Rocket Powered Medieval arrows vs Armour!
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- Опубліковано 7 січ 2025
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Rockets were used in the eastern world for warfare from at least the 15thC, but not in Europe. However we used them a little in the 16thC, but not fitted to arrows....
I am certain someone would have tried it, so now it is my turn. Let's make medieval style rocket powered arrows live again! But how do they perform and why might they have wanted them? There is only one way to find out and that is to make some and try them out for real.
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Arrow data
Type. weight. V at launch. V at 60m. E at 60m. Mom. at 60m Distance
Untethered arrow 90gm. 44ms. 35ms. 55J. 3.15kg.m/s. 200m
Dummy rocket arrow. 128gm. 32ms. 13ms. 11J. 1.7kg.m/s. N/A
Live rocket arrow 128gm. 29ms. 74ms. 350J. 9.5kg.m/s. 490m*
*estimated
Speculative numbers based on estimated speed at 90m
Type. weight. V at launch. V at 60m. E at 60m. Mom. at 90m Distance
Live rocket arrow 128gm. 29ms. 95ms. 578J. 12.2kg.m/s. 750m*
*estimated
I have to apologise and say that I knew about the hwacha, but I was unfamiliar with the amazing range of rocket weapons that were regularly deployed by the Chinese in particular. It appears that they managed to overcome many of the cost/logistic issues that I assumed were present when I was looking from a Western European viewpoint. I can only apologise for any misleading statements I made and than the comments section for highlighting this. My favourite was man portable multi shot launchers in the 14thC! Amazing!
Tom, if you're interested in details (proportions etc) about Chinese rocketry there is a blog named "great Ming military" which covers the issue in several post. Just google great ming military rocket-weaponry-of-ming-dynasty
If it hasn't already been recommended in this thread (there are A LOT of comments), a good general overview is Fang-Toh Sun's paper "Early Rocket Weapons in China." If it has already been recommended, it's still a good paper.
there were also smaller more portable variants like the "nest of bees" or the yi wo feng with 28 rocketarrows or so which looked basically like a small wooden rocket pod with multiple slings that one could hold with both hands and aim from the hip while another guy ignited the salvo, accuracy was not that important since this was an artillery weapon meant to be shot at large formations of troops, But one could also use it sort of like a shotgun, so if you launched a salvo of 28 rocketarrows directly at an incoming enemy combatant, then surely at least 5 or so, should be able to hit him, If accuracy was really that relevant, then no one would've bothered with the musket & only used rifles
@@aburoach9268 Quantity has a quality all its own.
Also, now I kinda want Tod to do a hwacha/nest of bees. I know it's a outside of his idiom, but would still be cool to see.
I want to see you make the man portable one. That'd be a fun show!
The video I never knew I wanted, but desperately needed
Rocket arrow launched from a 160 lbs monster?
First arrow in orbit?
Y agree !!!!
This is how I feel about almost every video on this channel!
I continue to learn so much and yet, Tod still manages to surprise me with the most (seemingly) random and epic videos!
Make the collab happen!
Thanks for dropping by Dash and glad you enjoyed it.
"How could I resist?" Please don't resist. For our sake.
I like not resisting. Made another fun one with the trebuchet the day after......I couldn't resist that one either
@@tods_workshophow old are you and you haven't done this yet? I did that as a teenager without gay protective shields
I do believe reason number one might have been the most important reason to do this kind of thing. Well done sir.
Have you heard of the Huolongjing? "The Fire Dragon Manual". Compiled in the 1300s, around the time of the Hundred Years War, illustrated guide to black powder weapons in China at the time, mostly bombs, rockets, spurt tubes and fire lances.
is that the one with all the illustrations, with just black ink on "white" paper?
I have now! Thanks and that sounds fascinating and just popping off to try and find it. Rats - can't find a copy. Does anyone have a pdf they would like to share?
@@tods_workshop i did a quick search and the library of congress has it as a pdf, but in the original chinese, so you might have to get someone to translate it!
@tods_workshop The US Library of Congress website has the book Huolongjing in both pdf and scanned images form. You will need someone to translate it properly, but you can use Google Translate (eg. scan & upload images) to get a very rough translation.
Medieval bolter.
I KNOW it's about to get epic when Tod is giddy about the experiment!
Thank you for creating some of the best content on the internet, Tod.
750 meters?!
Imagine a whole army of soldiers shooting these rocket arrows at 500m away from their enemies!
Terrifying!
Thank you - very kind
Rocket powered arrows were used in massive quantities in China and Korea (Nest of Bees, Hwacha, Fire Carts), where gunpowder was cheap (at least in China) as all the ingredients can be domestically produced. No need to shop ingredients from other countries in order to make gunpowder.
Secondly, things like the hwacha and the fire cart aren’t slow to reload, at least not when compared to a musket. The reason is that when one frame is fired, they replace the entire frame with another frame that’s already pre-packaged with fire arrows. They don’t need to insert new fire arrows one by one into the frame. It’s like the Nest of Bees, when you fire one bundle you just grab another bundle. You don’t package the fire arrows during battle, that’s done by the artificers before soldiers even march to battle.
Thanks and lots of content I didn't know - appreciated and sorry if I mislead at all.
If you think about it where do you store arrow? In quivers. How do you transport them? On a cart. What is a Hwacha? A giant quiver on a cart. So the Hwacha is both the storage crate and the launcher. If they were loosely packed in a barrel or box it would risk damaging them.
@@MrMonkeybat On a related note, I think it might be a mistake to assume Hwachas were only used at long range. Arrows shot from a bow were most effective at
The Chinese even purposely drilled the holes in their arrow launchers to be at random angles, as they recognized it worked best as a mass terror weapon with the ability to punch through armour
Completely fine, glad to help!
Anyway, as an example, general Qi Jiguang’s military manual says that, in terms of gunpowder weapons:
A single mobile cannon fort battalion would have 3109 men , of which 2048 are combat troops. They have 258 light cannons, 8 great general cannons, 512 muskets, and 15360 rocket arrows.
A single cavalry battalion had 2699 men, of which 2160 are combat troops. They have 432 muskets, 432 arrow-shooting handguns, and 13000 rocket arrows.
A single infantry battalion had 2972 men, 1080 muskets, and 6480 rocket arrow devices.
How does this channel just keep getting better
By living our craziest dreams!
Thanks and glad you enjoy it
Mr. Tod, can you try putting a counterweight at the place where the nock normally is (nail something into the arrow shaft), and test its result (flight stability)? That's how Ming Chinese did to improve accuracy, among other things. And yes, combine it with the fire arrow a few episodes back too for that matter, to make a complete historical package.
Also, the high arching salvo like that Korean hwacha was most likely for spectacle, or perhaps modern people got too influenced by faulty Hollywood longbowmen raining down arrows in high arc and replicated hwacha the same way. Rocket arrow, like its unpowered counterpart, is best being shot straight forward.
Yep, counter balance and increase the size of the Fletching until It resembles rocket fins, like Tod says, "they weren't stupid" they understood aerodynamics from the perspective of arrows/ bolts and shur a day modern rocket is essentially just a BIG Arrow going Really Really Really Fast
@@podgem-l4t Putting weight behind the fletching can destabilize the arrow rather than restabalizing. Did that with a crossbow bolt made out of arrow with a field point, used a rabbit blunt on the back to prevent the end from splitting due to the crossbow string. It made the demonstration of the Cosgrave look accurate.
@@Lee-vk1xy In the case of rocket it is already super front heavy due to the rocket motor though.
@@戰國春秋 True. I would think that would tend to impact range rather than accuracy but am certainly not an expert.
@@Lee-vk1xy I am not 100% certain myself, I really hope Mr. Tod can test it out, as archery physics is quite complex.
In general higher F.O.C. (Front-of-center) arrow, i.e.heavier weight at the front should be better for stability and trajectory, so your crossbow bolt veering off-course due to lowered FOC is natural. However I have no idea if that is applicable for things like rocket arrow.
when you're playing warhammer fantasy but you still want a boltgun
I am soo happy to see that I not the only one doing absolutely useless, but very entertaning stupid things. Good job! :)
I can’t overstate how much I love the fact that the content in this channel just keeps getting progressively more unhinged, while also being educational. Never change Tod.
Compelling reasons... "because it's fun" And you have sold me on this video and idea.
The psychological damage of such a weapon coming towards you is not to be overlooked. We saw that in WW1 with the first use of the tank.
Tanks did huge damage and were virtualy invincible. This just fly over and do nothing unless you use large quantity which would be expensive.
@DalHrusk when first used, the tank had a psychological impact on the Germans greater than the physical impact they had on the battlefield as none of their weapons appeared to have any impact on the tanks. Now, imagine seeing smoking arrows coming towards you for the first time and not knowing what they will do to you or howvto combatbthem?. They may not do much physical damage, but a weapon that can kill or injure you when out of range of traditional weapons will strike fear into the hearts of those that face them.
Arrows needed to used in bulk to be effective.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 "none of their weapons appeared to have any impact on the tanks" - meanwhile artillery guys shredding tanks with direct fire like nothing: (marks had REALLY poor armor, even rifle calibers could wound crew behind the armor or even penetrate it with AP bullets, much less field gun)
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 not much in the way of field artillery in the front line, and that were most of the psychological impact was felt. AP bullets came after the first use of the tank.
Nebelwefer
The trick is to get the enemy to hold the line while you fire.
"Jacque, could you hold this string? Yep, pull it taut. No, just ignore Joe Gibbs' great-great-great-great-great grandfather."
If Kerbal Space Program has taught me anything, it's that you gotta make stick at least 3 or 4 rockets on the arrow to make it somewhat stable
real
And then hope the rockets are equal in thrust and alignment...
or a pair of them angled to cause it to spin-stabilise in flight ... I'm sure I've seen middleEastern pics of arrows with multiple _rocket-looking_ things on the front. Maybe I dreamed it.
I would like to see what hussite era firearms could do to plate armor.
Make holes in it. They were quite large calibre ..
He might need a couple of licences before that, but I'm all for it.
Not to mention Medieval plate wasnt as strong as early Modern plate as firearms werent the main consideration when designing it. It was thinner and most often not tempered.
This video should started with 'Let me show its features: ha ha ha '
Notice the safety t-shirt
Mr. Sprave will respond with a video in about a week.
"This is my new, fully automatic, rubber band powered, rocket powered, gatling slingshot arrow shooter, HA HA HA HAA!"
@@IllustriousCrocoduck for sure , for sure
@@IllustriousCrocoduck 🤣 spot on
@@IllustriousCrocoduck and have a bikini-clad model firing it while his wife shakes her head in the background ...
"I've got a pounding heart, and no more excuses."
how beautifully poetic my friend!
I love the pure glee in this video! :D
It's really contagious!
Thanks for that!
Todd, you are exactly right! Someone (perhaps many) MUST have tried it at some point in the past!
Wow, just wow. Many thanks for the upload and living life to the full!
My pleasure on both counts.
Giggling at the shared glee. Just the pick me up I needed after today.
I seem to remember some youtuber who makes videos like this, maybe it was you, thinking about rubber for medieval time and could they have made it out of dandelions or some other plant in europe. Think the comment was made in winter and said that might try doing it next summer.
I think Tod would likely have best shot at trying to make rubber out of european plants with technology medieval people had.
Might also be too much messing about and waste of time, but that would be a result too.
Yes that was Jorg Sprave on my channel. I would love to try, but it seems like a lot of dandelions.
Tod, this was BRILLIANT!!! I was as excited as you and wish I had been there in person. Not many videos can accomplish this.
I lived in Korea twice for a total of seven years and for just over forty years now, a Korean wife. I would like to point out a Korean historical movie "The Divine Weapon (2008)" which you can watch with English subtitles that chronicles Korea's development of rocket powered arrows to combat a threat from China. Perhaps the premise of the show is more legend than fact however, the Korean kingdom at the time included a lot of what is now northeastern China, and some ancient Korean accomplishments have been overshowed by assumptions that all innovations of the time period came from China, although both kingdoms accomplished many innovations and produced great scholarly work over many centuries. In any case, this movie is one of our family favorites. You should give it a watch. Amazon has it as well as others... Cheers Tod.... Joe
a fletched arrow entering the airstream with a high initial speed is probably more accurate than a Congreve stick-rocket, so it might be worthwhile to try a range test in a very large field - loosing (firing?) from a stand could also give an estimate of accuracy. Probably don't want a broadhead on this one
Would love to try this, but really unless I was on a military range, I can't see it being safe
Lad, ask nicely and offer to let them play with your Trebuchet, soldiers are still driven by the very same principles today, and it would be Very co9l
@@tods_workshop or on a large lake maybe?
Always a pleasure watching a man loving his job this much :)
A very interesting video as always.
Hastings, we have a Problem
I absolutely adore the sound the rocket arrow & metal guide wire made together at 11:45-11:47! That sounds like an awesome SFX that could be used for film.
Tod: "Do not try this at home!"
Yes, I was just walking through my fields, wondering what can I do with modern crossbow, historicly accurate arrows, some small rockets and a a few square meters of bulletproof glass
whatever you do, don't do the thing you are thinking of!
@@tods_workshop To late, I'm already in hospital ;-)
@@LuxisAlukard get well soon!
"how'd you end up here?"
"listen, rocket motors, and arrows."
"you wot?"
Saw a video up for Tod's Workshop, and then saw this and tapped so fast 😅
"Good afternoon Will... Yeah, I've destroyed more arrows... Oh, fire and rockets this time... yes, and I tore the fletchings out running it along a wire. It was very cool though. Actually, can I have an extra dozen without heads? I've come across drawings and a recipe for a medieval shaped charge arrowhead. Lets see the breastplate stop that!"
5 more died during the making of this film, but I briefed Will and he is OK with it
@@tods_workshop Oh, I've no doubt! A worthy sacrifice!
Would a shape charge work with black powder? I heard it doesn't explode as violently as modern explosives.
@@No.Good.Nickname Well, I don't know. Probably not, but that shouldn't stop Tod trying!😆
You're right, black powder burns a lot slower than modern powders, and that would certainly effect performance, but if it's only got to punch through 2mm or so of steel, it might still be violent enough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This series of arrows has gained you a sub... i was watching another video and someone commented about your channel which led me to your channel... i love it.... you are a very smart man filled with knowledge and i love your delivery of said knowledge... thank you for the amazing content
My guess is that if it hits the target while still back-blasting, then energy is wasted and the load on the arrow was too big, but if it runs out mid-flight, then the drag from the rocket becomes a bigger burden, so the trick is to get the rocket to expend all its thrust immediately before impact. With that in mind, there would be an arrow optimised for 100 yards range, and another for 60, and another for 200 etc.
It would also be cool if there would be a little explosion at the end of the rocket motor, just to make shure your enemy can't fire the arrow back and deal some damage if the arrow is flying over the enemies army/to make their hand go boom when trying to remove it.
Awesome video❤
Next time Todd "I build Hellstorm Rocket from Warhammer Fantasy and will look how it works!"
Don't forget about safety and i hope you can realize all your ideas 🎉
Tod! Awesome video! This is actually a really helpful piece for me, I've noticed that there are Chinese claims that siege artillery employed by the Mongols in the 13th Century (Triple Bow aka San Gong Chuang Nu 三弓床弩) was capable of throwing a spear sized dart 1.5km. Needless to say, modern reproductions haven't generated nearly enough speed even with fairly powerful prods.
A thought that I've seen suggested and one that I'm becoming more receptive to is that those 1.5km ranges aren't exaggerations; they are evidence of gunpowder turning these into rockets instead of bolts. Awesome video that certainly seems to support this as possible.
I struggle to see how a conventional bow of any type could shoot 1.5km , but interesting thoughts
@@tods_workshop It isn't really a traditional bow type, it is more similar to a Roman Catapulta Dart Thrower
Even so I think it's mroe likely to be a "translation" error of the unit, if it isn't "propaganda".
@@steemlenn8797 Potentially so, and I mean in those translations meters is a translation of the ancient unit of measurement being the Chinese "pace" so even that number isn't super exact. But even still, the 1.5km number could be halved and still be a ludicrously long distance to be achieved by a stringed projectile thrower.
But if that projectile also utilized gunpowder like in this video those extra long distances might be achievable, particularly with siege artillery. And we do know that both the 13th Century Chinese used (fireworks) as well as the Mongols being one of the early adopters of gunpowder in a martial capacity
Modern reconstructions have a draw weight of 350 lbs, less than a handheld crossbow. Whereas the triple prod arcuballista require giant winches operated by multiple men, way more than 350 lbs. So of course modern reproductions can’t compare.
Also it’s not 1.5 km more like 1 km as from the Tongdian. Albeit the Wujingzogyao says it’s only several hundred meters. The Arabic account of Mongols using Khitan (northern Chinese) ballistas reiterates that they fire at 1 km.
@ 5:10 Absolutely the best ive seen on UA-cam this year?
This was a fascinating video. I could see how much you enjoyed making it.
There is another video on UA-cam of a German chap experimenting with a Hwacha. The arrows/darts were notably longer and all landed short of the balloon representations of Japanese troops.
But to quote Sean Bean in Sharpe's Enemy 'they would play merry hell on the moral of poorly led troops', and would cause horses to falter.
That opening shot is amazing!
My son is playing a play station game loosely set around the Mongolian invasion of Japan, and there were Hwacha in the game. He thought they were a fantasy invention, but I told him they were real, if a little anachronistic for the period of the game, and invented by the Koreans.
He's most likely play ghost of tsushima, just started playing it myself. It's a great game.
The arrow is really slow because the wire isn't tight enough. You can see when he fires how much the arrow and the wire are wobling a lot. And all the way to the target, the arrow is really slow down because of this.
If he did fire the arrow without the wire, the arrow would travel much faster. When the rocket is firing, the arrow will have an inzane speed when hitting the target.
Yes, I know the wire is because of safety. But it needs to be tighter.
The best solution in his setup is to not use the crossbow and rely on the rocket alone. The acceleration of the rocket is enough to hit the target at high speed.
The closest 'modern' system to this would be something like a PIAT from WW2 which used a spring to launch a rocket projectile, the rocket itself takes a moment to get up to speed, which is why it needs a 'kick' at the start@@metern
Hey Todd , I'm so jealous. Great vid, who cares if it's practical or not, damn good fun!
Here's a suggestion (feel free to add rocket motors if you want) but how about a crossbow bolt with 'mini-wings' just like modern gliding bombs? Surely that's worth a try?
Lots of room to experiment as in, wings behind the head or further back , varying degrees forward of the balance point. You might have to adapt a crossbow to fire them (if only you knew an excellent weaponsmith?) but I think it is easily enough done and might give significant range increase.
Do it, do it oh please do it, you know you want to.
Respects.
Thank god there are people like you out there to scratch those historical itches I thought only I needed.
The hwacha used in Lock and Load was originally from Mythbusters, 2008, episode 16, "Alcohol Myths". The clue is that in an earlier episode of Mythbusters they attached dozens of metal scoops to a wagon wheel to make a gunpowder fueled engine. That's why one wheel of the hwacha looks like a sawblade. Anyway...look for videos of Mythbusters hwacha to see the build and testing.
Tod being the epic man he is, love your content mate
One thing to consider about your line is it causes the rocket to channel all of its energy into one direction and strike the breastplate at the perfect angle of incidence. How these interact with the drag of the cable is hard to say though. Any hunter will tell you that angle of incidence and angle of impact are so important for penetration, if the arrow is as inherently unstable as you say your cable scenario might be highly unlikely, though possible. I love how excited you got. Cant help but smile at that.
Hahaha, I love how much you fanboy over Joe Gibbs. Any time you mention him it is abundantly clear that you are in complete awe of his ability. Love it, properly conveys the respect needed for longbowmen of the past and present.
Joe Gibbs ability to fire a longbow is Awesome in the original meaning of the word
Easily one of my favorite of your videos. Your enthusiasm and the cool factor 👍👍👍🙇🏻
There's definitely energy loss if the rocket arrow is spiraling around and the thought that it might hit at odd angles as well means it likely wouldn't be entirely useful in a battlefield scenario. Though it would come with a morale impact too. Striking fear into your foe with something technologically more advanced than what they have themselves can impact the battle, especially against poorly disciplined troops.
Welcome back Tod, I thought you might up to something but I never expected this...very entertaining.
These incredible results paint a lethal picture for the rocket arrows. To think that in the Far East where these were used extensively, most soldiers weren't wearing European steel breastplates conform a master's standard, but lighter organic armours such as leather.
Tod, this might be stupid, but what about about sizing it up to your fletched spear size? Maybe using three moters at angles to create spin
Would that be more accurate in terms of massed infantry use
It would certainly be terrifying to see/hear a bunch of them coing at you, and the cost seems little more than the individual arrows
Better yet, a fire bolt of that size shooting into a city/castle from a range you are untouchable by anything the enemy has to set fires inside
Getting multiple motors to light at the same time is a huge pain without electronic ignition, and if one or m0re motors ignite late or not at all, the you have no idea where the arrow will go.
@@cameronwebster6866 You make a good point but I counter it with
With one motor you never know where the arrow will go haha
@@jamesj4827 I think the probabilities will work out in favor of one motor.
@@cameronwebster6866 Yeah I'm mostly joking, as you say, seems improbable to get them all to light off with period gear
Did the same with bangers taped to arrows - still got the scars! Well done Tod.
Seems like a decent way to slow down a hoard, when you don't care which arrow hits which person.
I was thinking that. A mass of bodies does not need accuracy. And time the rockets to go off after they arc they should work.
Under rated. The idea of a arrow in you with its rocket thruster still going belongs in a horror movie.
Absolutely great! The energy of one of those arrows is roughly equivalent to a modern handgun bullet, just nuts.
Hard not to be giddy over such a spectacle, Tod's truly a man's man for showing this to us!
I made some replica Congeve rockets a couple of years ago and got the same results you did. I made two, one of them went fairly straight and flew for a bit, the other made a turn after launch and went elsewhere.
If you upped the scale of it would you have something better than a cannon. You wouldn't need to wait for it to cool down and would vastly decrease the chance of it blowing up killing you.
Would it be cheaper?
Would it have more range?
Would it do more damage?
A rocket crossbow bolts was one military weapon I wanted to include in my "Magical Realism Fantasy" writing project based off the late middle age. It's amazing to see that fantasy actually be created IRL by one of my favorite UA-camr! Many of the details I dreamed up matched what Tod recreated: the ignition + launch sequence, armor penetrating power, and inaccuracy factor. In my fantasy, the inaccuracy is solved somehow (still figuring this out), and the weapon is deployed as signature weapon of a centralized bureaucratic nation.
We love that you love your job we get to see great content
I think there's one more thing to consider: when might have this been viable? It needs to be after gunpowder is widely available, but before handgonnes or arquebuses have been invented. Because guns have all of the advantages of rocket arrows and far, far fewer disadvantages. In Europe, I think that window was very narrow indeed.
An important detail about Chinese rockets is that there was a lead or iron counterweight close to the tail end to counter balance the weight of the rocket motor, which would help very much with accuracy. Also more substantial fletching (paper, parchment/leather, bark, wood etc) would help counteract the instability of the rocker motor.
I think that the main problem with "rocket arrows" is the timing of the shot which must tally with the timing of the fuse.
But the technology of friction matches can help with this problem. I believe that the friction of the rocket arrow shaft on the side of a bow-stave fitted with a match friction pad is enough to fire up a very short fuse right at the moment of launch. There would be some misfires but when firing properly the time gap between the bow-shot and the lighting of the rocket motor would be set and predictable.
Thus an arrow already in flight would be further accelerated by the rocket motor with reasonable accuracy perhaps akin to that of a smoothbore musket.
Archers with hunting-grade bows (50-60 lbs draw weight) could thus launch these rocket arrows in massive volleys, in a spray and pray fashion, just like the historical Chinese rockets.
I was thinking this also, possibly using a sort of pull cord ignitor attached to the crossbow so when the bolt travels forward it would ignite a 1/s second or so fuse. I think it is very possible that the bolt stabilizing slightly in flight before the booster ignites might also improve accuracy.
Accuracy would be less important if it has the chemical/incendiary load from earlier.
And maybe a little bigger so you could lob fiery stuff a few hundred meters and over the defensive lines or walls.
Yeah, and then you could even make the load even bigger if you make a better launcher for it, and you could even get rid of the rockets to eliminate the innacuracy. Oh wait, that's a catapult.
And who really cares if you hit this guy, or one ten metres left or right.
Besides that, you were supposed to use a car that let you shoot a lot of them at the same time
These things would work well is fired in massed volleys, which is what the Chinese did (mostly); bc the individual accuracy is never going to be great; it'd be a really expensive weapon to operate though.
@captainnyet9855 True. But if you can scare the living crap out of them well before the battle that's worth a lot.
Excellent as usual! 👍
16:40 Even if it's inaccurate it'd still hit people in a battlefield situation where there are large masses of people running about. So I don't think it's that much of an issue considering a battlefield use.
You know it’s going to a good video when Tod gets excited!
Beer was also responsible for a lot of dumb stuff I did 40 years ago
This is just so frigging cool, love it!
Absolutely fantastic video, would be interesting to wire up electric ignition on the rocket motor linked to the triger to time the launch perfectly and could be shot more safely from a bench if a motor was wired up to pull the trigger. Possibly losing the wire tether if somewhere safer to launch could be found.
Next that "Patriot"-Arrow from "Men in Tights" please :)
I especially enjoyed the cost-benefit analysis at the end. In that vein, it would be interesting (if somewhat more difficult, especially given your restrictions) to compare the damage vs. using a conventional crossbow to launch a grenade containing the same amount of blackpowder.
A black powder explosive that small won't really do anything against an armored opponent.
I agree with altar, it would require quite a bit to seriously endanger an armoured fighter, but eye will always be vulnerable
@@tods_workshop Good points. Even in full plate, a small nick in the arming doublet vs. the frag and deafening blast of even a small grenade would be a tossup. In anything less, I think the grenade would be much worse. Not necessarily immediately fatal, but a few concentrated at one point could suffice to break a line - which is when all the killing happened.
That would depend greatly on the nature of the grenade. Grenades are rarely designed around the explosion itself-the range and effect are too limited by the fuel supply available in such a small object. Grenades mostly use the explosion to propel either secondary incendiary material or shrapnel. How effective either of those would be against plate would be very detail-dependent.
@@NevisYsbryd I agree with you, and I'm sorry if I was unclear. The shrapnel would be completely ineffective against plate, but some (as noted by Tod) might be blown into your eyes or other gaps in the armor, plus the shock of the blast and flash (especially in this era when the technology was very new and rare). Also, something I hadn't considered earlier is the fact that the knight's horse would likely be terrified by the blast, and/or hit in his unarmored back by that shrapnel.
Another thing to point out -- the (in)accuracy of the Congreve and similar stick rockets is largely because the stick, which acts like the vanes on an arrow, doesn't do much to stabilize until the rocket has built up some velocity, by which time the random pointing has already developed. With your setup, firing the arrow from a bow or crossbow just before the motor ignites, the arrow would already by stable when the trust starts and remain so throughout the thrust period. You'd still lose some accuracy vs. a longbow, but it wouldn't be anything like as random as a Congreve type; in fact, a bowman or crossbowman firing one of these should be able to pretty reliably hit even a fairly small unit of men (like a pike square) out to at least half of that 750 meter range. In practice, you'd use a squad of 10 or 20 of these bowmen in volley fire like a shotgun -- and they'd still be capable of firing regular arrows when the two or three rocket arrows they'd carry were expended.
Interestingly, this concept has come full circle; many artillery rounds are now using rocket assist (going back to the 16 inch battleship rifles on the American Iowa class in the 1970 for Vietnam shore bombardment) to extend their range with little or no loss of accuracy, albeit an inevitable small reduction in explosive payload.
The warping and bending of the arrow once rocket motor kicks in is absolutely ASTRONOMICAL :D
It was crazy how much they flexed, but to honest I got through a few on this one
Happy belated Birthday Tod!
Always look forward to a new video from Tod! If ever I won the lottery I'd be doing stuff like this but without a UA-cam channel. I'm WAY too accident prone lol.
One thing about Hwachas.. They also had explosive projectiles... And the saturation effect of 4 of let's say 40 arrows each with explosives?!
That's bloody terrifying!
Imagine getting stuck with a first volley, regular non-exploding ones then all of a sudden next volley, people start exploding around you!
NO THANKS!!
Great video as always Tod, thanks! 🙏
I think it's worth mentioning that in addition to accuracy, the line also acts like the barrel of the gun, channeling the force in a single direction. Given the way rockets turn in flight, a lot of that added momentum Todd measured here will be lost in mid-air rotation.
Ah yes, the Trebuchet. The perfect pole to tie a line to
Many times in life the solution requires a Trebuchet
We have arrows and rockets. Hold my beer and watch this.
That little "ohh, ohohoh" at the beginning got me.😆
I once found about 10 whistling rockets which someone had abandoned near an archery field. I couldn't resist trying to test rocket arrows. Attached one hear the tip of an arrow, lit and fired. It looped back and nearly hit me. The next one I mounted at a slight ange so the motor thrust would cause the arrow to spin. This flew much better. The next I made an arrow with much more angle on the fletching so as to give more spin. This worked very well.
Modern fireworks displays use mortars to launch shells instead of rocket powered fireworks. Wind will cause shells to move in a predictable way downwind. The drag on the stabilization stick/arrow will make the rocket move upwind in an entirely unpredictable manner.
Rocket archery would be an advantage in engaging an upwind enemy and design of the rocket motor casing could enable significant burning after reaching the target. A whistling rocket is quite scary when flying towards you.
What if you made it spin? would it help to stabilize it and improve accuracy?
You gotta do the stinkbomb!
But how do we quantify the stink into numbers?
if it makes me pass out or retch its a goody
@@tods_workshop I'm imagining you and Matt doing this video and gagging, retching and laughing! Could be epic!
I had hoped you'd try rocket powered arrows ever since a few years ago I learned that these were actually a thing.
I know the accuracy vs a single target is propably appauling, but the pure psychological effect of having a few of these against an army would be devastating. Similar to very early firearms - they weren't precise, a lot of the time they didn't work at all and quite often, they'd blow up on themselves. But they were really loud and they made a fireball and smoke and everything - for people who hadn't been confronted with them before, it'll have felt like the legions of hell were attacking.
Anyway, great video!
Even though the arrows wouldn't have been accurate, the mental distress that would have been caused by them flying every which way, and the noise and smoke, probably would have been huge.
Agreed - in retrospect I probably underplayed the intimidation
@@tods_workshop You underplayed A LOT about the Hwacha and rocket arrows/artillery in general, there are so many obvious guesses and assumptions that its the first time I am actually deeply disappointed with a video of yours in all my years of watching, and it is one I definitely won't be revisiting unlike so many others, though, I will now be viewing even those with a new level of scrutiny. And its another example of an annoying trend I notice often among westerners who talk about Asian military history and technology. It comes to a point where its difficult to tell the difference between confident ignorance/laziness or plain old racism (and there is already plenty of both in the comments of this video from my looking, even if it is subtle). Though, I highly doubt you are the kind of person to fall into the latter category so I'll easily chalk it up to an unfortunate case of ignorance.
The Hwacha (and it variants) were used over several centuries and was noted as being a key factor in several important military victories for the Koreans. It was used on land and at sea, defensive or offensive. Early variants were more akin to organ guns while other variants moved past arrows and fired metal explosive rockets, with some variants of those rockets being airburst and filled with shrapnel and others being cluster munitions (Now these would have likely been the very expensive ones!), some were even flamethrowers. Hell, the Chinese invented and fielded the oldest known multistage rocket with cluster munition warheads in the early 1300s for naval use, and I doubt it was limited to purely naval use but sources are so rare that we will likely never know.
I'm perplexed by the assertion the weapon "didn't spread" because its nowhere near the only weapon of its type, and that is me being generous to you and limiting the area of reference to only East Asia. The Koreans weren't even the first to test and field a weapon like this, theirs is just the most iconic and most easily read about in Western sources. The Huolongjing references and illustrates a weapon incredibly similar to the Hwacha before the Hwacha was even developed. So, yes, it very much spread around seeing as it spread to Korea and they innovated on a useful concept learned from China.
Expensive? Black powder was proliferated across East Asia by this point and used extensively, and not even limited to East Asia because in South East Asia there were nations where even the smallest of towns and villages had dedicated saltpeter production for black powder, and we know this because it was a practice the Dutch outlawed and punished brutally in the Dutch East Indies. Majapahit being a notable one for having better artillery and more heavily armed ships than Europeans they fought, as told by said Europeans. I don't think you comprehend the scale of their black powder manufacturing.
Slow to reload? Hardly. They would replace the entire box with a preloaded one while the empty one was reloaded. Considering there were often multiple, sometimes dozens (some battle formations claim over a hundred), of them working together and the sheer amount of fire they could put down range (literally in some cases), their reload time hardly seems "slow" in comparison.
Inaccurate? Against individuals, yes. Against dense masses of infantry, its main target, in pre-sighted areas of fire ranging up to several hundred meters? No. Both the Japanese and Korean accounts of the Battle of Haengju note the several dozen Hwacha used by the Koreans as being a key deciding factor in the battle, a battle in which the Koreans defeated a force ten times their own. And its hardly the only one. According to surviving Korean records, they could fully pierce the shield and metal armor of a dummy at roughly 100 meters. The comparison to the congreve rocket is such an irrelevant and oblivious one, your own example videos show their behavior in flight being very different. Weird, almost like their base construction and flight characteristics are different, huh?
The Hwacha was preferred over the cannon artillery the Koreans had access to for many reasons in formations, a key one being mobility. I'm not sure if you have ever been to Korea or even looked at pictures of it. It is incredibly mountainous. Cannons, even wheeled, were too cumbersome to move around easily. Especially if you were battling on a slope. Reportedly, only a few men were required to move the Hwacha over rough terrain even in terrain where maneuvering a cannon would be impossible.
There is a famous, or infamous if you ask me, video of a Hwacha being fired on UA-cam (not gonna link it, you'll know it when you see it) and I've had to deal with people eagerly citing it as proof of how ineffective the Hwacha is a weapon. The point those people seem to miss, sometimes on purpose, is that the Hwacha in the video was used by a gaggle of idiots that didn't even bother to sight it properly, clearly had the wrong amount of charge in the rockets, and fired it at a sparse scattering of targets (that the arrows landed short of due to the previously mentioned issues). I don't think they could have shown the weapon in a worst light even if they set out to make it fail from the start.
I'm not claiming it was a absolutely perfect wonder weapon, but to imply at all that it was an ineffective weapon is an objectively false and laughable notion. They wouldn't have developed and used a weapon for centuries or developed and used battle formations specifically around it if the weapon was as ineffective as your tone and wording implies. Your confident ignorance and possibly even arrogance in your assertions around this weapon is honestly kind of shocking and extremely off-putting to me for your content going forward. I expected someone of your caliber to be more educated and dialed in, and normally you are. I genuinely think you need to analyze whatever the hell happened with this video for you to come across like that and correct it for the future because it is frankly unacceptable from someone that is presented as some form of authority on a subject. I shudder to think how many misinformed viewers this video has spawned that will now obnoxiously spread misinformation wherever they feel because they have the false belief that they were educated on a topic. Every time a confidently incorrect video like this is put out by a popular UA-camr, spaces for historians and hobbyists are flooded with nonsense and misinformation by eager idiots that mindlessly parrot "facts" they didn't bother to confirm themselves, from people that peddle "facts", thoughts, and assumptions that they didn't bother to confirm. Perhaps you might not care because it doesn't affect you, but it most definitely affects others.
Yea if a volley of those was wildly going at me n my mates i Would Not have held fast
Hi Todd,
I know this comment is coming a bit late but I hope you read this. Did your calculations at the end account for the final mass of the arrow being less than at launch? The motor loses mass as it burns, accelerating faster as it does so-- the momentum and energy of the arrow at impact may be less than you calculated (but clearly still enough to give someone a bad day!), and the maximum range may be much further than you'd expect.
I don't think you should neglect the impact of intimidation. Marching across a field with my comrades who can shoot a bow 200 yards, and getting peppered by FLAMING arrows from 700 yards; even if none hit, I am going to rethink my life choices.
The only thing you'd think is confidence in winning the battle, given that the enemy general chose to use a weapon that always misses its target. Flaming arrows weren't a new thing either, they all knew it was good for sieges but lousy against even simple armor. You're vastly underestimating these soldiers' intelligence and morale.
@@TheAsj97 As a soldier I wouldn't expect any hits from 700 yards. Hit rates aren't great even at much closer ranges. Crossing that distance while continuously under fire and not able to return fire would be daunting. As a conscripted peasant the situation is even more severe. My officer has convinced me that we are the better army, this blows a smoking hole in that belief
Thanks for highlighting this and in honesty I did probably underrate the intimidation factor. The other is that of course if the bodies of men you are shooting at are big enough then accuracy is not too much of an issue.
@@tods_workshop I'm thinking that these arrows would be especially useful against cavalry. Horses tend to react badly to...well, lots of things. Hissing flaming arrows would likely be one of those things.
@@tods_workshop I certainly think there was a niche for those and the mediaeval Katushka is definitely in my arsenal. Will I use them all the time, no but I would have them. Experience would tell you the range and the expected spead of the projectiles so you could saturate a pre-ranged area with half a dozen of these long range 'Saladin's organs.'
- a little modern for you but I' d love a video or two on the various forms of multi barrelled small cannon - just an idea. - - THANK YOU for sharing your wonderful exploits.
Oh! I am glad I found your channel. I have not seen anyone recreate the funky tonfa-sword from the legendary game STRIDER.
As always, great research and very entertaining video, thank you!
You should set up a range test with the rocket arrows. It could be done by mounting the crossbow at an optimal angle and firing both the crossbow and starting the rocket motor electronically. This way you can ensure that the rocket ignites as it leaves the crossbow.
This could also be used to see what the dispersal of arrows are like, and how useful it would be against massed enemies at long range.
I would be interested in seeing the data on a tethered arrow without a rocket, it wouldn't be a direct correlation to an untethered rocket assisted arrow but the difference between tethered and untethered plain arrows might give some indication as to how much drag was affecting the shots vs the increased weight of the arrow.
Fantastic video as always, thank you very much for sharing your content with us.
I would imagine they'd be best against horses and elephants- it's terrifying to people, but even worse for animals who hate that kind of noise and smell.
And is also really powerful, i bet that thing hitting an elephant would hurt A LOT, if not break some bones.
The Hwacha was used in Japan, and brought from China down into Vietnam, and an earlier version (the nest of bees) was brought by the last of the Mongols in the East all the way down into modern Malaysia and Java, though it didn't actually see use in them to my knowledge due to climate making the rocket's gunpowder of much less reliable consistency.
But it is very clear they were used for morale shock, rather than taking out loads of enemies. Particularly useful against the cavalry that were once again taking the field in large numbers, because it scared the absolute crap out of horses. Also, particularly after fire lances and other early guns had been used, and covered much of the field in enough smoke that hwacha could not easily be seen by men massed in the distance.
It is also a period in Chinese history where China is seeing the first resurgence of expansionism since the middle Tang, and was being used alongside the "Muslim" trebuchet (particularly large counterweight trebuchets) to demoralize armies within sieges, destroying not only the walls and their home, but causing constant stress for the civilian population as well with small-scale fires and the like.
Amazing video! Right in time when im planning to replace fireworks with Bow fireworks!
Line friction and direct flight are a hindrance to "validity" but still an awesome result. The second of burn time at the end tells me there is still a bit of speed and power left on the table. A 100-200meter series finding the distance to burnout and max impact would be very interesting. The Korean example would have been an awesome tool against grouped troops or cavalry at a great distance or a potentially shattering incoming charges.
This experiment more or less confirms a comment I placed with Tod before,that is that breastplates aren't stationary,the rocket arrow hit the plate at about the same velocity as an arrow from a longbow would if you add in the velocity from a charging knight on horseback thus proving that longbows were effective against charging armoured knights on horsebabk.
Iv had this idea bouncing around my head for a while. Specialized Crossbow bolts they would be short-range due to accuracy, but it would be terrifying for a knight to see the streaks of smoke crossing this way and that, and you're on a big target so even if they are inaccurate if you got 10-20 guys just poping off shots in volleys they will hit you eventually.
Loved the video, always interesting. Next time stick the rocket arrow(s) in a simulated cannon barrel, a good old steel tube, and see if goes anywhere near what you are shooting at. 😀
hmmmmm. a plan may occur
For the record, I also love your job!
I never knew i had to see this. I now need to see more