. Also VI.
While not my fav game (which is 6), 8 is a pure masterpiece, I even find it superior to 7 (my favs are 6,8,4,7), everything about it is way deeper than an average gamer can imagine on a first playthrough.
I've played this game for decades and it still surprises me to this day, on it and 6 manages to get so deep in lore.
Once I've even dreamed about it, like I was studying in a garden like institution, man I love the lore of this game so much.
If you've not watched already, Final Fantasy Union did a 4 part deep dive series into the FF8 lore - I REALLY recommend watching it
Final fantasy 8 getting some love and I'm 100% for it
Wish FF8 had more development time. It was my favorite FF.
Favourite new channel.
let's see.. magic comes at the cost of the existence of another world in ff3, 4, 5, and 9. magic comes at the cost of esper lives in ff6.. magic causes mako poisoning in ff7. it probably has something to do with memoria in ff9 and sin in ff10 if the use of guardian forces in ff8 causing memory loss is anything to go by. i'd say it's almost consistently portrayed as evil in the entire series.
Cool take, might be more there
I would argue that Magic isn’t a positive force in FF6. We are literally told in the opening scene that it destroyed the world once before. Magic is a force used by the empire for enslavement and control, and the only reason the Returners use it is because they have no other choice. The people in the world are terrified of it. Magic even disappears by the end of the game, due to its destructive power. It’s just as negative of a concept in 6 as it is in 8.
The difference, is that magic isn't inherently corrupting like in 8. It only looks that way, because humans attacked for power hunger and fear.
Subscribed ❤
I found it a little bit confusing tbh...like we can Junction magic to all the party members and also draw magic xD
So the concept of sorceresses didnt really stand out to me?
I think realistically speaking, this is how magic would really work in real life. Much like science, magic's goal is to control and manipulate.
Do you think that's how magic is gonna work in Unreality on "Kingdom Hearts" ? Maybe that's what Sora's Squall like hairstyle predicts.
Never though about that. I really like your videos, Is similar to what i think when i'm bored or asleep. But my game Is 9 so... A ognuno il suo 😊
Naminé from "Kingdom Hearts" was clearly based after the Sorceress' concept. Further proof of how underused non-Sora characters really are.
Thanks!
Oh my gosh, thank you very much, that is so kind!!
w breakdown w game dove
I like your take on this and it isn't really something I have considered. That said, I believe magic in the game to be a natural force. It isn't so much that magic is evil as it is the intentions of those using the magic. Of the sorceresses we fight in the game only one was not acting of their own volition against the party. The rest sought to use their magic to gain control of the world or punish those that ostracized and locked them away. Those intentions are tied to negative emotions and give rise to the harm that is brought against others. I don't think the magic itself is inherently evil though.
Great video on FF lore
FF8 feels like something of a progression of the classic "humans aren't responsible with great power" theme, starting from FF4. In FF4, regular humans were taught magic, but ultimately weren't responsible with it. However, this was just de-centralized throughout its society. In FF6, they're rapidly industrializing around it in a way that required exploitation and genocide of whole groups of people. In FF7, it's a post-industrial world like contemporary times, where everyone's aware to some degree that the magic upon which their lives are based is killing the planet, but they're already dependent on it, so they largely look the other way while living their lives. Finally, FF8 skips to the end, and concentrates the bulk of that power into a single tyrannical individual (though tbf, WoR Kefka is similar in that respect).
Which is maybe appropriate for the FF that highlighted a romance and seemed to focus a bit more on individualism and self-actualization.
2:20 better voice IMO
Magic is evil in FF8 then why is was missing 1 element that correspond to evil and that is Shadow (which debuted in FF9). Also in previous installment like FF7 is missing Meteor and Holy (but have Alexander!?). And then Aether (which debuted in FF16), the world of final fantasy is really strange 😅.
banger vid!
I always believed VIII was more deserving of a VII-style remake.
Let's put it like this, if VII is written so perfectly, why not just remaster it like VIII? Whereas if VIII is an almost-masterpiece, why not extrapolate it to what could have been?
Agreed, 100% !
Is that why, Mechanically, Magic sucked and made you not want to use it? KINDA makes sense but it was the worst aspect of combat imo.
Draw for the win.
But I agree. I think MP should have been a stat (that you can junction like everything else), and "stocking" magic instead gained you experience in that magic to rank it up.
say that to my Triple Cast Ultima's face!
Humildad
Sorry you lost me instantly for showing that ff7 crap remake. Nothing annoys me more than seeing that worthless side quest of a game that is being stretched into a trilogy.
You clearly dont understad ff8 lol you need to go play disc one you did not understand
I agree with FFVIII magic is bad juju
No magic is the same in ff8 lol... Ouff go back and play the games , ff8 magic makes you smarter not dumber lol its the summon that makes you forget.... You make no sence lol
sadly ff8 was the absolute worst ff game to date. if not the worst jrpg to date.....13 almost caught up......almost
It’s far from the worst RPG. Go look at some of the ones from the Mega Drive or NES days, or heck, even Secret of the Stars by Tecmo. It may not be the best game out there, but it’s far from the worst.
If ya look into hyne the physical aspect seems to be omega weapon where as the magical is the sorceresses 😂
They need to remake this and delve into hyne but also make a war torn world actually big and full and not so empty
The channel Japanese Games Are Masterpieces does an interesting deep dive into the backstory with some analysis about the Hyne/Weapon connection. It's worth watching.
An unexpected recommendation, and enjoyable to watch; I've never played the game, but these are interesting thoughts! (Not ashamed the thumbnail got me. 🪴)