Is too much epoxy bad for climbing glue in bolts? A trick to fix bashed Bolts
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- If bolts are damaged or there are mistakes or in order to leave less trace, it can be nice to bury an old hole under the P of a new glue in you are installing. We tested in this video if "too much epoxy" was bad. The recommendation is just to use only a small amount. It is better to use the right size hole as it saves a ton of glue but we wanted to know if it was super good enough if you didn't.
Bolting Bible is free, please go learn about bolts www.hownot2.com/post/boltingb...
Spoiler Alert: Our tests showed it was fine.
All tests were done with Liquid Roc 500
Fixe Hely Tension (3/8" bolt in a 5/8" hole)
29.86kn, 30.30kn, 28.10kn - all bolts snapped
Fixe hely Shear (3/8" bolt in a 5/8" hole)
31.68kn, 30.36kn, 33.82kn - all bolts snapped
Double holes with 10mm Solid Leg from Bolt Products
52.38kn, 47.50kn, 50.86kn
For reference, carabiners break around 22kn.
The original tests of this method are included in this forum post. Thanks Jim Titt.
www.mountainproject.com/forum...
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00:00 Intro
00:25 The concern
01:39 Big Holes
02:43 Double Holes
08:15 Gluing
09:18 Fixe Hely Shear
10:24 Double Hole Tests
11:49 Fixe Hely Tension
12:20 Conclusion
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that would come in handy if someone were to vandalize a bunch of highlines!
Timing is ironic but glad we checked this option.
@@HowNOT2 So sorry to hear what happened, but glad you are ahead of the game in terms of making things right.
Cue bolting vs chopping war
@@HowNOT2 what can be done about him??! Saw that other video where you talked about that shawn character, and someone in the comments said he had a UA-cam channel up now... I don't know much about rock climbing, as I'm a novice that hasn't climbed on a wall in over 10 years, and as such know nothing about highlining, but watching a video of him cutting a rope off of a set of anchors while joyfully claiming in the description that he stranded 2 people, all the while having choice words about their clothing, really makes me wonder what kind of stuff some of these OG climbers must be smoking, when you as far as I can tell are doing scientific research into how safe is safe enough, and how much safety you need... I mean this guy is removing ropes and bolts, all the while stranding people on ledges... Can that kind of behavior be legal??? Stay safe out there, cuz it definitely sounds like a hazardous sport, especially with Wacko's ruining your hard work... I'm going to be praying for you, and as well, I can't believe that I'm saying this, I'll pray for this Shawn character too...
@@northwiebesick7136 just a matter of time when someone spots him and he will end up in the hospital.
You know that you have a perfect video editing when even if you skip to the conclusion, you still wanna go back on the whole video to better understand the process and the nice tips theses guy gives you.
And all of this for... free.
Please, show theses guys the respect they deserve: systematically hit that thumbs up and leave a short comment.
And, if you can help more, sure, send them some money, they deserve it!!!
Alex from Québec
“That’s gonna contaminate the test”
Just doing my part.
you guys looked so happy about this technique back then before you knew you'd really need it...=(
The amount of work you put into these videos is legitimately amazing. Thanks Ryan and Bobby. Seriously, you two are some real mensches.
So the bolt failed before the glue in every test? Impressive. I'd hang from that. As long as the guy with the hair installed it. He seems trustworthy.
It definitely wasn't for nothing. Proving a theory right is exactly what we need.
I agree. Successful repeating is key to good science!
I love my weekend climbing and all of the debate on this or that. Because after 20 years of cellular tower climbing and construction, I just sit back smile and think how this is even a debate. But please keep breaking things it great to watch when I have time hanging around waiting on the ground crew.
Please do this on sandstone and limestone as well. Great content guys!
What sorts of rock is in this test? Looks like solid grey limestone
You hit it out of the park with this episode!! Outstanding work!
Thanks for your work guys. My buddy and I just bolted our first wall here in Idaho (Basalt) We did a lot of homework beforehand, but I wish I new about your bolting bible. The wall turned out great, shorter routes in the 10,s and under with one 11. so a good wall for newer leaders. I love your testing videos. Helps build confidence in the gear.
I like the tenet like shots going back and forward in time. Awesome
🤩
Yet another super cool test to watch thanks guys
Best video in a while to be honest! Usually I just skip to the next break and so on, but this time there was more educational content.
Haha. I finally put in timestamps to skip around and you stick around for the whole thing. Glad you like it!
Nice to see obvious deformation of the steel prior to a complete failure.
Drilling into rock to smash metal is savage dude!! But if you really have to then i suggest using a drillbit from the milwaukee MX4 series, made for concrete, cuts rebars as it was sandstone, so should be super drilly enough for those thin sleeves.... love your videos😍
You cover such a wide range of climbing/rope things!!!!!
Thumbs up as always, before the intro finish.
Swans hate this one simple trick!
Appreciate the work you guys do! Hopefully no one has to deal with issues like these for any reason other than community service...
See his last video.
Great educational content!
Super cool. I have a few glue in anchors, good to know I don't have to use the perfect size bit. 👍🏼
Nice work dudes!
If Bobby would whip I would whip! Love the content! Keep it up
Great work guys! Definitely not for nothing! The only thing I am curious about is about sedimentary stone testing as well. It is important to regard bedding layer direction When you do the test on those stones. Can’t wait to see if you guys do that as well! Keep up the great testing. It’s very informative and well done.
Very impressed with the results, I expected way more crumbling in the epoxy filled hole and way less strength. I'm curious about results in some softer rock, there it might be a bigger problem.
Great video as always! Keep it up bolt masters! :)
Good work guys.
Another great video!! thanks so much.
would love to see the same test in different rock type. ie limestone
Guys... I really appreciate the huge efforts required to make this content. I was wondering.... Have you considered another test, to verify bond line integrity, before you pull? Such as a torque test.... Where you apply a specified torque, chosen such that no rotation is a pass, and rotation (indicating plastic deformation of the adhesive) is a fail. Multivariate data from these two tests may help yield a universal/standard Non-Destructive testing method for bond line integrity that requires minimal equipment. The variation in hardware and rock, in combination with a single crew doing a repeated methodology, adds a lot of weight to verification/validation of such a test method....... Additionally, you could do this non-destructive test in the field on a sample of old installations (It would be extremely interesting to check areas that have experienced wild fires... I don't believe a suitably large sample of these have been collected to date)...... ((Obviously this test is not practical if a ring bolt is 'notched and recessed.. but there must be plenty of installations where they are not 'notched and recessed'))
Not sure how many people I speak for, but I'm interested in the bolting material more as a user of bolted routes than as someone who's doing any bolting myself. So, when you ask whether I'm interested in seeing different types of glue, I don't know! I know nothing about the different types of glue.
That's just my two cents of hopefully constructive comments. I love these videos and would love to see your channel soar so I hope that, if nothing else, my comment helps the algo :)
You should test for fatigue failure. Say half the expected failure load and repeat until failure or like 1000 cycle to see how it compare to a fresh install.
It would not be a perfect test but it should give ou a idea. Since like you say, epoxy is brittle and fatigue may start crack that can weaken it overtime.
Ps. Really enjoy all the ressource you have send out over the years.
You should do one with the epoxi also over the ring as a bridge, that's how I see some bolts here in Spain. You make the hole for the bolt and also drill some space around to fill the ring
Love to see a pull test on bent over bolts after they are hammered back over to normal. Thanks for these tests.
Yes!!
That would also be a very timely test.
I wouldn't trust rehammered bolts. It is literally how we remove them. Smacking them back and forth a bunch.
Since you have become so popular, I think you should dive into the bolt debate.
It’s great that you are doing all of the research. Of course people need to understand the “how” of climbing pro. Replacing manky anchors is a noble endeavor. Setting up safe, clean, efficient highline anchors is fantastic.
Joe Shmoe should know, that throwing a line of bolts up a wall, needs a conversation.
The “why” of bolting, in the climbing world, needs to be revisited. Is it just for removing fear? Eventually all climbs could be made “safe”.
Climbing and highlining are two different games. Of course HL anchors should be bomber.
Climbing.....is not simply about physical movement. At least half of the game is mental.
Throwing bolts in anywhere and calling it “developing” is.......insulting. Especially at the lower grades. It removes the feeling of standing at the base and wondering.
This debate is at least 50 years old. But climbing was obscure 50 years ago.
Now, Joe Shmoe, should be aware of the history.
Thanks for all your extensive testing and sorry that your work was vandalized.
This made me feel a lot better about glue ins
Might try a rebar eater bit.
They make them for SDS+ but recomend drill only function.
Yeah I was going to say this-- my SDS+ bits are rated to hit rebar without issue.
We hammer drill holes all the time when setting tanks and equipment. We always run into rebar. We use rebar eaters they are bits designed to cut through metal inside of a hole. Maybe that would work? Probably not in Yosemite though
I would love to see this with the Wave bolt. In other rock types, like Sandstone. With different anchoring glues.
I think you added +1kn strength, by using the bad ass pine needles. :)
Having a lil boxing squirt bottle with you to cool off your bit is *really key* if you're actually going to attempt to drill out a bolt piece
You are doing great job by saving money, lives and scams by companies. 👍👍
Yay! Free subscription!
It would be awesome to see further tests on the anchor Screws you are using to hold you equipment down with. Can these be used on sport climbs ? Would make ground up first ascents a bit faster. Drill - brush - change over to 1/2 Inch socket SDS adaptor and ram home your hanger. then come back later remove them and glue in nice ring bolts. I'm climbing in Australia on some pretty soft rock in places and also harder granites etc. ,Have you run tests with these Screw Anchors in softer rock types?
"That will compromise the test" - there you go.
Brah I love The Rock Behind The Climb ❣️
Sandstone with polyester would be awesome - worst case but also pretty standard here in Australia....
Do you think cyclical loading from highlines would deteriorate the glue in bigger holes? I would assume not but curious if that has any affect on it
I thought this was a guide to fix the bolts that were hammered flat by the “Yosemite Psychopath”. I also heard you say you weren’t going to fix them Ryan, but you are the bigger man in this story so I think it might be worth your while. My suggestion, for what it’s worth, would be for you and Bobby to go fix some bolts, video it and as well, get the Rangers involved in the process. if you were compensated by the Park in some way for doing that then the bolts would be considered improvements and the property of the U.S.A. Tampering or damaging them, or any park infrastructure, would be a Federal Offense.
The park can barely pay their employees lol. Unfortunately never going to happen.
The issue isn't that he doesn't want to do the work. What's the point in installing new bolts when someone is going to come by the next day and break them again
@@KittenIgnition I can understand that! It takes several days of driving, hiking, climbing, hand drilling holes, hauling gear, and installing bolts and hangers. And that gear isn’t cheap. All of that takes dedication and commitment. Smashing it flat with a sledge hammer is much easier. The problem is that people could die on damaged or missing pro. And the bad guy needs to go to jail!
@@tommuhlemanjr.3871 for sure, but nobody is going to set up a line if all the bolts are bent 45 degrees... i hope. it takes all those things you just described, surely somewhere in that process you learn that damaged bolts are no good. if he damages gear in a way that isn't plainly visible, that could get someone killed so hopefully he's stopped before he causes real damage to human life.
@@KittenIgnition we all agree, it’s bad, it’s gotta stop, and the jerk needs to get busted. But, if I remember Ryan’s response, I think he has a possible name but does not who this loser is. Catching him will be even harder. That’s why I wrote all that dribble about rangers being involved. The sheriff or feds (FBI or whomever) will have no interest in chasing a “bolt bender” but maybe more interested in someone scarring, vandalizing or defacing Park property. Maybe, lol…..
Nice video! For bolt 366 (next to the “empty” pine needle hole): I wonder if it might make a large difference if you pull in the opposite shear direction.
Why do you think that would affect the results?
Is there a way to test cyclic loading? I wonder if extra epoxy would be compromised? Not sure if there's a good way to test this
You would need to hook an electric motor to the bolt with an off balance weight on the end and then let it vibrate against the bolt for a couple days.
Can you also do the same thing with expansion bolts?
Nice work. Curious how the adjacent hole technique would perform in soft sandstone?
Yes, they do this on granite, would love to see sandstone and limestone.
Agreed test more rock types but I would trust that on a sturdy stone that's for sure!
Didn't quite get the different arrangements of what was in each of the old holes in the end I expected a note on the spreadsheet which was which. Awesome experiment though deffo would whip
9:16 you know we will make that shirt!
just my 2 cents for renovation case after vandalism of glue ins... : in the case where a hole is drill right next to the glue ins in order to remove it, Jim Titt is often really open about custom build, it woud be convenient to build an hybrid between bohrhaken without the welding and the old disliked U stapple design. It would required less glue, and those are proably easy to make. and if you want to reuse the hole, I've heard people have use gaz torch to heat the glue in order to remove them, I have tried and failed, but I was probably doing it in a stupid way, as I was enough stupid to touche the bolt after...
An idea for one of these tests where you try to screw things up. Bring a complete bolting newbie and have them do all of the steps. Even though you guys are purposfuly doing things incorrect, it would be cool to see the strength of bolts placed by an inexperienced person.
I actually just did this. I was lucky enough to attend a bolting course by the DAV (german alpine association), without any prior experience. I set a glue in bolt, and then later used a machine to pull it out to test its strength. Unfortunatly the machine could not pull untill destruction, but it exceeded the specification. So either I am a bolting genious, or the method is pretty robust :)
living on a volcanic island i'm really curious how that method would work in other types of rock ( specially basalt )
Id be down to test this in crappy rock.
If you had bad enough rock that usually breaks first, after this test I wouldn't be surprised if over drilling the hole would improve the overall strength.
Have you tested a glue-in anchor in shear with no glue at all? Just purely mechanical
How does the glue age over time? If it deteriorates faster than the bolt or rock, it seems like this approach may not be viable.
Lol awesome timing!
How does the epoxy hold up over time? Can you do a test where you load an anchor multiple times to 22KN until it fails simulating how many falls an anchor can take?
Yes, what is the expected life of the glue you used?
Did you guys ever do this with Vinylester (AC100)?
I know this video is a couple years old but, have your guys tried using a punch to punch down the flange (center) bolt to disengage it and then use a telescopic magnet used by mechanics to remove the pieces for the broken bolts? I know that some stainless is not magnetic but, I’m curious if the bolts used in climbing applications are the variety that ARE magnetic. 🧐
The 304 SS bolts in this video are probably not magnetic enough to do that. But most bolts we replace would be. Good trick to add to the tool box incase a bolt breaks.
Im curious, and maybe you have a video on this, but have you tested glue in bolts after they have been in the weather and cold/heat differences for a long time like a 5 years? Could that compromise the adhesive?
I do want to test heat. Are you referring to just freeze thaw cycles?
@@HowNOT2 ya i guess either, freeze/thaw or high temperature if it has any lasting effect on the glue?
5:00 and because the bolt deformed the it snapped off, it's probably very deformation hardened and will most likely dull out your drill bit quickly
Kudos!
Did you do this with any Titt Twist bolts or Wave Bolts? I would expect similar results, but just wondering.
No, but Titt did some with his 6mm bolts. See link in description.
the 6mm rod stock those are made of bends at 4kn and then breaks pretty high. I doubt too much glue would compromise them.
Regarding your previous post, where the comments are turned off - you said he was jailed before for attempting to kill Dean Potter?! Can you please say a bit more about this? Thanks.
Thank the lord
Just thought to myself “time to rewatch some how not slackline” 😂
I was confused on the process, when drilling the hole directly above the old hole are you also filling the old hole with glue?
Also will rock type change this result?
Hmm a good question? Sounds like a good test to try out. How about a video comparing bolting in different types of rock. Granite vs limestone vs... etc.
From my experience in caving sometimes you don't have much choice but bolts do work well in limestone which is the most common in caves.
On two we filled with glue and one we did not fill with any glue
You can sharpen a masonry bit and it'll go through the broke bolts alot faster
Would definitely wip on that 😂👍
What is that carabiner you're using weighted for? Pulling almost 50kn multiple times is impressive.
I believe they are Omega Pacific 72 kn Carabiners.
"Sure nice to know it worked" hahaha this sentence is crazy man ;)
Thanks for the free subscription!
Have you ever tried removing a glue in by heating it with a propane torch, and just pulling it out ?
Hey thanks for the free subscription. Cheers. 😉
No problem 👍 haha
It did help the algorithm idk what this even is
I watched the Stairway to Heaven climbing guy with that crazy ladder and now YT is recommending all kinds of climbing videos. I don't even climb. I have a fear of heights! But now even I hate this Shawn Snyder guy!
Those pine needles definitely compromised the algorithm!
What's Bobby's most famous line?
Hodor!
which epoxy did you use?
Liquid Roc 500
Al Gore rhythm boosting comment ✌️❤️
👍👍👍
Haha that rock is so nice my local sandstone scares me
Algo comment!
Well.. that answers that..
Whoa, i think pine needle lifteruppers will compromise the results of the test!
Im pretty sure that’s compromises the test
Single?
Yup. We got divorced a lot quieter than we got married. Eligible bachelor now :) haha.
using a masonry bit to drill out steel (even a chineseium bolt) sounds like torture to me. I won't name any brands because none of them pay me and they all cost a LOT but there are drill bits that will LITERALLY be the last drill bits you buy no matter the material ;)
At first I thought this would be a response to the recent atrocities committed by Shawn Snyder.............
Snyder's a bipolar toolbag
I think in limestone this would have not nearly close strength..
Wait does that mean you and your wife split up? I remember watching the wedding on a different channel. Sorry to hear things didn’t work out.
Single AF. I spend my whole weekend playing with bolts after all :).
@@HowNOT2 hey so long as your happy. Keep living the dream that brings you joy! I do love all the content you make. So, keep up the great work and don’t let the idiots out there ruin your stoke
Liquid rock you say? Yes. Yes it is.
Those black diamond temporary bolts wouldn’t be terrible.
do all the glues!!!!!
I want to see this in a softer rock