Hey Gene, I know this is an older video but I finally took the plunge into MiniDSP and your plethora of knowledge in terms of proper measurement and EQ usage has allowed me to really dial in my subs. You’ve got no idea how much you’ve helped me man!
Who the heck disliked this video? If you chose this video based on the description, it delivers. Some people are never happy I guess. Thanks for the video Gene!
I´m probably wrong but I guess there are people that have only one joy in live which is to crawl thrue youtube in every sparesecond and disliking videos
I added a 3rd sub to my home theater and it blew my mind what a huge difference this made for my listening area. The freqeuncy response without any smoothing is nearly perfectly flat (all around +/- 3db/5db) all the way to to 120hz (xover point). This video helped me so so so much! Incase you're wonder I'm using 3 SVS SB-4000's and I have zero complaints with their performance. It's actually SCARY sometimes...
Yes. Most important piece of enlightening information heard here is "good easurements at the critical crossover point between speakers and subwoofers!" This is rarely discussed, yet absolutely important(besides flat response) Good job Gene
I'm so glad Vizio did it so well that zero calibration or even dumb measurements are needed and I don't need to waste money buying a microphone. They are perfect and down firing. Yeah can put them anywhere. I wish a video could be made why sound bars are so much better.
@scottivlow9962 be thankful you don't know what you're missing and your content trading convenience for sound quality. You've got some quality White Castle grade meat with the Vizio Soundbar.
@Audioholics Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I just want to hear bass off the floor I don't need it pointing directly at me. I can feel it where I want it in the center of the room. I have 2 different sizes of Vizio subs but they sound identical. With the 5.1.2 they made the sub the largest over the 5.1 So many great advantages to having down firing subs. I spent $100 on 2 different sets of loud speakers. I don't have any conventional sound bar set other than I have 2 of them. I'm spending more now on isolation accessories. This is where my money is going this month. I'm also upgrading to a new 55"TV next week. Have a great Thanksgiving week.
Great tutorial. It really helpful to see how the test parameters affect the display. It is also heartening to see the back wall opening to the kitchen; one of my side walls opens into the kitchen likewise. The advise to measure only around the central listening position, where to aim the mic, how to interpret hills vs. valleys and what EQ can, and can’t do for you. In 2023 I’ve ordered the OmniMic V2 to help me tune my room, and finally, finally, integrate my subwoofers into my room. You’ve given me hope after 10 years of frustration with home theater setup (I had about given up).
While playing around with REW what I found out first is checking whether dual subs are in phase each other by listening around the room and whether response curve is satisfactory enough between 20-80hz. Once that's done I missed the point Gene try to come across from 10:15, is that check if dual subs are in phase with main speakers at the crossover region around 80-120hz. I had a dip around 80-100hz and mistakenly boosted DB, so instead what I did was changing both subs from 0 to 180. It did the trick while also maintaining similar response from 20-80hz.
Hi Gene, I’m running 2 SVS SB1600 ultra’s and I’m running a 5.2.4 set up. I’ve run REW a few times with good results, but I’ve never adjusted the phase. I’ve used the the EQ on the subs to adjust out peaks and nulls. You had mentioned not to worry about the nulls as much as the peaks because you wouldn’t notice them as much. I was doing that all wrong. I was boosting the nulls. Now I going to redo REW and try adjusting the phase and see how that affects the curve. Side note I want to add just by moving my subs 6 to 12 inches made a huge difference on my REW curves. Thanks for putting these videos out. I don’t think I would have attempted REW without them.
Gene, how does MiniDsp affect what's been layed out in this video? Can you perhaps do another video showing us how to use REW and MiniDsp to EQ, align and bass manage multiple subs? Really appreciate your channel and all the helpful tips
Gene on the phase adjustments do you play one sub at at time to get the best phase setting for each or play both together and keep adjusting until they collectively have the best phase setting and frequency curve?
@@Stevo19801 I typically vary the phase one sub at a time though I had a hunch that the DSP delay of both subs needed the same adjustment so in my case, 90deg for both subs worked best.
Audioholics when I have done this in the past I have only one sub playing use the phase to get the best curve then turn that sub off and do the same with the second. The concept being if both are independently set to the best then can be the combine response when both are turned on should also be. Also as I have a front centre and back center sub the best setting was to have them play out of phase from each other, That sound right to you gene? Also when you going to get the Atmos setup walkthrough up, your response to me on a video made me go from 7.2 to 5.2.2, I have found lowering the surrounds from 2’ above ear level to 1’ above ear level helps separate bed from ceiling channels for a better blend, interested in your experiences
@@Stevo19801 You should have ALL your subs playing the same mono mix + LFE signal if you want to take full advantage of what multi-sub offers. I wouldn't run subs for the center or surround channels. Bass manage ALL your channels and have one sub/lfe channel.
@@Audioholics Hi Gene. Great vid as it's exactly what I want to do over the next few weeks, but there's only one thing that's confusing me. You mention to run the receiver in stereo mode, but wouldn't that stop the LFE channels from outputting a signal? If I can get the answer to this, I'll be ready to start measuring. Cheers
OMG YES! Cant watch the vid yet but saw the title and Im so stoked! This is perfect timing, just while I was tinkering with my dual r115sw’s and minidsp again! 😃 I still come back to many old vids, so much truth and knowledge in them, reckoning this one will make a fine addition!!
The most important thing about all this work you're doing is understanding the difference in sound. I think it's a killer-app feature. Receiver manufactures need to program in a way to toggle all settings. I'd love to hear how my changes make a difference on the default (no calibration) vs Dirac and Audyssey. I know you can switch between presets, but I think there are better ways like "no delay", "no SPL", etc. I wanna know where the issues are and what I'm fixing.
I am wondering if there is a slightly better microphone for REW that is cleaner below 20 hz ? Is it even necessary to worry about it if we can't hear that low anyway.
Hey Gene thanks for this, increasing the LPF for LFE from 80Hz to 120Hz made a huge difference in sound for my room. Now thinking about trying the calibration for my two subs.
Gene, I have been getting into this lately. I have the UMIK-1 and a mini-DSP 2x4 HD. I had two big peaks and was able to get my line much flatter with delay and REW EQ. But when I ran some demos I really didn't like it. It was bloated and too much all the time. Even though REW is showing me what is wrong, it sounds way better if I leave it there. I am sure fixing these things is great if you really know what you are doing, but for right now Audyysey can do a better job than I can. I say if you are happy with your sound then don't even go down this rabbit hole. If you have someone who can help you then yes maybe...If you hate your bass then yes definitely. I unhooked the miniDSP and just ran back into my 2 sub outs on my 7705...ran Audyssey ( I have been using Audyssey for 15 years and I only do 3. I have done the 8 and can't say it actually sounds better) and I enjoy it much more. I will keep the DSP just in case I ever run into someone who can help but for now, Audyssey is better at it than I am.
Hi Gene, first of all, I would like to thank you for your great videos. I’ve been wondering!! We do our very best with speaker placement and DSP to achieve a nice smooth frequency response with the microphone at listening positioned. But when we do further measurements either side of the hot seat things don’t look so good. Most likely we see troughs and peaks here or there. I was wondering whether these troughs and peaks actually happen in real life, such as a concert hall environment if we were to move from seat to seat, then surely the tonal characteristics of a grand piano for example would change somewhat. I should imagine that our ears adjust accordingly and we accept everything is fine. The question is, are we being too fussy trying to achieve a flat response across our seating area? I would be very interested to hear yours anyone else’s views on this. Thank you, Rodney UK. PS. It could be that any tonal (frequency response) changes in a concert hall are much more acceptable then they would be in a small listening room at home?
To confirm, you'll have a follow-up video using the MultEq app to EQ the subs, correct? The app or something like the miniDSP are used for EQ, and REW is only for doing the measurements, correct?
It's a bit of an unorthodox approach to setting up multiple subs but the results look good. Better to increase the AVR's small freq crossovers well above 80hz to eliminate any influence. REW says to avoid adding phase/delay to subs individually. Only need to add delay or invert one sub, the closest. And the sub crawl isn't effective across a sub's spectrum and multiple seats. In any event, it's easier to use a single sub output from the AVR, of course gain match both subs, add phase/delay or invert the closest sub to optimize nulls/peaks across the two sub outputs. Restore the AVR's proper crossovers etc. Then use the AVR's configuring function (Audyssey or similar) to match subs (calculates distance/SPL) to the rest of the speaker configuration aside from subs.
Thanks for the great video Jean. Big fan of audioholics and the information you guys put out which is very helpful. I followed your other video with the MiniDSP in the bigger Room where you have the 5 subs, and that was awesome work as well. My own setup is a 7.3.4 atmos setup in a dedicated theater room. The bass is tweaked using the MiniDsp 2x4, REW and a program called called MSO which is awesome, FREE and works similar to the SFM software from Harmon. I truly believe that the MSO program could help you achieve the same tight consistency seat to seat with half the time spent. You may want to check it out.
Also using 4 subs (positioned according to Dr. Geddes), MiniDSP, REW and MSO software. Achieved remarkable results with it. MSO and MiniDSP can even bring improvements when you have just 2 subs (started with 2, then upgraded to 4).
Thank you for a great demonstration on the use of RAW software. What is your take on Dirac live as an alternative? I like the RAW approach because I believe you can learn more of a complicated process but there is a steep learning curve. I also like the Dirac live software because it suppose to calculate the needed adjustments within a short period of time. Please let us know what you think of them both. I am looking at purchasing a MiniDSP and not sure if I should get the Dirac Live built in version or go with the RAW solution. Thanks.
I am curious, if you set a constant tone at your suck pit frequency and go round your room feeling if anything is vibrating? That could be sucking the bass out no?
Sigh....ok the title says "how to calibrate multiple subs using rew". Maybe it's me as I've watched this video multiple times and you have only discussed how to use "rew" software to determine the frequency readings on a particular speaker or sub. I must have missed the part on how to use the readings you get from "rew" to implement changes to the avr or amp. There is no info being given on how or what to do with the info rew gives you to make changes to the "Eq" in an avr or amp. I totally respect the fact that your giving your valuable time to us free of charge and I hope I dont come across as rude but I have to tell you this is so frustrating as a "nube". If you could produce a video on how to actually "calibrate multiple subs" and not just how to read "rew" that would be awesome. The info I'm seeking is let's say my subs are falling short in certain frequency curves ,how do I take that info given by "rew" and implement changes to the settings in my avr or amp? If there is a video out there that does this I havnt been able to find it! Lol! I'm will pay money for this info!..lol! Fortunately the gentleman on your video that came after this one on how to use "rew" answered one of my questions. I think his name is Mathew Poe and he straightened me out to understand I need a "dsp" between my avr and subs. But alas how do i make changes on the dsp with the info i get from "rew". My next step is to just hire a "guy" to come calibrate my system as I'm totally cool with just throwing huge amounts of money at my particular problem!...lol! But seriously it cant be that difficult. I think my problem is just finding the right info,as for some reason it either assumed by gentleman like yourself that this is common knowledge or I'm just a complete and total moron!..lol! I would really like to think it's just that alot of "assuming" is going on and not the latter!...lol! Again thank you for your time!
I understand your frustration. You are welcome to join our Patreon channel to make specific video requests or sign on to one of our consolation packages where I can help you one on one.
Excellent video Gene! I am using an Anthem MRX-720, taking single sub output into miniDSP 2x4, then feeding two SVS PB2000 subs. It is my understanding the two Anthem sub outs are paralleled, hence why I use miniDSP for individual level and delay. Rather than use REW, I use ARCs Quick Measure to set delay and level variation between the subs. Question: Is there any technical difference between using the miniDSP delay vs the SVS phase control? If they are the same thing, I could remove miniDSP from chain to simplify things... Although I do find it nice to be able to tweak the sub settings from laptop rather than going back-and-forth behind the subs. Hope I'm approaching this the right way? Your thoughts much appreciated! 👍
I have a Yamaha Aventage RX-A2060 and it gives three options for dual subwoofers: Monaural x 2, front and rear, left and right. I have read many pros and cons regarding running stereo subs (left and right option). It does seem that many experts recommend going Monaural x 2. What is your recommendation?
Mono for Home Theatre as this is a Low Frequency Effect (LFE) for ALL channels not just the left and right channels... I've trialled speakers at large setting (L,C,R,RL,RR) with subs attached (yes 5 subs! 6 actually but they are only 12" with passive radiators's in cabs) but it still doesn't compare to the LFE and speakers crossed over (XO) around the 60-80hz region and proper bass management EQ in place...
So I have done some sewwps in my home recording room. Totally amazed with the results. I lost a little bass volume however the frequencies felt better to me. Would you say I could turn the sub speaker up a little to comensate?
Hello Gene, I purchased the Dayton mic and installed REW. I watched your video a couple of times and the additional one Audioholics had on REW room simulation. Something very important is left unclear. I have an older Onkyo PrePro with Audyssey MultiEQ XT. I have two McIntosh HT-2 subs, placed diagonally in the room to avoid co-location and still maintain a living room. In your video you mention Audyssey and how you need to switch to manual EQ for ideal subwoofer management of some peaks and drop offs in the response curve. However, it appears that ALL prepros do not allow you to separately set manual sub EQ’s in conjunction with Audyssey doing the other speakers. If you have passive subs, without phase control, are you just plain stuck??
Really helpful info and nice video quality. Im left wondering, is there a workaround if your subs dont support variable phase adjustment? Also if someone already has a usb mic like a yeti or samson, will they be effective?
Hello Gene. I'm glad I found your channel, though I'm at least three years late. Can this alignment process be adapted to the vehicle environment to investigate sub-bass response in and out of the vehicle? In cabin, windows shut In cabin, windows fully open Out cabin, windows open Out cabin doors open
If you're only worried about 1 listening position, use that same spot. Ear level. You could do like 3 sweeps and average them if you wanted to get really particular about it.
Are you playing your receiver at reference level when running your sweep? And should I be leveling to 75hz on my mini DSP? Or am I leveling subwoofers for the maximum response ? I’m lost lol
Damn looking at the the level trim your speakers are set at that room must be very symmetrical where you placed the speakers because basically the level trims are identical for each set of speaker
It's great to see measurements being used, but I was shocked to see you running sweeps that took only about 3 seconds! That sweep doesn't sit at 10Hz long enough for even one proper cycle to complete, let alone the room resonance to be stimulated. I would use at least a 20 second sweep. There's a lot to consider here. Firstly, if the subwoofers are reflex designs, then they will produce almost no output on the first cycle and will take three or four cycles to build up to anything like their final level at any frequency. Then comes the room, and you need each frequency to sit long enough for the waves to bounce back and forth between walls and settle into the final pattern of room modes. This is going to take at least 100mS and maybe up to 1 second. Then that mode needs to die down enough not to interfere with the next frequency. Always test at spot frequencies to see what is really happening. It's good that you are not using smoothing (so often used to cheat) but a fast sweep is as bad if not worse. I got a shock when testing a simple high-pass second order filter on fast sweeps years ago. I knew it had a very flat response, but on the sweep it had a huge bump in the response of about 6dB. I then realised that the time-smearing was resulting in the early frequencies adding to what followed in a complicated way. A linear phase filter would not do this (you can talk in terms of group delay) but your speakers and room come nowhere near being linear phase! I have an experimental semi-anechoic studio set up for surround sound with four 18 inch woofers in the front wall (each at 1/4 or 3/4 width as recommended). Behind the wall is the room I keep my ride-on mower in - big enough to constitute an 'infinite baffle! The results are impressive, largely because this gives me truly 'aperiodic' speakers, and the initial 'thump' goes out at full amplitude - something most speakers cannot achieve. Close-up the response is flat to -3dB at 12Hz. The effect of room modes, however, makes it not as good as I hoped for, apparent on uneven bass guitar notes especially. The 7 inches of glass fibre in acoustic panels around the walls is very effective down to a couple of hundred hertz, and imaging is stunning, but of course it is of very little help below 100Hz. So an extreme attempt at the perfect room, as a research project, and still not there! Stimulated by videos like this I am going to try again to kill those modes. It's important to realise that using multiple speakers might seem to even out the response, but it only really means you are setting up conflicting resonances I think, and so steady state tests do not tell the whole story. I'm trying to get a true 'aperiodic' setup in a 25 by 17 ft room, and that's not currently possible, though I have ideas . . . .
Gene, are your fronts the RBH speakers with the granite cabinets? Shane demoed those for me and they have an incredibly wide sound stage, or rather, wide sweet spot.
I have avr at 0db, signal from rew at -30 db and my 20-500 sweep starts at 90db then falls linearly down to 70db at 100hz, then +/- around 70db to 500hz. Do I have this setup correct to be getting these readings?
Wow. Very nice. So, I humbly ask, how do I set up studio monitors to accurately produce what will be ultimately reproduced after all mixing and engineering is done? Whew....
Gene, I have a Pioneer SC95 AVR, I have dual SVS PB1000pros, I want to calibrate/tune my subs to their most efficient level by investing in the MINIdsp 2x4HD device and UMC1 mic. After calibrating with the minidsp, does that unit continue to be connected to my Pioneer receiver? Do I continue to use my internal room correction software in the Pioneer?
Dear sir. Have you made a video describing how to integrate a single sub into a stereo system? I'm thinking of the correct phase, etc. I use the headphone output from my laptop, which goes directly into my preamp via. rca plugs. I have an umik and REW. Kr Frank
Hello Gene, thank you for this video. I have a query. Are you still suggesting Dayton UMM-6 Microphone or you have any other model which you consider better than dayton? Please reply.
Ok something that never gets explained is how to hook up "rew" to a reciever ?!...example ... when using "rew" do you simply hook up a laptop to your reciever (how?) Or do you use a separate "dsp" and use that connected between your sub out from reciever and the sub? In other words how exactly do you use the corrections you make with "rew" into a avr reciever or amp? There are countless videos on how to use rew but nothing I can find on how to implement rew settings into a avr or amp! Thanks for any help! .
I thought I showed in this video or in our latest REW video, we use HDMI connection between the laptop and the AV receiver. You can also use 3.5mm analog audio if you want too. I prefer HDMI so you can see the screen on your display.
@@Audioholics ok...so by using a hdmi cable that will enable me to see the "rew" program but will simply connecting a laptop running "rew" change the internal "EQ" of my avr thru a hdmi cable? I was actually told by someone else "rew" cant change the internal EQ settings and I would need to run a separate dsp between my avr and subs. But I just dont trust the person who told me this. I do however trust you as you obviously know your stuff. Please dont beat me up as you can clearly tell I'm a "nubie" when it comes to "rew". Lol!
whenever I do this or level match my speakers with decibel reader, should my sub be at "50%" or in the middle? I tried setting all my channels at 75db(A) and sub at 75db(C) I just want to make sure that everything is set up correctly before using REW (also have UMIK)
Good video Gene I have the MINIDSP microphone its good for me to see this if I did mine correctly .I am in a condo living room so different from a house .I have two subs .IN my setup. I saved my charts from the mic .I can always go back and see .
Great video. It is worth having two subs, with a cheap receiver that has only parallel sub output? How would I even know, if I have parallel or not output?
Dirac Live only has the option for 1 sub during calibration. Would you recommend using REW to calibrate multiple subs? And is a miniDSP needed for sub calibration with REW?
Always do positioning first with your subwoofer as good as you can. Most recommended after that is to do your own EQ/phase/delay, and last finish off with Audyssey.
I have same AVR - Marantz SR8012 and using 2 SVS Sb3000 subs - after using MultiEQ app - I get this one Null around 80-90 hZ - what would be the best way to fix or improve that to make it as flat as possible and I don't have much option to move my Subs? Any possibility of me showing you the curves that I got?
What volume do you have the receiver on? I usually do testing at 15 on my Marantz 1603. Also, do you want to get the level as high as it goes but doesnt clip? I usually bring up the level in the -15 to -20 range for the sub and my speakers seem to be down closer to 0 to -5 with the same volume in my receiver. Just trying to figure out this correctly as many people dont go over that. My in usually gets to 0.2 -1. Is that normal to be testing the mic to that kind of levels? You're are way different as they are very low compared to mine(volumes)
Hey man please little help i have a monolith 15 sub and i cant find the best spot to my room i try them all but i have a big null in 45hz and some other frequencys i run audyssey i dont have microphone umik1 for example or mini dsp you believe if i took microphone umik 1 and mini dsp to can make some difference to the curve in few months im gonna buy a second one sub but for now what can i do also you have facebook to explain me better there??? Thank you and im waiting your help🙏🙏🙏🙏
Hey Gene how's it going ? This is my first time posting on your channel. And this video gave me the idea ask you a question on powered subs for a 2.1 music only system. I'm putting together my very first bookshelf speaker system, due to room limited real estate. My question is in your opinion which powered sub would be better for for a variety of music. I want to stay in the $500-$1000 price range. Thank you in advance.
Awesome information!! Thanks! One question though - is it preferable to adjust phase directly in the sub or changing the distance in the receiver menu? Thanks in advance
actually the best thing is to physically move the subs around in the room, preferably SW should be directly at the wall, so you are avoiding destructive summation. The dips and boosts you can see in the freq domain are actually standing waves caused by the room geometry. These waves you can not EQ, since this is a room geometry problem. If possible, I would suggest to put some absorbers in the corners. Preferably Bass Traps, but if you dont want to spend the money, you could also fill the corners with porouse absorbers.
Is there a newer video than this? You are not properly calibrating. What is the phase angle of your mains at low pass to subs? What is the relative phase of each sub to this angle? How did you determine delay (advance) to each sub?
If the subs and mains integrate without cancellation, the phase is lined up. Delay was set based on measured response between the mains and subs. More advanced users can use waveletts to determine time alignment but even if the subs are a couple of cycles off from the mains, this usually will NOT be audible. Frequency response is the ultimate guide for getting good bass in rooms.
Your lighting is a but lacking. The audio is noticeably better. You might invest ~$100 into a simple light kit. Screen capture software makes this type of video look better too. That way the bad color balance is less noticeable. Thanks for the great content.
Hey Gene, I know this is an older video but I finally took the plunge into MiniDSP and your plethora of knowledge in terms of proper measurement and EQ usage has allowed me to really dial in my subs. You’ve got no idea how much you’ve helped me man!
3 years later and this video is still one of the best ones to help with rew
Who the heck disliked this video? If you chose this video based on the description, it delivers. Some people are never happy I guess. Thanks for the video Gene!
I´m probably wrong but I guess there are people that have only one joy in live which is to crawl thrue youtube in every sparesecond and disliking videos
I added a 3rd sub to my home theater and it blew my mind what a huge difference this made for my listening area. The freqeuncy response without any smoothing is nearly perfectly flat (all around +/- 3db/5db) all the way to to 120hz (xover point). This video helped me so so so much! Incase you're wonder I'm using 3 SVS SB-4000's and I have zero complaints with their performance. It's actually SCARY sometimes...
Yes. Most important piece of enlightening information heard here is "good easurements at the critical crossover point between speakers and subwoofers!"
This is rarely discussed, yet absolutely important(besides flat response)
Good job Gene
I'm so glad Vizio did it so well that zero calibration or even dumb measurements are needed and I don't need to waste money buying a microphone. They are perfect and down firing. Yeah can put them anywhere. I wish a video could be made why sound bars are so much better.
@scottivlow9962 be thankful you don't know what you're missing and your content trading convenience for sound quality. You've got some quality White Castle grade meat with the Vizio Soundbar.
@Audioholics Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I just want to hear bass off the floor I don't need it pointing directly at me. I can feel it where I want it in the center of the room. I have 2 different sizes of Vizio subs but they sound identical. With the 5.1.2 they made the sub the largest over the 5.1
So many great advantages to having down firing subs.
I spent $100 on 2 different sets of loud speakers. I don't have any conventional sound bar set other than I have 2 of them.
I'm spending more now on isolation accessories. This is where my money is going this month. I'm also upgrading to a new 55"TV next week.
Have a great Thanksgiving week.
Great tutorial. It really helpful to see how the test parameters affect the display. It is also heartening to see the back wall opening to the kitchen; one of my side walls opens into the kitchen likewise. The advise to measure only around the central listening position, where to aim the mic, how to interpret hills vs. valleys and what EQ can, and can’t do for you. In 2023 I’ve ordered the OmniMic V2 to help me tune my room, and finally, finally, integrate my subwoofers into my room. You’ve given me hope after 10 years of frustration with home theater setup (I had about given up).
Love seeing this type of content.
It is great to see but is a bit complex for me :( Still want to see it though, might learn a something.
While playing around with REW what I found out first is checking whether dual subs are in phase each other by listening around the room and whether response curve is satisfactory enough between 20-80hz. Once that's done I missed the point Gene try to come across from 10:15, is that check if dual subs are in phase with main speakers at the crossover region around 80-120hz. I had a dip around 80-100hz and mistakenly boosted DB, so instead what I did was changing both subs from 0 to 180. It did the trick while also maintaining similar response from 20-80hz.
The thing I like about Audioholics is these guys have forgotten more than I ever knew about audio.
Hi Gene, I’m running 2 SVS SB1600 ultra’s and I’m running a 5.2.4 set up.
I’ve run REW a few times with good results, but I’ve never adjusted the phase. I’ve used the the EQ on the subs to adjust out peaks and nulls. You had mentioned not to worry about the nulls as much as the peaks because you wouldn’t notice them as much. I was doing that all wrong. I was boosting the nulls. Now I going to redo REW and try adjusting the phase and see how that affects the curve. Side note I want to add just by moving my subs 6 to 12 inches made a huge difference on my REW curves. Thanks for putting these videos out. I don’t think I would have attempted REW without them.
Gene, how does MiniDsp affect what's been layed out in this video? Can you perhaps do another video showing us how to use REW and MiniDsp to EQ, align and bass manage multiple subs? Really appreciate your channel and all the helpful tips
Can you do a video on how to use REW to set the eq that’s built into a home receiver?
Gene you do it again, amazing content!!
Gene on the phase adjustments do you play one sub at at time to get the best phase setting for each or play both together and keep adjusting until they collectively have the best phase setting and frequency curve?
@@Stevo19801 I typically vary the phase one sub at a time though I had a hunch that the DSP delay of both subs needed the same adjustment so in my case, 90deg for both subs worked best.
Audioholics when I have done this in the past I have only one sub playing use the phase to get the best curve then turn that sub off and do the same with the second. The concept being if both are independently set to the best then can be the combine response when both are turned on should also be. Also as I have a front centre and back center sub the best setting was to have them play out of phase from each other, That sound right to you gene? Also when you going to get the Atmos setup walkthrough up, your response to me on a video made me go from 7.2 to 5.2.2, I have found lowering the surrounds from 2’ above ear level to 1’ above ear level helps separate bed from ceiling channels for a better blend, interested in your experiences
@@Stevo19801 You should have ALL your subs playing the same mono mix + LFE signal if you want to take full advantage of what multi-sub offers. I wouldn't run subs for the center or surround channels. Bass manage ALL your channels and have one sub/lfe channel.
@@Audioholics Hi Gene. Great vid as it's exactly what I want to do over the next few weeks, but there's only one thing that's confusing me. You mention to run the receiver in stereo mode, but wouldn't that stop the LFE channels from outputting a signal? If I can get the answer to this, I'll be ready to start measuring. Cheers
OMG YES! Cant watch the vid yet but saw the title and Im so stoked! This is perfect timing, just while I was tinkering with my dual r115sw’s and minidsp again! 😃
I still come back to many old vids, so much truth and knowledge in them, reckoning this one will make a fine addition!!
Great tips Gene. Thank you very much. All the Best from Poland.
The most important thing about all this work you're doing is understanding the difference in sound. I think it's a killer-app feature.
Receiver manufactures need to program in a way to toggle all settings. I'd love to hear how my changes make a difference on the default (no calibration) vs Dirac and Audyssey.
I know you can switch between presets, but I think there are better ways like "no delay", "no SPL", etc. I wanna know where the issues are and what I'm fixing.
Thank you so much for taking the time to make this video. I've been waiting for you guys to help us out. Thank you so much.
I am wondering if there is a slightly better microphone for REW that is cleaner below 20 hz ? Is it even necessary to worry about it if we can't hear that low anyway.
Hey Gene thanks for this, increasing the LPF for LFE from 80Hz to 120Hz made a huge difference in sound for my room. Now thinking about trying the calibration for my two subs.
dewdorama 80Hz means the speakers crossover not LPF that should always be left at 120hz
Really cool. Thks. The actual adjustment for my mother and law would be at the toilet sit :)
Gene, I have been getting into this lately. I have the UMIK-1 and a mini-DSP 2x4 HD. I had two big peaks and was able to get my line much flatter with delay and REW EQ. But when I ran some demos I really didn't like it. It was bloated and too much all the time. Even though REW is showing me what is wrong, it sounds way better if I leave it there. I am sure fixing these things is great if you really know what you are doing, but for right now Audyysey can do a better job than I can. I say if you are happy with your sound then don't even go down this rabbit hole. If you have someone who can help you then yes maybe...If you hate your bass then yes definitely. I unhooked the miniDSP and just ran back into my 2 sub outs on my 7705...ran Audyssey ( I have been using Audyssey for 15 years and I only do 3. I have done the 8 and can't say it actually sounds better) and I enjoy it much more. I will keep the DSP just in case I ever run into someone who can help but for now, Audyssey is better at it than I am.
So If I enjoy my bass now with Audyssy. I can save $300? 😀
@@TheRafcave absolutely
Hi Gene, first of all, I would like to thank you for your great videos. I’ve been wondering!! We do our very best with speaker placement and DSP to achieve a nice smooth frequency response with the microphone at listening positioned. But when we do further measurements either side of the hot seat things don’t look so good. Most likely we see troughs and peaks here or there. I was wondering whether these troughs and peaks actually happen in real life, such as a concert hall environment if we were to move from seat to seat, then surely the tonal characteristics of a grand piano for example would change somewhat. I should imagine that our ears adjust accordingly and we accept everything is fine. The question is, are we being too fussy trying to achieve a flat response across our seating area? I would be very interested to hear yours anyone else’s views on this. Thank you, Rodney UK. PS. It could be that any tonal (frequency response) changes in a concert hall are much more acceptable then they would be in a small listening room at home?
To confirm, you'll have a follow-up video using the MultEq app to EQ the subs, correct? The app or something like the miniDSP are used for EQ, and REW is only for doing the measurements, correct?
It's a bit of an unorthodox approach to setting up multiple subs but the results look good. Better to increase the AVR's small freq crossovers well above 80hz to eliminate any influence. REW says to avoid adding phase/delay to subs individually. Only need to add delay or invert one sub, the closest. And the sub crawl isn't effective across a sub's spectrum and multiple seats.
In any event, it's easier to use a single sub output from the AVR, of course gain match both subs, add phase/delay or invert the closest sub to optimize nulls/peaks across the two sub outputs. Restore the AVR's proper crossovers etc. Then use the AVR's configuring function (Audyssey or similar) to match subs (calculates distance/SPL) to the rest of the speaker configuration aside from subs.
@kdub1666 This is what I have always wondered. How to use both REW and Dirac...
Great video! Hope to watch the ARC video soon!
Great video -- super helpful!
Hi can you make a video on how to calibrate a home theater system running separate amplifiers on all channels,thanks
Could u do a video of how to measure properly a fulrange speaker with this mic?
Thanks for the great video Jean. Big fan of audioholics and the information you guys put out which is very helpful. I followed your other video with the MiniDSP in the bigger Room where you have the 5 subs, and that was awesome work as well. My own setup is a 7.3.4 atmos setup in a dedicated theater room. The bass is tweaked using the MiniDsp 2x4, REW and a program called called MSO which is awesome, FREE and works similar to the SFM software from Harmon. I truly believe that the MSO program could help you achieve the same tight consistency seat to seat with half the time spent. You may want to check it out.
Also using 4 subs (positioned according to Dr. Geddes), MiniDSP, REW and MSO software. Achieved remarkable results with it. MSO and MiniDSP can even bring improvements when you have just 2 subs (started with 2, then upgraded to 4).
"that's where you put the mother-in-law" ... omfg LMAO ... but so true. 🤣
I've had My REW mic. for maybe 5weeks. I really need to get on with it.
How are you turning off your sub to test one at a time in REW?
Thank you for a great demonstration on the use of RAW software. What is your take on Dirac live as an alternative? I like the RAW approach because I believe you can learn more of a complicated process but there is a steep learning curve. I also like the Dirac live software because it suppose to calculate the needed adjustments within a short period of time. Please let us know what you think of them both. I am looking at purchasing a MiniDSP and not sure if I should get the Dirac Live built in version or go with the RAW solution. Thanks.
Thank you for sharing know how! Wish you all the best, Genius Gene!
I am curious, if you set a constant tone at your suck pit frequency and go round your room feeling if anything is vibrating? That could be sucking the bass out no?
Awesome information Gene!! I'll be watching this video probably 8 times... 😂🤣😂
You're awesome Gene! Thanks.
Sigh....ok the title says "how to calibrate multiple subs using rew". Maybe it's me as I've watched this video multiple times and you have only discussed how to use "rew" software to determine the frequency readings on a particular speaker or sub. I must have missed the part on how to use the readings you get from "rew" to implement changes to the avr or amp. There is no info being given on how or what to do with the info rew gives you to make changes to the "Eq" in an avr or amp. I totally respect the fact that your giving your valuable time to us free of charge and I hope I dont come across as rude but I have to tell you this is so frustrating as a "nube". If you could produce a video on how to actually "calibrate multiple subs" and not just how to read "rew" that would be awesome. The info I'm seeking is let's say my subs are falling short in certain frequency curves ,how do I take that info given by "rew" and implement changes to the settings in my avr or amp? If there is a video out there that does this I havnt been able to find it! Lol! I'm will pay money for this info!..lol! Fortunately the gentleman on your video that came after this one on how to use "rew" answered one of my questions. I think his name is Mathew Poe and he straightened me out to understand I need a "dsp" between my avr and subs. But alas how do i make changes on the dsp with the info i get from "rew". My next step is to just hire a "guy" to come calibrate my system as I'm totally cool with just throwing huge amounts of money at my particular problem!...lol! But seriously it cant be that difficult. I think my problem is just finding the right info,as for some reason it either assumed by gentleman like yourself that this is common knowledge or I'm just a complete and total moron!..lol! I would really like to think it's just that alot of "assuming" is going on and not the latter!...lol! Again thank you for your time!
I understand your frustration. You are welcome to join our Patreon channel to make specific video requests or sign on to one of our consolation packages where I can help you one on one.
Excellent video Gene!
I am using an Anthem MRX-720, taking single sub output into miniDSP 2x4, then feeding two SVS PB2000 subs. It is my understanding the two Anthem sub outs are paralleled, hence why I use miniDSP for individual level and delay. Rather than use REW, I use ARCs Quick Measure to set delay and level variation between the subs.
Question: Is there any technical difference between using the miniDSP delay vs the SVS phase control? If they are the same thing, I could remove miniDSP from chain to simplify things... Although I do find it nice to be able to tweak the sub settings from laptop rather than going back-and-forth behind the subs. Hope I'm approaching this the right way? Your thoughts much appreciated! 👍
I'm in the same situation And configuration ! So how you finaly do ? Anthem + minidsp, or Anthem + control each svs (delay, phase, peq,...) ? Thank's
The microphone I have is the miniDSP UMIK-1USB. I have dual SVS SB-16 Ultras and a DENON AVR-3313ci receiver.
any video about Dirac ? :) pretty please
If I use an audiophile USB cable for the mic will it give better frequency response
Nice video. I'd recommend to use ASIO device drivers.
I have a Yamaha Aventage RX-A2060 and it gives three options for dual subwoofers: Monaural x 2, front and rear, left and right. I have read many pros and cons regarding running stereo subs (left and right option). It does seem that many experts recommend going Monaural x 2. What is your recommendation?
Mono for Home Theatre as this is a Low Frequency Effect (LFE) for ALL channels not just the left and right channels...
I've trialled speakers at large setting (L,C,R,RL,RR) with subs attached (yes 5 subs! 6 actually but they are only 12" with passive radiators's in cabs) but it still doesn't compare to the LFE and speakers crossed over (XO) around the 60-80hz region and proper bass management EQ in place...
So I have done some sewwps in my home recording room. Totally amazed with the results. I lost a little bass volume however the frequencies felt better to me. Would you say I could turn the sub speaker up a little to comensate?
Are you mean to use Audyssey setup first , or not at all?
Hello Gene, I purchased the Dayton mic and installed REW. I watched your video a couple of times and the additional one Audioholics had on REW room simulation. Something very important is left unclear. I have an older Onkyo PrePro with Audyssey MultiEQ XT. I have two McIntosh HT-2 subs, placed diagonally in the room to avoid co-location and still maintain a living room. In your video you mention Audyssey and how you need to switch to manual EQ for ideal subwoofer management of some peaks and drop offs in the response curve. However, it appears that ALL prepros do not allow you to separately set manual sub EQ’s in conjunction with Audyssey doing the other speakers. If you have passive subs, without phase control, are you just plain stuck??
When doing measurements, what does the dBFS mean in this context and what happens when you crank that up?
great vid. Can you do a vid for towers and rew. awesome thanks
Really helpful info and nice video quality. Im left wondering, is there a workaround if your subs dont support variable phase adjustment?
Also if someone already has a usb mic like a yeti or samson, will they be effective?
Separate delays (distance adjustment) for each sub. However, only higher end receivers can do this.
Hello Gene. I'm glad I found your channel, though I'm at least three years late.
Can this alignment process be adapted to the vehicle environment to investigate sub-bass response in and out of the vehicle?
In cabin, windows shut
In cabin, windows fully open
Out cabin, windows open
Out cabin doors open
Hi Gene! Great video with crucial info! Why the -15db sweep level? Thanks
Excellent video. Many thanks for the share. Could you please shed light on time alignment using acoustic timing as reference in REW using a USB Mic?
Great vid i only have one person set up so don’t care anywhere else so how many spots should i do where I listening would 4 spots be enough?
If you're only worried about 1 listening position, use that same spot. Ear level. You could do like 3 sweeps and average them if you wanted to get really particular about it.
How do you set time alignment and phase on a Denon X4400H? Do I run Audyssey first? Then turn it off and use REW? Then run Audyssey again?
Are you playing your receiver at reference level when running your sweep? And should I be leveling to 75hz on my mini DSP? Or am I leveling subwoofers for the maximum response ? I’m lost lol
Damn looking at the the level trim your speakers are set at that room must be very symmetrical where you placed the speakers because basically the level trims are identical for each set of speaker
Yea I try to get good balance positionally first before level matching.
It's great to see measurements being used, but I was shocked to see you running sweeps that took only about 3 seconds! That sweep doesn't sit at 10Hz long enough for even one proper cycle to complete, let alone the room resonance to be stimulated. I would use at least a 20 second sweep. There's a lot to consider here. Firstly, if the subwoofers are reflex designs, then they will produce almost no output on the first cycle and will take three or four cycles to build up to anything like their final level at any frequency. Then comes the room, and you need each frequency to sit long enough for the waves to bounce back and forth between walls and settle into the final pattern of room modes. This is going to take at least 100mS and maybe up to 1 second. Then that mode needs to die down enough not to interfere with the next frequency. Always test at spot frequencies to see what is really happening. It's good that you are not using smoothing (so often used to cheat) but a fast sweep is as bad if not worse.
I got a shock when testing a simple high-pass second order filter on fast sweeps years ago. I knew it had a very flat response, but on the sweep it had a huge bump in the response of about 6dB. I then realised that the time-smearing was resulting in the early frequencies adding to what followed in a complicated way. A linear phase filter would not do this (you can talk in terms of group delay) but your speakers and room come nowhere near being linear phase!
I have an experimental semi-anechoic studio set up for surround sound with four 18 inch woofers in the front wall (each at 1/4 or 3/4 width as recommended). Behind the wall is the room I keep my ride-on mower in - big enough to constitute an 'infinite baffle! The results are impressive, largely because this gives me truly 'aperiodic' speakers, and the initial 'thump' goes out at full amplitude - something most speakers cannot achieve. Close-up the response is flat to -3dB at 12Hz. The effect of room modes, however, makes it not as good as I hoped for, apparent on uneven bass guitar notes especially. The 7 inches of glass fibre in acoustic panels around the walls is very effective down to a couple of hundred hertz, and imaging is stunning, but of course it is of very little help below 100Hz. So an extreme attempt at the perfect room, as a research project, and still not there! Stimulated by videos like this I am going to try again to kill those modes. It's important to realise that using multiple speakers might seem to even out the response, but it only really means you are setting up conflicting resonances I think, and so steady state tests do not tell the whole story. I'm trying to get a true 'aperiodic' setup in a 25 by 17 ft room, and that's not currently possible, though I have ideas . . . .
Gene, are your fronts the RBH speakers with the granite cabinets? Shane demoed those for me and they have an incredibly wide sound stage, or rather, wide sweet spot.
I have avr at 0db, signal from rew at -30 db and my 20-500 sweep starts at 90db then falls linearly down to 70db at 100hz, then +/- around 70db to 500hz. Do I have this setup correct to be getting these readings?
Can you do video with minidsp for subs
Wow. Very nice. So, I humbly ask, how do I set up studio monitors to accurately produce what will be ultimately reproduced after all mixing and engineering is done? Whew....
Is there a problem having subs of different sizes? Say a 10" & 12" or 10" & 14"?
Gene, I have a Pioneer SC95 AVR, I have dual SVS PB1000pros, I want to calibrate/tune my subs to their most efficient level by investing in the MINIdsp 2x4HD device and UMC1 mic.
After calibrating with the minidsp, does that unit continue to be connected to my Pioneer receiver? Do I continue to use my internal room correction software in the Pioneer?
Can you use REW to level match subs instead of using an SPL meter?
Is there a video tutorial on how to for dummies for REW?
Dear sir.
Have you made a video describing how to integrate a single sub into a stereo system? I'm thinking of the correct phase, etc. I use the headphone output from my laptop, which goes directly into my preamp via. rca plugs. I have an umik and REW.
Kr
Frank
have you tried using the ASIO drivers? allows you to measure L, C, R, LS, RS and LFE channels
Hello Gene, thank you for this video. I have a query. Are you still suggesting Dayton UMM-6 Microphone or you have any other model which you consider better than dayton? Please reply.
Ok something that never gets explained is how to hook up "rew" to a reciever ?!...example ... when using "rew" do you simply hook up a laptop to your reciever (how?) Or do you use a separate "dsp" and use that connected between your sub out from reciever and the sub? In other words how exactly do you use the corrections you make with "rew" into a avr reciever or amp? There are countless videos on how to use rew but nothing I can find on how to implement rew settings into a avr or amp! Thanks for any help!
.
I thought I showed in this video or in our latest REW video, we use HDMI connection between the laptop and the AV receiver. You can also use 3.5mm analog audio if you want too. I prefer HDMI so you can see the screen on your display.
@@Audioholics ok...so by using a hdmi cable that will enable me to see the "rew" program but will simply connecting a laptop running "rew" change the internal "EQ" of my avr thru a hdmi cable? I was actually told by someone else "rew" cant change the internal EQ settings and I would need to run a separate dsp between my avr and subs. But I just dont trust the person who told me this. I do however trust you as you obviously know your stuff. Please dont beat me up as you can clearly tell I'm a "nubie" when it comes to "rew". Lol!
If I buy the MiniDSP mic, do I really need the MiniDSP 2X4 too?
Looking forward to the Audyssey video!
whenever I do this or level match my speakers with decibel reader, should my sub be at "50%" or in the middle? I tried setting all my channels at 75db(A) and sub at 75db(C) I just want to make sure that everything is set up correctly before using REW (also have UMIK)
Good video Gene I have the MINIDSP microphone its good for me to see this if I did mine correctly .I am in a condo living room so different from a house .I have two subs .IN my setup. I saved my charts from the mic .I can always go back and see .
Thank you! Recently bought my fourth 15in. and tried to do with Audyssey.
How'd that work out?
Great video. It is worth having two subs, with a cheap receiver that has only parallel sub output? How would I even know, if I have parallel or not output?
If you can't independently adjust level and delay for each sub out, it's a parallel connection.
@@Audioholics Thanks for that. It is even worth having two subs this way?
How do you adjust the delay? I have a marantz
Gene, did you ever make the video regarding the Audyssey App?
Great video by the way!
Dirac Live only has the option for 1 sub during calibration. Would you recommend using REW to calibrate multiple subs? And is a miniDSP needed for sub calibration with REW?
Do you still use the minidsp in your main system?
Thanks for this !
Is REW just for running base? Btw how ta feeling?
Gene just to confirm you recommend not using auddesy on the receiver at all? Or do that first and then use rew?
Always do positioning first with your subwoofer as good as you can.
Most recommended after that is to do your own EQ/phase/delay, and last finish off with Audyssey.
What mic would you recommend now, 4 years later?
@@hellonwheelsuknow6556 umik-1 nothing fancy
Please help me in how to adjust the frequency gain information in to audyssey multi EQ.
Thanks, what about Dirac? would you recommend only measuring 3 feet max distance apart?
Wow.Wonderfull.Is it possible to connect a graf/equalizer on a av receiver?Is it going to boost and improve the sound quality?
you can buy both a microhpone and a minidsp 2x4 from minidsp.com. Put the minidsp between receiver subwoofer output, and your subwoofer(s). Thats it
Great video, thanks!
Fantastic advice:)
I have same AVR - Marantz SR8012 and using 2 SVS Sb3000 subs - after using MultiEQ app - I get this one Null around 80-90 hZ - what would be the best way to fix or improve that to make it as flat as possible and I don't have much option to move my Subs? Any possibility of me showing you the curves that I got?
What volume do you have the receiver on? I usually do testing at 15 on my Marantz 1603. Also, do you want to get the level as high as it goes but doesnt clip? I usually bring up the level in the -15 to -20 range for the sub and my speakers seem to be down closer to 0 to -5 with the same volume in my receiver. Just trying to figure out this correctly as many people dont go over that. My in usually gets to 0.2 -1. Is that normal to be testing the mic to that kind of levels? You're are way different as they are very low compared to mine(volumes)
This is great. Thanks.
Hey man please little help i have a monolith 15 sub and i cant find the best spot to my room i try them all but i have a big null in 45hz and some other frequencys i run audyssey i dont have microphone umik1 for example or mini dsp you believe if i took microphone umik 1 and mini dsp to can make some difference to the curve in few months im gonna buy a second one sub but for now what can i do also you have facebook to explain me better there??? Thank you and im waiting your help🙏🙏🙏🙏
Hey Gene how's it going ? This is my first time posting on your channel. And this video gave me the idea ask you a question on powered subs for a 2.1 music only system. I'm putting together my very first bookshelf speaker system, due to room limited real estate. My question is in your opinion which powered sub would be better for for a variety of music. I want to stay in the $500-$1000 price range. Thank you in advance.
Anything from Rythmik or HSU.
Dont understand how to setup the dayton mic with rew spl meter is not accurate and test is too loud
Awesome information!! Thanks! One question though - is it preferable to adjust phase directly in the sub or changing the distance in the receiver menu? Thanks in advance
actually the best thing is to physically move the subs around in the room, preferably SW should be directly at the wall, so you are avoiding destructive summation. The dips and boosts you can see in the freq domain are actually standing waves caused by the room geometry. These waves you can not EQ, since this is a room geometry problem. If possible, I would suggest to put some absorbers in the corners. Preferably Bass Traps, but if you dont want to spend the money, you could also fill the corners with porouse absorbers.
@@TT-pb4zp nonsense. Subbass parametric EQ thru Minidsp to solve standing waves is one of the best and also cheapest options.
Is there a newer video than this? You are not properly calibrating. What is the phase angle of your mains at low pass to subs? What is the relative phase of each sub to this angle? How did you determine delay (advance) to each sub?
If the subs and mains integrate without cancellation, the phase is lined up. Delay was set based on measured response between the mains and subs. More advanced users can use waveletts to determine time alignment but even if the subs are a couple of cycles off from the mains, this usually will NOT be audible. Frequency response is the ultimate guide for getting good bass in rooms.
Do you make the phase adjustments and eq ( in svs app ) before or after run audyssey?
Before, so the Audyssey "sees" the configured subs
Your lighting is a but lacking. The audio is noticeably better. You might invest ~$100 into a simple light kit. Screen capture software makes this type of video look better too. That way the bad color balance is less noticeable. Thanks for the great content.
Thanks so much!