REW Home Theater Subwoofer And Main Speaker Time Alignment And New House Curve Method
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- Опубліковано 12 тра 2020
- This covers some new features of REW Room Eq Wizard in the beta verrsion with a new automatic time alignment feature. If you ONLY need to know about the new time alignment feature skip to 20:13
The rest is an overview of integrating your subs with your mains, getting them eqed perfectly, some common mistakes made and lots more tips. I also show using a MiniDSP to use a shelf filter instead of house curve for even better results across the crossover point.
Equipment Used:
iPhone X
Shure MV88+ Mic: amzn.to/2PUyPIK
Polk Audio LSiM707 Speakers: amzn.to/2NQxTCg
Polk Audio R50 Speakers: amzn.to/2E1XfJ4
Yamaha RX-V2085 Receiver: amzn.to/2JUfWBE
Monolith 3x200 watt Amplifier: amzn.to/2NQty2d
Monolith Interconnects: amzn.to/2Np0qA3
Custom Speaker Wires: • How To Make Top Qualit...
Various Acoustimac & GIK Acoustics absorption and diffusion panels: amzn.to/2JUOjby
Synology 1019+ NAS: amzn.to/31h10mY
Seagate IronWolf Drives: amzn.to/32jV6D4
Recorded in Pure Direct, straight to and from camera. Source, Amazon Music HD over Airplay at CD Quality. UA-cam does not support more.
Sound Demo videos are not monetized by me, all proceeds go direct to the respective copyright holders.
How To Place Speakers: • Master Set & Rational ...
Polk LSiM707 Unboxing: • Polk LSiM 707 Unboxing...
Polk LSiM706 Unboxing: • Polk LSiM 706c Center ...
Polk LSiM702 Unboxing: • Polk Audio LSiM 702 Un...
Polk LSiM707 Review: • Polk Audio LSiM707 Tow...
Monolith 3x200 Amplifier Review: • Monoprice Monolith 3x2...
Streaming Services Comparison: • Which Music Service Is...
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. - Навчання та стиль
This covers some new features of REW Room Eq Wizard in the beta verrsion with a new automatic time alignment feature. If you ONLY need to know about the new time alignment feature skip to 20:13
The rest is an overview of integrating your subs with your mains, getting them eqed perfectly, some common mistakes made and lots more tips. I also show using a MiniDSP to use a shelf filter instead of house curve for even better results across the crossover point.
Equipment Used:
iPhone X
Shure MV88+ Mic: amzn.to/2PUyPIK
Polk Audio LSiM707 Speakers: amzn.to/2NQxTCg
Polk Audio R50 Speakers: amzn.to/2E1XfJ4
Yamaha RX-V2085 Receiver: amzn.to/2JUfWBE
Monolith 3x200 watt Amplifier: amzn.to/2NQty2d
Monolith Interconnects: amzn.to/2Np0qA3
Custom Speaker Wires: ua-cam.com/video/YuxK-HQGvkI/v-deo.html
Various Acoustimac & GIK Acoustics absorption and diffusion panels: amzn.to/2JUOjby
Synology 1019+ NAS: amzn.to/31h10mY
Seagate IronWolf Drives: amzn.to/32jV6D4
Recorded in Pure Direct, straight to and from camera. Source, Amazon Music HD over Airplay at CD Quality. UA-cam does not support more.
Sound Demo videos are not monetized by me, all proceeds go direct to the respective copyright holders.
How To Place Speakers: ua-cam.com/video/kjYTGV0LMcs/v-deo.html
Polk LSiM707 Unboxing: ua-cam.com/video/q2rBKmocYRM/v-deo.html
Polk LSiM706 Unboxing: ua-cam.com/video/JiR_yztgdM8/v-deo.html
Polk LSiM702 Unboxing: ua-cam.com/video/B_103GVXQVo/v-deo.html
Polk LSiM707 Review: ua-cam.com/video/SoJLyKeJmy4/v-deo.html
Monolith 3x200 Amplifier Review: ua-cam.com/video/0-k67AtyU_I/v-deo.html
Streaming Services Comparison: ua-cam.com/video/lzSjm7FsWbM/v-deo.html
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.
Hey man don’t want to hate on the setup but i think you need to take a look at your amplifier..i don’t think that amp can play that low...
Gr
Finally a time alignment feature in REW!! Thank you for this PSA and tutorial. I can't wait to upgrade versions.
Thank you for this! Since we both have SVS this basically caters to me AND you explain things in real world terms that folks can understand!
Finally a video on REW that actually helps 🤪
Thanks mate 😊
I'm even more grateful you decided to get the MiniDSP. You didn't need it, but the community is going to get to learn so much from this. What's interesting is how there are different ways you can achieve good results. That new phase alignment in the new beta is clutch. I successfully managed to optimize my subs yesterday, but I'm going to try on a different configuration using your methods, just to see if I can get better results (that crossover point is indeed a challenge).
Great video.
I'm hoping to add a second sub for the back of the room in next few years and your videos have helped me in understanding what I'll need come the day. As my DDRC24 runs Dirac for phase and time. But knowing that REW can do it before I run Dirac will aid the pairing and relationships between the MLP and main speakers. Thank you.
Another very informative vid.
Thanks again.
Great info and well explained. Thank You.
Great video 👍🏼
Just getting into REW this weekend
and really enjoying it 😊
Have fun!
Man this is super helpful 👍
For those without room correction this is a life saver. Kudos and time to try BEQ settings for individual movies with that HD unit! I'll add to this that AVrant champions a 12 step dual subwoofer method where one has both subwoofers on a Y splitter so you get only one distance setting. It would be very interesting to compare both methods with this tool and perhaps even for stereo bass and playback where some claim bass is localized down to 50 Hz. Room correction software usually outputs distance settings very close to the actual yard stick distance, but subs never do. I would think those doing something like REL subs with pure analog system that this measurement might allow them to discover the right sub position and even use mindsp to set it when this phase process comes back with a negative number. Cutting edge stuff really from minidsp.
Thanks! - Very detailled video. - I'll be gettind REW and MinDSP2x4HD shortly to manage 4 subs - AVR = Denon 4400.
Great straight to the point video about this topic. 2 thumbs up!
Boost is fine if your EQ isn't clipping the output, same as turning the volume up (selectively). If your EQ range is +/- 6dB.. pushing all EQ points to +6 *should* only be pushing the line level output to 100% and if your amp gain is set correctly you're good. The catch is that a dip is usually a cancellation and you're not going to have enough boost to overcome the cancellation. Thanks for REW content, been using it for years! Always something new to learn!
To add to that:
You cannot ”overcome” the cancellation even if you had lots of power, headroom and EQ boost. It’s inadequate practice to apply boosts into an area of a dip. The cancellation will still be present, only less hearable in your mic position. You will also make the off axis response worse and therefore other seats (mic positions) and the interaction with the room will have an altered tonality. Also, most DSP EQ shifts phase.
You need to time align the sources and look at phase, group delay Waterfall and you need enough LF treatment placed right.
Narrow FR dips in the modal region are often a sign of modal energy, not a lack of it, it’s often just cancelled with the current positions of the source and the mic.
Thank you.
Interesting choice to add the house curve in the miniDSP input instead of doing in it REW when generating the EQ filters. However, if sub in room response is more house curved than flat, it would make sense to use a target house curve in REW EQ. (Doesn't make sense to take many dBs out only to put them back in again.)
Are your subs placed symmetrically? Because you want make sure the subs are time aligned to each other before you time align them to your mains.
Just to add at the beginning for the AVR mode especially for Yamaha. In addition to being in only Straight mode, you should ALSO DISABLE ENHANCER. This is a "low res compressor" that will boost anything below 120hz and anything above 1khz. So make sure that is disabled.
What do the speaker trims have to do with the subwoofer level? I've gotten the same results whether I had my speakers running full range without a subwoofer or when running small with the subwoofer. It adds a negative or positive trim based on reference level test tone for each individual speaker.
Good video. Although time align and phase are not the same. You can be time aligned and out of phase.
I'm running the latest beta 53 and I don't have the alignment tool available when I access "controls". Am I missing something? Running Win 10 64bit
I have to say, I tried the time correction in REW (also using a MiniDSP 2x4HD) and the results were terrible. The measurements after using the suggested delay on the 2nd sub was nothing like what it said it would be. Manually testing delays resulted in a much better result. I really wish this had worked for me.
how did you compensate for the gain/headroom that you lost from running the EQ as all cuts? Also, how and where did you EQ and account for all the speakers playing together? If you EQ them individually great, but together, they're going to have a different response. Maybe I missed it in the video, sorry if I did just trying to wrap my head around what I need to do in REW before using my mindsp SHD to run a Dirac correction. I think I just need to level match my subs to my mains using pink noise, and then time align the subs to the mains and make sure the crossovers are set optimally, then I should run the Dirac correction, right?
Hi. While using the “align phase slope at cursor” using the alignment tool, all was going well but at 100hz and 120hz (my avr does not have 110hz) cross over, i instead of getting a negative number got a positive number. How do i use this positive number for adding a delay to all subs in the minidsp hd. (I mean, we are to treat the negative number as a positive and add that to the subwoofer delays in the minidsp hd). Confused here, please help.
OK, but where do I have to increase the volume? On the sub, gain? I tried yesterday but the bass was way too loud and it hummed! I'm doing something wrong. When I quietly watch a movie, the sub don't turn on, too little signal. Thanks for the quick answer, I hope you can help me further. Thank you.
Should you do the distance adjustment even after you have run MiniDSP filtering?
To match Volume to 75DB. Can I use the subs for that? I cant connect the front speakers to the 2x4hd afiak only the subs right
What microphone stand do you use for testing? Thanks.
Hello GS, I also found your video on RSP very interesting. After watching this video I’m a bit confused. What should I do in regards of aligning all speakers and sub? Ether I align all speakers to each other and then align the group of speakers to the sub. Which would keep the alignment between the speakers but would be a compromise to the alignment with the sub. Or should I align each speaker individually to the sub for best crossover but loosing the alignment between the speakers? Thanks
I'm confused. Am I supposed to set mains to 0db trim before running sweeps? I've run auto EQ several times and adjusted sub volume up and down a bit. AVR still cutting mains by -5db or -8db. AVR also cuts subs -6db. Or am I watching this out of order?
Followed the steps but getting a "Measurements do not have a timing reference" when I click on the Time alignment tool
Where does the 60 Right Phase test come from? Is that just subs alone?
Is there a way to do this alignment without a miniDSP, that is just using the AVR? Mine is a one Sub scenario and the AV is a preamp Marantz AV8805 which has a Graphis EQ available but that would need Audyssey turned off.
I thought when the sub and the front speakers are aligned the frequency response is more flat and is loudest. Why does a frequency response drop when you time align it automatically through REW??
At the very end when adding volume to the subs after the shelf filter, are you adding that volume on the dsp through gain or on the AVR levels?
Gain usually
When I use alignment tool, put the number into AVR and re-test and re-run alignment tool I always get a different random number out that is never close to 0 :|
What's your recommendation for doing this with say like the ultra towers with them having the two added subs built-in? Would this make things more difficult?
They aren’t real subs just low drivers.
Thanks for great video. One question thou, why doing sweeps against L+R and not the Center? Wouldn’t most content eg dialog via center be at that crossover region?
Dialogue is well above crossover points. Very little low bass is mixed to center.
@@COGuyStuff Not actually - Try Atmos demos with center full range - you would be suprised
My avr denon avrx3500 doesnt let me do it when i measure in audyccey i get 2,45 m distance, after measurring sub separate and mains separate and use the time allignement tool it says 5,46 m so together that is 7,91 m. the avr keeps telling me that it is not valid and places it back to 7,29 what gives an awfull result.
Hello, I have a question about minidsp 2x4HD. I've been trying to configure the minidsp for 3 days, but I can't do it 100%. I don't know why the headroom always shows 6.7dB when measuring REW, I can't go up to 38.7 or 42.6 etc. What can that mean?
Thank you.
It means your test volume isn't high enough.
Hi can I adjust delay by ear?
No
Hi I understand how to do everything on rew specifically eq with the use of a minidsp. I've recently purchased all the equipment (new audiophile) except minidsp (out of $$). Is it possible to apply eq from rew without the use of minidsp?? Thank you!
No
Hey man little help i have Denon x3700h how to connect pc with receiver and microphone 🎤 please little help man please
Question. But with this technique, once you put that shelf into the INPUT of the MiniDSP, how does it interfere with using BEQ? Doesn’t BEQ add its filters to the INPUT as well?
This vid was made before I did BEQ. Yes you keep the input clear if using BEQ, everything goes in the output.
My minidsp comes in this weekend so I have a few quick questions.
1. You said to have the crossover for the mains set when taking measurements for alignment. Should I also turn on Audyssey or leave it off?
2. Once you are done with your corrections and you are boosting your subs to taste, do increase your gain at the receiver, the minidsp, or with the gain knob on the subs?
1 - doesn't matter, it doesn't effect phase alignment during the test.
2 - as long as it's not positive in the AVR, doesn't matter.
Thank you. One more question. When I’m running my sweeps should I have it set in preferences to L+R or only a just single main?
Thanks, good video. What happen if you run the time alignment again after adding the delay to the subs? In my system I have still about the same fault.. same for you?
I don’t understand the question
CO Guy Stuff after I added the the delay in the Yamaha reciver I run the time alinement again. Result was almost the same (about 5m difference) why not 0? Do you get 0 if you run again?
Thats an interesting point
Michael Piper same for you?
I thought that in order to get the subs to be flat, you have to set the target level to 0.0
how would I do this if I don't have the mini DSP you're using and all I got is the Phase setting from the SVS app?
Just trial and error measuring the results with each step.
So if I have 4 subs - one in each of the four corners of my listening area (two in front and two behind), should I run all 4 from one DSP input or split them up (I.e., the two front subs on one input and two rear subs on the other input)?
All in one, no need to complicate it
Wouldn’t it just be easier to use arc and antham amp ;)
Saw they also make a version of it with Dirac Live, have you seen/tested that? Maybe that version isn't mean/suited for the virtual "one sub" task?
That's made for a whole system using separate amps. Way overkill for just subs.
I have a quick question, I just moved my Subwoofers from their sidewall position to the front of the theater. Should I rerun Audysseyand REW Room Eq Wizard?
Absolutely.
@@COGuyStuff thanks!!!
What volume do you use for the microphone input in the Windows recording device settings? It's a slider from 0-100.
For UMIK-1 you need to go into microphone properties and switch the slider scale to dB. Set to 0. This equates to 52 or something if I remember correctly.
@@haraldpost unplugging and plugging it in causes it to reset to 52, which i assume is the "0" setting.
Does not work with Audyssey because it wont let you exceed 20ft difference in distance settings. YAPO does not have this limitation.
It depends on the model and version they are not all the same
@@COGuyStuff
I've contacted Denon support about this. None of the Denon/Marantz AVRs can compensate for more than 18ms delay between channels, not even the X8500H. It's a design limitation due to hardware choices. I also contacted Audyssey support and they blame this on Denon, because it's not an Audyssey limitation. FIY, Denon implements Audtssey at 48kHz, so no point in playing 96kHz audio...
@@ebarbie5016 Same problem here, thanks for the info.
How can I do this if I can't roll of the mains? My speakers have somewhat low extension that makes it difficult to level match them with the sub while maintaining a flat/smooth low end. They have bumps around the 40 and 80 range with a null from 55-65. I was able to smooth out the sub itself but combining them is very difficult.
You can't. You need to use a crossover somewhere in the chain. What kind of setup are you using that doesn't have one?
@@COGuyStuff Sorry, didn't see your reply. I'm running Sony SCS5's, with a Yamaha a-s501 integrated amp. It has no crossover controls to speak of.
Great video. I need to ask one question, why have you got 2x delay settings?? One in the avr and the 2nd in REW and then added both together? Surely there is only one delay and that's what REW calculated??
What time stamps are you talking about
At 23.40mins u added the distance calculated in REW at 21 feet to your AVR already calculated figure? Why? At 35 total feel? Surely there is only one calculated fig??
You misunderstood. I said OR for adding the delay in minidsp OR adding distance in the AVR. I clearly said I chose to do it in the avr.
Yes that's correct you did... ok I'll ask this question where did you get the 35.2 feet in your AVR when you calculated 19feet in rew?
Following
Great video man! Either I am stupid or something is off here- min 23 it asks you to reduce delay of mains so add delay to the subs....Shouldn't you then reduce the distance of subs in AVR (for AVR to add delay) instead of adding distance to the subs? Adding distance to subs in AVR should make AVR add delay to other speakers, making the subs actually "less" delayed...
Distance and delay are the same thing, just different units of measure. More distance equals more delay.
@@COGuyStuff But don't they work in reverse? Meaning delay is applied to a speaker that is further in relation to the one that is closer. If you want to delay speaker A in relation to a speaker B you need to make speaker B further (to apply delay to speaker A). Here you wanted to delay subs so you should make AVR think they are closer (reduce distance) in order for AVR to delay them.
At 7:50 you say you find it easier and faster to do the AVR's room calibration/correction (YPAO, Audyssey, etc.) first, but then -- if I understand correctly -- you wipe out (reset to 0) the resulting EQ and levels. So why do the room correction?
He zeroed the AVR sub EQ because he is using miniDSP 2x4 HD to EQ/align subs.
You misunderstood. When using minidsp all subs connected to it become one virtual sub to the processor. Only the sub calibration is taken over. The rest of ypao is valid.
@@COGuyStuff Right, I misunderstood the context for "wipe everything out." Thanks for replying to my comment made two years after the video -- appreciate it!
Great video however I have a question that is not clear to me. Both of my SVS SB3000 subs are gain matched. When I run Audyssey NO MATTER what gain I have my subs on my main speakers come back at -9.0.
So I'm unclear on how you say to run Audyssey over and over until they come back at 0.0. If this is not what you're saying then I'm misinterpreting that part of the video.
Can you please clarify?
Something is wrong with your testing or setup. It’s trying to turn down your mains which means something else is too loud.
CO Guy Stuff I have a Marantz 8805 going to a two Emotiva UPA-1 mono block amps.
The rest of the speakers are being powered by a Marantz MM7055 5 channel amp.
The main speakers are clearly louder than the other speakers during Audyssey calibration.
Doesn’t Audyssey set the main volume level when running Audyssey? So basically you don’t have to do anything to the main volume knob.
The gain on the two SVS SB3000 subs is -18dB in the app for both subs.
This may have something to do with it. I’m using XLR (balanced cables) for every connection EXCEPT for the subs which are RCA.
I’m pretty sure the XLR cable connection is giving it the extra 3-6dB
Let me know if you have an idea of how to compensate for this?
Why would you rerun Audyssey or Ypao AFTER using REW and getting your sub all setup. Would those systems then RE EQ the sub again and you’d end up with different results.
Because I don't run the EQ in the AVR. It just changes levels and distances. If you want to run the EQ do it before and don't touch it. Lots of ways to do it.
@@COGuyStuff So if you're happy with the way room correction has your speakers then just turn it off just for the sub, use REW and the Mini DSP to EQ the sub and then use the distance adjustment to align it to the mains and you're done?
For the Alignment Tool in rew, can we do same procedure you give, but instead use ASIO4all plugin..
So measure left and right together then use channel 4(LFE OUTPUT) to measure sub..
Instead of turning using just left and right channels (turning off main speakers) to measure sub alone..
Thanks
Question: if your AVR's LFE is set to 120Hz, wouldn't setting your Bass Management Cutoff and Match Range at 80Hz begin to rolloff frequencies in your LFE channel too low?
Lfe and mains crossover are two different things. Lfe should always be 120, that’s the production standard. Most receivers don’t even allow it to be changed and it confuses people all the time. Multichannel lfe signal is discreet. The crossover is only for sound that was going to the mains (and other speakers) to the sub IN ADDITION to the lfe signal, that was always only for the sub.
@@COGuyStuff I understand what LFE is, but from the miniDSP’s point of view, it doesn’t differentiate between discrete or non-discrete low frequencies. So if you set the miniDSP’s management at 80Hz to the subs, you’ll limit any content from 80Hz to 120Hz meant for the subs
You are confused, the minidsp is not handling any crossover. Just eq and delay.
@@COGuyStuff right, so you’re not interested in EQ’ing the subs from 80Hz to 120Hz?
Generally no. There are only 10 filters with so much range and you usually need to limit it for best effect down low where most of the EQ can do good. The filters are generally wasted up that high unless you have a serious issue.
When you're running all of these tests, do you have your avr set to the crossover point (ie: 80Hz) or should I set my avr at the highest crossover while testing? Thanks
At your crossover point
@@COGuyStuff Thanks!
What are the chances of FaceTiming me and taking me through the process? Lol
I try to follow the videos, it becomes very frustrating.
I have 4 18 inch martys. I have a 2x4 minidsp hd. Inuke 6000 and a crown XTI 2002.
My mains are psb platinum series. I keep messing stuff up. Lol
Audyssey will only let you put in a distance that is about 20 feet from your Mains. What do you do then if you want to do it on the AVR?
I think you are mistaken, unless you have some weird really old version. Maybe you have it set to Meters. It goes far beyond that as do they all, that I've ever seen.
@@COGuyStuff maybe it’s because I have the basic MultiEQ version? I checked that it is in feet of course.
What model
Denon s740H.
Page 182 of your manual says you have the normal limit of 60 feet.
Very interesting! I obtained great results prior to aligning the subs to my mains. Then when I measured the response of the subs and mains together the results were unsatisfactory. Here were my steps, please let me know what your opinion is, as I did get a good result in the end, but went about it a different way. First my subwoofers(Seaton Submersives x 2) don't have any controls on the amplifier panel, and I am using the new Denon x6700H.
I performed Audyssey first, then disabled any settings in Audyssey MultEQ XT32 to off, then turned the speaker setting to preamp mode to disengage all speakers(or just unplug them)
1. Gain match subs
2. Level match subs (78db)
3. Adjusted delay on output section of miniDSP between two subs due to asymmetric layout in my rectangular room layout and then linked them.
4. Performed EQ with REW and uploaded the result into miniDSP with the 2 linked outputs(I did the house curve here)
5. Did a full sweep from 5-20000Hz in REW and noted the response.
Where I differ from your tutorial:
6. Re-engaged main speakers and manually adjusted the distance of the subwoofer combo within the Denon Audyssey settings until I could get the best response.
7. Once I got the best response, then I took that response and ran EQ in REW again for that response and then installed the settings in the Input 1 of the miniDSP 2x4HD
Thoughts?
Regards, and excellent channel!
In my miniDSP (4*10HD) I can only add 0-9ms delay. How did you add the delay to you subs? did you get a figure below 9ms? When I used the method in the video I got 19ms delay...
Hi do you use the parametric eq in the svs sub app ?
When you clicked on "align phase slopes at Cursor" there was a massive dip in the 85hz area. Is that normal or am I missing something? What happens when I trial and error and place the cursor on different frequencies and pick the one which has the flattest outcome?
im not using a mini dsp,just a umic.and,My two subs are really one sub bc of denon avr has 2
Yes some avrs have independent dual sub outs so you can phase and level match. It’s still not close to using a minidsp for full eq let alone house curve though.
Now if you mean your avr has dual outputs but only single controls in the menu, that is horrible and not true dual output. That is simply an internal y splitter for the sub signal. Those models offer no control to match the subs.
@@COGuyStuff that does suck..that is exactly what my denon avr does.2 outputs,one signal..so there's no way to balance them? avr-1500h?? So should i just use one sub..10-10-8 ROOM.And if the mic is useless i'll send it back.Thanks for your fast replies.$100..lol (mic)
The mic is just part of what you need. That’s the whole point. Get a minidsp with multiple subs.
SVS? LOL, should have bought Rythmiks.
lol uh, very old vid. Have PSA for a while now
I use rew EQ + minidsp. I also ran ARC post all this
I bypassed autocal for my subs in ARC
So my mains are not time aligned to mains
Can i time align post ARC? In my situation?
Or do i need to disable Arc then time align then run ARC again even though i bypass autocal from 10hz to 100hz?