Is Coffeelock OVERPOWERED in D&D 5e?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- Link to the Monsters of Drakkenheim kickstarter: get.monstersof...
Thank you Ghostfire gaming for sponsoring this video!
Link to Scrolls video: • Scrolls are IMPORTANT ...
Link to Tabletop build's PeaceChron build: tabletopbuilds...
Link to patreon, merch shop, discord and twitter:
www.patreon.co....
/ discord
/ pack_tacticss
my-store-c2bae...
Gator art by Drakeven: / drakeven1
Kobold reading a scroll art by Novatonix:
www.youtube.co....
Link to the Monsters of Drakkenheim kickstarter: get.monstersofdrakkenheim.com/8
Thank you Ghostfire gaming for sponsoring this video!
Real gamers snort cocai- I mean... "consume Diamond Dust."
Opening my Sebastian Crowe books after ordering the tier 7 monsters set while watching a kooky kobold. Good times.
For DM's wanting to nix the Coffeelock shenanigans, I propose this homebrew rule...
On PHB p.101 make the following errata:
In the second paragraph under Flexible Casting, retitle the first sentence "Creating Spell Slots" as "Restoring Spell Slots" and replace the the last sentence that reads "Any spell slot you create with this feature vanishes when you finish a long rest." with "You cannot restore more spell slots than the number shown on the Sorcerer Table for your sorcerer level." At the top of the table following the newly retitled "Restoring Spell Slots" paragraph, retitle the table header from "Converting Spells Slots" to "Restoring Spells Slots"
gators and ali8gators donts sleep in real ife becasue they are voluntary brethers and die if put to sleap
I can tell by the video you never had a player like me constantly use this build to abuse Silvery barbs whenever I want, while also casting hex and quickening fireball or just using quicken to double cast fireball
"Pretty old strategy" Me: Oh, maybe an old edition or something from vanilla i missed?
"This was popular back in the Xanathar days..." Me: Wait, but Xanathar is only a couple of... 7 YEARS OLD!??!?!
Yeah. Xanathars is very old.
My mind rebels trying to think of 7 years as old. I think I passed out for a second when he said it was an old strategy or treated 2014 like some sort of ancient time
Life comes at you fast.
There are kids out there younger then xanatar lol
5E being a decade old is insane. 3E being almost a quarter century old is the height of madness.
For roleplay: Aspect of the Moon does not say that you cannot sleep. It says you don't _need_ to sleep. If your character wants to, they can still sleep. There is no practical reason why you would ever want to do that, except to receive an incoming Dream spell for communication or similar things. But maybe your character simply enjoys sleeping?
Exhaustion, if the DM is using it, will still affect you if you dont long rest.
@@arifhossain9751
And if the DM says short rests don't exist, short rests don't exist. The rules say otherwise.
Look, I didn't know until today that long rests aren't mandatory, and personally I would rule otherwise unless a race or class feature says otherwise, but RAW missing a long rest doesn't automatically cause a level of Exhaustion.
@@theuncalledfor correct. what i mean is that the DM might want to emphasize Survival checks to try and balance a coffeelock, because it wont affect others too much. you wont automatically get Exhaustion, you'll have to roll CON, which I bet is low cos you know, Sorc/lock
Technically (🤓) Aspect of the Moon allows your character to gain "the benefits of a long rest" and losing spell slots hardly counts as a benefit in my humble opinion. I've never understood why people make such a big fuss about staying awake and exhaustion when the single word "benefits" in the ability's description makes it so easy RAW.
@@Xenodotus
NICE!
"God said he would teach me Karate" - Cokelock
A kobold named Bruce Leroy?
Mt. Weight, I need my 2000 km/h of coke
How does a Coffeewock Lurk?
Someone has watched an certain Zee Bashew Video before
This feels like an extension to a Zee Bashew Animated Spellbook.
same, honestly as a sorlock/sorc main I don't fond it op, and it never fun to actually do it.
that’s what I thought!
I didn't know he made a video like this. I'm going to watch it now.
@@PackTactics
Speaking of which, New Zee Bashew video dropped.
I honestly didn't fully understand Zee's explanation
It's not about making the best coffeelock, it's about the thrill of snorting diamond dust every night!
**SNORT** God said he'd teach me karate!
There's also tealock, which is the ethical sorlock optimization. You don't skip long rests, but you use a 4-hour sleep species to get 4 short rests in after you long rest, starting the day with a bunch of extra resources. It's best for high-level play with just 2 levels of Warlock, but a third level gives you a ton more sorcery points per level, so might be worth it especially since you can get an Imp familiar, or extremely useful ritual casting if your party doesn't have a wizard. Usually that amounts to 4 first-level spell slots, or later an extra 3rd and 2nd, or 4th and 1st. I played one before but only briefly, and I also DM'd for one in Lost Mines of Phandelver (just 5 levels). They loved it! I think it's medium-power but if you're not gunning for high-op, it's a really cool build that feels very different from the normal casters. It's more machine gun than bazooka, but not actually a terribly different amount of power. Skipping long rests probably should NOT be allowed, however.
Sleep and rest are mechanically different. A long rest requires 8 hours of down time, regardless of how much sleep is required. A human character actually only needs 6 hours of sleep in 5e.
@@blkgardner There are multiple races and lineages that gain the benefit of a full rest in 4 hours though. Including the rewording of trance in MMoM.
@@Jyggalag The general principle is that sleep and rest times are different. Also, the DM should generally rule against exploit-driven builds.
A variant of this, that I like more than the base of snorting variants, is what I see being called a "decaflock"
The base loop is the same, using short rests to generate more spell slots, but this one doesn't power through the exhaustion using anything.
Instead, it makes use of an Elf or Reborn's trait that allows for 4-hour long rests, usually giving enough time for 4 short rests every night while the other party members are still asleep.
While it doesn't go infinite, it doesn't suffer from ressource depletion from consecutive adventuring days, and the same concept can make for a quite effective skeleton/zombie army if the sorcerer levels are replaced by wizard or cleric ones ( though it comes online extremely late, at 10th-level ).
Warforged also works, but is half as effective.
I was going to comment this but didn’t know it was called Decaf lol
I’ve also seen it referred to as “tealock” by tabletop builds, though they don’t use elf/reborn and instead recommend spending a bit of time before starting the adventuring day to create a few extra slots/pre cast some spells for free
that's how I do it! My favorite character is a Reborn Hexblade 3 / Shadow Sorcerer 7 with the Witherbloom Student background. We read the Reborn's Deathless Nature to mean that I could go without long rests and sleep, so I take short rests to store mana like a living magical battery. I'm glad to hear it isn't optimal, because I have so much fun with it!
@@Chewythebigblackdog Weird, I would think that a 4 hour long rest means more short rest spam for more slots and free casts, why would they recommend an alternative?
Ranger level 1, Deft Explorer lower exhaustion on short rest, better starting weapon and armor skills, mariner fighting style, (shield master?)
Genie Lock level 10 - Sanctuary Vessel 10 minute short rest while transportable, pact of chain for invisible familiar to carry your vessel
Aberant Mind Sorc level 9 lower SP cost for spells without slots?
The dissonant whisper genie...
5:33 - While the "Going Without a Long Rest" rule _specifically_ says you make a Constitution Save or take a point of exhaustion after going for 24 hours without a long rest, the paragraph itself is in reference to sleep deprivation. It's entirely valid for the rule to be interpreted such that Aspect of the Moon prevents you from needing to make the Constitution Save. It seems to be a classic case of RAW vs RAI, whatever the RAI in this case may be.
You could theoretically interpret it that way, but that interpretation is very much not RAW. The rule in Xanathar's contextualizes the con save in terms of sleep deprivation, but the actual rule only references long rests, and never sleep.
In fact, in Zee Bashew's video on coffeelocks, he points out that Aspect of the Moon actually impedes the idea of the coffeelock RAW, because it says you don't have to sleep, but also that you gain the benefits of a long rest after 8 hours of light activity. So if you try to chain short rests while the rest of the party does a long rest, you end up getting the benefits of a long rest anyway, and reset your spell slots.
@@CivilWarMan This "theoretical" interpretation is the _most common_ interpretation of this rule I've seen. The major, and _most important,_ point is that if a DM decides that a character with the Invocation doesn't take exhaustion from this optional rule, then that's a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules, given how generally poorly a lot of D&D's rules are written, especially optional books like Xanathar's and Tasha's. Like, if you only use rules from the core books (PHB, DMG, and MM), you'll never take levels of exhaustion from not sleeping of long resting.
{EDIT: I thought this was a reply to someone else on another video, in which we're having the same discussion. Whoops. I removed the irrelevant parts.]
@@arcticbanana66 It may be a common interpretation, but my point is that it is an *interpretation,* not RAW, and arguing that it is RAW is misrepresenting what RAW means. RAW, sleep and rest are mechanically distinct, and Aspect of the Moon, as written, only removes the need to sleep, while the rule in Xanathar's, as written, references the CON save being triggered by a lack of rest, even if the paragraph before it references sleep in a non-mechanical context.
@@CivilWarMan I'm not arguing against the RAW, I'm simply stating that, due to how the rest of the paragraph around the rule is written, it's entirely plausible for it to be interpreted as a rule for _sleep,_ and not just Long Rest in general, even if the specific line of the specific rule says otherwise.
To add to that, the rule is literally in a chapter about about sleep. Arguing that it applies to races that don't need sleep when they cannot even experience sleep deprivation (that the rule is EXPLICITLY modeling) in the first place makes just as much sense as arguing that a race that does not need to breathe can drown. After all, the rule on drowning sets a strict limit on how long you can hold your breath before you start drowning that is tied to your CON. Who cares that a race that does not breathe at all would not fall subject to things reliant on how long you can hold the thing they don't have to do. The rule on drowning doesn't mention that, after all. Sometimes the book authors make the mistake of expecting people to use their brains.
Theres a another way...
THE BARISTA!
WarLock-Artificer alchemy subclass
Convert spells into potions and regain them on short rest to make more potions. Can long rest but select a race that needs 4 to 6 hours of sleep so you can determine how many "coffee's" you can serve in a single day.
Ah yes another video to argue with my friend about, don’t worry PT im on your side
So true!
Played one once upon a time. Its power depended upon your DM and how your group rested, infinite spells is basically meaningless if your group got to rest between every fight or every few fights. The strength of the build is being able to cast your "max" level spell over and over rather than casting lower slot "value" spells. Also it was kinda garbage at higher levels because you lose out at using higher level spells and abilities.
Not true.
Use spells like:
Aid (full party) , armor Of agathys, fire shield, death Ward (full party), freedom of movement (full party)
Skill empowetement with borrowed knowledge before any chek to get expertise.
And there is a lots of more. Like quicken always or twin spell everything.
💪
@@donatszabo8300 lots of spells you'd like to twin spell you can just upcast, especially since you have infinite spells, and others that would be great to twincast have subsequently been errata'd that you can't.
And yes, obviously you can and do cast other value spells, but you could ALWAYS cast value spells all the time anyways. The strength of the build is being able to cast whatever 3rd, 4th, or 5th spell that isn't concentration and has a high impact repeatedly, and metamagic everything (probably subtle most of the time). You can cast 15 fireballs in an adventure as opposed to a normal caster being able to cast 6-7, you can cast bestow curse at 5th level over and over, You can cast 5th level magic missiles over and over, you have unlimited counterspells, whatever.
@@jiiaga5017 so We can agree it very strong?
Twin cast in action economy is very good.
Like greater invisibility or heal. If you use cure wound in a combat you can heal yourself too
And then bonus action EB.
You can be support, have big ac because of hexblade, heal, have incredible down time, expert in any skill.
Its Just Stronger Than any normal class
@@donatszabo8300 I cast force cage, and then kill you. I cast wish, I cast...
I've played a ton of multiclass characters at this point. They have invariably been fun, but the sum of most of their parts usually hasn't outstripped just having the higher level spells to draw from, or higher level abilities. They are mid-level builds, or mid-to-low level builds. But at their core imho they really emphasize the problem with the "good at everything, master of nothing" approach. And the coffeelock is like the best example of this, especially since new rules interpretations further kneecapped it.
the picture for this video is so cute!
Thank you!
Idk if anyone else found this combo, but during one of the ranger revisions, there was a feature that let you recover a level of exhaustion on a short rest.
Couple that with Catnap, and you could rack up 48 short rests during everyone else's long rest, and if you subtract the slots needed for Catnap, you could still manage to acquire triple digit sorc points worth of spell slots every night, and you literally never need to wipe them with a long rest.
Thought about Catnap, but it works only once per long rest.
I think that Coffelocking is really best done when your team knows that it's going to fight. Like you take a quest to go kill bandits/a dragon. So for the trip you coffee up and just burn slots the whole dungeon. But the rest of the time you are just behaving as a normal caster.
It's really great to just have 50 5th level slots to burn through one dungeon, but it's just not worth it to sit on them for days on end waiting for something to happen.
Excess downtime is just a thing in a lot of campaigns. You can always have
I actually thoroughly remember when this build was pioneered. I was absolutely one of the goobers who tried to optimize this build for DPS by casting Eldritch Blast with repelling blast to knock enemies upward so they would then take fall damage. It was actually through playing this way that I had learned that DnD is much more of a tactical game than a strategical one anymore. Like chess, but with numbers and on easy mode.
I love how, even though it's inefficient, you still gave a shout out to the old school "BUT I CAN ELDRITCH BLAST 4716472 TIMES IN A SINGLE TURN!!!" builds. Those were the days. XD
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
I’ve got an undying warlock right now (wanted the challenge), and while I haven’t really been looking to play a coffeelock, I can’t help but notice the synergy. Hit level ten and no longer need to long rest. Then spam short rests when everyone else is long resting, use those pact slots to cycle through spell points and chip in for some deathward stacking as well.
I don’t consider it worth everything that would need to be sacrificed for the build, but it’s still pretty funny to think about.
6:44 I was wondering if you would mention the Cokelock or not and just like the real drug, this one is going to cost you.
why?
@@Raghetiel
no like, LITERALLY cost you. Diamond dust costs MONEY.
BG3 with unlimited short rests mod lets you have unlimited sorcery points, you just never get to keep non-warlock spell slots of your warlock slot level because there's no option to use your warlock slots for that before your other slots.
Also, divine soul sorcerer doesn't depend on long rests for HP but they have long rest features that they can't use.
Tasha's offers some optional rules for classes, one of the those for Rangers is Deft which at 10th level gives you something called Tireless. Tireless gives you some temp hp but also at the end it mentions that after you finish a short rest your exhaustion is reduced by 1.
I do agree that Coffeelock's are not that overpowered. Sure, the way that it worked was to get infinite spell slots, but this build locks you out of higher-level slots than you would a straight Sorcerer since you are not playing two classes with the spellcasting feature. Even though I rule it in my games that if you don't need sleep from features like Aspect of the Moon, I would ignore the saving throw required if you didn't take a long rest. I think it is dumb to still need a long rest even if you don't need sleep because there are no monsters I know of that put anyone to sleep, making features like those mechanically useless.
Even with all of these rules, I put in my games, it still doesn't make Coffeelocks that strong since Paladins can deal more damage than Coffeelocks could at that level.
I've done a lot of theory crafting for coffeelocks, and honestly, I don't think I've ever heard a convincing reason that you should be forced to long rest or receive exhaustion for what is defined in the optional rule as "sleep deprivation" if you have a feature that states that you don't require sleep. There's mechanics for receiving exhaustion through other means, traveling too long in a day, extreme temperatures, food and hydration, and afflictions granted by enemies, both exhaustion and debuffs that don't leave until you long rest, and those and others are compelling challenges to face a coffeelock with. But I think the primary problem most people have with the build isn't the rules interpretation, its balance at lower levels, which is a conversation to have with your DM if it really bothers them. Also, while scrolls are a noteworthy factor, there are a handful of things that you can do with spell slots that you can't do with spells, so the build still has fun implications. Like for instance, fueling something like hound of ill omen and amassing an army of dire wolves. I think health, higher level spell slots/long rest resources and debuffs unrelated to sleep are all interesting factors in the coffeelock math, because it has you weighing benefits. And the build centers on finding ways to create resources and sink them into things in a way that feels like a love letter to MtG, which I really enjoy.
Also, thank you for making this and engaging with the concept in good faith!
If you ignore that the actual text of the rule says nothing about sleep and only cares about long rests then sure
@@40Found The rule in XGtE specifically mentions sleep, sleep deprivation, and the first line is "A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences." Not to mention, features like aspect of the moon would have no reason to exist if they had no implications.
@@catharsis9226 "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion." The rules text doesn't care about sleep it cares about long rests.
@@40Found Read the two sentences before that.
"A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences. If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules."
You could argue that this is just flavor, but I'd argue that its important context to rules as intended. It's directly tied to sleep and sleep deprivation. If this upsets you, maybe you should impose limitations or just disallow coffeelocks at your table.
@@catharsis9226 coffelock isn't strong enough to ban even with your reading. This wouldn't be the first time WotC said they made a rule for something that made no sense for that thing. They can put as much text as they want in there declaring that a rule accomplishes X goal, but that doesn't matter if the rule doesn't actually do that thing. The rule does what it says, not what they say they wanted it to do. If you want to homebrew it to actually care about sleep instead that's fine.
Great video boss. I never really thought about it vs scroll scribing.
I think my character was Super optimized! As a cocolock
Hexblade warlock gave me shield, médium armor
Infinity slots gave me and my party always:
Freedom of movement
Death ward
For me: armor Of agathys (5th lvl, if in combat it would taken down, Just fast cast it with sorcerer point bonus action and can still shot EB)
Aid at fifth lvl
Fire shield
Guidence
Every combat start with hexblade curse+ twin casting greater invisibility to me and to a friend.
Staff of power, shield spell, shield+3 half plate +3 =
32 AC
Twin cast heal! Or bonus action cast heal, or each át the same time
Sorcerer no component meta magic means counter spell that cant be counterspelled.
Imp familiar becuase of warlock (give him death Wardand Aid)
Always can throw fifth lvl fireballs, then shot some Elderich blasts like a sorlock.
I used inifity spell slots to get 2 spells. With prep time i can be expert in any skill.
Skill empowetement and borrowed knowledge!
Sorcerer from Tasha can reroll ability cheks that failed for a sorcerer point (counter spell or any skill chek)
Lucky to get most advantage
Elf give you elven accuracy, use that with greater invisibility to gain 3 advantage on an enemy with hexblade curse on. (19 is a crit)
This character was a beast!
My favorite twist on Coffeelock is to mix it with Paladin.
1-2: 2 Paladin
3-5: 3 Sorcerer (Quicken/Twin Booming Blade to comp lack of extra attack)
6: 1 Warlock
7: 4 Sorcerer (To get an extra sorc Point and Feat, the added point makes a difference on round 2)
8-11: 5 Warlock (Thirsting Blade; also times nicely for when more traditional martials get a bump)
Delays on 'proper' extra attack hurts, but quicken/twin & Divine Smite makes up for it.
And with your resources, you can blow past baseline damage by spamming smites.
I like this concept...
Ranger level 1, Deft Explorer lower exhaustion on short rest, better starting weapon and armor skills, mariner fighting style, (shield master?)
Genie Lock level 10 - Sanctuary Vessel 10 minute short rest while transportable, pact of chain for invisible familiar to carry your vessel
Aberant Mind Sorc level 9 lower SP cost for spells without slots?
The dissonant whisper genie...
A ten minute short rest could load a party up on low level 1 hour no concentration buffs...
@@jamestaylor3805 deft explorer does not lower exhaustion on short rests on level 1, it takes 10 levels in ranger
@@Mikhanius yeah, ive noticed that. But now this idea...
Fairy
Ranger 10 Feywanderer
Beguiling Twist and Cha skills
Lock 10 Genie
@@jamestaylor3805 this is not even a coffeelock at that point. What does warlock with no sorc levels even gain from not taking long rests?
Celestial Warlock also gets Greater Restoration.
I played lots of Call of Cthulhu in the early 2010s as well. We had a 6 year long CoC campaign in high school
Great job! Totally agree
I think the best use of the coffeelock is if you're ever in a campaign where you have like 3 days to prep for a major battle or mission, make as many first level spell slots and scrolls as you can. Use all the extra spell slots to cast shield
I like playing front line style characters, and i really enjoy mashing classes together that aren't really supposed to be frontline fighters and making them work really well.
A good example of this is the celestial lock and dragon sorc. At 6th level, both get damage bonuses to equal the cha to fire spells. Start spamming green flame blade after that. Get polearm mastery, and warcaster, use a pike or some polearm with reach, and now you can spam GFB 3x a round. (You can use quicken spell to cast GFB a 2nd time on your turn, 3rd time is from OOO.)
Idk man, I kind of think you are looking at it wrong.
Like you said, the limitations of needing to split levels in each class for sorc points and pact slot level makes it so you end with lots of lower level slots. Even if you have a bunch of slots you still only have 1 action in combat to use them and your party is going to long rest at the same rate as usual so it ends up being pretty lackluster.
Where the extra slots are actually good to the point it might be OP is when they are used spam metamagics, reaction spells, and magical guidance. Being able to use some combo of twin, quicken with empower on top along with reactions like counterspell, shield, silverybarbs, and getting to reroll any checks which inculds initives. If you use the extra slots to just refill your sorcery points after combat the amount of extra action economy you can get is pretty nuts and allows for some fun combos.
Blast enemies into position then quicken web, or empower fireball, or any good aoe cc or damage.
I know you don't like EB+hex but when vs a boss or anything single target that is going to last a few rounds, wiith quicken spell its pretty nasty. At level 11 it's more average damage than disintegrate
The problem with this whole is that it requires the DM to buy in and do math for down time that is mostly just handwaved/or montaged so one person can try to abuse a super cheesey mechanic that was never intended. The good news is that the build is actually still pretty good/fun even if you don't try to cheese the longrest mechanic.
My thoughts on it are that if you notice the combo, it's got a pretty high power floor that only gets shut down if the DM looks at rules they aren't expected to know (in my limited experience, Xanathar's is more of a book of player options and rules for players to suggest to DMs than it is a book of optional rules for DMs to incorporate).
In low-optimisation games, particularly those with new DMs, this is the sort of build that one person can stumble upon that makes everyone else feel bad and causes the DM to add in horrendous house rules to shut it down.
In mid-optimisation games it's probably fine, but can be more taxing on campaign pacing and it feels dirty.
In high-optimisation games it's irrelevant.
It's the sort of B-tier build that needs to be nerfed out of existence because it's not a good experience for anyone.
It's pretty good for highlighting fundamental flaws with game balance though. If infinite spell slots isn't overpowered, what does that indicate about the state of the game and the use of spell slots as a balancing factor at all?
Dont really need to house rule anything. "Hey man, your build is kinda wildly broken for this campaign, Id like you to change it."
Communication and all
@@venerablepoof I think new DMs aren't generally in a position to be shutting down builds like that.
A lot of the 'overpowered' builds they encounter will just be a misunderstanding of the rules (like Quickened Spell giving someone 2 spells every turn), things that aren't actually that strong but give off overpowered vibes (like a Lucky Divination Wizard, Soradin or Flurry of Stunning Strikes) or just baseline facts of the game that don't gel with the games they're trying to run (like any full caster in a 5-minute-adventuring-day game, Druids in a wilderness-survival game or literally anything vs a solo monster).
I don't think new DMs should have to soft-ban or houserule any builds because most of their decisions will be bad kneejerk reactions to someone rolling hot or having the perfect solution to their special boss they'd been building up.
I'd much rather the truly overpowered or bad-experience-for-everyone options (like coffeelock) were just removed or shoved into the DMG with a big disclaimer (specifically thinking of those spells with multiple paragraphs of jank like Magic Jar).
For more experienced DMs, sure, a "hey, can you not?" is fine.
Part of the coffee lock theory that was just bad player behavior was assuming that since they didn't take a long rest that they could take 8 consecutive short rests. They also assumed any non-combat phase was a short rest, leading to 10-20 short rests per day.
*snort*
"God taught me kung fu!"
Qickened fireball! Twinned Firebolt!
Hey, 3 levels dip of divine sorcerer for a warlock is already worth it even without coffeelocking. Shield, Healing Word, Aid. Extra cantrips. Metamagic. A few slots for a casual Hex even. And then coffeelocking is an option!
Yea, my first Warlock that dipped Sorc did it for that kind of synergy. I didn't know coffeelock existed until I was accused of going for that :P
Then I looked into it to see what the big deal was. Wasn't then (and I'm not now) convinced it's worth the convoluted actions required, including the extra bookkeeping.
Counterpoint, you forgot the dip into Paladin for smites. I've got a high level enemy ready to fight a party who is forced to Coffeelock by their patron and hasn't slept in years. Every single attack they make with their Hexblade includes a 5th level smite. With two weapons, this is 3 attacks per turn (thirsting blade invocation) with virtually unlimited smites. Ideally, the party doesn't kill him, but frees him from his patron, though this would allow him to sleep and greatly depower him
Why dip paladin when you could just take Eldritch Smite?
@@DaraelDraconisI took it WITH eldritch smite so I could smite while I smite while I smite! It's an NPC designed to be defeated out of combat (by tricking him into a long rest to reset his spell slots) before you approach him in combat
The only way I'd use any part of that concept is short rest recovery of 1st level slots for casting shield
And I wouldn't want to hassle my DM by getting more spell slots than I was supposed to have
@@chris-the-human The one time I used it was the other way around, to convert spell slots into spell points. As I was playing Reborn (so 4 hour long rests) at the 8th hour of long rest for the rest of my team I could cast Death Ward with extended spell duration metemagic and then short rested for an hour to regain the spell slots used for the spell and conversion. That way I had Death Ward for most pretty much the entire adventuring day (it fit the theme of my character) and I still had all warlock slots up. And neither me nor the DM had to bother tracking infinite spell slots.
The Warlock spell slots are so limited the coffeelock only makes sense to me for the Genie Warlock with the ten minute short rest in it's vessel while the party carries them around. For the early game it's 2 or 4 extra sorcery points... losing 2 spells to cast one. Mid game it can become beneficial if you're focused on no concentration buffing spells for party members while traveling. As a high level multi class here, congrats, you can add a bit more pop into a couple of mid level spells and that's the big win for the class.
The effect of Coffeelock is astonishingly similar the OG 3.5 Warlock. They could cast their spell-like invocations at-will, but the power of their 'spells' lagged way behind the other full casters and ultimately it was the action economy that checked their power instead of limited spell slots. Don't get me wrong, I loved 3.5 warlocks, but they weren't OP and neither are coffeelocks.
I actually play a sorc / warlock multiclass and you're totally right. I occasionally can use the warlock stuff to regen spell slots a little bit. But it's so inefficient that in typical adventuring situations it's mostly useless. The strengths of the build are more, Out of Combat I can use spell slots a bit more recklessly without fear of not having them during a big fight & in a dungeon crawl I have access to Hex + EB as well as EB, quicken spell EB.
Armor of Agathys + Fire Shield + Shadow of Moil
Misty Step every turn while you EB
Have a Shield/Absorb Elements/Counterspell ready as a reaction at all times.
Yeah... it's a powerhouse.
I just use a ring of sustainence, which removes the need of eating/drinking AND turns the need of a long rest into a short rest.
It basically turns it to a powernap.
One of my absolute favorite magical items.
I played a Coffeelock for several campaigns and one-shots online.
My take: they are only strong against single targets. You spend so much time on low level spell slots like Silvery Barbs and Shield, you do not get access to the higher level stuff to take on hordes. You will be the lowest DPR of the entire party every time, and therefore will be more effective taking a supportive role.
My most effective combo of subclasses: Divine Soul Sorcerer and Undead Warlock. You had healing, support (Guiding Bolt), control, and fear.
One campaign had the other players averaging 45 damage per round, while I was stuck with up to 30 damage if I used sorcery points to Quicken a spell before Eldritch Blast. I was great at handling a single target, but was easily swarmed and forced to expend resources I couldn’t always afford.
We were facing the BBEG in the final fight. He first summoned a giant divine golem to fight us, which Hold Person wouldn’t work on. So I instead turned off its Crits with Silvery Barbs and gave the advantage to our Paladin, who got a Crit against it once.
After that, the BBEG summoned a bunch of minions and a Caster to finish us off, while a ritual column of divine flames behind him was an alternate win condition: push him in. I cast Hold Person on the Caster and BBEG, Silvery Barb’d the BBEG to fail, and told the tanks to push him in while I held off the Caster’s spells.
The party was one push away from the column when the Caster made me lose concentration. But the party was smart and pushed diagonally for the final one, lining him up for my Repelling Blast.
The DM told us afterwards that the BBEG was powerful enough to resist the pushes normally, and could even take us out with his own OP spells. But because he didn’t have Legendary Resistance, my singular Hold Person and uncontested Repelling Blast likely saved the party.
Another note: you can’t recover hit dice by Coffeelocking. So the Healer Feat is a prerequisite.
You should have some healing spell or a lifeberry friend@@LocalMaple
At my table, a rest of any sort (outside of a town) has a chance for a random encounter (typically 3 chances for a long rest), which can disrupt (prevent) the rest. Other than that, you can try for as many as you'd like ;) Of course, if you're the only one trying to take 8 short rests to everyone else's 1 long rest, the rest of the party might resent you . . .
(The chance is based on location, not type of rest.)
I've specifically got coffee lock in my character as I was originally playing a paladin/warlock before and I really wanted the alter self spell so i went sorcerer and thought it would be worth making use of the coffee lock abilities while I was at it
I was surprised the Warlock invocation Aspect of the Moon wasn't mentioned. It does require Pact of the Tome so minimum 3 levels of Warlock, but then you strait up don't need to sleep. You still can effectively take a long rest, which would reset spell slots, but you don't have to so there's no need to snort diamond dust. Of course, burning a precious invocation on it is pretty suboptimal, but it's a choice.
Rest and sleep are mechanically different, aspect of the moon allows you to stay alert through a long rest, it does not remove the penalties for not taking one
@@kekkres RAW yes and no. Though the rule also justifies it by tying it to sleep deprivation. So if the basis for the rule is null and void should we honor the rule? That's a question for DM interpretation and I'd say either interpretation is justified. Personally I probably wouldn't apply the Xanathar's rule if there is no sleep deprivation. The first two sentences justify the rule by only talking about sleep and long rest is only mentioned in the mechanical text. I would say as written this rule doesn't fit it's intention according to the text. But should the first two sentences be considered merely flavor text and ignored or does it inform when to use the rule and when not to, which is entirely within the DM's purview. *shrug* Mileage will vary.
It's still a poor use of an entire invocation, even if you rule in the player's favor on exhaustion, and if you don't then it's an objectively awful invocation and basically just a trap. I wouldn't want my player to feel like the game baited them into wasting a class feature on nothing, though you could always allow them to change it.
The vid does mention it at 3:47 . Also you can get the exact same effect from being Warforged, Reborn, or any flavor of Elf. Any character who does not require sleep, would therefore not suffer from sleep deprivation. The original Elf uses really ambiguous language, but all the later ones - Eladrin, Sea Elf, etc. - use the exact same language as the Warforged, "You don't need to sleep ..."
warforged supremacy (we don't need to sleep)
but you DO get tired... hehehe... Exhaustion check! Roll CON!
@arifhossain9751 screw you no I don't , that's like saying your written class features and flavor are pointless(yes I get the joke)
Yup. Sentry’s Rest is needed but they get to be fully aware of their surroundings just at the cost of them being immobile for 6 hours to get the benefits of a Long Rest.
@blackbeltgamer98fire-spitt96 genuine question, but if I'm still forced to rest, then what is the actual purpose of having that feature, being immune to sleep spells?
@@williamwashburn7665 yes, you may not need to sleep and technically don’t sleep but being able to bypass long rests is a huge imbalance for DnD 5e. Plus, technically Magic cannot make you fall asleep as a Warforged and, depending on your DM, there are still ways to force ‘sleep’ by non-magical potions (basically drugging) but those would probably still be considered poisons and a Warforged would have advantage on the save but, even with jacked modifiers on the save, you can still roll poorly.
Overall, it’s meant as a means of balancing out the Warforged’s abilities. Plus, think of it like a computer or any machine, really: if you leave it running perpetually with no significant breaks, it will overheat and break down rapidly but if you let the device ‘rest’ for a significant period of time, you may be able to actually make it last a lot longer. Same with Warforged, they can still function without taking long rests but that comes at the cost of sustained strain on their bodies and the rapidly increasing risk of something vital shutting down not unlike all the organic races in the game: push your body too far, and it will likely break irreparably and even fatally.
The coffeelock... a great multiclass option that gives you "infinite" level one spell slots to waste on hex.
Here's a new twist. Get 13 CHA and 13 WIS on a high DEX character, take 2 levels of Sorcerer, then 2 or three levels of Warlock, then put the rest of your levels in Ranger. You now have infinite castings of Hunter's Mark at a level when you should never be casting Hunter's Mark ever for any reason.
Should we call it the Moonshinelock or the MethGatorlock?
I use my massive SS pool to cast double EB whenever I want single target damage, and then Silvery barb, Misty step, counterspell or twincast haste. Also having the ability to just burn a Enhance ability, other non combat buff or to full heal my party for whatever dumb thing I feel like whitout caring much is very fun.
you can coffeelock with the Eldritch invocation that makes it so you don't need long rests
I wasn’t convinced until I did the math and yeah, until you get greater restoration every level of Warlock delays your spell progression for an incredibly minor gain in total number of spell slots. Theoretically, you can make a ton of slots if you don’t ever long rest but even with a Divine Soul Sorcerer you can’t reliably evade exhaustion for more than 2 or 3 days so you have to plan a big adventuring day several days out if you want to take full advantage of the build, that’s just not realistic. In practice you’ll most likely be an elf who gets 4 extra short rests at the start of the day to build up a small surplus of low level slots. A Sorcerer 2 Warlock 1 can potentially gain 4 extra Sorcerery points this way which translates to 2 first level spell slots plus a floating Pact Magic slot for 3 + 1 per short rest. A third level Sorcerer gains 1 first level spell slot and 2 second level spell slots in addition to Meta Magic and an additional Sorcery Point, straight classing is just better at this level. If you keep leveling in Sorcerer you have a few levels where the Sorlock has a few extra slots but they’re never the high value spells that you want to be relying on, it’s an extra use of Shield. Taking an extra level of Warlock seems tempting since it’s double your pool of bonus Sorcery Points but that’s actually a terrible idea since it puts you even further behind the spell slot curve and makes you more likely to end up with fewer total spell slots than a straight class Sorcerer since advancing an spell slot level usually comes with multiple new spell slots to play with. If you wanted to play a Sorlock your best bet would be starting in Divine Soul and straight classing until level 9 where you can learn greater Restoration and only then take 1-3 Warlock levels to immediately swivel into a Cokelock. This isn’t great since you’ll burn your higher level spells faster than you can regenerate them if you swear off sleep completely but it’s the least bad way to be a Sorlock.
My Traveling Nurse Joy NPC: Hospitality Halfling, DS Sorlock celestial, life cleric. Spells: Goodberry, Aid, life transference, Heroes Feast, Aura of Vitality, Beacon of Hope, Glyph of Warding, tiny hut, word of recall, magnificent mansion. Sorcery meta: Extend, Quicken, subtle. Warlock Chain imp. Healer, inspiring leader, Tough.
Glad to hear someone explaining why its not that op as opposed to someone whining about it.
Rather than the infinite spell slots, I personally think for Sorlock builds their only redeeming quality is the EB spam which is good for **Single** boss fights if the creature you're fighting is rolling hot over shutdown spells. We've all had that problem where all the damn monsters save against your control spell, or it ends up being useless. Like for example, when you're fighting a dragon as a full caster, most of the time your options aren't going to be great. Legendaries shut down what really useful saves you can inflict, but legendaries being reduced to 0 is pointless if you are the only one inflicting saves (only spellcaster, no monks, etc). If the creature's saves are high, AOE spells will still kinda do damage, but if there's no minions then its just that one roll of damage. Short of Evocation Wizard magic missile spam, there isn't reliable low resource damage options for most full casters. The only really useful thing you can do in those kinds of fights is support, like dimension door or vortex warp a melee martial into range, bless, twin haste, whatever.
But at that point, if you're building to make a lotta attacks and deal damage, its usually more optimal to build martial.
Xanathars sleep rules: Exist
Elves and warforged: I don't (technically) feel so good Mr. Stark.
Aspect of the Moon, meanwhile, continues unabated. 5e doesn't distinguish rules from flavour, so the "going without sleep" part is still tied to the rules. But AotM tomelocks don't _need_ sleep _or_ an equivalent, and so should be immune.
I played a coffeelock as a as a necromancer by using animate dead as a divine soul sorcerer. Turns out, you can make a LOT of skeleton archers by having near limitless spell slots
What if the coffee lock says that during your parties long rest he instead short rests 8 times and turns his warlock slots into sorcerer ones that whole time.
This would theoretically mean that each long rest your party takes PERMANENTLY buffs your coffeelock.
Maybe I’m just being dumb but it seems like this is strong somehow.
Thankfully the optional rule about exhaustion specifically references the context of sleep deprivation, so aspect of the moon invalidates it.
I was thinking about making a Sorcerer/Warlock multiclass. Not to make a coffeelock, but to combine the Shadow sorcerer with the Infernal patron and make the ultimate offensive tank caster.
It can work? Idunno
For sure, there are other reasons to make a sorlock! And, maybe, sometimes take advantage of the coffeelock mechanic. BUT, I can't justify making a coffeelock for its own sake.
lost to time. I have a campaign with one presently.
What's really funny is that I gave the warlock a luck blade with one wish as a get out of jail free card because they were fighting a god. He bluffed his way through the god encounter and kept the blade for later. He eventually used it to create a simulacrum of the coffee lock.
It's still around!!!!
You want diamond dust to power your 5th level spells? Get you some nice, cheap coal and use Fabricate.
A cokelock with his own production means? I'll allow it, but there are consequences at my table for Breaking Bad.
If you are able to fit in 5 levels of College of Creation Bard into the build, you can also use Performance of Creation to create the diamond from nothing. It's actually more efficient than Fabricate, since it a) requires no materials, and b) is usable for free once per long rest, then only requires a 2nd level slot to reuse, as opposed to a 4th level slot for Fabricate.
by 20th level you can get like 20 5th level spell slots in the time your allys take a long rest so it could be fun for spaming fireballs or somthing of that nature
As much as I loathe optimization and "builds", I have been coming around to the idea that maybe whole national armies would be composed of "builds" and that maybe I should learn what the hell they are.
That's the spirit! Personally I think optimization, or really just "playing with power" is a useful exercise for everyone. Just because you're optimized doesn't mean you can't also roleplay, and in fact it could literally mean that one person in the group is the senior-most combatant of the group narratively while everyone is the same level mechanically.
Not to mention that when people optimize the DM is able to throw more deadly encounters sooner. Thinking of "Builds" more in terms of overall fighting styles for combat purposes is also a really nice touch.
I don't disagree with this at all. That being said I am playing a Runechild/Hexblade in a game right now built around using the Pact Slots being used for more metamagic uses and then in turn getting more Essence Runes to reduce incoming damage on my AoA. I also am running it as an Earth Genasi. So the build allows for immense damage reduction, returned damage, high AC with shield when needed and still has strong spell options. It has gone pretty well so far with the rest of my party being big damage dealers and I really like being a tank gish while having better than half caster progression. Only level 6 right now but we will see if it holds up.
I like the solution of saying Pact magic (and only Pact magic) is not capable of fueling any other class ability. Doesn't hurt Sorcadins, and isn't a significant harm to Padlocks.
My time as a Coffeelock has been very silly as it is a high-level game. Having 12 mass Cure Wounds, and a being able to Twin cast Haste on the tank and Melee DPS is very fun as a support bot. And that’s not to say I only support as I have 5th level Guiding Bolts to give free Advantage on the first it to the hasted Barbarian.
Edit: Then again, I was playing high level support caster so my slots were going out like crazy.
I always though sleeping and long resting were 2 separate things, with is why this build worked in the first place. You only gain exhaustion by not sleeping when you should and long rest is beneficial cuz you can recover resources, including hit dice and reducing levels of exhaustion... I don't remember the fact you don't take long rests getting you exhaustion ever coming up in a game I played...
Thi video really did catch me by suprise
I much prefer the melatonin lock. You show up to play with a big red button that says “I begin taking a short rest” when pressed. And you press that thing every time there is the slightest lull. A surprising amount of adventuring is light activity. Before the final body hits the ground, short rest. Walking around town talking to merchants, short rest. Just finished a short rest, short rest. 32 max level eldrich smites per day is nothing to sneeze at.
A 9th level dao dijin lock can produce and shape enough stone to create a modest sized medial castle out of thin air in a day.
I mean... the caffeine addiction comes in levels. Sorlock is still a very powerful multiclass; one of the strongest even. Have a few days of down time before your party sets out on what you know will culminate in a big fight? Why not go into that with some extra spell slots? Also, there's nothing stopping you from using all that extra time you're not resting, to craft spell scrolls. I still wouldn't take more than 1-3 levels of Warlock though. Between taking eldritch adept for an invocation or Metamagic adept for more sorc points (and thus a bigger reservoir of points to turn into slots).
Metamagic Adept explicitly limits what you can use those SP on so no spell slots from those points :(
@@urdaanglospey6666 ahhh, fair point. Definitely forgot that issue.
Coffee lock is great. If you get a lot of diamonds and you know you’re about to be fighting a big guy and a couple days.
Good lord, snorting diamond dust. That actually killed me. Thats something kingpins dream of doing.
I could see myself doing this if I was a sorcerer and the dm says you level up and you will have a year of downtime.
The snorting Coca Cola would be quite funny to me and also given how 98% of the time during downtime could be considered a short rest you’d rock up with several thousand 5th level spell slots.
I remember people arguing over coffeelock. Wow, it was a while ago.
Coffee lock in a setting with a tone of fights in a short time (ie not long resting every fight) is pretty good. Dungeon crawling with 120% of your spells available means you can blow spells like no tomorrow if you convince someone in the party to carry you so you can be continuously sleeping (maybe you live in a bag of holding). But if you start getting into cocain lock you’ve gone too far, and it’d be boring to have a character “sleeping” all the time and not participating. Still though you don’t have to optimize your fireball placement when you get to cast it twice as much as a wizard at the same level. I also think it’s a little silly to say “I short rest for 24 hours a day for 7 days so I have 732 sorcery points” and then convert that into 146 3rd level slots (5 sorcerer 3 warlock). Who uses that many slots? If during an adventuring day you had 10 combats with 10 rounds each and you cast fireball every round and shield every round you would run out, but if you have 5 encounters with 4 rounds each (still a lot) you only need like 12 slots (24 if you cast shield every round). So I think it’s dorky to charge it for days on end when 1 day is enough.
My take is that Warlock/Sorcerer is quite a good multiclass without any coffelocking or decaflocking or whatever.
If a player I was DMing asked if they could coffeelock, I'd probably just say no. I mean, okay, fine, if I saw it in action they only ever cast hex, yeah, I probably wouldn't care. Feel free to cast Hex as many times as you want. But if they actually used it intelligently, used an actually good concentration spell, and then spammed Tasha's Mind Whip upcasted out of 5th level slots every turn? Yeah, I probably wouldn't allow that.
Depending on DM, scrolls have carry weight. 40lb per cubic foot (as scrolls are made of paper). That's ignoring the fact that scrolls, as per the chart you are showing, are actually more expensive and require more in-game time than just using the diamond dust. A single second-level scroll is over twice the price of a restoration spell and requires 3 in-game days to scribe. A fifth-level scroll, the same as the max for sorcery point conversion, requires 50 times the gold and 4 workweeks.
I understand there are advantages to scrolls, but the price on any significant number of scrolls would give a 3.5 character pause.
I prefer coffee alchemist. 3 Alchemist X Warlock. Be a race that finishes a long rest faster or aspect of the moon invocation. Spend long rest regaining spell slots and making elixers. Get 10+ elixers at start of adventuring day
Is that a Kobold ina Great Kilt, with bagpipes in the background? SUBSCRIBE!
Thank you! I play those bagpipes in RL!
@@PackTactics A person of many talents! Respect!
The idea of a wwarlock snorting crack cocanius to stave off exhaustion is living rent free in my head now lol
But... but I like the diamond dust! Gimme moooore!
Will you ever get around to doing Shapechange?
Yes, this video earned you my sub.
YES! Thank you! 🐊
UA-cam Algorithm, I don't know why you decided I needed this video, but I like it. Thank you.
I was in a funny mood.
you also forgot the ranger coffee lock with tireless from deft explorer every short rest recovers spell slots and 1 level of exhaustion. comes online rather late at level 13 but once active theres like no down sides run sorcerer out to level 7 and warlock out to 3 for pact magic and voila.
I just noticed that the feature that lets you create spell slots doesn't have a limitation based on your current spell-levels you have access to. So a 7th level Sorcerer can create 5th level spell slots with that, even though they normally need to be level 9 for 5th level slots.
...I have no idea what to do with this information, or if it's even useful.
It lets you learn 5th level spells when you level up at level 8.
Before Xanatar sleeping and Long resting was separate things just real long rest rules (Page 187 PHB).
Sleep is part of requirements for Long rest so you can roleplay sleep and not finish Long rests.
Whit Xanatar rules even if you sleep 6 hours you get level of exhaustion because you not finished long rest.
Xanathar's provides rules "... to account for the effects of sleep deprivation", just like the PHB provides rules to account for Suffocating or starving. If a character doesn't need sleep, they won't suffer from sleep deprivation, just like a character who doesn't need to breathe won't suffocate.
As someone who has played a c-lock it's not very powerful. It's nice to basically not track my low level spells but by the time I can go infinite I'm just wishing I had higher level spells to mess with or more sorcery points to work with. Now I intentionally play a non- optimized c-lock because it's at a first-time GMs table so maybe that is why but most of the time, my infinite spell slots are out of combat fun, not in combat power.
What's your opinion on this? I've always thought the rule on exhaustion/long rests just flat out shouldn't apply to something that doesn't need sleep. The rule says pretty plainly that it is only to be used to "account for the effects of sleep deprivation".
Explain how a character that doesn't need to sleep still somehow suffers from sleep deprivation?
Basically, the rule doesn't apply if you don't need to sleep, because it's supposed to mimic the effects of a lack of sleep...
These sounds like perfect villain builds. the players feel like it's unfair but overcome because of lack of optimization.
I like this build mostly to get extra sorcery points
Maybe?
You being a good bean isn't in doubt though.
I built it by accident and just agreed to use it 1x a morning as a warforged, and maybe get short rests later a day as party did.
I play a coffee-lock and it's definitely not optimized since I treat it more like restoring rather than creating infinite spell slots. It does get better when you end up with a ring of spell storing so that it's easier to store those spells that will be lost
Everything in Xanathar's is optional. Throwing out the cost, I'd say it is certainly OP.
The coffeelock ignores the simple understanding that a normal human must rest every night. Sure, you can delay resting for a while, but you eventually have to rest. The rules left it up to the DM and didn't make it a strict limitation, leaving it up to a ruling. Players abuse DM's by saying it's not in the rules that I must long rest, so I can do it. That's the rub.
It's especially OP when combined with paladin's smite.
I always focused more on recharging the sorcery points than creating more spell slots. Metamagic is GOATed and I'd rather have more options like twin casting or subtle spelling than just more casting of the same unchanging spell.
My table runs Slow Natural Healing (you spend hit dice to recover hp on long rests) with the house rule of you must spend at least 1 hit dice to take a short rest.
From there I let players abuse short rest recharges as much as they like
Players can still stockpile power as a coffeelock if they want
But it's stopped from going too overboard
I keep hearing how broken it is.
It really is incredibly situational. I dabbled in it a bit (not very minmaxed), and you know how many times I ran out of my regular spell slots? 0. 0 times. It literally never mattered.
Finally, I always wanted you to talk about the coffeelock, we eat good today
There's a reason why BG3 had a limit of 2 Short Rests per Long Rest.
It's as though the game designers forgot there is a unit of time called a "day" that generally governs sleep and other factors in recovery.
I joined dnd way laye into 5e only like within the oast year but ive been enjoying the community ever since