The many, MANY failed 4-door Porsches (including the Porsche 989)
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- Опубліковано 23 лют 2023
- Porsche is known for fast sports cars, but you might be surprised to know that in 2022 4 door cars made up more than 8 out of every 10 cars Porsche sold. Yet 20 years earlier, it only sold 2 door cars, with cramped rear seats only suitable for small children. That fun Porsche you had in your 20s could be used in a pinch when the kids came along, but those kids grew and your Porsche became impractical. Customers fled to other car brands and many never returned. Porsche needed to change that.
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Erratum: The 1955 Lincoln Capri I tag it more like a 1956 or 1957 model.
Unforgivable 😂
Would be good if you made a video on all of Porsche's VW or Audio collaborations. The 914 lives with the not a real porsche stigma yet per your video, the Cayenne was a group collaboration. And from my understanding so were Porsche 928, 944, 968. The 356 and 912s also had VW engines.
Could help dispel the stigma and clarify Porsche's history of collaboration.
That 989 is a beautiful car even today, it kept the shape of 911.
Sure, some headspace is sacrificed for that long sloping line, but when you look at "4 door coupe" craze from early 2000's, or 4 door coupe SUVs, you can say that Porsche was waaaay ahead of its time.
Then Mercedes came along later with the first gen CLS to make the "4 door coupe" thing work.
And I believe Infiniti came up with the "SUV coupe" thing with the FX 45, which BMW later did with the X6 and was more popular.
If making it look pretty was the only priority for a 4-dr, 4-seat 911, then your idea would be a good one. 🙂
However, in the real world, there are things called buyers and money and products.
If you want to spend money to make something that people will actually like and want and buy and use (and hopefully buy another next time) your 4-dr, 4-seat car really needs to comfortably accommodate 4 adults.
I know, I know - the 90s were crazy times. It was a wild idea, wasn't it..! 🤪
One of the wild things was a huge economic slow-down. Two, in fact - and even a recession in some nations! In the late 80s and early 90s, Porsche sold f-all cars. Few sales = tiny profits = no big money for new idea, especially flawed, and untested vehicle development.
I never understood why they didn't build the 4door based on the 993. It looked so much better than the Panamera. Probably Porsches finances at the time didn't allow it. Unimaginable today, bit they almost went bust in the 90ies.
Yeah, Panamera looks quite awful. They shouldve just went with station wagon Panamera from the very start, especially since they got styling down for 1st gen Cayenne. 4-door 911 could be done more in RX-8 style with rear suicide doors and longer wheelbase.
@@Kacpa2 they've finally figured out the panamera wagon just in time for it to go away thanks to the taycan sport/cross turismo.
@@romulus_ And after they stopped offering a manual transmission, they have the worst timing and decision making possible...
The video details exactly why they didn't.
993 is my fave style 911
I love how the original Panamera looks, and the 989 concept for that matter.
Fastbacks are hard to do well, and I guess a lot of people find the quirky, but I like them.
Absolutely! The moment I saw the panamera it struck me as something really beautiful.
I always liked the original Panamera, initially in a "it's funky but I like it" way but over time it's aged into a really nice design. I also think the 1st gen Panamera was a great size; they went full-on S-class/7-series size in the 2nd gen but the 1st gen was a great "tweener" - a bit bigger than an E/5, smaller than a 7/S but with comparable luxury to those, plus more performance to go into that smaller body. The current ones are great cars I'm sure (if you can afford to maintain them!) but I miss that 1st gen size for an aspirational owner-driven luxury car.
I always love the Panamera design, back in time when was released it was a little bit different from all the family cars on the market
As a teen, I remember seeing drawings of the 989 in a car magazine. I couldn't believe how great the car looked. Many years later, the Panamera came out. On photos, it looked awkward but the first time I saw it in real life, I really liked it. In 2017 I bought the last model of the first generation of the Panamera. I prefer the first gen to the current one. It looks more special, the rear windows look so cool, the tail lights are far more original than the second generation flat bar. And the butt of the car, while controversial and not great looking from some angles, has this "F... you" look that I think makes this car great. And the interior is phenomenal, again much nice than the new model.
I don't usually like 4 door cars when there's a 2 door version available but the first time I saw the Panamera I thought it looked amazing. I still think it's absolutely gorgeous.
Irony is that two door / three door coupes can hold value pretty well despite being impractical. In particular certain Mercedes.
When they are low mileage weekend cars then yes. However when people buy more practical 4 door SUVs they tend to be driven more and end up with a higher mileage.
And Mercedes Coupes are very rare compared to 4 door sedans.
Actually more than Mercedes. Even Mazda MX5 Miata and Toyota GR86 / 86 hold value better than a lot 4 and 5 doors.
@@gteixeira An SUV is never more practical
@@an-dr6eu can´t agree more, at least here in europe a Cayenne is a pita almost everywhere
Perhaps a video on the VAG group would shed some light on a few things. Obviously both companies had decades of interwoven relationships, but Porsches woes in the 80s and 90s sounds familiar to Volkswagen in the 1970s. Primarily due to reliance on one very successful platform, ie the Beetle and 911 respectively.
As an earlier video from Big Car showed, all the attempts to replace the Beetle with a new model using similar mechanicals proved to be a *BAD* idea. It was just easier to just drop that idea and go with a modern transverse FWD platform, one that became the Volkswagen Golf of 1974.
Great video! I think Porsche has sort of repaired the Panamera's looks in recent years, but the Taycan is gorgeous, showing how far off the Panamera remains.
I can definitely see that, the first gen is hideous. The second gen looks a lot more refined.
9:13 I wouldn't really say it was. Keep in mind that during the development process of this 4 door Porsche, they were building the 400E and 500E (later E400 and E500) for Mercedes-Benz, they even helped with the development of those cars. It made sense for them to do that.
they also build and had a hand on development of the audi rs2
400e too? ive never known that
@missionna8 the 500E was built to compete with the M5, the 400E was built to compete with Lexus.
was porsche building the 400E as well? Do you have more information on that?
@coscorrodrift according to Wikipedia, "Porsche also constructed the chassis for the 400 E, which was in essence identical to the 500 E's chassis."
ive always loved how the panamera looked. very angular in the front and calmer in the back. it was very stylish and modern for its time back in 2009. to me its gorgeous
Such a well researched and presented video. Thanks for putting in the usual hard work.
IMO, the current gen Panamera looks quite good. I drove a GTS and it is a great car. Porsche's first gen efforts for any of their current line-up were a bit dodgy but they steadily improve them. The 996 looked awful but what came after improved each successive generation.
I think that they rightfully waited, the acceptance of expensive luxury cars in their main markets wasn't there but has increased significantly after 2000.
Always loved the 989. Also I never had a problem with the Panamera's looks. I prefer the original camera angle btw.
i think the panamera looks lovely. its such a timeless design. its just as pretty to me as the e65 7 series
or the Fiat multipla for that matter
@@Klopcyna eh i dont like the multipla
That H50 would make an awesome hearse
I never thought the Panamera was ugly ... not saying I wanted one, but it wasn't the looks that would put me off.
The Cayenne, on the other hand, was a minger with a capital M. And a capital I. And a capital N, G, E and R.
The 989 actually looks pretty good in side profile, the back needs improvement though.
I really appreciate all the research that goes into these - and on a marque I really enjoy, it's a great video! I still wonder how the world would have changed had that Studebaker project actually gone just a little further
I honestly cannot see why they didn't build a four seater much earlier. It would've widened their market share substantially, which really would've been good when they were low on money in the 90s.
probably company culture. a bunch of old timers who couldn't fathom a sports car manufacturer making anything but that. they had to be saved from themselves in the 90s.
Very simple a combination of Cashflow and capital expenditure requirements. Simply put they would able to reach 15000 units p a and would inevitably went bankrupt
Customers were less willing to buy trash then. The best selling Porsche model nowadays is the Cayenne. 80s and 90s consumers were not that stupid. Now, they're so stupid that they'll buy fake land rovers over sedans.
They had the 968. For awhile it was probably a huge debate inside Porshaaaa, they could have made the weirdest grand tourer based on that platform.
Sometime before 1955, a 356 engine and chassis tuning with a stock VW body. A German Lotus-Cortina, a decade before the British one.
Thank god you use images to illustrate every car. All of those 9-hundred numbers being thrown around couldn't get any more confusing 🤣
The nominal two rear seat area in the 911 is actually very useful. You can put lots of luggage back there, on the floor and on the seats; and its easy to access. The "Frunk" space is quite limited, but OK for most shopping etc. I actually don't use it - I just throw my sh!t into the back. As an option, you can have the rear seats removed entirely, but if you need a load carrier, buy a load carrier.
I always thought they should offer it with the seats removed and fit some sort of a luggage carrying space
@@TheMacz69 I think that's what happens. You get a liner, rubber floor mats with luggage straps and a cargo net in lieu of the deleted rear seats. I actually have not personally seen this, but I think I saw it as an option.
In my early 20s, I rode in the back of a 944. Never again.
Eventually Porsche got the 4-door models that they wanted and needed: the Cayenne and the Panamera. Both have been very successful.
Extremely well done and informative video running at just the right pace 🙂
Crossovers have destroyed everything. I miss the days of station wagons/estate cars. They're better in every way
Porsche is now more of a crossover of brand these days. It's what keeps the lights on and probably what most young kids will think when they hear Porsche as time goes on as it's the only thing most ever see.
I really like the Panermara. Totally spelled that wrong.
That 989 looked much better than the Panamera.
Very interesting! I remember that when the first 4-door Porsche came out, it seemed like blasphemy. A good solution to not make it look like a stretched 911, but a thing of its own.
Its called the Volkswagen parts bin. VW are notorious for platform sharing and they did it here with Porsche. Tiguan/Macan and Taureg/Cayenne
Porsche 4-door existed until the 21st century. They were just called Tatra.
Great topic and great video.
Oh 989 is the coolest panamera that never was
It's nice to find out about the other Porsches.
Thank you!
Great stuff, always like your vids and info given
Excellent history lesson. Thanks
Excellent as usual
Great story - Thanks for posting as always - Very informative video !
Great to see images from the Porsche museum in Stuttgart. This stylish building (easily accessed via the city's S-Bahn system) contains the wackiest Porsche of all time - a hybrid from 1904. The idea was sound, but the technology would not catch up with the theoretical concept for another 80 years.
Very interesting video thanks
Brilliant video, extremely informative. Keep up the great work! 👍
Fascinating subject and superb video! Excellent presentation and quality 👍
Amazing content, as always.
Another video, I didn't think I needed to watch, but was so wrong!! Thanks for the effort and excellent research.
Correction! That Lincoln Capri at 1:13 is actually a 1957 Lincoln, not '55 model. :)
Thanks - I've pinned a correction.
It’s impossible to use large scale manufacturing techniques for smaller production runs. That’s what always gets them. GM was smart in making Corvette a separate division to allow them to think differently than the core engineering and manufacturing guys. Porsche has struggled since their inception. Hopefully, they will continue to survive from their larger benefactors. They are great cars indeed.
Another very interesting video, thank you very much!
Thanks for this, Big Car. I learned a lot and saw some Porsche prototypes that I never knew existed.
Porsche hoping to replace the 911 cars with a 928 line-up kind of reminds me of BMW coming with K100s and K75s, then the originals outlasting those.
Great video. Thank you
Being a miserable old fart I do appreciate the work you put into these videos for my brief stint of enjoyment...
You know how folks have bucket list stuff, but it’s usually about going places; well, for me it’s own a 928.
Love how they look.
I think spurred on by having a Matchbox model of one when I was really young.
Gorgeous looking thing.
Not so sure about that -4 version though.
Wonderful video Andy, tons of facts and stats in it, which I really appreciate!
I know how you feel about 928's. Almost bought a really clean early one about 10-12 years ago, but decided against it at the time, then got to watch local prices for them double almost overnight.
I, too, loved the 928 and collected Matchbox cars.....I had fifteen different variations of the Matchbox 928....the metallic cocoa color was perfect, if not exactly sporty. In real life, I loved the funky "op art" interior fabric of the 928. Sadly, the funky fabric was not entirely durable, the light-colored segments of the design practically disintegrating is heat and sunlight.
@@pyrexmaniac gosh, I remember that colour of Matchbox 928 all too well.
Exactly as you said, not sporty, kinda classy though.
might need to have a look through my old Matchbox cars again, see what I still have 🙂
@@stuartleckie Which matchbox cars do you have? My favourite die casts are the Skyline, Eclipse, 68 Mustang and gold 350z. Most hot wheels.
Excellent, very informative and interesting video. Proximity to camera is better in previous videos IMHO.
New camera. I'm trying a (slightly) different style.
As always, these videos are hugely informative, entertaining, and reliably-well researched. I was not aware of a Studebaker/Porsche association early on, and I am quite surprised that the model was given a "no go" for looking "outdated". And of all people, I am surprised that it was John Delorean who was behind the decision only because he was an engineer. That being said, his talent was renowned for the magic that he brought to Pontiac, so if he was instrumental in canceling the project, it was likely for good reason. Not a Porsche fan myself, although some of these four door versions look pretty attractive, especially the silver car in the static introductory photo. The 911 variations remind me of the Panhard Dyna.
The 989 looked so much better than the 2009 Panamera! Should have just kept the shape. Anyways, I’m very interested in the Lotus Type 125/Exos story. A F1 track day car would have been so cool. Too bad it was a failure. Can you do a story on it?
I remember reading about the 989 in car magazines. I was looking forward to seeing one.
Alas, it was not to be. Ahead of its time.
As always, you are well researched, interesting and presentation is spot on. (I always liked the Panamera BTW..😅)
Nice one, I wasn't aware of the 928-based cars. No mention of the Taycan though? Separate video maybe?
Maybe in the future, but it's a bit new for my channel.
Don’t know many people in their 20s buying Porsches….
It would have been an interesting addition.
I was a studio engineer in the studio working on that project from clay up in 1990 then due to the Gulf war 1 the Americans Ford GM Chrysler were advertising "Don't buy German cars as they will not join us in this war" They could not join in as their post WW2 constitution would not allow them. This drove Porsche almost to the wall as they were selling 75% of the 911s into the US market, so I was laid off. I went back in 2000-2 working on the Cayenne instrument panel for the supplier Textron.
Who wants to be doing 150mph with yours kids in the back? One small mishap and you've wiped out the entire family....
Haven‘t seen the vid fully yet, but Jaguar had some issues with the E-Type 2+2 as well….and that was a 2 door 2+2. Not a 4 door.
I saw the four-door 928 at the Porsche museum in Stuttgart years ago and loved it, but I doubt it'd have achieved any kind of commercial success in the intended market.
I really enjoy your videos.
Still waiting for your Hillman Hunter story! 😅
Porsche and four doors in one sentence will never compute for me. ;)
The irony was, Porsche was commissioned by Mercedes to engineer and assemble their W124 500E 4 door and 2 door variants during their crisis years and underutilised factory. So it technically can be called Porsche's first 4 door.
At least with the cash they received and with the Boxster sales, it helped their development for the Cayenne
I like the 4 door Porsche Panamera Sportwagon turbo diesel as it was roomy for 4 adults if you specified the four individual seat option, and just about takes 5 adults at a pinch with the standard 60/40 split foldable bench seat. It was quite practical and economical over the fuel thirsty petrols.
I really hated how the Cayenne and Panamera looked when they were released but clearly that's where the market has gone, especially regarding the Cayenne.
Last week i delivered an order to a home in a gated community. There's a new Corvette in the driveway, a BMW SUV, and 3 Porsche Cayennes.
I learned a lot watching this video. I drive a 2011 Panamera S. It is a great car.
The 1st gen Panamera is still ugly as sin because one man at 6"1 had to fit in the back seats. Why couldn't he have been 5"6? Also, I think if there was a 1st gen Sport Turismo, the Panamera would have been far better received.
Beauty is subjective and I have always liked the Panamera... nothing wrong with the looks
@@frederickvondinkerberg7721 Beauty may be subjective but good design is not.
@@wasdwasdwwasd A-Frickin Men
Jova R
Matthias Muller made the right decision to make the Porsche wide and long,because the average German is usually tall and huge.
@@wasdwasdwwasd yes that is also subjective, you don't seem to understand what that means
Good video, thank you. One remark on the 928. The car was very good. It were the clients who wanted to stay with the 911. I never understood why, after all the 911 is a fundamentally flawed design (as LJK Setright commented many decades ago) with its engine behind the back axle!
In the late 60's or early 70's an issue of Road & Track featured a 4 door Porsche on the front cover. The car was a one off made by someone in the US as I recall.
Conversely, I’m surprised they haven’t used the Panamera as the starting point for a new 928.
Tatra did a four seater 911 before the 911 existed! That said, the 989 is like a Mandela effect MK1 Panamera. I could easily be convinced Porsche launched it beside the boxter if I wasn't paying attention!
Well done, as usual.
Would love to see a Lotus Elan story at some point
That would be a fun on to do. I've added it to the (very long) list.
That 989 tho, looks sleek asf.
I love my Panamera, its a first gen, and I understand some of the criticism, but I think as long as the spoiler is up it looks good.
928 estate is hideous
the ferrari 330 gt shooting brake looked a lot better.
The 550 Shooting Brake looked fantastic! As well as the FF and GT4C Lusso.
The problem with the Panamera (and the Macan) - no manual gearbox (only 146 first Gen Panameras had manauls). These are cars for dentists, not drivers.
Not mentioned in the Video: In the late 60's, there was a successful one-off 4 door 911, known as the Troutman-Barnes Porsche, that was even tested by Road & Track. Even that looked better than the Panamera 😆
Great video, no mention of the 500E or RS2 collaborations although I guess that's all they were.
Porsche is a two door sports car company at its heart and always should be. This mass market move to SUV's and ugly saloons is disappointing.
I love Porsches. In particular I am a huge fan of the Panamera. I enjoy driving them in Need for Speed games.
3:16
😮
I see that Porsche Boxter prototype in the top right😲👍
Great video, upvite
German Auto Motor Sport wrote at the tim that the rear engine 8 cylinder car did not make it due to lack of refinement, but rather they wanted it to be air cooled and could not resolve the cooling issues.
These were actually pretty nice!
I don’t know a lot about Porches but in recent years I have found myself looking at the Cayenne and Panamera and liking them. It must of been a brave soul to sign off on both those models.🤞🤞🤞
Ferdinand Piech, Grandson and Their to Ferdinand Porsche.
the rebirthed VW Audi Porsche group were his Late life achievement.
mazda was the best at making sporty 4 door cars. the rx8 and the 323 looked amazing
Great video. Subscribed! Wanted to know more about bmws bid for Porsche as you mentioned in the video. Couldn’t find any good google searches
The link below is where I got it. The article is from Steve Saxty (the Ford book guy) and I trust him to get it right:
www.hagerty.com/media/automotive-history/how-porsches-secret-989-sedan-went-from-savior-to-failure/
@@BigCar2 ty for the reply and the link. amazing channel!
There was also in the 90‘s a 928 Station, produced by Arzt, what would help Porsche out of the mess, but they probably not interested, some where sold as a aftermarket rebuild and they have been really nice..😊
I think you got the spelling wrong.
Might be???
I am of the same opinion as Clarkson on Porsche. Another great video, but I'd really like to see you do one on VAG.
It bugs me how manufacturers insist on 4/5 door versions of their small cars and claim it is for practicality. The doors end up so small they may as well be cat flaps.
Why did you leave out the best one; the Taycan? What a car!
Porsche is pure love!
Exotics Racing in Las Vegas uses the Cayenne as their track familiarization vehicle. It's not a sports car, but it's about as close as an SUV can get.
We had a 4 door Porsche, it was called Mercedes 500E, also a Porsche stationwagon, the Audi RS2 :)
I like the 989, shame it wasn't put in to production
Watching, waiting to get to the Panamera. Realised I had completely forgotten the Cayenne
Panamera's tortoise back was a styling nod to the cult Volkswagen 411 of the late sixties and seventies
swanky new intros man
what made you adopt those?
this is your second video I see with one of 'em
I'm curious but I like what I see
keep it up, man 🙂
I've been doing something similar since the Triumph Stag video in 2019. I got the idea from an RMC video.
I had no idea Porsche had tried to make bigger cars for so long. I remember seeing the 989 concept in am issue of Car magazine in the early 1990s and seeing it now, it was a forerunner of the BMW Gran Coupes and the Mercedes CLS. But maybe the market wasn't ready for that yet. I also remember around the time the Cayenne came out, one of the car magazines said a focus group Porsche held discovered that most Porsche owners in the US had a Ford Explorer as their second car. No surprise that the Cayenne and the other SUVs they make now do so well and to some degree I see aspects of the 989 design in the Panamera, although I guess current safety regulations might have influenced that so it's not as pretty.
Great video, love the behind the scenes/development vehicle stuff.
Would it of been to much of a risk to design a different body shape rather than just trying to elongate the 911? None of the designs seemed to have the correct proportions.