Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel: I've Had Better
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- Опубліковано 8 кві 2020
- Listen to more episodes of 'Where Shall We Begin? with Esther Perel' at audible.com/esther
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A year after the discovery of his affair, they aren’t fighting anymore, but they certainly haven’t moved on. Esther guides them towards a more honest conversation.
Step into iconic relationship therapist Esther Perel’s office and listen as ten anonymous couples in search of insight bare the raw, intimate, and profound details of their story. From infidelity to sexlessness to loss, it’s a space for people to be heard and understood. It’s also a place for us to listen and feel empowered in our own relationships. So…where should we begin? - Розваги
The biggest communication mistake people make is believing that communication has taken place when it hasn't.
Ester I feel you were off here. This man deserves what divorce court is going to do. First he says no he didn't talk to her before the affair then later says oh yes I did try to. Can't stand the double mindedness
Time never exists itself .. it’s what happens in it ..you have to give it meaning ...you have to shape it .. So true !!!
Yes 🧚🏼♀️
Beautiful way of saying it. This is the culprit. Bingo!!
I felt that
It exists but I'd just air without our electricity, Our impulses that give it meaning..Some impulses can heal. Contempt will certainly finish destroying them.
That bit at the end: "your kids are watching you. They're learning from you" was so moving.
P
I
@@joannavanderlaan3699 11
What a clever way to teach about relationship issues, yet protect the participants.
There is no validation in this man. He does not say I am sorry I love you. He does not say it. This is what women want to hear. I have hurt you and I am sorry and the actions change. In most cases we just go back into the relationship hoping he will change but he keeps doing it his way. He does not go out with her. He travels alone. It's painful. I feel this woman.
Validation is all In the mind anyways.
Everything you are saying is 100% valid. However, none of it can be proven true or false from this audio clip alone. What is not said in this specific intervention does not imply he has not tried validating her concerns in any space of time before this. Or after this. This sentiment seems to be more of your projection based on your feelings about the subject matter, which is perfectly fair and valid.
To my mind he can never be sorry because he hs never been sincere with any of the relationships. How long can a camel go without water? Sex for the sake of sex will never keep a relationship together in the true sense of its meaning. They have become acquaintances and stay together for the sake of the kids. Sad, but very common. This lady ha been wounded, however the fact that she has gone to a therapist gives some hope.
I think that's a pretty shallow review and most guys, take it from a guy, those guys never arrive at cheating easily. It usually comes after years of marital strife. I'm not trying to paint with a broad brush, but you women are no easy to get along with. You're picky, you're demanding, many of you are very high maintenance. You demand the world and return little to the relationship. You demand honesty but return little of that. You expect grace but show none in return.
The reality of it is, in many western countries, the burden of performance is on the man but there are little to no expectations from women. The man must provide, he must protect, he must be a great husband and a great father. If he fails in any of those areas, he's a total failure. Women? As long as you're a passable mother, you're a success.
That burden is enforced by the family courts and usually comes down quite hard on the man, while going quite light on the mother. That unequal sense of responsibility and power bleeds into the relationship. Many men that I know echo many of the same complaints that I have and the reality of it is, men have little to no authority in a modern relationship, so there is no burden on the woman to change at all. Remember, responsibility without authority is slavery.
@@adrianm8212 no it isn't all in the mind, it's something a partner should do for the other person in a relationship. if you don't understand that, you shouldn't be in a relationship.
They don’t hear each other at all. You must integrate yourself into your partner’s experience so that they feel heard and validated. Brilliant, empathy creates intimacy.
He chose to travel when she said she was lonely. That was the end of it.
He said that he felt like he lived a double life with his parents and that became the norm. I’m guessing he did things behind their back not meaning to because of course he loved them , it was survival for him but he was also not heard and he did say he cheated in other relationships because again double life seemed normal. I believe he did what he did because the double life is natural for him it would not matter who his wife was. That is something that he should deal with if he wants to stay faithful. I learnt this about my self , I’m speaking from my own experience and for that I thank you.
So sad
Did this man apologise? I may be wrong but I don’t hear remorse. He rather centres around what was missing for him rather than his action of betrayal. Her wounded-ness is analysed rather than really seen and accepted and held. I don’t feel much empathy for him I’m afraid. And I don’t think her pain has shocked him enough to change.
I just listend to it and I don’t like the selfish vibes I get from this guy 😰
I think the apology has already happened. They are at the next phase. You have to leave judgment of people based on gender behind. ‘All men are selfish’ was even discussed by Esther and how unhelpful it is.
He said he's done this before too other women before his marriage too - this is his problem, not hers.
@@elliec4154 as much as I agree she does share some blame, her fault is different and although not as void of morality it still is affecting her well being. This is the most common outcome of moving into a serious relationship when one or both people aren’t “whole” independently sound people that need to latch on to next scapegoat for their unaddressed issues. A relationship isn’t worth the investment until at very least it’s between 2 “whole” individuals, comfortable and confident in where they are on there journey. There’s plenty of other ways they will be challenged even assuming they begin from here.
He's a ridiculous player
Ester Perel. You are inspiring. This is art: You put so much wisdom condensed into few words. This is doing enormous impact on therapy. Thank you!!!!!
Heres the thing once resentment goes unaddressed the relationship is over. After going through this I can tell easily his lack of remorse and willingness to take accountability for the pain he's caused. There is no instance in recovery that pushing the both parties are to blame narrative is productive. Trauma from betrayal is very real and intense and when its not been made apparent that the unfaithful has honestly chosen to stay for more than it being easier and It was only brought into the open because he was caught its sooo hard to believe they are there for the right reasons. Trust is a strange thing because while its possible to trust in some aspects the fact is you know what they are easily capable of doing and the person you married you did not have that realization. Bottom line is the unfaithful has the duty of remaining with them in their pain without making it about themselves and how hard its been for him.. How strange Esthers approach is here rather than first addressing the pain of the betrayal and setting a coarse for heathy healing.. She's called him out saying that's a lie yet Esther seams to take everything the cheater says as the truth. ID bet money you could ask the women he was cheating with to describe sex with him and it would sound very similar to the sex he says he hates with his wife.
The relationship is not over then. Why are us women so inclined to feel like victims most of the time?
It's probably because we don't have the physical strength of men and we have learned this technique to get some power.. we are asking through manipulation of portraying ourselves as helpless and the victim..
But it's hurting us most of the time.. We need to take more accountability and try to understand our emotions more and balance them when they're out of whack.
Yes, he was at fault most definitely for what he chose to do, but she wasn't "calling him out", she actually didn't understand both of their needs, she wasn't connected to herself, she was living as she thought she had to from what she had seen around. Women are conditioned this way by society unfortunately.
They both had some issues, they were both lacking in communication, in being themselves. Many things were too superficially addressed.
Humans need deeper connections. If you don't have that and say you're good, then you're actually numbing yourself, lying to yourself and trapping your emotions inside.
This affair could be the best thing that happened for both of them. Because they were both stupid enough to not create a real connection with the other, and something had to happen for them to see and face their issues.
I hope she manages to be more open minded, and to open her heart more, because she seems very defensive, and that's a harmful thing in relationships.
But I do like how she is honest about how she feels sexually.
Women need more honesty around sex, and to be more empowered to be themselves, to honor their truths, to FEEL what they really feel, not what they think they should because it's what seems to be like for others. And that will help create more meaningful and truthful relationships.
Accountability is never a zero-sum game. As a divorce lawyer I’ve represented many couples splitting up due to infidelity. Almost never did it occur in a vacuum. It’s just rare for it to be the infidelity. Something else always came first. That thing may not be on the list of legal reasons to get divorced, but it doesn’t have to be. It’s almost always as much or more destructive as the infidelity.
Can you give an example of something that was worse than infidelity, that lead to infidelity?
Thank you so much for this. Deeply appreciate your authenticity!
Esther Perel is an outstanding counselor!
This was amazing. Thank you so much 😍😪🙏🌺✨🌿💗
I love the way Esther unpacks everything
wow.. this is so helpful. Thanks for sharing! We need more of this examples really to learn from
Not really.
I believe men get jealous of their own children. Another woman fills the man"s emptiness. On the other perspective, the demand for the children just takes so much of the mother's energy. This is where the children, the time, five minutes of sex occurs. It is a difficult time for any marriage.
You hit the nail on the head....
yeh so then men have to grow up.
1. it's not reasonable behaviour for the man to get jealous of his child AT ALL. At that point, he needs to work on himself to fix his priorities.
2. " the demand for the children just takes so much of the mother's energy" - this should also be the case for the father so if he is offloading all of the responsibility onto the mother, that's a massive issue on his part.
Love it!
He says he did not want it to happen so why did he let it happen?
His saying, “it was / is not my intention to …. ABC, 123..”
He insists his perspective is so different and excuses it as “it may be wrong, but…”
He is lying. He is manipulating. I do not believe he loves her. He is using her for the family appearance and the home base.. I don’t think he even likes her.. no empathy that I can hear.. excuses, deflections and blame shifting.. my respect for Ms. Perel has gone down several notches.. this man has some massive issues.. and Ms. Perel is enabling him to hide behind his entitlement.. no compassion, no empathy, without that, there is nothing wife can do to make the husband feel less abandoned or less heard or seen..
I also think it has a lot to do with upbringing. I am Polish, and this woman being Russian..i imagine that i can relate. My parents were brought up in communist Poland, and it was cold. My dad had to sneak into nazi germany for supplies for weeks at a time. My mother wondering if he would come back this time.
My dad said while bringing me up, he wasnt even half as cruel as my grandfather. But my dad also told me that i should die or be killed many times as a child.....
Hes not a bad guy...anyway
I feel so relatable to this woman but i dont have a marriage and i dont have kids. I was married for 4 years and i was unfaithful, angry, just terrible to my ex husband.
But..yea, men in her upbringing is a big part.
Cultural point: I think when she says 'survive together' is more in a sense of 'weather adversity' rather that 'can the relationship outlast the infidelity'. She means macro issues: war, penury, debilitating sickness. When he says 'I think we can survive this' I think he means the infidelity.
Like sure, it can 'survive this', but now the relationship is a leaky old boat instead of strong new ship and if the storm hits, everyone and the three kids are done
Right,. he's so infantile
Please do more!
@Dillards Shopper Thank you so much for recommending the two episodes, bawling 😭 Beautiful, strong, genuine love ❤️
What the actual crap is going on with the comments?! Can we just LISTEN and pause the judgement for a second? You DO NOT know the whole of their relationship from a 40 min podcast.
It’s very unusual to find a whole picture in 40 minutes, i agree. Nevertheless the tone for the most part is odd given his betrayal. Obviously he can’t be remorseful forever, or all the time, but the session IS about problems in their relationship. He misses an opportunity to communicate some much needed consideration and respect. I think that’s what’s missing.
@@lorrainefothergill6219 exactly.
I can hear him in 3 minutes, don’t need 40.
He’s a narcissist
You shouldn't be surprised that you can learn a lot about a person and his/her values/morals in 40 minutes. Our instinct on these things is usually pretty accurate.
Triggered much
We found the white knight.
Thanks for learning today Esther
Really?The woman was left alone to take care three little children, he was traveling all the time and sex is the problem? How do I get the impression that the woman is getting the blame of her husbands infidelity? Maybe the solution is, both of them to leave their duties, their obligations, their children and live only to have as good sex as they can. Thats the meaning of life?
Unbelievable right ?!?
this Gurl needs to drop everything leave him with the three children for only 1 month. He can then think if he can continue about selfish egocentric ways that he’s been keeping up since his socialization.
💩💩💩
I'm not even 10mins in and already i can see how selfish this man is instead of trying to fix his household he fed his own ego and desire. What a joke. With kids on the line too, this is upsetting.
@Dillards Shopper after finishing the episode it's clear they have serious communication issues and both have an underlying pattern of behaviour that is resistant to change and healing, it's also interesting that he cheated before in other relationships too and he usually can justify it when the relationship dies down, but he doesn't help to keep it flourishing either, overall an interesting case, i think Ester was trying to get the woman out of her shell a bit, i don't think she was necessarily blaming her, rather that they both needed common ground etc. Overall, i think Ester says the right things and is really trying to help them reconnect. I would be surprised if they are still together though, a lot of work is needed, it really seems like they both need to mature instead of falling into self-fulfilling prophecies of cycling pain and hurt towards each other because they can't communicate it another way. It's definitely a lesson to be learnt for others too. Also, I'm not sure why he identifies as a Muslim still, when he clearly doesn't want to be or was faking it with his family, he seems to be fine pursuing a persona, that should have been touched upon too IMO.
@Dillards Shopper well put.
@Dillards Shopper how long will it be before the wheels fall off your cart? If he sits on the couch while you work your guts out, then he is a selfish inconsiderate prick. No relationship can survive if there is selfishness in the mix. Good luck.
I heard most of the sessions, I think this is the most "unsatisfying" in the way there is no "Ahja Moment" /Agreement / Meeting each other at a middle point. From an outside perspective it looks like Esther is being harsh on the woman but the woman is actually laughing and maybe that's just what she needed as a first step. Still, one session was def. not enough for them, and yes maybe they should divorce, but a healthy separation implies you tried everything to stay together before , including actually communicating.
I usually appreciate Esther’s way of approaching questions of infidelity but this one left me feel very uncomfortable. His deeply rooted issues are not addressed AT ALL, and this is a huge miss. It might have been discussed in their other sessions but listening to this one is very painful. I don’t know this couple and what that has happened between them, but his responses and the way he expresses himself screams “I’m entitled to do what I want and I have ‘smart’ justifications for it”.
This is the story of a typical Russian Orthodox who believed that she needed to have sex in order to please her Muslim husband and he feels betrayed by the kids and the fact that everything went downhill when she focused on being a mother of 3 young ones instead of focusing on him. He cheated. She cheated pre marriage. He has always been a cheater in every relationship. They are sexually incompatible. I think they need to divorce.
Perel should have interrogated the man more. She left him off the hook.
@Dillards Shopper I agree. I went to couple therapy with my male partner and he was great at coming accross really self aware and considerate to the therapist to the extent that the therapist felt out relationship was actually good but behind closed doors he wasn't like that.
Lilly Of The Valley excellent perspective and I agree.
@@redlady935: Yeah. Some people are just really good at talking to therapists and answering questions. They know exactly how to do so, and what tone to use. Some people thrive in therapy sessions and use it to gaslight their partners. It's really harmful.
@@Lillian584 If you've grown up in Eastern Europe, you'll probably accepting that all men will stray when their female partners become "less mother-like". NO. That's not an excuse. This is something that people misunderstand about marriage. You make a CONSCIOUS decision EVERY morning to become the best partner you can be. It's not whether your partner makes you feel good that day or not. It's YOUR responsibility to man-up or woman-up to do the best for your partner, including giving constructive criticism. You don't stray from your wife just because she doesn't give you "those butterfly feelz" anymore. It's your responsibility as a man to lead and make sure your wife feels secure and loved. It's the woman's job to respect her husband's efforts, be his helper & encourager, and "submit" to him WILLINGLY (the key word here is willingly. The power still lies with the woman). In this situation, she tries to be romantic with him and he still says no. She's bringing up their children and his behavior says, "that's none of my business". So he's already made the decision to NOT be the best partner he can be for her every day.
I feel the therapist was victim blaming. Like, what did you do to make him cheat. He did wrong. He did the same thing before his marriage. This is his issue, not hers. She deserves better.
The man felt abandoned because he had his own demons , his own darkness within him that he projected onto her, as if it was her responsibility to cure him. He didn’t take responsibility, for his accountability. Listen carefully to what he says… he felt it is hard to talk… he is trying to project his weakness and inability as her lack of understanding and listening 🤣🤣🤣 Again, there comes the bag of demons, he talks about how his parents’ experience gave him his belief system.
Is there a follow-up on this episode? Just curious to see how it went from here in regards to this couple.
I'm also super curious about what happened in the 2nd year of their journey.
My last relationship was like this..but I tried. She had an excuse, she has cancer. But we were able to have magic moments anyway. But her phsycotic son who she refused to set boundaries with, destroyed us. He became an unbearable third party which she almost seem to take delight in. She would never admit it but it made her feel good that he cared in this un natural way. Me, it made me want to vomit and flee, which I eventually did. Much better relationship now.
respect 👌👍👍
5 min for him requires excitement
How do you regain trust?
Impossible with someone who is not sincere.
You want to hear or do you want to be right? 🙌🏽
Indeed it is not that they have sex with someone else, it is the respect and trust that they destroyed. Why isn't it a one-time thing and it's been a little over a year already!! What if she does the same????
People who lie and cheat want to be treated fairly huh that’s funny ! Perhaps that is why everyone is so darn guarded because it’s a free for all because people want to do whatever they want without consequences!!!! Doesn’t work that way I owe no one trust when you decide to cross that line there is someone else out there who shares my passion and values!!! I need not settle for less!!! No one does!!!
This man is so childish. He keeps saying he didn't get enough attention and this is his justification. But she didn't either. The difference was that she cared enough not to go get this attention from someone else, and he didnt
I think she is neing mpre harsh on the woman. I think Esther has to address that with her clients.
❤🔥🌴
I really don't like the advice Esther is giving. I really feel she's blaming the woman for being cheated on. She needs to hold this man to account for his poor choices. She needs to tell the woman she deserves better than being treated like shit. Toxic advice.
Hard to say I disagree completely but she does at least mention her intentionality around the 25 min mark.
I have to say, this episode was deeply uncomfortable for me to listen to. I have so little hope for the future of this couple, and I don't feel like Esther's therapy session really helped them at all.
You can stitch the leg back on, but you will always have a limp . Like the female impersonator's theme song ' There is always something there to remind me '
that guy is horrible
Good thing you're not a therapist since you have to leave your judgental views at the door.
Everyone has their story. Who are we too judge
@@likearollingstone007 let's see, he has his orgasm, there was no indication he ever cared enough for her to have one too. Certainly not horrible for him
@@likearollingstone007 no, a therapist should judge actually but they wouldn't put it together in that manner. it's good for terrible men to have their characters pulled apart. doesn't happen enough in this society.
@@bettymurphy6865 we are people who have eyes and ears and have to deal with obnoxious men on the daily - so we are able to judge.
I have read this and very interesting. In Japan cheating if just for sex is pretty normal. If there becomes an emotional attachment then it is not acceptable to the other partner.
So can a woman do the same
Well... how can someone have intimacy with somebody who cheated and not picture that cheating act with the other woman when he touches you, kisses you, or whispers in your ear? I couldn't either, sorry, cheating is the end, no chance, and it's not about not being humble or giving second chances, it is about trust lost.
Esther is like the biggest enabler of cheaters ... this man cheated before he met her, had always cheated on his previous partners n he believed that getting married would fix it... Esther should have explored why he cheated on them.... he needs to explore WHY HE CHEATS... this poor woman is being grilled when it's not even about her! eish
I listened because I was interested in the counselling .... so disappointing...
Did anybody notice that she cheated on him first? How come that wasn’t addressed?
Companionships really stay home with kids all day and have no adult conversation. And he's looking for attention really.
It breaks a woman. And the man is portrayed as the victim. How selfish
The husband cheated but it's the wife's fault? Sounds fishy...
I know. This made absolutely no sense. Imagine if it were the wife who cheated and the therapist would coddle her this much.
This comment section would be filled with men up in arms about it 100%.
You're only witnessing the first step of a long process, don't be so quick to judge.
They first need to learn to communicate. Then they can understand each other. By understanding, empathy will come. Then, finally, it will be time: the apology can be made with sincerity, and it can be accepted with sincerity.
But we're only witnessing the first step here.
And in this first step, he isn't good, but she isn't either. In the beginning, she wants to hear nothing. She gradually opens up.
@@MyOrangeString do not justify wrong doings
This bloke can't see the forest for the trees. The embers of this fire are so wet from him pissing on them, that it will not and can not be rekindled, not even in fairyland. There will always be doubt and mistrust in her mind. Like the canary asleep in the cage with the cat asleep on the floor, she will need to sleep with one eye open in fear that the purple headed python does not strike.
it is just beyond me how he is expected to love her again, love her back, when he already found love some where else. a love based on remorse, a feeling of guilt, a pay back, love her back because its the right thing to do at this moment!!!!. and she is supposed to muscle up to keep him arround,. this is to much work, love is not eternel !!!!!
Sweetie, you are a Russian and you agreed to go with the Muslim guy!!! The guy continues to blame the woman, project his insecurities and demons onto her, especially in the insisting on rubbing his story on to her. And Esther, you are not this woman… exactly why you can’t figure out the issue… “that’s what it became” Poor Esther, she had to further this lady. Darn, the guy continues to use his barbaric words, and he continued to add insult by continuing to put a reason to justify his actions… sweetie, the justification is the abuse, you, Esther, don’t have the reality to understand. Only someone who is standing at the other end of receiving a revolver to her head, knows what that experience of betrayal is. Of course the guy would justify why he is holding the revolver. Of course, now he is JUST trying to tell..
It's really upsetting tht the woman is being bashed through words ,by the husband for the complicated idea of obligatory sex ,which she is so unaware of.
I donot understand tht this is life and original marriage, so why seeking everything so perfect by men or women?I.e
Perfect house
Perfect sexy spouse
A perfect girl friend/boyfriend type spouse
Super dooper mental compatibility
A compassionate bond between the two , which is followed by a lending ear even when u are dying bcs of house chores or office load?
Isn't it bazzare?
indeed.... it's exhausting... I feel for her...
Leave this man . How does he have the audacity to say sex wasn't good after he cheated . He should not kissing her feet.
The conclusion of the matter
(Everything having been heard) 13:00
This was all around unfortunatly not my cup of tea at all. I don't like how the therapist approached their situation. I don't see what their cultural background has to do with him cheating.
He's a smooth operator and it's so rediculous how this world famous therapist did not catch the obvious here.
Stop 🛑 👀🤚🏻
“I’ve had better” - 👉🏻 this title is misleading
I think the title aims for a false reflection of the conversation... i think it tries to paint a picture of symmetrical distribution of responsibility between the two of them, which is not the case.
Yes it’s true she has poor communication skills and let’s not forget it’s even truer that - he was raised poorly and his questionable socialization shows. This man is still not able to be a real man and still missing values of integrity. Although being a husband and a father of 3 angels if that did not make him a caring human being, I don’t know what will. Some people are just narcissistic.
He said “I’ve led a double life” at my parents. Why don’t you choose that as a title ? This would have been much more reflective.
Audible REFUND!!
LMAO all the commenters being eaten alive by Romanticism
38:15
He cheated in all relationship prior.
Once a cheater - ALWAYS a cheater .
Bye bye
His laugh is that of insincerity
& cards off the Table
When he says what he needs 1st
That is a pathetic beginning. She is still home managing His home... While He played for a over a year.... stifling
9:40 💝 Esther
19:00 he just wanted to PLAY
27 other women don't Likey
A Muslim...Russian orthodox...nitro gylserin...boom!