Super exciting to see you closing in on 1/2 million subscribers. I remember the early days and felt the videos were great then, so I'm also living a bit of satisfaction to see my hunch come true.
You have to remember a cold bore is not the same as a clean bore. both will shoot a different POI. Especially with factory barrels, high end lapped barrels are a different ball game all together. This is why when I range check a rifle before a hunt, I do not clean the barrel till after the hunting trip. I hunt with a cold fouled barrel as my rifle always have the same POI if the barrel is fouled and will change if I have a clean barrel and can take 10+ shoots to build up the fouling to where I get my groupings back to where they should be.
I too, carrying 300 win mag 700 rem 40 years, hand load the same. I can group 4 shots 100 yds, 1 1/2. all fouled and below freezing days. Clean bore the 1st shot is always 6+ inches out. Buddies laugh if I need to fouled the gun day before season.😂😂😮
Mark just curious how often are you cleaning rifles and to clarify you are not talking about a clean bore, just a first shot of the day, (aka cold bore)?
I couldn't agree more! I'm so glad you addressed this. I'm a former sniper and have been in law enforcement for 28 years. I learned as a young child with air rifles that my point of impact would change with the smallest of variables. EVERYONE now on UA-cam seems to sight in using bipods, when the intended use of the rifle is for hunting, where they will likely shoot off of a log, perched on their hand or a tree branch. All of these will have a different point of impact. Very good points today brother 😊🙏 😊
They trained you to shoot, but did they ever send you to school to learn the law? Did you know that ALL law enforcement officers are simply Administrative Stooges?
Absolutely agree.. it’s your first shot that counts in hunting.. You’re better going out more times with 1 round to test it than shoot off 2 boxes of ammo to try and get the groups to touch
You are the first person. Is right on the money. Thank you . By the way you are a very good shout. And you know what the hell you are talking about take to the bank. Glad to see a man you tell it right. Thank you new member.
I'm glad you spoke about cold bore, it was the exact question which I've been wondering about in relation to the variability in zero on my rifle. Looking forward to an in-depth discussion on that. Thanks as always. 🙏
A cold bore in warm/hot wheater, 1-2 fouling shots to get the temp up . BUT In the USA/and Elsewere, most Up States Hunting is done in late fall/winter. Near or under 0 temps. I'v seen some Barrel cooling devices. BUT anyone on freezing the barrel to mimick winter temp 1st shot??? You don't foul/heat the barrel for your first and ONLY shot at your Deer. You Usually check point of aim in late summer before Hunting season. But when you actually take the shot, it's -10-20 below. Absolutelly a dif impact point if your barrel is sighted in at +75F, In warm weather sighting in your rifle for hunting, might be smart to place the barrel on ice between shots.
Amazing video! I use the lead sled for the initial sight in, where I get it shooting really good. I then put the bipod on. Shoot from different positions and make micro adjustments accordingly. Leaving plenty of time for the barrel to cool back down
This is what i needed to focus on ive been ignoring the clod bore shot but ive always woundered how to best set up my varment rifel to take advantage of it looking forward to the next post on this topic Thanks so much guys for what you do it has helped me so much over the years
Mpbr and realizing where you like to hold on your chosen varmint and how big they actually are really improved my hits percentage. Our eastern coyotes have a 4” kill zone. From the middle of their bodies there’s 3” of kill zone below middle and 1” above middle. When I dropped my mpbr target size down to 2” and started holding a touch lower on the 100 yard shots my hits percentage went way up. To me a varmint rifle should never shoot more than an inch high at any distance.
Excellent. Sorting that first shot / cold bore shift is one of the discussions I am up too. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou. Mark and Sam. Great understanding and teaching. Awesome. I look forward to the following discussions. 🫡✨☮️🇦🇺
Precisely. Proofing your load as you stated is of the utmost importance. I was fortunate to have had a mentor to instill exactly what you are stating. I'll never forget what I learned. I see YT creators use lead sleds where they don't use weights to hold sled in place. The sled is being pushed and the guns front is flopping around like a flag in the wind. Only if folks choose to listen will this ever mean squat. Excellent information. Thank you!
Thank you. I have experienced this a lot in real life. I thought it was temperature. Or fouling the barrel. I see there’s a lot more variables going on. Excellent presentation.
way back about 45 years ago, there was not many turret scopes that were affordable. So I learned how to shoot just like you described> zero set at 100yds, know how much hold over out to 600yds, estimation of range based off of size of target in the scope set at a specific magnification, range finders were just beginning. shoot the same as the hunting scenereo. always test cold bore shot or what we used to call cleaned barrel shot, also test accuracy after 2 or 3 shots when powder residue and copper gilding or lead built up, found that some rifles shot best dirty , so would usually fire 1 round through the barrel a day ahead of the hunt. As cleaners got better , clean barrel shots became better. thanks for sharing
Another great explanation video, thank you guys so much for standing up for the community, the sport, and hunters too. Sending love to both of you from QLD, God bless you.
I agree 100%! All my hunting rifles get zeroed in with a 5 shot group in a few Days. Hours are the difference between shots,not minutes and definitely not only a few seconds. 👍🏻
Great information. I use a bag to get scopes roughly in zero then work up to 100 yards . Using different positions off hand resting on trees and i practice in uncomfortable positions also. Gives me muscle memory to shoot in any position since when i see a deer ill never know what kind of spot ill get to shoot from. Good hand loads help a bunch and i load hunting rounds with minum powder charge specs. And cold bor is definitely a thing all my hunting rifles are sighted in for cold bore shots. Keep up the awesome work!
I’m pretty new to reloading . Being going a year or 2 for a few calibres purely for hunting and fun on my home range . Since all my rifles main purpose is hunting my load development and zero is based on the first 3 from cold. The win mag can wander 1/2 moa for the third but I’m ok with that as long as the first 2 are touching or close I’m happy. Learnt a lot from your vids and appreciate the time you take to explain principles for varied uses
Excellent video. I would add that equally important is to practice your shot in terrain your hunting or field rifle is used. This is a big deal for those folks in place like NZ mountains, the Alps, central Asia, and the Rockies in the western hemisphere. Establishing and confirming zero and field accuracy in high angle real world conditions and not a flat square range is an whole nother world. Always learning.
Cold bore offset is the single-most misunderstood and overlooked aspect of rifle shooting..IMO..After you make the video it will be one of maybe two on UA-cam that properly addresses the issue..Thanks mate for being the true MythBuster..😊
Thanks for sharing your wisdom Mark. When I zero a hunting rifle I use a bench and a front rest but I hold the fore end as I would if shooting from a high seat etc. My Tikka .270 win will always shoot a little high and right from a clean bore, therefore I only clean it after a fair bit of shooting then check my zero with fouling shots and leave it be.
The precision guys go through many barrels to get that 1/4 moa rifle. They also stress barrel length specific for caliber, many hunting rifles today have to short a barrel.
Great topic thanks Mark, I totally agree with the hunting/cold bore situation, but its all down to getting closer for us here in the uk, shots past 250m at relatively small quarry, roe deer and foxes, the vital area is so small there's no room for error, get closer! Keep em coming....
All very true. One trick I have found that works with most rifles and can allow you to economize on range trips is to carry the rifle slung muzzle-down when walking to the target and back. If the "first shot error" is due to movement between rifle and stock or rifle and optic, this practice typically shows it up.
Just watching again as I do. Always get abit more the second time. My hunting range is 200 yards. If I can't get that close then I probably shouldn't be hunting. I have found my cold bore shot from the 308 is only half maybe a third of an inch off. That's shooting 1 shot over 3 mornings. That's at 100 yards tho so will be testing that at 150 and 200 aswell for confidence.Thanks Mark
I always thought if I site in on a steady rest be it sand bags or steady rest it shows me that the rifle is hitting where it is pointed and I have always realized that any other variable is me or other things and as a deer hunter I always thought that my first cold bore shot would be a better representation of where my first shot would land. I have had very good experiences with this mindset. Confident with making neck shots at up to 100 yards which here in Missouri is about all the distance I really need. Love watching you two shoot long range it’s so cool. 👍
Well, you've given me an idea. Do a cold bore shot, leave the target on the board (covered in case it rains) and proceed to do a 5 shot cold bore grouping over 5 days, only shooting once a day. At the end of the week, you'll really know what you and your rifle are capable of.
Excellent educational video! The last part about figuring out *your* variation with a cold bore shot telling you *your* ethical hunting range is very helpful. There are over 500 acres with lots of deer across the street from my house. Few things aggravate me more than hearing BANG…. (30 seconds) BANG! BANG! There isn’t a shot over 120 yards out there, but these cretins are missing or worse wounding a deer on their first shot. Sometimes the series stretches out over 5 minutes and I know a deer has been wounded and is hiding.
Glad to hear this information. Personally all my hunting shots are under 50m and I consider a paper plate size target acceptable for snap shot practice.
So glad someone of your knowledge and skill has made this video. My son and I have told people using my ranch range this exact thing for a long time. We show them after they get a decent zero for them off the bench to try off the bench. Even laying on the matt they don’t get it. But, then again they are mostly the people that shoot very little anyway. Of course for me and my son we are only talking to 600 with our coyote rifles set up ar15’s. We use mounted bipods and that’s the way we sight in. Same thing for my Remington 700 .270. 99% of my rifle hunting with this one is off bipods too.High ground working the river valley mostly. What’s interesting is so many don’t have a clue about “ cold bore?” or dirty bore clean bore first shot and so on. Even just for hunting, not scoring, they don’t get it that bullet may not hit behind the crosshairs. Enjoyed this video and I will use it to show some people. 👍👍
Thanks Mark, I’ve been trying to bash my bad habits out of myself for the last couple of years. After 30 years in the Army the methods to group and zero are designed to cater to the masses, in essence dumbing the process down to try and make 1/2 decent shooters out of civilians on entry to the service. That same process continues throughout the soldiers career until an individual attends a specialist course such as Sniper training where all of the generic safety drills are basically the same, but the finite skills, knowledge and experiences are honed to perfection. I’ve lost count of the amount of rounds I’ve wasted in my civilian shooting career by continuing on firing four x 5 round groups then a confirmation group. I will try to do better and follow the design and methods you mention. Thanks Again Kind Regards Michael (Blu) Turner
See cold bore shot every time I bench shoot so have a good appreciation for its effect but never factored it into having the nouse to check my field rifles after sighting in the nect day when cold to recognise the variation and work with the difference. Thank you
Great video Mark. Glad I'm on the right track with my hunting rig. Did get all my tips from a few of your other videos tho. So thanks. I do like to hunt prone as I have the luxury of hunting around paddocks surrounded by state forests so it's not real hard to find them. But never use sleds or bags in the field so just me and a bipod and occasionally a backpack. My first shot always seems to be approximatly inch high and left from my 243 with 100 grain Winchester ammo
In basic terms from the military: train how you fight. As i shoot PRS style events mostly, so I average the POI of the various position and end up innthencenter of the cone of dispersion. Cheers from minnesota
Even an individuals hold and trigger pull makes a difference. A friend asked me to shoot his 22lr at 50yds, we both shoot relatively decent. Off a solid shooting bench and bi-pod my shots hit approx 4"low of his. Both of our groups were essentially 5 shot clovers but mine were 4"low of his. Only difference was the trigger puller.
I’ve never used a lead sled or similar, but I’ve always sighted from the bench using my body as the only recoil absorber. As long as I place the front sand bag under the stock at the same location that I hold the rifle when shooting while hunting, the zero doesn’t change enough to be measurable. The only issue I’ve seen is people who rest the barrel on the sand bag rather than the stock. That can make a big difference as it changes not only the static stress on the barrel at the time of the shot, but it also affects the dynamic barrel whip as the shot is traversing the bore. Both can have a significant affect on a sporting rifle weight barrel. I’d like to see a demonstration of a 2-3 MOA change in POI between properly using a bench and sand bags and shooting off-hand or while seated as I’ve never seen that kind of change unless something really bad is done like supporting the barrel on the sand bag or rest.
Thanks Man, and well not something most folk test, not hard to, bipod, v bag, bench v prone, but generally as said, around 1 moa, so accuracy of measurement is key, Cheers
Excellent video. Great stuff Mark. I personally limit my plains hunting range to 2000 fps. Then I know the bullet will expand correctly. Fo that it generally means around 400m for my 30-06 and 243. My average shot distance is probably around 220 m so I zero at 200 meters . For bush hunting I use a revolver zeroed at 50 m. There is a lot of diverse hunting in South Africa, but what I have mentioned is my general set up.
I think load development through lead sled or any ways to minimize movement is the best way to minimize human induced errors before zeroing the way you shoot it
Awesome video and sage advice from the twin brother from Down Under. Preaching to the choir for me. Zero how you use the rifle. Within reason, that is what I try to do. I use an indoor 100 yard range but those are dinky little shelves. When hunting, I use a tripod and I can't really use one at this indoor range. So, the next closest thing is a bipod. However, the butt is against my shoulder, not in a lead sled. You would be suprised how entrenched that fudd notion is. I was at one range and the RSO asked me what I was doing and I said I was zeroing the rifle for hunting and he offered me a lead sled and I declined and his expression showed that I must have been a bit of a loon. But while hunting, I will not have a range table or shelf, I will not have a lead sled. I will have my tripod (with clamp) and the butt will be against my shoulder. So, one time I achieved a group of .55 inches. Shot 2 was a smidge lower than shot one, shot 3 was widening shot 1. A three shot group which, for me as a hunter, is key.
very cool to hear you talk about this. I only hunt, but i reload. when i tested the loads, i did it off a bipod over the bonnet of my car. sounds strange to some, but the loads grouped from 1" down to 1/4" for me to choose the load. The rifle and reloads are shooting amazing, i shoot off the bonnet a lot. i have the 1" high at 100M and i'm zero at 175M, 1" low at 200M. if the game is further out, i have time to range, check and hold over if needed.
oh, and warm/cold barrel, is a big issue. missed my first shot last weekend, cold bore for a cull i was signed up too. then for the rest of the night, not a single miss, and every shot needed to be head shots. first shot was only 165M, but still missed. I'm going to learn where the first one goes, i thought 1" higher at 100M, maybe it was just me. anyway, it's very important.
Great talk,you don’t hear very much about the importance of that first (cold bore) shot in hunting and it is crucial to making a quick clean harvest,rechecking on consecutive days is key too as he mentioned👍
Living in a climate with extreme temperature swings. I find my zero can shift considerably. The amount of people i know that sight in a rifle once when they buy it then think its good for ever makes me crazy lol
I agree 1000% I zero exactly how I shoot. I won't shoot a rifle with anything but what I can carry with me in a survival situation. Bipod rear bag ect I can't stand lead Sleds. I zero at 100yrd and have a dope card in the scope lens cover for each of my rifle .
As an ELR shooter this makes perfect sense. However Im first and foremost a hunter. I do exactly what you are saying not to do because as a hunter I have to be able to shoot from multiple positions. One of them being off hand standing, and I am certainly not going to start sighting in a rifle for each shooting position I use, including off hand. I will stick to what has worked for me for my hunting rifles. But for ELR shooting you're making a very good point.
Thanks Mark, excellent explanation!! Unfortunately in the Netherlands we can only zero in indoor shooting ranges, so not in so-called hunting circumstances ☹️
im 100% in agreement sight as you actually shoot. and 1st shot is the important one that should be consistant day after day. friend was taking me deer hunting and wanted me to sight in with him . i showed up 5 days ,shooting iron sight, offhand , one shot per day. 2 1/4 inch spread at 100 yards😊. he was ok with my gun after that.
Fresh cleaned barrel seems to be the shot breaker, after a cleaning and that first shot can be 3 inches high or 3 low. If I leave it dirty, say I fire 30 shots on an average outing and I only fired 10 and the next day I go out to fire the other, I don't notice much of an impact shift on that first shot. I'm assuming it's the cleaning and possibly some cleaning solution residue or oil in the barrel that flips that first shot.
@markandsamafterwork I do understand that with certain rifles, I do have a precision brand with match cut chamber, so no I don't deal with first cold bore issues and that's normally why I only have that with the barrel clean, but I have several other rifles that do have shifts that are factory. 👍
Hmmm… yeah, I agree with most of what you’re saying but if I have just bought a new hunting rifle that I’m going to be stalking with and shooting offhand, it’s going to be a lot easier to “zero” that new scope on a bench rest/ led sled. I’d suggest that most people use a rest because it takes a lot of the human factor out of the equation and I can twiddle the scope adjustment or make iron sight adjustments with the rifle held securely. Yes, of course you should pick it up and “confirm” your zero off hand and get your practice in, shooting the way you are going to hunt. But as a method of getting the rifle roughly on target, I would recommend using a sled. How would you recommend bore sighting a rifle (not counting buying some fancy kit) if it’s not in some kind of secure rest? I know it’s out of context but as an extreme example, if I’m a military machine gunner on a helicopter or vehicle do I sight the gun in with the helicopter stationary on the ground, or do we just scream across the range, bumping and bouncing around the sky and try and sight it in?
This makes sense where I share a hunting rifle with my father in law. He's left handed, I'm right handed. I always found it weird that we needed to zero the rifle depending on who is shooting it to get best consistency. I just thought we were compensating for either of us pulling our shots or something similar.
I am considering going to 4DOF, where zeroing conditions are entered into app, temp, elevation, wind speed, wind direction and humidity, I plan on using Kessler meter,. Last year after putting my rifle into Magpul 700 long action stock, I zeroed for 200 meters, I was able to shot down deer with standing free hand shot from 357 meter. This year I replaced trigger with adjustable field trigger and replaced barrel with 26” heavy fluted barrel with M18 x 1 inch muzzle break.
I really like heavy barrel, at 100 meters 9 of my 10 shots were in 2 x2 inch square, 6 shots of the nine in 2x2 inch were in left bottom 1 “ square in 2 x2 inch square, and 3 were spread equally in 2 inches at top, and one outlier 1 “ lower than six shot in 1 inch square.
Great stuff! It depends on the rifle for me. My hunting rifle is the hardest one because that "first shot" is the one that counts! Luckily where I am able to hunt, shots past 100 yards are few.
Good information Mark. Unfortunately with the AR Spray and Pray community here in the States this concept goes in one ear and out the other. I've also been to the range next to guys shooting a group the size of a garbage can lid at 50 yards/meters and congratulating themselves. My worst .22 rimfire at that range should hold an inch, while my best should be shooting clover leafs. My Deer rifles I do exactly as you imply: I dial it in at 100 yards/meters off the bags then bring it out the next day and shoot a single shot to dial it back to where I want it to hit off a stump or prone. (I don't take off-hand shots anymore. I used to be good at them but old-man-time has not been kind to me.)
Hi Mark! My two flat shooting riffles (222 and 243 )are zeroed at 50/100 m . I use Kentuky windage up to 300m. That's 34 cms for both calibers. Funny they shoot very similarely! 🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😎🇫🇷🖖🏻
The range I used to go to had a guy that would show up, and fire a single shot at 1000 yards to check his cold bore shot. As he said, you don't go hhunting and fire several rounds at the start of the hunt to get the barrel prepped for the day
I cringe when I see a wood stock in a lead sled! The energy has to dissipate or be absorbed somewhere. Even with synthetic stocks the bedding block is going to get hammered. Being a “senior” with some weird muscle twitches I like my benchrest front support and good rabbit ears for the back. I do use my left hand to grip the forearm. Might not be exact but I’ve found it simulates field conditions. Sometimes I use a bipod if I’m going to use it in the field. I always zero for a cold bore because I’m mostly hunting. Thanks again Mark, great advice.
The focus on the cold bore shot is great advice for hunters and btw a really good reason to skip on those ultra thin lightweight noodle barrels if you potentially have to take a second or third shot. On zero - If there is a deviation in zero between shooting positions then there is just one possible rifle related reason. you are putting different torque on the system. With a stiff chassis and a free floated barrel this should be minimal. Your grand dads wood stock gun is a different topic. Anything else is shooter induced and most likely not consistent enough session to session to zero for it.
Well actually a bit more going on than that, but answers are found by testing, reason is so you don't miss that vital shot, a little effort to be a better shot, Cheers
Fundamentals are, by the means of recoil and harmonics, the barrel and the rifle are moving prior to the release of the bullet, so, how the firearm is supported will change where the bullet impacts, tested, proven logical out come.... Cheers
Setting a rifle up in a lead sled and the like is a good way to test cartridge consistency as it allows for a much more stable hold. However, as you say, you dont hold the rifle like that in practice in the field
Thank you for the excellent explanation of the "Cold First Shot Zero". For hunters, it is the best thing.
Cheers Bill, thanks
Because of you my hunting rifles shoot wear I am. Your teachings have taught me sight in the way you’re gonna be shooting.
Awesome, thanks Randy
That sounds like a boomerang rifle. 😂
@@LTVoyagerthat’s them new boomerang bullets.
Always makes sense when you describe anything,
No baffling with bullshit, just straight talking 👍
Appreciated dude..
Thanks Dave, Cheers man
Super exciting to see you closing in on 1/2 million subscribers. I remember the early days and felt the videos were great then, so I'm also living a bit of satisfaction to see my hunch come true.
Awesome, thanks for being there Tuco, Cheers and all our best.
You have to remember a cold bore is not the same as a clean bore. both will shoot a different POI. Especially with factory barrels, high end lapped barrels are a different ball game all together. This is why when I range check a rifle before a hunt, I do not clean the barrel till after the hunting trip. I hunt with a cold fouled barrel as my rifle always have the same POI if the barrel is fouled and will change if I have a clean barrel and can take 10+ shoots to build up the fouling to where I get my groupings back to where they should be.
Yep, mentioned, Cheers
I too, carrying 300 win mag 700 rem 40 years, hand load the same. I can group 4 shots 100 yds, 1 1/2. all fouled and below freezing days.
Clean bore the 1st shot is always 6+ inches out. Buddies laugh if I need to fouled the gun day before season.😂😂😮
Mark just curious how often are you cleaning rifles and to clarify you are not talking about a clean bore, just a first shot of the day, (aka cold bore)?
One of the greatest teachers on UA-cam right here folks 🙌
Thank you so much. Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork you know it good sir! 😎🤙
Your communication skills are just as epic as your shooting.
Thanks Man, cheers
I couldn't agree more! I'm so glad you addressed this. I'm a former sniper and have been in law enforcement for 28 years. I learned as a young child with air rifles that my point of impact would change with the smallest of variables. EVERYONE now on UA-cam seems to sight in using bipods, when the intended use of the rifle is for hunting, where they will likely shoot off of a log, perched on their hand or a tree branch. All of these will have a different point of impact. Very good points today brother 😊🙏 😊
Thanks Man, glad you liked, Cheers
They trained you to shoot, but did they ever send you to school to learn the law? Did you know that ALL law enforcement officers are simply Administrative Stooges?
Absolutely agree.. it’s your first shot that counts in hunting.. You’re better going out more times with 1 round to test it than shoot off 2 boxes of ammo to try and get the groups to touch
Thanks Joe, Cheers
You are the first person. Is right on the money. Thank you . By the way you are a very good shout. And you know what the hell you are talking about take to the bank. Glad to see a man you tell it right. Thank you new member.
Thanks you Bob, Cheers Man
Very educational video. Can’t wait for the cold bore video. Thank you very much.
Thanks Andrey
I'm glad you spoke about cold bore, it was the exact question which I've been wondering about in relation to the variability in zero on my rifle. Looking forward to an in-depth discussion on that. Thanks as always. 🙏
Cheers Man, thanks
A cold bore in warm/hot wheater, 1-2 fouling shots to get the temp up . BUT In the USA/and Elsewere, most Up States Hunting is done in late fall/winter. Near or under 0 temps. I'v seen some Barrel cooling devices. BUT anyone on freezing the barrel to mimick winter temp 1st shot??? You don't foul/heat the barrel for your first and ONLY shot at your Deer. You Usually check point of aim in late summer before Hunting season. But when you actually take the shot, it's -10-20 below. Absolutelly a dif impact point if your barrel is sighted in at +75F, In warm weather sighting in your rifle for hunting, might be smart to place the barrel on ice between shots.
Amazing video!
I use the lead sled for the initial sight in, where I get it shooting really good. I then put the bipod on. Shoot from different positions and make micro adjustments accordingly. Leaving plenty of time for the barrel to cool back down
Thanks Jacob
This is what i needed to focus on ive been ignoring the clod bore shot but ive always woundered how to best set up my varment rifel to take advantage of it looking forward to the next post on this topic Thanks so much guys for what you do it has helped me so much over the years
Thanks Joe, Cheers
Mpbr and realizing where you like to hold on your chosen varmint and how big they actually are really improved my hits percentage.
Our eastern coyotes have a 4” kill zone. From the middle of their bodies there’s 3” of kill zone below middle and 1” above middle. When I dropped my mpbr target size down to 2” and started holding a touch lower on the 100 yard shots my hits percentage went way up. To me a varmint rifle should never shoot more than an inch high at any distance.
Yep.
Two shots - first shot take note.
Thank you for the tips over years and the time you take replying to us, ta.
Thanks Glenn, Cheers
Always excellent videos. I've learned so much from yall.
Thanks col, Cheers
Excellent. Sorting that first shot / cold bore shift is one of the discussions I am up too.
Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou. Mark and Sam. Great understanding and teaching. Awesome. I look forward to the following discussions.
🫡✨☮️🇦🇺
Cheers Man, thanks
Precisely. Proofing your load as you stated is of the utmost importance.
I was fortunate to have had a mentor to instill exactly what you are stating. I'll never forget what I learned.
I see YT creators use lead sleds where they don't use weights to hold sled in place. The sled is being pushed and the guns front is flopping around like a flag in the wind.
Only if folks choose to listen will this ever mean squat.
Excellent information. Thank you!
Thanks Eric, Cheers man
Thank you for sharing that information. I had never even considered that in my shooting.
Thanks Brad, Cheers
Thank you. I have experienced this a lot in real life. I thought it was temperature. Or fouling the barrel. I see there’s a lot more variables going on. Excellent presentation.
Thanks Paul
way back about 45 years ago, there was not many turret scopes that were affordable. So I learned how to shoot just like you described> zero set at 100yds, know how much hold over out to 600yds, estimation of range based off of size of target in the scope set at a specific magnification, range finders were just beginning. shoot the same as the hunting scenereo. always test cold bore shot or what we used to call cleaned barrel shot, also test accuracy after 2 or 3 shots when powder residue and copper gilding or lead built up, found that some rifles shot best dirty , so would usually fire 1 round through the barrel a day ahead of the hunt. As cleaners got better , clean barrel shots became better. thanks for sharing
Thanks Jack, Cheers
Excellent video. Thank you
An eye opener, was when the range I was comfortable with 300 yds, went to 500. Taught to shoot by hunter, Dad from WI,. This video is spot on.
Thanks Man
Another great explanation video, thank you guys so much for standing up for the community, the sport, and hunters too.
Sending love to both of you from QLD, God bless you.
Thanks Luke, Cheers
thanks Mark, I have been under the belief that cold bore and warm bore was talking about the temperature of the bore
Yes most folks think the same... glad you now got it, thanks Randell
Thanks for the lesson Master Guns! Appreciate it. Well articulated man.
Thanks Andrew
Good to see someone saying all the things I have discovered over the years (some the hard way). 😉 Excellent presentation as always.
Thanks John, cheers
I agree 100%! All my hunting rifles get zeroed in with a 5 shot group in a few Days. Hours are the difference between shots,not minutes and definitely not only a few seconds. 👍🏻
Thanks Mike, Cheers
Knowledge is key! With all of the knowledge I've gained from you I need a larger key ring. Thank you!
Thanks William
Great information. I use a bag to get scopes roughly in zero then work up to 100 yards . Using different positions off hand resting on trees and i practice in uncomfortable positions also. Gives me muscle memory to shoot in any position since when i see a deer ill never know what kind of spot ill get to shoot from. Good hand loads help a bunch and i load hunting rounds with minum powder charge specs. And cold bor is definitely a thing all my hunting rifles are sighted in for cold bore shots. Keep up the awesome work!
Thanks Man, Cheers
I’m pretty new to reloading . Being going a year or 2 for a few calibres purely for hunting and fun on my home range . Since all my rifles main purpose is hunting my load development and zero is based on the first 3 from cold. The win mag can wander 1/2 moa for the third but I’m ok with that as long as the first 2 are touching or close I’m happy. Learnt a lot from your vids and appreciate the time you take to explain principles for varied uses
Awesome, thanks Scott
Excellent video. I would add that equally important is to practice your shot in terrain your hunting or field rifle is used. This is a big deal for those folks in place like NZ mountains, the Alps, central Asia, and the Rockies in the western hemisphere. Establishing and confirming zero and field accuracy in high angle real world conditions and not a flat square range is an whole nother world. Always learning.
Thanks Aaron, Cheers Man
The best video on rifle zero I have ever seen thank you mark you know your stuff mate again thank you mate!!!!
Cheers Derek, thanks man
Always find your discussions interesting and entertaining to watch. Thanks.
Thanks Rob, Cheers Man
you, are some of the coolest people on the internet, thank you for your videos. awesome as always!
Thanks Man, glad you like, Cheers
Cold bore offset is the single-most misunderstood and overlooked aspect of rifle shooting..IMO..After you make the video it will be one of maybe two on UA-cam that properly addresses the issue..Thanks mate for being the true MythBuster..😊
Thanks Paul, Cheers Man
Thanks for sharing your wisdom Mark. When I zero a hunting rifle I use a bench and a front rest but I hold the fore end as I would if shooting from a high seat etc. My Tikka .270 win will always shoot a little high and right from a clean bore, therefore I only clean it after a fair bit of shooting then check my zero with fouling shots and leave it be.
Thanks Paul, Cheers
The precision guys go through many barrels to get that 1/4 moa rifle. They also stress barrel length specific for caliber, many hunting rifles today have to short a barrel.
Thanks Craig. Cheers
They also have 2 test shoots before their round
Great topic thanks Mark, I totally agree with the hunting/cold bore situation, but its all down to getting closer for us here in the uk, shots past 250m at relatively small quarry, roe deer and foxes, the vital area is so small there's no room for error, get closer!
Keep em coming....
Agreed, Cheers Man
All very true. One trick I have found that works with most rifles and can allow you to economize on range trips is to carry the rifle slung muzzle-down when walking to the target and back. If the "first shot error" is due to movement between rifle and stock or rifle and optic, this practice typically shows it up.
Interesting.
Thanks Pete
Thanks Mark. As usual, it makes great sense.
Thanks Dave, Cheers man
when i seen this , i had to stop in. coming for your two this is valuable information
Thanks Man
Very good point on the cold bore thing. Never put that much though into it.
Cheers Man
Just watching again as I do. Always get abit more the second time. My hunting range is 200 yards. If I can't get that close then I probably shouldn't be hunting. I have found my cold bore shot from the 308 is only half maybe a third of an inch off. That's shooting 1 shot over 3 mornings. That's at 100 yards tho so will be testing that at 150 and 200 aswell for confidence.Thanks Mark
Thanks Paul, awesome, Cheers
I always thought if I site in on a steady rest be it sand bags or steady rest it shows me that the rifle is hitting where it is pointed and I have always realized that any other variable is me or other things and as a deer hunter I always thought that my first cold bore shot would be a better representation of where my first shot would land. I have had very good experiences with this mindset. Confident with making neck shots at up to 100 yards which here in Missouri is about all the distance I really need. Love watching you two shoot long range it’s so cool. 👍
Thanks Mike
same.
Good information. Thank you Mark and Sam.
Thanks Richard, Cheers
Well, you've given me an idea. Do a cold bore shot, leave the target on the board (covered in case it rains) and proceed to do a 5 shot cold bore grouping over 5 days, only shooting once a day. At the end of the week, you'll really know what you and your rifle are capable of.
Yes that would be a 5 shot cold bore test for sure, Cheers Kizmo
Excellent educational video! The last part about figuring out *your* variation with a cold bore shot telling you *your* ethical hunting range is very helpful.
There are over 500 acres with lots of deer across the street from my house. Few things aggravate me more than hearing BANG…. (30 seconds) BANG! BANG! There isn’t a shot over 120 yards out there, but these cretins are missing or worse wounding a deer on their first shot. Sometimes the series stretches out over 5 minutes and I know a deer has been wounded and is hiding.
Thanks Chip and yes not good that stuff, Cheers
Such a great video. Excellent knowledge right here!
Cheers from accross the ditch! 🇳🇿
Thanks Vice, Cheers Man
Glad to hear this information. Personally all my hunting shots are under 50m and I consider a paper plate size target acceptable for snap shot practice.
Thanks Steve
So glad someone of your knowledge and skill has made this video. My son and I have told people using my ranch range this exact thing for a long time. We show them after they get a decent zero for them off the bench to try off the bench. Even laying on the matt they don’t get it. But, then again they are mostly the people that shoot very little anyway. Of course for me and my son we are only talking to 600 with our coyote rifles set up ar15’s. We use mounted bipods and that’s the way we sight in. Same thing for my Remington 700 .270. 99% of my rifle hunting with this one is off bipods too.High ground working the river valley mostly. What’s interesting is so many don’t have a clue about “ cold bore?” or dirty bore clean bore first shot and so on. Even just for hunting, not scoring, they don’t get it that bullet may not hit behind the crosshairs. Enjoyed this video and I will use it to show some people. 👍👍
Awesome, thanks Tim, all the best, Cheers
Thanks Mark,
I’ve been trying to bash my bad habits out of myself for the last couple of years. After 30 years in the Army the methods to group and zero are designed to cater to the masses, in essence dumbing the process down to try and make 1/2 decent shooters out of civilians on entry to the service. That same process continues throughout the soldiers career until an individual attends a specialist course such as Sniper training where all of the generic safety drills are basically the same, but the finite skills, knowledge and experiences are honed to perfection.
I’ve lost count of the amount of rounds I’ve wasted in my civilian shooting career by continuing on firing four x 5 round groups then a confirmation group.
I will try to do better and follow the design and methods you mention.
Thanks Again
Kind Regards
Michael (Blu) Turner
Thanks Mike, Cheers
Excellent information, thank you
Thanks Remi, Cheers
See cold bore shot every time I bench shoot so have a good appreciation for its effect but never factored it into having the nouse to check my field rifles after sighting in the nect day when cold to recognise the variation and work with the difference. Thank you
Cheers Man
Thanks for another great video. Point of impact can change with conditions. Ethical hunters know their limits.
Agreed, Cheers Jeff
HELLO, love your show watching from the middle of the US, I zero using the ZERO POINT BLANK method for hunting , dial up from there if needed
Cheers
thanks Mark, good advice as usual, keep up the good work.
Thanks Ken
Some really good info, stuff I hadn't really thought of before thanks Mark.
Thanks Mick, Cheers
Great video Mark. Glad I'm on the right track with my hunting rig. Did get all my tips from a few of your other videos tho. So thanks. I do like to hunt prone as I have the luxury of hunting around paddocks surrounded by state forests so it's not real hard to find them. But never use sleds or bags in the field so just me and a bipod and occasionally a backpack. My first shot always seems to be approximatly inch high and left from my 243 with 100 grain Winchester ammo
Awesome, thanks Paul, Cheers
Good timing on this topic. Going to zero my first bolt action rifle this week.
Awesome. Cheers
In basic terms from the military: train how you fight. As i shoot PRS style events mostly, so I average the POI of the various position and end up innthencenter of the cone of dispersion. Cheers from minnesota
Thanks Man, Cheers
Even an individuals hold and trigger pull makes a difference. A friend asked me to shoot his 22lr at 50yds, we both shoot relatively decent. Off a solid shooting bench and bi-pod my shots hit approx 4"low of his. Both of our groups were essentially 5 shot clovers but mine were 4"low of his. Only difference was the trigger puller.
Thanks Mark
I’ve never used a lead sled or similar, but I’ve always sighted from the bench using my body as the only recoil absorber. As long as I place the front sand bag under the stock at the same location that I hold the rifle when shooting while hunting, the zero doesn’t change enough to be measurable. The only issue I’ve seen is people who rest the barrel on the sand bag rather than the stock. That can make a big difference as it changes not only the static stress on the barrel at the time of the shot, but it also affects the dynamic barrel whip as the shot is traversing the bore. Both can have a significant affect on a sporting rifle weight barrel.
I’d like to see a demonstration of a 2-3 MOA change in POI between properly using a bench and sand bags and shooting off-hand or while seated as I’ve never seen that kind of change unless something really bad is done like supporting the barrel on the sand bag or rest.
Thanks Man, and well not something most folk test, not hard to, bipod, v bag, bench v prone, but generally as said, around 1 moa, so accuracy of measurement is key, Cheers
Excellent video. Great stuff Mark.
I personally limit my plains hunting range to 2000 fps. Then I know the bullet will expand correctly. Fo that it generally means around 400m for my 30-06 and 243. My average shot distance is probably around 220 m so I zero at 200 meters . For bush hunting I use a revolver zeroed at 50 m.
There is a lot of diverse hunting in South Africa, but what I have mentioned is my general set up.
Thanks Jeff, Cheers Man
I think load development through lead sled or any ways to minimize movement is the best way to minimize human induced errors before zeroing the way you shoot it
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Thank you Mark for pointing out how ( Important ) cold bore first shot is to a Hunting rifle ! My regards to Sam !……
Thanks Tom, Cheers
Awesome video and sage advice from the twin brother from Down Under.
Preaching to the choir for me. Zero how you use the rifle. Within reason, that is what I try to do. I use an indoor 100 yard range but those are dinky little shelves. When hunting, I use a tripod and I can't really use one at this indoor range. So, the next closest thing is a bipod. However, the butt is against my shoulder, not in a lead sled. You would be suprised how entrenched that fudd notion is. I was at one range and the RSO asked me what I was doing and I said I was zeroing the rifle for hunting and he offered me a lead sled and I declined and his expression showed that I must have been a bit of a loon.
But while hunting, I will not have a range table or shelf, I will not have a lead sled. I will have my tripod (with clamp) and the butt will be against my shoulder.
So, one time I achieved a group of .55 inches. Shot 2 was a smidge lower than shot one, shot 3 was widening shot 1. A three shot group which, for me as a hunter, is key.
Thanks Ron, Cheers
very cool to hear you talk about this. I only hunt, but i reload. when i tested the loads, i did it off a bipod over the bonnet of my car. sounds strange to some, but the loads grouped from 1" down to 1/4" for me to choose the load. The rifle and reloads are shooting amazing, i shoot off the bonnet a lot. i have the 1" high at 100M and i'm zero at 175M, 1" low at 200M. if the game is further out, i have time to range, check and hold over if needed.
oh, and warm/cold barrel, is a big issue. missed my first shot last weekend, cold bore for a cull i was signed up too. then for the rest of the night, not a single miss, and every shot needed to be head shots. first shot was only 165M, but still missed. I'm going to learn where the first one goes, i thought 1" higher at 100M, maybe it was just me. anyway, it's very important.
Yep, great work man, Cheers
This maybe your best video
Thanks man
Awesome information as ever, keep up the great work
Thanks Man
Great talk,you don’t hear very much about the importance of that first (cold bore) shot in hunting and it is crucial to making a quick clean harvest,rechecking on consecutive days is key too as he mentioned👍
Thanks Man
Living in a climate with extreme temperature swings. I find my zero can shift considerably. The amount of people i know that sight in a rifle once when they buy it then think its good for ever makes me crazy lol
Yep, lol, thanks Shaun, Cheers
I agree 1000% I zero exactly how I shoot. I won't shoot a rifle with anything but what I can carry with me in a survival situation. Bipod rear bag ect I can't stand lead Sleds. I zero at 100yrd and have a dope card in the scope lens cover for each of my rifle .
Awesome, Cheers Chris,
As an ELR shooter this makes perfect sense. However Im first and foremost a hunter. I do exactly what you are saying not to do because as a hunter I have to be able to shoot from multiple positions. One of them being off hand standing, and I am certainly not going to start sighting in a rifle for each shooting position I use, including off hand. I will stick to what has worked for me for my hunting rifles. But for ELR shooting you're making a very good point.
On shorter shots being a moa or so off doesn't matter too much, so most get away with it, just as long as they understand the deal, Cheers
This guy knows
Cheers
Thanks Mark, excellent explanation!! Unfortunately in the Netherlands we can only zero in indoor shooting ranges, so not in so-called hunting circumstances ☹️
Thanks Man
im 100% in agreement sight as you actually shoot. and 1st shot is the important one that should be consistant day after day. friend was taking me deer hunting and wanted me to sight in with him . i showed up 5 days ,shooting iron sight, offhand , one shot per day. 2 1/4 inch spread at 100 yards😊. he was ok with my gun after that.
awesome, Cheers Man
Another great video Mark, another reason why I hate lead sleds is they do not teach you how to become a good shooter using good fundamentals.
Agreed, thanks Man
this video is a treasure, thank you!
Thanks Man
Always great content. I’ve learned a lot.
Thanks Man
Fresh cleaned barrel seems to be the shot breaker, after a cleaning and that first shot can be 3 inches high or 3 low. If I leave it dirty, say I fire 30 shots on an average outing and I only fired 10 and the next day I go out to fire the other, I don't notice much of an impact shift on that first shot. I'm assuming it's the cleaning and possibly some cleaning solution residue or oil in the barrel that flips that first shot.
Cleaning the barrel is a completely different deal, but as explained in the video, some rifles do this, "some"...Cheers
@markandsamafterwork I do understand that with certain rifles, I do have a precision brand with match cut chamber, so no I don't deal with first cold bore issues and that's normally why I only have that with the barrel clean, but I have several other rifles that do have shifts that are factory. 👍
Hmmm… yeah, I agree with most of what you’re saying but if I have just bought a new hunting rifle that I’m going to be stalking with and shooting offhand, it’s going to be a lot easier to “zero” that new scope on a bench rest/ led sled. I’d suggest that most people use a rest because it takes a lot of the human factor out of the equation and I can twiddle the scope adjustment or make iron sight adjustments with the rifle held securely. Yes, of course you should pick it up and “confirm” your zero off hand and get your practice in, shooting the way you are going to hunt. But as a method of getting the rifle roughly on target, I would recommend using a sled. How would you recommend bore sighting a rifle (not counting buying some fancy kit) if it’s not in some kind of secure rest?
I know it’s out of context but as an extreme example, if I’m a military machine gunner on a helicopter or vehicle do I sight the gun in with the helicopter stationary on the ground, or do we just scream across the range, bumping and bouncing around the sky and try and sight it in?
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This makes sense where I share a hunting rifle with my father in law. He's left handed, I'm right handed. I always found it weird that we needed to zero the rifle depending on who is shooting it to get best consistency. I just thought we were compensating for either of us pulling our shots or something similar.
Thanks Man
I am considering going to 4DOF, where zeroing conditions are entered into app, temp, elevation, wind speed, wind direction and humidity, I plan on using Kessler meter,. Last year after putting my rifle into Magpul 700 long action stock, I zeroed for 200 meters, I was able to shot down deer with standing free hand shot from 357 meter. This year I replaced trigger with adjustable field trigger and replaced barrel with 26” heavy fluted barrel with M18 x 1 inch muzzle break.
Cheers
I really like heavy barrel, at 100 meters 9 of my 10 shots were in 2 x2 inch square, 6 shots of the nine in 2x2 inch were in left bottom 1 “ square in 2 x2 inch square, and 3 were spread equally in 2 inches at top, and one outlier 1 “ lower than six shot in 1 inch square.
Thanks Mate ,,,, Cheers Mark and Sam .....
Cheers Tim
Love every single video Mark n Sam make so educational, if you ever up in FNQ id love to get yas to come take care of some brumbies.
Awesome, thanks man, Cheers
Great video
Thanks Man, Cheers
Great stuff! It depends on the rifle for me. My hunting rifle is the hardest one because that "first shot" is the one that counts! Luckily where I am able to hunt, shots past 100 yards are few.
Cheers Man
I was waiting for somebody to do a good video about cold bore shots for a hunting scenario
Awesome, Cheers Kurtis
Another lesson that makes so much sense when you hear it.
Thanks again man, Cheers
Good information Mark. Unfortunately with the AR Spray and Pray community here in the States this concept goes in one ear and out the other. I've also been to the range next to guys shooting a group the size of a garbage can lid at 50 yards/meters and congratulating themselves. My worst .22 rimfire at that range should hold an inch, while my best should be shooting clover leafs. My Deer rifles I do exactly as you imply: I dial it in at 100 yards/meters off the bags then bring it out the next day and shoot a single shot to dial it back to where I want it to hit off a stump or prone. (I don't take off-hand shots anymore. I used to be good at them but old-man-time has not been kind to me.)
Thanks Man, Cheers
Great content thanks for sharing. Very informative
Thank you John, Cheers
Hi Mark! My two flat shooting riffles (222 and 243 )are zeroed at 50/100 m . I use Kentuky windage up to 300m. That's 34 cms for both calibers. Funny they shoot very similarely!
🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😎🇫🇷🖖🏻
Thanks Man, Cheers
Thanks Mark 😀
Thanks Chris, Cheers
The range I used to go to had a guy that would show up, and fire a single shot at 1000 yards to check his cold bore shot. As he said, you don't go hhunting and fire several rounds at the start of the hunt to get the barrel prepped for the day
Thanks Man
Thanks buddy love your show
Cheers Juan
I cringe when I see a wood stock in a lead sled! The energy has to dissipate or be absorbed somewhere. Even with synthetic stocks the bedding block is going to get hammered. Being a “senior” with some weird muscle twitches I like my benchrest front support and good rabbit ears for the back. I do use my left hand to grip the forearm. Might not be exact but I’ve found it simulates field conditions. Sometimes I use a bipod if I’m going to use it in the field. I always zero for a cold bore because I’m mostly hunting. Thanks again Mark, great advice.
Thanks Man, Cheers
The focus on the cold bore shot is great advice for hunters and btw a really good reason to skip on those ultra thin lightweight noodle barrels if you potentially have to take a second or third shot.
On zero - If there is a deviation in zero between shooting positions then there is just one possible rifle related reason. you are putting different torque on the system. With a stiff chassis and a free floated barrel this should be minimal. Your grand dads wood stock gun is a different topic.
Anything else is shooter induced and most likely not consistent enough session to session to zero for it.
Well actually a bit more going on than that, but answers are found by testing, reason is so you don't miss that vital shot, a little effort to be a better shot, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork I am curious, do you see additional mechanical factors on the gun? Or is it more about the complete system of gun and shooter?
Fundamentals are, by the means of recoil and harmonics, the barrel and the rifle are moving prior to the release of the bullet, so, how the firearm is supported will change where the bullet impacts, tested, proven logical out come.... Cheers
Setting a rifle up in a lead sled and the like is a good way to test cartridge consistency as it allows for a much more stable hold. However, as you say, you dont hold the rifle like that in practice in the field
Thanks Man
Thanks for sharing brother 😁 knowledge is power see you on the next one.
Cheers Man
Great dope on cold shot. A light bulb just came on!
Awesome, thanks Man