Wow, awesome chart at 1:10. This supports a quote from Michael Lombardi “At the end of the day, we’re looking for players who perform in big play opportunities.”
An injured non throwing shoulder injury may not effect your ability to throw accurately but it will definitely effect your comfort in the pocket against more pressure. If your arm is already hurting you don’t want a 300lb guy laying on you haha. I think he rushed a lot of throws and didn’t go through his progressions properly, we will know more going forward.
Exactly. This was my take on his whole season he read the defense presnap then locked in a lot on the receiver that should be open and just slung it in there come hell or high water cause he had to get rid of it fast his internal clock was on fast forward post snap and he just got it away or got out of the pocket.
@@dcard228 honestly. I don't agree at all with Sam's statement that it is unaffected. Like. Just watch a QB throw, and their non throwing shoulder and arm moves a good deal. It's all part of the mechanics of throwing, so its a pretty bad take imo.
@@andrewmorrison7074 yup. I implore anyone who thinks that injury doesn't effect throwing try to throw a football without moving their opposite shoulder
@@andrewmorrison7074 You are 100% mischaracterizing my take. I never said that the injury didn't affect him. It did. I said that multiple times in fact. My argument is that he was bad IN ADDITION to the injury.
He is a very physical thrower, puts a lot of torque on the ball... that didn't help his cause with that clunky harness on the non-throwing shoulder. He did play action about 25% of the time in his career, and didn't do it as often or as successfully being physically limited due to injuries. I think it's a big adjustment to go from playing in the wide zone/play action offense, to a high volume passing version of West Coast that McAdoo tends to run, we'll see how he adjusts. I've no doubt he's smart and determined enough to do whatever it takes to improve if it means winning. BUT... he's a natural dowfield thrower, and only average in terms of accuracy, so that relationship will be worth watching.
You can't dismiss the injuries, no matter how much you try to. You simply cannot. Non throwing shoulder injuries are not as severe but they aren't warranted to be dismissed. Everything in your body is connected and in this context even non throwing arm injuries will affect everything, physically and mentally. He was forcing things. If he waas healthy you can't say he'd done the same or have the same stats. I don't agree with the dismissal of injuries. It's an asinine argument.
No one is. It effected him no doubt. What theyre trying to say is "yeah the injuries hampered him but hes not good anyway" I can say he would have forced throws. Hes thrown the most INT since entering the league in 2018. His efficiency on 3rd and 4th down are second to last in the league. His 4th qrt statistics down by 1 score are dead last. Hes in one of the most friendly offensive schemes in the NFL, a lot of shit is literally schemed open and he still is barely average. Hes had all the help you could want on offense. Hes just a good bridge or backup at this point. In a weak NFC i bet the Panthers still dont win 8 games
As people already said, the Halo for 10 hours three days in a row is a fairly good sign of depression and anxiety, which is not surprising considering his injuries and issues.
@@SamuelGoldNFL Does make me wonder what kind of set ups teams have for mental fitness and player psychology, especially for young players with the pressure they have on their shoulders. Brady always talks about the mental training he does throughout the season as much as he does physical. Anyway, thanks for all the great content Samuel!
Browns social media absolutely crucified Baker relentlessly for years, even when he led them to the playoffs. He had a lot of haters in Ohio. Mayfield was always very online guy. With the injuries he knew it would only get worse. He withdrew from social media and even avoided the press when possible. He was in a bad head space. Leaving Ohio will do him good.
I don't doubt that Mayfield is hungry for this opportunity, and is smart enough to know that he has to work with McAdoo and run the plays he wants to call. This is going to be a very different offense than the one he's accustomed to previously (wide zone/play action)... but I think he'll love throwing the ball more, which he will... since the Panthers OL/RB situation is very questionable.
@@runningbeard7380 i personally think if he couldnt make it work with that great Browns O line and NICK CHUBB. then he wont succeed else where. He'll never be surrounded by that much talent again. Play calling will be very veryy important because Baker is bad at making the right reads and holds the ball to long. And if you are depending on good play calling from McAdoo... then you have already lost.
@@runningbeard7380 Its only been widezone/play action since stephanski. He played in a loose offense with kitchens. It didnt go well. His footwork is fucking horrible
As a reminder: NOBODY is saying the injuries didn't affect his play in 2021. They absolutely did. This video goes into the nuanced discussion of areas of improvement INDEPENDENT of the injuries. Getting tricked into a post snap safety roll interception has absolutely NOTHING to do with injury.
I like Baker and always rooted for him to succeed, but to me it seems like he doesn't make enough effort to improve in a year after year basis. He played well as a rookie, then the Freddie Kitchens season was a disaster, but I think that offense design was atrocious. A lot of deep dropbacks and I don't think he's suited for it, plus the OTs were bad and they did nothing to help the guys. Then Berry fixes the OT situation, hire Stefanski and everything is clicking, but last season he plays poorly again, despite having a very good roster. I agree that injuries can't be blamed for everything. Obviously it's a factor, but there's more to it. At this point in his career he shouldn't be making some of the boneheaded mistakes he was doing last year. Also his arm and pocket mechanics are shaky sometimes and I don't see much improvement in that regard since his rookie year. Josh Allen, for instance, improved greatly (and constantly) since entering the league, while Baker is still up and down. There's many factors in this (team situation, etc), but you would want your starter QB to be the tide that lifts all boats. He should be able to make up for some of it. Also his off the field antics certainly didn't help. Let's see how it goes in Carolina. Still rooting for him, but honestly they have Ben McAdoo as OC, so I have to say I'm not thrilled about his chances there.
He had a knee injury in collage or highschool. His running has progressivly gotten slower over 4 years. He used to be considered a run able, then dropped down to a scrabler qb. To now he doesn't run or scrable just out of pocket
For a player to show consistent progress, he needs consistency at coach and system. He had neither. 4 different coaches, 4 different OCs. ... it matters. Yet again he's got a new HC and McAdoo to work with. He has to evolve his game to fit what THEY want to do, and it's going to take a lot of work. He has some tendencies that are consistent: Aggressive downfield thrower... makes a high percentage of bad throws because of it... only average in terms of accuracy. He's never going to be Drew Brees... he doesn't have that level of pinpoint accuracy. He's never going to be Josh Allen, he's not built like a Tight End. He's going to have to throw the ball A LOT in McAdoo's system, which will probably look a bit like the Dolphins passing game. You can't rely on the Panthers OL or running game... so expect lots of screens and slants, with hopefully enough YAC to get 1st downs. I think he can do that. But what separates Baker apart from others, is his ability to make big plays downfield occasionally. If McAdoo can harness that, then I expect big progress for Carolina.
Have you ever thrown a football with a torn labrum in your non-throwing shoulder? The harness didn’t allow him to get torque on his throws, so his velocity was down. Throws he had previously made easily suddenly were floating on him, and he started second guessing his decision making.
One of those interceptions at Geen Bay was from landry just falling on his a*s. That field looked awful before the gme even started. It looked like a whole game was alredy played on at the start of that game. Baker did admit he saw his own paying get worse. Mentally got in a funk and fatguied about it. The death threats against him didn't help.
Baker's issues started becoming more glaring as far back as 2019 training camp. I know, I was there for several days and watched things that showed up from his Oklahoma days start to be more obvious. Balls sailing high when he'd put to much arm and not drive off his back foot, rushed throws, pre-determinations, etc etc. 2020 was a bit of a nice reprieve, but 3,300 yards 26TD and 8INT's isn't exactly top 10 production, especially when you're on a run-first team that isn't asking you to be a volume passer. The opening clip, at the 22 second mark against the Packers was the last straw for me with Baker. Even having a hurt shoulder, what decision making process that leads you to throw that post when that deep over is coming free from a clean pocket.... Just no excuse for that level of a poor read and offensive command. I'm grateful for what Baker has given to Cleveland, we're not stuck winning 3 games a year anymore. But moving on, in one way or another, is/would have been the right call. I appreciate the breakdown, Sam. Nice to hear someone approach the topic of Mayfield with a level head.
Baker the player, the person, the "personality"... it's all polarizing. Many fans saw just another arrogant, undersized kid from Texas back in Cleveland (Johnny Football), others felt they had finally found a legit starting QB for the Browns after decades of failing to do so. I still think Baker has a good chance of extending his starting career, even thought the Panthers situation seems all to familiar to me as a Browns fan. If they have another 5-12 season, it'll likely get blown up. So the question to me is whether Baker and McAdoo can see eye-to-eye on scheme, and whether he'll handcuff him into dinking and dunking on slants and screens while squashing his natural aggressiveness in pushing the ball downfield. If they can strike a balance between taking the short stuff defenses give you, while picking his spots on go routes, etc., then it might work. If Baker wins the starting job, and holds on to it for 17 games, I think we'll see 350+ compl. 560+ attempts 4000-4200 yards, 25-30 TD 14-17 INT.... and most importantly, 8-9 wins.
To get the whole picture one would think you'd study his entire body of work. Disingenuous to cover a playoff game where he was given a 28-0 buffer and a season that's hard to evaluate given the injuries. Panthers fans will soon find out.
Long story short. The reaches at quarterback #1 overall have been questionable at best since cam newton and that was a reach before we saw his rookie season but mentally and physically due to running often Joe burrow (who clearly has some issues with his self esteem) seems to be the best next choice since Payton manning #1 overall if we’re talking about completely carrying a team (and manning could only do it in the regular season 90% of the time). Leave criticisms below 😂.
Holding on that final interception that cost us that game and was never called,if it got called we had the pack beat in the frozen tundra...... And Baker would have done a Lambeau leap.....
I struggle to believe the coaches would start an injured player who spent the 3 days leading up to the game playing Halo, except maybe if they had perfect job security and were excited to get rid of him and wanted him to look bad?
I doubt it's that sinister. Who else are you going to start? Case Keenum? Baker still gave them the best chance to win... And remember, it's unlikley the Browns coaches KNEW he was playing that much Halo (if true) right before the game. Probably found out afterwards.
@@SamuelGoldNFL you guys must have missed the Carolina interview with Baker. Blame the condition training & medical staff. Baker said they had him rehabilitating his muscles around that injured shoulder. While keeping him playing the whole season. They fatguied and exhausted him before games.
@@SamuelGoldNFL Yes, Keenum knew the damn offense and was being paid $8M. Plus, you left out in addition to a torn labrum, he also had a fractured humerus, Get your facts straight; he should have had surgery after Week 3.
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Wow, awesome chart at 1:10. This supports a quote from Michael Lombardi “At the end of the day, we’re looking for players who perform in big play opportunities.”
An injured non throwing shoulder injury may not effect your ability to throw accurately but it will definitely effect your comfort in the pocket against more pressure. If your arm is already hurting you don’t want a 300lb guy laying on you haha. I think he rushed a lot of throws and didn’t go through his progressions properly, we will know more going forward.
Exactly. This was my take on his whole season he read the defense presnap then locked in a lot on the receiver that should be open and just slung it in there come hell or high water cause he had to get rid of it fast his internal clock was on fast forward post snap and he just got it away or got out of the pocket.
An injury to the off shoulder is far more troublesome than people realize
@@dcard228 honestly. I don't agree at all with Sam's statement that it is unaffected. Like. Just watch a QB throw, and their non throwing shoulder and arm moves a good deal. It's all part of the mechanics of throwing, so its a pretty bad take imo.
@@andrewmorrison7074 yup. I implore anyone who thinks that injury doesn't effect throwing try to throw a football without moving their opposite shoulder
@@andrewmorrison7074 You are 100% mischaracterizing my take. I never said that the injury didn't affect him. It did. I said that multiple times in fact. My argument is that he was bad IN ADDITION to the injury.
I definitely think injuries were a big factor and he's closer to 2020 version than 2021. I think he'll be fine with panthers
I hope so! Im optimistic he'll be better next year.
He is a very physical thrower, puts a lot of torque on the ball... that didn't help his cause with that clunky harness on the non-throwing shoulder. He did play action about 25% of the time in his career, and didn't do it as often or as successfully being physically limited due to injuries. I think it's a big adjustment to go from playing in the wide zone/play action offense, to a high volume passing version of West Coast that McAdoo tends to run, we'll see how he adjusts. I've no doubt he's smart and determined enough to do whatever it takes to improve if it means winning. BUT... he's a natural dowfield thrower, and only average in terms of accuracy, so that relationship will be worth watching.
You can't dismiss the injuries, no matter how much you try to. You simply cannot. Non throwing shoulder injuries are not as severe but they aren't warranted to be dismissed. Everything in your body is connected and in this context even non throwing arm injuries will affect everything, physically and mentally. He was forcing things. If he waas healthy you can't say he'd done the same or have the same stats. I don't agree with the dismissal of injuries. It's an asinine argument.
Nobody dismissed the injuries. You can have a nuanced discussion while factoring them in.
@@SamuelGoldNFL factor in his brace weighing him down and limiting movement on both arms.
Bengal discussed how the injury screwed up his rotation through his torso, making throws under or overpowered
No one is. It effected him no doubt. What theyre trying to say is "yeah the injuries hampered him but hes not good anyway"
I can say he would have forced throws. Hes thrown the most INT since entering the league in 2018. His efficiency on 3rd and 4th down are second to last in the league. His 4th qrt statistics down by 1 score are dead last.
Hes in one of the most friendly offensive schemes in the NFL, a lot of shit is literally schemed open and he still is barely average. Hes had all the help you could want on offense. Hes just a good bridge or backup at this point.
In a weak NFC i bet the Panthers still dont win 8 games
It was severe cord. Didnt even understand how he could play that hurt .
As people already said, the Halo for 10 hours three days in a row is a fairly good sign of depression and anxiety, which is not surprising considering his injuries and issues.
Yeah 1000%. It wouldn't shock me if that was the case. Playing a game he grew up with as an escape mechanism for both of those things.
@@SamuelGoldNFL Does make me wonder what kind of set ups teams have for mental fitness and player psychology, especially for young players with the pressure they have on their shoulders. Brady always talks about the mental training he does throughout the season as much as he does physical.
Anyway, thanks for all the great content Samuel!
@@helloweeny Definitely man. It's a serious issue that people gloss over. Mental health needs to be emphasized WAY more.
@@SamuelGoldNFL How do we know this is true though... ?
Browns social media absolutely crucified Baker relentlessly for years, even when he led them to the playoffs. He had a lot of haters in Ohio. Mayfield was always very online guy. With the injuries he knew it would only get worse. He withdrew from social media and even avoided the press when possible. He was in a bad head space. Leaving Ohio will do him good.
Tbh Pats are a good litmus test. We crushed bad QBs and struggled against good ones (plus Jameis but he was pretty good before he got hurt)
As a browns fan, i will miss baker
Nothing happened to Faker. He was a bust worst than Manziel, he is a bust worst than Manziel, he will always be a bust worst than Manziel.
Colin Cowherd: 🍿😎🥤
As a panthers fan in cautiously optimistic that he’ll bounce back but I expect him to be a stop gap QB and not a franchise guy personally
doubt he'll be any good. might as well start that Matt kid
I don't doubt that Mayfield is hungry for this opportunity, and is smart enough to know that he has to work with McAdoo and run the plays he wants to call. This is going to be a very different offense than the one he's accustomed to previously (wide zone/play action)... but I think he'll love throwing the ball more, which he will... since the Panthers OL/RB situation is very questionable.
@@runningbeard7380 i personally think if he couldnt make it work with that great Browns O line and NICK CHUBB. then he wont succeed else where. He'll never be surrounded by that much talent again. Play calling will be very veryy important because Baker is bad at making the right reads and holds the ball to long. And if you are depending on good play calling from McAdoo... then you have already lost.
@@runningbeard7380 Its only been widezone/play action since stephanski. He played in a loose offense with kitchens. It didnt go well. His footwork is fucking horrible
As a reminder: NOBODY is saying the injuries didn't affect his play in 2021. They absolutely did. This video goes into the nuanced discussion of areas of improvement INDEPENDENT of the injuries. Getting tricked into a post snap safety roll interception has absolutely NOTHING to do with injury.
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I think a lot of these mental errors can be attributed to not trusting his arm to make the throws
I like Baker and always rooted for him to succeed, but to me it seems like he doesn't make enough effort to improve in a year after year basis.
He played well as a rookie, then the Freddie Kitchens season was a disaster, but I think that offense design was atrocious. A lot of deep dropbacks and I don't think he's suited for it, plus the OTs were bad and they did nothing to help the guys.
Then Berry fixes the OT situation, hire Stefanski and everything is clicking, but last season he plays poorly again, despite having a very good roster.
I agree that injuries can't be blamed for everything. Obviously it's a factor, but there's more to it. At this point in his career he shouldn't be making some of the boneheaded mistakes he was doing last year.
Also his arm and pocket mechanics are shaky sometimes and I don't see much improvement in that regard since his rookie year. Josh Allen, for instance, improved greatly (and constantly) since entering the league, while Baker is still up and down. There's many factors in this (team situation, etc), but you would want your starter QB to be the tide that lifts all boats. He should be able to make up for some of it.
Also his off the field antics certainly didn't help.
Let's see how it goes in Carolina. Still rooting for him, but honestly they have Ben McAdoo as OC, so I have to say I'm not thrilled about his chances there.
He had a knee injury in collage or highschool. His running has progressivly gotten slower over 4 years. He used to be considered a run able, then dropped down to a scrabler qb. To now he doesn't run or scrable just out of pocket
For a player to show consistent progress, he needs consistency at coach and system. He had neither. 4 different coaches, 4 different OCs. ... it matters. Yet again he's got a new HC and McAdoo to work with. He has to evolve his game to fit what THEY want to do, and it's going to take a lot of work. He has some tendencies that are consistent: Aggressive downfield thrower... makes a high percentage of bad throws because of it... only average in terms of accuracy. He's never going to be Drew Brees... he doesn't have that level of pinpoint accuracy. He's never going to be Josh Allen, he's not built like a Tight End. He's going to have to throw the ball A LOT in McAdoo's system, which will probably look a bit like the Dolphins passing game. You can't rely on the Panthers OL or running game... so expect lots of screens and slants, with hopefully enough YAC to get 1st downs. I think he can do that. But what separates Baker apart from others, is his ability to make big plays downfield occasionally. If McAdoo can harness that, then I expect big progress for Carolina.
Did you chop the carrots without peeling them ?! Wtf, I can't be the only one ?
What's the benefit of peeling the carrot? The relative surface area of the unpeeled portion is like
You may be right, just never saw anyone doing it and it put me off.
Baker is not a good NFL quarterback.
5 years of mediocre play.
This cannot be argued.
I swear to God I'll pistol whip the next guy who says "Injuries."
Gotta be injuries
@@gavine7693 bplusmovieblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/super-troopers.png?w=590
injuries bro
Have you ever thrown a football with a torn labrum in your non-throwing shoulder? The harness didn’t allow him to get torque on his throws, so his velocity was down. Throws he had previously made easily suddenly were floating on him, and he started second guessing his decision making.
@@davew4939 Then how did he look amazing in some weeks and then get beaten by post snap safety rolls another? That's not injury related, mate.
One of those interceptions at Geen Bay was from landry just falling on his a*s. That field looked awful before the gme even started. It looked like a whole game was alredy played on at the start of that game. Baker did admit he saw his own paying get worse. Mentally got in a funk and fatguied about it. The death threats against him didn't help.
nothing he was injured.last year. lmfao
In that play at 2:47 the TE is offside. Way offside.
Oh damn I think he is.... Then the pick should never have happened!!!!
Patriots vs Bucs SB
Baker's issues started becoming more glaring as far back as 2019 training camp. I know, I was there for several days and watched things that showed up from his Oklahoma days start to be more obvious. Balls sailing high when he'd put to much arm and not drive off his back foot, rushed throws, pre-determinations, etc etc. 2020 was a bit of a nice reprieve, but 3,300 yards 26TD and 8INT's isn't exactly top 10 production, especially when you're on a run-first team that isn't asking you to be a volume passer.
The opening clip, at the 22 second mark against the Packers was the last straw for me with Baker. Even having a hurt shoulder, what decision making process that leads you to throw that post when that deep over is coming free from a clean pocket.... Just no excuse for that level of a poor read and offensive command.
I'm grateful for what Baker has given to Cleveland, we're not stuck winning 3 games a year anymore. But moving on, in one way or another, is/would have been the right call.
I appreciate the breakdown, Sam. Nice to hear someone approach the topic of Mayfield with a level head.
Baker the player, the person, the "personality"... it's all polarizing. Many fans saw just another arrogant, undersized kid from Texas back in Cleveland (Johnny Football), others felt they had finally found a legit starting QB for the Browns after decades of failing to do so. I still think Baker has a good chance of extending his starting career, even thought the Panthers situation seems all to familiar to me as a Browns fan. If they have another 5-12 season, it'll likely get blown up. So the question to me is whether Baker and McAdoo can see eye-to-eye on scheme, and whether he'll handcuff him into dinking and dunking on slants and screens while squashing his natural aggressiveness in pushing the ball downfield. If they can strike a balance between taking the short stuff defenses give you, while picking his spots on go routes, etc., then it might work. If Baker wins the starting job, and holds on to it for 17 games, I think we'll see 350+ compl. 560+ attempts 4000-4200 yards, 25-30 TD 14-17 INT.... and most importantly, 8-9 wins.
He was injured that's really it
Disagree. You don't go from looking great one week to throwing obvious picks into post snap safety rolls the next. That's not injury related, mate.
@@SamuelGoldNFL that's true
To get the whole picture one would think you'd study his entire body of work.
Disingenuous to cover a playoff game where he was given a 28-0 buffer and a season that's hard to evaluate given the injuries.
Panthers fans will soon find out.
Long story short. The reaches at quarterback #1 overall have been questionable at best since cam newton and that was a reach before we saw his rookie season but mentally and physically due to running often Joe burrow (who clearly has some issues with his self esteem) seems to be the best next choice since Payton manning #1 overall if we’re talking about completely carrying a team (and manning could only do it in the regular season 90% of the time). Leave criticisms below 😂.
Holding on that final interception that cost us that game and was never called,if it got called we had the pack beat in the frozen tundra...... And Baker would have done a Lambeau leap.....
He threw 4INTS in that game and the Browns lost by 2. Absolutely his loss.
I struggle to believe the coaches would start an injured player who spent the 3 days leading up to the game playing Halo, except maybe if they had perfect job security and were excited to get rid of him and wanted him to look bad?
I doubt it's that sinister. Who else are you going to start? Case Keenum? Baker still gave them the best chance to win... And remember, it's unlikley the Browns coaches KNEW he was playing that much Halo (if true) right before the game. Probably found out afterwards.
@@SamuelGoldNFL you guys must have missed the Carolina interview with Baker. Blame the condition training & medical staff. Baker said they had him rehabilitating his muscles around that injured shoulder. While keeping him playing the whole season. They fatguied and exhausted him before games.
@@kevinerbs2778 fatigue dont make you stupid. dude couldnt make pre snap reads
@@kiaadams104 yes, it does because it usaully include exhaustion. Even with just fatguie, you can be mental fatguied along with fatguie.
@@SamuelGoldNFL Yes, Keenum knew the damn offense and was being paid $8M. Plus, you left out in addition to a torn labrum, he also had a fractured humerus, Get your facts straight; he should have had surgery after Week 3.
Just when I was thinking what happened to baker Mayfield, Samuel Gold uploads a video titled “What happened to Baker Mayfield?”
:)
First Off Baker never looked like a Top 10 player much less a Top 10 QB
In 2020, I think he was a Top 10 QB.
@@SamuelGoldNFL i had him top 15. great video my guy