Become a Sola Partner and we'll send you a complimentary copy of Michael Horton's book, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World → solamedia.org/partner
The Orthodox Christian tradition has 2000 years of experience with this sort of thing and a full, developed angelology and demonology which not only explain such experiences but also come with all the tools necessary for the proper Christian life which is inherently exorcistic. Orthodox Christian tradition accounts for a crowded spiritual world -- demons, yes, but also angels and saints, the great cloud of witnesses with which we interact every day. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is precisely the announcement of His victory over demons, sin, and death, which then is the reason for His sending out into the world the apostles and all the saints to reclaim the creation from its former oppressors, for all authority in heaven and earth has been returned to Him. Christianities that function in a flattened, disenchanted frame, systematically turning a blind eye to the whole spiritual world of the holy ones of God, don't know what to do when the enchantment breaks through whether we like it or not. This is part of why Orthodox churches in many places now are seeing an influx of former occult practitioners, neopagans, Wiccans, etc., not to mention many Christians disillusioned with churches whose whole spiritual life is defined by four bare walls and sermons, perhaps enhanced by emotionally exciting pop music always a few years behind the secular originals they imitate.
"The devout Christian of the future will either be a ‘mystic’-someone who has ‘experienced something’-or will cease to be anything at all." - Karl Rahner. The critical question, IMO, is whether today's church can lead people starting at Romans 5:1 (justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ) all the way *through* Romans 5:5 (God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.) The latter, if it is lived experience, is all the mysticism we need, but cannot be isolated from the rigors of Christian discipleship (suffering, perseverance, character and hope.see vv. 3-4). In our 21st century culture of convenience and instant fixes, few of us are well equipped to be such disciples and, consequently, even less equipped to make such disciples.
I agree. We are living in a time where the inner self and one's "experiences" in worship are the controlling agent of a human's connection to God, not the external word. It's in the church as well. Music, for example, is intended to create a sense of euphoria amongst the congregation, not to extol the glory of the infinite God with whom we have to do. It is very man-centered. It also seems to be very feminine oriented, which is why so young men have basically abandoned the evangelical church.
I think there's a need for deeper commentary and study on this: "...they take psychedelics or explore the occult or Wicca and realize, ‘Something is happening when I do this. This is real.’” If these experiences are real, how do believing Christians respond to those who have encountered them or are drawn to them? What is the fully developed message or explanations we offer? If their experiences are genuine, what informed caution should we provide? How can point them toward Christ for genuine spiritual connection, away from deceptive signs, wonders, or fleeting spiritual power? For believers, how do we stand firm or defend ourselves against real spiritual power that's aimed at us? It’s not about relying on objects like holy water or crucifixes, but it can't be just to avert our eyes from the shaman and get away asap before he notices us...-so what does resistance look like? How do we fight and defend spiritually in a way that is biblical?
We "fight and defend spiritualy" in the way the historical Church has taught for the past 2,000 years (I'm talking about the Orthodox Church). As an Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick wrote in his comment above, _The Orthodox Christian tradition has 2000 years of experience with this sort of thing and a full, developed angelology and demonology which not only explain such experiences but also come with all the tools necessary for the proper Christian life which is inherently exorcistic._
With all due respect, I'm not sure what Michael Horton's contribution was to this discussion. I loved hearing these orthodox believers talk about what we know intimately in the Orthodox Church. That, the demons are real and that they use our passions to get us enslaved. It's why we deny the devil and all his works when we are baptized and why we pray "protect us from the evil one. "
I agree - I recommend Horton expand upon his reference to the "mystical union with Christ" as the essence of the Christian life and salvation. Orthodox stress theosis and many Reformed have never been thoroughly grounded in union with Christ. He should also be more careful and detailed in his discussion of the spiritual dimension to our everyday life. He critiques the view that there is a roof to the material beyond which is the spiritual then seems to make comments reflect that mindset.
I was reading Berkhof. He says religion is concerned with man's relation to God and that God defines the conditions and terms of that relationship. When somebody says they're spiritual but not religious, I believe they're saying (in essence) that THEY want to define the terms and conditions of their relationship to God. That gives them the freedom to pursue any kind of spirituality they desire. It also allows them to jettison doctrines like original sin or abandoned the biblical precepts on human sexuality. However, when they do this they are fundamentally committing idolatry. I realize there are some who that say that just to distance themselves from organize religion, but I believe the majority fall in the latter camp.
My takeaway from this video is that Michael Horton actually agrees with everything Jonathan and Fr. Stephen have said. It seems that he was having a difficult time finding very much to “react” to.
“Every spiritual blessing” is found in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:3). Praise God that Paul wrote ‘every’ and not ‘some’ or even ‘most of’. All spiritual blessing is found in him. The height of spiritual experience is found in him as his Spirit illuminates and enlivens us to his word. Any spiritual experience pursued outside of the person of Jesus Christ will not, ultimately, be a blessing. Quite the opposite, it be a curse.
Become a Sola Partner and we'll send you a complimentary copy of Michael Horton's book, Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World → solamedia.org/partner
The Orthodox Christian tradition has 2000 years of experience with this sort of thing and a full, developed angelology and demonology which not only explain such experiences but also come with all the tools necessary for the proper Christian life which is inherently exorcistic. Orthodox Christian tradition accounts for a crowded spiritual world -- demons, yes, but also angels and saints, the great cloud of witnesses with which we interact every day. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is precisely the announcement of His victory over demons, sin, and death, which then is the reason for His sending out into the world the apostles and all the saints to reclaim the creation from its former oppressors, for all authority in heaven and earth has been returned to Him.
Christianities that function in a flattened, disenchanted frame, systematically turning a blind eye to the whole spiritual world of the holy ones of God, don't know what to do when the enchantment breaks through whether we like it or not.
This is part of why Orthodox churches in many places now are seeing an influx of former occult practitioners, neopagans, Wiccans, etc., not to mention many Christians disillusioned with churches whose whole spiritual life is defined by four bare walls and sermons, perhaps enhanced by emotionally exciting pop music always a few years behind the secular originals they imitate.
Imagine my surprise of finding Pageau and Fr. Damick on this channel (I'm Orthodox, formerly Reformed Protestant for 30 years).
Spot on regarding the comment about disenchanted, flattened Christianities... Its exhausting.
Glory to God in the Highest, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. ❤
"The devout Christian of the future will either be a ‘mystic’-someone who has ‘experienced something’-or will cease to be anything at all." - Karl Rahner. The critical question, IMO, is whether today's church can lead people starting at Romans 5:1 (justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ) all the way *through* Romans 5:5 (God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.) The latter, if it is lived experience, is all the mysticism we need, but cannot be isolated from the rigors of Christian discipleship (suffering, perseverance, character and hope.see vv. 3-4). In our 21st century culture of convenience and instant fixes, few of us are well equipped to be such disciples and, consequently, even less equipped to make such disciples.
I agree. We are living in a time where the inner self and one's "experiences" in worship are the controlling agent of a human's connection to God, not the external word. It's in the church as well. Music, for example, is intended to create a sense of euphoria amongst the congregation, not to extol the glory of the infinite God with whom we have to do. It is very man-centered. It also seems to be very feminine oriented, which is why so young men have basically abandoned the evangelical church.
I think there's a need for deeper commentary and study on this: "...they take psychedelics or explore the occult or Wicca and realize, ‘Something is happening when I do this. This is real.’”
If these experiences are real, how do believing Christians respond to those who have encountered them or are drawn to them? What is the fully developed message or explanations we offer? If their experiences are genuine, what informed caution should we provide? How can point them toward Christ for genuine spiritual connection, away from deceptive signs, wonders, or fleeting spiritual power?
For believers, how do we stand firm or defend ourselves against real spiritual power that's aimed at us? It’s not about relying on objects like holy water or crucifixes, but it can't be just to avert our eyes from the shaman and get away asap before he notices us...-so what does resistance look like? How do we fight and defend spiritually in a way that is biblical?
We "fight and defend spiritualy" in the way the historical Church has taught for the past 2,000 years (I'm talking about the Orthodox Church). As an Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick wrote in his comment above, _The Orthodox Christian tradition has 2000 years of experience with this sort of thing and a full, developed angelology and demonology which not only explain such experiences but also come with all the tools necessary for the proper Christian life which is inherently exorcistic._
With all due respect, I'm not sure what Michael Horton's contribution was to this discussion. I loved hearing these orthodox believers talk about what we know intimately in the Orthodox Church. That, the demons are real and that they use our passions to get us enslaved. It's why we deny the devil and all his works when we are baptized and why we pray "protect us from the evil one. "
I'm not sure what your contribution is.
I agree - I recommend Horton expand upon his reference to the "mystical union with Christ" as the essence of the Christian life and salvation. Orthodox stress theosis and many Reformed have never been thoroughly grounded in union with Christ. He should also be more careful and detailed in his discussion of the spiritual dimension to our everyday life. He critiques the view that there is a roof to the material beyond which is the spiritual then seems to make comments reflect that mindset.
I was reading Berkhof. He says religion is concerned with man's relation to God and that God defines the conditions and terms of that relationship. When somebody says they're spiritual but not religious, I believe they're saying (in essence) that THEY want to define the terms and conditions of their relationship to God. That gives them the freedom to pursue any kind of spirituality they desire. It also allows them to jettison doctrines like original sin or abandoned the biblical precepts on human sexuality. However, when they do this they are fundamentally committing idolatry. I realize there are some who that say that just to distance themselves from organize religion, but I believe the majority fall in the latter camp.
Spot on.
My takeaway from this video is that Michael Horton actually agrees with everything Jonathan and Fr. Stephen have said. It seems that he was having a difficult time finding very much to “react” to.
“Every spiritual blessing” is found in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:3). Praise God that Paul wrote ‘every’ and not ‘some’ or even ‘most of’. All spiritual blessing is found in him. The height of spiritual experience is found in him as his Spirit illuminates and enlivens us to his word. Any spiritual experience pursued outside of the person of Jesus Christ will not, ultimately, be a blessing. Quite the opposite, it be a curse.
Amen! Knowing and loving Jesus. He is our Perfect Gift. ❤
Nah - silence and Presence
srsly?