RUN OUT OF PEDAL? How eBike Cadence Sensors & Hub Motors work - Lectric XP and XP Lite Pedal Effect
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- Опубліковано 16 кві 2022
- Free spinning pedals on your eBike at top speed? Does the Lectric XP Lite have the same problem? In this video I talk about how electric hub drive motors work with a cadence sensor on eBikes, and how speed and gearing can affect pedaling at top speed - or what conditions might result in 'Run out of Pedal Effect' where the pedals free spin with no resistance.
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Too funny.
Did not expect a response so fast.
Thanks.
My XP 3.0 in winter biking, while avoiding salted areas, got to point of no pedal assist at all. Everything else was normal including throttle only. Checked connectors, fine. I carefully rinsed off the gritty stuff down by the crank and sensor area (magnets and sensors somewhere but I am not sure exactly where) and let it dry overnight in the house. Worked fine next day. The next week the pedal assist was intermittent. I just used a paper napkin and wiped some grit off around the crank to frame area, and voila. Works fine again. These seem a little sensitive to mud and gunk near the crank. Coldest I biked this winter was 6 degrees. Battery worked fine, but when home, it refused to take a charge. I brought just the battery in overnight and a normal charge. There is no notable issue at say 15 degrees and up. 1200 miles on XP 3.0 and it’s actually a backup e-bike and winter bike. I like Lectric a lot, and their customer service has been most excellent. Other e-bike is Aventon Sinch, a little higher quality and $600 more. Also quite, to very good customer service. On the Aventon I have 8,400 miles. There is an Aventon dealer near by and that is really handy for repairs. At first I preferred the more gentle power application of Aventon, but after getting used to XP, I like the zippiness of that one and a top gear with several fewer teeth, it can whiz along nicely towards the end of the ride near the end of the charge. That’s when I feel I can open it up and burn more electrons for the final several miles. I love the spring loaded seat on Lectric, it’s more of a hard surface bike and faster. I have an expensive but very good Kinekt shock absorber post on the Aventon. That bike is better at slowest speeds dirt and grass trails with less jerky power application. I’m too old to fly over bumps, be radical. That hurts. I guess now that I know an Aventon dealer is 20 miles away, I’d stick with that brand for ease of tougher repairs. Lectric did send me the hydraulic brake kit, once that was on, wow ! I’m instantly and totally hooked on hydraulic. I got the Aventon dealer to also convert my Sinch to hydraulic. I am no lightweight and with hydraulic brakes, I can slam them on at 20 mph and lay rubber to a stop. Go down a steep hill with confidence. Keep on e-biking !!! I sold my Yamaha 125cc scooter after getting e-bike. It seemed a little redundant, sucked up some needed garage space, and changing its oil was a pain plus winterizing syndrome. I have gone as much electric as possible for town life. No EV tho, not at $50k to $80k. And it seems nationwide we need thousands of additional charge stations for longer trips. Adios and have a good day.
Kevcentral is by far the best bike channel on UA-cam. I think Lectric should ve supplying you with their lite bike as you get a lot of views. Your review was the one I paid closer attention to before ordering our 3rd Lectric bike!
3 Lectrics…nice! What models?
Thanks for making it easy to understand and for helping out the riders new to the ebike world.
I love your channel, I can’t wait to see more project bike videos
Great video great way to explain the run out of pedal effect 👍
Very educational video. Thank you keV central
I knew there was a channel I forgot to add back on to my UA-cam account after having my other channel removed for unpopular opinions..
Anyway..wow your channel is doing great ..love the ebike stuff .. fatbike ..Walmart mods..after months away from viewing..your heading in the right direction.. love the content. A+
I feel like I have just graduated from Kev Central U! Happy Easter!!
Happy Easter 🐰 to you too!
Another great video.
Thanks for showing us this video, I was thinking similarly, wanting to have some gearing for the lite.
For me since I was running out of resistance at top speed, I swapped the gears for 11-28 in my xp2.
Yes that is what I want to do.
just put a bigger chainring? add some links to your chain so its not tight
Great video. Can you describe more how easy the XP lite is to pedal with no power like if you ran out of power five miles from home on flat ground?
From what I was able to calculate, base on it being a 54 to 18 gear ratio and a 2.4 inch tire on a 20 inch rim, you would need to pedal at about 107 RPM to maintain 19.8 mph. This is quite fast, but many experienced cyclists could maintain that. Some less experienced cyclists may have trouble maintaining that.
Also, I would like to point out that you said that having gears make it easier to pedal. Some gears will make it easier to pedal, but other gears will make it more difficult to pedal. Since the Lectric XP 2.0 has gears, and appears to have the same chainring, I would guess that in the hardest gear it would be less likely to have run-out, but in the easiest gear, that there would definitely be run-out.
I envy your mathematical mind 🙃. Most riders of eBikes with multiple gears leave their eBike on the easiest gear. Also, factor in that even with the 7-speed gear range that XP 2.0 will do 28mph.
Well 90 pedal strokes per minute is the sweet spot for road cyclists .
Why no mention of how to improve this by putting on a larger chainring?
Hey happy Easter Kev and all 🐓🍻🐓🍻
Happy Easter to you too 🐣. Don’t forget to contact me to get your sticker!
I'm thinking of lowering the gear ratio to help the motor get started and improve my range. I rarely pedal faster than 10 mph if I'm not going downhill. I think helping the motor start would really improve my range as I weigh about 240. How would you do it if you were going to lower the gear ratio?
Which is best to remove ghost pedalling? Bigger chainring or smaller cogs for a single speed ebike?
Just bought an XP Lite, should be shipping here shortly. You mentioned that the gearing is 54/18, would it be possible to swap the freewheel for a 16t on this motor hub? It should use a standard freewheel right? Since I figure I would be running close to top speed most of the time it would make the pedal cadence a lot more "cruiser" with less spinning.
Love the video. I know a lot of people with the 1.0 and 2.0 who swapped out the freewheel to help the ghost pedal effect. Can you swap the rear cog on this one to one to help?
Thanks. I Too swapped my gen1 freewheel. I don’t feel the need to change this one
How you replace the freewheel on the xp lite, and where to buy it.
Happy Easter Kevin to you and your family
Same to you! Happy Easter 🐰
I've found KT controllers torque simulation helps with that.
One simply needs to understand the relationship between pedaling cadence, gear selection, bike speed and motor power output.
On my cadence sensor, hub drive bike, I feel negligible resistance on the pedals at around 32 km/hr when I am using my comfortable pedalling cadence of around 65 RPM. If I wanted to feel noticeable resistance again and actually speed up the bike, I just need to pedal faster (but that's uncomfortable). Or, I could also reduce the power output from the motor. This will reduce the bike's speed to a point where there is comfortable resistance at a comfortable pedalling RPM.
Honestly, this is all intuitive for someone who's riden an ebike. So it makes me think that those who don't understand have never riden one.
Thanks for commenting. I find that most riders who complain about run-out-of-pedal tend to run their bikes at max assist all the time
Can you check if Walmart have new caborn x 29 2022 edition
The XP Lite is the same weight as a 🛴 Segway Ninebot Max w/Seat! 😱 Imagine taking this on a bus or train bc it’s so lite! 🥰 I’m from a Moped EScooter ⚡️🛵 background, & am about to get into the ebike 🚲world! My 👀’s are on the XP Lite/ RadRunner 2/ Veego 750!
If I lived in a city I would definitely bike more. Or have a honda grom. One of the two.
Do you have a extra bike or something I could buy?
Is there a rear cassette you can recommend for the 2.0 to help reduce the amount of run out of pedal effect?
wouldnt a bigger chainring be easier to install and cheaper?
Am I to assume we are never going to see more about the Ride1up roadster v2?
This is helpful, but one thing this doesn't explain is why there is no pedal resistance on an xp 2 at each power level. When I select power level 1 the slightest bit of pedaling takes me up to 5 or 6 miles an hour and then there is resistance if I want to go faster. Same thing for power level 2, except that the bike goes up to about 10 miles per hour before I hit resistance, and power level 3 is the same except it occurs at about 15 miles per hour. You get the picture. This is in contrast to my regular bike that I added a swytch kit to where the power levels decrease pedal resistance gradually as the power level is increased but resistance is felt at all speeds. In other words, on the xp2 the power level selects the speed at which resistance is felt, which is practically useless to the point where I basically use it as a throttle bike only.
100% - I concur - The pedal assist is useless and almost a misnomer - sure u can shut the power off and have almost normal resistance - have u found out anything further that may increase resistance? this guy claims that he set bile back to 20MPH top speed from 28MPH and the resistance returned - Not with me - no resistance in normal mode no resistance in 28MPH mode
This is amazing info. Above 20mph there is practically no helping on a hub motor. Torque sensing I’m assuming is what you need in order to go above the limit of 20mph on a hub driven motor. That has to be a big reason as to why torque sensing, and more in particular mid drives allow one more range from the battery as you are actually helping the motor in those higher ranges especially.
Hub motors actually have no restrictions on front chainrings. You can actually have a wider 3x setup with front derailleur so you would have no problem assisting the bike if you had something like 58T on the front and 11T on the rear up to ridiculous speeds however I think the small wheels are an issue. Ultimately though if you are at speeds where you can't assist the hub motor and have limited gearing no point spinning fast just spin slow and save wear and tear on the chain etc.
Here in the UK its a mute point anyway. We are restricted to 15.5mph assisted so no one will spin out. Going above 15.5mph you are on your own. Some people have illegal ebikes admittedly that go above that but the majority are legal ebikes.
I have to disagree with that. The run out of pedal effect is from the combination of gearing, wheel size and cadence (the speed in RPMs that you pedal)
.
Use 700c as an example. A 700C rim is 2199.11mm in circumference. We'll round that to 2.2Meters. If your tallest gear is 4:1, that is 8.8 meters for every 1 turn of the pedals. Most people can comfortably (and effectively) pedal up to 120rpm, which is 2 revolutions per second, which is 17.6 meters per second for 4 to 1 gearing and a 700c wheel size. That comes out to 39.37MPH. This effectively means you are limited to around 40mph using pedals on a bike with 700C wheels/tires and a 4 to 1 tallest gear (say 48 in the front and 12 on the back)
A folding bike has smaller wheels and that can make a huge difference as do gears.
The smaller rim size is like a gear reduction. For simpler math, imagine you had a 350C wheel (exactly 1/2 of the 700c), that would cut your top speed down to 20MPH.
If the tallest gear is less than 4:1 (meaning 4 rotations of the wheel for every 1 rotation of the crank), this will further cut down on your top speed.
@@tarstarkusz So we are in agreement then because I said the small wheels are an issue. However in your analysis you limited yourself to 48 teeth in the front and 12T in the rear but you can easily exceed that and get 56T x 11T etc.
This is all theory for me though as the UK, EU and a few other countries have more limited assistance speeds so near impossible to spin out unless you choose the wrong gear because of the 15.5mph max assisted speed. Over here its better to tweak the gearing to towards high gearing as the motor assists with the hills so you don't need as good low gearing but for when the motor cuts out you want higher gearing for the flats and downhill. We do have a few single speed models that could get close to spinning out but because of the 15.5mph limit don't. Many mid-drive motors limit cadence so less of an issue I guess on some models if you got to 80-90 cadence the motor assist would cut off. I think newer models have raised the cap mainly although models designed for long term reliability rather than performance tend to have a lower cadence limit. Hub motors are completely independent of the drivetrain so no limits of any kind on drivetrain choice or cadence. You just need to make sure your own efforts can support the motor well for the hills. A single speed setup seems less than ideal for very steep hills but it does depend on rider strength and weight.
@@bonzobanana1 Just so you know, my reply was to the OP.
I was just using the 12/48 gear combinations as an example that isn't fractional.
While the example I listed wouldn't ever be a problem because most people cannot pedal to 40mph unless going down a hill, 20 is more of a run out of pedal scenario. Though even with 20, you are getting close to the limit of pedaling for most people. The amount of energy needed to go faster rises increasingly exponential, especially as wind becomes the primary force you are fighting as you go faster. (while most bikers can go 15mph without a problem, 30mph is beyond most people's abilities because of the massive wind resistance at that speed. Going twice as fast (alone) requires 4 times the energy plus wind resistance),
The rules in Europe are pretty harsh.
I ride a XP 2.0 & with the stock freewheel, I could get 21 mph in 7th gear. Changed the freewheel to 11-28 I get 28 mph with some work.
I can't ghost pedal my torque sensor Shimano E8000 and EP8 motors. They always need some decent push on the pedals to run, but they engage very quickly, far faster than half a turn. They can over run slightly at v high cadence which can be super useful on tech climbs.
You also very much know about it when they turn off at 15.7mph - like hitting a wall!
my TSDZ2 is much the same way, though as I turned the limiter off, I don't have that brick wall effect. It's more gradual than that, as the poor 250w motor sold as a 750 cries and overheats....
I think this would be good for my wife, so she doesn't have to worry about gears. I think for myself, I like the more powerful Cargo.
Ever thought about building a mid drive ebike out of one of the big box bikes for a cheap ebike? And making a video of it?
I’ve thought about it, but the cost of a kit, battery, etc usually ends up being more than a good prebuilt bike
You are essentially coming up against the wind, at 19.8 mph and one gear, the motor will only give you 19.8 and you physically probably can't push the bike past that speed because of wind resistance. (Heavy bike, no areo, 1 gear) That is probably the resistance you start to feel at the top end. Either that or the motor is pushing you way faster than your legs could possibly spin to go faster than 19.8mph because of that gear ratio. But in this case it would be more like you described with the hill where the drive/gravity or motor outpaces the riders ability.
It’s going to take more than 19.8mph to wind-limit even a heavy bike given enough gearing and determination to surpass that speed. Motors and legs 😁. Thanks for commenting.
why cant go faster even im pedaling and it has still resistance / can still go faster if the motor and you can adjust the gear.
Grear ratio is the question
Do you recommend the highest gear when riding an e bike on flat grounds for newbies?
That comes with a catch 22: If they’re total newbies, do we really want them riding unlocked at 28mph until they learn how everything works?
@@KevCentral No I meant class 2 or 20 mph. I just could not see myself riding an e bike at 28 mph.
Oh. Nah. I think most new riders want to pedal as easy as possible. Plus, starting out on a high gear makes it difficult to get that 1/2 pedal revolution to start the motor assist.
I generally start in gear 1, 28 tooth and pas 1, once up to speed, 8mph or so, switching to higher gears depending on how much resistance I want. As I go up in pas speeds, i will change the gears accordingly. I swapped my gears for 11-28 so in gear 7, 11 tooth, i can still have some resistance at 28mph on flat ground. This on my xp2.
Think of it this way: on a non electric bike, everyone has a pedalling cadence they're comfortable with. And this cadence is a result of the power output they're comfortable with from their legs. So that doesn't change. What changes is the gear you select in order to achieve that cadence without either killing your muscles or spinning your legs pointlessly cuz there's no resistance.
Now when you add a motor, you have the ability to add as much power as you want, regardless of what your legs can do. So if you use a lot of motor power, you will be forced to select a higher gear to feel a comfortable level of pedalling resistance to push against. That's why, on an ebike, you have to not only select the gear that's comfortable, but the pedal assist (motor power output) level that's comfortable for you.
All of this sounds complicated but it's second nature when you actually ride
Does it have any option to work without the censor ???
Are you asking if you can ride it without pedal assist?
On the XP, you need to change the rear sprocket, to one with a 11 tooth ring on it.
Are e-bikes allowed on your local trails? They've been banned at all my local mtb trails.
Yep
I'm not sure I understand what is happening here. My wife and I ride together often, I ride my Rad Rover 6 Plus and she is on her Lectric 2.0. When I'm in peddle assist 3 and 3rd gear, she has to be in peddle assist 5 and 7th gear. I traded her bikes and found the Lectric hard to ride because even in 7th gear and 3 assist I felt like I was just free peddling with no resistance. Is there and adjustment for the Lectric to fix the problem?
That’s the run out of pedal effect. I’m assuming you unlocked her bike to the 28mph top speed?
@@KevCentral No, I didn't unlock the speed on the bike, I just can't figure out why my Rad doesn't have the same issue and wondered if there was an adjustment to balance the gear to peddle assist a bit.
It’s a matter of gearing vs motor output to keep the run out of pedal effect from happening. Example: the new Lectric Xpedition does not run out of pedal.
@@KevCentral Thanks
@@kentthompson6495 You need to either change the freewheel to 11t highest gear, or change the front chainring for more teeth, or both. If you haven't worked that out already since your comment lol. 11-28 7 speed is the sweet spot for a freewheel. For the front, 50 maybe? But I'd just go for the freewheel and try it.
I had a guy block me over this type of question. People constantly confuse sensors and drive types. Hub motors must have cadence and mid must have torque, wrong.
There are torque bases hub drive. I’ve reviewed on (maybe two?) in the past. Coincidentally, I’ve also reviewed a mid drive bike that had cadence instead of torque 😮
Edit: someone blocked you for stating that?
@@KevCentral The person asked if they could ghost pedal on a mid drive mountain bike like they do with their hub drive. I told them it was not a drive type question, but a sensor question.
Likely a moot point as most prebuilt mid drive bikes are torque sensing, but one should understand sensors AND drive types.
That's precisely it, I have a torque sensing hub drive, it's excellent.
Wow too funny about being blocked.
many times my XP 1.0 motor will go and will hardly move the pedal, when I say hardly, 1/4 of an inch and it shot me into my fence one day, lol. Bike, me and fence were not harmed, but did scare the Bajesus out of me. Proof that it can push more than 500 watts and my scrawny butt into the house siding, fence and doesn't like stop signs sometimes either, slightly touch pedal and it suddenly thinks it has 3000 watts of nut case in that motor, lol. (and yes, I do stop for stop signs, but my bike has other ideas once stopped, lol). There is a setting for the cadance, but I leave the computer alone, probably mess things up royally and end up in some river one day do to my bike thinking its christine, lol.
They eventually toned down the instant torque sensation that got so much attention with the Gen1. My prototype has the full output, and it can be a handful if I make a mistake 😁
What is the practical effect of this information? Why does it matter? I've never ridden an ebike, only multi-speed pedal bikes.
Because many people complain about the run out of pedal effect. You can duplicate the effect on your multi speed. Put it in low gear and then try to accelerate down a big hill. That’s the same effect, but on an (some) eBike that can happen on flat ground.
Run out of pedal all the time on my XP 2.0
I think I would be afraid to go 28mph on a folding bike.
😁 Let's you know you are alive! I suppose even folding bike users can get addicted to the adrenaline that comes with pushing through the sensible limits of their equipment.
@@rossmacintosh5652 That's why I like amusement park rides. Gives you the illusion of danger without actually being in any real danger. A cheaply made Chinese folding bike at 30mph feels dangerous because it is dangerous. But as you say, it reminds you that you're alive.
@@tarstarkusz I fully agree that for frames (and components) there are design limits that should not be exceeded. The host of UA-cam influencers that advocate removing e-bike controller restrictions for more speed & power rarely explain the risks. Those influencers know nothing about their followers' equipment or riding conditions so their information can be really irresponsible (and perhaps even criminally negligible). At least with a manufacturer we can have some trust that their factory settings & component/frame specifications are reasonably safe out of the box. I note that some influencers will talk about the risk of braking local laws. They never speak to the risk of having a frame/fork/stem break or the severe injury that could result.
I guess you don' t have a Ride1Up Core-5 (49 lbs) with a 750w (1000 peak) motor, 7 speed cassette, 27.5" tires, 48v 10a battery. That would work easily on your bike stand as well. Frankly the XP Lite should be lighter (and cheaper) for what you are getting. Its has a niche market so I get it, but unless you absolutely HAVE to get a folding bike.....mehhhh.
The Core-5 costs $250 more and it does not have mounting points for a front basket/rack. Those are both major things for me. Personally, I also prefer a single-speed setup on these hub drive eBikes rather than a geared drivetrain like the Core-5's (especially a low-end geared drivetrain like that one). Just less to fuss around with maintenance-wise, and I don't find gears necessary when I can just use the motor to get up hills.
Maybe she just doesn't believe you can pedal 20 mph Kev lol
Funny
First
Move the sensor to the wheel.
Then the power would come on anytime the wheel moves, which could be dangerous
You don't have a throttle on?
You need to be very careful about pedal run-out, especially on a single speed. Single speed ebikes are geared funny, for a reason. I know you don't want it to happen, but, if you lose the motor for whatever reason, you are going to have a beast of a bike that you can't pedal on anything except level ground. I have a single speed ebike, the very first thing I did, ride it with the power off to make sure I could get it home without power. If not, it was going back and I would buy a geared ebike. Top speed is 22 mph and you are pedaling like crazy. If you want a fast ebike, buy one, they are out there, but, you will pay. Not less than $1,000 like the Lectric ebikes can be had. Pedal your ebike with the power off for miles (not just yards, miles, like 10+), you will figure it out very quickly. Fast ebikes can be had... usually $2,000 and up very rapidly.
Pretty much any eBike is a pain without power due to the weight. One advantage the XP Lite has it the lightweight. It’s about equal to pedaling a big box 40+lb single speed cruiser without power.
…but yes, learning the range capabilities of a bike and staying within the capabilities is important for a non-eventful journey back 😁
Honestly I've always been under the assumption that single speed-ebikes, particularly the fast step, thru ones, are E-scooters which only have pedals for token legal compliance. Like those Xtreme scooters of ages past where the pedals could detatch (there was even a compartment to stow them, lol). Without a derailleur, you're going to be in for a bad bad time if your battery runs out.
Though going fast on the cheap is what conversion kits are for really.
@@DFX2KX my single speed ebike is pedal assist only. If you take off the pedals, you ain't going anywhere.
@@david78212 ... I assume you live in a place where throttles are illegal on E-bikes then? Because I can't think of any other reason to give up both a derailur *and* a throttle. Perhaps it's the same appeal as Fixies, which I also don't understand.
As you noted, you have to be able to pedal the bike with a dead battery, which means it's geared too low to let you pedal at a decent cadence at high speed. That seems to defeat the whole purpose of an E-bike.
@@DFX2KX nope, throttles are not illegal, I bought it intentionally that way. Where I live is pretty flat, not completely though. I also don't want to be on a bicycle doing over 20mph. I've talked to several people that have single speed ntbs and they never once missed a geared bike. I can pedal mine at ~19MPH without pedalling too fast. If you have a lot of (smaller) hills, I see the need for 1) a throttle 2) gears, if you actually plan on starting by pedalling. I actually talked to a guy riding and XP, not pedaling at all, he said he was getting his "exercise". Throttles on ebikes can be a double edged sword.
2:58 take the chain off if you actually want to demonstrate something
Without the chain would have removed half of the point being made
I think she had a stroke
😳 nah, she’s just running into what many people discover when on a fast bike with a hub drive, gears and cadence sensor
Yeah my spelling and grammar were off. 😊
I think peddling like a bat out of hell with a frenzy to keep up with some resistance is very inefficient. Seems like you have issues with a woman correcting you.:)