I would like Starmer to make it an election pledge to foster greater ties with Europe. Labour may lose a few marginal seats but it’s unlikely to lose them the election. He would get a lot of credit for being honest and he will be in a much more credible position once in power. It’s worth the risk in my view.
@@kaysi6605 You can bet Labour party campaign literature at the next election will be pro Europe in London,other metropolitan areas and university towns and cities, but the EU and europe won't be mentioned in any campaign literature outside these areas!
@@AlexGys9 They probably mean 'Continental Europe' but I agree it's a very _English_ way of reasoning. The UK is and always has been a part of Europe. It's the EU they'd like (or not, depending who you ask) better ties with. Language matters here.
The EU is working on fiscal union now (ie. Brussels sets tax rates etc., as per EU Five Presidents' Report 2015), in advance of economic union (Lisbon Treaty Article 3.4 / EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). The EU Rome Declaration 2017 wants economic union complete by 2027. The ECB's 'Fiscal Implications of the EU Recovery Package' 2020 advocated getting economic union back on track post-pandemic, and in 2022 all member states reaffirmed their commitment to it, as part of Article 3. It means, of course, one big economy, and obviously requires one central, federal government to run it. Political union is the openly stated aim of these developments (EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). That means one big country, for which there is absolutely no democratic mandate. The European Council claims the right to deploy member states' armed forces as its own (Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3). The European Union Global Strategy, issued exactly one week after the referendum, claims the right of the EU's military "to act autonomously (of NATO) if and when necessary". On 23rd April 2019 the European Council issued its Military Command and Control Structures document, outlining the EU's military command structure over member states' land, sea and air forces, in full accordance with Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3. Reckless EU expansionism includes, as accession countries, Albania (hotbed of gangsterism, corruption and medieval blood feuds), Serbia and Montenegro (both traditional allies of Russia0, Moldova (part of it coveted by Russia), Ukraine (currently at war with Russia) and eventually Turkey (instantly, upon joining, the poorest, largest and most populous member state). All will have their begging bowls out for the money of western European taxpayers, so you can see quite clearly why they want to join. As you should know, having read Lisbon Treaty Article 42, member states are committed to the military aid of a member under attack, so if the Ukraine War isn't resolved by the time it joins, the EU will be at war with Russia. You are excused not knowing about the secret deal within the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership, in effect since 2010, in which the EU offered the free movement of people into Europe from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey. The EU didn't want anybody to know that. But you have no excuses for not knowing about the rest of them.
The EU has moved on even the far right party’s of Italy france want to stay in the eu , as for London mayor khan will win he s massively odds on favourite to do that at 1/8 ,
It's 2024: a majority of Britons have probably realised by now that Brexit has had mostly negative effects. Some are vocal about this, others stay silent. Britons who still think that Brexit has been (or will become) a success are obviously delusional. The 'benefit-of-the-doubt' time-frame has clearly past. People who still 'believe' in Brexit are cultists and others should (imo) stop discussing Brexit with them on merit because it's useless: if reality hasn't sunk in by now, it never will. There's more to be gained in making clear to those Britons who want to become EU members again to approach that process realistically: because it will probably be a long-term endeavour and not just a question of asking the EU nicely .
'Benefit of the doubt time-frame? We've only been out of the EU for four years.Let's wait forty years of being out of the EU (same sort of time frame of our membership) before we make solid conclusions about the benefits of Brexit shall we.Remember the UK was part of this ridiculous union for over forty years and the majority of those who voted wanted to leave anyway in a democratic referendum.......so it couldn't have been that great a club to be a member of in the first place!! Let the EU27 carry on with their federalist model of further integration of member states and let the UK go on their own independent way until we have another referendum on the issue.Hopefully that's many years away ........or preferably never.
@@adrianlloyd6403 Nonsense. The Brexiter claim always was that there would be *immediate* benefits: cheaper clothes, shoes and food, etcetera. Your 'let's wait 40 years' hollow rhetoric stems from the obvious fact that there are and will not be any tangible Brexit benefits, ever. Brexit has damaged the UK and will continue to do so. But you're welcome to your delusions! I understand why they're important to you.
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Acceleration is hard to achieve when meeting the Copenhagen Criteria is also a necessity for the UK's application. And there's also the issue of *trust* as in: how can the UK convince all EU member states that it won't exit again after a change in government? The EU is, after all, *not a revolving door* .
@@maartenaalsmeer And the 'remain' side argument was that there would be mass unemployment and a recession very soon following Brexit! Both sides made extravagant claims about the repercussions of which way the vote went and after seven and a half years of arguing with remainers, i'm not re-running the referendum campaign again.I'm bored of the subject of reminding remainers it was a democratic referendum, chosen at a time the remainer PM Cameron wanted to hold the referendum, and the remain side LOST with 48% of the vote.'The obvious fact that there are and will not be any tangible Brexit benefits,ever' is such a ludicrous statement when the UK now has its national sovereignty and independence back,saves £12.6bn in payments to the EU and is free to make trade deals around the World with whoever it wants to, for starters.If those aren't tangible benefits then please list the benefits the UK derived from being in the EU for forty years.If other EU countries are happy in the union then good luck to them,the UK voted leave and i hope it stays that way.The only delusional individuals around are individuals like you who think there's a long term future for the EU.The UK has existed in one form or another for nearly 1200 years whereas the common market/EEC/EU has been around under seventy years.If you view the EU27 with rose-tinted specs and is wonderful in everything that it does then let's see what happens on 6-9 June 2024 when the European parliament election results come out.I can see a good many anti-EU MEPs being voted in,not that i care one way or the other.
We live in interesting times. A split of the Tory party is to be welcomed with the way it has lost its marbles, which in turn will help the Labour party and government have that debate about our European identity. We need to have that debate rather than this awful Groundhog Day we're in for the next few months.
"It's all the Tories" Corby was anti EU all his life. He was entitled enough to presume he could demand a Customs Union from the EU. The deputy leader of the LP said she would vote for Brexit if there was a second referendum. The international party strife in the UK is not our problem.
Why not? The EU is working on fiscal union now (ie. Brussels sets tax rates etc., as per EU Five Presidents' Report 2015), in advance of economic union (Lisbon Treaty Article 3.4 / EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). The EU Rome Declaration 2017 wants economic union complete by 2027. The ECB's 'Fiscal Implications of the EU Recovery Package' 2020 advocated getting economic union back on track post-pandemic, and in 2022 all member states reaffirmed their commitment to it, as part of Article 3. It means, of course, one big economy, and obviously requires one central, federal government to run it. Political union is the openly stated aim of these developments (EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). That means one big country, for which there is absolutely no democratic mandate. The European Council claims the right to deploy member states' armed forces as its own (Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3). The European Union Global Strategy, issued exactly one week after the referendum, claims the right of the EU's military "to act autonomously (of NATO) if and when necessary". On 23rd April 2019 the European Council issued its Military Command and Control Structures document, outlining the EU's military command structure over member states' land, sea and air forces, in full accordance with Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3. Reckless EU expansionism includes, as accession countries, Albania (hotbed of gangsterism, corruption and medieval blood feuds), Serbia and Montenegro (both traditional allies of Russia0, Moldova (part of it coveted by Russia), Ukraine (currently at war with Russia) and eventually Turkey (instantly, upon joining, the poorest, largest and most populous member state). All will have their begging bowls out for the money of western European taxpayers, so you can see quite clearly why they want to join. As you should know, having read Lisbon Treaty Article 42, member states are committed to the military aid of a member under attack, so if the Ukraine War isn't resolved by the time it joins, the EU will be at war with Russia. You are excused not knowing about the secret deal within the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership, in effect since 2010, in which the EU offered the free movement of people into Europe from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey. The EU didn't want anybody to know that. But you have no excuses for not knowing about the rest of them.
@@SJG-nr8ujThank you for the information provided. I do know the EU and what it stands for. However, I do wonder what your excuse is for not knowing that Europe a continent is whereas the European Union a supranational union is of some, but not all, European countries.
@@AlexGys9 The UK is not in the EU, and the EU is Europe, in terms of the project of Continental-scale unification, which is what the "European issue" amounts to..
Identity isn't something for politicians to decide. It's a cultural issue. I say that as someone who is on the extreme end of the pro-Europe spectrum. I want Schengen borders, full adoption of the Euro, and a nationwide conversion to the metric system.
In the UK cultural identity and political identity are very much intertwined, as shown for instance by the continuing obsession with WW2. Politicians can contribute to reinforcing or modifying the UK’s political identity.
You'll eventually get your wish. Brexit is an old people's obsession. Young people don't want it. The tide is turning against Brexit and in only a few years it'll be 80:20 in favour of rejoining the EU. The Labour party can't hold back that tide.
@@rebecca_noble He said 'why' and not 'where', Becca. So: _Because you live in a fantasy world_ would have been more apt. But hey, you tried. Good job!
Actually Labour is united on Brexit, more than 80% of Labour Party members didn't want Brexit and would like it reversed, probably nearly 100% of Labour Party MPs do not want Brexit. It's only the leadership that is pro-Brexit and that's only because they think that Brexit voters are too dim to change their minds as the evidence against Brexit stacks up. Once the Labour Party wins the election then the need to stay quiet on Brexit so as not to upset Brexiters will be removed, so there will be an almighty fight between the membership and the leadership over Brexit.
That may be true but it doesn't solve the big problem... The EU don't want the UK back. In 2016 British exceptionalism persuaded 17.4 people that "they need us more than we need them".. That same exceptionalism is now convincing people that we can return if we want, this is delusional thinking.
There may well be some British people suffering from that delusion but everyone associated the Federal Trust is aware of the difficulties that lie ahead. Every journey however starts with a first step.
@@dub604 It is grossly simplistic to say the EU do not want the UK back. A UK fully committed to "Ever Closer Union" the euro, Schegen, more integrated defence etc would be welcomed very enthusiastically. The challenge for UK rejoiners is that the hurdle of getting British opinion to accept such a view of the EU, to see ourselves like Germany or France, currently appears very high. But as Brexit bites, issues surrounding sterling and the economy and the questions of cultural identity raised by immigration and above all, if Trump becomes the next US President, this hurdle may fall away, perhaps very dramatically and very quickly.
On the subject of the ‘special relationship’ - you might have noticed repeated criticisms by the Pentagon of inadequate UK defence budgets and the shrinking capabilities of the Armed Forces. The French are apparently seen (ironies of ironies) as more ‘relevant’.
The US attitude to the French has much to do with the fact that France's independent nuclear force is genuinely so, unlike that of the UK which is dependent upon US technical support.
Fine if you're in a safe seat, but if you're in a marginal, vote to get the Tories out. Labour are pro-Europeean, but they're realist in the sense that integration can only be a process, that starts quietly with alignment. If we didn't have a toxic press and an ongoing culture war over Europe, I'm sure they would be much more openly pro-EU. After all, they brutally ejected the far left Eurosceptic faction from their ranks. But they live in reality, where speaking up too early risks giving the Tories a route back into power, and that cannot be allowed to happen.
We might hear about Brexit again very soon. Labeling of goods, unless they managed to delay it again. Wasn't it supposed to happen in the third quarter of January ?.
It's hard to see Brexit featuring at all in a London mayoral election. The electorate won't make the connection between their problems, and the impediments to British trade at the heart of Brexit.
The EU is working on fiscal union now (ie. Brussels sets tax rates etc., as per EU Five Presidents' Report 2015), in advance of economic union (Lisbon Treaty Article 3.4 / EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). The EU Rome Declaration 2017 wants economic union complete by 2027. The ECB's 'Fiscal Implications of the EU Recovery Package' 2020 advocated getting economic union back on track post-pandemic, and in 2022 all member states reaffirmed their commitment to it, as part of Article 3. It means, of course, one big economy, and obviously requires one central, federal government to run it. Political union is the openly stated aim of these developments (EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). That means one big country, for which there is absolutely no democratic mandate. The European Council claims the right to deploy member states' armed forces as its own (Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3). The European Union Global Strategy, issued exactly one week after the referendum, claims the right of the EU's military "to act autonomously (of NATO) if and when necessary". On 23rd April 2019 the European Council issued its Military Command and Control Structures document, outlining the EU's military command structure over member states' land, sea and air forces, in full accordance with Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3. Reckless EU expansionism includes, as accession countries, Albania (hotbed of gangsterism, corruption and medieval blood feuds), Serbia and Montenegro (both traditional allies of Russia0, Moldova (part of it coveted by Russia), Ukraine (currently at war with Russia) and eventually Turkey (instantly, upon joining, the poorest, largest and most populous member state). All will have their begging bowls out for the money of western European taxpayers, so you can see quite clearly why they want to join. As you should know, having read Lisbon Treaty Article 42, member states are committed to the military aid of a member under attack, so if the Ukraine War isn't resolved by the time it joins, the EU will be at war with Russia. You are excused not knowing about the secret deal within the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership, in effect since 2010, in which the EU offered the free movement of people into Europe from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey. The EU didn't want anybody to know that. But you have no excuses for not knowing about the rest of them.
@@SJG-nr8uj Other than your blatant lie about a secret agreement, which doesn't exist at all, none of your arguments are a reason for concern to any EU citizen.
@@SJG-nr8uj Let's not forget, the Qatargate people wanted to give visa free entry to Qatar people. They paid millions of euros to the vice president of the EU parliament to represent them in the EU "parliament". Which has now been swept under the carpet. We never hear about it.
@@paulomarinho1963 This piece is taken from the website of Danish journalist Anders Bruun Laursen The Euro-Mediterranean Project (EMP) was agreed upon between the EU and Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey, and comprises: A. Comprehensive political partnerships, among other things about 1. Establishing a free trade area and economic integration, to begin in 2010, 2. Considerably more money for the partners, 3. Cultural partnerships. B. Respect for Islam is guaranteed by the EU. Multiculturalism is to be respected in order to promote tolerance between different ethnic groups in society. The importance of a resolute common campaign against racism, xenophobia and intolerance is emphasised. Close mutual European-Muslim influence on radio, television, newspapers and magazines is to bring about cultural understanding. The EU will actively promote such mutual influences. The word “multicultural” seems to have taken on a different meaning here, since there is no reference to Chinese, Indian, North American, Caribbean, South American culture etc., only Islamic. It would thus appear that the advance of Muslim culture into Europe has been backed by, and even orchestrated by, the European Union. So much for the independence of the media! In return for concrete political and economic changes the EU offers integration in the expanded internal market of the EU and the possibility to obtain free movement of goods, services, money and people. (This was confirmed in an e-mail sent to Mr Laursen by the then Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen dated 29/8/2006. However, Rasmussen twice refused to inform Mr Laursen why he, other governments and even the media had remained absolutely silent about the Euro-Mediterranean Project).
It would be interesting to see more discussion-specific policies around labour and Europe. It seems to me that they will try anything not to be associated with Brexit, so the media and Conservatives can't pull the focus on that, but they have numerous policies which read like an EU commission check; ist on what to do to become a member, so it would be more interesting to understand what their policies effectively would mean.
Thank you for an informative discussion. There is definitely a rising isolationist trend here in the states and I would say bipartisan. Some political leaders see the downsides of retreating but I'm afraid the public does not. Whatever the outcome, it seems we are headed for a more multi-polar world, economically, militarily, and politically.
Indeed. I like the term "Neo-Westphalian" which makes the parallel with the end of the Thirty Years War, when notions of a single Christendom conforming to one version of Christianity (Catholicism) and with one notion of ideal governance (Absolute Monarchy topped by Emperor and Pope atop a cosmopolitan aristocracy) was supplanted by a more fragmented picture in which emerging nation states (in todays World read cultural regions) developed their own particular and competing identities and governments, most notably Holland and then England. But the West's survival in such a world of great regions, whilst it means shedding its universalism, nevertheless depends upon its own unity, and in particular closer and more equal relations between a more united EU and a still united US (and also greater links between both and Latin America). That is the new Christendom which can meet East and South Asia and Africa on equal terms in the longer run.
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Thank you for your reply. I had to look up the Thirty Years War and the Treaty of Westphalia to understand your remarks. I learnt something. I'm not sanguine given it took a war to create unified, coherent nation states in Europe. While a multi-polar world is not necessarily a bad thing, I hope it doesn't take a war to make the transition.
2 old males totally disconnected to reality of the large majority of working class people outside of London. Masonic Lodge cronies & the dislocation of expectation of these 2 with regards BREXIT, is sadly laughably shocking.
@@Redf322 when you were out of the EU you were out of the cu. Any normal person could understand that. There is no option to leave the EU and stay in the cu. The ignorance of the Brits is astonishing
In its current form, and the state of politics right now in the UK, I feel Brexit has a distinct sell by date. I hear a lot of people saying we voted deal with it, as though democracy is a one and done thing. People confuse winning the battle with winnkng the war, yes Brexit was achived but now its about convincing the next generation of voters its worth keeping. Look at the demographic shift taking place in voters, there was a report published in Times a few months back about how the millenial vote, gen X and Gen Z are liberal left wing on average, and with millenials, they are bucking the trend in that they are not becoming more conservative as they age. So for the Tories this represents an existential crisis, because based off this data they wpuld not be able to win an election for a good few decades. Now couple this with All the poling data on millenial, gen x and gen z attitudes towards the EU, do you honestly think that once these generations become the domenant voting polulations, that they will sit there and say I want the UK in the EU, but 15 years ago my mum and dad voted to leave...so i guess ill have to respect their vote, or will they just say im going to push flr the UK to rejoin and as for my mum and dads vote....well i dont care. Also look at the Pro remain youth engagment comalred to brexiteers, i looked for a youtj engagment policy from reform.UK and cpuld not find anything. Brexiteers laugh at remainers because they failed to listen too and engage with the country outside the cities.....well Brexiteers are doing the same with the youth vote. Listen to them try and engage with them and offer something tangible from brexit too them.....or guess what.....they will push for a referendum of their own and they wont vote for Brexit
Brexit never had a chance because of dereliction of duty by the civil service and spineless politicians who refused to fight our corner.After 8 years we'd have been flying with the right people in place .....so cobblers to all REMOANERS THEY LOST.
@@Caesar-3el very well said. I get tired of telling people that David Cameron told the civil service not to bother planning for a leave vote because remain would win the day. Then effed off and left us. It beggars belief that he is back in government again but hopefully not for long.
They still prosecute traitors. There is a report on the itv website of such a case in October of last year under the title: 'First UK treason conviction in 43 years - How does it work in law and what are the punishments?'
The doubt about Corbyn is not about whether he voted Remain or not in 2016. It is the obvious lack of support for British membership of the European Union he has shown throughout his career.
@@brendandonnelly1853still doesn’t mean you can blame Brexit on him like they did. The end result was a hard Brexit. In his words to be skeptic is not to be anti.
@@Redf322 That's true but a lukewarm campaign by Corbyn was the last thing the Remain camp wanted during that period. Brexiters had a simple, strong, and easy to digest message. We had nothing of the sort.
The real problem for PV was that it depended upon there not being a GE before a second referendum. Corbyn allowed the LDs to push him into an election though they, in turn, were played by the SNP, who despite their (generally) strong pro EU convictions, knew that Brexit would greatly strengthen the pro-independence cause.@@Redf322
"rejecting Brexit" is a ridiculous concept. "rejecting death" doesn't make people rise from the dead. Brexit has happened. Brexit was good for the EU and the Brits won't be allowed to join again. We're better off without the Brits.
@@jasonkingshott2971 ...nope it was win for the EU and loose for the UK, one that the English xenophobes will always drink to, as no cost incured is ever great enough to dissrupt the Brexit Faith!
We didn't even negotiate the Brexit Treaty which is why we are:- Still committed to sending ever increasing £Billions to the EU The EU are still allowed to fish right up to our shores. We are still in the ECHR We are still obeying every EU rule and EU law. We allowed the annexation of Northern Ireland to maintain THEIR border but they can send all their unwanted migrants here ignoring OUR border. We gave control of our Intelligence services and armed forces to the EU We have signed up to allow the WHO to dictate UK policy for the 'next' pandemic. This was not Brexit; it was a treasonous betrayal by the establishment to allow a future Government to negotiate an EU return.
The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU, or Brexit. You currently enjoy reciprocal fishing rights with EU vessels in your waters, and yours in theirs. You aren't sending increasing billions to the EU. You obey such rules as your customer imposes for the TCA you sought, and signed. It was only available to you on the basis of keeping your international commitments in the GFA that the British/ EU border in Ireland not be militarised.
"negotiate an EU return" No, the UK has lost that right, the ball is in the EU's court now. And they have made it quite clear, there won't be any renegotiations. "We are still obeying every EU rule and EU law" Name one!!
Your comment is positive proof that Brexiters live in a world of make believe not in the real world. In the real world if you want to trade with the EU then you have to follow EU rules. Most of our trade is with the EU because they're next door. Therefore we have to follow EU rules. The CBI and the IOD want us to maintain alignment with EU rules because it helps businesses trade with the EU. In areas where we have deviated from EU rules it's always been in the direction of making things worse. We no longer have to comply with EU rules on water pollution, the result is that water companies can now pollute our rivers and the sea around us with sewage. Is that a Brexit benefit? We no longer have to comply with EU rules on pesticides in food, the result is that we now have more dangerous pesticide residues in the food we eat. Is that a Brexit benefit? The European Convention on Human Rights was a brain child of Winston Churchill. It was born after the second world war to guard against the resurgence of fascism by protecting the rights of people. Since the Tory party is a fascist party they want to exit the ECHR so they can remove the rights of the lower classes and lord it over peasants without restraints. The question you have to ask yourself is why is it that very rich people and politicians who work for very rich people are so keen to get the little people to vote away their rights. The EU Single Market was a brain child of Margaret Thatcher, she regarded it as her biggest achievement. The UK was the key driver in creating the EU Single Market, against the sovereignty of France which didn't like the idea of Anglo-Saxon free markets. Northern Ireland has not been annexed. The wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, that they should stay in the EU and not have a border with the Republic of Ireland are respected. "We gave control of our Intelligence services and armed forces to the EU" This is completely bonkers and totally wrong. Where on Earth did you get that idea? We're key part of NATO, so we're fully integrated in the NATO command system. Are you suggesting we should leave NATO as well as leaving the EU? That would be the most utterly insane thing to do given that it's exactly what Putin wants. "We have signed up to allow the WHO to dictate UK policy for the 'next' pandemic." Do you realise that the World Health Organisation is not part of the European Union. The clue is in the word "World" . The WHO doesn't dictate policy, it advises nations on how to deal with health issues. The pandemic was a world wide health problem so of course the World Health Organisation was helping to co-ordinate a response to it. If you want to justify Brexit you'll have to come up with some real benefits of leaving the real world to live in a world of make believe.
@@JohnSmall314 They being the founder tribes "Anglo-Saxon free markets" The Germans and the Danes will be very glad to hear that one. Um, looks like you've got AllenTaylor-lu9bu by the balls👍
@@Purple_flower09 I hope to be long gone before you ever get a chance to re apply again, the UK treated people like shit, barganing chips etc a Polish guy was killed for being Polish in essex and a friend of mine was assaulted for speaking Portuguese so stay away !! bye
@@antonioguerreiro1615 nothing is happening except some old guys are having a chat. In a large EU survey the UK was less racist than most EU countries according to ethnic minorities. But you are not interested in a large scale EU study of course. Calm down dear.
Agreed, brexit will live long. Since the UK will not qualify for new membership for a long time, it will have to deal with the fall-out from a deluded move for decades.
Listening to supposed experts dreaming about rejoining the EU is very entertaining. Starmer is not going to waste a moment on the issue, because it will cost him PM, as it did before. The costs of returning would be unacceptable to the UK, Euro, and Schengen, with much higher fees and FOM back worthless custom Union, its for the birds. It might be interesting to talk about a dream that's never going to happen, just try not to forget it's never going to happen. We are out of the EU forever.
It seems no one in the UK is capable of dealing with reality. Half the population has deluded brexiter dreams, the other half has deluded "rejoiner" dreams. Neither part dares to face the reality of a UK outside the EU.
I disagree. The EU is constantly evolving and so the EU that the UK is dealing with now is different in a few years. The is al ready very closely aligned with most EU rules and standards and is, in fact, slowly but surely backtracking on the dream of Singapore on Thames. Is remain very convinved that the UK will remain very closely aligned with the EU also in the future and will create more and more close connections. A special arrangement is emerging gradually. The will have change dramatically in the future due to new memberships from the East. Call it membership or not. After all, like Farage said: Brexit is a failure. Time to move on and face reality.
@@larslarsen5414 Sorry Lars, the EU is on an inevitable demise to fragmenting breaking up. It is inevitable. I appreciate you want to be hopeful, thts fine, I am a realist and the big picture is the EU is stagnating, it has many countries citizens turning to the Extreme right wing for guidance and electoral power. The is a massive financial crisis coming across the globe which will finish the political EURO, being optimistic and sticking your head in the sand might work for you but its not going to work when the shit hits the fan. The UK will also massively suffered but having our own currency will go a long way to insulate us. Brexit will be recognised as saving the UK.
Do they. What a surprise! As I hear it a lot of Londoners turn down the UK. We had a democratic vote, it's over, stop trying to foment dissension at every turn. I voted remain, a wrong decision in hindsight, the EU have behaved like spiteful unelected malcontents and it's falling apart slowly riven with discontent and in fighting. They desperately need our money to prop up their ridiculous projects. Bring on the Euro? God help us!
That vote was based on several mistruths. How can you have a nationwide vote, turns out the information used to sway voters was literally false (money going into the NHS for example) - and the mistruth that basically business deals were all but guaranteed in the Golden Goose that they claimed Brexit would be. the vote was a near literal 50/50 split. The government can only rule with a majority and the fact it was able to go ahead when it was that close is insane. With a re-vote with the newer facts I don't doubt people would be voting overwhelmingly against Brexit; but unfortunately the tories have burnt a lot of bridges with the EU. Fact is that we are in the EU and we are geographically choosing to stunt ourselves by not having good working relations with our closest neighbours.
The point most people forget is that trade with the EU as a total percentage of total UK was declining, and that any lose of EU tradeoffs the last 7 years and or the next 5 would put the UK/EU at a level that it would have been even.being in the EU. Trade with the EU has been declining for decades. Indeed or her parts of the world are growing faster than the EU as a whole. The only read difference with trade is not how much as the amounts will be much the sane but would the UK have their own trade competency negotiating for their own benefits or would they outsource to the EU competency that focused on some harmonised EU wide view.
Not in overall value, that was increasing, the proportion was declinging not its vaule, it wasworth £300 bllion per annum, 43% of our total export trade goods and services, now i decline! And the reason was that world trade, particularly with China, had grown. But to say the EU trade was simply becomming 'unimportant' and that cure of the graph would simply continue wa both economically illiterate and total speculative!
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Do you ever wonder why you feel poorer than you did 10 or 20 years ago ? Its all because of the failure of the EU over decades. Consider how much the EU has already declined relative to the United States. Fifteen years ago, according to the IMF, the GDP of the Eurozone was just under $14 trillion, while the U.S. economy was marginally bigger.Today, the Eurozone’s GDP is just under $15 trillion, a modest rise by any standards. But the U.S.’s GDP has roared ahead to $25 trillion, making its economy 60 per cent bigger than the Eurozone. That’s a lot of relative economic decline for the Euro area in just a decade and a half.The failure of Europe to keep pace with America has taken its toll on living standards. The average EU country is now poorer per head than every state in America bar Idaho and Mississippi. In 1990 America accounted for 25 per cent of global GDP, the EU a little above that. Today, America still accounts for 25 per cent of global GDP but the EU’s share has consistently slipped. It is now just over 14 per cent and falling. America has outperformed the EU on every economic indicator that matters. Since 1990 the U.S. working age population has risen from 127 million to 175 million, a rise of almost 40 per cent, while Europe’s has gone from 94 million to 102 million, a rise of only 9 per cent. We need less EU and a lot more USA
@@bryangeake5826 Do you ever wonder why you feel poorer than you did 10 or 20 years ago ? Its all because of the failure of the EU over decades. Consider how much the EU has already declined relative to the United States. Fifteen years ago, according to the IMF, the GDP of the Eurozone was just under $14 trillion, while the U.S. economy was marginally bigger.Today, the Eurozone’s GDP is just under $15 trillion, a modest rise by any standards. But the U.S.’s GDP has roared ahead to $25 trillion, making its economy 60 per cent bigger than the Eurozone. That’s a lot of relative economic decline for the Euro area in just a decade and a half.The failure of Europe to keep pace with America has taken its toll on living standards. The average EU country is now poorer per head than every state in America bar Idaho and Mississippi. In 1990 America accounted for 25 per cent of global GDP, the EU a little above that. Today, America still accounts for 25 per cent of global GDP but the EU’s share has consistently slipped. It is now just over 14 per cent and falling. America has outperformed the EU on every economic indicator that matters. Since 1990 the U.S. working age population has risen from 127 million to 175 million, a rise of almost 40 per cent, while Europe’s has gone from 94 million to 102 million, a rise of only 9 per cent. We need less EU and a lot more USA
Do you ever wonder why you feel poorer than you did 10 or 20 years ago ? Its all because of the failure of the EU over decades. Consider how much the EU has already declined relative to the United States. Fifteen years ago, according to the IMF, the GDP of the Eurozone was just under $14 trillion, while the U.S. economy was marginally bigger.Today, the Eurozone’s GDP is just under $15 trillion, a modest rise by any standards. But the U.S.’s GDP has roared ahead to $25 trillion, making its economy 60 per cent bigger than the Eurozone. That’s a lot of relative economic decline for the Euro area in just a decade and a half.The failure of Europe to keep pace with America has taken its toll on living standards. The average EU country is now poorer per head than every state in America bar Idaho and Mississippi. In 1990 America accounted for 25 per cent of global GDP, the EU a little above that. Today, America still accounts for 25 per cent of global GDP but the EU’s share has consistently slipped. It is now just over 14 per cent and falling. America has outperformed the EU on every economic indicator that matters. We need less EU and a lot more USA
You are right that the EU has been squeezed more by the rise of Asia, (the principal driver of the relative Western impoverishment of the last four decades).than the US. There are two reasons for this, the US lead in technology, directly related to its massive defence spending, which the EU has not and the fact that it is a truly federal political structure with a deep internal market that is effectively protected from external competition in many key sectors, which again the EU has not. Events (including Brexit) are now driving the EU towards much more defence spending, and a deepening of its single market and currency union. So in that sense more US is the solution. The performance gap is a measure of how much the EU has to gain from pursuing such policies and actually means its growth potential now exceeds that of the US (even before an examination of the vulnerabilities of US political federalism revealed in the rise of Trumpism) The problem for the UK is that post Brexit, it finds itself in a position in which it will be very difficult to benefit fully either from the economies of scale of the US or the EU. 51st state poses far more fundamental problems for the UK polity than rejoining the EU. .
@@JohnStevens-gp7gethe EU lacks the raw material wealth that the US has, which is also a contributing factor. As well as the lower level of regulations and thus consumer protection. It creates a very dynamic economy that scores very well in the gdp charts some like to focus on, but scores very poorly on others that are equally important for day to day life of individuals, but not considered in this gdp focused world. And don't forget, the US has been a single market for far longer than the EU.
@@ab-ym3bf Raw materials (at least carbon for energy) are of rapidly declining significance. And you are right on quality of life indexes the EU performs better than the US (and pretty well everywhere else).
There is no economic case to be made for the UK to rejoin the EU, both the UK and EU are struggling economically compared with the US, India and China, year on year the EU is losing worldwide market share. The remainers qften quote the OBR who said the UK would be billions less well off after Brexit. Remember, this is the same OBR that has been £550 billion out with their forecasts since it formed in 2010. I have a worldwide business in the oil & gas sector, it has never been easier to do business with the EU and the ROW, placing engineers on EU oil & gas installations is no problem at all. The planes are still flying, 1 million people didn't lose their jobs and there was not an exodus of banking staff clearing their desks in London to move to Paris, Frankfurt and Amsterdam. Too many naive people believe the BBC, Guardian and that idiot O'Brien, a very sorry state of affairs indeed. Some people are even still blaming the Russians, this has always amused me no end. I bet Carole Cadwalladr then of the Guardian regrets accusing Arron Banks of colluding with the Russians, she had to pay him compensation and his legal fees so be careful what you say. Carole even had the brass neck to set up a crowd funding site to pay her fees etc, I remember Banks thanking them. Its over remainers, its over.
You hope. But Leavers did not give up after 1975, and Rejoiners will not give up now, especially given the speed and scale with which public opinion has turned against Brexit, and those who promoted it.
It's completely inevitable that the UK will rejoin the EU. Brexit is an old people's project and is doomed to die as old people pass away and young people become voters. The only way Brexit can be sustained is if dead people are allowed to vote and anyone born after 1980 is not allowed to vote. It really is that simple
Brexit disaster
Sure is,,,
EU is rubbish.
@@amcc5887 not for the UK electorate. We voted for it.
@@rebecca_nobleI wouldn't bear that decision as a badge of honour
@@rebecca_nobleheard of Bregret ?
I would like Starmer to make it an election pledge to foster greater ties with Europe. Labour may lose a few marginal seats but it’s unlikely to lose them the election. He would get a lot of credit for being honest and he will be in a much more credible position once in power. It’s worth the risk in my view.
The Labour Party and front bench repeatedly said that the highest priority will be Europe
@@kaysi6605 You can bet Labour party campaign literature at the next election will be pro Europe in London,other metropolitan areas and university towns and cities, but the EU and europe won't be mentioned in any campaign literature outside these areas!
I agree the red wall will vote reform anyway. So why not?
You Brits can't help yourself, can you? You can not help talking about Europe as if the UK is not in Europe, as if the UK is a continent of its own.
@@AlexGys9 They probably mean 'Continental Europe' but I agree it's a very _English_ way of reasoning. The UK is and always has been a part of Europe. It's the EU they'd like (or not, depending who you ask) better ties with. Language matters here.
The UK is the country of old and we want special deals. You have your Brexit, crawl under a rock and enjoy it. because the EU doesn't want you anymore
Brexit like the Tory’s is history ….
The EU is working on fiscal union now (ie. Brussels sets tax rates etc., as per EU Five Presidents' Report 2015), in advance of economic union (Lisbon Treaty Article 3.4 / EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). The EU Rome Declaration 2017 wants economic union complete by 2027. The ECB's 'Fiscal Implications of the EU Recovery Package' 2020 advocated getting economic union back on track post-pandemic, and in 2022 all member states reaffirmed their commitment to it, as part of Article 3. It means, of course, one big economy, and obviously requires one central, federal government to run it. Political union is the openly stated aim of these developments (EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). That means one big country, for which there is absolutely no democratic mandate. The European Council claims the right to deploy member states' armed forces as its own (Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3). The European Union Global Strategy, issued exactly one week after the referendum, claims the right of the EU's military "to act autonomously (of NATO) if and when necessary". On 23rd April 2019 the European Council issued its Military Command and Control Structures document, outlining the EU's military command structure over member states' land, sea and air forces, in full accordance with Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3. Reckless EU expansionism includes, as accession countries, Albania (hotbed of gangsterism, corruption and medieval blood feuds), Serbia and Montenegro (both traditional allies of Russia0, Moldova (part of it coveted by Russia), Ukraine (currently at war with Russia) and eventually Turkey (instantly, upon joining, the poorest, largest and most populous member state). All will have their begging bowls out for the money of western European taxpayers, so you can see quite clearly why they want to join. As you should know, having read Lisbon Treaty Article 42, member states are committed to the military aid of a member under attack, so if the Ukraine War isn't resolved by the time it joins, the EU will be at war with Russia. You are excused not knowing about the secret deal within the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership, in effect since 2010, in which the EU offered the free movement of people into Europe from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey. The EU didn't want anybody to know that. But you have no excuses for not knowing about the rest of them.
The EU has moved on even the far right party’s of Italy france want to stay in the eu , as for London mayor khan will win he s massively odds on favourite to do that at 1/8 ,
It's 2024: a majority of Britons have probably realised by now that Brexit has had mostly negative effects. Some are vocal about this, others stay silent. Britons who still think that Brexit has been (or will become) a success are obviously delusional. The 'benefit-of-the-doubt' time-frame has clearly past. People who still 'believe' in Brexit are cultists and others should (imo) stop discussing Brexit with them on merit because it's useless: if reality hasn't sunk in by now, it never will. There's more to be gained in making clear to those Britons who want to become EU members again to approach that process realistically: because it will probably be a long-term endeavour and not just a question of asking the EU nicely .
'Benefit of the doubt time-frame? We've only been out of the EU for four years.Let's wait forty years of being out of the EU (same sort of time frame of our membership) before we make solid conclusions about the benefits of Brexit shall we.Remember the UK was part of this ridiculous union for over forty years and the majority of those who voted wanted to leave anyway in a democratic referendum.......so it couldn't have been that great a club to be a member of in the first place!! Let the EU27 carry on with their federalist model of further integration of member states and let the UK go on their own independent way until we have another referendum on the issue.Hopefully that's many years away ........or preferably never.
@@adrianlloyd6403 Nonsense. The Brexiter claim always was that there would be *immediate* benefits: cheaper clothes, shoes and food, etcetera. Your 'let's wait 40 years' hollow rhetoric stems from the obvious fact that there are and will not be any tangible Brexit benefits, ever. Brexit has damaged the UK and will continue to do so. But you're welcome to your delusions! I understand why they're important to you.
Correct. Though Ukraine, Trump, Climate Change, China etc are all potentially very powerful accelerators.
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Acceleration is hard to achieve when meeting the Copenhagen Criteria is also a necessity for the UK's application. And there's also the issue of *trust* as in: how can the UK convince all EU member states that it won't exit again after a change in government? The EU is, after all, *not a revolving door* .
@@maartenaalsmeer And the 'remain' side argument was that there would be mass unemployment and a recession very soon following Brexit! Both sides made extravagant claims about the repercussions of which way the vote went and after seven and a half years of arguing with remainers, i'm not re-running the referendum campaign again.I'm bored of the subject of reminding remainers it was a democratic referendum, chosen at a time the remainer PM Cameron wanted to hold the referendum, and the remain side LOST with 48% of the vote.'The obvious fact that there are and will not be any tangible Brexit benefits,ever' is such a ludicrous statement when the UK now has its national sovereignty and independence back,saves £12.6bn in payments to the EU and is free to make trade deals around the World with whoever it wants to, for starters.If those aren't tangible benefits then please list the benefits the UK derived from being in the EU for forty years.If other EU countries are happy in the union then good luck to them,the UK voted leave and i hope it stays that way.The only delusional individuals around are individuals like you who think there's a long term future for the EU.The UK has existed in one form or another for nearly 1200 years whereas the common market/EEC/EU has been around under seventy years.If you view the EU27 with rose-tinted specs and is wonderful in everything that it does then let's see what happens on 6-9 June 2024 when the European parliament election results come out.I can see a good many anti-EU MEPs being voted in,not that i care one way or the other.
We live in interesting times. A split of the Tory party is to be welcomed with the way it has lost its marbles, which in turn will help the Labour party and government have that debate about our European identity. We need to have that debate rather than this awful Groundhog Day we're in for the next few months.
I agree, the re-creation of a strongly pro-European Right is as important as raising the courage of the anti-Brexit Left.
"It's all the Tories"
Corby was anti EU all his life.
He was entitled enough to presume he could demand a Customs Union from the EU.
The deputy leader of the LP said she would vote for Brexit if there was a second referendum.
The international party strife in the UK is not our problem.
Not sure many labour members support brexit. But we need a conversation about Europe for sure
You Brits can't help yourself, can you? You can not help talking about Europe as if the UK is not in Europe, as if the UK is a continent of its own.
Why not? The EU is working on fiscal union now (ie. Brussels sets tax rates etc., as per EU Five Presidents' Report 2015), in advance of economic union (Lisbon Treaty Article 3.4 / EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). The EU Rome Declaration 2017 wants economic union complete by 2027. The ECB's 'Fiscal Implications of the EU Recovery Package' 2020 advocated getting economic union back on track post-pandemic, and in 2022 all member states reaffirmed their commitment to it, as part of Article 3. It means, of course, one big economy, and obviously requires one central, federal government to run it. Political union is the openly stated aim of these developments (EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). That means one big country, for which there is absolutely no democratic mandate. The European Council claims the right to deploy member states' armed forces as its own (Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3). The European Union Global Strategy, issued exactly one week after the referendum, claims the right of the EU's military "to act autonomously (of NATO) if and when necessary". On 23rd April 2019 the European Council issued its Military Command and Control Structures document, outlining the EU's military command structure over member states' land, sea and air forces, in full accordance with Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3. Reckless EU expansionism includes, as accession countries, Albania (hotbed of gangsterism, corruption and medieval blood feuds), Serbia and Montenegro (both traditional allies of Russia0, Moldova (part of it coveted by Russia), Ukraine (currently at war with Russia) and eventually Turkey (instantly, upon joining, the poorest, largest and most populous member state). All will have their begging bowls out for the money of western European taxpayers, so you can see quite clearly why they want to join. As you should know, having read Lisbon Treaty Article 42, member states are committed to the military aid of a member under attack, so if the Ukraine War isn't resolved by the time it joins, the EU will be at war with Russia. You are excused not knowing about the secret deal within the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership, in effect since 2010, in which the EU offered the free movement of people into Europe from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey. The EU didn't want anybody to know that. But you have no excuses for not knowing about the rest of them.
@@SJG-nr8ujThank you for the information provided. I do know the EU and what it stands for.
However, I do wonder what your excuse is for not knowing that Europe a continent is whereas the European Union a supranational union is of some, but not all, European countries.
@@AlexGys9 The UK is not in the EU, and the EU is Europe, in terms of the project of Continental-scale unification, which is what the "European issue" amounts to..
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Last time I checked the dictionary, Europe was a continent and not a "project of Continental-scale unification"
Identity isn't something for politicians to decide. It's a cultural issue.
I say that as someone who is on the extreme end of the pro-Europe spectrum. I want Schengen borders, full adoption of the Euro, and a nationwide conversion to the metric system.
In the UK cultural identity and political identity are very much intertwined, as shown for instance by the continuing obsession with WW2. Politicians can contribute to reinforcing or modifying the UK’s political identity.
Politics is surely a key expression of identity.
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Yes, being a Tory identifies with roguish.
You'll eventually get your wish. Brexit is an old people's obsession. Young people don't want it. The tide is turning against Brexit and in only a few years it'll be 80:20 in favour of rejoining the EU. The Labour party can't hold back that tide.
Why do I get so much comfort listening to the immense experience and logic of these two grey haired men!
Could it be because you're not very bright?
If you think we're going to allow Britain "rejoin" OUR union, you're dreaming.
From your fantasy world.
@@rebecca_noble He said 'why' and not 'where', Becca. So: _Because you live in a fantasy world_ would have been more apt. But hey, you tried. Good job!
@@rebecca_noble And who are you?
@@maartenaalsmeer
Stalker.
Actually Labour is united on Brexit, more than 80% of Labour Party members didn't want Brexit and would like it reversed, probably nearly 100% of Labour Party MPs do not want Brexit. It's only the leadership that is pro-Brexit and that's only because they think that Brexit voters are too dim to change their minds as the evidence against Brexit stacks up.
Once the Labour Party wins the election then the need to stay quiet on Brexit so as not to upset Brexiters will be removed, so there will be an almighty fight between the membership and the leadership over Brexit.
That may be true but it doesn't solve the big problem... The EU don't want the UK back. In 2016 British exceptionalism persuaded 17.4 people that "they need us more than we need them".. That same exceptionalism is now convincing people that we can return if we want, this is delusional thinking.
There may well be some British people suffering from that delusion but everyone associated the Federal Trust is aware of the difficulties that lie ahead. Every journey however starts with a first step.
@@brendandonnelly1853 The first step is accepting that it's not our decision to make, a little humility goes a long way.
@@dub604 It is grossly simplistic to say the EU do not want the UK back. A UK fully committed to "Ever Closer Union" the euro, Schegen, more integrated defence etc would be welcomed very enthusiastically. The challenge for UK rejoiners is that the hurdle of getting British opinion to accept such a view of the EU, to see ourselves like Germany or France, currently appears very high. But as Brexit bites, issues surrounding sterling and the economy and the questions of cultural identity raised by immigration and above all, if Trump becomes the next US President, this hurdle may fall away, perhaps very dramatically and very quickly.
The deputy leader said she would vote for Brexit if there was a second referendum.
You Brits can't help yourself, can you? You can not help talking about Europe as if the UK is not in Europe, as if the UK is a continent of its own.
Not really.
We know we are European.
We are just not part of the EU.
I agree, now that the British peasants have realized how irrelevant they are on the world stage that to cling on to the EU to fell somewhat wanted
@@rebecca_nobleno, you do not seem to know.
@@suntzu94 Man who go to bed with itchy bum, wake up with ...
Yes I think the English basic belief is that Europe is somewhere else and not in England. This belief played a key role in Brexit.
On the subject of the ‘special relationship’ - you might have noticed repeated criticisms by the Pentagon of inadequate UK defence budgets and the shrinking capabilities of the Armed Forces.
The French are apparently seen (ironies of ironies) as more ‘relevant’.
That lauded "special relationship" always reminds me of the special relationship between a dog and his favorite lamppost.
The US attitude to the French has much to do with the fact that France's independent nuclear force is genuinely so, unlike that of the UK which is dependent upon US technical support.
If labour go for reunion they get my vote, if not, Lib Dem
Fine if you're in a safe seat, but if you're in a marginal, vote to get the Tories out.
Labour are pro-Europeean, but they're realist in the sense that integration can only be a process, that starts quietly with alignment.
If we didn't have a toxic press and an ongoing culture war over Europe, I'm sure they would be much more openly pro-EU. After all, they brutally ejected the far left Eurosceptic faction from their ranks. But they live in reality, where speaking up too early risks giving the Tories a route back into power, and that cannot be allowed to happen.
We might hear about Brexit again very soon. Labeling of goods, unless they managed to delay it again. Wasn't it supposed to happen in the third quarter of January ?.
Having the Euro will end up being a small price to pay if we can rejoin the E.U…
It's hard to see Brexit featuring at all in a London mayoral election. The electorate won't make the connection between their problems, and the impediments to British trade at the heart of Brexit.
True. For London the decisive Brexit-related negative developments are still in the future, such as the end of euro clearing in 2025.
Khan will win London massive odds on favourite 1/8 , for a record 3rd time
Best of luck then, you'll need it! 😥.
If Labour continue to dither on brexit, they won't be getting my vote. 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
The EU is working on fiscal union now (ie. Brussels sets tax rates etc., as per EU Five Presidents' Report 2015), in advance of economic union (Lisbon Treaty Article 3.4 / EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). The EU Rome Declaration 2017 wants economic union complete by 2027. The ECB's 'Fiscal Implications of the EU Recovery Package' 2020 advocated getting economic union back on track post-pandemic, and in 2022 all member states reaffirmed their commitment to it, as part of Article 3. It means, of course, one big economy, and obviously requires one central, federal government to run it. Political union is the openly stated aim of these developments (EU Five Presidents' Report 2015). That means one big country, for which there is absolutely no democratic mandate. The European Council claims the right to deploy member states' armed forces as its own (Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3). The European Union Global Strategy, issued exactly one week after the referendum, claims the right of the EU's military "to act autonomously (of NATO) if and when necessary". On 23rd April 2019 the European Council issued its Military Command and Control Structures document, outlining the EU's military command structure over member states' land, sea and air forces, in full accordance with Lisbon Treaty Article 42.3. Reckless EU expansionism includes, as accession countries, Albania (hotbed of gangsterism, corruption and medieval blood feuds), Serbia and Montenegro (both traditional allies of Russia0, Moldova (part of it coveted by Russia), Ukraine (currently at war with Russia) and eventually Turkey (instantly, upon joining, the poorest, largest and most populous member state). All will have their begging bowls out for the money of western European taxpayers, so you can see quite clearly why they want to join. As you should know, having read Lisbon Treaty Article 42, member states are committed to the military aid of a member under attack, so if the Ukraine War isn't resolved by the time it joins, the EU will be at war with Russia. You are excused not knowing about the secret deal within the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership, in effect since 2010, in which the EU offered the free movement of people into Europe from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey. The EU didn't want anybody to know that. But you have no excuses for not knowing about the rest of them.
@@SJG-nr8uj
Other than your blatant lie about a secret agreement, which doesn't exist at all, none of your arguments are a reason for concern to any EU citizen.
@@paulomarinho1963 it's no secret.
@@SJG-nr8uj Let's not forget, the Qatargate people wanted to give visa free entry to Qatar people.
They paid millions of euros to the vice president of the EU parliament to represent them in the EU "parliament".
Which has now been swept under the carpet. We never hear about it.
@@paulomarinho1963 This piece is taken from the website of Danish journalist Anders Bruun Laursen
The Euro-Mediterranean Project (EMP) was agreed upon between the EU and Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, the Palestine Authority, Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey, and comprises:
A. Comprehensive political partnerships, among other things about 1. Establishing a free trade area and economic integration, to begin in 2010, 2. Considerably more money for the partners, 3. Cultural partnerships.
B. Respect for Islam is guaranteed by the EU. Multiculturalism is to be respected in order to promote tolerance between different ethnic groups in society. The importance of a resolute common campaign against racism, xenophobia and intolerance is emphasised. Close mutual European-Muslim influence on radio, television, newspapers and magazines is to bring about cultural understanding. The EU will actively promote such mutual influences.
The word “multicultural” seems to have taken on a different meaning here, since there is no reference to Chinese, Indian, North American, Caribbean, South American culture etc., only Islamic.
It would thus appear that the advance of Muslim culture into Europe has been backed by, and even orchestrated by, the European Union. So much for the independence of the media!
In return for concrete political and economic changes the EU offers integration in the expanded internal market of the EU and the possibility to obtain free movement of goods, services, money and people. (This was confirmed in an e-mail sent to Mr Laursen by the then Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen dated 29/8/2006. However, Rasmussen twice refused to inform Mr Laursen why he, other governments and even the media had remained absolutely silent about the Euro-Mediterranean Project).
It would be interesting to see more discussion-specific policies around labour and Europe. It seems to me that they will try anything not to be associated with Brexit, so the media and Conservatives can't pull the focus on that, but they have numerous policies which read like an EU commission check; ist on what to do to become a member, so it would be more interesting to understand what their policies effectively would mean.
Thank you for an informative discussion. There is definitely a rising isolationist trend here in the states and I would say bipartisan. Some political leaders see the downsides of retreating but I'm afraid the public does not. Whatever the outcome, it seems we are headed for a more multi-polar world, economically, militarily, and politically.
Indeed. I like the term "Neo-Westphalian" which makes the parallel with the end of the Thirty Years War, when notions of a single Christendom conforming to one version of Christianity (Catholicism) and with one notion of ideal governance (Absolute Monarchy topped by Emperor and Pope atop a cosmopolitan aristocracy) was supplanted by a more fragmented picture in which emerging nation states (in todays World read cultural regions) developed their own particular and competing identities and governments, most notably Holland and then England. But the West's survival in such a world of great regions, whilst it means shedding its universalism, nevertheless depends upon its own unity, and in particular closer and more equal relations between a more united EU and a still united US (and also greater links between both and Latin America). That is the new Christendom which can meet East and South Asia and Africa on equal terms in the longer run.
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Thank you for your reply. I had to look up the Thirty Years War and the Treaty of Westphalia to understand your remarks. I learnt something. I'm not sanguine given it took a war to create unified, coherent nation states in Europe. While a multi-polar world is not necessarily a bad thing, I hope it doesn't take a war to make the transition.
2 old males totally disconnected to reality of the large majority of working class people outside of London. Masonic Lodge cronies & the dislocation of expectation of these 2 with regards BREXIT, is sadly laughably shocking.
Remember the centrists voting against Corbyn’s customs union amendment? Take a bow.
The arrogance of Corbyn assuming the EU would grant the UK a customs union.
That will never happen.
@@fintonmainz7845 I am talking about the last ditch attempt to keep us in the customs union. The amendment lost by a hand full of votes in parliament.
@@Redf322 a vote in the British parliament is irrelevant.
We in the EU make the decisions.
@@fintonmainz7845you keep coming out with the same line. When the vote took place we were still in the Customs union.
@@Redf322 when you were out of the EU you were out of the cu.
Any normal person could understand that. There is no option to leave the EU and stay in the cu.
The ignorance of the Brits is astonishing
In its current form, and the state of politics right now in the UK, I feel Brexit has a distinct sell by date. I hear a lot of people saying we voted deal with it, as though democracy is a one and done thing. People confuse winning the battle with winnkng the war, yes Brexit was achived but now its about convincing the next generation of voters its worth keeping. Look at the demographic shift taking place in voters, there was a report published in Times a few months back about how the millenial vote, gen X and Gen Z are liberal left wing on average, and with millenials, they are bucking the trend in that they are not becoming more conservative as they age. So for the Tories this represents an existential crisis, because based off this data they wpuld not be able to win an election for a good few decades. Now couple this with All the poling data on millenial, gen x and gen z attitudes towards the EU, do you honestly think that once these generations become the domenant voting polulations, that they will sit there and say I want the UK in the EU, but 15 years ago my mum and dad voted to leave...so i guess ill have to respect their vote, or will they just say im going to push flr the UK to rejoin and as for my mum and dads vote....well i dont care. Also look at the Pro remain youth engagment comalred to brexiteers, i looked for a youtj engagment policy from reform.UK and cpuld not find anything. Brexiteers laugh at remainers because they failed to listen too and engage with the country outside the cities.....well Brexiteers are doing the same with the youth vote. Listen to them try and engage with them and offer something tangible from brexit too them.....or guess what.....they will push for a referendum of their own and they wont vote for Brexit
Brexit never had a chance because of dereliction of duty by the civil service and spineless politicians who refused to fight our corner.After 8 years we'd have been flying with the right people in place .....so cobblers to all REMOANERS THEY LOST.
@@Caesar-3el very well said. I get tired of telling people that David Cameron told the civil service not to bother planning for a leave vote because remain would win the day. Then effed off and left us. It beggars belief that he is back in government again but hopefully not for long.
"as though democracy is a one and done thing" Democracy? Well, that's the problem, the UK is a plutocracy.
well £7billion is what it is so dont think you can just sweep it under my car pet
They no longer prosicute traitors that is a shame
They still prosecute traitors. There is a report on the itv website of such a case in October of last year under the title: 'First UK treason conviction in 43 years - How does it work in law and what are the punishments?'
They do, we can, and probably we will.
Thank you, as always a great debate.
Corbyn voted remain. But for some reason nobody wants to hear that.
The doubt about Corbyn is not about whether he voted Remain or not in 2016. It is the obvious lack of support for British membership of the European Union he has shown throughout his career.
@@brendandonnelly1853still doesn’t mean you can blame Brexit on him like they did. The end result was a hard Brexit. In his words to be skeptic is not to be anti.
@@Redf322 That's true but a lukewarm campaign by Corbyn was the last thing the Remain camp wanted during that period. Brexiters had a simple, strong, and easy to digest message. We had nothing of the sort.
@@Evan490BCthat is also true. But in my opinion it was more important for the people behind PV to stop Corbyn than to stop Brexit.
The real problem for PV was that it depended upon there not being a GE before a second referendum. Corbyn allowed the LDs to push him into an election though they, in turn, were played by the SNP, who despite their (generally) strong pro EU convictions, knew that Brexit would greatly strengthen the pro-independence cause.@@Redf322
"rejecting Brexit" is a ridiculous concept.
"rejecting death" doesn't make people rise from the dead.
Brexit has happened. Brexit was good for the EU and the Brits won't be allowed to join again.
We're better off without the Brits.
The UK democrats will drink to that and couldn't agree more, it's a win, win.
@@jasonkingshott2971 ...nope it was win for the EU and loose for the UK, one that the English xenophobes will always drink to, as no cost incured is ever great enough to dissrupt the Brexit Faith!
@@bryangeake5826 Still haven't learnt anything?
@@jasonkingshott2971 Well, one thing yes, Brexiteers never ever demonstrate evidence , its all assertion, inuendo and prejudice!
@@bryangeake5826 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We didn't even negotiate the Brexit Treaty which is why we are:-
Still committed to sending ever increasing £Billions to the EU
The EU are still allowed to fish right up to our shores.
We are still in the ECHR
We are still obeying every EU rule and EU law.
We allowed the annexation of Northern Ireland to maintain THEIR border but they can send all their unwanted migrants here ignoring OUR border.
We gave control of our Intelligence services and armed forces to the EU
We have signed up to allow the WHO to dictate UK policy for the 'next' pandemic.
This was not Brexit; it was a treasonous betrayal by the establishment to allow a future Government to negotiate an EU return.
The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU, or Brexit.
You currently enjoy reciprocal fishing rights with EU vessels in your waters, and yours in theirs.
You aren't sending increasing billions to the EU.
You obey such rules as your customer imposes for the TCA you sought, and signed. It was only available to you on the basis of keeping your international commitments in the GFA that the British/ EU border in Ireland not be militarised.
"negotiate an EU return" No, the UK has lost that right, the ball is in the EU's court now. And they have made it quite clear, there won't be any renegotiations.
"We are still obeying every EU rule and EU law" Name one!!
Your comment is positive proof that Brexiters live in a world of make believe not in the real world.
In the real world if you want to trade with the EU then you have to follow EU rules. Most of our trade is with the EU because they're next door. Therefore we have to follow EU rules. The CBI and the IOD want us to maintain alignment with EU rules because it helps businesses trade with the EU.
In areas where we have deviated from EU rules it's always been in the direction of making things worse. We no longer have to comply with EU rules on water pollution, the result is that water companies can now pollute our rivers and the sea around us with sewage. Is that a Brexit benefit?
We no longer have to comply with EU rules on pesticides in food, the result is that we now have more dangerous pesticide residues in the food we eat. Is that a Brexit benefit?
The European Convention on Human Rights was a brain child of Winston Churchill. It was born after the second world war to guard against the resurgence of fascism by protecting the rights of people. Since the Tory party is a fascist party they want to exit the ECHR so they can remove the rights of the lower classes and lord it over peasants without restraints.
The question you have to ask yourself is why is it that very rich people and politicians who work for very rich people are so keen to get the little people to vote away their rights.
The EU Single Market was a brain child of Margaret Thatcher, she regarded it as her biggest achievement. The UK was the key driver in creating the EU Single Market, against the sovereignty of France which didn't like the idea of Anglo-Saxon free markets.
Northern Ireland has not been annexed. The wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, that they should stay in the EU and not have a border with the Republic of Ireland are respected.
"We gave control of our Intelligence services and armed forces to the EU"
This is completely bonkers and totally wrong. Where on Earth did you get that idea?
We're key part of NATO, so we're fully integrated in the NATO command system. Are you suggesting we should leave NATO as well as leaving the EU? That would be the most utterly insane thing to do given that it's exactly what Putin wants.
"We have signed up to allow the WHO to dictate UK policy for the 'next' pandemic."
Do you realise that the World Health Organisation is not part of the European Union. The clue is in the word "World" . The WHO doesn't dictate policy, it advises nations on how to deal with health issues.
The pandemic was a world wide health problem so of course the World Health Organisation was helping to co-ordinate a response to it.
If you want to justify Brexit you'll have to come up with some real benefits of leaving the real world to live in a world of make believe.
@@JohnSmall314
They being the founder tribes "Anglo-Saxon free markets"
The Germans and the Danes will be very glad to hear that one.
Um, looks like you've got AllenTaylor-lu9bu by the balls👍
your out, you won STAY OUT I DO NOT WANT YOU BACK ...............bye
@@chrimbus71 I was more refering to Brexit returds.you are not welcome back in the EU
No need to get excited. It's all going to take a long time so you can go back to sleep for 5 years. At least.
@@Purple_flower09 I hope to be long gone before you ever get a chance to re apply again, the UK treated people like shit, barganing chips etc a Polish guy was killed for being Polish in essex and a friend of mine was assaulted for speaking Portuguese so stay away !! bye
@@antonioguerreiro1615 nothing is happening except some old guys are having a chat. In a large EU survey the UK was less racist than most EU countries according to ethnic minorities. But you are not interested in a large scale EU study of course. Calm down dear.
Long live freedom from the Eu, long live Brexit.
Agreed, brexit will live long. Since the UK will not qualify for new membership for a long time, it will have to deal with the fall-out from a deluded move for decades.
Traitor.
Who’s a traitor ? @@Lucretia9000
Traitor
your out stay out bye bye we breath better without you unicorn chaser
Listening to supposed experts dreaming about rejoining the EU is very entertaining. Starmer is not going to waste a moment on the issue, because it will cost him PM, as it did before. The costs of returning would be unacceptable to the UK, Euro, and Schengen, with much higher fees and FOM back worthless custom Union, its for the birds. It might be interesting to talk about a dream that's never going to happen, just try not to forget it's never going to happen. We are out of the EU forever.
It seems no one in the UK is capable of dealing with reality.
Half the population has deluded brexiter dreams, the other half has deluded "rejoiner" dreams.
Neither part dares to face the reality of a UK outside the EU.
I am not sure if "for the birds" is used in the UK very often. At least I always thought of it to be more of an American phrase. "Go figure".
I disagree. The EU is constantly evolving and so the EU that the UK is dealing with now is different in a few years. The is al ready very closely aligned with most EU rules and standards and is, in fact, slowly but surely backtracking on the dream of Singapore on Thames. Is remain very convinved that the UK will remain very closely aligned with the EU also in the future and will create more and more close connections. A special arrangement is emerging gradually. The will have change dramatically in the future due to new memberships from the East.
Call it membership or not. After all, like Farage said: Brexit is a failure.
Time to move on and face reality.
@@larslarsen5414 Sorry Lars, the EU is on an inevitable demise to fragmenting breaking up. It is inevitable. I appreciate you want to be hopeful, thts fine, I am a realist and the big picture is the EU is stagnating, it has many countries citizens turning to the Extreme right wing for guidance and electoral power. The is a massive financial crisis coming across the globe which will finish the political EURO, being optimistic and sticking your head in the sand might work for you but its not going to work when the shit hits the fan. The UK will also massively suffered but having our own currency will go a long way to insulate us. Brexit will be recognised as saving the UK.
@@dac545j The phrase "for the birds is 100 % English and in common use here.
Khan's ulez is worst.
Do they. What a surprise! As I hear it a lot of Londoners turn down the UK. We had a democratic vote, it's over, stop trying to foment dissension at every turn. I voted remain, a wrong decision in hindsight, the EU have behaved like spiteful unelected malcontents and it's falling apart slowly riven with discontent and in fighting. They desperately need our money to prop up their ridiculous projects. Bring on the Euro? God help us!
But democracy isn't over. We vote regularly. Are you trying to prevent any more elections?
You voted remain, sure.
That vote was based on several mistruths. How can you have a nationwide vote, turns out the information used to sway voters was literally false (money going into the NHS for example) - and the mistruth that basically business deals were all but guaranteed in the Golden Goose that they claimed Brexit would be.
the vote was a near literal 50/50 split. The government can only rule with a majority and the fact it was able to go ahead when it was that close is insane. With a re-vote with the newer facts I don't doubt people would be voting overwhelmingly against Brexit; but unfortunately the tories have burnt a lot of bridges with the EU.
Fact is that we are in the EU and we are geographically choosing to stunt ourselves by not having good working relations with our closest neighbours.
Seriously? After 40 years of wailing from the anti-EU mob?
NOT gonna happen .... deal with it!
The Brexit question isn't going anywhere. Joining again will take a very long time but you might as well get used to it being discussed.
The point most people forget is that trade with the EU as a total percentage of total UK was declining, and that any lose of EU tradeoffs the last 7 years and or the next 5 would put the UK/EU at a level that it would have been even.being in the EU. Trade with the EU has been declining for decades.
Indeed or her parts of the world are growing faster than the EU as a whole. The only read difference with trade is not how much as the amounts will be much the sane but would the UK have their own trade competency negotiating for their own benefits or would they outsource to the EU competency that focused on some harmonised EU wide view.
Brexit (TCA) remains unique in being the only trade agreement which actually increases barriers to economic interaction between its signatories.
Not in overall value, that was increasing, the proportion was declinging not its vaule, it wasworth £300 bllion per annum, 43% of our total export trade goods and services, now i decline! And the reason was that world trade, particularly with China, had grown. But to say the EU trade was simply becomming 'unimportant' and that cure of the graph would simply continue wa both economically illiterate and total speculative!
@@JohnStevens-gp7ge Do you ever wonder why you feel poorer than you did 10 or 20 years ago ? Its all because of the failure of the EU over decades. Consider how much the EU has already declined relative to the United States. Fifteen years ago, according to the IMF, the GDP of the Eurozone was just under $14 trillion, while the U.S. economy was marginally bigger.Today, the Eurozone’s GDP is just under $15 trillion, a modest rise by any standards. But the U.S.’s GDP has roared ahead to $25 trillion, making its economy 60 per cent bigger than the Eurozone. That’s a lot of relative economic decline for the Euro area in just a decade and a half.The failure of Europe to keep pace with America has taken its toll on living standards. The average EU country is now poorer per head than every state in America bar Idaho and Mississippi. In 1990 America accounted for 25 per cent of global GDP, the EU a little above that. Today, America still accounts for 25 per cent of global GDP but the EU’s share has consistently slipped. It is now just over 14 per cent and falling. America has outperformed the EU on every economic indicator that matters. Since 1990 the U.S. working age population has risen from 127 million to 175 million, a rise of almost 40 per cent, while Europe’s has gone from 94 million to 102 million, a rise of only 9 per cent. We need less EU and a lot more USA
@@bryangeake5826 Do you ever wonder why you feel poorer than you did 10 or 20 years ago ? Its all because of the failure of the EU over decades. Consider how much the EU has already declined relative to the United States. Fifteen years ago, according to the IMF, the GDP of the Eurozone was just under $14 trillion, while the U.S. economy was marginally bigger.Today, the Eurozone’s GDP is just under $15 trillion, a modest rise by any standards. But the U.S.’s GDP has roared ahead to $25 trillion, making its economy 60 per cent bigger than the Eurozone. That’s a lot of relative economic decline for the Euro area in just a decade and a half.The failure of Europe to keep pace with America has taken its toll on living standards. The average EU country is now poorer per head than every state in America bar Idaho and Mississippi. In 1990 America accounted for 25 per cent of global GDP, the EU a little above that. Today, America still accounts for 25 per cent of global GDP but the EU’s share has consistently slipped. It is now just over 14 per cent and falling. America has outperformed the EU on every economic indicator that matters. Since 1990 the U.S. working age population has risen from 127 million to 175 million, a rise of almost 40 per cent, while Europe’s has gone from 94 million to 102 million, a rise of only 9 per cent. We need less EU and a lot more USA
I think you have made this point already.@@garyb455
Do you ever wonder why you feel poorer than you did 10 or 20 years ago ? Its all because of the failure of the EU over decades. Consider how much the EU has already declined relative to the United States. Fifteen years ago, according to the IMF, the GDP of the Eurozone was just under $14 trillion, while the U.S. economy was marginally bigger.Today, the Eurozone’s GDP is just under $15 trillion, a modest rise by any standards. But the U.S.’s GDP has roared ahead to $25 trillion, making its economy 60 per cent bigger than the Eurozone. That’s a lot of relative economic decline for the Euro area in just a decade and a half.The failure of Europe to keep pace with America has taken its toll on living standards. The average EU country is now poorer per head than every state in America bar Idaho and Mississippi. In 1990 America accounted for 25 per cent of global GDP, the EU a little above that. Today, America still accounts for 25 per cent of global GDP but the EU’s share has consistently slipped. It is now just over 14 per cent and falling. America has outperformed the EU on every economic indicator that matters. We need less EU and a lot more USA
You are right that the EU has been squeezed more by the rise of Asia, (the principal driver of the relative Western impoverishment of the last four decades).than the US. There are two reasons for this, the US lead in technology, directly related to its massive defence spending, which the EU has not and the fact that it is a truly federal political structure with a deep internal market that is effectively protected from external competition in many key sectors, which again the EU has not. Events (including Brexit) are now driving the EU towards much more defence spending, and a deepening of its single market and currency union. So in that sense more US is the solution. The performance gap is a measure of how much the EU has to gain from pursuing such policies and actually means its growth potential now exceeds that of the US (even before an examination of the vulnerabilities of US political federalism revealed in the rise of Trumpism) The problem for the UK is that post Brexit, it finds itself in a position in which it will be very difficult to benefit fully either from the economies of scale of the US or the EU. 51st state poses far more fundamental problems for the UK polity than rejoining the EU. .
Boring repetition of a post we have been seeing for months now.
@@JohnStevens-gp7gethe EU lacks the raw material wealth that the US has, which is also a contributing factor.
As well as the lower level of regulations and thus consumer protection. It creates a very dynamic economy that scores very well in the gdp charts some like to focus on, but scores very poorly on others that are equally important for day to day life of individuals, but not considered in this gdp focused world.
And don't forget, the US has been a single market for far longer than the EU.
@@ab-ym3bf Raw materials (at least carbon for energy) are of rapidly declining significance. And you are right on quality of life indexes the EU performs better than the US (and pretty well everywhere else).
@@ab-ym3bfthe us and the eu do t want sewer islands…😂😂😂
There is no economic case to be made for the UK to rejoin the EU, both the UK and EU are struggling economically compared with the US, India and China, year on year the EU is losing worldwide market share. The remainers qften quote the OBR who said the UK would be billions less well off after Brexit. Remember, this is the same OBR that has been £550 billion out with their forecasts since it formed in 2010. I have a worldwide business in the oil & gas sector, it has never been easier to do business with the EU and the ROW, placing engineers on EU oil & gas installations is no problem at all. The planes are still flying, 1 million people didn't lose their jobs and there was not an exodus of banking staff clearing their desks in London to move to Paris, Frankfurt and Amsterdam. Too many naive people believe the BBC, Guardian and that idiot O'Brien, a very sorry state of affairs indeed. Some people are even still blaming the Russians, this has always amused me no end. I bet Carole Cadwalladr then of the Guardian regrets accusing Arron Banks of colluding with the Russians, she had to pay him compensation and his legal fees so be careful what you say. Carole even had the brass neck to set up a crowd funding site to pay her fees etc, I remember Banks thanking them. Its over remainers, its over.
You hope. But Leavers did not give up after 1975, and Rejoiners will not give up now, especially given the speed and scale with which public opinion has turned against Brexit, and those who promoted it.
It's completely inevitable that the UK will rejoin the EU. Brexit is an old people's project and is doomed to die as old people pass away and young people become voters.
The only way Brexit can be sustained is if dead people are allowed to vote and anyone born after 1980 is not allowed to vote.
It really is that simple