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Why don't you mention that almost half of the 41,000 dead in Gaza are Hamas terrorists? One listens to you and thinks that they are women and children? But that's not true. Why don't you say that this ratio is an absolute record for all the other armies of the world that fought in such impossible conditions - the enemy hides underground, using the population as human shields, the enemy uses civilian infrastructure to store weapons, and fire from there?
If I was Fuse Energy I would be wanting to distance myself from this podcast. Unless of course Fuse Energy are apologists for genocide as Campbell appears to be.
@restispolitics Every time i listen to you two, I feel a bit miserable that neither of you are running the country, or directly advising those who are. I do think this labour govt can do a lot of good. But they definitely have a PR problem. They are letting tabloids and twitter tell the story 🤢 🤮 I guess I hope Labour are somewhere in those 283k subscribers, and will take some of your advice.
@NAB001 You clearly didn't listen, did you? There were no genocide apologists here. Having actually heard the podcast, I can tell you that Rory and Alistair "understood" the reaction of Israel, but then explained why is wasnt going to solve the problems, and Vile as Hamas are, and Hesbilola, they are not (and never will be) an "existential threat" to Israel, so their attacks are not an excuse for unmitigated violence and civilian slaughter. And Iran ironically is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I wont explain that one, but you can listen with an open mind. These two gentlemen actually do the research on both sides and kindly share it for us with limited time.
I am developing a growing appreciation for Rory's ability to critically examine and challenge the prevailing narratives presented by the establishment.
The narratives Rory Stewart challenges when made by others are most often met with dismissive and childish derision by the likes of Alistair Campbell, who don't consider it necessary to think.
No, Alastair, its not a difficult subject to navigate. Let's call out individuals, groups and nations for wrongful, and downright despicable actions. The fear of being forcefully tagged as antisemitic or a terrorist sympathizer shouldn't dissuade one from being nuanced and forthright in conversations around Iran, Israel, Hamas, Palestine, Lebanon and Hezbollah. Rory tries his utmost to present a balanced position and i respect that.
Is it that surprising that the press secretary who helped guide the UK into the Iraq war would not be the voice of reason when it comes to the middle east
i'm afraid alastair's caution is more aligned to power than rory. i found those who are not directly from the israeli right but generally aligned to power will find the subject more and more difficult to navigate: either ming vase it out (stay silent) or say it's problematic. the bigger global problem however is the precedent it makes for the rule of law. iraq had a legal basis in the preemptive strike argument (whether one finds that legitimate or not it was very thoroughly worked out). bibi however has gone rogue - overstepped too many rules which is dangerous (eg. proportionality, humanitarian law, UN attacks etc.). this will be difficult to legally justify. as soon as there are exceptions to the rule of law i.e. the Westphalian Treaty, there is higher likelihood of a global war. because there's no level playing field - nations will try to make it level themselves and well - there's no stopping it - the consequences are very destructive. that's the bigger problem.
Viva Rory - articulating what “white, non college educated male voters” can’t.. here’s a weird nuance to binary thinking …. the same people who vote Reform despise Netanyahu and this Israeli extremism - people know when they’re being gaslighted .. whether by CNN/FOX NATO/US.. cos nobody has the courage to be critical of Israel because it’s z automatically anti semitic! Madness!!
yep absolutely - I have stopped listening to these two. they are far less enlightened than they project themselves to be. the UK is complicit in a genocide, plain and simple. say it, own it
Separate point - Iran isn't destroying the "Global Rules And International Order" , the US is by not upholding them , they then become meaningless. Alistair won't admit this because Iraq began the unravelling of the international order.
I thought it was interesting when Rory described Israel publicly undermining the UN as "an interesting turning point in the way countries interact with the glocal order". If it was North Korea or Iran or Russia doing the same thing, I rather suspect it'd be far more readily dismissed as simply "a rogue regime outrageously undermining international norms", probably with an "as expected, again" tacked on for good measure. The same action _can't_ mean different things when done by different countries that you either 'like' or 'dislike'.
@@zak3744 all the people with any voice are clearly weak and spineless. It's a reflection on just how narcissistic people have become, especially those in the spotlight. Whether they are media, politician or any other "leader". The world is run by psychopaths. We all suspected it, now we have to confront the ugly reality. Israel pays big bucks for its talking points, and if they weren't taking the money, they would disclose. Meanwhile, many of the jews for peace who protested in the US went on to lose their jobs. They cant stop this anyway. Israel is on a path to self destruction. I bet neither of them have EVER been to the occupied territories, nor have almost all people who claim to be "experts". Alistair Crooke is a much better source. cant say I agree with him on Ukraine, but on middle east there is no one more knowledgeable than this guy.
I agree with everything you posted, except for the starting point. I think that the beginning of the complete unraveling of the "International Rules-based Order" can be directly tied back to NATO's blatantly illegal bombing campaign in Serbia. The justification was based on blatant fabrications and manipulations of the "facts" on the ground. And, in the end, NATO invented a bogus referendum to steal Kosovo from Serbia. This wasn't in some remote area of Africa or in Central America. This was in the heart of Europe.
Don’t Palestinians also feel an existential threat? I feel like there is an existential threat for them! Do we not care about them? This conversation understates the horrors inflicted on innocent Palestinians
Why should they feel that when just before October 7th Israel along with Qatar has been funding Gaza for it's economic development, but Hamas has only been using it for military?
Israeli policy doesn't aim to kill all the Palestinians, Hamas' does and they're the governing group in Gaza. You can certainly claim the occupation and settlement building represent a kind of threat to Palestinian statehood, but that is not an existential threat - which also isn't to say that the real terms threat that Israel faces is greater or lesser than that which the Palestinian people face).
And yet you don't condemn Hamas for initiating the current state of affairs by attacking Israel on Oct 7th ? I feel a great pity for the Palestinians and what they are suffering, yet it was the Palestinians (through Hamas) that started it.
@@billybobthornton9668Okay, I’ll bite, let’s assume all the points you made as true. This does not however give Israel the right to go as far as they went. They should’ve stopped as soon as they hit twice the number of civilian casualties at the very most. They could do this by either being more careful about their military killing bystanders, ensuring they could fight for longer, or by accepting that they wouldn’t achieve every military objective. Doesn’t matter which, but at the point where you did inflict twice the horror, you cannot be the victim anymore. To be clear, I’m not saying I do or do not agree with any of the points. I am a random dude thousands of miles away, I cannot know the truth around this. However, taking the POV of anyone in that conflict does not justify what Israel ended up doing in the end. As for your argument, you made a very good point, I was assuming the ongoing colonisation of Palestine by Israel to be an existential threat to Palestinians. But you correctly brought it up that it wouldn’t really be existential, which I tend to agree with. I will think about this, thank you. To be clear, I still think it’s a huge threat, but probably not existential, indeed.
@@johnvaleanbaily246 and before October 7th, literally in September Israel bombed Gaza. Israel has had multiple attacks on Gaza (remember that famous picture of a dead child on the beach?). These are all symptoms of the same problem, Israeli occupation, apartheid and dehumanisation. Continued expansion of illegal settlements recognised as illegal by the UK continue and displace Palestinians which propped up by US ideological groups (I.e., Christian evangelicals). This is yet again an example of existential threat. It’s insane that there are so much evidence and a legal basis for condemning and putting right the crimes the Israeli state have previously and continue to commit. People seem to have no capacity to condemn all things that go against basic humanity. You seem like you are selective and don’t value all life equally.
Why does no one ever talk about the colonists on the West Bank who are occupying territory that is described as illegal occupation as an existential cause of a continued problem there if that area were given back to Palestinians if they could set real borders and a Palestinian state, would that not remove the existential threat to Israel?
No, not necessarily. But it could work as a step toward Israel making peace with its neighbors. Unfortunately, they're not likely to take that step because they've done everything in their power to alienate their neighbors throughout their history. So bridging that gap is going to take generations, if it's even possible.
Israel has openly said it will never give up these areas. This, is the root of the problem now. That and the refugees which Israel expelled in 1948 and in breach of international law never allowed to return - why? It would go against the very idea of Zionism. The expulsion was deliberate.
Because if they talk about the West Bank they’d had to admit Isreal is a colony that occupiers Palestinians and they’d have to admit they’re actually breaking law, so no they’ll never do that.
@@FireflyOnTheMoon given it's the root cause of all of this I'm not sure it's given anywhere near as much discussion as it deserves. Wasn't even mentioned once in this podcast, for example. The mainstream behaves as if it all started a year ago, or as if there are two equal sides, rather than coloniser and colonised. Maybe you've only been getting your news from Novara media though?!
Alistair such is a tone deaf neoliberal it's painful. Rory is constantly making good points about the conflict based on his knowledge of the region and Alistair just cuts him off mid sentence with some complete drivel he's just made up on the spot.
I didn't think Rory's points were good at all. He seems to think that it's only valid for a state to respond to threats with decisive military force if they pose an existential threat. Which is preposterous.
Half an hour conversation and not one suggestion of holding Israel to international law and exacting it through trade embargoes and sanctions. It’s like discussing school shootings but never suggesting changing gun laws……
My thought is that if you take away a population’s rights and freedoms to a considerable degree over a significant period of time, then those without power will resort to terror. What do you fine guys think of that view? Peter
I think that this is the western fantasy about who Hamas really is and what they want. Furthermore it is a fallacy and an inversion that is at the core of western leaders (and even some Israeli leaders) failure to understand the conflict. The radicalization and fanaticism is what is at the core of the terror. Just because your world view is that all people crave peace and stability does not mean this is what Hamas desires. It is literally the opposite of your assumption.
Centrists do not accept colonisation. They accept all the violence as part of the progress of capitalism. There is much hand wringing but not much ethics. Yet again we are commenting on an Alistair Campbell podcast.
Nonsense. Mandela didn't. Ghandi didn't. African Americans largely didn't. The IRA did, but nothing anywhere near as bad as the Jihadis and never targeted civillians. All these groups accepted political dialogue when it was offered and were willing to compromise. Palestinian leadership not only has no wish to live in peace, they have no incentive to do so either. They're all making too much money off the back of using their people as cannon fodder, maintaining the conflict, and the Palestinian people are too brainwashed to realise it.
Totally agree. Nice comfy western liberals never ask themselves how desperate would they have to feel to take up arms, risk their lives or up root their entire life and flee their home. I always think of the beginnings of the Cuban Revolution and a bunch of civilians arming themselves and attacking that police station. I don’t think these actions and choices are ever taken lightly.
you talked for a long time but never mentioned the root cause of the conflict: palestinean people under occupation deprived of their political rights, there are many solutions for this problem including the two states solution or even one state for all, whatever solution is possible will be fair enough to fix this problem. fix your problems with the palestineans, and all other problems will be fixed in no time.
Absolutely right. And I'd suggest, if we want a path to that, look at what Husam Zumlot has said repeatedly, consistently, hours after October 7th and a year later: there must be an international consensus based on international law, to make the Palestinians AND the Israelis de-escalate and create a peaceful solution...I'd say it would have to be a two state solution, because a one state solution is antithetical to the ethno-nationalist principles on which Israel is based, but upholding international law, particularly in regards to Israel, is the only way. Which is why I am so angry at the UK government (on both sides of the house), because they seem to be so in thrall to the Isreal lobby that they cannot even move politically towards a real solution. Cowards.
@@tomb020780, what I don't understand is why an International Arms Embargo has not been put in place. I remember but not in any detail, that this was a near immediate action by the UN?, in the event of regional conflict. Why has this not be done?
Or say that Palestine has the right to exist? Or that saying Israel has the right to exist is saying ‘white people had a right to colonise brown people ’
Defend themselves from what? The Arabs didn’t want a Jewish state created and attacked, and lost. They do the same thing again and again and expect different results. Accept that Israel has a right to exist in their Jewish homeland. They should have accepted a two state solution long ago. Israel left Gaza and look what happened. Radical islamists don’t want Jews in the Middle East. When will people understand this.
Talking about 'Women and children' casualties implies that the lives of adult male civilians are somehow less valuable. Perhaps the belief is that men are better equipped to cope with emotional and physical harm - or are missed less when they are killed. It's a truly offensive phrase that both Alistair and Rory frequently use.
I wondered what that was about - perhaps women and children are still considered definitively non-combatant? Old-fashioned more than offensive I'd say.
@@elinstar6034 It also implies that males killed are likely to be combatants - effectively victim blaming to some degree. ‘Civilians including children were among the casualties’ is surely more appropriate.
While I don't disagree, the reason is that it's a proxy factor. Fighting age men 'could' in theory be fighters, but women and children in Lebanon and Palestine are presumed to be civilians. In reality, you are right, and Israel targets Palestinian men in part purely based on gender at times as "potential combatants".
The preamble apologies from you two here not wanting to upset Israel and their supporters in the genocide they are committing is utterly pathetic, though unfortunately all too commonplace in the Western media. The Israeli government needs to be held to account.
Acknowledging the death and suffering of hundreds of Israeli civilians on the 7th October is not the same as pandering to the Israeli government. Think we need to stop dehumanising on all sides here.
this is ultimately an issue of humanity. Speech separates us from animals and these two buffoons here are trying to have a "conversation" about a topic they admittedly literally cannot honestly talk about. That's evolving backwards. Supposed intellectuals too, relative maybe to mainstream western standards.
Sorry but you do not slay the dragon to become the dragon. What happened on 7 Oct was truly horrifying but the genocide of tens of thousands of Palestinian and now Lebanese women and children is totally unacceptable. I grow weary of being told by Government that I too should have this 'iron clad' support for Israel. Well I, and many many others Don't and to be told we should only makes me more angry. We are witnessing a genocide, pure and simple and how can anyone support that?
You are ok with most of the Arab world trying to destroy Israel? If you support Hamas just say it and stop pretending you are horrified by the killing of women and children. Where is your outrage about the genocide of the Uyghers? Your selective outrage shows your antisemitism.
Hamas built a network of tunnels which is bigger than the London Underground. You may remember that in order to keep the population of London safe in the 2nd World War the London Underground was turned into bomb shelters by the govt so that the population of London could shelter from the indiscriminate bombing of the Wehrmacht. The British govt realised that they had a responsibility to protect their citizens from the bombing. But Hamas do not allow their populace to shelter. They do not allow them to seek refuge I. The huge network of tunnels that would keep them safe. In fact they built no bomb shelters for their people. So in short Britain used the underground to protect their people and Hamas use their people to protect their tunnels . It is Hamas who are to blame NOT ISRAEL.
For the first time I got frustrated with the nuance and balance. As an American who has a somewhat informed knowledge of the ME since 1947 I am appalled that the genocide of Palestinians is ignored. Existential threat to Israel by Hamas does not exist.
@@davidgaskin5417 She said existential threat. You know she did, and yet you deliberately misquoted her. Existential threat and threat do not mean the same thing and it is a difference and distinction that cannot be elided.
@@Beeblebrox6868 Existential threat from Hamas (probably) doesn't exist because Israel spends vast amounts of money on defence and technology and has national service so maintains a large army relative to its population. If the military arm of the controlling Mexican political party attacked USA and killed 40,000 Americans (proportionately equivalent), do you think the question of whether or not it was a true existential threat would be a prime determinant in the American response? What you're implying is that if Israel was weaker, less organised, less technologically developed, and poorer, its response would be more acceptable because the threat would be greater? That's basically suggesting that strong nations need to just suck it up.
Shocking bias from Alistair towards Israel. It did not start on 7 Oct. More Palestinian were killed by Israeli soldiers before 7 October in West Bank no Hamas there.
Sorry you are wrong, while Hamas dont govern the West Bank they do operate there as do Palestine Islamic Jihad and a couple pother smaller groups. And Yes the conflict between Arabs and Jews goes way back to the 7th century but really heated up in the 1800's with Hebron & Safed 1834 (month long attack on Jewish community)
Note the Freudian slip " the Palestinian problem remains " is that what you really think of the poor displaced people that have been abused by the west in the name of democracy
I'm a big TRiP fan and listen to most episodes but this was an astoundingly poor one, I have to say. I'm all for trying to have a balanced and equal discussion over the isreal/gaza conflict, and I respect that, that is what this is trying to achieve. But this, and other mentions of the conflict in previous TRiP episodes, completely ignores the context of Nakba. Yes Oct 7th was an absolutely horrific event, and yes, isreali's fear for their extinction, but do palestinians not? They've been forced from their homes, had their human rights removed and restricted, men are often kidnapped and arrested without sentance or trial. It is abosutely ridiculous to ignore everything isreal has done to persecute the palestinian people for nearly a hundred years and act as if this is something that started on october 7th.
as they kept saying themselves. they are bound to ‘offend’ if they go too far with any honest criticism of Israeli crimes. it’s sensible self-preservation, if depressing and somewhat nauseating.
@@jamescarr5796 What is nauseating is that they keep having to excuse themselves if they offend anyone by simply talking and exploring different views and opinions regarding this highly sensitive subject. Have you ever been to the region? Probably not like most is us who’s attached to one of the sides simply through emotions.
Mr Nutella, if you came out of your house and every day that you did, your neighbour gestured to you with his thumb, making a semicircle around his throat, that he was going to kill you and your family, the question would not be weather or not to build a wall but how high it would be. In relation to Nakba that Muslim Arabs of the region speak of… this catastrophe is that there is a non-Islamic state in the region. You see this is an ideological problem and not a nationalistic one, or nor is it a post-colonial one. The truth of the matter is the most successful colonist influence in this problem is that of Islam and its spread, and its un willingness to retreat, after all Islam is a colonizing force, probably the oldest.
@@chrisstorrer Islamic country’s are unable to rise, why ? Why Is it always everyone else’s fault? The big four Islamic country’s in the region seemed to have figured it out, and that’s why they wanted to normalise relations with Israel. This is what HAMAS wanted to destroy on 07/10/24. Why ?
This is so DEPRESSING! Alistair & Rory have been at the heart of what has gone on in the world over the last 20 yrs and with all of the clear evidence of absolute failure of policy, the penny still hasnt dropped for them and these guys are the "moderates" in comparison to whom we have leading the Tory & Labour parties. Their judgement is so bad, it is despairing. Listen to this Rory, I am not Muslim or from the Middle East, I am from NW England and I am completely outraged at Israel, the US and UKs behaviour in the region and appalled at the ongoing genocide in Gaza - STOP TRYING TO SAY ONLY MUSLIMS CARE ABOUT HUMANS IN THE MIDDLE EAST!! Moreover, your analysis is insane at this point, after the repeated failures and millions of lives lost in the last 2 decades, how can you be still talking about Western military interventions as a way of managing issues. Rory, you flirt with rationality but then always ensure the listeners know that you're ideological in your view of the resistance forces - I guess we cannot take the ideological colonialist out of most Tories, even when empirical evidence suggests black and white view points resolve nothing and only lead to racism, colonialism, empire and human suffering. You still serve the empire and not the progressive path.
Absolutely,they just sound like old colonialists !!! completely devoid of any feeling for Palestinians people or the wider region in general and treat Israel as an unquestioningly legitimate rational player in the middle east
the real problem has always been the fact that people like these two had a voice at all. They are not even intelligent the way they speak. They are not hardworking or honest. They are not fair nor knowledgeable. How come these kinds of people get into positions where they are even being listened to by the general public? I am looking at the comments and most people realize this but somehow we are all here under their shitty podcast video talking about them. Something to think about
criticizing Iran for mentioning that October 7 was the begining of the genocide without context about what happened before while also doing the exact same when it comes to the Israeli side always bringing up October 7 as if they were not killing and displacing Palestinians for decades prior
Exactly, when has western media every spoken about Palestine? The only reason people are so informed now is social media revealed Israel true nature and led people to learn.
I am from Northern Ireland and there are many parallels to be drawn. In NI, those in the centre of politics, supported by the many, eventually brought together those at either extreme, with the process taking decades. The Palestine/Israel situation is even more extreme than the NI situation ever was, and my view is that the issue will remain unresolved until the people on both sides distance themselves from the politics of extremists, both within and without governments.
They can't, the degree of radicalisation within Israel is extremely intense, and the Palestinians have almost no power while the Israelis have no incentive or desire to reach an agreement. You are somewhat conflating Gaza with Palestine, but the West Bank is very different, and indeed what came before was different. The reality is that NI was a radically different situation, with two sovereign states, one on either side, and a lot of international pressure. The UK was the single greatest target of ECHR complaints at the time, and there was a lot of pressure from the US. But more importantly, for all its misdeeds, the UK government was a radically different kind of government to that of Israel, and the partisanship within NI was in a sense parochial to that area. The dynamics were utterly distinct. The one time a peace process really existed between Israel and the Palestinians was extremely tenuous, and ended in an assassination, and since then things have gotten so much worse. But this conflict goes back to the mandate of Palestine, and "blew up" around the time of the partition plan of 47, when the west, mainly the US frankly, gave most of the country to the Jewish minority who had been migrating into the region much more rapidly in recent decades. They did this in violation of the international rule concerning the right of self-determination of peoples, without consulting the Palestinian population or regional Arab powers. This led to a war which Israel won, and the expulsion of much of the Palestinian population, followed by further wars, more land seizures, annexations, occupation and the settlements. Today the Palestinians exist in tiny enclaves, split apart from one another, and the larger of the two is increasingly being taken over by Israel, with the Palestinian population largely subject to a different legal regime to the Jewish, something multiple international humanitarian organisations have described as apartheid. illegal detentions, extrajudicial killings, forced movement and collective punishment have been recurrent, and in some cases normalised across decades and generations. There is no sentiment in Israel towards a peace process, no real international pressure, and the Palestinians have no power whatsoever. So there is nothing driving a process, and the regime is vehemently opposed to one. Instead the reality is one of gradual ethnic cleansing. It's much more like the US period of westward expansion than it is like Northern Ireland.
@@simonkapadia7582Clearly you are not from the north of Ireland / NI. Mark says there are many parallels to be drawn, not that the Irish and Palestinian cause are the same. And he's completely right. I think your main main misconception is that it was and is still a Catholic / Protestant parochial conflic when in reality it was about the occupation and eradication of the Irish people and their culture. My parents generation at one point wouldn't have considered peace a realistic prospect. You lack any knowledge of just how badly the British treated the Irish over 800 years long before ECHR existed. Displacement of Irish from their land and planting British protestant settlers by force, saying they would offer political recognition only to back track starting more civil unrest, causing famine to control the population, going after the "head of the hydra" only to radicalise more people who wanted to get on with their lives, using internment where you could be held indefinitely without trial, lack of legal representation with no ability to vote, and just fui the longest military operation in British history was in Ireland. Any of this sounds familiar? Yes they absolutely can be brought together. Is it going to happen in this generation? No. It has been a long 800 years of British occupation in Ireland and the peace process in 1998 is only the later end of this story. You are right in that Palestine has no power except to lash out with acts of terror and Israel has no incentive to cooperate but this is yet again another parallel. The British came under significant international pressure especially from the US and this is exactly what we need from them today to stop this war. Stopping the violence is always the first step.
@@simonkapadia7582. lots to unpack here. Hmmm. Palestinians have no power? That’s not Israel’s doing. That’s their elected government, a terrorist org, one of the worst in the world. Israel left them thriving businesses in 2005 and Hamas and the PLO destroyed them all, including the buildings. Israel has tried on 5 occasions to make peace and the Arabs refuse to deal honestly. Oct 7, 2023 happened during one such agreement. Terrorists tends to attack when they’re out of money. They call for ceasefires when they are in danger of losing their supporters. There’s no such place as Palestine so you can’t conflate it. The West Bank and Gaza are internationally recognized as being part of Israel, regardless of what people say. Even the courts are issuing unfounded statements that carry no weight and contradict what the legal status really is. You can’t change borders just because you don’t like a country’s politics or their leader. This conflict is a religious one. And the Koran says that Islam may not negotiate with infidels, and it decrees that all infidels must be killed. That would seem to me to be a difficult group to make a deal with. The peace agreement may have ended in an assassination of Yitschak Rabin, but the peace treaty has held with Egypt. Israel does a lot of trade with Egypt. The US did not give most of the country to Israel. That’s ridiculous! Think about what you just said! Who had the mandate for Palestine? The British. And because Churchill wanted to thank the Hashemites for helping defeat the Ottomans, he gave 70% of the land that was supposed to be Israel’s, to the Hashemite kingdom and called it Transjordan (Jordan). Israel nonetheless accepted whatever land they could get, but the Arabs followed the Koran, which said there can be no Jew in your midst. 700,000 Arab refugees resulted because the 5 surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel the next day. Golda Meir told them not to leave. The Arabs who stayed are now Israel’s citizens. The surrounding Arab countries refused to absorb their co-religionists. When all the other Arab countries heard Israel was formed, they kicked out 800,000 Jews from their countries. There is no violation of international rules or law by Israel. The Arab countries violated international law. Look up what “uti possidetis juris” means. That’s a law to prevent a new state from being taken over on day one, the way the Arabs planned was going to happen. The Naqba was all the Arab’s doing, as was Deir Yassin where the Arabs lied about Jews raping Arab women. Israel did not occupy land or seize land or expel Arabs from their land. The borders of 1948 were their borders. It was Egypt who annexed Gaza and Jordan who annexed Judea and Samaria. In 1967, Israel retrieved what was theirs originally. You don’t have the foggiest notion of what apartheid is. It does not apply to Israel for many reasons, chief among them is that this is not about whites and blacks, as was the case in South Africa. This was always land of the Israelites or Canaanites, and it is ancestral land to them. If anything, apartheid is carried out by Hamas in the way they deny food and shelter from Gazans. Lebanon is apartheid because there are people living there who cannot become citizens for generations and cannot gain entrance to certain professions like MD. There is no forced movement of Arabs. It’s the Israelis who moved, by force, other Israelis out of Gaza in 2005. You’re a fool if you think there’s no desire by Israel to have peace. They’ve tried 5x and what did they get? Attacked for giving up land for peace. If the Arabs spent as much time and money improving the lives of Gazans rather than building tunnels and training people for combat, and release the hostages, the bombardment would stop.
Unfortunately neither the Israeli public nor the Palestinian public want peace. They can't bring their politicians in from the extremes until they themselves come in from the extremes.
@@conorrobb9167 Agreed. As a South African I see more parallels with our apartheid history, especially during the 1980's under President PW Botha . The immense govt internal repression of black people, blanket censorship , military raids on ANC resistance based in neighbouring countries, the assassinations of ANC leaders in & outside South Africa using bombs, poison etc. & of course the legislated racism of the apartheid system. Social pressure forced Britain & the US to embargo South Africa (to cripple it financially), which ultimately forced South African to negotiate with the ANC.
Rory’s “existential threat” argument gets right to the core of my opinion right now. There’s multiple additional details to it, but the core of it is: Israel is a strong military state in the region with vast international backing. It’s not going to disappear, on the contrary, as we see today, it’s quickly gaining territory. Using the horrific military actions they did is inexcusable, and will be go down in history as one of the horrible tragedies of our shared history. Yes, Israel _did_ have the right to defend itself, and I was comfortable supporting the counter-attack against Hamas UNTIL THEY PASSED 2x the civilian casualty count. Surely when you kill twice the number of people you lost, any sane human would take a step back and question what they’re doing. Anything after is simply seeing Palestinians as inferior to Israelis and deciding that all that tragedy is meaningless to you. This is an oversimplified version of what I think, there’s many more layers on top of it, but none of which tip the balance into Israel’s favour.
Are you actually suggesting that, and let's assume the Hamas-provided numbers are correct (they're lies), that Israel should have stopped its offensive against the Hamas terrorists and state as soon as the Palestinian casualty numbers hit 2x Israelis? This is not how wars or reality work. Has any war ever worked like that? Should it be enforced in a court? Is this the way humans should always fight wars? Why should Israel fight to these silly rules when no-one else ever has or ever will do?
@@1adamuk I am not saying Israel should or should not do anything. I am saying once that happened, our support for Israel should have stopped immediately. If they want to fight further, well, not great for humanity, but it’s their country. But you cannot claim to be defending yourself once you hit that scale of counteroffensive. At that point you are effectively waging war against Palestine. Which is or is not something we want to support, depending on one’s opinion. That’s why I’m saying that the West should have stopped their support for Israel as soon as the civilian casualty count tipped that much, and the US, UK, France, etc. should’ve figured out if they’re comfortable supporting a war of conquest against Palestine. EDIT: P.S. Even assuming that Hamas lies about the numbers, they cannot possibly be over an order of magnitude exaggerated. This would still put Palestinian casualties way past that 2x point.
@@1adamukGaza was an open air prison, it was and is occupied territory - you do not go to war in an occupied territory. Rather than a war it is more plausibly a genocide. To ethnically cleanse Gaza was always the most obvious long term goal of Israel (whether you define Israel as fascist or not -it is impossible to argue that it hasn’t always been an apartheid state).
@@JohnCox-ut3cv I respect your opinion in this case, however… (for anyone reading the thread) I’d like us to take a step back and look at the barest of facts in this thread. Let me be clear, I think all of these conversations around much more nuanced questions of humanity and ethics are HUGELY important. However, I’d like to take a more analytical approach here. Because, the point I’m trying to make is, even if I try to take Netenyahu’s point of view, I cannot see why we should continue supporting Israel’s defensive or offensive capabilities. So, painting Israel in the absolute best light, and taking the most hardcore pro-Israel position that is not fascistic, I cannot find a good argument for us still supporting them with weapons. The definition of whether the Gaza strip was an open air prison or not, etc. is of course important to debate, but in this context it does not really matter. Because we are soo far past the point at which this stopped being a defensive effort and started being an offensive war against Palestine. EDIT: P.S. In anticipation of this counterargument, I am yet again not saying that Israel should or should not continue the war. It’s their military, their country, they can do whatever they want. What I’m saying is we in the west have no right to be supporting Israel in this war _by default_. As in, to maintain the status quo of us helping keep the defensive veil over Israel while they conduct attacks outside of their territory, I would want Keir Starmer to openly declare war onto Palestine. Basically to acknowledge the situation. Then naturally the people might or might not like that, and he will or will not get voted out. But the way the politicians are framing this situation is hugely misleading at best and outright manipulation at worst.
@@JohnCox-ut3cvI understand an apartheid state to mean strict separation such as existed in South Africa or the Jim Crow laws that existed in the southern US. Nobody is forced to ride in the back of the bus in Israel, there are no separate lunch counters or toilet facilities, etc. There are Arab Muslims in the Knesset and they have the vote there are senior military figures who are Druze, the Israeli government before this one included an Islamist party. How is this apartheid or is it just a matter of taking the nastiest words in the political lexicon (along with Nazi) and affixing them to the Israeli state as a way of denying that state’s right to exist? This is not to deny the illegality of the occupation of the West Bank and the viciousness of the settlers. Your argument is not only black and white it is a distortion maybe there’ll be something resembling peace when the lies and distortions stop on both sides.
No, if Israel wanted to, there wouldn't be any Lebanese or Palestinians, it's not for lack of ability but lack of intention, sadly it's exactly the opposite with Israel's neighbors.
@@Giss.ivan1234 classic jingoistic Israeli talking point which is flatly incorrect. Israel does not have the capability to wipe these populations out. They haven't even been able to wipe out Hamas.
@@IanDoesMagic ....yet. Perhaps they in fact DO have the capability, but they needed the pretext to use that capability without becoming a complete pariah state. Oct 7 gave them a pretext, and they are taking it with both hands. My worry is how far their current allies will allow them to push this pretext before acting in a meaningful way to stop it.
It's not about being chained to a party or an ideology. There are substantial holes in Rory's logic, per usual. He makes sweeping assumptions and generalizations and then doggedly defends them, because he thinks the world is a meeting of the gd Oxford Debating Society.
Ehhh 8/10 he definitely has a more complex and nuanced less liberal establishment view of the situation like Alistair. But he also negates some big points like Iran and Hezbollah are not much weaker than thought - it’s Israel having the US right by its side on a leash because the Israel lobby controls the US and all its other vassal states. Without talking about this influence you can’t fully understand the bravado that Israel is showing.
I've always felt that AC was the weaker and less informed or nuanced speaker in this podcast, and this episode further reinforced my feeling feeling. I appreciate Rory calling out the peddling of Netanyahu talking points.
Full marks to Rory for his contextual intro. Too often a country is named rather than its government or factions. It's a lazy identifier, like capitals ('Beijing says ..'). Hopefully we view the citizens of Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, et al with equal compassion.
13:06 it's actually more like 16,400 children that have been killed. if you went to a funeral for every day for each child, it would take you 45 years to attend all the funerals
Yes don't forget to mention they count as children people up to 19yo. How many of them are combatants is unknown. So this statistic without context (if it is true at all) is irrelevant
@@blabla12654you need help. Even if a significant percentage of that number were combatants that still leaves 10,000+ dead civilian children. Sadly you are not the only one who finds that irrelevant
@@blabla12654 oxfam published 30th September 2024: ‘Conservative figures show that more than 6,000 women and 11,000 children were killed in Gaza by the Israeli military over the last 12 months.’ Save the children: ‘Since the 7 October attacks in which 33 children were killed in Israel, more than 13,800 children have been killed in Gaza and 113 in the West Bank, and over 12,009 children have been injured in Gaza and at least 725 children in the West Bank, according to the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) and the Ministry of Health in Gaza.’
Wow, Rory surprised me with his nuance and understanding of the situation. Alistair just repeated talking points, which is no surprise, this dude helped bring about the Iraq war and wrote the fake 45 min dossier.
I can’t believe there was no mention of Israel’s colonisation and occupation of Gaza, in understanding the attitudes of the surrounding countries to Israel. In no point in history has a colonised people or it’s neighbours not been hostile to colonisers. North America was colonised over 150yrs. You mention everyone group involved in the region ignoring the elephant in the room, colonisation, and wonder ‘how can we get everyone to get along’.
Israel pulled out of Gaza completely in 2005 and Hamas got elected there. Its not an "occupation" thats just daft, I mean Egypt controls Gaza's southern border, not Israel. Hamas has received billions upon billions and instead of doing anything constructive for the Palestinians they spent that money on terror tunnels, rockets, missiles and turned it into a terror statelet. They chose to do that when they could have chosen a much better path, Hamas are utterly utterly despicable. Even their own leader said recently "the deaths in Gaza are a necessary sacrifice". What chance do these people have. All this when they had their own elected govt and were no longer occupied for the last 19 years. Also your comparison with North America is so bizarre, the native Americans were never once, not ONCE offered a state of their own. They were utterly subdued and conquered. The Palestinians were offered a state in 1948 and chose two things, firstly to reject having a state of their own and secondly to concentrate all their efforts on attacking and annihilating the jews. Really no comparison. If Palestine had accepted a state in 1948 and worked towards cooperation and friendship with the nascent state of Israel the entire region might have been in a far better place.
@@gordonaddie3107 please come up with some new lies? The uk government positions is Gaza is under siege along with everyone else. You say Israel pulled out of Gaza , what you mean is they stopped their illegal occupation. Palestinians offered a state? AFTER they were colonised, ffs…..what a load of white supremest colonising rubbish. Fine, say Germany offered half of their country to form a new Israel, would you accept that?
@@gordonaddie3107 That's horrific ignorance you're peddling there through the mechanism of decontextualising, framing, and in some cases frankly outright lies. Not least about the 1947 partition plan. You very clearly have a partisan perspective and suffer from selective empathy, a lack of critical reasoning skills and a great deal of ignorance.
I would like to hear Rory and Alister’s opinion on the recent Al Jazeera piece about media bias towards Israel and the many failures of outlets like the BBC and CNN
The BBC is markedly anti-Israel. Sure not as hard core as Al Jazeera, but any argument that BBC is Zionist the you are way way off the objective center.
I'd like to know why Al Jazeera no longer broadcasting I'm uk. First RT, now Al J. Seems uk want to control the message. I know I can still watch both online
how a year has changed this podcast - once a space of enlightened, balanced, insightful conversation, or so it seemed. I can barely bring myself to listen anymore and in fact tend to just delete in the feed. the UK and US are deeply, profoundly implicated in a genocide. and yet this is not spelled out here in ways that suggest any genuine ownership over this reality. the arrogance and disgrace of Blair's Middle Eastern ventures evidently remains at the heart of the establishment, now wrapped in the charm of articulate podcasting. It remains, however, a betrayal to the public. The Uk is on the wrong side of history, again.
Surprised to see that Rory is much more nuanced and on point on this than Alastair. I'm generally a fan of Alastair, but his POV of this is very representative of the classic, hawkish US neo-con approach to foreign policy that drove Iraq and Afghanistan disasters.
Like myself Rory has lived and worked in Islamic/Arabic areas of the world. Gives you a perspective you can't get if you just ingest mostly western media unquestioningly.. Iranians are a beautiful and ancient people, the current (now very old) government is the issue. Personally I think eventually the Iranian people will prevail and the old guard will just fade away... Give it 30 years..
@@yahalimu It's all so heartbreaking. I know beautiful and wonderful people from all of these places - Americans, Brits, Lebanese, Israelis, Iranians... I've never met a single person from any one of these places who, if given a gun, would go and kill someone from the "other side." It's so infuriating to watch our governments and "leaders" drag us through this, in pursuit of their agendas..
All the pumping up of Iran being "a major and significant threat to the world and the Gulf " is to provide the US military industrial complex with yet another huge stimulus for weapons sales. They must be loving it! Expect some wild celebratory partying this Xmas season.
Campbell needs to listen to Stewart's analysis of Iran. He's been up close and personal with all the different flavours of Shia Muslim when governing in Iraq. ( iean he kind of did the whole pith helmet thing by waltzing in to that job - but it's miles better than anything Campbell knows). Iran is a complex country with it's own cotext and history, it's criminal how illiterate you all are about it.
Let's not forget 9/11, the atrocity caused that day on US soil unleashed invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Decades and unimaginable deaths later, are those countries any better off and does the US feel any safer? History is repeating.
Completely different story. Those were offensives on the other side of the world with questionable motives (Iraq). This is a war against enemies on the country's doorstep and on oct 7, inside it. So unless, you thesis is 'all war useless', irrelevant. And yes of course war is bad but when you must fight, you fight
9/11 pales into insignificance next to October 7th. As a proportion of the total population Isreal suffered the equivalent of 36,000 Americans being slaughtered on 9/11. If 9/11 had been the slaughter of 36,000 Americans does anyone really believe America wouldn't have used WMD against the perpetrators?
@@itamarsharon Irrelevant that the two belligerents are located right next to each other. Otherwise Pakistan and India might as well just go to war right now because both happen to have their country in the wrong place.
Nuance is the ultimate sin in our polarized, clickbait meme-driven world where you are absolutely right and your opponent is both a moron and acutely evil.
I shouldn't have been surprised that Alastair was taking the legacy Right-atlanticist position, but I was surprised that Rory was the one to push back on it.
It's so refreshing to hear parties talk about the Middle East (specifically Rory), who actually have in-depth knowledge of the region. What is alarming is the number of leading politicians who are happy to make bold statements about the region but have no real knowledge.
@@markeburne5106 And that's fair enough. He's not pretending to be an authoritative voice and took pains to say that at the beginning, acknowledging that his was an opinion from the outside. The important thing is to be able to have this conversation, because the discourse is almost entirely dominated by absolutist positions that stifle out any chance of us reaching a balanced view. One side unquestioningly supports all of Israel's claims and neglects to comment on the excessive civilian deaths they have caused, while the other only considers the history of oppression by Israel on Palestinians relevant and ignores the agency of other actors in the region. I'm not saying these sides are equal. One of them has clearly had far more influence on Western media and governments. It simply makes dialogue impossible because there are very few people prepared to have their positions challenged. We don't necessarily need an awareness of all the historical facts (although it is helpful) to be able to come to a nuanced understanding of the situation today. Being able to discuss it is the main thing.
@anat6973 Get real. Illegal occupation of land for 57 years, an apartheid state, refusal by Netanyahu to countenance a 2 state solution, and a total indifference to civilian casualties have affected public perceptions of Israel far more than any omissions by a couple of podcasters.
Hamas has attempted to negotiate since October 7. The Israeli government's line is no negotiations until the hostages are released and there is an unconditional surrender. That isn't negotiating.
Yes and no, there have been multiple rounds of negotiation, the Israeli press have reported that Netanyahu has sabotaged each deal that has come close to being accepted. In effect, there *are* negotiations, but they aren't allowed to succeed.
Netanyahu has said that it doesn't matter if the hostages are released or not, the genocide will go on, relatives of the hostages have been attacked by Right Wing thugs for demonstrating.
Is it just me that thinks it’s the most basic thing ever to understand that hamas’ attack on oct7 ( which is most definitely wrong as civilians were killed ) was because of an apartheid occupation by Israel it’s not rocket science. Iran, hezbollah, houthis all have issue with Israel simply because of this occupation it is not rocket science it’s very simple end the occupation and hamas oct7 never happens
It is interesting that the past 'world experience' of these two fine gents seems to have influenced their views so profoundly. Whilst Rory has a very good grasp of the Palestine issue (a 'world' event), Alistair is quite different. Although I am not a Brit and live far from the UK, Alistair always seems 'on point' as far as UK politics is concerned (as is Rory), but he appears to have a major 'blank' as far as some 'world' issues are concerned, where they are outside the purely political sphere. I am afraid he displayed this in the Iraq War conflict, and he is doing so again in the Palestinian issue, seemingly being easily taken in by Western and Israeli propaganda - many of his statements in this discussion displays this naivety very starkly.
Agree with Rory's take on the Israel-Palestine conflict. What is omitted is the illegal occupation of Palestine and human rights abuses committed by Israel prior to the 7th October. This the view of the vast majority of the world as we can see by UN votes. It is childish to refer to the Iranian government as a regime; similarly the region should be referred to as West Asia not the Middle East.
They also failed to comment that while Israel has been massacring civilians, Iran attack them and killed no one. The Arab nations have show more restraint but then again we all know what Israel’s ultimate jen0cidle plan is.
There are only so many aspects of the conflict you can fit into a ~30-minute conversation, many of which are axiomatic. I believe he spoke in more detail about these things on Sam Harris's podcast.
@@dannyclub09 the thing is the colonisation and occupation is important, the situation is frequently presented as Palestinians and Arabs just being hostile. You can’t analyse why groups are doing what they do without understanding the situation of the Palestinians in the first place
Illegal occupation. I guess you would consider the Allied occupation of Germany during WWII as an illegal occupation as well. Are you really that daft? This is absurd to think any country would allow a terrorist group to launch missiles at it without retaliation. Israel has every right to protect its people and its right to exist.
If the Germans had of landed in England and it was still under German rule would you feel you had the right to fight back against them . If that fight didnt get anywhere what would you do . If your children and families were treated the way Palestinian families have been treated since the 60's what would you do.
@@kevinbermingham6186 it would be horrific. It is horrific! But I don’t believe the Germany analogy is the same. I wish it was. The Israel scenario involves claims to the land and sanctioning by the United Nations along with everything else that goes along with it. The Germany analogy is black and white. But what do I know. This has been going on for so long with no end in site and as Rory said, I am not Israelis nor Palestinian. I’m my mind it should be a One State solution. Live together like other pluralistic countries. Northern Ireland eventually figured it out. I’m babbling and should just shut up.
Sorry but Alistair has less than no credibility on any of this considering Iraq and middle east, if it wasnt for Rory no one would listen, hes the only one that talks sense regarding international relations. Alistair makes up is opinion like any arm chair uncle... another terrified to say Isreal have went far, far too far
If Hamas had only attacked Israeli military on 7 October, that would have been understandable as they are the occupying power. Attacks on civilians was a huge mistake as well as being a war crime. By the same token, Israel killing thousands of civilians is also war crime and in time will be regarded as a huge mistake, with their reputation trashed and their future security weakened. The fact they are now applying the same tactics in Lebanon is appalling. Hundreds have been killed, with no distinction of whether they support Hezbollah or not. Vast numbers of Lebanese have been driven from their homes. Netanyahu’s Israel is out of control and is seen, with some justification, to be a pariah state and a regional menace. As for Iran, despite the current awful regime, seems no worse than Saudi Arabia and the Iranian people are renowned for their humanity.
Rory was doing so well and then equated Hezbollah and Iran (saying they are horrible) with their thousands of people. As at today Israel has committed a terrorist attack on three thousand in Lebanon and bombed and killed over a thousand Lebanese civilians. Who is horrid. It is Israel or will you distinguish Netanyahu?
Great Fuse Energy advert at the beginning. Hopefully I win so I can give the books to my nan for suitable log fire material since Labour scrapped the winter fuel allowance 😂 📚🔥
What role is the UK playing exactly? Why on earth are we involved in the air defence of Israel, shooting down Iranian rockets for the defence of Israel, but doing nothing to shoot down rockets fired by Israel in the defence of others?
I think the consensus today is that the first indian war for freedom (also known as the Indian mutiny) was just that a freedom movement. During that struggle horrible things were done by the Indians to the English and today we condemn those things whilst understanding that the Indians were under occupation. I am a 3rd generation British Indian secular Muslim and I can’t think of anything worse than living under Hamas. I don’t want to find myself defending them but they are ‘under occupation’. When there is a two state solution and USA stops funding Israel, you will find me marching for Israel if they are attacked for no apparent reason by their neighbours.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, it is not under occupation. The reason there is no two-state solution is because Palestinian Arabs have consistently refused one and instead waged war against Israel. Moreover, Hamas is a genocidal entity specifically calling for all Jews to be vanquished
@@jakeforder9435 Israel controls all aspects of life in Gaza - how much electricity there is, who can leave, who arrives, how much food, how much water, the internet, when to “mow the lawn”. The Warsaw Ghetto was free and independent, too, in your terms. The reason the population expanded so quickly in so few years is that Palestinians were displaced from the West Bank and forced to go to Gaza. In the last ten years when Palestinians have protested their “imprisonment” they have been shot and killed by Israelis. See the right to return marches which occurred for many Fridays in the last decade.
Campbell is a very arrogant man. His huge failures in foreign policy and WMD lies should be enough for anyone with a bit of decency to retire from public life. The podcast value is all due to Rory’s presence.
Couldn't agree more. If Rory wasn't on here, I could not bear to listen to the hypocrisy of AC whose actions in supporting Blair et al caused many of the problems in the Middle East.
13:23 Alistair, "I think we can understand why Israel reacted the way they did". Absolutely abhorrent comment - any reasonable human being cannot understand the horror Israel have subjected the Palestinian people to.
The fundamental belief here that Iran is considerably weaker militarily than Israel is now seriously questioned by most informed analysts and this therefore alters dramatically the consequent scenarios presented. I do not feel it has been Iran's intention but it is Israeli action and reaction which will ultimately lead to it's demise.
Levelling up,the most insulting concept there has ever been.It basically says that after post industrialisation,areas mainly in the north and Midlands,due to lack of planning and investment were left to rot.The tories completely failed with it and my issue is why we're we left so far behind in the first place.
Iran knows it can’t land massive damage in Israel without drawing American and several European countries into the conflict. That’s why Israel will keep pushing them hoping for that outcome.
Sorry but NOBODY felt Afghanistan was an existential threat, A. Q. were a threat but nobody ever said or imagined they threatened the existence of the UK. Alister peddled the lie that Iraq could be a threat...but never existential.
Brilliant analysis from Rory, we got rid of Sadam which left a vacuum for Al Qaeda to move and later gave birth to hideous groups like ISIS. Hamas has been contained by Israel between 2005-2023, the only reason Oct 7th was allowed to happen was a result of massive security failure largely due to complacency on the Gaza border, they had 100s of security forces on the Gaza border vs much larges force in the West Bank to support settler expansion. To say Hamas poses immediate existential threat to the state of Israel is at best comical.
Listen to how scared of Israeli bullying these two are eg. When Stewart refers to hamas, hezbollah and iran as 'unbelievably unpleasant' and doesn't use anything like this language to describe what is clearly an unbelievably unpleasant Israeli government.
Pretty hard to listen to these two on this subject. How anyone can objectively look at what Palestinians have been subjected to for decades - let alone the last year - and effectively call it 50-50 is sickening.
54:00 re £200 million spent on planning for the Thames Tunnel. The ultimate cost of the Thames Tideway Tunnel was £5 billion so those planning costs were only 4% of the final costs and relatively small compared to the overall costs (assuming these figures are correct). You've got to question why the costs of construction of major national infrastructure projects in Britain are so much greater than other countries. I don't know the answer but would suggest things like planning, archaeology and ecology are a drop in the ocean and these are the types of things the Tories (and now Labour) were targetting. The first place I would look is at the profits of the major contractors.
The actual civilian death toll in Gaza is estimated to be around 23,000, based on figures of 41,000 total deaths minus the 18,000 militants reportedly killed by the Israeli Defense Force (IDF). When discussing death tolls in Gaza, it is essential to note that the numbers are provided by the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. This often creates confusion, as no clear distinction is made between civilian and combatant casualties; Hamas tends to report all deaths as civilian. Between May 6-8, 2024, the UN adjusted the Gaza death toll to approximately 40,000, marking a 47% reduction in the number of women and children previously reported killed. This adjustment was linked to fraudulent reporting of deaths, some of which had been recorded from earlier years or even decades. The UN also indicated that one-sixth of the 40,000 deaths remain under investigation for potential fraud, pending further details, including photographic IDs from Hamas authorities. To calculate a more accurate civilian death toll, we could subtract the 18,000 Hamas militants killed and the one-sixth of deaths still being investigated from the 41,000 total. This leaves an estimated civilian death count of approximately 16,167. References: Although the exact UN report from May 2024 is difficult to locate, this recalculation has been referenced in multiple analyses, such as: Washington Institute Analysis ACLED Report on Hamas --- Calculations: 1. Total deaths reported: 41,000 2. Deaths still under investigation (one-sixth): 41,000 \div 6 = 6,833.33 41,000 - 6,833.33 = 34,166.67 5. Estimated civilian deaths after subtracting Hamas gunmen: 34,166.67 - 18,000 = 16,166.67 Thus, the more accurate civilian death toll is approximately 16,167.
These 2 should look at a map from time to time The operating words here are size and distance Had Iran had a border with Israel the scenarios around 35:00 might just be possible ie hitting Iran so hard "the threat disappears" However Iran is inconveniently 1000 to 2000 Km away It has spent the last 30 years developing a huge long range missile arsenal which it can launch from super-hardened or highly mobile sites If Israel hits really vital targets in Iran it can put a cross on its energy infrastructure for a start So then , how does an advanced "1st World" economy fare in such a case ? Answer: Not well at all Barring massive and direct US help Israel has very short legs in this fight unless it goes nuclear And BTW 1- When you have 100+ nuclear warheads and the other guy has none he is not an existential threat to you 2- A strike against Iran with more than a dozen aircraft, of which half would be there to provide cover for the rest, is beyond the capacity of Israel It simply does not have the refuelling aircraft to do this
Could either of them explain how proportionality featured in Afghanistan, or Iraq which Alister lied to the public in order to invade? They quote deaths in Gaza, without even attempting to guess at the numbers of Hamas fighters killed, did Rory do the same in Afghanistan as the Taliban were being fought and killed? No.
How many are dead in Gaza. The oft quoted 40,000 is unbelievable. Now we have US medical professionals saying the true figure is 120,000. Others say 200,000. Perhaps we shall never know.
@@jamesbrown-pk2do US medical professionals coming out and making a nonsense of the 40,000 figure that the media has bandied about for nine months, though. 18 million is ridiculous. Personally, I would not be surprised at a quarter of the population already dead or dying & the Israelis withholding food and water.
Nowhere else do I hear such reasoned, informed and passionate debate. Nobody knows it all or gets it all correct but boy are you two a welcome relief from crap elsewhere. Thank you.
Then you should really try some other media outlets and speakers who actually know what they're talking about like Daniel Levy,a British jew who has been involved in major peace negotiations for the last 30 years or more.He would have out these two to shame
Great to see you guys actually debating and disagreeing again ( in the right way) great to see Rory pushing the envelope and really pushing back on the common narratives. More of it please!
The deaths on the Oct 6th break-out from the southern internment camp (a.k.a. Gaza), blockaded by Israel since 2007, have not been validated and remain an oddly rounded "1200" , even after 12 months, reduced already from the previously rounded figure of "1400". This contrasts with the precision given by the Gazan Health Ministry of Gazans 41 965 killed since Oct 6th (also not yet validated, but linked to names). Where there’s illegal occupation, there will always be resistance, just as there was in territories occupied by the Nazis in World War II. The French Resistance were called “terrorists” by the occupiers too. A lasting settlement needs all parties to be treated equally. This includes restitution or compensation for expropriated land, businesses and homes since 1948, to surviving owners and their descendants.
Yayah Sinwar launched his attack without informing his own boss, Haniyeh, let alone Iran. The rest and been largely reactive. This discussion assumes it was all carefully thought through. I don't believe it was. There are no winners, and nobody dares back down.
It is interesting that some commentators cite Ireland. There is in fact an interesting parrallel. The Provisional IRA killed a very similar number of people to those killed by Hamas on Oxtober the Seventh. But the British rraction was not to demolish 70% of buildings in the republic, or level Dublin or Cork. It would not have entered the heads of decent people to think that that would be an acceptable response to a terrorist attack of that size. But to the Israeli regime that seems legitimate. It shows how far Israel has drifted from its rather idealistc origins. It has become a typicaly nasty middle easten regime with no remnant of the enlightenment its founders inherited from Europe.
I like Christopher Hitchens' and Albert Einstein's view on the matter... Right from conception, the creation of Israel created a tension that we are seeing unfold in real time... We will see where it goes... My addition to your comment is to say we can pity Israel, it is horrid to become this evil. We can pity Hamas.... But we cannot act, for we too are weak of heart.
Your comment doesn't stand up imho. For all intents and purposes, hamas is the Gaza government . If the Irish government had committed the attributed acts against England, then I think you would have seen a different, less measured response from the English. The difference is the Irish government was acting against PIRA terrorism like a normal western government.
Rory has a much better understanding of global affairs than the somewhat liberal but surface level understanding Alistair has. I really respected Rory pushing back on the whole "Iran is evil and wants to dominate the middle east with its evil buddies Russia and China". Iran having avoided escalation despite every single act of terror flaunting international law that Israel has committed despite the very public and humuliating nature of it shows more than anything that Iran is a rational actor. Even this whole axis of Russia Iran and China is overstated and more out of convenience. Russia and China are not natural allies and the current alignment of the world order didnt have to be this way
Iran armed Hezbollah to the teeth who then went on to massacre thousands of Muslims in Syria and pose a serious threat to Israel in the North. His downplaying and denialism of Iran's intentions in the middle east are frankly horrifying.
Thanks for asking the right questions, Rory. The fact that both of you felt uncomfortable about perhaps upsetting some people shows just how necessary it is to not treat anyone with kid gloves but to try and balance the emotional aspects of this dire situation with rational thought. Again, thanks for sticking your neck out….
Nothing morally complex at all about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. If a person finds the idea of a people subjugating another people to decades of apartheid and occupation - before subjecting them to a genocide - morally complex, they need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.
Two colonialists masquerading as centrist dads, deciding what's good and bad about middle east conflicts. Alistair doing his best to avoid iraq being mentioned.
Rory Stewart, sir, you've done it again. You have shown how much your analysis and overview is above and beyond of anyone else's. Your questions are spot on. I would add though, as you say that in many ways the october 7 terrorist attack has served the terrorist organisation Hamas' strategic goals, it has also served Netanyahu's, with the following invasion and destruction of Gaza being in his interest.
Hamas found traction because of Israel's terrible discrimination of Palestians. Israel is an apartheid state. And what of the West Bank where Israeli settlers are illegally driving Palestinians off the land? There was little mention of the Israeli right-wing members who have been the driving force and agent provocatuers of unrest. Netanyahu has never wanted a diplomatic solution or a separate Palestinian state. Typical playground bully who plays the victim. And don't forget his neo-con background with the pressure the Israelis put on the Americans to invade Iraq, saying that Iraq was an existential threat first to Israel and then the USA.
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Why don't you mention that almost half of the 41,000 dead in Gaza are Hamas terrorists? One listens to you and thinks that they are women and children? But that's not true. Why don't you say that this ratio is an absolute record for all the other armies of the world that fought in such impossible conditions - the enemy hides underground, using the population as human shields, the enemy uses civilian infrastructure to store weapons, and fire from there?
If I was Fuse Energy I would be wanting to distance myself from this podcast. Unless of course Fuse Energy are apologists for genocide as Campbell appears to be.
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@restispolitics Every time i listen to you two, I feel a bit miserable that neither of you are running the country, or directly advising those who are.
I do think this labour govt can do a lot of good. But they definitely have a PR problem. They are letting tabloids and twitter tell the story 🤢 🤮
I guess I hope Labour are somewhere in those 283k subscribers, and will take some of your advice.
@NAB001 You clearly didn't listen, did you? There were no genocide apologists here. Having actually heard the podcast, I can tell you that Rory and Alistair "understood" the reaction of Israel, but then explained why is wasnt going to solve the problems, and Vile as Hamas are, and Hesbilola, they are not (and never will be) an "existential threat" to Israel, so their attacks are not an excuse for unmitigated violence and civilian slaughter. And Iran ironically is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I wont explain that one, but you can listen with an open mind. These two gentlemen actually do the research on both sides and kindly share it for us with limited time.
I am developing a growing appreciation for Rory's ability to critically examine and challenge the prevailing narratives presented by the establishment.
Alistair is very pro-Israel & pro-Biden. Really clueless.
Alistair is very pro-Israel & pro-Biden. Really clueless.
The narratives Rory Stewart challenges when made by others are most often met with dismissive and childish derision by the likes of Alistair Campbell, who don't consider it necessary to think.
@@m32dave Alastair Campbell has consistently served as a spokesperson for the establishment.
@@annasillanpaa1111Posting it twice doesn't make it true.
No, Alastair, its not a difficult subject to navigate. Let's call out individuals, groups and nations for wrongful, and downright despicable actions. The fear of being forcefully tagged as antisemitic or a terrorist sympathizer shouldn't dissuade one from being nuanced and forthright in conversations around Iran, Israel, Hamas, Palestine, Lebanon and Hezbollah. Rory tries his utmost to present a balanced position and i respect that.
Is it that surprising that the press secretary who helped guide the UK into the Iraq war would not be the voice of reason when it comes to the middle east
i'm afraid alastair's caution is more aligned to power than rory. i found those who are not directly from the israeli right but generally aligned to power will find the subject more and more difficult to navigate: either ming vase it out (stay silent) or say it's problematic.
the bigger global problem however is the precedent it makes for the rule of law. iraq had a legal basis in the preemptive strike argument (whether one finds that legitimate or not it was very thoroughly worked out). bibi however has gone rogue - overstepped too many rules which is dangerous (eg. proportionality, humanitarian law, UN attacks etc.). this will be difficult to legally justify. as soon as there are exceptions to the rule of law i.e. the Westphalian Treaty, there is higher likelihood of a global war. because there's no level playing field - nations will try to make it level themselves and well - there's no stopping it - the consequences are very destructive. that's the bigger problem.
who asked for your opinion?
Viva Rory - articulating what “white, non college educated male voters” can’t.. here’s a weird nuance to binary thinking …. the same people who vote Reform despise Netanyahu and this Israeli extremism - people know when they’re being gaslighted .. whether by CNN/FOX NATO/US.. cos nobody has the courage to be critical of Israel because it’s z automatically anti semitic! Madness!!
@@HappyBob701 Um, what?
What frightens me so much is how terrified even you guys are to speak the truth about Israeli military action.
Campbell so easily believes whatever comes out of Israel / US... Still! Next it'll be claims of "clear and present threat" and 28 minutes.
The Tel Aviv psychos have long arms.
yep absolutely - I have stopped listening to these two. they are far less enlightened than they project themselves to be. the UK is complicit in a genocide, plain and simple. say it, own it
It is very odd
Alastair was really caught out by Rory parroting the Jewish/American lie about Iran being bent on world domination. 😯
Separate point - Iran isn't destroying the "Global Rules And International Order" , the US is by not upholding them , they then become meaningless. Alistair won't admit this because Iraq began the unravelling of the international order.
Hardly - Iran has a number of proxies that have essentially turned Yemen and Lebanon and Gaza into failed states
The old fart will never accept this.
I thought it was interesting when Rory described Israel publicly undermining the UN as "an interesting turning point in the way countries interact with the glocal order". If it was North Korea or Iran or Russia doing the same thing, I rather suspect it'd be far more readily dismissed as simply "a rogue regime outrageously undermining international norms", probably with an "as expected, again" tacked on for good measure.
The same action _can't_ mean different things when done by different countries that you either 'like' or 'dislike'.
@@zak3744 all the people with any voice are clearly weak and spineless. It's a reflection on just how narcissistic people have become, especially those in the spotlight. Whether they are media, politician or any other "leader". The world is run by psychopaths. We all suspected it, now we have to confront the ugly reality. Israel pays big bucks for its talking points, and if they weren't taking the money, they would disclose. Meanwhile, many of the jews for peace who protested in the US went on to lose their jobs. They cant stop this anyway. Israel is on a path to self destruction. I bet neither of them have EVER been to the occupied territories, nor have almost all people who claim to be "experts". Alistair Crooke is a much better source. cant say I agree with him on Ukraine, but on middle east there is no one more knowledgeable than this guy.
I agree with everything you posted, except for the starting point. I think that the beginning of the complete unraveling of the "International Rules-based Order" can be directly tied back to NATO's blatantly illegal bombing campaign in Serbia. The justification was based on blatant fabrications and manipulations of the "facts" on the ground. And, in the end, NATO invented a bogus referendum to steal Kosovo from Serbia.
This wasn't in some remote area of Africa or in Central America. This was in the heart of Europe.
Don’t Palestinians also feel an existential threat? I feel like there is an existential threat for them! Do we not care about them? This conversation understates the horrors inflicted on innocent Palestinians
Why should they feel that when just before October 7th Israel along with Qatar has been funding Gaza for it's economic development, but Hamas has only been using it for military?
Israeli policy doesn't aim to kill all the Palestinians, Hamas' does and they're the governing group in Gaza.
You can certainly claim the occupation and settlement building represent a kind of threat to Palestinian statehood, but that is not an existential threat - which also isn't to say that the real terms threat that Israel faces is greater or lesser than that which the Palestinian people face).
And yet you don't condemn Hamas for initiating the current state of affairs by attacking Israel on Oct 7th ? I feel a great pity for the Palestinians and what they are suffering, yet it was the Palestinians (through Hamas) that started it.
@@billybobthornton9668Okay, I’ll bite, let’s assume all the points you made as true. This does not however give Israel the right to go as far as they went. They should’ve stopped as soon as they hit twice the number of civilian casualties at the very most. They could do this by either being more careful about their military killing bystanders, ensuring they could fight for longer, or by accepting that they wouldn’t achieve every military objective. Doesn’t matter which, but at the point where you did inflict twice the horror, you cannot be the victim anymore.
To be clear, I’m not saying I do or do not agree with any of the points. I am a random dude thousands of miles away, I cannot know the truth around this. However, taking the POV of anyone in that conflict does not justify what Israel ended up doing in the end.
As for your argument, you made a very good point, I was assuming the ongoing colonisation of Palestine by Israel to be an existential threat to Palestinians. But you correctly brought it up that it wouldn’t really be existential, which I tend to agree with. I will think about this, thank you. To be clear, I still think it’s a huge threat, but probably not existential, indeed.
@@johnvaleanbaily246 and before October 7th, literally in September Israel bombed Gaza. Israel has had multiple attacks on Gaza (remember that famous picture of a dead child on the beach?). These are all symptoms of the same problem, Israeli occupation, apartheid and dehumanisation.
Continued expansion of illegal settlements recognised as illegal by the UK continue and displace Palestinians which propped up by US ideological groups (I.e., Christian evangelicals). This is yet again an example of existential threat.
It’s insane that there are so much evidence and a legal basis for condemning and putting right the crimes the Israeli state have previously and continue to commit.
People seem to have no capacity to condemn all things that go against basic humanity. You seem like you are selective and don’t value all life equally.
Why does no one ever talk about the colonists on the West Bank who are occupying territory that is described as illegal occupation as an existential cause of a continued problem there if that area were given back to Palestinians if they could set real borders and a Palestinian state, would that not remove the existential threat to Israel?
No, not necessarily. But it could work as a step toward Israel making peace with its neighbors. Unfortunately, they're not likely to take that step because they've done everything in their power to alienate their neighbors throughout their history. So bridging that gap is going to take generations, if it's even possible.
Israel has openly said it will never give up these areas. This, is the root of the problem now. That and the refugees which Israel expelled in 1948 and in breach of international law never allowed to return - why? It would go against the very idea of Zionism. The expulsion was deliberate.
"Why does no one ever talk about the colonists ..." Good god. Nobody talks about anything else.
Because if they talk about the West Bank they’d had to admit Isreal is a colony that occupiers Palestinians and they’d have to admit they’re actually breaking law, so no they’ll never do that.
@@FireflyOnTheMoon given it's the root cause of all of this I'm not sure it's given anywhere near as much discussion as it deserves. Wasn't even mentioned once in this podcast, for example.
The mainstream behaves as if it all started a year ago, or as if there are two equal sides, rather than coloniser and colonised. Maybe you've only been getting your news from Novara media though?!
Rory is the only reason I watch this channel.
Alistair such is a tone deaf neoliberal it's painful. Rory is constantly making good points about the conflict based on his knowledge of the region and Alistair just cuts him off mid sentence with some complete drivel he's just made up on the spot.
Got to keep his Neoliberal Labour friends including Starmer and the Tony Blair Institute happy.
Totally agree. This is a not a relationship that Rory will benefit from. One side aspires to be an intellectual…the other aspires to being popular.
Aye Rory needs to ditch the idiot.
Yes. AC …’i heard there was a poll in Gaza Rory that Hamas are not popular’ 😂 No thoughy of who, how or if such a poll cld be conducted…
I didn't think Rory's points were good at all. He seems to think that it's only valid for a state to respond to threats with decisive military force if they pose an existential threat. Which is preposterous.
Half an hour conversation and not one suggestion of holding Israel to international law and exacting it through trade embargoes and sanctions. It’s like discussing school shootings but never suggesting changing gun laws……
To push it to do what?
@@-vz- bot malfunction
Britain's imports from Russia totalled over £5bn in the first year of the invasion of Ukraine. There won't be embargos against Israel.
"international law" only applies to countries the US and it's friends don't like.
@@joewilliams8658 Israel is nowhere near as important to our economy
A Rory Stewart masterclass on why intelligence really makes a difference!
My thought is that if you take away a population’s rights and freedoms to a considerable degree over a significant period of time, then those without power will resort to terror. What do you fine guys think of that view? Peter
I think that this is the western fantasy about who Hamas really is and what they want. Furthermore it is a fallacy and an inversion that is at the core of western leaders (and even some Israeli leaders) failure to understand the conflict. The radicalization and fanaticism is what is at the core of the terror. Just because your world view is that all people crave peace and stability does not mean this is what Hamas desires. It is literally the opposite of your assumption.
Centrists do not accept colonisation. They accept all the violence as part of the progress of capitalism. There is much hand wringing but not much ethics. Yet again we are commenting on an Alistair Campbell podcast.
Nonsense. Mandela didn't. Ghandi didn't. African Americans largely didn't. The IRA did, but nothing anywhere near as bad as the Jihadis and never targeted civillians. All these groups accepted political dialogue when it was offered and were willing to compromise. Palestinian leadership not only has no wish to live in peace, they have no incentive to do so either. They're all making too much money off the back of using their people as cannon fodder, maintaining the conflict, and the Palestinian people are too brainwashed to realise it.
Totally agree. Nice comfy western liberals never ask themselves how desperate would they have to feel to take up arms, risk their lives or up root their entire life and flee their home. I always think of the beginnings of the Cuban Revolution and a bunch of civilians arming themselves and attacking that police station. I don’t think these actions and choices are ever taken lightly.
Like noone has said this before. The answer remains as complex as ever. But lets stick with black and white, eh?
you talked for a long time but never mentioned the root cause of the conflict: palestinean people under occupation deprived of their political rights, there are many solutions for this problem including the two states solution or even one state for all, whatever solution is possible will be fair enough to fix this problem. fix your problems with the palestineans, and all other problems will be fixed in no time.
Absolutely right.
And I'd suggest, if we want a path to that, look at what Husam Zumlot has said repeatedly, consistently, hours after October 7th and a year later: there must be an international consensus based on international law, to make the Palestinians AND the Israelis de-escalate and create a peaceful solution...I'd say it would have to be a two state solution, because a one state solution is antithetical to the ethno-nationalist principles on which Israel is based, but upholding international law, particularly in regards to Israel, is the only way.
Which is why I am so angry at the UK government (on both sides of the house), because they seem to be so in thrall to the Isreal lobby that they cannot even move politically towards a real solution. Cowards.
@@AMEENHAI because they love to pretend this conflict started on Oct 7 2023, and not as a British colonial project in 1948
Wow someone who actually reads the history well done @@dmt472
@@tomb020780, what I don't understand is why an International Arms Embargo has not been put in place.
I remember but not in any detail, that this was a near immediate action by the UN?, in the event of regional conflict.
Why has this not be done?
Absolutely... a very convenient line in the sand.
People are not stupid though... and Joe Public knows exactly what's going on.
Has any politician ever said that the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves?
Or say that Palestine has the right to exist? Or that saying Israel has the right to exist is saying ‘white people had a right to colonise brown people ’
Defend themselves from what? The Arabs didn’t want a Jewish state created and attacked, and lost. They do the same thing again and again and expect different results. Accept that Israel has a right to exist in their Jewish homeland. They should have accepted a two state solution long ago. Israel left Gaza and look what happened. Radical islamists don’t want Jews in the Middle East. When will people understand this.
@@SarahKhan-os4yr Jews aren't white. They're Semitic people from the Levant.
Does massacring people at a festival and peaceniks in kibbutzim classify as self defence?
Why we getting involved just let them deal with it, they can destroy each other if they can’t resolve it
Talking about 'Women and children' casualties implies that the lives of adult male civilians are somehow less valuable. Perhaps the belief is that men are better equipped to cope with emotional and physical harm - or are missed less when they are killed. It's a truly offensive phrase that both Alistair and Rory frequently use.
I wondered what that was about - perhaps women and children are still considered definitively non-combatant? Old-fashioned more than offensive I'd say.
Because women and children are unlikely to be combatants. It’s a pretty common idea in the west
@@elinstar6034 It also implies that males killed are likely to be combatants - effectively victim blaming to some degree. ‘Civilians including children were among the casualties’ is surely more appropriate.
While I don't disagree, the reason is that it's a proxy factor. Fighting age men 'could' in theory be fighters, but women and children in Lebanon and Palestine are presumed to be civilians. In reality, you are right, and Israel targets Palestinian men in part purely based on gender at times as "potential combatants".
The preamble apologies from you two here not wanting to upset Israel and their supporters in the genocide they are committing is utterly pathetic, though unfortunately all too commonplace in the Western media. The Israeli government needs to be held to account.
Acknowledging the death and suffering of hundreds of Israeli civilians on the 7th October is not the same as pandering to the Israeli government. Think we need to stop dehumanising on all sides here.
No genocide
Yeah, that was weak sauce. And what followed was equally weak sauce.
Hear hear
this is ultimately an issue of humanity. Speech separates us from animals and these two buffoons here are trying to have a "conversation" about a topic they admittedly literally cannot honestly talk about. That's evolving backwards. Supposed intellectuals too, relative maybe to mainstream western standards.
Sorry but you do not slay the dragon to become the dragon. What happened on 7 Oct was truly horrifying but the genocide of tens of thousands of Palestinian and now Lebanese women and children is totally unacceptable. I grow weary of being told by Government that I too should have this 'iron clad' support for Israel. Well I, and many many others Don't and to be told we should only makes me more angry. We are witnessing a genocide, pure and simple and how can anyone support that?
You are ok with most of the Arab world trying to destroy Israel? If you support Hamas just say it and stop pretending you are horrified by the killing of women and children. Where is your outrage about the genocide of the Uyghers? Your selective outrage shows your antisemitism.
Could not agree more. Never been more angry at our government.
No, it's war. There are casualties regrettably. The fault lays with hamas and Irans proxy war
@@lindontilson471You cannot have a war in an occupied territory. The UN rightfully define Gaza as an occupied territory.
Hamas built a network of tunnels which is bigger than the London Underground. You may remember that in order to keep the population of London safe in the 2nd World War the London Underground was turned into bomb shelters by the govt so that the population of London could shelter from the indiscriminate bombing of the Wehrmacht. The British govt realised that they had a responsibility to protect their citizens from the bombing. But Hamas do not allow their populace to shelter. They do not allow them to seek refuge I. The huge network of tunnels that would keep them safe. In fact they built no bomb shelters for their people. So in short Britain used the underground to protect their people and Hamas use their people to protect their tunnels . It is Hamas who are to blame NOT ISRAEL.
For the first time I got frustrated with the nuance and balance. As an American who has a somewhat informed knowledge of the ME since 1947 I am appalled that the genocide of Palestinians is ignored.
Existential threat to Israel by Hamas does not exist.
Sorry, there is no threat from Hamas?
@@davidgaskin5417 She said existential threat. You know she did, and yet you deliberately misquoted her. Existential threat and threat do not mean the same thing and it is a difference and distinction that cannot be elided.
@@Beeblebrox6868 Existential threat from Hamas (probably) doesn't exist because Israel spends vast amounts of money on defence and technology and has national service so maintains a large army relative to its population. If the military arm of the controlling Mexican political party attacked USA and killed 40,000 Americans (proportionately equivalent), do you think the question of whether or not it was a true existential threat would be a prime determinant in the American response?
What you're implying is that if Israel was weaker, less organised, less technologically developed, and poorer, its response would be more acceptable because the threat would be greater? That's basically suggesting that strong nations need to just suck it up.
Like the Palestinians should just suck it up? @@thelionofgod
@@davidgaskin5417the resistance is always a threat to a coloniser
Shocking bias from Alistair towards Israel. It did not start on 7 Oct. More Palestinian were killed by Israeli soldiers before 7 October in West Bank no Hamas there.
Basically pushing Tel Aviv's line...
Sorry you are wrong, while Hamas dont govern the West Bank they do operate there as do Palestine Islamic Jihad and a couple pother smaller groups.
And Yes the conflict between Arabs and Jews goes way back to the 7th century but really heated up in the 1800's with Hebron & Safed 1834 (month long attack on Jewish community)
Hamas is in the West Bank. It's also in Lebanon. Why do people with zero knowledge feel like they should comment on this matter?
@@Indonesiansurftravel Because a few Hamas people are in the West Bank doesn't give Israel a moral right o steal the land and homes of others there.
@@MrBeesknees95 Anyone has right to comment and it is entirely justifiable to condemn Israel for their evident war crimes.
Note the Freudian slip " the Palestinian problem remains " is that what you really think of the poor displaced people that have been abused by the west in the name of democracy
We all know this didn't start on October 7. I am so sick of media addressing us as if we are stupid and cannot see what is happening.
Maybe the media are right about that.
@@alexandermayakovsky6550 speak for yourself
I'm a big TRiP fan and listen to most episodes but this was an astoundingly poor one, I have to say. I'm all for trying to have a balanced and equal discussion over the isreal/gaza conflict, and I respect that, that is what this is trying to achieve. But this, and other mentions of the conflict in previous TRiP episodes, completely ignores the context of Nakba. Yes Oct 7th was an absolutely horrific event, and yes, isreali's fear for their extinction, but do palestinians not? They've been forced from their homes, had their human rights removed and restricted, men are often kidnapped and arrested without sentance or trial. It is abosutely ridiculous to ignore everything isreal has done to persecute the palestinian people for nearly a hundred years and act as if this is something that started on october 7th.
as they kept saying themselves. they are bound to ‘offend’ if they go too far with any honest criticism of Israeli crimes. it’s sensible self-preservation, if depressing and somewhat nauseating.
@@jamescarr5796
What is nauseating is that they keep having to excuse themselves if they offend anyone by simply talking and exploring different views and opinions regarding this highly sensitive subject. Have you ever been to the region? Probably not like most is us who’s attached to one of the sides simply through emotions.
Mr Nutella, if you came out of your house and every day that you did, your neighbour gestured to you with his thumb, making a semicircle around his throat, that he was going to kill you and your family, the question would not be weather or not to build a wall but how high it would be.
In relation to Nakba that Muslim Arabs of the region speak of… this catastrophe is that there is a non-Islamic state in the region.
You see this is an ideological problem and not a nationalistic one, or nor is it a post-colonial one. The truth of the matter is the most successful colonist influence in this problem is that of Islam and its spread, and its un willingness to retreat, after all Islam is a colonizing force, probably the oldest.
@jasonthomas6106 what if your neighbor making those gestures was actually in your house and you were forced to live next to him in a s*** hole?
@@chrisstorrer Islamic country’s are unable to rise, why ?
Why Is it always everyone else’s fault?
The big four Islamic country’s in the region seemed to have figured it out, and that’s why they wanted to normalise relations with Israel.
This is what HAMAS wanted to destroy on 07/10/24.
Why ?
This conflict did not start on October 7th
🥱
Such a pointless statement lol - everyone is aware of the context
@@MrBeesknees95They really aren’t actions of settlers on West Bank severely unreported
@@MrBeesknees95The only statement that was pointless was your reply as you see by the likes
@@airdee "Likes" = good point? Are you 12?
This is so DEPRESSING!
Alistair & Rory have been at the heart of what has gone on in the world over the last 20 yrs and with all of the clear evidence of absolute failure of policy, the penny still hasnt dropped for them and these guys are the "moderates" in comparison to whom we have leading the Tory & Labour parties.
Their judgement is so bad, it is despairing.
Listen to this Rory, I am not Muslim or from the Middle East, I am from NW England and I am completely outraged at Israel, the US and UKs behaviour in the region and appalled at the ongoing genocide in Gaza - STOP TRYING TO SAY ONLY MUSLIMS CARE ABOUT HUMANS IN THE MIDDLE EAST!!
Moreover, your analysis is insane at this point, after the repeated failures and millions of lives lost in the last 2 decades, how can you be still talking about Western military interventions as a way of managing issues. Rory, you flirt with rationality but then always ensure the listeners know that you're ideological in your view of the resistance forces - I guess we cannot take the ideological colonialist out of most Tories, even when empirical evidence suggests black and white view points resolve nothing and only lead to racism, colonialism, empire and human suffering. You still serve the empire and not the progressive path.
Spot on, bravo
Absolutely,they just sound like old colonialists !!! completely devoid of any feeling for Palestinians people or the wider region in general and treat Israel as an unquestioningly legitimate rational player in the middle east
💯
the real problem has always been the fact that people like these two had a voice at all. They are not even intelligent the way they speak. They are not hardworking or honest. They are not fair nor knowledgeable. How come these kinds of people get into positions where they are even being listened to by the general public? I am looking at the comments and most people realize this but somehow we are all here under their shitty podcast video talking about them. Something to think about
criticizing Iran for mentioning that October 7 was the begining of the genocide without context about what happened before while also doing the exact same when it comes to the Israeli side always bringing up October 7 as if they were not killing and displacing Palestinians for decades prior
Disgusting isn’t it?
Exactly, when has western media every spoken about Palestine? The only reason people are so informed now is social media revealed Israel true nature and led people to learn.
I am from Northern Ireland and there are many parallels to be drawn. In NI, those in the centre of politics, supported by the many, eventually brought together those at either extreme, with the process taking decades. The Palestine/Israel situation is even more extreme than the NI situation ever was, and my view is that the issue will remain unresolved until the people on both sides distance themselves from the politics of extremists, both within and without governments.
They can't, the degree of radicalisation within Israel is extremely intense, and the Palestinians have almost no power while the Israelis have no incentive or desire to reach an agreement. You are somewhat conflating Gaza with Palestine, but the West Bank is very different, and indeed what came before was different.
The reality is that NI was a radically different situation, with two sovereign states, one on either side, and a lot of international pressure. The UK was the single greatest target of ECHR complaints at the time, and there was a lot of pressure from the US.
But more importantly, for all its misdeeds, the UK government was a radically different kind of government to that of Israel, and the partisanship within NI was in a sense parochial to that area. The dynamics were utterly distinct.
The one time a peace process really existed between Israel and the Palestinians was extremely tenuous, and ended in an assassination, and since then things have gotten so much worse. But this conflict goes back to the mandate of Palestine, and "blew up" around the time of the partition plan of 47, when the west, mainly the US frankly, gave most of the country to the Jewish minority who had been migrating into the region much more rapidly in recent decades. They did this in violation of the international rule concerning the right of self-determination of peoples, without consulting the Palestinian population or regional Arab powers.
This led to a war which Israel won, and the expulsion of much of the Palestinian population, followed by further wars, more land seizures, annexations, occupation and the settlements. Today the Palestinians exist in tiny enclaves, split apart from one another, and the larger of the two is increasingly being taken over by Israel, with the Palestinian population largely subject to a different legal regime to the Jewish, something multiple international humanitarian organisations have described as apartheid.
illegal detentions, extrajudicial killings, forced movement and collective punishment have been recurrent, and in some cases normalised across decades and generations.
There is no sentiment in Israel towards a peace process, no real international pressure, and the Palestinians have no power whatsoever. So there is nothing driving a process, and the regime is vehemently opposed to one. Instead the reality is one of gradual ethnic cleansing.
It's much more like the US period of westward expansion than it is like Northern Ireland.
@@simonkapadia7582Clearly you are not from the north of Ireland / NI. Mark says there are many parallels to be drawn, not that the Irish and Palestinian cause are the same. And he's completely right.
I think your main main misconception is that it was and is still a Catholic / Protestant parochial conflic when in reality it was about the occupation and eradication of the Irish people and their culture.
My parents generation at one point wouldn't have considered peace a realistic prospect. You lack any knowledge of just how badly the British treated the Irish over 800 years long before ECHR existed. Displacement of Irish from their land and planting British protestant settlers by force, saying they would offer political recognition only to back track starting more civil unrest, causing famine to control the population, going after the "head of the hydra" only to radicalise more people who wanted to get on with their lives, using internment where you could be held indefinitely without trial, lack of legal representation with no ability to vote, and just fui the longest military operation in British history was in Ireland. Any of this sounds familiar?
Yes they absolutely can be brought together. Is it going to happen in this generation? No. It has been a long 800 years of British occupation in Ireland and the peace process in 1998 is only the later end of this story.
You are right in that Palestine has no power except to lash out with acts of terror and Israel has no incentive to cooperate but this is yet again another parallel. The British came under significant international pressure especially from the US and this is exactly what we need from them today to stop this war.
Stopping the violence is always the first step.
@@simonkapadia7582. lots to unpack here. Hmmm. Palestinians have no power? That’s not Israel’s doing. That’s their elected government, a terrorist org, one of the worst in the world. Israel left them thriving businesses in 2005 and Hamas and the PLO destroyed them all, including the buildings. Israel has tried on 5 occasions to make peace and the Arabs refuse to deal honestly. Oct 7, 2023 happened during one such agreement. Terrorists tends to attack when they’re out of money. They call for ceasefires when they are in danger of losing their supporters. There’s no such place as Palestine so you can’t conflate it. The West Bank and Gaza are internationally recognized as being part of Israel, regardless of what people say. Even the courts are issuing unfounded statements that carry no weight and contradict what the legal status really is. You can’t change borders just because you don’t like a country’s politics or their leader. This conflict is a religious one. And the Koran says that Islam may not negotiate with infidels, and it decrees that all infidels must be killed. That would seem to me to be a difficult group to make a deal with. The peace agreement may have ended in an assassination of Yitschak Rabin, but the peace treaty has held with Egypt. Israel does a lot of trade with Egypt. The US did not give most of the country to Israel. That’s ridiculous! Think about what you just said! Who had the mandate for Palestine? The British. And because Churchill wanted to thank the Hashemites for helping defeat the Ottomans, he gave 70% of the land that was supposed to be Israel’s, to the Hashemite kingdom and called it Transjordan (Jordan). Israel nonetheless accepted whatever land they could get, but the Arabs followed the Koran, which said there can be no Jew in your midst. 700,000 Arab refugees resulted because the 5 surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel the next day. Golda Meir told them not to leave. The Arabs who stayed are now Israel’s citizens. The surrounding Arab countries refused to absorb their co-religionists. When all the other Arab countries heard Israel was formed, they kicked out 800,000 Jews from their countries. There is no violation of international rules or law by Israel. The Arab countries violated international law. Look up what “uti possidetis juris” means. That’s a law to prevent a new state from being taken over on day one, the way the Arabs planned was going to happen. The Naqba was all the Arab’s doing, as was Deir Yassin where the Arabs lied about Jews raping Arab women. Israel did not occupy land or seize land or expel Arabs from their land. The borders of 1948 were their borders. It was Egypt who annexed Gaza and Jordan who annexed Judea and Samaria. In 1967, Israel retrieved what was theirs originally. You don’t have the foggiest notion of what apartheid is. It does not apply to Israel for many reasons, chief among them is that this is not about whites and blacks, as was the case in South Africa. This was always land of the Israelites or Canaanites, and it is ancestral land to them. If anything, apartheid is carried out by Hamas in the way they deny food and shelter from Gazans. Lebanon is apartheid because there are people living there who cannot become citizens for generations and cannot gain entrance to certain professions like MD. There is no forced movement of Arabs. It’s the Israelis who moved, by force, other Israelis out of Gaza in 2005. You’re a fool if you think there’s no desire by Israel to have peace. They’ve tried 5x and what did they get? Attacked for giving up land for peace. If the Arabs spent as much time and money improving the lives of Gazans rather than building tunnels and training people for combat, and release the hostages, the bombardment would stop.
Unfortunately neither the Israeli public nor the Palestinian public want peace. They can't bring their politicians in from the extremes until they themselves come in from the extremes.
@@conorrobb9167 Agreed. As a South African I see more parallels with our apartheid history, especially during the 1980's under President PW Botha . The immense govt internal repression of black people, blanket censorship , military raids on ANC resistance based in neighbouring countries, the assassinations of ANC leaders in & outside South Africa using bombs, poison etc. & of course the legislated racism of the apartheid system. Social pressure forced Britain & the US to embargo South Africa (to cripple it financially), which ultimately forced South African to negotiate with the ANC.
Rory’s “existential threat” argument gets right to the core of my opinion right now.
There’s multiple additional details to it, but the core of it is: Israel is a strong military state in the region with vast international backing. It’s not going to disappear, on the contrary, as we see today, it’s quickly gaining territory. Using the horrific military actions they did is inexcusable, and will be go down in history as one of the horrible tragedies of our shared history.
Yes, Israel _did_ have the right to defend itself, and I was comfortable supporting the counter-attack against Hamas UNTIL THEY PASSED 2x the civilian casualty count. Surely when you kill twice the number of people you lost, any sane human would take a step back and question what they’re doing. Anything after is simply seeing Palestinians as inferior to Israelis and deciding that all that tragedy is meaningless to you.
This is an oversimplified version of what I think, there’s many more layers on top of it, but none of which tip the balance into Israel’s favour.
Are you actually suggesting that, and let's assume the Hamas-provided numbers are correct (they're lies), that Israel should have stopped its offensive against the Hamas terrorists and state as soon as the Palestinian casualty numbers hit 2x Israelis? This is not how wars or reality work. Has any war ever worked like that? Should it be enforced in a court? Is this the way humans should always fight wars? Why should Israel fight to these silly rules when no-one else ever has or ever will do?
@@1adamuk I am not saying Israel should or should not do anything. I am saying once that happened, our support for Israel should have stopped immediately. If they want to fight further, well, not great for humanity, but it’s their country.
But you cannot claim to be defending yourself once you hit that scale of counteroffensive. At that point you are effectively waging war against Palestine. Which is or is not something we want to support, depending on one’s opinion. That’s why I’m saying that the West should have stopped their support for Israel as soon as the civilian casualty count tipped that much, and the US, UK, France, etc. should’ve figured out if they’re comfortable supporting a war of conquest against Palestine.
EDIT: P.S. Even assuming that Hamas lies about the numbers, they cannot possibly be over an order of magnitude exaggerated. This would still put Palestinian casualties way past that 2x point.
@@1adamukGaza was an open air prison, it was and is occupied territory - you do not go to war in an occupied territory. Rather than a war it is more plausibly a genocide. To ethnically cleanse Gaza was always the most obvious long term goal of Israel (whether you define Israel as fascist or not -it is impossible to argue that it hasn’t always been an apartheid state).
@@JohnCox-ut3cv I respect your opinion in this case, however… (for anyone reading the thread) I’d like us to take a step back and look at the barest of facts in this thread. Let me be clear, I think all of these conversations around much more nuanced questions of humanity and ethics are HUGELY important. However, I’d like to take a more analytical approach here.
Because, the point I’m trying to make is, even if I try to take Netenyahu’s point of view, I cannot see why we should continue supporting Israel’s defensive or offensive capabilities. So, painting Israel in the absolute best light, and taking the most hardcore pro-Israel position that is not fascistic, I cannot find a good argument for us still supporting them with weapons.
The definition of whether the Gaza strip was an open air prison or not, etc. is of course important to debate, but in this context it does not really matter. Because we are soo far past the point at which this stopped being a defensive effort and started being an offensive war against Palestine.
EDIT: P.S. In anticipation of this counterargument, I am yet again not saying that Israel should or should not continue the war. It’s their military, their country, they can do whatever they want. What I’m saying is we in the west have no right to be supporting Israel in this war _by default_. As in, to maintain the status quo of us helping keep the defensive veil over Israel while they conduct attacks outside of their territory, I would want Keir Starmer to openly declare war onto Palestine. Basically to acknowledge the situation. Then naturally the people might or might not like that, and he will or will not get voted out. But the way the politicians are framing this situation is hugely misleading at best and outright manipulation at worst.
@@JohnCox-ut3cvI understand an apartheid state to mean strict separation such as existed in South Africa or the Jim Crow laws that existed in the southern US. Nobody is forced to ride in the back of the bus in Israel, there are no separate lunch counters or toilet facilities, etc. There are Arab Muslims in the Knesset and they have the vote there are senior military figures who are Druze, the Israeli government before this one included an Islamist party. How is this apartheid or is it just a matter of taking the nastiest words in the political lexicon (along with Nazi) and affixing them to the Israeli state as a way of denying that state’s right to exist? This is not to deny the illegality of the occupation of the West Bank and the viciousness of the settlers. Your argument is not only black and white it is a distortion maybe there’ll be something resembling peace when the lies and distortions stop on both sides.
Would it not be fair to say that Israel actions are an existential threat to Palestine and Lebanon?
Before oct 7th 2023 or after it?
@@antonydavis2764Before
No, if Israel wanted to, there wouldn't be any Lebanese or Palestinians, it's not for lack of ability but lack of intention, sadly it's exactly the opposite with Israel's neighbors.
@@Giss.ivan1234 classic jingoistic Israeli talking point which is flatly incorrect. Israel does not have the capability to wipe these populations out. They haven't even been able to wipe out Hamas.
@@IanDoesMagic ....yet. Perhaps they in fact DO have the capability, but they needed the pretext to use that capability without becoming a complete pariah state. Oct 7 gave them a pretext, and they are taking it with both hands. My worry is how far their current allies will allow them to push this pretext before acting in a meaningful way to stop it.
Rory: 10/10 analysis of the situation. This is an individual who is *not* chained to a party political position or government.
It's not about being chained to a party or an ideology. There are substantial holes in Rory's logic, per usual. He makes sweeping assumptions and generalizations and then doggedly defends them, because he thinks the world is a meeting of the gd Oxford Debating Society.
Unchained by Alistair’s standards, but the wider context of decades of occupation was barely touched upon.
@@richrollin4867 precisely. Very true.
@@bencarroll1122 and what holes do you refer to?
Ehhh 8/10 he definitely has a more complex and nuanced less liberal establishment view of the situation like Alistair. But he also negates some big points like Iran and Hezbollah are not much weaker than thought - it’s Israel having the US right by its side on a leash because the Israel lobby controls the US and all its other vassal states. Without talking about this influence you can’t fully understand the bravado that Israel is showing.
I've always felt that AC was the weaker and less informed or nuanced speaker in this podcast, and this episode further reinforced my feeling feeling. I appreciate Rory calling out the peddling of Netanyahu talking points.
Absolutely, he is about as informed as Karl Pilkington
For the record im not gonna underestimate the trauma of 1948 for the people of palestine, and all violence put upon them since. 🙄
Including Palestinian Jews?
@@jakeforder9435 There is catholic Palestinian, muslim Palestinians, etc; why single out the jews?
@@firstnamelastname9631 Because Palestinian Jews changed their name to Israelis. So do you include them as having endured trauma?
Exactly. My family are historically Christian from the levant @@firstnamelastname9631
@@jakeforder9435Did they have to flee their land or die?
Rory was on fire this episode, such good points all the way along
I think Rory is actually starting to see past the American foreign policymakers' paranoid view of the world.
Full marks to Rory for his contextual intro. Too often a country is named rather than its government or factions. It's a lazy identifier, like capitals ('Beijing says ..'). Hopefully we view the citizens of Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, et al with equal compassion.
In your dreams
13:06 it's actually more like 16,400 children that have been killed. if you went to a funeral for every day for each child, it would take you 45 years to attend all the funerals
Yes don't forget to mention they count as children people up to 19yo. How many of them are combatants is unknown. So this statistic without context (if it is true at all) is irrelevant
@@blabla12654you need help. Even if a significant percentage of that number were combatants that still leaves 10,000+ dead civilian children. Sadly you are not the only one who finds that irrelevant
@@flo-gr1gmleaving your personal insult aside, how did you make this stats assessment?
@@blabla12654 oxfam published 30th September 2024: ‘Conservative figures show that more than 6,000 women and 11,000 children were killed in Gaza by the Israeli military over the last 12 months.’
Save the children: ‘Since the 7 October attacks in which 33 children were killed in Israel, more than 13,800 children have been killed in Gaza and 113 in the West Bank, and over 12,009 children have been injured in Gaza and at least 725 children in the West Bank, according to the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) and the Ministry of Health in Gaza.’
Israeli attacks since 1937,
Haifa Massacre1937. Jerusalem Massacre 1937
Haifa Massacre 1938. Balad al-Sheikh Massacre
1939. Haifa Massacre 1939. Haifa Massacre 1947.
Abbasiya Massacre 1947. Al-Khisas Massacre
1947. Bab al-Amud Massacre 1947. Jerusalem
Massacre 1947. Sheikh Bureik Massacre 1947
Jaffa Massacre 1948. Khan Yunis Massacre
1956. Jerusalem Massacre 1967. Sabra and
Shatila Massacre 1982. Al-Aqsa Massacre 1990.
brahimi Mosque Massacre 1994. Jenin Refugee
Camp April 2002. Gaza Massacre 2008-2009
Gaza Massacre 2012.Gaza Massacre 2014 Gaza
Massacre 2018-2019. Gaza Massacre 2021 Gaza
Genocide 2023
Thanks for researching and bringing to light Israel's historic war crimes and massacres of the people of Palestine.
During the American Civil War, 2% of the population died.
@simondavies6270 it is a very one sided view.
@@grahamt5924tbf it's a pretty one sided conflict.
Partial list of muslim violence against Jews
1834 Safed mass (before Zionism existed)
1920 Tel Hai mass.
1920 Nebi Musa mass.
1920 Jerusalem mass.
1921 Jaffa mass.
1921 Jerusalem mass.
1921 Petah Tikvah mass.
1924 Jerusalem mass.
1929 Jerusalem mass.
1929 Hebron mass.
1929 Safed mass.
1929 Kfar Dorom mass.
1931 Black Hand mass.
1933 Black Hand mass.
1933 Jaffa mass.
1933 Haifa mass.
1936 Jaffa mass.
1938 Tiberias mass.
1947 Fajja mass.
1947 Jerusalem mass.
1947 Haifa mass.
1948 Yavne mass.
1948 Yehiam mass.
1948 Yazur mass.
1948 Arab War
1948 Kfir Etzion mass.
1948 Hadasa mass.
1948 Tel Aviv mass.
1948 Haifa mass.
1948 Ramie mass.
1948 Kfar Sava mass.
1948 Mitzpe mass.
1948 Atarot mass.
1948 Tel Aviv mass.
1948 Tel Aviv mass.
1948 Jewish Agency mass.
1948 Faluja mass.
1948 Tiberias mass.
1948 Ein Harod mass.
1948 Pinna-Safed mass.
1948 Nitzanim mass.
1948 Gaza mass.
1948 Acre mass.
1948 Jerusalem mass.
1948 Ben Yehuda mass.
1948 Gush Etzion mass.
1948 Rehovot mass.
1948 Hadassah mass.
1951 Arab Revolt
1956 Suez blockade
1967 Six Day War
1967 - 70 War of Attrition
1968 Athens
1969 Zurich
1970 Munich
1970 Swiss Air
1970 Avivim School mass
1970 Dawson's Field Hijacking
1971 Istanbul
1972 Munich mass
1973 Yom Kippur War
1974 Maalot mass
1975 Savoy Hotel mass
1976 Entebee Hijacking
1978 Coastal Road mass
1978 First South Lebanon War
1982 First Lebanon War
1985 Achille Lauro Hijacking
1985 Second South Lebanon War
1985 El Al
1985 Neve Shalome Synagogue
1987 - 1993 First Intifada
1991 Iraq Scud Missle Attack
1992 Buenos Aires Explosion
2000 - 2004 Second Intifada
2006 Second Lebanon War
2023 Gaza War
2023 Hezbollah
2024 Iran
20.33 rory says hamas, hezbollah and iran are unbelievably awful. Should have listed Israel too.
It would have made sense to add Israel’s disregard for every law body in the world.
Alistair sounding very “mainstream media “ on this one…
Yeah he mostly gets in the way, probably intentionally, of Rory's superb articulations
Alistair is correct, you can live in delusional fantasy about the Middle East if you like but reality bites
Is it Fox, or Russia today you prefer? Most mainstream media reports 90% Palestinian suffering, 10% the real reasons, if that.
Wow, Rory surprised me with his nuance and understanding of the situation. Alistair just repeated talking points, which is no surprise, this dude helped bring about the Iraq war and wrote the fake 45 min dossier.
I can’t believe there was no mention of Israel’s colonisation and occupation of Gaza, in understanding the attitudes of the surrounding countries to Israel. In no point in history has a colonised people or it’s neighbours not been hostile to colonisers. North America was colonised over 150yrs. You mention everyone group involved in the region ignoring the elephant in the room, colonisation, and wonder ‘how can we get everyone to get along’.
Israel pulled out of Gaza completely in 2005 and Hamas got elected there. Its not an "occupation" thats just daft, I mean Egypt controls Gaza's southern border, not Israel. Hamas has received billions upon billions and instead of doing anything constructive for the Palestinians they spent that money on terror tunnels, rockets, missiles and turned it into a terror statelet. They chose to do that when they could have chosen a much better path, Hamas are utterly utterly despicable. Even their own leader said recently "the deaths in Gaza are a necessary sacrifice". What chance do these people have. All this when they had their own elected govt and were no longer occupied for the last 19 years. Also your comparison with North America is so bizarre, the native Americans were never once, not ONCE offered a state of their own. They were utterly subdued and conquered. The Palestinians were offered a state in 1948 and chose two things, firstly to reject having a state of their own and secondly to concentrate all their efforts on attacking and annihilating the jews. Really no comparison. If Palestine had accepted a state in 1948 and worked towards cooperation and friendship with the nascent state of Israel the entire region might have been in a far better place.
What's the solution?
@@gordonaddie3107 please come up with some new lies? The uk government positions is Gaza is under siege along with everyone else. You say Israel pulled out of Gaza , what you mean is they stopped their illegal occupation.
Palestinians offered a state? AFTER they were colonised, ffs…..what a load of white supremest colonising rubbish.
Fine, say Germany offered half of their country to form a new Israel, would you accept that?
@@justin3606-j8l international law, just no one wants to make Israel obey it
@@gordonaddie3107 That's horrific ignorance you're peddling there through the mechanism of decontextualising, framing, and in some cases frankly outright lies. Not least about the 1947 partition plan. You very clearly have a partisan perspective and suffer from selective empathy, a lack of critical reasoning skills and a great deal of ignorance.
I would like to hear Rory and Alister’s opinion on the recent Al Jazeera piece about media bias towards Israel and the many failures of outlets like the BBC and CNN
The BBC is markedly anti-Israel. Sure not as hard core as Al Jazeera, but any argument that BBC is Zionist the you are way way off the objective center.
so would I but they won't !
Al Jazeera lol.. the nerve
@@Loudeboss More honest than the BBC.
I'd like to know why Al Jazeera no longer broadcasting I'm uk.
First RT, now Al J.
Seems uk want to control the message.
I know I can still watch both online
how a year has changed this podcast - once a space of enlightened, balanced, insightful conversation, or so it seemed. I can barely bring myself to listen anymore and in fact tend to just delete in the feed. the UK and US are deeply, profoundly implicated in a genocide. and yet this is not spelled out here in ways that suggest any genuine ownership over this reality. the arrogance and disgrace of Blair's Middle Eastern ventures evidently remains at the heart of the establishment, now wrapped in the charm of articulate podcasting. It remains, however, a betrayal to the public. The Uk is on the wrong side of history, again.
Hear hear
Rory has a good picture of the psychology of the various players in this tragedy.
Surprised to see that Rory is much more nuanced and on point on this than Alastair.
I'm generally a fan of Alastair, but his POV of this is very representative of the classic, hawkish US neo-con approach to foreign policy that drove Iraq and Afghanistan disasters.
I don't think it's a surprise given his history as a neo-Con supporter.
Yep
I think Alistair knows this is Rorys turf and he left the field to him
Like myself Rory has lived and worked in Islamic/Arabic areas of the world. Gives you a perspective you can't get if you just ingest mostly western media unquestioningly.. Iranians are a beautiful and ancient people, the current (now very old) government is the issue. Personally I think eventually the Iranian people will prevail and the old guard will just fade away... Give it 30 years..
@@yahalimu It's all so heartbreaking. I know beautiful and wonderful people from all of these places - Americans, Brits, Lebanese, Israelis, Iranians... I've never met a single person from any one of these places who, if given a gun, would go and kill someone from the "other side."
It's so infuriating to watch our governments and "leaders" drag us through this, in pursuit of their agendas..
Rory is spot on about Hamas' fears of the marginalisation of Palestine during the Abraham Accords.
Sure but being butthurt isn't an excuse to go on a murderous rampage. How does granny grape and baby abduction help anything?
All the pumping up of Iran being "a major and significant threat to the world and the Gulf " is to provide the US military industrial complex with yet another huge stimulus for weapons sales.
They must be loving it!
Expect some wild celebratory partying this Xmas season.
This is what the West is so damned complicit in & are weirdly allied with over any real thought of peace & rationality.
Campbell needs to listen to Stewart's analysis of Iran. He's been up close and personal with all the different flavours of Shia Muslim when governing in Iraq. ( iean he kind of did the whole pith helmet thing by waltzing in to that job - but it's miles better than anything Campbell knows). Iran is a complex country with it's own cotext and history, it's criminal how illiterate you all are about it.
Exactly!
Let's not forget 9/11, the atrocity caused that day on US soil unleashed invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Decades and unimaginable deaths later, are those countries any better off and does the US feel any safer? History is repeating.
Completely different story. Those were offensives on the other side of the world with questionable motives (Iraq). This is a war against enemies on the country's doorstep and on oct 7, inside it. So unless, you thesis is 'all war useless', irrelevant. And yes of course war is bad but when you must fight, you fight
9/11 pales into insignificance next to October 7th.
As a proportion of the total population Isreal suffered the equivalent of 36,000 Americans being slaughtered on 9/11.
If 9/11 had been the slaughter of 36,000 Americans does anyone really believe America wouldn't have used WMD against the perpetrators?
@@itamarsharon Irrelevant that the two belligerents are located right next to each other. Otherwise Pakistan and India might as well just go to war right now because both happen to have their country in the wrong place.
@@itamarsharon war waged by the apartheid state against the people it oppresses
Despite you both saying this will upset people, I found this to be a very nuanced conversation on the Mideast
That’s why it’ll upset almost everyone.
Nuance is the ultimate sin in our polarized, clickbait meme-driven world where you are absolutely right and your opponent is both a moron and acutely evil.
50% of the discussion yes. Campbell is always 2 seconds away from blurting out 'regime change!'
I shouldn't have been surprised that Alastair was taking the legacy Right-atlanticist position, but I was surprised that Rory was the one to push back on it.
It's so refreshing to hear parties talk about the Middle East (specifically Rory), who actually have in-depth knowledge of the region. What is alarming is the number of leading politicians who are happy to make bold statements about the region but have no real knowledge.
Yes I could listen to Rory all day.
Even he is missing impoetant historical facts.
They have both made some factual errors that contribute to negative views about Israel .
@@markeburne5106 And that's fair enough. He's not pretending to be an authoritative voice and took pains to say that at the beginning, acknowledging that his was an opinion from the outside.
The important thing is to be able to have this conversation, because the discourse is almost entirely dominated by absolutist positions that stifle out any chance of us reaching a balanced view. One side unquestioningly supports all of Israel's claims and neglects to comment on the excessive civilian deaths they have caused, while the other only considers the history of oppression by Israel on Palestinians relevant and ignores the agency of other actors in the region. I'm not saying these sides are equal. One of them has clearly had far more influence on Western media and governments. It simply makes dialogue impossible because there are very few people prepared to have their positions challenged.
We don't necessarily need an awareness of all the historical facts (although it is helpful) to be able to come to a nuanced understanding of the situation today. Being able to discuss it is the main thing.
@anat6973 Get real. Illegal occupation of land for 57 years, an apartheid state, refusal by Netanyahu to countenance a 2 state solution, and a total indifference to civilian casualties have affected public perceptions of Israel far more than any omissions by a couple of podcasters.
Hamas has attempted to negotiate since October 7. The Israeli government's line is no negotiations until the hostages are released and there is an unconditional surrender. That isn't negotiating.
I’m sure the nazis were willing to negotiate as we closed in on them.
Yes and no, there have been multiple rounds of negotiation, the Israeli press have reported that Netanyahu has sabotaged each deal that has come close to being accepted. In effect, there *are* negotiations, but they aren't allowed to succeed.
Netanyahu has said that it doesn't matter if the hostages are released or not, the genocide will go on, relatives of the hostages have been attacked by Right Wing thugs for demonstrating.
Is it just me that thinks it’s the most basic thing ever to understand that hamas’ attack on oct7 ( which is most definitely wrong as civilians were killed ) was because of an apartheid occupation by Israel it’s not rocket science. Iran, hezbollah, houthis all have issue with Israel simply because of this occupation it is not rocket science it’s very simple end the occupation and hamas oct7 never happens
8:52 well done. Good pushbacks trying to make a clear understanding of the dynamics.
It is interesting that the past 'world experience' of these two fine gents seems to have influenced their views so profoundly. Whilst Rory has a very good grasp of the Palestine issue (a 'world' event), Alistair is quite different. Although I am not a Brit and live far from the UK, Alistair always seems 'on point' as far as UK politics is concerned (as is Rory), but he appears to have a major 'blank' as far as some 'world' issues are concerned, where they are outside the purely political sphere. I am afraid he displayed this in the Iraq War conflict, and he is doing so again in the Palestinian issue, seemingly being easily taken in by Western and Israeli propaganda - many of his statements in this discussion displays this naivety very starkly.
Agree with Rory's take on the Israel-Palestine conflict. What is omitted is the illegal occupation of Palestine and human rights abuses committed by Israel prior to the 7th October. This the view of the vast majority of the world as we can see by UN votes. It is childish to refer to the Iranian government as a regime; similarly the region should be referred to as West Asia not the Middle East.
Agree 100%. Rory is seen as an expert but he clearly has a colonialist hat on his head.
They also failed to comment that while Israel has been massacring civilians, Iran attack them and killed no one. The Arab nations have show more restraint but then again we all know what Israel’s ultimate jen0cidle plan is.
There are only so many aspects of the conflict you can fit into a ~30-minute conversation, many of which are axiomatic. I believe he spoke in more detail about these things on Sam Harris's podcast.
@@dannyclub09 the thing is the colonisation and occupation is important, the situation is frequently presented as Palestinians and Arabs just being hostile. You can’t analyse why groups are doing what they do without understanding the situation of the Palestinians in the first place
Illegal occupation. I guess you would consider the Allied occupation of Germany during WWII as an illegal occupation as well. Are you really that daft? This is absurd to think any country would allow a terrorist group to launch missiles at it without retaliation. Israel has every right to protect its people and its right to exist.
If the Germans had of landed in England and it was still under German rule would you feel you had the right to fight back against them . If that fight didnt get anywhere what would you do . If your children and families were treated the way Palestinian families have been treated since the 60's what would you do.
It’s so much more complex than that analogy. No doubt the Palestinians see it that way though.
@@normanwolfe7639 Its really not more complex than that , people just want to make seem that way . What would you do in that situation?
@@kevinbermingham6186 it would be horrific. It is horrific! But I don’t believe the Germany analogy is the same. I wish it was. The Israel scenario involves claims to the land and sanctioning by the United Nations along with everything else that goes along with it. The Germany analogy is black and white.
But what do I know. This has been going on for so long with no end in site and as Rory said, I am not Israelis nor Palestinian.
I’m my mind it should be a One State solution. Live together like other pluralistic countries. Northern Ireland eventually figured it out.
I’m babbling and should just shut up.
Campbell has no idea what he's talking about. Just trotting out decades old establishment talking points that are always used to justify this.
I suspect that he knows more than you have forgotten. Goodbye.
Agree, strange isn't it? Seems totally awol
@@TrevorBarre lick better
At last ... take note everybody..... this is the sort of current affairs program we all need...
Sorry but Alistair has less than no credibility on any of this considering Iraq and middle east, if it wasnt for Rory no one would listen, hes the only one that talks sense regarding international relations. Alistair makes up is opinion like any arm chair uncle... another terrified to say Isreal have went far, far too far
Alistair is just a dummy for Rory to school, that's how this podcast works
Yet again, incredibly impressed with Rory's pragmatism and ability to look past the bias & propaganda.
If Hamas had only attacked Israeli military on 7 October, that would have been understandable as they are the occupying power. Attacks on civilians was a huge mistake as well as being a war crime. By the same token, Israel killing thousands of civilians is also war crime and in time will be regarded as a huge mistake, with their reputation trashed and their future security weakened. The fact they are now applying the same tactics in Lebanon is appalling. Hundreds have been killed, with no distinction of whether they support Hezbollah or not. Vast numbers of Lebanese have been driven from their homes. Netanyahu’s Israel is out of control and is seen, with some justification, to be a pariah state and a regional menace.
As for Iran, despite the current awful regime, seems no worse than Saudi Arabia and the Iranian people are renowned for their humanity.
Keep in mind the IDF had been deployed to supporting annexing the West Bank and way from Gaza.
Rory was doing so well and then equated Hezbollah and Iran (saying they are horrible) with their thousands of people. As at today Israel has committed a terrorist attack on three thousand in Lebanon and bombed and killed over a thousand Lebanese civilians. Who is horrid. It is Israel or will you distinguish Netanyahu?
Why are they so blind to the decades old apartheid in Israel and the self proclaimed fascists in the Israeli cabinet?
Great Fuse Energy advert at the beginning. Hopefully I win so I can give the books to my nan for suitable log fire material since Labour scrapped the winter fuel allowance 😂 📚🔥
What role is the UK playing exactly? Why on earth are we involved in the air defence of Israel, shooting down Iranian rockets for the defence of Israel, but doing nothing to shoot down rockets fired by Israel in the defence of others?
UK can't go against it's parent empire - the US
EXACTLY,
because the RAF need to get their pilots some experience to stay relevant... duh
Didn't MI5 just say they had thwarted multiple terrorist plots from Iran. We need the intelligence support
Because Israel is our ally? Of course we aren't going to defend Iran, Hamas or Hezbollah.
I think the consensus today is that the first indian war for freedom (also known as the Indian mutiny) was just that a freedom movement. During that struggle horrible things were done by the Indians to the English and today we condemn those things whilst understanding that the Indians were under occupation.
I am a 3rd generation British Indian secular Muslim and I can’t think of anything worse than living under Hamas.
I don’t want to find myself defending them but they are ‘under occupation’.
When there is a two state solution and USA stops funding Israel, you will find me marching for Israel if they are attacked for no apparent reason by their neighbours.
Me, too.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, it is not under occupation. The reason there is no two-state solution is because Palestinian Arabs have consistently refused one and instead waged war against Israel. Moreover, Hamas is a genocidal entity specifically calling for all Jews to be vanquished
Very interesting to hear your perspective.
@@jakeforder9435 Israel controls all aspects of life in Gaza - how much electricity there is, who can leave, who arrives, how much food, how much water, the internet, when to “mow the lawn”. The Warsaw Ghetto was free and independent, too, in your terms. The reason the population expanded so quickly in so few years is that Palestinians were displaced from the West Bank and forced to go to Gaza. In the last ten years when Palestinians have protested their “imprisonment” they have been shot and killed by Israelis. See the right to return marches which occurred for many Fridays in the last decade.
@@jakeforder9435too much drama boy
Rory, you're one of a few in politcs who could set things out so eloquently
Rory Stewart truly has a command of the situation in the ME.
Campbell by contrast… out of his depth & politically cowardly to boot.
Campbell is a very arrogant man. His huge failures in foreign policy and WMD lies should be enough for anyone with a bit of decency to retire from public life.
The podcast value is all due to Rory’s presence.
Couldn't agree more. If Rory wasn't on here, I could not bear to listen to the hypocrisy of AC whose actions in supporting Blair et al caused many of the problems in the Middle East.
13:23 Alistair, "I think we can understand why Israel reacted the way they did". Absolutely abhorrent comment - any reasonable human being cannot understand the horror Israel have subjected the Palestinian people to.
The fundamental belief here that Iran is considerably weaker militarily than Israel is now seriously questioned by most informed analysts and this therefore alters dramatically the consequent scenarios presented. I do not feel it has been Iran's intention but it is Israeli action and reaction which will ultimately lead to it's demise.
Levelling up,the most insulting concept there has ever been.It basically says that after post industrialisation,areas mainly in the north and Midlands,due to lack of planning and investment were left to rot.The tories completely failed with it and my issue is why we're we left so far behind in the first place.
Not only that, but it was deliberate.
Iran knows it can’t land massive damage in Israel without drawing American and several European countries into the conflict. That’s why Israel will keep pushing them hoping for that outcome.
The Israelis have dined out for free on the holocaust for long enough.
Sorry but NOBODY felt Afghanistan was an existential threat, A. Q. were a threat but nobody ever said or imagined they threatened the existence of the UK. Alister peddled the lie that Iraq could be a threat...but never existential.
After 9/11 people did think that AQ were an existential threat.
Brilliant analysis from Rory, we got rid of Sadam which left a vacuum for Al Qaeda to move and later gave birth to hideous groups like ISIS.
Hamas has been contained by Israel between 2005-2023, the only reason Oct 7th was allowed to happen was a result of massive security failure largely due to complacency on the Gaza border, they had 100s of security forces on the Gaza border vs much larges force in the West Bank to support settler expansion.
To say Hamas poses immediate existential threat to the state of Israel is at best comical.
Listen to how scared of Israeli bullying these two are eg. When Stewart refers to hamas, hezbollah and iran as 'unbelievably unpleasant' and doesn't use anything like this language to describe what is clearly an unbelievably unpleasant Israeli government.
Pretty hard to listen to these two on this subject. How anyone can objectively look at what Palestinians have been subjected to for decades - let alone the last year - and effectively call it 50-50 is sickening.
54:00 re £200 million spent on planning for the Thames Tunnel. The ultimate cost of the Thames Tideway Tunnel was £5 billion so those planning costs were only 4% of the final costs and relatively small compared to the overall costs (assuming these figures are correct). You've got to question why the costs of construction of major national infrastructure projects in Britain are so much greater than other countries. I don't know the answer but would suggest things like planning, archaeology and ecology are a drop in the ocean and these are the types of things the Tories (and now Labour) were targetting. The first place I would look is at the profits of the major contractors.
With Rory on this.
The actual civilian death toll in Gaza is estimated to be around 23,000, based on figures of 41,000 total deaths minus the 18,000 militants reportedly killed by the Israeli Defense Force (IDF).
When discussing death tolls in Gaza, it is essential to note that the numbers are provided by the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. This often creates confusion, as no clear distinction is made between civilian and combatant casualties; Hamas tends to report all deaths as civilian.
Between May 6-8, 2024, the UN adjusted the Gaza death toll to approximately 40,000, marking a 47% reduction in the number of women and children previously reported killed. This adjustment was linked to fraudulent reporting of deaths, some of which had been recorded from earlier years or even decades. The UN also indicated that one-sixth of the 40,000 deaths remain under investigation for potential fraud, pending further details, including photographic IDs from Hamas authorities.
To calculate a more accurate civilian death toll, we could subtract the 18,000 Hamas militants killed and the one-sixth of deaths still being investigated from the 41,000 total. This leaves an estimated civilian death count of approximately 16,167.
References: Although the exact UN report from May 2024 is difficult to locate, this recalculation has been referenced in multiple analyses, such as:
Washington Institute Analysis
ACLED Report on Hamas
---
Calculations:
1. Total deaths reported: 41,000
2. Deaths still under investigation (one-sixth):
41,000 \div 6 = 6,833.33
41,000 - 6,833.33 = 34,166.67
5. Estimated civilian deaths after subtracting Hamas gunmen:
34,166.67 - 18,000 = 16,166.67
Thus, the more accurate civilian death toll is approximately 16,167.
Hon that's the number of under 18 children killed only.
Stop reading ads when you talk about serious issues. It’s embarrassing.
These 2 should look at a map from time to time
The operating words here are size and distance
Had Iran had a border with Israel the scenarios around 35:00 might just be possible
ie hitting Iran so hard "the threat disappears"
However Iran is inconveniently 1000 to 2000 Km away
It has spent the last 30 years developing a huge long range missile arsenal which it can launch from super-hardened or highly mobile sites
If Israel hits really vital targets in Iran it can put a cross on its energy infrastructure for a start
So then , how does an advanced "1st World" economy fare in such a case ? Answer: Not well at all
Barring massive and direct US help Israel has very short legs in this fight unless it goes nuclear
And BTW
1- When you have 100+ nuclear warheads and the other guy has none he is not an existential threat to you
2- A strike against Iran with more than a dozen aircraft, of which half would be there to provide cover for the rest, is beyond the capacity of Israel
It simply does not have the refuelling aircraft to do this
Could either of them explain how proportionality featured in Afghanistan, or Iraq which Alister lied to the public in order to invade? They quote deaths in Gaza, without even attempting to guess at the numbers of Hamas fighters killed, did Rory do the same in Afghanistan as the Taliban were being fought and killed? No.
How many are dead in Gaza. The oft quoted 40,000 is unbelievable. Now we have US medical professionals saying the true figure is 120,000. Others say 200,000. Perhaps we shall never know.
@@JohnCox-ut3cv I heard someone who was also nowhere near Gaza and had no clue say it was 18,000,000
@@jamesbrown-pk2do US medical professionals coming out and making a nonsense of the 40,000 figure that the media has bandied about for nine months, though. 18 million is ridiculous. Personally, I would not be surprised at a quarter of the population already dead or dying & the Israelis withholding food and water.
Respect Rory Stewart.
Truth shall set you free!
Nowhere else do I hear such reasoned, informed and passionate debate. Nobody knows it all or gets it all correct but boy are you two a welcome relief from crap elsewhere. Thank you.
Then you should really try some other media outlets and speakers who actually know what they're talking about like Daniel Levy,a British jew who has been involved in major peace negotiations for the last 30 years or more.He would have out these two to shame
Great to see you guys actually debating and disagreeing again ( in the right way) great to see Rory pushing the envelope and really pushing back on the common narratives. More of it please!
The deaths on the Oct 6th break-out from the southern internment camp (a.k.a. Gaza), blockaded by Israel since 2007, have not been validated and remain an oddly rounded "1200" , even after 12 months, reduced already from the previously rounded figure of "1400". This contrasts with the precision given by the Gazan Health Ministry of Gazans 41 965 killed since Oct 6th (also not yet validated, but linked to names).
Where there’s illegal occupation, there will always be resistance, just as there was in territories occupied by the Nazis in World War II. The French Resistance were called “terrorists” by the occupiers too. A lasting settlement needs all parties to be treated equally. This includes restitution or compensation for expropriated land, businesses and homes since 1948, to surviving owners and their descendants.
I've been listening to this podcast since it started, but this was probably my favourite. Really interesting.
Rory spitting absolute facts
Yayah Sinwar launched his attack without informing his own boss, Haniyeh, let alone Iran. The rest and been largely reactive. This discussion assumes it was all carefully thought through. I don't believe it was. There are no winners, and nobody dares back down.
It is interesting that some commentators cite Ireland. There is in fact an interesting parrallel. The Provisional IRA killed a very similar number of people to those killed by Hamas on Oxtober the Seventh. But the British rraction was not to demolish 70% of buildings in the republic, or level Dublin or Cork. It would not have entered the heads of decent people to think that that would be an acceptable response to a terrorist attack of that size. But to the Israeli regime that seems legitimate. It shows how far Israel has drifted from its rather idealistc origins. It has become a typicaly nasty middle easten regime with no remnant of the enlightenment its founders inherited from Europe.
I like Christopher Hitchens' and Albert Einstein's view on the matter... Right from conception, the creation of Israel created a tension that we are seeing unfold in real time... We will see where it goes... My addition to your comment is to say we can pity Israel, it is horrid to become this evil. We can pity Hamas.... But we cannot act, for we too are weak of heart.
Your comment doesn't stand up imho. For all intents and purposes, hamas is the Gaza government . If the Irish government had committed the attributed acts against England, then I think you would have seen a different, less measured response from the English. The difference is the Irish government was acting against PIRA terrorism like a normal western government.
I listened this morning. It was refreshing to have some disagreeing agreeably!
Rory has a much better understanding of global affairs than the somewhat liberal but surface level understanding Alistair has.
I really respected Rory pushing back on the whole "Iran is evil and wants to dominate the middle east with its evil buddies Russia and China". Iran having avoided escalation despite every single act of terror flaunting international law that Israel has committed despite the very public and humuliating nature of it shows more than anything that Iran is a rational actor. Even this whole axis of Russia Iran and China is overstated and more out of convenience. Russia and China are not natural allies and the current alignment of the world order didnt have to be this way
Iran armed Hezbollah to the teeth who then went on to massacre thousands of Muslims in Syria and pose a serious threat to Israel in the North. His downplaying and denialism of Iran's intentions in the middle east are frankly horrifying.
Thanks for asking the right questions, Rory. The fact that both of you felt uncomfortable about perhaps upsetting some people shows just how necessary it is to not treat anyone with kid gloves but to try and balance the emotional aspects of this dire situation with rational thought. Again, thanks for sticking your neck out….
AC has no right to comment on deaths in the middle east given his and Blair’s record no wonder he has depression
Bad form on your last comment.
Nothing morally complex at all about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. If a person finds the idea of a people subjugating another people to decades of apartheid and occupation - before subjecting them to a genocide - morally complex, they need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.
Two colonialists masquerading as centrist dads, deciding what's good and bad about middle east conflicts. Alistair doing his best to avoid iraq being mentioned.
Rory Stewart, sir, you've done it again. You have shown how much your analysis and overview is above and beyond of anyone else's.
Your questions are spot on.
I would add though, as you say that in many ways the october 7 terrorist attack has served the terrorist organisation Hamas' strategic goals, it has also served Netanyahu's, with the following invasion and destruction of Gaza being in his interest.
Hamas found traction because of Israel's terrible discrimination of Palestians. Israel is an apartheid state. And what of the West Bank where Israeli settlers are illegally driving Palestinians off the land? There was little mention of the Israeli right-wing members who have been the driving force and agent provocatuers of unrest. Netanyahu has never wanted a diplomatic solution or a separate Palestinian state. Typical playground bully who plays the victim. And don't forget his neo-con background with the pressure the Israelis put on the Americans to invade Iraq, saying that Iraq was an existential threat first to Israel and then the USA.
Alistair still hasn’t a clue, on the Middle East. Men like him and his thinking, has got us to where we are now.