Are EVs a Fad? And what's a better option?
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- Many people are thinking we’ll all own an electric vehicle in 10 years time, but I’m not so sure. I believe there’s a better solution than EVs, at least for the foreseeable future, and it’s not fuel cells. It’s more practical, and it’ll help save the planet. But I’m happy to be convinced otherwise, so I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Hopefully we’ll all learn something. So, are EVs a fad?
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Sources:
www.best-selling-cars.com/int...
www.iea.org/news/demand-for-e...
electrek.co/2023/01/02/norway...
www.autopacific.com/autopacif...
www.gov.uk/government/news/go...
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UPDATE - I went out to look at buying a Plug-in hybrid today (in Seattle, USA). Volvo don't have any in stock with long waiting lists. ICE or EVs are OK to buy today. Lexus don't even sell the NX Plug-in hybrid in my state. Plug-in hybrids might be the thing to buy... if you could buy them!
Wait! You live in seattle? Dude I thought you lived in the uk. 🤣
Stellantis claim to sell the Alfa Romeo Tonale in the states if you are daring enough.
I had to wait 12 months for my XC60 and had similar issues getting a test drive ended up having to go to the other end of the UK to get a test drive, but have to say very happy with it, its a real sleeper car, looks very plane really but goes like a race car :-).
@@MatteoSaitta
Stay away from Stellantis….
It a rolling pile of junk!
Volvos are excellent plugins if you can charge it at night, but they don't have any fast charge options for them (not at least any I would know)
One thing I wanted to mention is that most plugins are AWD which can be an essential thing for some customers
If we really cared for the environment we would be making products that last 20 years or more.
If you buy a Honda or Toyota and maintain it, it does last 20 years.
I completely agree - I’d love a car manufacturer to step up with a well-made, good quality, relatively simple car that can easily be repaired and updated, and that will last at least 20 yrs with regular maintenance. Something like a modern day version of the Volvo 240 would do.
Very true. I have Chevrolet Volt in the UK. No 20 but 10 year sold with 106k miles on it. Still getting better than quoted range. Shoul have it for at least another 5 years. Paid its dues in carbon I reckon.
agreed. we changed tires yesterday and my 20 year old kangoo was far easier to lift up. everything is metal underneath and solid. compare that to a much newer audi q3 where everything is cheap plastic underneath and you cant really lift it without breaking something. also some panels especially in the trunk of the car are super flimsy crap. and that on a car thats worth like 5 or more times as much. no thanks.
@@simonhodgetts6530 absolutely there are exceptions. But not the norm. Even toyotas and hondas of today aren't like the ones from 20 years ago. My youngest car is 2006. Today CVT is a joke. Direct injection adds complexity on maintenance and materials used are just awful. And to top it all off infotainment from 5 years ago is almost obsolete so you have to upgrade the entire car.
The most environmentally friendly thing to do is to keep older and current vehicles going for as long as possible.
yes exactly that- anyone who dumps their current vehicle because of 'whatever' has not understood the problem
False
@@TeslaRoadtripsHope you know how much Energy it needs to build all the parts for a new E-Car? And did you know, that People (Children too) in Africa digging the Cobalt for the Batteries with their own hands and dont earn enough to buy enough food?
@@marcbaur677 The cobalt argument is overplayed and outdated. Very few chemistries even use this element. There have been tons of studies on the energy needed to build and amount to drive to equal out fossil.Even the most conservative estimates for EV production with whole supply chain coming from china with coal for energy, show that at around 90k miles it would equal out. Most estimates are markedly lower, within a few years of use. Bloomberg did good papers on it. They're out there.
^ This ^ You can have millions of EVs but still be staring down the barrel of finite resources and ecological collapse. But of course that isn't a fashionable way of thinking, as it doesn't involve new shinys
Drive an electric van mainly for its cheap running cost and reliability after paying out a £3000 bill on my last vehicle gearbox. After 3 years I have not even had to change a bulb and can arrive on time at a job as it's always full of electrons every morning.
This is the main reason I’d get an EV. It won’t have half the parts a normal car has.
What make is it?
@@davarosmith1334 Peugeot e expert 75kw
This is not exactly a scientific channel so a silly anecdotal "evidence" is ok here.
They're good...if you never really have to drive on any substantial trips...like say Seattle Washington to Anchorage Alaska.
I Never really thought my Chevy Bolt would be an environmentally good choice. I got it because I drive 60000 km/year for work and got tired of fuel prices and having to service so often. At 100000kms so far I spent $200 on “maintenance” which was wipers and cabin filters. In Ontario, 🇨🇦, it costs me about $1/100km to run it if charging at home. I could never go back to a petrol car now. It seems silly and too complicated with all the moving parts. Plus it’s a fun drive… and about the same price and a Prius prime
Exactly! Well said
@ Marissa//
I agree; AND yet, the Chevy BOLT is being discontinued after 2023 for more Expensive Electric Truck & Utility Vehicles. WHY NOT MAKE ENTRY CHEAP IF THE PLANET IS SO PRECIOUS ????? (GM also angling around Tesla.) Bcuz every entity votes their pocketbook.
BTW, China has a mini, 2 door, 4 seat, cargo box, electric solution for $4,400 US dollars.
@@adrianmonk4440 I’m sure I’d love it with 3 kids 😝
Makes sense. Until you have to replace the batteries and balk at that cost which will eat violently into all those savings.
As a Norwegian my self I have to inform you. As of January of 2023 electric cars became somewhat more expensive to buy here, especially the ones with a price tag above 500.000NOK. Also, the electricity prices had massively increased the last year, so if you have a charger at home then you’re not too bad off, but if you gotta rely on Fast, or even slow chargers at say gas stations and such than you actually pay less with a petrol car.
I drive a lot through my work. I’ve driven the same route, both with petrol and electric cars many times, lately I’ve taken more and more petrol cars because the electricity prices has increased to a point where I would end up spending less money on petrol than on the electricity.
I thought that your energy cost would be cheaper as mostly sourced from Hydro? Also, would be interested to understand how the colder weather affects the cars (driving and range)
@@beatles4sale2007 Tesla has features to heat the battery automatically in cold weather, so the autonomy is not compromised, aside the energy used to heat the battery.
Electricity usually is cheaper, and Tesla is cutting costs, so I guess the expensive EVs are from non Tesla companies, that and perhaps someone doesn't want EVs to enter fast in your country, EVs are a good deal Ik other countries, so so etching is happening in yours.
@@beatles4sale2007 It should be in theory, but it's not in practice. You can thank Germany (and their failed energy strategy by closing all nuclear powerplants) and the EU for that. Since Norway joined the EU energy marked we have the same prices. The companies who owns the hydroplants make crazy profits at the moment. The current government seems powerless to do anything about the situation.
@@BrockMcLellan Thanks for the very interesting details!! Norway really has been the pioneer when it comes to moving green with their cars. Crazy that the price of electricity has QUINTUPLED (x5!) in just 2 years... We have to hope that the world gets "calmer" soon, and that the electricity prices will fall again, but... how optimistic can we really be right now with how things are developing? I'd expect the government to help the population out in such extreme cases of price surges... Due to the energy crisis in Germany, employees subject to income tax received a one-time energy price subsidy of 300€ in September 2022 (Energiepreispauschale). I'm curious what exactly you mean by "we always have a fixed price". Do you mean that you have a guaranteed fixed price for electricity at your home? If so: for how long?
With cars, I think we should consume less, not desperately try to consume differently. I sold my own car a few years ago and bought an electric bike for commuting. I bought a nice one so I have a range of about 60 km on a charge on the highest assist level (where hills are basically erased), and about doubble that on the lowest. I live in northern Sweden where we get a few meters of snow each winter, but with some studded tires and a healthy attitude it's not a big deal to bike year-round. Maintanence is dirt cheap (I've even learned to do some stuff myself) and I don't need a license, insurance, yearly taxes, yearly inspections or any of that car ownership crap. My home insurance covers the bike in full in case of theft in a very generous way so not even that is a problem. If I need a car I can just hire one for the day or ask a friend if they'd borrow me theirs or their time. All this AND I'm not destroying the planet as much. Yay.
Problem is people have become too reliant on just driving everywhere - we have a 20 year old diesel which grates on me a bit due to the emissions but then it does 50mpg and we do a couple of k miles a year max now - we walk or cycle locally yet we see others in the same radius driving similar journeys and they think we’re weird - it’s also the contempt for cyclists as if they are “poor” because they don’t have a car - or so the perception seems to be - EVs seem to be a solution for those that want to continue the same way of living but with the thinking that they’re being “green” - ironically just walking, cycling or using public transport would be of more benefit…
I agree diversification is the solution, because is not a fit all solution, some people live in cities, some in rural areas , mountains, some countries are richer other are poorer, ev cars are just the lesser of two evil, but still are a resource intensive product.
I also have an electric bike but is a cheap Chinese one and only does 25km according to the manual although I never measured it.
@@Umski I wouldn't say everywhere. I don't have a car, never had one. Neither did my parents or my grandparents. That's three generations and the better part of a century without the need of a car. And if we needed one for whatever reason, there was always a friend or family member that could drive.
It all comes down to having the infrastructure available. A lot of trips can be done perfectly fine without a car, if the alternatives are there and worth using. Obviously there are places for cars. But what if we not only get personal EVs but also public EVs. Building a tram or electric bus network already takes care of a dense high power grid, helping a fully electruc infrastructure.
@@HappyBeezerStudios yes you’re right, I was generalising somewhat about attitudes in the west in general though the rest of the world seems to be following the same trajectory - at least those that make their way up the social ladder to be able to do so. Socially it seems to be an issue - I grew up without a car whilst all my relatives had one so the embarrassment of always having to squeeze on to the back row meant my dad eventually passes his test and I was 8 when we got our first car - I guess the mindset was that it was a sense of achievement in life - 30+ years down the line, I still love cars to some extent but have the dilemma of understanding the harm they can do so my attitude is that it’s a means to an end hence doing what I did as a kid and walking my kids to school etc. Unfortunately living relatively rurally means that some kind of transport is needed to get to most places - but only when absolutely necessary…
@@HappyBeezerStudios In most of the world not having a car costs you much more than having one. And saving the ridiculously fortuned countries and cities which don't even make 1% of the total world population won't save the planet if it is to save the planet.
I think a good electrified train system and a break away from a car-centric infrastructure (i.e. bikes and pedestrians) like in Japan is a good alternative to converting all cars to EV's.
Yes Comrade.
Yes sir, average Not Just Bikes viewer. Public transportation must prevail for the good of the motherland.
If it was affordable I'd love to travel the US on a train.
I really don't see the point of large SUV EVs
EVs are best as small sedans traveling locally
in fact do both.
Great idea let’s uninvent the car so we can all ride around in squeaky clean modern overfilled trains with butplugs up our asses for the greater good of humanity
I would love an EV but have no off street parking which, as you mentioned, is a common situation. I’ve heard ideas suggesting that plug sockets could be added to lamp posts or bollards, but it would be a massive undertaking to cater for everyone and I can’t help but feel that the environmental impact of manufacturing and installing of all of this infrastructure on virtually every street would take decades to offset.
For this reason I have had no choice to buy a new petrol car. I did my research and made sure I chose something I was very happy with and intend to keep it for a long as possible, which I feel is more environmentally friendly than buying something new for the sake of it
In the long run there will be more EVs than lamp posts. Electric basically hangs on infrastructure.
@@HappyBeezerStudios Your lights are out.
Have you ever been to Norway? Blocks of flats are almost nonexistent in there! There you have an answer, their cities aren't that dense and 99% of people have a house with backyard so charging at home is not a problem.
Here's the other problem, though, with your logic: the best and most popular plugin hybrid, the Chevy Volt, was cancelled because it wasn't selling well enough. The main issues being that people prefer SUVs (for some reason) and according to CBS News, GM was losing money on every Volt sold.
I think you also are missing the elephant in the room: China
Most vehicle development decisions made today, especially American OEMs has to do with selling vehicles in China. China has made a strong commitment to EVs, and OEMs are chasing that market, which in fairness is pretty much the largest opportunity for vehicle sales. EU and US sales are going to follow the lead of what happens in China, and the Chinese government seems to have zero interest in anything other than EVs.
Yeah he made a very cheap analysis (kinda disapointing compared to his past videos), he indeed forgot about the first auto market in the world who's going full electric and believed so much in the tech that they now own some of the biggest battery and EV manufacturers in the world, as well as the tech of the most affordable and promising batteries (LFP, sodium, etc....). There's no doubt the market will go electric in coming years, China also being one of those forces pushing us in the right direction.
The Volt had the same issues as the fully-electric Bolt EUV. Cheap quality, reliability issues, confused marketing, and profit lust. The Bolt EUV sold really well (despite it's pathetically slow charging rate), but it got the chopping block anyway. It was a lazy effort and GM never intended to make it a true long-term success.
100% phev sales are cratering in china. So much so audi is going to stop selling them there soon. They are largest market in world. If you think they don’t matter you’re mistake
That explains the current car market trend to some extent
@@hectornecromancer5308 Yeah, PHEVs have always been niche players. They never took off when they had their window. Now BEVs are exponentially growing. The only people going to keep investing in them will be the japanese who are quite obstinate w/ BEVs and have missed the boat to china/korea
I suspect there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to this, and we'll eventually settle into a range of different options that are most appropriate for the application and individual in question.
As long as governments don't prevent people from choosing.
That would be extremely expensive, as you would have to pay for developing all of them at the same time, also for the whole infrastructure. Developing all means using none.
Gas cars did also pushed all other ways of transport away in the 1910s, we did not continue to use horses, steam cars and electric cars at the same time.
@@Ismalith except that gas cars pushed others out of the way in an organic manner. The general public simply chose them. Since the demand was so high, that's where the focus went. Forcing the public to pick a technology, rather than letting the masses determine what technology is right for them is a backwards
@@chrxx4327
No they didn't they where massively subsidized over the military.
The military needed oil because they couldn't really run with batteries and steam engines still need more infrastructure than gas engines.
But you can't just start drilling for oil when a war already is happening, so the military started to get oil wells and oil infrastructure in place.
Selling it cheaply in peace times allowed the military to further let this infrastructure develop and improve.
And cheap oil also means that gas cars had a massive advantage over all other means of transportation.
Further gas engines where the only viable option in aircraft and since aircraft where the trend back then, of course people loved to have the same engine in their car that was in the aircraft as well.
From the car perspective itself the gas car was actually the worst one, widely hated for its unbearable noise, stink, and unreliability. As well as weak and a lot of maintenance, where you couldn't even use the old steam workshops widely available, the same for the infrastructure.
Not to mention, that finding gas on your way wasn't easy, this picture that we have today, that gas cars where good for long distance travel is nonsense. Places where you could get gas where rare and gas cars back then where thirsty.
What also helped massively for the gas car, was that governments literally paid for engine and technology development, again over the military.
And the End of WW1 basically meant that the whole war industries and all those government paid developments where cheap to get for private gas cars.
So they made the race.
@@chrxx4327
Also the public is always forced to take what is granted.
If not by the government, then by companies and the second have a poor track record of usually screwing up on big scales.
In fact, that the US is basically a car dictatorship is not because everyone wanted to drive by car, but because the car companies bought as many public transport systems as they could and just closed them.
The same is true on, why people walking are forced on small ways while we build giant lanes for cars.
Companies decided for us how we should have to behave so they make the most money and then forced us into submission.
I agree with you. Electricity prices where I live have gone up 40-50% in the past 12 months, and this has bitten into the savings of electric car owners to some degree. Gas may not be cheap either, but hybrids offer a flexibility that the electrics don't have yet. They also offer something of a compromise to people who are willing to try an electric car but still want the security of knowing they have a gas engine to fall back on.
You forget there is a war, that is affecting the procurement of energy resources... also there isn't enough EVs on the road globally currently to affect electricity that much, a lot more electricity is used by ACs and geysers.
How much has the price of gasoline gone up in the same period?
@@davidchsw Fluctuates a lot obviously, but during 2021 and 2022 it went up around 70% over here and has fallen almost to early 2022 prices, which is still about 40% over the cost in 2020
And fuel and electricity aren't the only things that have gone up in price, food went up as well. I would say cost of living is about 40-50% higher now than in 2020
They've been saying that we're gonna run out of oil for over 60 years. It isn't going to happen any time in the near future.
I did a paper on the various fuels an drivetrain types in cars as a part of my education. My view on the matter is that EVs have a definite place in future mobility, but they won't ever be a catch-all solution. Pure BEVs are the best choice if you strictly drive in urban areas, with a lot of stop-n-go driving. Furthermore they're a better choice the smaller the vehicle is. For example, e-bikes and mopeds are a given to be BEVs these days, as well as things like postman and food delivery cars.
When almost exclusively driving in rural areas however, BEVs are increasingly maladjusted and ICE vehicles make increasingly more sense. Long distances at near constant high speed is about as ideal as it gets for ICEs in real-world situations, while BEVs hate both long distances and high speeds. The local pollution is also a non-issue at such low traffic density as rural areas see, at least if the ICE vehicles are even remotely modern.
Ambient temperature also matters a lot. BEVs are overly picky with it, esp. when it's too cold, while ICE-Vs don't care nearly as much. Therefore an ICE-V makes more sense the further away from the equator you live; I live in the middle of Sweden and BEVs during our winters S U C K, while they're alright otherwise. There's also the factor of keeping already existing cars on the road as long as possible, both for environmentally and economic reasons.
Two important things that'll need to be done is synthetic fuels and car size minimization. While I champion the continued use of ICEs in all but urban settings, they will of course have to run on fossil free fuels. For those I champion biogas in CNG form (b-CNG) as well as cellulose-derived ethanol (CDE as I call it), as b-CNG is typically produced from waste products while CDE can too, or from trees; a typical full-size tree can give around 350 litres of ethanol through existing enzyme treatments. This makes it within the realm of reason to power the US, Canada, the Nordics, Russia, and likely China, as well as other forest-rich countries, fully off of CDE in a sustainable manner.
Car minimization is probably the no. 1 most crucial thing regardless of power source. A lighter car will be more energy efficient, and so will a smaller one when considering drag. There ICE-Vs have another upside, as they're easier to make tiny while maintaining long range and quick fuelling times. BEVs can only go so light with current technology, and their "so light" is very heavy.
To summarize, BEVs are good in urban areas, ICE-Vs are good in rural and cold areas, and PHEVs are good in usecases that are a mix of those. There is however no doubt in my mind that the political push for EVs is mainly intended to punish poor people, as politicians routinely prove their distaste for them as well as having no care at all for the environment.
Relevant biases to disclose: I'm a classical liberal and as such is quite culturally conservative, with a special affinity for the mid 20th century. I'm also a staunch anti-urbanist, and by extension advocate for de-urbanisation
Interesting - thanks. One thing you didn't define is what an "ICE-V" is. Can you elaborate?
@@BigCar2 Internal combustion engine vehicle, i.e. any vehicle with an engine that burns some fuel internally. Steam cars, niche as they are, are instead external combustion engine vehicles
No one is doing synthetic e fuels or hydrogen for cost reasons, though. Let’s put that out there. Customers will pay through the nose, only people happy will be car companies and petroleum multinationals.
Interesting post. And I agree with you for the most part, EVs are ok for city conditions only. However I must say, powering ICE's with trees is NOT sustainable. How are you going to replenish the soil? Massive amounts of fertilizers... Where does that come from? How will everything get moved around? Tractors, front loaders, tracked vehicles, then by trucks or train (all diesel powered). How much land would this require? That would be A LOT of land if a full size tree only produces 350 liters, that's not very much considering it will take at least 20-50yrs to grow? That will essentially ruin the land (owned by giant corporation, you can't enter for any reason) not to mention the ecosystems and wildlife that will be created and destroyed every time the trees are grown/ felled. Harvesting trees is an extremely destructive process all around. Then there is all the atmospheric dust created by cutting down the trees. According to wikipedia, the average oil pumpjack brings up 5-40 liters of emulsion/crude oil/ water on EVERY STROKE. You do the math.
@@veretos7 I did the maths on the US, and while it would be a big undertaking---a dense forest with a combined area slightly smaller than Texas would be needed for a 20 year growth time---it would then be able to cover the US' entire current transportation energy needs, including that machinery you brought up. As for the soil, that is a concern but the cellulose itself is mainly built used water and air, so it's not as much of a concern as it may seem. The various waste produced after cutting down a tree, mainly leaves probably, could then be added back as a form of fertilizer, further reducing the nutrient deficiency. As for land use and ecosystems, it'd be paramount to cut down (and replant) a few trees continuously rather than a massive chunk at once. Then animals and humans alike can spend time in the areas not currently being processed. To ensure that private corporations don't just seal off the land and plow everything down, a lease program akin to the ones they have for oil can be instated. Atmospheric dust from sawdust is likely a non-issue, and can be eliminated if, for example, the saw blades are sprayed with water, watering the area at the same time.
This is all with the current state of affairs too. The US desperately needs to downsize their passenger vehicle fleet, as does most countries. The average US car does a minuscule 24.2 mpg while light trucks and vans only do 17.5, both per energy.gov. In the future that'll have to double at least, which means that half of the area described above would cover the energy needs. This also neglects all other sources of cellulose, like agricultural waste in form of wheat and corn stems.
I agree, hybrids are the future. Take a look at Nissan Qashqai e-Power, same approach as the Mazda MX30 R-EV. I'm sure we will see more of these.
I know a lot of PHEV owners that regret their decision not to buy an EV instead. It turned out, they use their car as an EV. They get warnings about their gas is getting old. The drawback of PHEVs is, you have to charge them almost each night while you can charge your EV once a week. That also results in far lower battery cycles which is important for a long battery health.
It's just a case of people making the wrong purchase decisions. A PHEV would be great if you have regular short and long trips, otherwise either a regular hybrid or a cheap ev & occasionally renting a gas car is the best option.
@@Progan666" cheap ev and occasionally renting a car" that's actually, what I do :)
To me, the PHEVs seem to be the worst of both worlds. They don't appear to give particularly great range or fuel consumption, you have the extra weight, cost, etc. Perhaps it is partly due to my living situation (in Aus, where most people seem to have access to wall sockets, if not fast-charging in their garages/car ports), but anything less than a full EV with 200km+ range seems like a compromise.... (And thus I am still driving an ICE car until I can afford an EV that meets these requirements!)
Definitely agree with you there. I owned both a HEV and a PHEV, and the PHEV (Kia Optima SW) in particular was useless here in Norway. No matter how full the battery was, it needed to start the petrol engine to use heating/cooling. Also due to it being FWD and the battery pack in the back the understeer in wintery conditions were crazy. It felt to me like the front weren't able to grip due to the back being pushed down (might of course just been a thing with that particular make and model). I can definitely see the positives with them somewhere else, but here it was not good. Switched over to an EV, and for me and my daily use it is perfect.
@SMGund did u ever drove a toyota or mercedes plug in hybrids or other models? Because they don't kick the engine on when ev only
@@italianmaestro3045 No, not driven any other PHEVs.
You need the car to suit your driving circumstances. My MG HS PHEV returned 165 MPG over 3000 miles, it suits me.
Odd, my plug in hybrid can achieve 109mpg (apparently more is possible but this is my own personal best) and yet can still be faster than a golf GTi.
So... Best of both worlds, when the circumstances are met.
I'd urge you to try before you post horse shite online.
Great video, but I think the switching between the North American market and the European/UK market is a bit confusing. In Europe a 50 mile battery range would probably mean, in a hybrid, we wouldn't need to trouble Esso or Shell. However, in the USA it is common to need to go 20+ miles just to reach the nearest supermarket so clearly their requirements are quite different IMHO.
In the US going 20+ miles to go to the nearest supermarket is not common.
@@nothere572 Well said. There's so much of this 'my country is so big!' nonsense from USA, Canada and Oz..where the facts are that most people live in urban areas, near supermarkets and most of their journeys are 20 or 30 miles a day. There are those who live on farms of course where the weekly shopping trip may be 30 or 40 mile round trip but those guys have a big advantage...they have big homes and barns that they can put solar panels on and power their cars without needing the grid...That's what I've done here in rural France...covered pretty much all my 19,000 km last year on sunlight.
The topic here is the average miles driven. According to the Federal Highway Administration, the average American drives 13,476 miles (21,688 km) per year. While that number in Germany is 8,452 miles (13,602 km) and Italy about 5259 miles (8464 km) per year. Granted this does not show the average trip they do but is a good indicator. So the point of the OP is true that requirements are quite different and you can see that in the type of cars sold in each country
Yeah that is cause most of the US is designed horribly, or were designed to segregate black communities with white communities, while the black neighbourhoods were placed much further away.
@@MarianoLu the difference is EU supports local, nearby and well situated businesses (usually family owned) that provide grocery and daily needs, while the US supports corporate monopolistic companies like Walmart, where they are situated further away from consumers in order to reach the maximum.
What's stopping from a family run or communitu run little bakery or butchery or food market from popping up near consumers? Well the local city council, who makes it illegal in some cities to even put up a lemonade stand, why? Cause the city council board or higher ups owns shares in Walmart.
Excellent work again. You are right about plug in hybrids and there a ton of other reasons to support that. Cold climate battery performance, hard to find high speed chargers and more.
He completely fails to make the counter arguments in favour of EVs...look at the title. The Fords, VWs of this world aren't daft, they're investing in EV technology for a reason
@@matthewlewis2072The reason being that they have alreay invested so much that it would be a complete easte of resources to lobby for PHEVs or other forms of cars by now... they hopped on the bandwagon and won't get off it as they have already sunk billions into EV R&D.
@@chasef195 Glad you are not running the show.
We went hybrid 10 months ago and immediately reduced our fuel costs by 66%. Here in Australia we have long distances and few recharging option for full EV 's. Plug in Hybrids are way too expensive here and electricity is expensive and rising at the moment.....for us living an hours drive from our state capital, our only way forward was a Rav4 Hybrid.....😊
Gas will always rise till there is none or we kill ourselves. You have the perfect situation for solar charging stations.
I drive electric cars because I enjoy the quick acceleration, convince of changing at home, and low maintenance. They may not be practical for everyone. But, they are practical for most.
...who have access to charging at home. Which, in Europe, isn't most.
@@edinger1978 Many renters and others that park in the street in Europe have access to level 2 charging at work, while shopping, and now more than ever charging posts on the curb. Plus apartments are installing chargers to accommodate EV drivers. Depending on individual circumstances that may be sufficient. So I stand by my statement. EVs are practical for MOST drivers. Because 68% of people in Europe own their home. And many others have easy options to charge while parked.
@@classics7636 Google it. Then get back to me.
I've been driving an MG5 as a taxi for 3 months now. I have a regular gig which is a twice daily 60mph round trip, plus normal taxi work around my local, very hilly, small city. I have a 7kWh home charger and a driveway to park on. I also have solar panels and cheap overnight electric.
After 8000 miles my main and most surprising takeaway is that an electric motor is a far better way to power a car than an internal combustion engine. Power delivery is always immediately available. Electric drive and steering means driving fatigue has reduced significantly compared to my last car ( a diesel Vauxhall Insignia with a very nice, if slightly irksome to maintain 170bhp engine) meaning I can drive longer and earn more money. The car can go up and down steep hills effortlessly at a set 20mph without hunting for gears or revs. This is a fantastic boon for a taxi driver in my town and a real stress reliever.
Range anxiety is not a thing. Leaving the house every morning with 200-250 miles of range is less hassle than planning routes to pass a cheap source of diesel, and certainly less time consuming.
Fuel costs for me are 5p per mile, range seems very temperature dependent but is never less than 200 miles, and 300 is possible on a warm day if you want to put the effort in to achieve it.
I have only had to charge it away from home 3 times, which involved stopping after 3 hours at a well known fast food outlet for 20 minutes for a B*gM*c and a sh*t , which was enough time to put 100 miles into the battery, even taking the coffee "to go". This is not any different to the thousands of times I have made such journeys in a diesel or petrol vehicle, so the main drawback was the price of the fast charger, which was comparable to fossil fuels, and the impact on my food choices.
So, for me, fully electric is the best choice. I imagine that there will be challenges. I'm interested to see how the car ages, how the battery deteriorates and what kind of things break on what is , despite its surprisingly good levels of equipment and comfort, a budget vehicle. The inherent lack of complexity in an electric drive chain bodes well for this but I can't make any judgements yet.
So, for me, I can't see myself going back to ICE vehicles, and this is without even taking into consideration the environmental benefits, which are real, but certainly more complex and nuanced than the advertising blurb would have you believe. I did try and get odds on the location and date of the first Lithium War, but William Hill weren't able to offer me anything , yet
Fellow MG5 owner here and I can confirm that the car is brilliant. I want to know who is regularly doing more than 200 miles a day, it’s just not believable, lol
Don't baffle them with actual facts from someone that's done it, they don't like it, lol. We're three years into EVs , wouldn't go back.
My daily driver is a Chevrolet Bolt. I analysed my driving patterns for a few months before buying it, and established that I would only need to use public fast-charging perhaps once or twice a month, and reality has found it to be even less than that. There's another difference between hybrid (plug-in or otherwise) and straight electric ... the straight electric needs no regular maintenance! Mine has done just shy of 30,000 km, and the only "maintenance" has been swapping between summer and winter tires. No oil changes, no filters, no timing belts, no sparkplugs.
You are starting to see the light...
EVs don't require petrol stations either. All those pumps and big underground tanks that threaten your groundwater, the delivery trucks to supply them, the refineries that pollute, the oil transport that destroys our coast, and the A Rabs that have all the oil.
Gone.
Early petrol cars had the same problems in obtaing fuels as EVs have in many areas. It was omly available from pharmacies.
Near me, slow chargers are on lamp standards on the kerb.
Electricity is everywhere. Even in tne sticks.
Electricity is everywhere. Can somebody help to carry my car to my flat on the second floor ?
@@stefansikora5183
The chargers are on lamp standards on the kerbs by me.
*electricity is everywhere.*
My family bought and had a new Fiat 500e for little over two years now. The car is amazing and my parents can charge it at their home so it’s quite practical.
When I take it in the city and have to charge near my apartment then I have lots of outlets but the same frustration of having to choose the right time to do it to find those available.
Also, the biggest issue of all is the cost. Yes there’s no road tax but unless you charge at home then fast charging is really expensive, and longer motorway journeys can cost much much more than with a diesel car.
Hows the reliability of it?
The only option missing from your video is Neo’s solution in China. With a compatible car, you can drive into a Neo facility and the battery is automatically swapped out for a fully charged one. Takes about 6 minutes allegedly. If we’re ever going to address the issue of people who have to park on the street or live in flats then we need a global battery standard so that this can be the way we refuel our EVs, regardless of brand.
Good point. So many EV problems would have been eliminated from the start if the industry used standardized, swappable batteries from the beginning.
Right ...and the cell phone companies cant even agree to share towers ..it aint going to happen!.
It would be nice if we could do that like Nio. Tesla and A Better Place experimented with it. Would be ideal for slow charging (gentler on batteries, and more efficient), and optimizing the grid (off peak or excess power charging). Problem is that the battery chemistry and format is still evolving. Perhaps down the line the ideal formula will be found, and this will be possible.
The Rivian "Gear Tunnel" looks as if it would be ideal for a slide in battery (like a giant Tamiya RC car).
Ya its a bit of joke isnt it? EV's make so much sense in big cities, but its a nightmare to charge them there, lol.
I think the main advantage is (nearly) free fuel (mentioned in the video as well) together with other benefits if you live in a country like Norway. Also, if you have solar panels (in some regions in Europe a two-digit percentage of people have them), it's even cheaper than in Norway.
Also, many of these are sold as company cars in Europe (which are often "prestigious" models EVs or not), so the decision process is entirely different.
For the average driver cost will be the deciding factor, not environmental impact. But both are connected. The fuel in the tank produces emissions and the electricity has to come from somewhere.
This is very interesting and thanks for making it.
I think the most crucial element by far is the charging. Norway has lots of open spaces and probably not loads of people in crowded urban environments and Norway has superb public service infrastructure. You experienced problems for a few months when living in a flat and owning a Tesla so you had to go at night. Imagine if your neighbours in the flats also had Teslas - you would go to the charging station at 10pm to find them all waiting there too! In Brighton where I used to live, cars were parked on the left of the rod, and the right, then a lane divider then cars on the left and on the right, so four lanes of cars in one street. This was because so many once single properties have been converted into flats and all those occupants have a car. Imagine if they were all electric - can’t change at home and your charging station would be overwhelmed.
EVs are OK when a relatively few people with large homes, space and garages own them. To have all new car sales as EVs for people in central city flats is totally impractical, even if they could plug them into a 3-pin mains socket let alone a charging station. Unless batteries get to the point of being able to fully charge in the time in take to fill a petrol tank or we have removable/replaceable batteries that you swap out (very tricky with the size & weight of car batteries) then EVs will never be an option for the majority of the population.
A green transport solution is quality, efficient, practical, reliable public transport and real cycling infrastructure. Cars are not “green” however you dress them up - simply changing the engine and thinking it ignores every other aspect of the environmental consequences is delusional.
I think your plugin hybrid solution sounds, at present, by far the least damaging option for personal motorised transport.
💯
Level 2 chargers will need to be installed att most parking spots next to apartment buildings, which will be costly but it's slowly happening.
@@matthiasknutzen6061 Cost is a good factor. How to prevent that someone charges without paying.
@@HappyBeezerStudios I know, how do petrol stations manage it? Oh...
@@matthewlewis2072 you fill, you pay, you leave.
which would be great if recharging can be done in a matter of minutes. but with charger parking spots and overnight charging the plug would need to be fixed to the car to prevent someone from nicking it to charge their own one.
If they make ships and factories pollute less, it'll make a much bigger difference. I'm not switching away from internal combustion, hope they get those synthetic fuels ready soon
Synthetic fuels have been around for decades, but it is the emissions that are an issue and no synthetic fuel will change that.
You're right about the factories and ships though.
They have for ships, they use a new fuel that doesn't release sulfur emissions. Which paradoxically leads to a warmer northern hemisphere as the sulfur emissions from shipping reflected a minute fraction of the suns light in a process known as "Global Dimming".
Very well said. Beef, energy, shipping and airline industries pollute far more than our private cars.
On the other hand, a well maintained used petrol car emits far less than the production of a new electric car, which burns electricity that comes mostly from traditional fuels and less from renewables, in most parts of the world.
So, keep your existing "gas guzzler" for as long as possible, not for the sake of petrolheadism, but because it's the most eco & logical thing to do.
Absolutely love your well researched videos but for my use-case a PHEV was a dead end. I had two PHEVs, an Ioniq and then a Tucson NX4 and I live in Germany where I lock the ACC/LFA on 180 km/h traveling long distances. On the one hand, I had to fill up the Tucson every 250 kms - 14-16 l/100 km, like my F32 M4 Competition - for schlepping all the EV stuff, on the other hand, getting those 35 real-life kms of EV range were always a struggle in exchange for such a short time of electrified driving. Plus the Ioniq would put on the gasoline engine for heating or going up a hill. (The Tucson can heat on EV mode.) I just popped it into Sports mode to have access to all 265 horsepowers while the battery lasted and called it a day (yes I'm a feeble human being). Now it's a G80 2.2Diesel, couldn't be happier.
Excellent example with the Ioniq. The hybrid one is like a tractor. The original pure EV Ioniq with it's meagre 28 kWh battery turned out to be a real classic. A wonderful sweetspot! ua-cam.com/video/MgzVtkvCiTM/v-deo.html
Since switching to a Tesla Model Y, I'm saving around $300 per month in gas and maintenance. So in about 10 years time the money saved will be around $40,000 give or take, making it essentially a free car. Its also the safest vehicle ever tested, so I wanted to keep my family safe. Its the best vehicle I've ever owned, hands down. It's so much fun, and the acceleration and handling is insane, feels like im driving a high end Porsche. The 900watt audio system is on another level with 13 speakers and a subwoofer. Thd infotainment and self driving are best in the world. Those are all the reasons I think EVs will eventually take over, they are just significantly better cars. And save money, and better for the environment.
You make good points. It seems to me that using delivery services, walking, riding bicycles and using public transport is also a good way to cut down on needing cars.
Unfortunately US cities tend to be car centric (divided by huge superhighways that ironically turn into parking lots at peak hour) with relatively poor public transport. It was a deliberate policy decision to invest in road infrastructure in the 1950's, rather than urban rail, light rail etc. Same for intercity transport, where the highway network is also more convenient than the US' mostly very poor rail network.
@@TassieLorenzo I totally hear you. I am lucky living in an inner Sydney suburb with a bus stop literally a minute from the building's front door with buses coming every ten minutes weekdays and 15 on weekends and public holidays and Sydney CBD ten minutes walk from here. We have security parking in the building but I haven't owned a car for more than ten years. It's a different story for those living on the perimeter of the bigger cities here and out in the country where if there is any bus service it might be once or twice a day and nearest train station could as much as hundreds of kilometers away.
In the US there's basically classist stigmas over use of public transport, where you're seen as essentially homeless if you ride the bus. Even people who can barely afford a car and would greatly benefit from public transport perpetuate this stigma. All this leads to decreased ridership, leading to less funding and even _worse_ public transport. Americans have too much grandiose ego to take the bus.
@@flurpoid it's the same everywhere - I ride my bike (in the UK) when I can, but people look at me cycling 1.5 miles to buy a loaf of bread as if I'm weird i.e. can't afford a car (I have a 20 year old diesel that does 50mpg but is only used for longer journeys - a PHEV or EV would be the next step when it dies but when it costs me £1-2 in diesel for my 50p loaf of bread it makes no sense!) - I am in a smallish town that is linear with basically 1 bus an hour and a totally useless train station (built just a few years ago at a cost of £xM) which has 2 services an hour but is £££ and requires changes to get anywhere significant. Similarly, the badge of status in many developing countries is owning a car and hence it's no longer a case of having a mode of transport, such as a bike or scooter etc, it's jamming up the roads and planet with more cars - of course manufacturers love this as it results in profit 😏
@@flurpoid Yes, because that is how the US government set it up to be, the black community who back then couldnt afford personal vehicles used public transport and were situationally placed in areas of the cities where they needed to travel more to get to work
Exactly. Here in India also hybrids make a lot of sense but govts aren't backing them
One point missing in this video is the incressed maintenance on phev compared to ev
Yep, even more annoying, expensive maintenance even when compared to a reguler ice car.
You make some really good points. But unfortunately, it's far too difficult to make a phev with a decent battery range and a high efficiency engine particularly on large saloons and SUVs. They end up weighing about 3 tons
Love the Honda e in the thumbnail, I have a Honda e, great tech, crap range and tiny boot. The wife has gone to a festival 150 miles away and has taken the Mercedes diesel suv instead!
One important item to keep in mind is that some plug-in hybrids might be currently hogging the existing public charge points, they have ridiculously weak chargers since they are designed to fill their battery on home power so they take several hours to fill a tiny battery when the same charge station could fill a BEV at up to several times quicker(some plugins charge at 3kw when the public chargers provide 22kw). If plug ins would only charge at home, the infrastructure issue would be partially mitigated. Some charger makers are now starting to make DC chargers at 22kw partly to cover the market more efficiently and partly because it will force AC only plug ins to go to another charger, providing more efficient use of the charge points for providers.
I've purchased a BEV since i don't travel much by car and i'm honestly tired of babysit my petrol car with constant maintenance, i want a transport appliance not a pet. Environmental thoughts are a nice plus but it's not mission critical for me.
Utter nonsense. No-one with a PHEV is going to waste time using a public charger, they will just use the petrol engine.
@@originalkk882 My workplace has four chargers (2x 7kw, 2x 22kw) and they are always used by PHEV when i check the stalls(there are a few BEV but they will find a spot only if they get very early in the morning). Same in the other 22kw peppered around my town. Every outlet that's isn't paid by time is the same. The power fee is less than four hours of parking.
@@originalkk882 they really do. Yes, it makes no sense but it’s happening.
It´s a bit ironic that EV folks want PHEV folks to run on petrol to keep the chargers free for EV´s (to "save" the planet).
@@michaelheimbrand5424 Expecting a PHEV to run 100% on electricity is as silly. The plug-in part is designed to run the daily city errands in the 20-50km range. If you routinely need to do more than that, going charger to charger just makes it a worse BEV.
You’re arguing for range extenders, not plug-in hybrids. Interestingly I have recently had a Polestar 2 (BEV), a BMW i3 (BEV, not Rex) and two XC90 T8 plug-in hybrids. The most compromised are the XC90s. The reason being is that there is a 320HP gas engine and an 80HP electric drive - it is designed to use both. I like the space and comfort, but can’t to replace the XC90 with the upcoming EX90 BEV due to the compromised drive train.
I want to know what happened to "LPG". I remember it being pushed back around the 90s and 2000s as a clean, efficient, source of fuel. I remember it gaining some popularity with taxis, and then it seemed to disappear.
In Romania, where I live, there are still many cars with LPG, and taxis especially are mostly LPG, with cars like the Dacia lineup being sold with LPG out of the factory
In Poland there are a ton of cars that rub on lpg, and it is available on like 90% of the gas stations
@@servissop151 Same here in Turkey, in a country without oil or gas and a hyperinfliation second to Columbia and Argentina, LPG costs nearly half of what oil costs. I have a Honda Civic 2019, from the last year before Honda factory closing in Turkey, and its LPG system is factory made, the gas plug goes in just next to the fuel plug so it doesn't even look like the car is a LPG car. The start oil consuption is like 3 months for a full tank. And this is for city use. Long rides sure much more less oil included.
Because the government don't want you to have a clean, efficient and cheap form of transport. That's the whole point, to eliminate freedom of movement for the masses.
The market for EVs is fed considerably by plug-in hybrid owners. I had a 330e for three years, loved it but by the end of the lease just wanted a pure EV.
Interesting video, and it touches on some points that really should see more discussion. The over-arching point here is one I think I agree with: that right now for a large proportion of consumers a plug-in hybrid might be a better option than an EV, however I have some thoughts:
- In the consumer survey, the second most popular response being that EVs are "the way of the future" may not be as silly as it seems. Of course plenty of people have bought into EVs because its the latest and (maybe) greatest, but for people looking for a car to own for 5+ years worries around increasing fuel prices (due to taxation or any number of other reasons), emissions taxes, "clean air zones" and so on mean that while today it may not appear as the attractive option VW wants you to think it is, it is worth considering whether having a car with an ICE is going to be worth it in a few years time, especially with planned legislation specifically stating the PHEVs will not be exempt. (this is already a factor in many European cities)
- Right now EVs carry a premium, there's no doubt. However that premium has shrunk vastly over just the last 2-3 years, and with the innumerable billions of both public and private dollars flooding into industries around lithium production and later stage battery assembly it seems inevitable that relatively soon (much sooner than 20 years), the maths will look significantly more favourable.
- As mentioned in the video many people don't do long journeys in their cars. For those people the options as presented now might favour PHEVs, however the choice could soon be between a pure EV, or a PHEV for which they pay tax on an ICE they never use - probably an easy decision.
As with everything there's a huge number of factors at play. Including where you live. I have no doubt that owning a car with an ICE (be that PHEV or not) will make sense in a large country like the U.S. for much longer than it would make sense in a smaller country like the UK. Charging infrastructure will of course take a long time to be built out to the same degree as re-fuelling infrastructure, but again, I don't see it taking as long as some expect. Its simply a case of supply and demand and as the demand increases, someone will step in to take their money.
EVs have some big problems. Most fundamental is the source of the electricity to begin with, but the electrification of our transportation will hopefully pave the way to future where we burn less stuff we pull out the ground. PHEVs are a great stepping stone, and I don't doubt that PHEV technology will remain relevant in industries like long-haul trucking for years to come, but, in my opinion, the full electrification of personal transport is probably here to stay.
Great comment. In energy industry and planning, there's very little doubt that the EVs as the future of personal transportation. They are already being included in energy planning for years.
Most people with plug in hybrids never plug them in and end up using more fuel because they have to carry the battery around that's why most companies won't even allow hybrids in their fleet and 50% of new car sales are company cars. So no plug in hybrids are not the future especially since it will be illegal to sell them new after 2030.
In the USA, a base model 3 tesla w tax rebate is 35k, even cheaper in some states. Thats way below avg. fossil car price of 48k.
"EVs are "the way of the future". Good point. My 2001 2.2 Litre ICE car was literally priced off the road due to being just above 200g CO2 /km. Road tax would now be £395 a year which was more than the car was worth. Cause and effect. If the Government is encouraging everyone to buy EVs they will be very unpopular if they then make taxes on them higher than ICE cars.
@@MrDuncl here in usa SUVs and trucks have been exempt from gas guzzler tax for decades while cars have had to pay. Time for some payback
The Volt/Ampera wasn't actually a hybrid, it was a range extender and the petrol engine never drove the wheels, it acted as a generator.
Those are still called hybrids, specifically Series-Hybrids. The definition is the engine is not directly connected to the wheels, only charge the battery which runs the motors that turn the wheels. Parallel Hybrids have engine and motor working together.
The original Volt/Ampera was a parallel hybrid, not a series one. They have 3 clutch packs, so even worse than a normal ICE car to maintain.
ua-cam.com/video/AX5ZwzNwTc4/v-deo.html
A few years ago, when I was staying with friends in Norway, I was struck by how many Teslas there were on the road.
My local friend explained that it cost the same to get a VW Polo as a Tesla, because of the cash backs, tax credits, etc.
(Free ferries, free parking and other perks were additional bonuses).
It was/is not an example of the free market economy... just the government reassigning tax payers dollars.
The 2016-2019 Chevrolet Volt was the answer to nearly everyone's driving needs. Especially the 2019 which can charge in 1.5 hours. Admittedly the centre rear seat was a token, but useful when used to hold a baby seat which we do all the time. And in that configuration actually seats three across which my Model 3 LR can not do at. Too narrow. The Volt strangely can do it. The Model 3 is an absolute agony to use if you only have 110V in a cold climate. It barely charges at all sadly. The Volt will happily charge on 110V always and ready to go in the morning. EVs have a long way to go, and Tesla while the supercharger network is so convenient, is extremely expensive. For the same price of charging 400 kms at the Supercharger, my Volt will go over 600kms and do so in no time at all. So I agree. Still a long way to go, and a PHEV, a good design like the Volt will go a long way.
I can add 50 to 60 miles of range overnight for my Tesla model 3 using 110volts and I’m doing just fine. If I ever need more I can add a 220v line for about $1000 increasing the range to 200 miles overnight so I don’t quite understand what your issue is when it comes to charging your Tesla. Where do you live and what are your average daily driving requirements?
The Mazda with the rotary battery extender motor feels like the perfect solution for my use case.
Opposed cylinder engines (like Achates Power) have a lot of potential too. If you pair a turbo diesel opposed cylinder engine with a hybrid power train you could make one hell of an efficient vehicle.
I looked into why diesel electric hybrids are so rare and the answer is that the two types of powerplants have similar torque curves.
@@lucagattoni-celli1377 Ironically the only hybrids I've driven were both diesel 😂 both mk8 transits
Two words: energy density. The battery tech is not at the stage yet where they are light enough to warrant being used for 'everything'.
We had Ford Cmax Energy and loved it. The problem was that Ford did compensate for the weight of the batteries and the rear suspension sagged over time. Otherwise is was great!
BEVs represent a clean shift in lifestyle while PHEV are sort of a confused mix of both ICE and EV lifestyles. You have to both plug in routinely and worry about routine maintenance of the engine. The daily plug in can work for some people, but requires a lot of dedication and discipline and many if not most PHEV owners just end up using them like regular hybrids (according to Dr. Google). The temptation will always be there to fall back into the ICE/hybrid lifestyle, but with BEVs you have no choice but to commit. For example in my case I only charge once a week or so, and during the summer end up parking my BEV on the street and use my garage for other things, and can move things aside when needed or charge at the station at work when it's available. If I had to charge every single day to avoid using the engine then I would either have to never do projects in my garage or just run the car like a hybrid, which is probably what would happen.
After you have had your EV several years and your range drops away along with it's resale value, your rose coloured EV spectacles will drop off, as mine have done, after 7 years of EV ownership and a battery with only 2/3 rds the range of new and hardly worth a bean now, compared to an ice vehicle. There are EV stocking bans in dealerships now because public opinion has largely turned against EV's and dealers are getting stuck with them or unloading them for a knocked down price, affecting all second hand EV prices.
@@stevezodiac491 so you bought an EV without a decent battery warranty?
I have a Kia sportage hybrid and a Ioniq 5 EV. Main reason I have them is because of gov abuse of the tax system here in the UK.
Environmental arguments are nonsense when you consider the impact of making a new car, far better to drive an old ICE.
When these leases go back in a few years wil get a V8, before dumb gov bans them!
When shopping for a new car I wasn’t interested in hybrid or electric vehicles rather just compact luxury cars and I actually fell in love with the Audi A3 etron. Really loved the idea I could get to work and back without using any gas and I liked how it had “regular” styling. In the end I liked the interior so much I decided to buy an A3 convertible with an ICE because I valued a drop top over electricity
I think it's inevitable, when they reach price parity with gas and diesel cars most people will simply choose them because the running and maintenance cost is lower. People will live with the multiple charging stops on longer trips. And charging at parking for apartments will also be built eventually.
Love EV’s. But battery chemistry needs to change because lithium is scarce. Perhaps. WHEN we can make green hydrogen - a hydrogen combustion engine. Toyota has one and BMW did it several years ago.
Sodium-ion batteries are more sustainable.
Engineering Explained did a video about hydrogen engine, recommend to watch
Believe me, there is no way we will drive hydrogen powered cars, let alone with a combustion engine. We need 70 millions of green hydrogen just to decarbonize fertilizer production, then another 100 millions for steelmaking. Only after that whats left will be used for transportation, and it will be mostly in the form of e-fuel for aviation. Even if you managed to get hydrogen for your car, the engine has to be huge because the energy density of hydrogen per volume is abysmal, about 30% of the displacement goes just for the fuel, so your engine is handicapped by 30% just for that. But it doesn't end there. The knock resistance of hydrogen is abysmal too, so you have to drastically derate your engine, reduce compression ratio and retard timing. So let's say you have 10 kWh of renewable energy, you use it to produce hydrogen, you get about 6 kWh of hydrogen. The engine will never go above 25% efficiency due to the above mentioned problems, so you end up with 1,5 kWh at the wheel. Had you used batteries, you'd have about 8.
@@markotrieste And that's not even counting the NOx emissions.
@@Mew-ip3iy thank will do
Is there a solid plan for disposal of worn out batteries?
Maybe, hydrogen internal combustion engine is the future, who knows.
It is however, clear that the fuel source has to be a renewable one for future transports.
No - that won't work. The specific energy is too low, and even when compressed to 10K-psi you are going to end up with a vehicle that devotes more than half it's its internal volume to fuel tanks just to get similar range. Perhaps a prime-mover can manage that, but not a passenger vehicle.
Yes, there is recycling for dead batteries. Many can be reused for battery backup systems when range gets to low for car use, prolonging the life before recycling.
Im planning to keep my 16 year old diesel on the road for a few years yet in order to see what way the wind blows, either in terms of the price of evs coming down, the technology improving or indeed some other alternative to electric (ie hydrogen or synthetic fuels) emerging.
@Marketing Maverick i live in Scotland mate. The nearest restriction I have is an emission zone in Glasgow city centre, which doesnt affect me. I’ll keep driving it until either I get a replacement or the law says I can 😉
Many developing countries don't even haven sufficient petro infrastructure, let alone electric charging stations.
My reason for owning an EV. 250 miles of range for a round £15. I don't have range anxiety because I plan my journey if a charge will be required.
Must be nice sitting still whilst you wait for the charger to become free - and whilst it charges. Your time must not be valuable
@@IndieChief116 I've got a Mini EV,
(winter range 100 miles, summer range 140 miles)
I live in London, and my usual long journey is 90 miles,
my local public charging point is FREE too,
and I NEVER have to wait for it, as I simply use an app,
that tells me when its available, then its a 5 minute drive to it,
and a 15 minute walk back home, and I can do some shopping
at the charge point too, as its in a big supermarkets car park,
so how many hours do you work, to pay for your weekly road fuel,
me, I dont have to work 1 minute, to pay for the FREE electric to charge up,
"it must be nice, to work many hours, to earn money to pay for fuel" LOL. ,
@@organickevinlondon I feel sorry for you living in London.
Don't you care about the child slave labour in the Congo that made the lithium battery for you car - or the fact it generates 50% more particulates from the tyres and brakes than an equivalent petrol car? I guess if You can't see it, the pollution your car causes doesn't bother you? It is still powered by fossil fuels for the greater part - and explain to me what will happen to your battery - as the last plant able to recycle lithium car batteries in Britain closed, and now shipping companies will not transport used electric car batteries...
German manufacturers are renowned for building bigger heavier cars and lying to their customers about the pollution they cause. Electric cars are a scam. Try driving to Scotland or round Europe for a holiday in it. I personally do not mind paying for my fuel use - but I object to virtue-signalling by people who have not thought about the global impact on their use of electric vehicles - or conveniently ignore it because they are simply virtue signalling.
Your car generates 50% more particulates from the tyres and brakes than an equivalent petrol-engine car - and that's what impacts upon air quality in London, which is appalling. When I do visit, I notice that when you wash your face the sink is filthy with dust. The Tube air quality is awful, and the quality of life seems to have gone down the pan these last few years.
Incidentally, I do not mind at all contributing to my use of my vehicle - we have always paid for the social, domestic and business use of vehicles, and so have you. You are as polluting as the next person but because you distance yourself from the pollution and think that because you can't see it you think it's ok. The Mini used to be a great car - ruined by the German company that bought the brand
I am glad that you have the same opionion on battery vehicles.
I have the same experience as you. As long you can charge at home using an electric vehicle is easy. But if you can't change at home, an that's the case for most people, an electric vehicle becomes quite anpractical and anoing. It's hard to see home to solve the charging infrastructure for the big masses in towns .
Ooh, this is interesting. I am a 70 year old retired pensioner (Australian) so I will never be able to afford an EV unless there are a lot of second hand ones for sale with life left in their battery pack and are cheap. Seems unlikely for some time. I would love to have one though. I am all for reducing carbon emissions but I have a nagging feeling that EVs are just a stop gap. Due to their size and complexity, they seem to be like a worse version of any other throw away electronic device. I can't put my finger on it but I just don't see them as the 'answer'. There has to be something better. In the mean time, I will stick with my rust free AE112 Corolla Conquest with 134,000 km on the clock (manual of course!). I think it will last for a good while yet.
As arguably one of *the* most reliable vehicles of all time (likewise for the earlier AE111), your AE112 Corolla sounds like it is just run-in!
@@TassieLorenzo Yes, just freeing up nicely 😊It is a high water mark for Toyota I think. I tend to take it for granted but I realise I should treasure it more. Maybe a future classic?
The size and complexity isn't a requirement. The Chinese have small simple EVs and eventually the rest of the world will too.
@@neilyoungman9814 Small EVs are basically the optimal replacement for existing small city cars. There is no need for a have a huge car for work commute or groceries.
We should be asking questions about our transportation, but not under the assumption that what we have been doing is correct or better than what is new. ICE also faced much ridicule and skepticism when it was a nascent technology, but look where it is today.
I’m not sure about Australia’s market, but we are definitely seeing a wave of second hand EVs in California. Pricing is definitely a barrier to many, I certainly couldn’t afford a new one myself which is why I bought a five year old Bolt.
To essay your concerns about the disposability of EVs, though they do have lithium batteries like most electronic devices their chemistry isn’t exactly the same and with a few exceptions like the Nissan Leaf, the majority of EVs also have battery conditioning systems that manage temperature for optimization unlike small electronics. Consider also charge cycles, a cell phone typically gets depleted and charged daily, versus the EV will only see such cycles on a weekly basis. Even with average charge cycles, data on older EVs are showing around 90% of original capacity even after 160,000km. We are also beginning to see the genesis of EV battery recycling/reconditioning, an aftermarket for batteries is rapidly expanding.
Complexity is another philosophical debate, though EVs may seem more complex because the drive systems can’t be serviced without specialized tools and knowledge, the same also applies to internal combustion engines beyond regular maintenance items (i.e. bearing extractors for clutches, and spring compressors for various other internal bits). I could go on for an hour on all the electronic sensors in combustion vehicles, air flow volume, pre-catalytic oxygen, post-catalytic oxygen, ignition timers, fuel pressure to name a few. On that par EVs are not necessarily any more complex, however mechanically they are unequivocally simpler. There are around 200 moving parts in the drivetrain of an ICE compared to about 20 in an EV.
EVs are definitely not a stop-gap, their efficiency is at 80-85% versus ICE at a paltry 30% best case. EVs are more adaptable as well, whatever means that can be used to generate electricity (gas, coal, solar, nuclear..) are energy sources. For an ICE petrol is required. One could easily ‘refuel’ an EV at home with off-grid options, the same can’t really be said of petrol (it is of course possible, but with great risk and an extensive knowledge of chemistry plus specialized equipment).
The major truck brands here in the US (Ford F150s etc) are going electric. If you can persuade those customers, you can persuade nearly anyone😀I think EVs are an unstoppable sea change, and the needs of folks who are not able to charge at home could perhaps be met for some time by refurbished (to new condition) ICE based vehicles?
Trucks are used to haul loads, sometimes over longer distances. Hauling loads especially towing a trailer seems to drastically reduce the range of the vehicle.
Two things that weren't unfortunately discussed in the video were
1) there simply isn't enough lithium in the world to support full-scale adoption of EV's. Either we need a new battery tech not so reliant on rare earth elements, or wide scale adoption won't be possible.
2) Future likely isn't going to be a solution of one single fuel, but many different ones, including biogas, which is crucial especially for environmentally friendly trucking industry.
There is enough. It’s not all online yet, as we keep finding more.
It’s also not a rare earth. Those are the magnets in the motors. That’s already being reduced.
Biogas has a place if it would otherwise be emitted. If not, leave it alone.
Hopefully batteries can be made with more common materials like carbon, zinc or sodium I think.
@@AaronandbriEnne You are correct on the lithium parts. However, like many things, mining really isn't simple. As Popular mechanics put it: "This brings us to maybe the greatest challenge of the EV revolution: how to quickly mine lithium (to start the green tech revolution our planet desperately needs) while not leaving behind a litany of ecological disasters and human rights abuses in our wake.".
As someone who does mining environmental research for a living, I can assure you those are not easy goals to reach and most of the Li we currently use comes from pretty shifty places. Mining also produces huge amounts of wastes, and thats why I really think biogas production should be increased if possible.
The Chinese already have Sodium batteries. Production is still in the early stages, so they aren't yet competitive with Lithium, but if they improve at the same rate that Lithium batteries have then they will be good enough for mass adoption inside a decade. If there isn't enough Lithium it will be replaced by Sodium and nobody with a coastline is short of sodium.
I thought due to the environmental cost of the large batteries that hybrids were actually better for the planet currently. At least it takes a damn long time for plain EVs to overtake them. Although there’s a load of complexities in this as to where you source the power to charge them - clearly if you only charge with wind/hydro that’s going to catch up a lot faster than oil/coal powered charging, so depends on your national grid and spread of sources. 🤔
That new Prius is a real beauty. A plug-in hybrid has always seemed the sensible choice to me, as long as it's mechanically reliable.
A rotory engined plug in hybrid running on synthetic fuel would be ideal for me.
sounds delicious!
I had a late 1980s RX7, yes as a range extender, run at the optimum RPM, I guessed it'd be better. But I'm still not convinced. My one did drink fuel and oil ! It does have a size and weight advantage, that was always the case.
There is a new "Liquid Piston Rotary" design (google for it ! ) that on the promo videos I've seen does look like it could be a much better rotary design than the classic Wankel engine.
My own interest in BEVs is partly down to emotional factors (cool/tech/way-of-the-future), but mostly it's down to this: If I'm going to spend "new car" money, I plan to have that car for a lot of years. Do I want to saddle myself with an albatross?
A BEV, provided it can charge from a humdrum household outlet, doesn't have to worry about its fuel source disappearing. I expect that once the economies of scale dry up a little for gasoline, either the price is going to have to go up or the availability is going to have to go down. If any of the subsidies on petroleum shrink or go away, the economics of the current gasoline infrastructure could quickly become untenable.
Also, it's true that BEVs push the tailpipe off to the electrical generating station, which might be coal-fired. What people don't realize is that a power plant is designed and operated to wring as much salable energy as it can per unit of input, whether that's coal, gas, oil, or nuclear. At best, a production automobile engine operates at about 30% efficiency. When it's idling, whether in traffic, or getting up to operating temp on a cold morning, its efficiency drops off a cliff. A BEV only consumes the power it needs to at any one time. "Idling" is not a thing in a BEV. This makes both the environmental impact and economics of BEVs far more attractive.
Finally, as power generation shifts to cleaner, more efficient, and renewable sources, BEVs automatically become cleaner to operate. The "clean" operation of gasoline engines really does seem to be near, if not at, the point of diminishing returns.
Someone is going to be trying to trade in that 3 year old 70k ice suv and is told that his car depreciated 97% because nobody wants them anymore.
Don't be that guy.
"subsidies on petroleum" What have you been smoking to believe this is a thing?
@@mpf1947 you think petroleum isn't heavilly subsedised?
This exactly. EVs are so efficient that even on dirty electricity sources they're cleaner because of just how little energy they lose. Breaking regen and lack of moving parts, not to mention no need to spend energy refining gas anymore. Yale did a study and found, in terms of energy usage, even if the grid was 100% coal we would use 31% less energy if everyone drove EVs instead of ICE. And that considering how inefficient coal powerplants are. The numbers improve with natural gas and renewable. In fact, I bet if they burned gasoline in a powerplant and charged EVs with it, it would be more efficient
@@baronvonlimbourgh1716 Fuels are taxed, and taxes are the opposite of subsidies.
I bought my Niro-EV 3 years ago. In Eco mode it's easy to get 310 miles on a full charge. The car doesn't shake at all, or make substantial noise on the interstate. I charge in my garage while I'm asleep. When DC fast charging out of town, I am never forced to sit in the car and wait for it to "fill up", I'm eating, shopping or taking a bathroom break.
As much as I love old cars (and I drive a vintage Thunderbird some weekends) the EV is leaps and bounds an improvement over the 7 cars I owned before it.
Long road trips of 300+ miles no longer beat me up or leave my ears ringing.
One more thing: a to-from work round trip in my T-bird is $8, in the Niro-EV is 11-70 cents, when I choose to pay for the electricity at all!
As a happy owner of a Opel Grandland Hybrid 4, I am almost exclusively run it on electricity. Especially with solar panels.
Though enjoy the ability to have the petrol backup - while not having to pay for a huge battery which takes up lots more money than the petrol engine.
I can follow your logic and actively went after the plug in hybrid - 🙌
I can't fill up my petrol car at home either. But somehow I manage...
I know a Model 3 owner who can't charge at home or work, but she still likes it. It's not an issue, except that charging may be more epensive.
Fueling up takes 1 minute and there are a lot more petrol stations than charging stations
@@georgemariatos-metaxas7780 Are you filling up a Vespa? It easily takes 3-5 minutes. Then paying, which may take another few minutes. All out in the cold rather than sitting in the warm car for 20 minutes watching Netflix.
@@kadajawi2 Are you filling up your car with a syringe? 5 minutes? and more minutes to pay? the maximum Ive spent in a petrol station is 5 minutes and that included me buying a coffee
Hello from New Zealand, I enjoyed your segment. I am a bit ho hum on pure electric and like the PHEV mode, there are at least 4 different manufacturers selling PHEV here but I am more interested in fuel cell technology it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years...I might even be able to regrow my hair!
Electric cars are now usable enough so anyone can use them for work and pleasure. Plenty of chargers. However, they are still expensive compared to ICE cars and so I don't see people going over to electric unless they love electric cars - the others will stick with ICE cars for as long as possible. The range anxiety and time to charge are still issues. Until they develop batteries that can be charged to 100% in about 10 minutes these will be the barriers for many people.
We will still have the problem with almost all other transport types, such as heavy goods vehicles, coaches, non electrified train, aircraft, military vehicles, shipping. BEVs are not suitable for almost all vehicles except domestic and light van. I cannot charge at home or work so I have a Diesel electric hybrid-4 which works well for me.
I too think that plug-in hybrids are much underrated. I'm in Australia, and most EVs are just not practical here - outside of the big cities (of which there are few), we have big distances and very poor or non-existent charging infrastructure, and it's hard to see that situation changing in the near future. So a plug-in hybrid with 80-100 miles of electric range would be a very good solution. There are a few candidates available here, but they seem to sell in very small numbers. And most are still quite expensive. It's very disappointing that Toyota apparently has "no plans" to bring the new and quite impressive 2023 Prius to Australia, despite having sold the Prius here ever since it first appeared. The logic of that decision escapes me!
I live outside a Big city and have driven all over NSW without an issue and have found lots of EV charging stations. Toyota doesn't sell the Prius because... no demand. This month official data shows electric vehicles accounted for 8 per cent of all new motor vehicle sales - or 6530 of the total tally of 82,137 in April 2023. EV's outsell Hybrid now. The problem with a Hybrid is its neither fish nor foul, its a bad EV and a Poor ICE. Most hybrids use the EV side just to replace a turbo with a pathetic 30K of range and extra weight. As a rural Australian... EV's are the way to go.
They're not practical here in the states. What are fascist government doesn't care, they will be crammed down our throats. The government overlords like them because they can turn you off when they want.
Fair point re an EV for daily regional travel over 300km, but how is a PHEV any better (particularly an Outlander with is poor performing NMC batteries). A good diesel will provide lowest CO2 emissions for that duty cycle. As for city based travel, long daily commutes up to 100km and occasional trips up to 300km to major regional centres, the modern EV will do just fine.
Logic …. apart from the Tesla Model 3, Australians don’t buys sedans (or 5 door lift backs). Toyota will bring their hybrid SUVs to Australia and easily sell everyone they can import at a high margin. A Prius has the similar negative image in Australia to a people mover.
Australia, one of the most urbanised countries in the world. Most people drive less than 50km a day. Rent an ICE car if you need to drive to Cairns.
Great video sir thanks for this informative piece 👍, in Ireland the government is thinking of increasing the taxes on ICE vehicles ,and taxes on ev based on a vehicles weight 😀
The way the grid changes here in the Netherlands and the neighboring countries, investors really believe in the electrification of cars. Just follow the money....
I believe EV adoption can plateau if we don't continue to lower prices and improve charging access significantly. I believe plug in hybrids currently make sense for larger family vehicles that go on long road trips but are used for local errands too like school runs with kids. To me the latest Tesla Model 3 and Prius Prime cost about the same now with US federal tax credit. So for smaller cars, the plug in hybrid doesn't make as much sense anymore. Toyota needs to reduce the price on the Prius Prime to be competitive with the Model 3.
As a recent EV owner, my primary motivation for buying once is for convenience. I am tired of having to make trips to the gas station and to get oil changes. This adds up to many hours each annually.
Some people argue that plug-ins are just a way of avoiding taxes (if applied on emissions) and that people just use them as regular ICE vehicles. And I have seen used plug-ins on sale that still have charge cables in factory plastic bags. But with synthetic fuels coming they sure would make sense. Depends on the advances on battry tech.
If you can't charge at home, then it works just like a normal self-charging hybrid. So it should still get better mileage than standard petrol car, yes?
@@PahaLukki Yes, but some people very much do have the option to charge at home, yet they didn't with a plug in hybrid. That's the reason why plugin hybrids were removed from a taxfree program for electric vehicles in my country.
Battery tech is already at a point we could be at 100% EVs. Charging infrastructure is developing rapidly, as too is standardization and adoption by once gasoline-only establishments - many gas stations are installing EV chargers. Power plants can already handle the rapid growth.
All EVs will happen, and it will happen very soon. Not 10 years time, but 20. This is 90s level of rapid development as far as EVs and AI is concerned, so it will happen.
Serial hybrids, with a purely electric drive train, and ICE used only to generate electricity and provide cabin heat, make a lot of sense. They eliminate the cost, weight, and size of a mechanical transmission, take advantage of regenerative braking, and provide fuel flexibility. They can be charged from a regular wall outlet due to the small battery size.
I bought a Tucson PHEV and for me it is great. Took 1 year to arrive, but really happy with it. I do most of my driving on electric (local journeys) and I can charge at home on a 2.5kw charger. But when I need to go on longer 200+ mile journeys I can just go and run as a hybrid (44mpg) when the battery is empty. If you are running up and down the motorway every day, this may not be the car for you.
I don't think there a fad and I don't think they're a trend. I love electric vehicles but I will always be Team Gas. I'm a firm believer that hybrids are better. I'm also a firm believer that you can have electric vehicles and internal combustion engines coexist at the same time...
Hybrids I am liking as you get the "best" of both worlds.
The can be best of both but also worst of both as there is a duplication of technology and increase maintenance costs.
@@Andrew-zv4fm it's actually also the worse of both worlds... It's heavy so consumes more fuel, it's double the mechanics that can break and needs maintenance.
Plug in Hybrids also generally lack the range on battery to make it worthwhile for many users to even plug it in.
@@rj7855 Plug in hybrids have somewhat worse fuel economy, but it is still way better than non-hybrids, and only slightly worse than regular hybrids, because of how often engines are running in an inefficient regime. If your area has the option of convenient charging, then the worse fuel economy is lessened even more. Even without charging, a neat thing Plug-ins have over regular hybrids is a much larger reserve to put wasted energy into, like on tall mountains where a hybrid has to start engine braking to keep speeds down.
That coexisting just isn't going to happen.
If 80% of the demand for ice cars and fuel drops away a number of things will happen.
Firstly ice cars will become the more expensive ones. Ice now has the economies of scale and ev's don't, that is why they are more expensive. Once that flips ev's will become cheaper then current ice cars because they are just cheaper to build and ice cars will get increasingly expensive as they lose the economies of scale.
Secondly, as more and more ev's hit the road, less and less gas will be sold. And as demand goes down, gas stations will disapear as well, no business can lose 80% of their business and keep existing.
To a point where you might have to drive 30 minutes or so to your closest gas station. And where you will have to plan your trips very carefully to not run out of gas on long trips. Or carry extra cans of gas with you.
Not to mention the increase cost associated with distribution and logistics of gasoline, again those economies of scale.
As relying on gasoline becomes more and more of an annoyance the incentive to switch to ev's for which infrastructure will be optimised will only become larger. At a certain point this will snowball really quickly. One year you wont notice anything and a year later you are wondering where all the gas stations went. That's how this always goes.
And as manufacturers focus on ev's, ice cars that will be sold will stay the same for many many years. Manufacturers just do not refresh their low volume cars and certainly don't invest in new models to serve a quickly declining market.
I live in rural America, there is no infrastructure for EVs here. All this talk about going all electric is just people telling all of us that we don’t have a part in their version of the future. Hybrids seem like a better option, it retains the infrastructure already in place and when included both that braking system that recoups some the energy already expended back into the battery should be a environmental system that would be beneficial to all cars on the road of any type.
Good point.
Hybrid car being a couple different things, electric focused like the Prius and Hybrids like some of the super cars where the electric engine and combustion work in tandem. Tandem might be the best option as having an electric motor do some of the work combined with Regenerative braking makes the car more efficient which is environmentally sound and financially sound without sticking it to anyone
Rural America here also. An hour from any town with an EV charger. They’re coming. Every road trip I do I see many more (did a 3k mile trip a couple months ago, and a 1k last month). If you can charge at home or work, and stay away from the joke ones (less than 250 miles of range), you’ll be fine. Saves me time (maintenance and fueling) and money (half the running cost). You’ll just have to pay twice the road tax of the car you replaced…
Key word, “an”. For the singular richest person in your town that is using it as a status symbol and is not their actual car
@@defoley5 Not really. 3 out of the 4 (depending on the direction you go) are Tesla superchargers. 2 of those are only there to enable cross country trips. The non-Tesla is an Electrify America, plenty of stalls. The last one is a major town. More chargers than I can keep track of. Generally a few wherever I’ll be. I generally don’t use any of them though, unless I’m continuing past there. I can make it there and back, then back again on a charge if I wanted to. So I just wait until I get home since it’s cheaper, and more convenient.
It has gotten better in the years since the modern era of Evs started. We just still live in the middle of nowhere.
No one should be relying on public charging at this point for their sole charging. Only for trips. If you can’t charge where you are going to be parked for several hours (work, school, home, etc.) then it’s not for you yet.
This is where the government really needs to focus if they think they are going to force it in certain areas. Otherwise people will just hold on to their old cars.
Evs aren’t rich people cars anymore. The numbers they’ve been produced in has taken them out being niche vehicles, and just another car. As the volumes increase more, the price will equalize more. Most are new though, and all new cars are ridiculously expensive now. I went used because nothing new was in the budget. There are ones to stay from (half hearted attempts and leafs), but they don’t turn into a pumpkin at midnight like the fairy tails say.
A car, irrespective of how it's powered, has exactly the same footprint on the road and in the garage. In most cities, road capacity is not keeping pace with growth in vehicle numbers. While the private car will always have its place in personal mobility, the future I believe belongs to electric bikes. At least in crowded cities, where garage space and road capacity are limited.
The BIG problem with hybrids is reliability and maintenance. And it's harder to get all the power you can easily get with a pure EV.
Back in 2011 Lexus had no plug-in hybrid, only traditional hybrid. I own a 2011 Lexus RX450h which after 12 years had basically zero issue except a slightly loose driver seat. My friend 2015 Tesla Model X already had the front motor replaced and it did not even had 60’000 kilometers (under warranty but I would be very scared to own an out of warranty Tesla).
Agree about the instant availability of power with no gear than only an EV can provide. Furthermore in winter you’d better not wake up the thermal engine brutally as it could damage it.
I fully agree with your arguments in the video. I first thought that you were going to talk about hydrogen engines. For me, this is the right way to go environmentally. Furthermore, especially for all petrolheads out there, the sound of a hydrogen engine is similar to a fossil fuel engine versus the "meh" sound of an electric one.
I think a phev would work well for me. The jeep I drive now is availale as a phev and I did consider it. However it suffers the same issue as an ev in that it holds no resale value because of battery replacement cost. People simply don't want to buy used vehicles with batteries in them and I don't blame them. For that reason I went with the diesel option. It's current value is considerably higher than it was predicted to be.
You'd probably save the depreciation in fuel cost if you drive it a lot though.
But using a jeep as a commuter is is imo quite weird.
We were an early adopter in the UK, with a Renault Twizy, Citroën C-Zero, Renault Kangoo and Renault Zoe. We have off-street home charging.
At the beginning we got free charging and free parking, but these have now gone, with range anxiety a real killer. With the Zoe, we can achieve 170/180 miles with 60/65mph cautious driving. In winter, this is much less.
Charging at 50kw/h avoids fast charging at 72p/kw, and the battery size of 52Kw means we can use the rapid UK electricity prices at 49p/kwh. We often use up to 10% of the range for the 170 mile journey we make, requiring 46.8kw of charge, which costs £22.93.
So, UK electricity charges, fuelled by the high gas prices, is currently 34p/kwh from my utility company. So, charging the Zoe at home costs £18.14 (+standing charge of 46p), for 170 usable miles at motorway speeds = 10.67p per mile. To do a round trip of 340 miles would cost £41.07.
Our Prius PHEV could travel well over 500 miles on £46 of fuel... EV drivers now have to deal with parking charges to use a charger... limitations on how long you can stay plugged into the unit, and time - waiting to use the charge point, length of time needed to charge etc.
The Zoe at 50Kwh rapid charging from 10% remaining range will take 1hr 20mins to 100%. With a 52kw battery, you need all the range you can get, or range anxiety kicks in, and you drive slower. With a PHEV, you get none of that anxiety.
I have owned electric vehicles since the late 1990s. My first electric vehicle was a Destiny2000 converted Pontiac Fiero by Solar Electric Engineering of Santa Rosa, California. It used lead acid batteries and only 50 mile range. For a car to go to and from work and do arends it was great. I charged it using a 110v outlet at my home. It cost me about $7.50 a month to charge/fuel. I later leased a Chevy Volt in 2011 and the unlimited range it afforded me by its range extender motor allowed me to take it to my in-laws halfway across the United States. This was a great feature, but I only used it once during the entire 3 year lease period. For all practical purposes my Volt was used as an electric car. Apart from the unnecessary trip half way across the country to show it off to my in-laws (I could have flown there and back for less money and a lot less time) I used about a tank and a half of gasoline. The Volt actually did that start up on its own thing to make sure the gas was OK on me. Hearing the engine start on its own startled me, but it flashed a message on the dashboard telling me what it was doing so I calmed down. What the Volt and Destiny2000 taught me was that I didn't need the range extender engine. I could easily live with a Nissan, Leaf, so I bought one after the lease on the Volt was finished.
Now, I live in a rural area of the country and range is a much bigger issue. Even though most of my travel is within the 70 mile range of my now 10 year old Nissan, Leaf, distances between destinations is just at the edge of comfort. My wife experiences range anxiety much more than I do, but her anxiety limits what we do with the Leaf. We have a gas SUV because the practicality is important for rural life, but I hate using it. However, everything is changing. Electric SUVs and pickups are now available and the ranges are 3 time more than with my Nissan, Leaf or even more.
The only thing we need to do is get the infrastructure right. We have to think of it in a completely different way than what we did with gasoline, and in the way we have done charging up to this point. For homeowners charging since it is done at home will be a non-issue. On a daily basis nearly all of us travel less than 32 miles. If you can charge at home the only time you are going to need to charge outside of home is on very long trips beyond the range of your vehicle. With charging locations set up 50 miles apart you would only need some 5000 DC Fast Charging locations nationwide. Fast charging needs to be standardized at over 250 kilowatts for both cars and stations. For apartment dwellers DC fast charging needs to be more concentrated when in cities. The DC fast chargers need to be located near shopping opportunities, dining, places where you can spend a half hour and not be stuck in your EV waiting for the charge to be finished. However, remember that city apartment dwelling comes with one incredible advantage for EV ownership, and that is that destinations are close, so a 250 mile range may last you a week or more. I charged up my 50 mile electric car every night with a 110v outlet, but my daily use was never more than 20 miles. So a 250 mile range EV would mean that I would only need to charge once every 10 days or so, leaving room at the top and bottom for a healthier battery. Apartments with parking lots or indoor garages need to provide reserved spaces with level 2 chargers, of course paid for by the tenant through their lease agreement for the space and their electricity through their electric bill.
I wanted very much for GM to keep producing the Chevy Volt. I loved my Volt. It was a great car. Looking back on my lease of it, my Volt ended up being like training wheels so I could make the next step into an all electric BEV. However, from a manufacturer's point of view, in the long run, as batteries become cheaper and cheaper, making an all electric vehicle will be much cheaper to produce (only one drivetrain) than producing an extended range internal combustion engine and electric motor combo vehicle.
@@RossHall-UK I've owned a few conversions over the years. They are nothing like purpose built, EVs from the planning onward EVs. My converted Fiero Destiny2000 went 50 miles on a charge with a 26 kW battery, z-space frame, plastic skin body paneled, super light, two seater, while my Nissan, Leaf a 5ish seat, 5 door hatch purpose built EV was able to do 100 miles (when new) on a charge on a 24 kW battery. There is a lot more to making an EV hyper-efficient than just the use of electricity. There is the efficiency of the motor, their is the efficiency and energy density of the batteries, the discharge rate, rolling resistance of the tires, the linkages from the motor to the wheels otherwise known as mechanical efficiency, how efficient does the vehicle slip through the air or in other words wind resistance and much, much more. So, if Toyota thinks it can compete just by dropping in an electric drivetrain into any of their cars and call it a day, they are sadly mistaken. The Tesla Model Y is the most efficient electric SUV on the market, and it is 25% more efficient than the nearest competitor another electric SUV. Gasoline SUVs don't make the list. A Tesla model 3 uses less energy at 50 miles an hour than a 100 watt light bulb. That level of efficiency needs to be engineered into the vehicle from conception to production.
While I think EVs have their place I am a bit suspicious of the push to get everyone to buy EV, I do think we need to be looking at other fuel sources as well. I'm not convinced EVs are really any greener than ICE when you factor in the emissions from the manufacture of the EV
True. I went to a brewery for a tour on Friday and the waste materials and gasses from the brewing process were being sold off as bio fuel. This is no new idea as the now king Charles runs his classic Aston Martin off similar alcohol brewing gas based idea fuel and all of the WEC endurance cars are also running a similar fuel. If they brought these cleaner bio fuels out and combined it to be used in hybrid vehicles it would be environmentally friendly and practical.
These are very good questions that are surprisingly seldomly asked. A plug-in with 80 miles range will cover most frequent daily tasks, and would make the present battery production limits profit more people, a lightweight modular generator running on biofuel could supply additionnal range and help calm battery anxiety especially in colder climates. Everybody wins.
An 80 mile range is easily achievable with an EV, why lug around an ICE as well?
Plug in hybrids are a usefull innovation, but once the price of batteries drops they will have been just another 'fad' because it is simpler to have just a battery and electric motors than that and an internal combustion engine also.
I've got a plug in transit hybrid with self charging, absolutely brilliant bit of kit would say though that's its very thirsty on petrol (avg 25 mpg on a run)and quite noisy when the engine sounds like its constantly screaming its head off apart from that rillant especially the self charging.
I think you make a very good point and plug in hybrids do seem to be the practical future at the moment. 2 years ago I bought a used BMW i3 (3 year old lease return) to replace my 6.2L Camaro 🙂(yes, I am a car guy). I live and work in downtown Seattle and I have a driveway, so in many ways I am the ideal EV customer. Short trips, charge at home, cheap, environmentally friendly electric (like Norway a lot of Seattle's electricity is generated from Hydro). However, I still have to have a regular gasoline car when I am leaving the city or when my wife and I take a road trip. Buying used offset a lot of the initial cost concerns. at 3 years the i3 has taken most of its depreciation. I am also a believer that if you want to be really environmentally friendly then used is the right option (reduce, reuse, recycle) because I am not adding anymore of the environmentally unfriendly toxins etc. that come from manufacturing a new EV. (I also have a couple of classic cars, 1979 MGB and a 1987 VW Camper, checkout the Harry's Garage episodes where he makes the case for classics being far less polluting than modern cars). My i3 has a range of 100-120 miles which is great for the city and as plugin hybrids start offering the same electric range plus the ability to go further on their regular engine I would now choose a hybrid over a pure EV. However, the next conversation has to be what technology to use for the combustion portion of the engine?
Exact same situation here in the UK.
Love my i3, but public charging on longer trips is stressful and expensive.
Looking a VW group PHEV saloon for my next car. Most of my miles can still be done on electric and also do longer range trips when required. Plus, it's just more of a 'normal' car; big trunk, five seats, no batteries making the floor really high.
I had a Prius and replaced it by an i3 after a test drive and some deep thought. After test driving the i3, the Prius felt so wrong and broken...
I agree with you that for now I would only recommend an EV to someone who can charge at home or at work. But if you have a charger at home or even better a charger and solar on the roof I can recommend it. I made the switch 2 years ago and never looked back.
I'm on my second EV, charge at home mainly from solar on the roof. With a range of 200miles on a cold day it's been a long time since I've felt that range anxiety.
I've got the exact opposite problem with phevs: I live in a flat, with only on street parking and no public charging within ten miles of home. Because our company car scheme will only let us lease an ev or a hybrid, I'm having to put up with a stupidly small engine for someone who drives well over 30,000 miles a year, that gives terrible fuel economy without battery assistance, and that has a pretty much completely redundant (and expensive, and, ironically, very ungreen because it isn't used!) electric drive system attached...
I miss my 2 litre turbo diesel that would do over 60mpg.
I've been watching your channel since the beginning, and I love what you produce. Here's my take on this subject. I live in Plymouth UK. The main reason why I would have an EV is because I like tech and gadgets, and I'd love an EV because of all the little computerised toys that come as part of an EV. In an ideal world, I'd have the tech of a Tesla, or Polestar, etc in a car with a petrol engine, but that doesn't seem to happen.
So as I have no off-street parking where my house is, if I bought an EV, I'd also have to pay to have a drive installed in my garden, just so when I charge the EV, the cord isn't draped across a public footpath to my car. Yes, the range would be ok on a normal day, as I usually drive about thirty to forty miles daily, commuting to work, doing the weekly shopping, etc. But I also have relatives that live about six hundred miles away from me, which makes driving to visit in an EV a bit more of a faff than in the old diesel car I have now.
I like the idea you put forward about plug-in hybrids, but still have the charging cord problem I mentioned earlier. What needs to happen is for the charging of EV's to catch up with tech the one-hundred-year-old combustion engine. Basically, the reason why regular car drivers don't get range anxiety is they can pull into a station, of which there are many, and fuel the car in a matter of minutes. Minutes, not tens of minutes.
Mind you, imagine this. The car has never been invented. and a guy, such as yourself, tries to sell his idea for a personal mobile vehicle. "It can take you anywhere you want to go. It can travel at 100 MPH. But you have to fill up a tank with this really explosive, flammable liquid for it to go!" Modern health and safety rules would never allow a car to be sold now, if they'd never been invented.
I think what may ultimately swing the tide towards EV is reliability and maintenance. Yes EVs still have brakes and other hydraulics and movable parts but not having to deal with an internal combustion engine is a very nice positive. If we evolve brakes and batteries to become lifetime items of the car, then even better.
Today however, I do agree. I would be looking at the Prius or Prius Prime. This will be the way for the next 5 years at least.
Batteries already last the life time of the car for a well designed EV. Current estimates just published indicate that the average pack loss at the point where a typical car is scrapped in the USA is only 12% of the pack capacity. The pack failure rate (including fires etc), is less than 10% of the failure rate of ICE. As for brakes, I bought a used EV 7 years ago. When I asked the Tesla representative about the condition of the brakes, they just laughed and told me "dunno - we've never had to change one yet". I'm now on 95,000 km and still same set of original brake pads which probably have more than 50% wear left. So, I'd say that in my case, brakes are close to "lifetime". Amsterdam taxis switched to Tesla in 2015 and report over 400,000 km per battery, and approximately 25% of the brake pad changes compared to previous ICE taxis.
@@Jfre2 True. Until you realize that the world went from 100% horse to 100% ICE in about 20 years. Most places, more like 10 year. The Model S came out in 2014. 9 Years ago. So it's going absolutely slower than it could be, and it's not electricity infrastructure that's slowing it down. It's still taken as a given that households need fast chargers and electricians will happily install expensive chargers for anyone that will ask. The practical reality is that 2.5kW at home (a standard outlet) is adequate for 99.9% of charging needs overnight. With smart infrastructure at about 50c per installation of electronics, a motivated grid operator could control charge times and balance load - at least until 50% EV uptake even with existing infrastructure. Everything can be impossible, if proposed to be done badly enough. Combine that with the fact it takes about 5% of the effort to spread misinformation, as it does to correct it, you have an almost trivally easy task of keeping vested interests profits flowing.
As for being magically maintenance free, I can only talk from my own, and personal friends experience. Maybe we all just got lucky and have magic cars. Lucky I have a few classic ICE cars to keep my spanner skills sharp. Fun to drive on a sunny weekend to the local car meet, but as a means to get me from A to B (including interstate), it's gonna be zero maintenance electric for me, every time.
I agree with your conclusion.
I have had a BMW i3 Rex for 8 years, and recently needed to refresh our other car which was a diesel we use for long journeys. We opted for the Rav4 plug-in hybrid.
There isn't currently much difference in running in electric Vs petrol, but I do like not having tail pipe emissions driving round my city, which is what it does 90% of the time, but also being able to do long journeys without depending on public charging is a huge stress reliever.
Great editorial... love your show x 10
Thx
I would like a Compressed air hybrid, PSA were developing a car in the early 2000's. Then it all went quiet and its not even spoken about now.