Porsche 911 GT3 v GT4 RS v GT3 RS - Track Battle ft. NEW Nankang CR-S
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Learn more about the new Nankang CR-S, here: www.nankang.eu/
An empty track, five driver-oriented machines, 40 fresh tires and a racing driver ready to give it ALL! Thanks to our friends at Nankang, and with Track-Speed providing the amazing cars and the full technical support, we got to produce one of the coolest videos we've ever uploaded in this channel!
In part two we compare some of the finest models in Porsche's recent history. We start where we stopped in the last video, with the 992 GT3, the first Porsche to feature double-wishbones in the front axle, the we pit it agaist the ultimate Cayman, that features that same crazy 4.0 NA GT-department powerplant but... in the right place(!) and we finish everything off with the old but still.. gold(?) 991.1 GT3 RS. Which Porsche is the faster Porsche?!
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00:00 Intro
00:26 Our Relationship with Nankang
01:38 Collecting Data with Track-Speed
02:26 Porsche 911 GT3 (992)
04:32 Porsche Cayman GT4 RS (982)
15:40 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991.1)
19:32 Our Final Thoughts - Авто та транспорт
Great drive, great camera and mic placements, great editing, good data, all top-notch. Congrats and thanks for the video!
Thank you for the kind words!
Could you please share your setups for these cars?
Don't have a ton of reference points but I have a few. Been driving the CR1's the last two years. My last set I bought just before the CRS came to the US. I have absolutely loved them at autocross and on track in my procharged c5z. Phenomenal tires and I will absolutely be considering them for my next car as well!
Really good tires!
I'm biased but the Cayman looked like it was easier to drive fast, less hand motions and far smoother. Engine is in the "right" place like my 987.1.
It was more balanced than the 911s. I do believe you can set-up a 911 to be as balanced or close but a mid-engined car has it's inherent advantages for sure!
I've only put 1 set of CR-S on my GT3 so far (see my vid) but extremely impressed with how well rounded it is. Perfect trackday tire. It's fast, lasts pretty long, keeps its performance during wear and heat cycling, works pretty well in rain (!) great steering response, quiet on the street. Downsides: heavy construction hurts acceleration a tiny bit. Yes a Cup 2R is faster but you need 5 sets of those to drive as many laps on track as the Nankang.
Great Video, if you are using 305/20 rear what modification did you do on the 4RS, toe links? camber plates? also what alignment setup did you have on the 4RS, thank you and keep it up.
Amazing video guys!!!! Keep up the excellent work 👌 !!!!!
Amazing performance from the 2016 gt3rs!
I did not expect it either!
Good and honest review. Great drive skills!
Thanks Richard!
Very excited about the Nankang CRS, can't wait to run them on track next week!
You will not be disappointed
Are all the cars in stock form?
If they are modified, can you please specify what are the modifications done for each car.
Would be interested to hear it too.
But from what I can see: GT3 + GT4 RS have brake upgrades (PFC discs and most likely pads as well), the 991 GT3 RS has OZ Ultraleggera (which are slightly heavier than the stock wheels).
I assume all 3 have track-optimized alignments?
But a great video!
Just found your channel guys. Love the format. New sub 👍
thanks!
Another awesome video.
Looking forward to driving the Serres circuit with the CRS to compare it with AR1s and A052s.
Thansk and let us know how it goes!
Another amazing episode. Would love to know how it handle when it's raining.
We will find out sooner or later! Thanks for the kind words!
I second this. Wet performance of all relevant tires would be interesting.
I run the CR-S on my Camaro SS 1LE and am really impressed with them. Amazing episode!
Good tire and great car! Nice choices :)
Awesome again!!
thanks! :)
Never seen these cars tested on the same tire as they should be. Well done guys!
Surprised the 4RS isn’t a bit slower. I’ve driven both and expected to see 0.5-1 second delta especially vs a PDK 992. Very nice to see and the 4RS will take wider tires with minor mods so there is a bit more left for it to go faster.
I also expected the 992 to blow everything out of the water and yet... here we are! The potential is definitely there to be at the same level or maybe a bit quicker than the 991RS but by no mean is the 992 on a different level. To chop 1 second of a 1:21 is not a small step. Possible, but any more than that and I'm not so sure.
Which sizes did you put for the 4RS? I think they only have 305 and not sure if it was not tight in the rear
The 992 GT3 lap looked compromised due to setup, i can tell from the in-car video. My 991.2 GT2RS MR goes 2.5 seconds faster a lap due to setup especially on track with slow and medium speed corners. I really think the 992 GT3 will go 1:20s on that track with a proper setup. Great video by the way.
have you just fitted 255/305 without any other suspension modifications? need clarity/transparency on this one guys :)
It would be cool to do comparison between CR-S and all the other TW200 tires though a lot of data is out there already. Great driving again some really solid lap times.
Of course it would be great, we will try to do something like that
What tire size on the 4RS as CRS does not come 295 fronts
Keep on guys 👊
Not surprised the GT4RS beat the regular GT3.
Excellent video guys.
1. How does the new CRS compare to the Bridgestone RE71 RS in terms of pricing, peak laptime and longevity?
2. What rear tyre size was used on the 991.1 GT3RS? Was it the stock 21inch size or was it 20 inch?
3. You mentioned the snap oversteer issue with the 991.1 GT3RS. What set up tips can you recommend to eliminate or at least reduce this trait? I have experienced this same trait with the 991RS but strangely i have never felt it on the several different 991 GT3 non-RS that i have driven on track.
Thanks for your input. Look forward to more content.
1. we could not compare them back to back so I do not have the data points to compare. Longevity, for the moment I also have no information since we did just a few laps. Hopefully we can have more tests in the future
2. Stock sizes
3. Difficult to say, there is a lot of things that could be done. Sotening rear ARB or lowering the rear would be one of the first things.
We are running 17" AR1s on a k20 Toyota mr2 at the 6 hours of Serres and we do it with one new set! Do you think CRS will be able to do this and even be faster?
I have a 78 930 heavily modified engine ans suspension.I do not track it but i drive her in the canyons and tire are incredibly important with this car would you recommend these tires?
I would have no hesitation to put a set of CR-S and give them a try!
🎉
So how should I heat my CRS' on the first cycle? Gradually pick them up to 95% on the first few laps and let them cool down or send it 101% on the first session and then cool down?
To get the 1 lap peak (which is there) you need:
- outlap very slow, no weaving and just brake a lot (even power and brakes on at the same time to heat the rim)
- 1st flying lap 70%
- 2/3 flying lap flat out
@@GabrielePiana If I buy new CR-S, drove 1 hour to track... and then want fastest possible lap - max TimeAttack (Like you wrote in 2nd or 3rd lap - in GT3RS ), what COLD tire pressure would you recommend?
@@tonous83 Unfortunately, impossible to answer as it would heavily depend on the ambient temperature, track temperature, track layout (how much energy goes into the tires) and even the driver's skill level.
My best suggestion would be to have a target for hot pressure, let's say 1.85 all around. So you drive to the track with a relatively high pressure to avoid damage, let's say 2.0 for the road. Then I would bleed to 1.5 and go on track for a 5 laps session. Come back in the pits and see where I am, bleed everything to 1.85.
Let's say that you had 2.0 all around, meaning you bled 0.15 then you can sort of eyeball that you have to start 1.35 (assuming the same conditions apply) the next time you do this.
There is inevitably trial and error in this until you have a record of temperature and conditions you can go back to to set up your cold pressures.
Do not be afraid to split the pressures around either, in racing we have 4 different cold pressure on the 4 different tires to hit the targets when warm.
@@GabrielePiana Thanks a lot for the comprehensive answer ;-)
What is the CR-S size fitted on the 4RS, AFAIK they are not avail in 295
305/30, already asked;)
305s at the rear! The best would be to have 265s at the front and then adjust the setup for that.
Guys great vid. There is a comparison video from Tegiwa of different semislics ink. direzza, a052, ar1 and new cr-s. Blind test done on one car. The new Nankang is not that good as expected(
I will have a look at that! We did not do a back to back test so it's all down to my impressions on this day. It might be that other tires would have been faster. We will try to do a group test
Are you sure it was on the latest compound? I am asking because I read that some of the reviews on pre-final product where on sets that were using a different compound.
@@nviorres no, I am not sure but at least thats the first comparison using one car
Are the aero set for maximum front / rear on the 992 GT3? God push in the laps but the 992 should be the faster car on that tack i think.
We definitely agree that a 992 should be the faster but yet it was not and by quite a margin. Now, as said and as you can see with your own eyes, the 992 really was very unhappy at speed with a very lose rear that hurt the laptime a lot. Would it be faster if we fiddled with the setup (including aero settings which I do know know how they were set up)? For sure. Would it be faster than the 991? Not so sure, 1 second is a lot on this track. Even if it was faster, I feel it would be VERY marginal, which is very surprising to me. The same goes for the Cayman. The 4RS is not ultimate lap nor was the car set-up in any different way than any other. Interesting to see that laptimes are what they are.
@@GabrielePiana The Porsche 911 GT3 (992) delivers 50 kg of downforce on the front axle and 94 kg of downforce on the rear axle at 200 km/h in the low-downforce delivery configuration, which results in a total downforce of 144 kg. Could the car have been in delivery setting regarding aero?If set to max, it delivers 123 kg of downforce on the front axle and 238 kg on the rear axle at 200 km/h in the max downforce setting, resulting in a total downforce of 361 kg.
@@captainunknown it is most definitely possible. I do not know the settings, I can only presume that the Track-Speed staff did align the car and set it up as they would any other car you see in this video so it is an apple to apple comparison. I have no doubt the car can be made faster and I clearly state it in the video. Having driven the car and even looking back at the video it feels a lot more mechanical than aero unbalance but for sure more downforce would have helped. Caveat, the car MIGHT have already been in max aero setting, I really do not know.
following up on this, I checked some footage and it SEEMS like the 992 is running MAX rear wing attack, so maximum downforce.
@@GabrielePiana "Thanks, anyway, great movie from you guys. What surprises me is that most people go faster with the 992 GT3 versus the 4RS and the 991.1 RS. Sport Auto drives a 992 GT3 on Cup2R at GP Hockenheim in 1.45,8min versus the 4RS on Cup2R in 1.47,6min. I myself drive the 992 GT3 a lot and have also driven the 4RS and always find the 992 easier to drive and thus also faster. Regardless, the GT4 is more fun, haha it's also more fun to drive than the 992 GT3 RS which I've also driven. (My personal opinions anyway, the 4RS is more alive like an old school car which isn't the fastest but most fun :-)"
Epic..
thanks!
@00:08:47, can you please elaborate on the McPherson vs Double wishbone argument and how they compare on these two platforms? I understand that double wish can add dynamic camber, but are there any disadvantages compared to McPherson? Or is the GT4RS more of a marketing and street designed package compared to the GT3?
Is matter of feeling about the 2 suspension layout, as well matter of “performance endurance” the double wishbone is much better in both segments, in terms of times both can be fast but is for how long and how you achieve is the advantage of the double wishbone.
Oh man, Pandora's box much? A double wishbone is not BETTER than a McPherson. A GOOD double wishbone is better than an equally good McPherson with regards to camber control, adjustability, etc. The advantage of McPherson is space (system is more compact), weight (it's lighter), simplicity (less parts) and finally, cost (it's cheaper). A well tuned McPherson, on a street car, is just as good as any double wishbone will ever be given the standard operating windows, since you normally do not reach the travel where the arc of the suspension travel begins to cause camber loss. On the track, of course, this is more of a limiting factor that can be compensated with more static camber to the detriment of straight line braking. Now, word salad over. Is the double wishbone a gimmick? Yes if this is the metric you use to determine wether or not the 992 is better than a 991.2. No if you consider that having this in the road car allows porsche to be more flexible in motorsport application where a double wishbone is more beneficial (Cup cars). Is the 992 a better car than a 991 because it has double wishbone? No, if you did not know what system it had you would never feel any difference. Is a double wishbone THEORETICALLY better? Yes.
part 2 of the comment because maybe was not clear in my first reply. A well designed McPherson also ADDS dynamic camber while compressed, up to a point where it begins to lose camber due to the arc of suspension travel. A badly designed double wishbone can cause all sorts of problems, way worse than a McPherson. Obviously Porsche designed a good double wishbone (I hope, I do not have the schematics of the kinematics) but do not think that now its the best thing since sliced butter while before it was crap. It's a matter of package design. Plenty of succesful race cars are running McPherson.
@@GabrielePiana Thank you so much, this makes sense and surely, depending on many other factors, they are relatively equal until they are not.
I have a 2003 Toyota MR2 with McPherson's. It's my understanding that M3s, most Porsche, and of course, the GT/GR 86s have McPherson's. I think what I wanted to understand was, apart from how they function mechanically, is how some of the most amazing cars use McPherson and not wishbone suspension where tuning would be equal. If that makes sense, but I'm no engineer and I'm still trying to manage throttle control, roll moment, easing on and off brakes, weight transfer, slip angle, and so much more to overcome oversteer at higher rates of speed.
After 2 years and still with basic 1-way suspension, I struggle to find balance and master the fundamentals on track days, I think, because I didn't know how to overcome the fear of losing control. I know why I'm afraid to lose control though and it's because I don't fully 'feel' the car breaking loose and by the time I do, I'm not quick enough to recover. Another issue is recognizing when the car oversteers, I try to correct, but I incorrectly correct causing the car to flick the opposite direction. Lastly, my final 'fear' occurs when I'm rotating and I cannot tell between oversteer and slip angle.
If there's ANYTHING that you can share, apart from the usual, "you need more seat time," that would be greatly, greatly appreciated. In fact, if you're ever in Virginia and want to go for a drive, and you're no taller than 5'10", I would be more than happy for you to take a test drive!
Cheers and good night!
@@zzwk24 The reason cars are built with McPherson is, simply put, cost. It's actually an engineering marvel and much more clever than a double wishbone since it achieves 99% of the same performance with a third of the moving parts. It has it's negatives of course and it's not the ideal solution for motorsport application, although with limited roll and suspension travel even a McPherson can perform at very high level.
With regards to your feelings while driving, the one suggestion would be to get off the track and spend time doing car control training on skid pad, low friction surfaces (ice driving) and the like.
You absolutely DO NOT NEED seat time if you do not use it to specifically improve something as this just makes you even better at doing the wrong thing. I would invest some time tackling what you recognized being your issue (kudos for that lucidity by the way) and this is better done in a low speed low grip situation.
By the way, do a comparison between CUP2R/Trofeo RS and Nankin CRS. I personally found AR1s 3 seconds slower than CUP2R around a 2 minute lap which is impressive for such a cheap tire. It also holds performance longer than the CUP2Rs for sure. After 20 laps CUP2Rs drop 3 seconds from peak while the AR1s drops only 1.5 seconds.
I did this at Spa Francorchamps a few days ago and the difference for the 2R was -2.3s on the first push lap where it really sticks (2m30 lap). The CR-S is halfway worn now but actually feels faster than when it was brand new.
What about comparing CR-S with AR1´s? 🤔
Let's see if we can get it in the future
Oddly in pretty much any other test with these cars the 992 GT3 was the fastest of all on track.
it was not in our test, and by quite a margin. The 991 felt better but with the same underlying issue so even that car needs some work to be even faster. But the 992 has quite a gap to close, 1s over 3km is quite a lot
GT4 looks very stable
Yep, a lot more neutral than the 911s
What I hear you saying: cayman = more accessible, easier to drive at the limit, lower absolute limit than gt3. GT3: requires expert skill to extract 10/10ths, slightly faster than cayman
Hey! I'm not so sure I would use the word accessible. Within the conditions of this test, be it alignment, temperatures, conditions or whatever else the Cayman was more balanced hence it produced a better performance (relative to my personal expectations) while the 992 underperformed (again, relative to my expectations). YMMV.
The 992 had too much front end for the conditions, so there was laptime left on the table. The Cayman did not have new tires so there was laptime on the table. We eyeball it a bit and probably we are talking about a small difference between the cars, in Serres, with me driving, after both cars are dialled in but I cannot tell you for sure.
The 992 felt more fare away from what I want from a car than the Cayman, both cars need work to be where I want them to be.
Would love to have a comparo between GT4 RS vs Ferrari 458. They are so similar now
I think the 458 has absolutely no chance against the 4RS :)
What happened to the kswap miata
it exploded in Spa and I never heard back of it again. Maybe Serxio can chime in? (don't hold your breath Terry, he barely answer texts)
Gab, more than a few have watched the video 😂
:P
It would have been interesting to see the difference between 991.2 and 991.1 gt3rs and if the later generation was any faster
No difference in the real track world with proficient amateur driver. I know this from personal experience. So much depends on car setup and driver. But even with all things being equal I don’t believe there’s a difference. Porsche hype will Sa there is. IMO 😊
991.1 vs 991.2 would be interesting, I think the .2 would be a bit faster from anectodal experience, but not by that much. Would be definitely interesting to do such a comparison.
Newer is always faster and the 992 gt3rs will leave the gt4rs in the dust.
@@mawe42 absolutely. But what about a 991.1 GT3RS vs GT4RS. Personally I think the GT3
@@mawe42 from personal and anectodal experience, there is no significant performance gain between a 991.2 GT3 and a 992. I know of MANY people driving them on track, and trading their 991.2 for 992s and not go any faster on track than before. The 992RS potentially is faster than a 991.2 RS but I would really like to go out and try them back to back to see how big the difference is, really.
The only question about tires : is CR-S faster than Cup R ?
Haven't used them, currently waiting for a set of CRS.. but the answer is no, the Cup2R is meant to be a "cheater tire" with full emphasis on performance, while the CRS is meant to last a bit longer and be somewhat affordable for anyone who tracks their car, be it an M2 or an MR2 (my cars on which I'm planning to run them on, if all goes well)
@@HiruMihneaworks like charm on M2, last year i used them as 265 square, this year i try to fit 275 front 295 back. My öhlins road and track is wide though…
The Cup 2 Rs are a 300km tire, cannot be compared with this. It's like a racing slick tire and it would be significantly faster.
Completely transparent, guys. :)
always!
drive a bone stock setup g4rs its a disaster, the 992 gt3 you drove with stock setup and still a better car but not a easy one, and as i said in the first video the faster is the 991 for the "semplicity of drivability"
all cars in stock form are a disaster. Since you never carry enough speed in the corners the 4RS feels worse because if you go too early on power it just pushes wide. The 992 has a stronger front end and feels good when you drive 80% but as soon as you push it's oversteer festival.
@@GabrielePiana yes the front end in the 992 is really strong (finally porsche finally) need a different drive style compared to all the previous pigs, the gt4rs can be “fast” with the proper setup but the feeling is not there the double mcpherson downgrade the all vibe of that car.
And in stock form alignment/setup i repeat the car is really not good! Compared to a stock form gt3.
@@andre82s2k all cars require the same driving style, physics is physics. You drive the grip the car has and that's it. If you have to drive "wrong" (and yes, there is a wrong way of driving) because the car does not stay down otherwise then there is a problem with the car (setup, alignment, tire pressures, whatever else).
There has never been a 911 with a bad front end as long as you loaded it. 99% of the 911 I drove have too much oversteer, including the 991 you see in this video.
The Cayman is just more balanced (in this condition) and this is why it performed higher than expected.
If your shelling out your own money your wanting the GT3 it’s a much better developed product spend time and Dial in the GT3 and you’ll be amazed
It's quite clear we could not unlock the potential of the 992, likely due to setup but I'm not sure if I agree on the "you'd be amazed" part. I have been lucky enough to drive all sorts of GT3s and I also have quite a bit of anectodal experience from friends that swapped their 991s for the 992 and could not go faster on almost any condition. Should the 992 be faster than the GT4 RS? Yes, if i work on them probably it will be faster. Would it be a quantum leap in performance gap? I'd argue, no. To the point it makes no difference and should not inform the buying decision.
Let the driver talk…. Don‘t interrupt him all the time 🙈
Welcome to my life
Could't watch more than two minutes...poor driving skills, you almost reinvented the wheel...GT3 RS is in an another league and our brain needs time to adapt the helarious exit speed this machine car create from the apex...but i really enjoied the sideways....🙂
wow nice epizod ,but to complain that Porsche race car is loud is ..crazy ...go for tesla or RolsRois ....race cars are lound and crazy ...there not for grand tourers ...
Thank you! eheh, I know it sounds like heresy but the 4RS inside is INSANELY loud, it's literally impossible to drive without earplugs for longer than 1 or 2 hours
@@GabrielePianayes yes, if you didn’t drive one you don’t know. I know that owners complain.
@@DaGrybo the induction noise is just too much imho. But for a few minutes it's hella cool for sure :D