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Man this is the best and most technical tuning video related to ignition timing I've found on YT. Pure gold. Thank u so much for this. You've gotten yourself a new subscriber.
В конце видео показан лог с такого же мотора. На 5767rpm при цикловом наполнении 1.38g/str и УОЗ равном в 11gr происходит отскок (knock retard) в 6gr. При меньше УОЗ (11gr), чем при УОЗ (15gr) происходит детонация.
With the addition of a pressure sensor installed into one chamber in the cylinder head I'd imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to actually monitor/record data and create that cylinder pressure graph in relation to timing, valve actuation timing & ignition timing, and use that data to precisely dial that engine in!!!! I'll let u know how it goes, sounds like my new project!!!!! 👍
Have a listen to this podcast which touches on in-cylinder pressure monitoring. Anything is 'easy' to do if you have the time and money to be fair 😉 - www.hpa-tunedin.com/1755412/10749070-043-building-a-triple-turbo-pdk-equipped-vw-diesel-weapon Little bit in here too for the ECU side of things: www.hpacademy.com/blog/how-modern-ecus-have-become-awesome-entry-to-professional-level-ecus-tech-talk/ - Taz.
I enjoyed that. I’m gonna hafta buy an aftermarket knock detection system I think? I have a wap block and have to grind off the knock sensor boss so the 03-04 mustang Cobra manifold will fit.
Tuning request: Could you please get a supercharged Honda S2000 to tune from scratch? The icing on the cake would be if it were running an AEM Series 2 EMS ;)
I know this isn't in the scope of this channel, but could you do something similar for 2 stroke engines? At least the fundamentals, because as far as i'm aware 2t behaves differently in relation to ignition timing, especially under resonance.
Two strokes are very different. Not something we have on our radar now, but honestly that depends on who joins the HPA team in the future as well =) - Taz.
@@hpa101 Thank you for the reply! I've been toying with small 2 stroke engines for a while now and it is indeed quite a bit different, at least with my very limited experience. Perhaps one day with camless engine designs, 2 stroking will become more popular on bigger engines, especially in performance world.
Yeah a two stroke ignition map looks opposite to an N/A 4 stroke. Lots of advice off idle low throttle etc (because of poor cylinder filling and exhaust contamination) then as rpm and efficiency kick in timing is pulled back. Then after peak hp the time can come back in again! To help widen power curve.
@@boosthit811 Yeah, that's what i figured and noticed with aftermarket CDI boxes. Stock points ignition has static ignition and compared to a curvy cdi retrofit, makes quite a bit of difference in regards to power and torque. At least according to my butt dyno :)
When tuning my idle on a gen 3 ls1 after a c swap do I need to make my high and low octane tables match my spark advance tables in drive and park in the 1200 rpm range and from .28 grams per cylinder?
i know this is old but does that mean you configure ignition timing after youve already got the rest of the tune configured? like youve got your fuel maps, boost control maps setup already you would then move onto advancing ignition timing until its at the optimal advancement where no knock occurs. and if youre at the optimal ignition timing and you get knock events at certain times during that timing you use the knock retard graph to decide where in that timing map you should remove timing? like if you added that 3 degrees of timing and it was having slight knock at that 5k rpm you would reduce the ignition timing at that 5k rpm only to optimally run your timing map?
Why isn’t the optimum crank angle for torque produced at 90 degrees atdc? Is it because the fuel has already produced peak cylinder pressure and the valve is beginning to open or?
Should the aim be to maximize timing advance across the board from 0 to max RPM and only retard it once knock is seen, or is there a specific area of the timing map which should be focused on? I am currently tweaking my timing on a 4G63T and I am still unsure if I should touch the timings at low RPM/low Load factors.
Yes, you want MBT across your usable Rev range for best performance. If it's a street car you can optimize the cruise area for economy remembering that your don't cruise at wide open throttle so there is some flexibility. If you are knock limited then yes you will find that before you reach MBT, but if you are not you can go past it and then begin to lose power as you increase the timing further. Without a dyno you can't tell exactly where that point is, however, it's one of the reasons why we have 3d maps as it will help you see anything that doesn't conform smoothly with the shape of your map as it should. Bit more too it all but hope that helps with your question along with the lessons - Taz.
i see most graph of ign timing is rising from -10 @idle to approx -30 @3000rpm and the flat until 7000rpm, can you explain why it happen like that? because if the timing became more advance while rpm increasing, in order to catch speed of piston, then why its become flat after 3000rpm?
Glad you are enjoying the content, cheers. To answer your question, yes, absolutely. It is less of a concern with a low-power naturally aspirated engine compared to something turbocharged, but one of the reasons why we tune is to avoid things like knock occurring in dangerous areas of the map. You sacrifice a bit of power, but it's better than sacrificing an engine. The only other way to deal with it is by using a higher octane fuel as you know, if you can, but that isn't always realistic or possible in some cases depending on the application. The golden rule is to tune for the fuel you WILL be using, not the fuel you HOPE to be using 😎 Hope that helps! - Taz.
yes, more throttle = more fuel and air in the cylinder this ignites faster and therefor needs less advance. when cruizing you arnt giving the cylinder much fuel so the combustion is slow not need to light it earlier with more advance.
Hi, any tip how to controll the KNOCK on motorcycle engine? I am very interested in tuning bikes lately and so far I know there is no such thing as knock sensor. THX!
I dont think many do the manufactured would just one table that works for the octane recommended for the car, if that was high octane and you used low octane just would just used spark retard to save the engine. otherwise it would need a fuel octane sensor fitted.
@@hpa101 The cylinder pressure curves have btdc and atdc mislabeled on the x axis. I too was confused by those labels. Must be something you guys down under use 😉. Love your vids, man! Greetings from America!
@@esmither ahh thanks for mentioning where that was, definitely a mistake from our upside down keyboard-ist. What Andre says is correct but those labels are wrong, and in true 'full send' style we doubled down on both haha Really sorry about that, we're gong to reshoot this series next year so I'll leave things as is for and let the replacement be the fix. We work really hard to avoid little mistakes like this but sometimes they do slip through and it's awesome to be told so that we have an opportunity to address and sort them - Taz.
90% of what you talk about is common knowledge amoung people that have had anything to do with cars. What we don't know is how to flash and tune the ECU and unfortunately you talk little to none about that subject.
Luckily we price everything very fairly 😎 That said, the lessons themselves have a ton of knowledge, you are not being forced to by anything you don't want or need - Taz.
The Practical Reflash Tuning course isn't $400 (it's $229) if you just want that specific course, but I understand that quality training like this does come at a price and that isn't worth it to everyone depending on their budgets and goals. In fact EFI tuning in general is an expensive hobby on the whole, unfortunately, and the course material is going to be the cheapest part of it as a rule. I would ask what other quality course material you are comparing us with price wise however, and if you have actually gone through the course material to verify the quality compared to it before judging? We do have a 60-day money back policy after all which is not something many business offer in general let alone education providers. Even if HPA isn't for you, I hope you find what you're looking for out there without it costing you hours and hours and hours of time searching and verifying once you have. There is some great content out there, but also a lot that does lead people astray even with good intentions behind it - Taz.
![Tuning WITHOUT A Dyno | Road Tuning Reflash Tuning Lesson 4 Of 4 [FREE LESSON]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yAXhNt_gYjU/mqdefault.jpg)
![Tuning WITHOUT A Dyno | Road Tuning Reflash Tuning Lesson 4 Of 4 [FREE LESSON]](/img/tr.png)
![Fuel Tuning | Reflash Tuning Lesson 2 Of 4 [FREE LESSON]](/img/n.gif)
🦸♂ Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy81
✅Kickstart your EFI Tuning knowledge. Get 50% OFF your first online course: hpcdmy.co/offery81
Man this is the best and most technical tuning video related to ignition timing I've found on YT. Pure gold. Thank u so much for this. You've gotten yourself a new subscriber.
So happy this is available
Fantastic information. Thanks Andre. I'm looking forward to the next one
Well explained in great detail! You are excellent at presenting and tutoring a class of car enthusiasts, keep it up :)
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos
Glad you like them!
Excellent teaching very thorough.
VERY VERY VERY GOOD EXPLANATION, MAN ! THANKS !
Glad it helped!
thank you very much for the information.
You are welcome mate, hope it was helpful - Taz.
love the detail you add when noting something... no place for tabu on this channel haha
much appreciated, bless
This is briliant thanks!
В конце видео показан лог с такого же мотора.
На 5767rpm при цикловом наполнении 1.38g/str и УОЗ равном в 11gr происходит отскок (knock retard) в 6gr.
При меньше УОЗ (11gr), чем при УОЗ (15gr) происходит детонация.
This is so good
Stoked to hear you're enjoying the series. Chur! - Taz.
With the addition of a pressure sensor installed into one chamber in the cylinder head I'd imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to actually monitor/record data and create that cylinder pressure graph in relation to timing, valve actuation timing & ignition timing, and use that data to precisely dial that engine in!!!! I'll let u know how it goes, sounds like my new project!!!!! 👍
Have a listen to this podcast which touches on in-cylinder pressure monitoring. Anything is 'easy' to do if you have the time and money to be fair 😉 - www.hpa-tunedin.com/1755412/10749070-043-building-a-triple-turbo-pdk-equipped-vw-diesel-weapon
Little bit in here too for the ECU side of things: www.hpacademy.com/blog/how-modern-ecus-have-become-awesome-entry-to-professional-level-ecus-tech-talk/ - Taz.
Great
I enjoyed that. I’m gonna hafta buy an aftermarket knock detection system I think? I have a wap block and have to grind off the knock sensor boss so the 03-04 mustang Cobra manifold will fit.
Tuning request: Could you please get a supercharged Honda S2000 to tune from scratch? The icing on the cake would be if it were running an AEM Series 2 EMS ;)
HP Tuners, Motec, Haltech is there anything you can't demo?
I know this isn't in the scope of this channel, but could you do something similar for 2 stroke engines? At least the fundamentals, because as far as i'm aware 2t behaves differently in relation to ignition timing, especially under resonance.
Two strokes are very different. Not something we have on our radar now, but honestly that depends on who joins the HPA team in the future as well =) - Taz.
@@hpa101 Thank you for the reply! I've been toying with small 2 stroke engines for a while now and it is indeed quite a bit different, at least with my very limited experience.
Perhaps one day with camless engine designs, 2 stroking will become more popular on bigger engines, especially in performance world.
Yeah a two stroke ignition map looks opposite to an N/A 4 stroke. Lots of advice off idle low throttle etc (because of poor cylinder filling and exhaust contamination) then as rpm and efficiency kick in timing is pulled back. Then after peak hp the time can come back in again! To help widen power curve.
@@boosthit811 Yeah, that's what i figured and noticed with aftermarket CDI boxes.
Stock points ignition has static ignition and compared to a curvy cdi retrofit, makes quite a bit of difference in regards to power and torque. At least according to my butt dyno :)
When tuning my idle on a gen 3 ls1 after a c swap do I need to make my high and low octane tables match my spark advance tables in drive and park in the 1200 rpm range and from .28 grams per cylinder?
i know this is old but does that mean you configure ignition timing after youve already got the rest of the tune configured? like youve got your fuel maps, boost control maps setup already you would then move onto advancing ignition timing until its at the optimal advancement where no knock occurs. and if youre at the optimal ignition timing and you get knock events at certain times during that timing you use the knock retard graph to decide where in that timing map you should remove timing? like if you added that 3 degrees of timing and it was having slight knock at that 5k rpm you would reduce the ignition timing at that 5k rpm only to optimally run your timing map?
Thank you!
You're welcome!
If I was in Australia I’d def bring you my e36
That short wheelbase prado is pretty sick, not gonna lie
yeah...had my eye on that too......
Thanks guys. It was mine when we filmed this. It was great fun. I have a Hilux now :) - Ben
Why isn’t the optimum crank angle for torque produced at 90 degrees atdc? Is it because the fuel has already produced peak cylinder pressure and the valve is beginning to open or?
Should the aim be to maximize timing advance across the board from 0 to max RPM and only retard it once knock is seen, or is there a specific area of the timing map which should be focused on? I am currently tweaking my timing on a 4G63T and I am still unsure if I should touch the timings at low RPM/low Load factors.
Yes, you want MBT across your usable Rev range for best performance. If it's a street car you can optimize the cruise area for economy remembering that your don't cruise at wide open throttle so there is some flexibility.
If you are knock limited then yes you will find that before you reach MBT, but if you are not you can go past it and then begin to lose power as you increase the timing further.
Without a dyno you can't tell exactly where that point is, however, it's one of the reasons why we have 3d maps as it will help you see anything that doesn't conform smoothly with the shape of your map as it should.
Bit more too it all but hope that helps with your question along with the lessons - Taz.
What is the function of the advance increasing when throttle is released? I dont get why the tunes do that?
i see most graph of ign timing is rising from -10 @idle to approx -30 @3000rpm and the flat until 7000rpm, can you explain why it happen like that? because if the timing became more advance while rpm increasing, in order to catch speed of piston, then why its become flat after 3000rpm?
Excelent video and thank you.
I have a question, can low octane fuel engine knocking be corrected by doing a proper tuning?
Thank you.
Glad you are enjoying the content, cheers.
To answer your question, yes, absolutely. It is less of a concern with a low-power naturally aspirated engine compared to something turbocharged, but one of the reasons why we tune is to avoid things like knock occurring in dangerous areas of the map.
You sacrifice a bit of power, but it's better than sacrificing an engine. The only other way to deal with it is by using a higher octane fuel as you know, if you can, but that isn't always realistic or possible in some cases depending on the application.
The golden rule is to tune for the fuel you WILL be using, not the fuel you HOPE to be using 😎
Hope that helps! - Taz.
@@hpa101
Excellent and complete answer, cristal clear! Thank you very much! Subscribed!
So the ignition timing is ADVANCED with less throttle input? I thought it was the opposite.
Yes its due to that if theres less air in the cylinder the flame propagation speed goes down and a bunch of other science
yes, more throttle = more fuel and air in the cylinder this ignites faster and therefor needs less advance. when cruizing you arnt giving the cylinder much fuel so the combustion is slow not need to light it earlier with more advance.
When a car is running speed density how dose it measure load? Also is speed density tuning tuning in with the tuning course?
Many thanks 😊
Drew.
Speed density is usually rpm x kpa
Hi, any tip how to controll the KNOCK on motorcycle engine? I am very interested in tuning bikes lately and so far I know there is no such thing as knock sensor.
THX!
He have a video out on knock dectection. It,s called plex knock monitor. Kinda exspensive But looks real good. What type of bikes are you tuning?
@@ktmturbo5836 Hi, thanks for feedback.
Mainly the bestsellers of these days so MT07/9, Z900, CB1000R, Africas etc. pretty basic stuff
@@praguebiker ok did you find a price on the plex monitor?
@@ktmturbo5836 yep, it costs slightly over €1500 incl. VAT and shipping
Awesome video! Any suggestions on programs to view .csv files? My tuner software won’t do it and excel doesn’t really make things user friendly
MegaLog Viewer is easy to get started with, also goes by MLVHD to help you search for more info - Taz.
@@hpa101 you are awesome thanks!!
Do all OEM cars have a high and low octane table or just some specific cars?
I dont think many do the manufactured would just one table that works for the octane recommended for the car, if that was high octane and you used low octane just would just used spark retard to save the engine. otherwise it would need a fuel octane sensor fitted.
Not all. Some actually have many many ignition tables like a mk3 focus RS
Do you have a recommendation for flashing software that will work on a 2010 Audi with a 1st gen EA888 2.0T engine, code CAEB?
Hi on power mods v1.3 1ggze how to setup
Hello. Can you remote tune?
We don't offer remote tuning sorry - Taz.
👍
Is bdtc same as btdc?
Where is BDTC stated? - Taz.
@@hpa101 The cylinder pressure curves have btdc and atdc mislabeled on the x axis. I too was confused by those labels. Must be something you guys down under use 😉.
Love your vids, man! Greetings from America!
@@esmither ahh thanks for mentioning where that was, definitely a mistake from our upside down keyboard-ist. What Andre says is correct but those labels are wrong, and in true 'full send' style we doubled down on both haha
Really sorry about that, we're gong to reshoot this series next year so I'll leave things as is for and let the replacement be the fix.
We work really hard to avoid little mistakes like this but sometimes they do slip through and it's awesome to be told so that we have an opportunity to address and sort them - Taz.
90% of what you talk about is common knowledge amoung people that have had anything to do with cars. What we don't know is how to flash and tune the ECU and unfortunately you talk little to none about that subject.
I hate it when free UA-cam videos lead to overpriced content
Luckily we price everything very fairly 😎 That said, the lessons themselves have a ton of knowledge, you are not being forced to by anything you don't want or need - Taz.
@@hpa101 so over $400 for videos on tuning for a big cam is fairly priced huh? I think not
The Practical Reflash Tuning course isn't $400 (it's $229) if you just want that specific course, but I understand that quality training like this does come at a price and that isn't worth it to everyone depending on their budgets and goals.
In fact EFI tuning in general is an expensive hobby on the whole, unfortunately, and the course material is going to be the cheapest part of it as a rule.
I would ask what other quality course material you are comparing us with price wise however, and if you have actually gone through the course material to verify the quality compared to it before judging?
We do have a 60-day money back policy after all which is not something many business offer in general let alone education providers.
Even if HPA isn't for you, I hope you find what you're looking for out there without it costing you hours and hours and hours of time searching and verifying once you have. There is some great content out there, but also a lot that does lead people astray even with good intentions behind it - Taz.