Yes. -Huge straight over the top windmilling stroke for 50m (also no breathing or gliding on a 50 obvsly) -for 100 and 200 I go with more of a bent elbow recovery and a sort of a-symmetric hop (you know, like Phelps (in my dreams, haha)) -and anything longer than that, or open water, I do pretty much the same as Mark :)
Hey guys, former collegiate swimmer and current swim coach here! Biggest issue here is a lack of catch. When Heather is talking about "moving backwards without her legs", this is what she is getting at. The idea is hinging at the elbow, creating a paddle with the hand and forearm. This allows you to use the large muscle groups in your back and chest to drive your "paddle" through the water. To get a good idea of how this would feel, think about your hand and arm positioning when getting out of the pool. This should be practiced with hands just inside your shoulders. Another talking point was the difference in over water recovery. The thought process behind distance freestyle used to be that high elbow recovery helped set up the arm for an immediate catch upon entry; however, many elite swimmers are going away from this technique as it risks putting the shoulder at an unnatural angle. A great example of this is Katie Ledecky. Her over water recovery is reminiscent of an open water swimmer as it is a much more natural stroke. It greatly reduces the likelihood of shoulder injury during training and is arguably just as efficient. All in all, great and informative video!
I just learned that in my last open water session, after I kept getting hit by the waves, my "gentle" pool swimming style made me drinking some salt water. So I started doing bigger and stronger strokes, making bigger splashes on the water to counter the waves, and loved it!
Great vid. Now I finally understand why open water technique is so important for open water swimming! One point you missed though. Pool stroke is great for a pool training session with 5 others in your lane. Less chance of arm clash!
Great video. It's refreshing to see you both enjoying making this video and having a good time. It's pushing me to maybe get a coach to work on my technique.
It should also be noted that Heather's technique is that of a sprint swimmer, not just pool swimming vs open water. Her heavy kick, straight arm pull, and off-time entry-pull is not typical in distance pool swimmers.
I'm trying to incorporate more of the open water technique in my pool swims. Getting my stroke rate up seems to be the challenge for me. One thing I did take away from this video is that when I do open ocean swims at the beach and I'm wearing my full sleeve wetsuit, I guess I've been trying to do the pool technique and keep my elbow bent and high, which is really tough. I never thought that the wetsuit itself would be forcing my arm straight. I'll have to keep that in mind the next time I do out. Thanks for the great video.
Appreciate the explanation, obvi Mark's open water stroke is a functional stroke; the pool stroke is aesthetically pleasing but also very effective. Good work.
Thank you for this video. I'm not as fit as you two so focused my technique on swim-smooth style for efficiency compared to a typical pool swimmer whose stroke is aimed at short bursts of high power. I've tried to emulate the technique of 1500m swimmers which exaggerates the glide part of the stroke. I'll be giving your technique a try though! Keep up the great work.
Gregg W have a look at Gregorio Paltrinari (1500m Olympic champion) He has a very high cadence and pretty much no glide (or kick) at all ;) (Also bear in mind that all those guys are monsters who swim at a sub minute per 100m pace when you compare yourself to them, haha)
i bought my orange buoy and silicone swim cap on amazon - it has extra room for ears and is longer to accommodate my neoprene “ear band “ . it was rated most visible. my swim buddy has set in pink
The biggest difference I notice in your strokes, the last bit of this clip, is that Mark tends to do full arm extension before his hand enters the water for the catch and pull, and Heather does maybe slightly over half arm extension before her arm/hand comes into the water for the catch and pull.
This is very simply explained higher arms for open water for waves and chop. Lower for still water like pools, as soon as you try pool stroke in the sea with waves you'll very quickly realise it causes drag.
Seeing Henri Schoemann and Vince Luis and Katie Zaferes come out at the front with very nice pool strokes has dispelled any sort of worry that my tidy stroke is bad in a triathlon 😂
"Buoyancy" plays a role more on stroke, with Pool water which is a bit hard you need to shoot your finger and glide, but in open water you can oft to open palm for you to get the glide automatically since its softer and easy to pull : ) cheers
50 fast windmill vs gliding. I tend to only use windmill when I'm training hard or ocean swimming against the current. Other than that is mainly long distance gliding
Heather should try middle finger hand entry, pool and open water strokes. Start your catch as soon as your hand is in. Would make a surprising difference I think. 👍👍👍
I have changed my stroke recently to a more open water style. It’s knocked 10s/100m off my threshold pace! I’m the same as Mark - pool stroke makes me drop my elbow and lose my catch,
Justin De Jager we’ll explain this in a video properly. The ‘s’ shape is an old school teaching, whereas swimmers tend to use a straight pull now. It would be interesting to look into this more. The thought with the ‘s’ pull is that it offloads during the pull phase, so actually less efficient and unnecessary. But we’ll have to look further into that
Are there any variations for people of differing heights? I'm 5'1 with short limbs but very good core (ex gymnast, think Simone Biles type shape) and the first thing I notice is OWS events is I'm the shortest there. My husband who was spectating commented that I seem to need more strokes to achieve the same outcome.
Heather needs to bring her elbow outside more (closer to the surface). The hand crosses into her midsection but should sweep outside the torso. Upper arm at the catch and start of the pull should be along the same straight line as the shoulder.
The stroke rate looks about 25% faster in the open water style. Do you (Mark/Heather) know your SPM differences between pool and open water? As a beginner i measured my difference at around 10%. 66spm for pool and 72spm for open water.
Hi Jonathon, yes both of our stroke rates are faster OW but I've never calculated the difference. It is a video for the future to look into. Keep an eye out.
Hi guys, Thanks for the video. What do you think of Total Immersion swimming technique? I found videos online and it knocked 35mins from my Ironman swim time - I still class myself as a 'non-swimmer' as I've never had lessons but find this technique really gives me confidence in the water. Does it get your approval? My only issue is that it seems to make my stroke rate really slow... :/ Thanks for the advice!! Great channel :)
Edwin Chen Fabulous! Thanks! 👍🏼 I have a black Garmin I bought 2 yrears ago and after seeing this one yesterday I bought a white underwater watch online that looks similar to this. Its a white Polar watch. Thanks from Stockholm! 👍🏼🇸🇪🏊🏼♀️
Anna-Karin, It is indeed the Polar M430 and I love it but not designed specifically for swimming. Keep an eye out on the Polar range though, something exciting is coming.
Wow! Thanks Heather! And thanks for a very inspiring video! I have a black Garmin and the white Polar M200, will definetely keep an eye on all the new Polar watches I swim next to the Swedish team at our national arena 2-3 times a week, Sarah Sjöström and all the others. Sometimes one of their coaches loooks into my mesh bags beacuse I´m a swim gear nerd and bring so much new stuff with me to practice; paddles, fins and even: watches! Thanks from Stockholm and have a good day!
trbeyond it’s hard to say, but there is a little more movement in the water with OW so even in the calmest conditions you won’t get as good traction and pull as the pool. I’d say around 1-2secs per 100 in the calmest, just because of sighting etc. I tended to train for somewhere around 1:07-1:10 per 100 pace for a 1500 in a triathlon. So that’s the kind of intensity I was swimming at in the race, even if the pace was slightly different
This is a very personal question and depends on your swim style etc. In theory you want to go as far as you can per stroke so you want to reduce the number of strokes you take per 25m where possible.
Lucy Becklemore freestyle technically means any stroke. Triathlon swims are freestyle, hence the option to do breaststroke etc. Whereas frontcrawl is the actual frontcrawl stroke. At least, that has always been my understanding. But as someone says the names have become slightly interchangeable
Mark Threlfall yeah interesting, thanks. Here even the commentators during the Olympics call it freestyle (vs breaststroke, backstroke etc) so maybe it’s just us Aussies that have bungled it up.
Freestyle is just the official name of the particular swimming event. When your're competing in freestyle event (let's say Olimpics), you can use any stroke of your choice. But the thing is, the front crawl is the fastest of the four, so it's obvious choice for pro swimmers. The two bacame almost synonymous nowadays.
I will stick to gliding if you don't mind. Pool or Open Water, no difference to me. If I see your cadences, my swim technique would go down the drain after 100 meters. I am somewhat older, so my heart rate zones are automatically narrower. Impossible to built an endurance performance WITH speed upon. But nevertheless I am in awe of watching you. The same goes for good cyclists and runners. Like GTN items very much!!!
It’s a fair point. Heather was definitely winded and it’s only about 50m. Maybe she can hold that for 1 or 2km but I doubt it. But it’s just a demonstration so not like real life or what would happen after a couple months of training. And as she said she will need to learn to kick less. Legs burn most of the energy actually.
If both swimmers breathed earlier in their strokes they'd both go faster :/ Mark is WAY too late, almost 90 degrees out of timing. In any case, the pool stroke is ALWAYS better, look at Lucy Charles, Josh Amberger, Jan Frodeno, all swim with a "pool" stroke, and all typically lead the swims!
Dont know about the other ones, but Lucy Charles has a faster stroke cadence than a pool stroke. Ive watched some of her tutorial videos and she definitely has a very fast turnover on her arms than the long slow pool stroke.
Jesse Mendoza this is the problem, everyone confuses stroke rate with technique! You can certainly up your stroke rate without having to change to a straight arm and all of the subsequent issues this causes down the track like crossing over, snaking, and loss of catch (all occur over time with self coached straight arm swimmers). Given these guides are targeted at someone without a swim coach on deck for most of their sessions, or a specialist technical stroke coach, there should really be some caution exercised in the longevity of the tips. This channel really needs to employ the service of such a specialist to create the content of these videos. They number of swimmers who come to me who have followed UA-cam channels and ruined their swimming strokes is amazing!
Yeah I wouldnt recommend straight arm that seems like a waste of arm motion. Im just talking about not doing the long stroke they are talking about. His straight arm isnt great, but under the water his arms are probably doing what they should be for the most part.
Do you have a different open water and pool stroke?
Yes.
-Huge straight over the top windmilling stroke for 50m (also no breathing or gliding on a 50 obvsly)
-for 100 and 200 I go with more of a bent elbow recovery and a sort of a-symmetric hop (you know, like Phelps (in my dreams, haha))
-and anything longer than that, or open water, I do pretty much the same as Mark :)
From which brand are your Googles Heather?
I don't even know how to swim! 😀😢😭
I'm finding that out NOW!
I doggy paddle the same!
Hey guys, former collegiate swimmer and current swim coach here! Biggest issue here is a lack of catch. When Heather is talking about "moving backwards without her legs", this is what she is getting at. The idea is hinging at the elbow, creating a paddle with the hand and forearm. This allows you to use the large muscle groups in your back and chest to drive your "paddle" through the water. To get a good idea of how this would feel, think about your hand and arm positioning when getting out of the pool. This should be practiced with hands just inside your shoulders.
Another talking point was the difference in over water recovery. The thought process behind distance freestyle used to be that high elbow recovery helped set up the arm for an immediate catch upon entry; however, many elite swimmers are going away from this technique as it risks putting the shoulder at an unnatural angle. A great example of this is Katie Ledecky. Her over water recovery is reminiscent of an open water swimmer as it is a much more natural stroke. It greatly reduces the likelihood of shoulder injury during training and is arguably just as efficient.
All in all, great and informative video!
I just learned that in my last open water session, after I kept getting hit by the waves, my "gentle" pool swimming style made me drinking some salt water. So I started doing bigger and stronger strokes, making bigger splashes on the water to counter the waves, and loved it!
Wonderful comparison, guys! Rrally helpful and the different camera angles affitionally complete the joyment of watching you!
Gotta love the example of open water swimming at 2:10! Agree there are different forms and strokes for different conditions.
It didn't cross my mind that it will be much of a difference. Thanks for the descriptive video. 👍🏿
Glad it was helpful!
Well said about why do have to use different swimming style in open water.. Appreciated
Great vid. Now I finally understand why open water technique is so important for open water swimming! One point you missed though. Pool stroke is great for a pool training session with 5 others in your lane. Less chance of arm clash!
Great video. It's refreshing to see you both enjoying making this video and having a good time. It's pushing me to maybe get a coach to work on my technique.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. A coach is definitely a worthwhile investment.
7:55 SO MUCH BETTER
lmao loved that bit :D
Love this video, shows the massive differences between each style.
I love you, guys. I learnt the basics of swimming from you
This video makes me smile alot! Thanks you two.. good insight into stroke and technique.
It should also be noted that Heather's technique is that of a sprint swimmer, not just pool swimming vs open water. Her heavy kick, straight arm pull, and off-time entry-pull is not typical in distance pool swimmers.
I'm trying to incorporate more of the open water technique in my pool swims. Getting my stroke rate up seems to be the challenge for me. One thing I did take away from this video is that when I do open ocean swims at the beach and I'm wearing my full sleeve wetsuit, I guess I've been trying to do the pool technique and keep my elbow bent and high, which is really tough. I never thought that the wetsuit itself would be forcing my arm straight. I'll have to keep that in mind the next time I do out. Thanks for the great video.
once again great video like always and inspiration from you....thank u
Appreciate the explanation, obvi Mark's open water stroke is a functional stroke; the pool stroke is aesthetically pleasing but also very effective. Good work.
Thank you for making this video and sharing your knowledge!
I love you guys.... you're my inspiration.
Thanks Surypratim, good to hear. Keep at it! 👍
Thank you for this video. I'm not as fit as you two so focused my technique on swim-smooth style for efficiency compared to a typical pool swimmer whose stroke is aimed at short bursts of high power. I've tried to emulate the technique of 1500m swimmers which exaggerates the glide part of the stroke. I'll be giving your technique a try though! Keep up the great work.
Gregg W have a look at Gregorio Paltrinari (1500m Olympic champion)
He has a very high cadence and pretty much no glide (or kick) at all ;)
(Also bear in mind that all those guys are monsters who swim at a sub minute per 100m pace when you compare yourself to them, haha)
Good luck and let us know how you get on!
Have you thought about offering a swim cap in a bright colour for use in open water? My venue wouldn’t allow black caps.
i bought my orange buoy and silicone swim cap on amazon - it has extra room for ears and is longer to accommodate my neoprene “ear band “ . it was rated most visible. my swim buddy has set in pink
Well done Mr Mark and Ms Heather
The biggest difference I notice in your strokes, the last bit of this clip, is that Mark tends to do full arm extension before his hand enters the water for the catch and pull, and Heather does maybe slightly over half arm extension before her arm/hand comes into the water for the catch and pull.
This is very simply explained higher arms for open water for waves and chop. Lower for still water like pools, as soon as you try pool stroke in the sea with waves you'll very quickly realise it causes drag.
What I would like to see are drills to increase your swim rate. Thanks for the video!
Seeing Henri Schoemann and Vince Luis and Katie Zaferes come out at the front with very nice pool strokes has dispelled any sort of worry that my tidy stroke is bad in a triathlon 😂
"Buoyancy" plays a role more on stroke, with Pool water which is a bit hard you need to shoot your finger and glide, but in open water you can oft to open palm for you to get the glide automatically since its softer and easy to pull : ) cheers
Key points (1) faster stroke rate and (2) arm-recovery straight compared to pool swim.
You should make a video on how to do long distance swimming as a 50m-sprinter :)
1:30 over rotating
I have trouble with the shoulder, is one style better for the shoulder than the other?
50 fast windmill vs gliding. I tend to only use windmill when I'm training hard or ocean swimming against the current. Other than that is mainly long distance gliding
Interesting...great insights. Thx.
Heather should try middle finger hand entry, pool and open water strokes. Start your catch as soon as your hand is in. Would make a surprising difference I think. 👍👍👍
hi! did you calculate above-water/looker breath for open water-triathlon swim stroke?
because i think is it part of it...
I have changed my stroke recently to a more open water style. It’s knocked 10s/100m off my threshold pace! I’m the same as Mark - pool stroke makes me drop my elbow and lose my catch,
Mark will be happy to hear that!
Which was your time in the 100m
The other difference I've noticed is Heather has that accentuated "S" hand movement during the pull phase. Is this more efficient?
Justin De Jager we’ll explain this in a video properly. The ‘s’ shape is an old school teaching, whereas swimmers tend to use a straight pull now. It would be interesting to look into this more. The thought with the ‘s’ pull is that it offloads during the pull phase, so actually less efficient and unnecessary. But we’ll have to look further into that
No, it is not more efficient.
Jonathan Echevers I’d be interested to hear why you think the straight pull is not efficient. You’ll need to correct a lot of Olympic swimmers
I was replying to Justin, I agree with you Mark: s-shaped pull is not more efficient. Sorry about the confusion
Apologies :)
So when I train with the pull buoy I swim nearly as fast as when kicking- suspect my legs sink???
Are there any variations for people of differing heights? I'm 5'1 with short limbs but very good core (ex gymnast, think Simone Biles type shape) and the first thing I notice is OWS events is I'm the shortest there. My husband who was spectating commented that I seem to need more strokes to achieve the same outcome.
What is the watch you guys are wearing and what du they measure ?
Do bloopers compilation video!
We have enough for a whole series of videos 😂
Heather needs to bring her elbow outside more (closer to the surface). The hand crosses into her midsection but should sweep outside the torso. Upper arm at the catch and start of the pull should be along the same straight line as the shoulder.
Good job
The stroke rate looks about 25% faster in the open water style. Do you (Mark/Heather) know your SPM differences between pool and open water? As a beginner i measured my difference at around 10%. 66spm for pool and 72spm for open water.
Hi Jonathon, yes both of our stroke rates are faster OW but I've never calculated the difference. It is a video for the future to look into. Keep an eye out.
Hi guys, Thanks for the video. What do you think of Total Immersion swimming technique? I found videos online and it knocked 35mins from my Ironman swim time - I still class myself as a 'non-swimmer' as I've never had lessons but find this technique really gives me confidence in the water. Does it get your approval? My only issue is that it seems to make my stroke rate really slow... :/ Thanks for the advice!! Great channel :)
If it knocked 35min off your swim time, you don’t need a higher stroke rate. Longer and stronger works better for me as well.
Question. Is there a middle ground?
going to give this a go cant wait to see my coach going bat poop crazy and wondering what im doing lol.....
That is the most beautiful white underwater swim watch I’ve ever seen! What is the brand? Is it Garmin? Thanks from Stockholm, Sweden! 👍🏼🏊🏼♀️
It is not a Garmin for sure. It looks like a polar m430 although that model only tracks HR underwater, not swimming distance.
Edwin Chen Fabulous! Thanks! 👍🏼 I have a black Garmin I bought 2 yrears ago and after seeing this one yesterday I bought a white underwater watch online that looks similar to this. Its a white Polar watch. Thanks from Stockholm! 👍🏼🇸🇪🏊🏼♀️
Anna-Karin, It is indeed the Polar M430 and I love it but not designed specifically for swimming. Keep an eye out on the Polar range though, something exciting is coming.
Wow! Thanks Heather! And thanks for a very inspiring video! I have a black Garmin and the white Polar M200, will definetely keep an eye on all the new Polar watches I swim next to the Swedish team at our national arena 2-3 times a week, Sarah Sjöström and all the others. Sometimes one of their coaches loooks into my mesh bags beacuse I´m a swim gear nerd and bring so much new stuff with me to practice; paddles, fins and even: watches! Thanks from Stockholm and have a good day!
Mark - when you were racing pro, what was the difference between your pool pace/100 versus open water (calm conditions)?
trbeyond it’s hard to say, but there is a little more movement in the water with OW so even in the calmest conditions you won’t get as good traction and pull as the pool. I’d say around 1-2secs per 100 in the calmest, just because of sighting etc. I tended to train for somewhere around 1:07-1:10 per 100 pace for a 1500 in a triathlon. So that’s the kind of intensity I was swimming at in the race, even if the pace was slightly different
What was up with Heather's side dive?
can u use butterfly stroke in "ocean?"
How?
Jut don't fart.
AMERICAN LIFESTYE.
Lifestyle.
How many stroke per 25m should i be aiming for when practicing for open water?
James Southcome whatever is fastest/most sustainable for you ;)
frankeeeej haha thanks
This is a very personal question and depends on your swim style etc. In theory you want to go as far as you can per stroke so you want to reduce the number of strokes you take per 25m where possible.
Is this the sun out in England?
Good film 🎥 Guys
Thanks!
What watch is that?
The lady is using thumb first entry which is unnecessary internal rotation of the shoulder putting excessive strain on the rotator cuff and labrum. 🙁
Amazing
Is it just Australians that call this stroke freestyle? Never heard it called front crawl before watching GTN videos 🤓
In the U.S. both names are used interchangeably and, in my experience, equally as often.
Lucy Becklemore freestyle technically means any stroke. Triathlon swims are freestyle, hence the option to do breaststroke etc. Whereas frontcrawl is the actual frontcrawl stroke. At least, that has always been my understanding. But as someone says the names have become slightly interchangeable
Mark Threlfall yeah interesting, thanks. Here even the commentators during the Olympics call it freestyle (vs breaststroke, backstroke etc) so maybe it’s just us Aussies that have bungled it up.
Freestyle is just the official name of the particular swimming event. When your're competing in freestyle event (let's say Olimpics), you can use any stroke of your choice. But the thing is, the front crawl is the fastest of the four, so it's obvious choice for pro swimmers. The two bacame almost synonymous nowadays.
Freestyle is more common in Asia
i only wish hope
I will stick to gliding if you don't mind. Pool or Open Water, no difference to me. If I see your cadences, my swim technique would go down the drain after 100 meters. I am somewhat older, so my heart rate zones are automatically narrower. Impossible to built an endurance performance WITH speed upon. But nevertheless I am in awe of watching you. The same goes for good cyclists and runners. Like GTN items very much!!!
Both seemed more out of breath after the open water stroke
Same thought
It’s a fair point. Heather was definitely winded and it’s only about 50m. Maybe she can hold that for 1 or 2km but I doubt it. But it’s just a demonstration so not like real life or what would happen after a couple months of training. And as she said she will need to learn to kick less. Legs burn most of the energy actually.
Heather's definitely looks more pro!
Masha allah 👍 Nice! Thanks so well
If both swimmers breathed earlier in their strokes they'd both go faster :/ Mark is WAY too late, almost 90 degrees out of timing. In any case, the pool stroke is ALWAYS better, look at Lucy Charles, Josh Amberger, Jan Frodeno, all swim with a "pool" stroke, and all typically lead the swims!
Dont know about the other ones, but Lucy Charles has a faster stroke cadence than a pool stroke. Ive watched some of her tutorial videos and she definitely has a very fast turnover on her arms than the long slow pool stroke.
Jesse Mendoza this is the problem, everyone confuses stroke rate with technique! You can certainly up your stroke rate without having to change to a straight arm and all of the subsequent issues this causes down the track like crossing over, snaking, and loss of catch (all occur over time with self coached straight arm swimmers). Given these guides are targeted at someone without a swim coach on deck for most of their sessions, or a specialist technical stroke coach, there should really be some caution exercised in the longevity of the tips. This channel really needs to employ the service of such a specialist to create the content of these videos. They number of swimmers who come to me who have followed UA-cam channels and ruined their swimming strokes is amazing!
Yeah I wouldnt recommend straight arm that seems like a waste of arm motion. Im just talking about not doing the long stroke they are talking about. His straight arm isnt great, but under the water his arms are probably doing what they should be for the most part.
She: waiting in the water
Also she when he comes by: i'm going to be wet now
Open ocean swimming is alive and never the same dead water like pools,the sea will evolve you as a swimmer and as an individual .
better pool swimmer - work on your flip turns to be better - straight arms!
Who’s got the better stroke, him or me?
Just trying to get my stroke game on point
Open water the Best ofcourse
Mark, or ME. Subject or Object, people.
"Front crawl"... as apposed to... backstroke?
Heather's swim style looks more better, but she's a Lady ;-)
toghter is better
Has no one seen the racing in the olympics etc in the last 10 years? It's mostly straighter arms. Especially the winners.
балалайка
Triathletes know how to swim???