Ranking the Subclasses in D&D: The Warlock
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- Опубліковано 29 лип 2024
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:12 ranking system
8:30 warlock base class
22:12 the archfey
24:43 the celestial
28:38 the fathomless
33:04 the fiend
37:17 the genie
41:36 the great old one
44:08 the hexblade
50:27 the undead
55:24 the undying
59:18 sponsor
1:00:40 wrap up
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How did you post this comment 2 weeks ago?
That observation about the Dao Genie with the Crusher feat was noice
Hex Warrior should be a Pact of the Blade feature. This way you would offload Hexblade's 1st lvl a bit, make access to Cha attacks harder (3 levels of multiclass instead of 1) and, most importantly, make any warlock a viable option for Pact of The Blade, not only Hexblade or multiclass.
You would lose something with that change, which is that as it currently stands if you're dipping hexblade you need to pick between a one level dip for one-handed weapons, or a 3 level dip for heavy weapons--I do kind-of like the tension between those choices.
I think there's other ways to achieve that kind of effect, though. (Adding CHA to weapon attacks could be an invocation available at 2nd level, for example).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath This is a rather weird argument. *Of course* with the proposed change you'll "lose something" - it's the point, to make 1-lvl Hexblade dip less powerful. Before you could go with 1 lvl, now you can't, that's the idea.
Yup. Easiest fix ever.
I think Medium armour and shields should be a warlock base feature. The rest of hex warrior absolutely part of pact of the blade. They should also redo pact of the chain with the more modern style of land of beast/air/water but with quasit/imp/fairy/pseudodragon.
Warlocks are definitely supposed to be way more heavily armoured than druids or bards yet in game that isn't the case. And it would make them much more of the counterpart to clerics as well
@@moto2442 Not sure that Pact of the Chain needs a Beastmaster-style rework. Having a full battle-oriented pet is too much for a Pact Boon. This is Familiar, and the purpose of Familiars is utility. PotC just gives a bit more utility with invisibility and Invocations.
I would like to point out the poetic beauty that warlocks usually get their most useful features at level one. This reflects the fact that a lot of patrons might lure them in with shiny things and promises
I cannot wait for the wizard subclasses. Ever since you started this series, I’ve been waiting for wizards. It’s been so painful to know that wizards would be last.
I think he’s trying to keep us in suspense. Lol
Chronurgy is best, then divination / war magic
I mean he already did a video on each subclass and there is even a reworking of the old subclasses if you cant wait.😅
Chronurgy is the best and i guess necromancy the worst?
In before all wizards A or higher
"This subclass doesn't add much but it's still on the wizard chassis so it gets an S"
I really like the idea of invocations, and I think that kind of customizable skill pool could have been used on some other classes like Rogue to give them a bit more variety.
Or a way to enhance a druid's wild shape - ESPECIALLY if the wild shape were a flavor shape and a basic template.
Undead warlock getting Death Ward on short rest slots is fun.
Pact of the tome can eventually have 3 backup abilities that prevent you from hitting 0.
Death ward
Gift of the protectors
Necrotic husk
Slap that on a half orc and you'll be really annoying to kill occaisonally
Then dip a level into Shadow Sorcerer for an additional death resist ability.
See if you're DM will let you take Heroic Destiny from Theros as your optional feat.
And technically, when you cast death ward multiple times on the same target, all but the most recent casting is suppressed, so when that one goes off, the next one triggers. You can make someone very hard to kill with layered death wards
@@cmckee42incorrect. You cannot stack two of the same spells. As per the PHB
@LoreFoundry that is what i though initially too, until I read the actual text of the rules.
You can have more than one of the same named effect active on you, but but the rules against stacking are such that only one of the spells is active at a time. With death ward that means the second death ward suppresses the first until the second effect is gone, for instance, when it is triggered.
Ironically if it were not for the rules intended to stack similar effects, all of the death wards would arguably trigger at once.
The best advice I’ve been given in how to consider Warlocks, is that you are not a spellcaster. You are an archer with some extra tricks. Most people’s problem is comparing them to Wizards, when they should be compared to Rogues and Fighters.
Archer with extra tricks was a good wording. I think Ranger, Paladin and Eldritch knight are good comparisons. You trade a little damage and a lot of defense for more powerful spells.
Ranger is probably the better comparison than rogue/fighter, as an archer that is a half-caster. They even have hunter's mark, which is basically hex.
(Eldritch Blast won't match the damage of archery fighting style sharpshooter attacks, but warlock is a better spellcaster, and they tend to have a lot more utility on eldritch blast like Repelling Blast, so presumably that balances out).
Even as an archer, Warlock is kind of hard to evaluate--without grabbing medium armour and shields, their AC is a lot worse than other archers (normally archers can hit 17 AC with non-magical light armour once their DEX gets to 20. Warlocks are looking at 14 or 15 AC). BUT if warlocks do get medium armour, they're one of the only archers that can use a shield (since bows all require a free hand for reloading). Shield with ranged attacks puts them ahead by 2-5 AC (since all bows are incompatible with shields unless you get a repeating hand crossbow from an artificer, but warlocks can cast eldritch blast while holding a shield in one hand).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath nicely put.
My favorite way to think of Warlocks at this point. Ranged damage with potential for some other shenanigans, and built in customization features without feats. Also can still take feats.
I don't really get into optimizing so I can get a little wacky/situational and EB still means I can contribute in combats just fine.
Now I just need to actually try a Warlock (again, only did once)
I personally classify all spellcasters as such:
Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric: Full caster
Paladin, Ranger, Artificer: Half Caster
Arcane Trickster, Eldrtich knight: 1/3 caster
Warlock: Weird caster
I think 4 elements Monk should also be classified as Weird Caster
@@georgeuferov1497 half weird caster
@@bonzwah1 more like shit caster actually
What about Bard? A Lore Bard is a straight up full caster
@@andressotil4671 obviously best caster 😉
Nah, just forgot at the time.
I like your takes usually but I disagree with the celestial warlock take, it’s like using healing word without a spell slot and you can still cast a leveled spell with your action. Definitely good.
Yeah, I agree with most things too. I do usually rank the ability to heal a bit higher. Maybe it's just the experiences I've had with parties that have 0 healing capabilities.
I was going to make the same point. This has been extremely useful 1st-5th level in combat while not needing to focus any other resources on keeping party members going.
If you play with only 3 pcs and none of them is cleric or druid, then yes, it's ok, but the more people you play with the less it makes an impact.
I had a divine soul sorcerer that took 4 levels of celestial warlock. He was so versatile.
I've found this feature super useful in my game. We started level 5 and I've been the main healer with a barbarian and druid as the other members.
I'm also the party revive which is a good and bad thing. But it's always nice to have revivify on hand.
Hexblade's A is an average between B as a straight Warlock and S as a dip.
(Really though, Pact of the Blade for all Warlocks should just kill Hexblade and rob Hex Warrior off its corpse when the 5.5 redesign comes out.)
Honestly, if there was another easier way to use Charisma (or other stat) for weapon attacks, Hexblade's would be almost dead.
I vote for a magic ring that let's you pick what stat you want to attack with, or even a spell cantrip. Just give more options
@@andrellnogueira I use Pact of the Tome to get Shillelagh. You can use an arcane focus staff as a quarterstaff and bonk opponents who think they can bumrush a caster with CHA-driven Booming Blade. It's not an optimal dip though, requires 3 levels and severely limits your weapon selection.
Considering Moon druid got the S for being OP for levels 2-4, while otherwise being B, I think hexblade also kind of deserves an S for just how insane the multiclass is.
I just made an invocation for pack of blade that lets you charisma for weapons attacks and gives you medium weapons proficiency and my players have made some really fun characters with it.
Agreed. Would prefer to play fiend pact bladelock, but it is just not optimal.
I always see a warlock as the magic version of the rogue.A rogue is technically a martial, but it won't outlive and outdamage other martials like barbarians and fighters, and even struggle against halfcasters.
The warlock can't do the spellcasting of a full caster, and sometimes has to trade blows with halfcasters sometimes (although almost all of the time higher level spell=better).
the rogue gains a lot of versatility however with regards to exploration, and some during combat that the other martials don't get (I will ignore the monk because versatility is all that it gets).
Similarly, the warlock can also get a lot of utility to fill up party weaknesses (or just your own weaknesses) with the pacts and the invocations.
Although I'm sure there are ways to compensate , from my experience, between a Rogue and a Warlock, rogues kinda get their utility no matter what
whereas warlocks get theirs conditionally (which is fine) but its not an always-available case.
Whereas, for example Reliable Talent on rogues is passive and is just given to them (albeit at a higher level).
In terms of magical utility. I'd say there are pretty good ones (Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Ghostly Gaze, Darkness) but some like Eldritch Sight/Detect Magic-At Will isn't exactly something you'd need since its a ritual and it being done out of combat or at downtime most of the time negates the need to consider the 10 minutes.
And they also have really few cantrips so that's also a bummer.
But I will agree tho that Boons are wonderful utility. But when using Chain Pact user for example its kinda sad sometimes not being able to do more than your familiar (sometimes it does even more damage than my Eldritch Blast)
@@mistergiraffe9425 First warlock I played was archfey, but I was the only "full caster".
So that meant that I went with the book, extra cantrips and ritual casting ftw. Also, as soon as I had the funds I got myself a pearl of power (recharge 1 spell slot up to 3rd) and I managed to find a wand with +1 on the saving throw dc, so I was doing pretty well with casting. The dm also conveniently dropped a broom of flying at a hags place, so I was a flying eldritch blast wielder with 120ft darkvision and decent aoe/summon lesser demons. In a "deadly" combat encounter, I managed to keep half the enemies busy until we killed the other half just with that spell.
The true strength of the warlock is dealing about the same damage a fighter would do, except starting the fight with a combat changing spell. Or at least that is how I ended up running it, and even the paladin that rolled 2 18's and a 17 couldn't influence a combat more then I did. And this is while we are talking archfey, one of the supposed weakest.
It’s more of an NPC class to me or a way to introduce weird sub-god entities into the game
@@mikesands4681 How can you call warlocks an "npc" class when they are LITERALLY a player class?
Even though I have to admit they aren't at the same power level as a wizard, they are a good class to play and they can both function effectively as a martial and as a cantrip blaster.
But the real reason I like them is that each level feels like a step in power. A wizard at levels 2-4-6 etc. gets near nothing, since spell levels go by odd level and the spell recharging feature will as well. The 'emptyness' of their feature sheets is what makes them a bit dull sometimes.
Martials receive way more in this regard, but they miss out on magic, which feels like an intregal and useful part of the game.
I think that the best way to drive this leveling satisfaction home is to compare 5th levels features for warlock, wizards and fighters.
A wizard gets 3rd level spells, 2 new spells learned, cantrips do double damage and an extra spell level back on a short rest.
A warlock gets a spell level bump, get an extra spell known, get to make double the attacks with eldritch blast (better than an extra die, effectively almost as strong as 'extra attack' feature), and an additional invocation (which I value as being a half feat)
A fighter just gets extra attack, which is a strong feature (especially combined with second wind), but a little limiting.
"Oh, the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide strikes again."
I always look forward to watch the next episode of this series. Just wizard left I guess. It was great! Thanks
My favorite class! I'm sure you'll harp on the 2 spellslots for too long being a big hamper to it (agreed I think they should get 3 earlier) but as far as FLAVOR and CUSTOMIZATION they are an Eldritch BLAST.
Agree.
Warlocks are probably the single most versatile class in the game, which feels kinda weird.
You can do anything with a Warlock, and you can duct tape Warlock to nearly any build, even ignoring Hexblade. Plus, it's the glue that holds a Charisma Engine together, which, OP or not, is a REALLY fun character to play in any campaign, and with any character focus.
I really think the solution to the 2 spell slots for too long exists within the base subclass. And that would be mystic arcanum. To me it's the most logical thing in the world that of course the warlock retained tricks from when their power was but a trickle of what it was.
Get Mystic Arcanum at 1st level and gain one additional fixed spell. And get it every level your spell slot increases as well. This way you have 2-4 spell slots at 1st level (wizards have 3), at 3rd you have 4-8 (wizards have 6-8 depending on Arcane recovery), at 5th it's 5-9 (wizards have 9-12), at 7th its 6-10 (wizards have 12-16), at 9th its 7-11, (wizards have 15-20). You get slightly more powerful spells known especially with level progression but your versatility is mcuh lower due to fixed lower level spells (and it gives a use for pact spells like shield or fireball). The onyl issue is balancing with bards and sorcerers at low level as they don't have ritual casting but that can be fixed by giving sorcerers metamagic at 1st level and bards something too though I'm not sure what
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 That's fair, but in all honesty if your biggest class positive is "you can duct tape it to other classes" it kinda shows the class can't stand up on its own. Now I've only played warlock to 8th lvl but i hated it so much i asked my DM to allow me to make a new PC, such an unfun experience that's kinda tainted the class in my eyes. One day I do wana try to give it another run.
@@moto2442 another solution could be proficiency bonus level for spell slots. So at level 1 you get two spell slots, at level 5 you get three, and at level 9 you get four , level 13 get five and at 17 you get six spell slots.
I calculated all spell slot levels of all classes and warlocks are fine until the 9th/10th level slump.
One of my suggestions to fix would be to add a mystic arcanum for 5th level spells at 10th level.
Awakened Mind+Suggestion+Actor=implanting thoughts into an enemy's mind that it thinks came from itself. S+ tier for Great Old One
Having played a Celestial Warlock, Sacred Flame is more useful than it appears on the surface when your DM has monsters use strategy. Sacred Flame ignores half and three quarters cover, unlike almost every other cantrip including Eldritch Blast. It’s valuable for that reason, and at 6th level the Celestial Warlock adds it’s Charisma modifier to it. Eldritch Blast is normally better but not always.
I find the warlock chassis is actually solid. I’m running a game for a group with a Undying patron warlock (aka no subclass) and she consistently performs very well and had a large impact in battle.
That being said, you’ve gotta populate the D tier with something, so might as well throw one of the worst designed subclasses in there.
I'm glad you had a good experience with warlock, I played one up to 8th lvl and was so bored and having so little fun i asked my DM to allow me to toss my warlock and reroll a new PC. I feel one day I might go back and try it again, but rn the class is tainted in my eyes.
I really expected all warlocks to be C-tier or above.
Every warlock can beat the baseline (more or less by definition of the baseline; grab agonizing blast, and the Investment of the Chain Master for a bonus action familiar attack).
Every warlock can add good utility while doing so (no saving throw no size restriction knockback from repelling blast, and various status conditions like poisoned from the familiar). Need the third invocation to get AB Repelling Blast, and the Chain pact invocation, but that's level 5, early enough).
I guess they're bad at armour compared to other martial characters (light armour on a class that doesn't want to raise DEX), but if they either dip for medium armour+shields or take the moderately armoured feat, suddenly they are better than most other archers at AC (since you can eldritch blast while holding a shield in the other hand--most archers can't do that).
Their highest level spell slot matches that of other casters. (And while they lack the lower level spell slots...EB plus a familar action is higher impact than a lot of 1st and 2nd level spells once you get the second beam at level 5, so I feel like only 3rd-5th level spells from other casters should really count in Warlock's spell slot deficit).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath Beating the baseline is a bare minimum, not a standard. Even a straight class Alchemist is capable of Baseline (High Elf + Elven Accuracy + Find Familiar Spellwrought Tatoo + Green-Flame Blade even though it can't use the Level 5 feature). But it's still one of the worst subclasses in the game.
Given some Clerics and Sorcerers are C-Tier, I'm not surprised the worst Warlock to be just below that.
@@seacliff217 "Beating the baseline is a bare minimum, not a standard."
I feel like you are misunderstanding the baseline, and how it applies to different types of builds. Treantmonk splits character builds into three rough categories
1. Full damage builds.
These need to beat the baseline by a lot with their martial actions or cantrips. 50% to 100% over the baseline expected. Sustain damage is the only thing they do.
2. Full spellcaster builds.
These classes don't need to beat the baseline with martial actions or cantrips period. Firebolt is 61% below the baseline; nobody thinks classes with Firebolt are bad.
3. Status/utility based martials
These are your Mercy Monks, and Fey Wanderer Rangers and Swarmkeeper rangers. These need to beat the baseline, but...not by very much. (If you go back and look at Treantmonk's Mercy build or Fey Wanderer build, you'll see numbers like 10%-30% over the baseline).
---
Every warlock can fit comfortably into category #3 (which needs to beat the baseline but not by a lot because they are bringing status and utility with their cantrips/martial actions). But every warlock also has some of the upsides of category #2 (the category that straight up doesn't need to beat the baseline period).
The problem with the warlock chassis isn't that it's *bad*. It's still a spellcaster, after all, and one that can do decent damage without too much effort. The main reason I see some of these options being placed lower is that the Warlock struggles with it's pitiful Pact Magic. A warlock will throw out one spell that has a good effect during battle, but can only do that twice per short rest. You get relegated to spamming cantrips during combat very quickly, which is pretty underwhelming (even with Agonizing Blast). A Wizard, for example, can throw out an objectively better control spell at the start of combat, and has the spell slots available to use plenty of other non-concentration spells while the first spell's effect stays on the field.
Sure, Warlocks can be useful. Other classes tend to be *more* useful though.
Honesty really interested to see this one. Warlocks are weird and get a lot from the base class, but then have some wild subclasses
From my experience... picking Warlock spells are weird...
you have a relatively short spell list
toss out half that dont upcast or are too conditional to the campaign
then trash out another bunch cuz they have to be "worth your slot"
and even with your max 15 you probably use the same 2-3 spells throughout.
And then you cast armor of agathys and hex and pretty much forget you're a spellcaster at all.
It's probably because Warlock was the trash-bin for half-finished ideas they cobbled together. Good ideas all over the place, few of which seem to flow like the other classes.
You're the first youtuber I've seen actually mention that Dao / Crusher combination. When I spotted it myself, I was thinking of it in terms of using both Crusher and Piercer or both Crusher and Slasher with a melee weapon. Which is neat but, how did I miss that it can apply Crusher to blasting as well? That's even better!
look up d&d optimized now d4 something or other. they did a sorceror/ dao genie multiclass that is a cheese grater build.
@@johnpaullogan1365 really like that channel, it'll most likely be in my suggestions bar at some point soon. Thanks for saying! :D
I was going to mention the cheese grater, too. Not only does it help the warlock with positioning manipulation, but the get the best spell to compliment it in Spike Growth as a Dao only spell!
@@richardproper8682 ooh good thinking :D
Thank you for this video! Been waiting for it for a while. I agree with most of what you said. However, for hexblade, I was taken back on how you rated armor of hexes. I think it’s a good feature. You mentioned, as most people who talk about it do, that it is a 50% miss chance against you HB curse and it uses a reaction. The latter part of that statement is all true. However, it’s not a 50% miss chance on an attack, it’s 50% chance of missing on an attack that actually did hit you. “If the target... HITS you with an attack...” So if the DM rolls a 20 (crit!) for the BBEG, you still have a 50/50 chance that is missed anyway. That can be a lifesaver! I have a straight HB and when I’m fighting something hard I’m hard to hit to begin with. Decent AC, Blink (no concentration and makes me 50% no viable to be a target for anything, shadow of moil gives disadvantage on attacks against me when I’m not blinked (plus removes line of site spells), can use mirror image if I somehow have a way of using another spell slot (no concentration). That alone makes you hard to hit. But when you account for the fact that if you do get hit by your cursed target, you still have a 50% of making it a miss. With or without the other buffs, I find this to be pretty good. If I was a player and the npc/monster had a way to make a hit that I actually made turn into a miss, especially if if critted, that would be frustrating. Idk, I think it’s certainly not the best the HB has to offer but I think it pretty good.
So close to the end! This is the most detailed tier list I've seen
Warlock is my favorite class, I have been waiting for this installment!
I just realize that the undead 1st level feature is the super sayan version of the 1st level feature of the archfey. I love the archfey thematically.
Warlock is my favourite class, so I’ve been looking forward to this - though they are hard to rank here given the pact boon is also kind of a subclass.
It's my favourite class so I was waiting for this video and it doesn't disappoint. I mostly DM but I get to play in one game where I have a Djinni Warlock Air Genasi. But I started out by taking 1 level in Storm sorcerer, so that I have 2 lvl 1 spell slots to use on shield or hex, CON saving throw proficiency, and tempestuous magic which is amazing with the 'at will' invocations.
The at will invocation use sounds awesome. Though wouldn't you start falling at the end of your turn if you tried flying with it?
@@theeye8276 you would. I use it to get out of combat range, or getting up/over obstacles. And as an Air Genasi you get to cast Levitate once a day which has no lateral movement so this can help alleviate that limitation.
Spoiler, every wizard is going to be a high A to S tier for basically the same reason that all the Paladins rated so high.
An extremely powerful chassis to build around? Yes, that makes sense.
Chrono is the only S. The rest are high A to B.
@@dylanba5251 chronurgist is good but not entirely broken. id say High A. it has a lot to offer in terms of support but if you're going just from chronal shift it STILL relies on a dice roll and can always fail.it does give you more control than say portent from divination. it's lvl 10 option is freaking great however but the time limit is an hour then it's gone
I don't know, Chron and Bladesinger might end up in S, Abjuration and Divination in A, then I think War Wizard is a solid B, maybe Scribes is also a B, but the remaining ones are C and only that high because they're still Wizards.
@@lightning2034 I mean Treantmonk said that it breaks the game in his video without fixing Arcane Abeyance to prevent Tiny Huts in combat. Doesn't take much theorycraft why that is broken. Plus Magic Jar into Exhaustion Immune Humanoid like a Shadar Kai breaks Convergent Future - But not sure TM knows/cares about this interaction nor would that matter in this video that focuses just on Tier 1 and 2.
I was really looking forward to this video and it did not disappoint! Thanks, Chris!
Awakened mind is underrated. Being able to silently communicate with your party members is invaluable.
I agree. I’m playing a College of Creation Bard and I took a 1 lvl multi class dip into Great Old Warlock just for the Awakened Mind. And idk if it’s technically RAW but my DM has allowed me to use my Bardic Inspiration even when my party members couldn’t actually “hear” me when I paired it with Awakened Mind, ie I spoke my inspiring words directly into my allies’ minds. My bard is also obviously the face of our party being a Charisma class but he doesn’t know too many languages, but Awakened Mind allows him to speak and Persuade creatures he doesn’t share a language with.
It is notable that the Archfey is a completely different play style focused on temporary target removal with charms fears and spells like sleep.
A flaw that must be taken into consideration when choosing Fiend as your warlock pact is that DMs very often feel obligated to screw you over for making the choice to make a deal with an archdevil or an archdemon.
Your patron whispers inside your head, his words like poison, "Kill her..." Your eyes dart toward the woman in question, and you know that your party needs her alive. Disobey those demands to do evil? You lose access to some class features, or gain a point of exhaustion, or worse yet, you can't choose warlock next time you level up.
Very often, fiend warlocks are put in situations by the DM that either punish them for making that selection, or punish the party by proxy, by egging on the warlock to commit terrible acts the backlash for which they must endure. It sorta makes sense: deals with the devil are meant to backfire and have classically been depicted that way in all forms of media. Fiends are not benevolent patrons, either; they are evil personified. This might create interesting roleplay moments, but in my experience as a table-hopping player that has seen many others choose this pact, it has been more of a hindrance and an argument-starter than anything. I generally like to roll with it, but not all players take kindly to suffering the consequences of another player's choices.
While a very strong subclass, and this being a roleplay limitation, warlock powers are--by definition--solely dependent on the patron with whom they made the pact, and the player's adherence to that pact, whatever it may entail. I just feel like the whole group needs to be made aware before the campaign even begins when selecting this pact as a warlock.
Thank you Chris, by the way, for making some of your more recent videos darker and more nighttime-friendly overall. I truly appreciate it. :)
Hmm, this could certainly fall under "choose your DMs wisely", some of them will just punish a player for making that choice, but those DMs will usually find "something" to punish a player for and Fiend Patron is simply an excuse.
For everyone else, this can often be addressed through backstory. "I made a deal with the Devil because I'm . . . Eeeeeeevil!" is one of the most basic, tropey, and played out ways of doing a Warlock anyway, and there's plenty of ways to play a fiendish warlock who is neither evil nor tempted to do evil things. For one thing, Faustian bargains don't necessarily make the recipient an agent of the patron, the deal was made as a one-time exchange, and as long as your soul is considered forfeit when you die, that's the extent of your end of the contract in exchange for your powers. Maybe you made the deal for the power to accomplish something specific, save a loved one, avenge a terrible wrong, etc, and as long as you're able to accomplish that, you consider the contract evenly balanced. Also, one of the things mentioned more specifically in 3.5 is that often such contracts can include a clause that the powers are inherited by the next of kin for several generations. You might not have been the one to actually sell your soul, you're just a secondary benefactor.
I ran a campaign where our fiend warlock's patron was actually Tiamat. She was manipulating him to lay the groundwork for her release
Warlock powers come from a patron, but the patron can’t deny the contract at will, unless they want to meet interdimensional police. It’s on the same level of impossibility as The goddess of magic disables weave for you exclusively.
From a game mechanic side, it’s just stupid to punish player who took few levels of warlock, if a dm allowed that optional rule (multiclassing) by themselves.
With the addition of a fairy race I'd love to play a genie warlock and have my vessel be a jar that I go into
Finally someone with a positive take on Undead Warlock. All the other Tier Lists and stuff I saw about it always play it down for its later features and subpar spells, ignoring how freakin awesome Form Of Dread is.
Also its just super fun to come up with an idea for what your Form Of Dread looks like.
At first the lack of casting slots felt really bad to me when I would play or try and build a warlock. Eventually I changed my mindset to view Warlocks more as a magical archer with their eldritch blast and a bunch of add on tools to augment their ranged damage capabilities. It makes them feel more acceptable to me this way. Obviously some sort of cognitive bias is going on somewhere in there lol.
Yeah, EB turret is a good way to think of most warlocks. A fighter with a bow and sharpshooter will do more damage, but warlocks get 9th level spells.
In the last 24 hours I was thinking about warlocks and how I needed you to make this lol!
Absolutely cannot WAIT to get the Wizard subclass rankings! I play Wizards more than any other class, and it's been torture waiting this long to see their ratings!
I view Warlocks as half casters with a few tricks up their sleeves that masquerade as full casters. I still love them though.
“There was another warlock in Xanathars”
Everyone: What? Let me check lol
Excellent as usual … very much look forward to the wizard.
I have been looking forward for this FOR WEEKS.
Now I only have to struggle with waiting weeks for the wizard.
God I'm hyped.
Especially the Wizard
Ty Chris , my favourite class well analised !!
A homebrew I added in my games for Celestials is that all Eldritch Blast Invocations also apply to Sacred Flame. The player still ended up changing to Divine Soul Sorcerer as that was really closer to their concept any ways.
Then add the same to firebolt and poison spray for fey and fiend and you're loving life
Our DM took a somewhat similar solution, he (optionally) added that if you play a Celestial your Eldritch Blast was instead "Radiant Blast" and did radiant damage instead of force damage just to fit the flavor. Still allowed use of the Invocations but helped make it make more sense thematically.
Finally, the best designed class in the game. You better be putting all sub classes in S tier!
I might have gotten a bit carried away there.
I've been waiting for warlock since day one, love the Genie. These videos have been awesome thanks for the hard work!
With the genie warlock’s vessel, did anybody else immediately think of Jeannie’s bottle from “I Dream of Jeannie” or I’m I just weird and/or old? In any event, the genie warlock’s vessel makes me interested in playing a genie warlock (though the other abilities certainly don’t hurt).
That's exactly what I thought too, but that doesn't mean were not just both weird and/or old.
That's what inspired me to play a genie warlock
If you have the privilege of getting to a high level campaign, I say that the Undead patron gets one of the best warlock capstones in the game. Spirit Projection is thematically one of the coolest abilities, and it delivers mechanically. You get that coveted flight speed, damage resistance, and in your Form of Dread, you get to heal yourself. This synergizes well with Grave Touched, and if you took Finger of Death as a Mystic Arcanum, that's an awesome source of burst healing. If you get the chance to play a high level game, a pure Undead warlock is a damn strong option.
Personally I find that Genie still ekes out ahead since it has two features: Wish and Limited Wish. Both are flexible and have tons of shenanigan potential. (Though admittedly are less potent in a party that has tons of spell options. ...and honestly True Polymorph can be better than Wish sometimes, I just really like Wish.)
Love these man, thanks for the video!
Warlocks are an interesting class, but my next character will be an eloquence bard with a possible one level dip into sorcerer to pick up 4 more cantrips and access to more 1st level spells. I was considering a 2 level dip into warlock instead of a 1 level dip onto sorcerer, but it does not make as much sense to me.
You’re underrating Blindness/Deafness with Pact Magic. Many spells require seeing the target or the point in space you want to target. It upcasts great. And it doesn’t take Concentration. It should be an auto-grab for any Warlock who can pick it up. Also I didn’t hear you point out Scorching Ray for Fiend or Efreet Genie. This works like a super Eldritch Blast for Warlocks; its multiple hits all trigger Hex or Spirit Shroud. Otherwise I largely agree with where these things landed (especially that people have been sleeping on Fiend), just that these nuances deserved mention.
It requires a Constitution saving throw and Warlocks can already do Darkness + Devil's Sight if they want to mess with sight.
@@fadeleaf845 Yeah, that's my issue with extra spells Warlocks get their normal bread and butter is overall more effective.
I don’t know what I’m gonna do with my life after you finish this series. I may just sell all my possessions and go live off the grid.
I'm building a Warlock now, and I love picking up the Eldritch Invocations that allow you to cast spells at will without expending spell slots. You can bet I'm picking up Mask of Many Faces and abusing the hell out of it. I also want to pick up some of the half-feats from Tasha's Cauldron that let you cast a spell once per day without expending a spell slot, and any other options I can pick up that let me cast more spells per day.
I’m glad someone finally said it: you have less evocation they you’ll want. People when ranking warlocks use evocations as the silver bullet to fix any flaws in the warlock class, but they aren’t that good. However they aren’t bad, as a lot of warlock haters say, they are good, and you always want more of them, but they won’t turn you into a full spell caster or a marshal, they just lean the boat in one direction. I think you’re underrating celestial warlock healing, it’s as good or better then healing word which is the premiere bonus action healing spell. I don’t think it changes their place on the tier list but it’s not as bad as you make out (unless you dip).
one fun thing about Fey Presence is that it's the one charm spell that doesn't mention anything about the target realizing you did something or turning hostile if they succeed on the saving throw or once the spell ends. I made an Archfey/Assassin and i agree with your D/D assessment in that, from a combat perspective, I was definitely deadweight after the first round; however, outside of combat, there wasn't anything I couldn't get for our party through shmoozing, stealing, or scouting. A +17 deception and mask of many faces is just *chef's kiss*
Oh sweet I've been excited to see this
Will say that the GOO lock was a good multiclass for my glamour bard, essentially eliminating the need to waste a 3rd level slot on tongues.
One amusing not about Hexblade's 10th level feature is it's one of the few ways a critical attack can miss.
The funny thing about the celestial warlock bonus sacred flame damage thing is... I really think that's a step in a good direction for (some) warlock subclasses, it just needs to be executed better. If your subclass gives you a feature that buffs a non-eldritch blast damage cantrip to something that can compare to eldritch blast, this would in turn open up two or more invocation slots. I don't think any subclass should make a cantrip *better* than eldritch blast with a full suite of invocations attached to it, but giving them something comparable to agonizing blast would mean way more interesting choices to make on invocations.
Hey Treantmonk! Big fan of your videos! Have you ever done a genie build video? The warlock is pretty unique, so a guide on it would be super helpful!
I made a “desert Elf” efreeti warlock based on looks of Leetah from elf quest. She is a entertainer/dancer. I made her from a role playing perspective and she has been fun to play. My group was surprised how effective she is in play from both non combat and combat perspective.
Hexblade:
1. One of the 2 subclasses that allows you to use great weapon master with elven accuracy.
2. The only subclass that can protect you from the so feared critical hits.
I'm wondering how the rankings would change if the expanded list was instead extra spells known.
I’ve thought of that, but I don’t think it would change much. They still only have 2 spell slots.
I was wondering if at some point you could do a multiclass tier list ? I am curieux about Sorcadin , Sorlock etc.
I think the tentacles of the deepare fairly decent. Its essentially a small spiritual weapon that doesn't cost a slot and works great with Hex. Same with the coil. A reaction that doesnt cost a spellslot is nice to have for a warlock
Hey Treantmonk, love the videos. Just want to point out you have a typo around the 2:10 mark (ealier), and I believe it's at least in one other video as well. Again, love the videos, keep it up!
Ah yes, celestial. Aka the hipster post-modern cleric
I played as a fathomless warlock in a campaign recently, it was a ton of fun as some dps/control, we coupled sickening radiance with transmute rock, eldritch blast that pushed, pulled and slowed, plus the tentacle that slows, the enemies were not having a fun time 😂
Genie is the stand-out for me. Bags of holding are awesome, and Bottle Respite is kind of like that on steroids. In campaigns that favor thought, it would be invaluable. Heck, you could even use it to sneak an additional party member into a social situation that might otherwise be limited to only one.
Well, if you think that Bag of Holding that you can access only once per day is a good thing...
@@antongrigoryev6381 And unlike a bag of holding guards can't check it for stolen goods. We once had a genie lock in a thieving campaign and it was amazing for dumping large volumes of loot into. Also the exact text says you can only access it once per day if the warlock enters the lamp, doesn't say anything about tossing stuff into it without entering.
Following the rule of fun we ruled it as a exotic bag of holding that where you can only retrieve however much you can carry from once per day. Which turns out to be a lot.
What pact would be good for a full Genie Warlock?
bro I don't care what you say "You can cast healing word a number of times equal to your class level" is easily an S-tier feature. Healing word is easily one of the best 1st level spells in the game, and although not counting as a spell isn't going to be relavent that often for warlock since they'll usually be casting eldritch blast anyways, the fact that it gives them more "spell slots" (or at least an equivalent to them) by itself is amazing. It isn't great for a multi-class, sure, but we shouldn't be judging every single warlock based on their ability to multiclass just because they happen to be a frontloaded class that can be exploited with it. It's more interesting to rate classes based on how they stand on their own rather than how they can be exploited with gimmick min-maxed multi-class builds.
You should do races next. They're much simpler, but I'd certainly enjoy watching you go through them.
When I don't DM (aka never) I main Warlock. The best things I have done or seen over the years:
Gasp of Hadar + Eldritch spear to pull people off walls, towers or out of windows
Fiendish Vigor reflavord as bone armor that grows out of you at the first sign of trouble. One player called Ironman Suitup but I was thinking of senator armstrong.
Devil's Sight with Magical Darkness, anything that relies on darkvision is done for
Mask of Many Faces = Permanent Changeling or Misty Visions for permanent Silent Image (swarm of blades flying around you nonstop)
At will without costs sounds strong, but it is even stronger than that. It is basically permanent unless dispelled or interrupted.
Just standing there, Shield up, recasting False Life over and over again. You get Invocations at level 2, but VHumans can get more and start at Level 1
what is hexblade best dipped with?
I feel this is the first one where I’m 100% on the same page as you. Though maybe that’s just me understanding your rating system better?
Fiend gets overlooked because it's the default option
How would you fix the S tier and F tier Subclasses?
Invocations for at-will spells can really change the usefulness of said spells. in particular, at-will silent image is a ton of fun on trickster/face characters. If you combine with minor image for preprogrammed sound, you can have a poor man's major image any time you want, which lets you really elevate your charisma shenanigans with almost anything you can imagine.
What would you think about adding the expanded lists as spells known?
Once I tried comparing Celestial Resilience to Inspiring Leadership. Now, folks compare IL to Chef.
Overall though, I say, get a Celestial Warlock who has Celestial Resilience, a Bard or Sorcerer, maybe Hexblade Warlock, (Especially Variant Human or Custom Lineage) with Inspiring Leadership, and someone else (again, VH or CL) who has the Chef Feat. Have Celestial Warlock use their CR when everyone wakes up in the morning. After the initial wave of baddies take out the first batch of Temp HP, let the Bard/Sorcerer give a speech for IL. Later, before last battle of the day, have the Chef pass out the extra good cookies. Of course, since CR and IL recharge on short rest, keep that in mind. Also, Chef only needs an hour to bake the treats, so look at that as a resting activity. Also, comes in handy when dealing with a group that has 6+ members.
Comment to boost. Thanks for the vid!
In some games, Sacred Flame is a very handy backup spell-- it gets some extra damage from Radiant Soul, and while you'd never replace Eldritch Blast with it, the fact that it's a Dex save that ignores cover instead of a Ranged Attack can be very useful, such as when you don't have a clear shot, have an enemy in melee that you can't escape, have a high-AC foe, and so on. If your DM is strict about allies providing Cover for enemies because you don't have a clear shot, for example, that can be very good. Plus vampires.
I love the flexibility of the invocations. Like who else can see through magical darkness or encase themselves in ice?
Pact of the tome also grants access to ritual magic from any class, which I like to think, gives my warlock much more flexibility than most other "full caster" classes, out of combat. (My DM likes it too, because I spend a lot of money on spell books, scrolls and inks to transcribe rituals into my book of radiance (flavored book of shadows for my Protector Aasimar Celestial Warlock of Lithander).)
I’ve always been down on the archfey warlock. They have a few good spells but not enough to make their lackluster features worth eating.
But the more I’ve thought about it, the more I’ve realized the archfey may be perfect for a level 1-4 game. Sleep is obviously a killer, but even getting 4-6 faerie fires a day would be solid. Same goes for phantasmal force. Plus their 1st level feature is relatively more worth it at those levels just because yoy have fewer options. Put them to sleep and conjure waking nightmares, just have your character valiantly sacrifice themself or turn heel as a villain once you hit level 5
The warlock is kind of a weapon using class mechanically, but not thematically in most cases. The eldritch blast works almost exactly like a weapon. The class feature extra attack and extra attacks with the cantrip are functionally near identical mechanically. If you view Eldritch blast as a weapon attack and their spell casting as clutch/situational spell use you will have more fun than expecting a full spell caster experience. You will never out perform standard full casters day to day. However your can afford to pick those once a campaign situational spells the ends an encounter or neutralizes a bosses big bad effect, that would be too expensive to pick for other spell casters. These are incredible clutch moments that are really memorable in the campaign that people will talk about, but the spell casting options day to day are very limited, with a decent build you have your weapon attacks/eldritch blasts to be the meat of the action economy, plus casting the odd spell as well.
How are warlocks clutch casters? What are the chances that a spontaneous spellcaster would waste one of its spells know for a situational spell let alone 3 or 4 spells? This compounds the more spell levels a spontaneous spellcaster knows because they need known spells for EACH spell level not so the warlock as they always ever only have one spell level. If a higher level warlock knows no 1st level spells the warlocks loses nothing but other spontaneous spell caster would lose the ability to use all their first level slots. This allows Warlocks greater flexibility in what spells they choose. A prepared spell caster is even less likely to prepare a spell that wont be used 99% of the time. yet a warlock can afford to have 3 or 4 of these spells just sitting around doing nothing because they only need a few spells known to cast on the regular because their spell slots are so limited.
A warlock that can move around the battlefield can be very effective in moving enemies out of cover, into disadvantageous locations, into spell effects. Also a smart warlock can also save a teammate from really bad effects with the same invocations that move around enemies. You don't have to activate all your invocations so sometimes a 1d10 force damage is better if it moves a party member out of reach to a spell effect or an encounters special attack. There are spell effects that happen at the beginning of a players turn or when moving into the area of effect this allows you to push or pull a party member out of the effect and often many of these effects have worse damage than 1d10 even with a successful saving throw and because the mechanics of the eldritch blast is weapon like vs cantrip spell like you can still attack an enemy if you are at 5 lvl or more. Nothing quite like saving a party member while blasting an enemy on the same turn. It feels impactful like you are contributing to the party. I wouldn't call warlocks expert crowd control but they are expert crowd manipulators both on and off the battlefield.
Warlocks have another unique feature in that they are really constructed based on the main chassis plus TWO subclasses, your patron is a subclass but your pact boon is also a subclass. Sure they don't call the pack boon choice a subclass but really, it so fundamentally changes how a warlock plays that can it really be considered anything but a subclass? Yet it is a one off class feature that never gets expanded on. This is where the class kind of fails, as many of the invocations should be given as pact boon features and there should be some added features to a pact boon around lvl 6, 9 and above. Too much of warlock class structure is both front loaded and too extreme in choice options for builds.
Warlocks suffer from too many "must have" and too many "must NEVER have" choices in their builds. If something is must have or must never have that eliminates the choice. There are too many invocations that are too good not to have for a given pact that it actually limits choice and too many choices that will cripple any build. This is evidence that the warlock class is poorly designed. So many features of the warlock are misplaced, many innovations should be pact boon features period. The hexblade is the answer to the pact of the blade being shite in many ways but instead of reworking the pact of the blade they created an "over powered" subclass that ruins the "flavour" of many campaigns. So many builds include the hexblade dips that it cheapens the idea of making a pact with some eldritch weapon. Granted this was the weakest idea flavour wise for a patron as well. how does one have a relationship with an inanimate object? It not the best idea in my opinion. If many of the hexblade features were part of the pact of the blade, pact boon, and instead made the hexblade patron more in line with the Raven queen as a patron. such a patron built along using hexes/curses. This addresses so many issues you'd have something that wouldn't be so front loaded, would have solved the softness of the pact of the blade pact boon and given us a great new patron that was about curses and hexes vs giving us the hexblade which feels more like a bunch of game mechanics thrown together, poorly rapped with brown paper and duct tape with hexblade written in crayon on the package. The class currently really doesn't feel like you are working with curses and hexes or even some cursed weapon, it just feels like a fix for the pact of the blade but the fixes are limited to one patron. Poor design i would argue the worse design class in DnD. Not claim worse here means least powerful.
You have a really good point that many people don't pay the Fiend its due. I think it has something to do with it being a PHB patron, making it old news.
As for how Hexblade's dip potential effects the game? Its thematic gold! Its just so _tantalizing_ to see what you could get with a little contract for an undisclosed favor owed later. Now isn't that so on point for a deal with a powerful and inscrutable outsider?
Fiend is generally a very plain subclass. A bit of temp hp here, a resistance there, nothing too special. Especially comparing with flashy features like Hex Curse, Form of Dread, and Genie Vessel. So it may come as a surprise that those simple features aren't actually bad.
Les go, favourite class
So...What multi-class build would you make using two of the top two tiers? And, would it be super OP? Or, would you do better multi-classing using a class a row or more down when multi-classing?
The vast majority of Games I've ever been in, have 2 to 3 encounters a day, and there is almost always the option to Short Rest after an encounter.
Only in games where it's a race against the clock, or the characters are being pursued or pursuing others, does it become hard to take a short rest.
Add in Catnap, and you'll hardly ever see a Warlock have to go into a fight without having their full amount of spells. That being said, it's still just Two Spell Slots.
Level 11, is where the Warlock really finds their stride. You're looking at roughly 9 level 5 Spells a day, and 1 Level 6, which is only 6 spell slots less than a Cleric, but you're slinger 5th level Spell Slots, where most of there's are 1st through 4th.
I'm currently playing a 4/4 Celestial Chainlock/ Arcane Trickster. Oh boy it's a blast.
For Hexblade Warlock, go pact of the blade & get the Eldritch invocation that makes it so you can use your hex warrior on ranged weapons, and make it magical at level 3.
At level 5 get smites at extra attack.
Dip into Divine Soul Sorcerer for healing spells & the spell detect good and evil, and get the fighting initiate for a fighting style.
You now are a ranged paladin, dealing smite damage at level 6. Go to level 9 warlock for 4 level 5 spell slots of force damage, which comes back on a short rest(aka up to 12 5th level smites per day, based on RAW.)
and level 10 bard if you want to get find greater steed(go to lore bard 6, for find steed)
With straight Hexblade, there are also a lot of Invocations that improve your martial abilities at various levels. A Hexblade who leans into martial prowess has *much* more effective things to do than other subclasses between spells, just spamming Eldritch Blast over and over.
This is the one I've been waiting for cause I really didn't know where you were going to go with warlock.
I was expecting a big clump of warlocks in C tier, instead we get the big clump of warlocks in D-tier--fair enough.
I think the real surprise is how there's basically nothing in C-tier though. Basically all warlocks are either rated above nearly all clerics, rangers, and most paladins...or rated below nearly all clerics, rangers, and most paladins.
I...have to admit that I don't quite understand why the gap is quite that wide. Like...fathomless gets a pet they can command with their bonus action, and they are two tiers up over low impact subclasses. Revised beastmaster ranger gets a pet they can command with their bonus action, which only bumps them one tier up over weak subclasses. Does fathomless get a better pet? No, I'd argue it's worse. They get a good feature at level 10, but then so does revised beastmaster.
Like, don't get me wrong, I have no trouble seeing the Fathomless warlock as being better than the revised beastmaster ranger. A full tier above beastmaster ranger, including above nearly every cleric and more than half the paladins? Hmm...if you see the core of what warlock does as being pretty good, no problem, Fathomless can be that high. But then...if the core of what warlock does is so good, how are there three warlock subclasses rated in D tier, rated below every ranger even the ones who get very little from their subclass?
Not to pick on the Fathomless too much, I could ask similar questions about Fiend.
I'm just having trouble understanding the basically empty C-tier, when for most classes the difference between a bad subclass and a class with pretty good subclass features is usually +1 tier.
I’ve noticed this incongruency as well. I think what happened is that TMT ranked each subclass in succession without re-evaluating the entire list for breaks in integrity.
Just in case this wasn't pointed out, In the final summary sheet you've placed archfey above great old one, but in the rankings you did the opposite. They're right next to each other, and not that amazing, so I'm sure you may have flip flopped between them a couple of times as you built this list.
I'm playing a 9th level oath of conquest orc paladin. From an optimizer's POV, should I continue paladin or dip into Undead or Hexblade?
Strength 13, Charisma 18. I've been keeping up with Gauntlets of Ogre Power but last battle against a beholder all I did was "guys, come closer so you can be in my Aura's range", a bless and lousy javelin damage
Do you think that warlocks need more spell slots per SR? This class can be heavily gutted if the DM is stingy on handing out SRs
Can we get another Tasha's beastmaster but with multiclassing this time?
I think it should be mentioned that Eldritch Blast when paired with invocations, such as agonizing blast, repelling blast, lance of lethargy and eldritch spear, is equivalent in power to some good 2nd and 3rd level spells. So a Warlock spamming them, in a way has MORE spellcasting than regular casters. For example: a 5th level Warlock's eldritch blast with agonizing blast, repelling blast and lance of lethargy does damage equivalent to scorching ray and denies enemy turns at about the same potency as Tasha's mind whip. So a class that can spam THAT at 5th level at will actually effectively has a lot of "spell slots". At 11th level with 3 beams plus eldritch spear you have even more control and damage and can proc this at a range that renders you safe from retaliation, which in my book is equivalent of spamming a 3rd level spell at will. Add to this the control afforded by Form of Dread and I think you can safely claim that resources for Warlock aren't that limited...
How is the undead's spell list bad? I think it's pretty nice, bane and blindness/deafness upcasts pretty well, greater invisibility is pretty good (even though you already have shadows of moil) and deathward is great you can short rest trick it since it lasts 8 hrs.
also, phantom steed, if you get pact of the tome and your DM, does not give you any spell scrolls you can access it through your list.
Not to mention that phantom steed is even great as a slotted cast, for any situation where kiting is possible or movement speed is important (f'in intellect devourers, *again?!?*)
I used to not like the warlock, but after a while, they became my 3rd or 4th favorite class, I just love how customizable they are and all of the different ways to play them, and there are so many cool tricks you can pull with them, only 2 things I don't like are the 2 lots in T2 of play I think they should get 1+ the tier of play in terms of slots so 2(1-4) 3(5-10) 4(11-16) 5(17-20) and the fact that they don't get high-level slots (6,7,8,9) I have had games were I wanted to upcast low-level spells to 6th or more and was not able to, such as casting a 6th level fly spell to give everyone in the party a fly speed but I could not since I only had 5th level slots.
I also really like summoning so I would love to see summoning themed subclass or pact boon similar to the shepherd druid, maybe call it something like pact of the gateway or pact of the summoner, or maybe make it an extension of pact of the chain.
What is the invocation that helps with saving throws??? @Treantmonk temple?
Protection of the talisman
Protection of the Talisman--7th level Pact of the Talisman invocation. Lets you add a d4 to saving throws prof times per day.
Among the dead would only be a great feature on a tough, dangerous damage dealing frontliner like bladesinging or shillelagh warlock using booming blade and find familiar's help action+crusher