I do love that the DC 20 encourages teamwork by giving you the option to protecting allies. Which also makes this spell great for the DC 20 version of counterspelling
Thank you for the reply! I agree! While its not a guarantee, a spell duel between magic missile and shield sounds so much cooler than, “I take no damage just because.”
I really like these spell comparison videos you're doing. It's something that I've wanted to do on my own (minus the video) but haven't gotten around to. So thanks for saving me the initial leg work!
In AD&D, it also blocked magic missile. I think it had a limit of how many hit points it blocked from magic missile, and when it took too much the spell duration would end. The shield spell lasted for a while, but was usually only cast by low level wizards, and it was a level 1 spell. There were cantrips but they were specifically minor, generally useless spells.
There's one more thing about the DC20 rules that enhance that +5 bonus to defenses: every damaging spell in the system requires a spell attack roll, so it's a spell with wider application
Personally for me, what really sells the DC20 version as the winner isn't actually its effects vs the others, its the interaction it has with the system as a whole that does it. In the D&D/PF2 versions you lose something when casting the spell, either a spell slot (D&D) or the spell itself for 10 mins (PF2) which reduces you options going forward and promotes a mindset of "saving it for the big hit/emergency" whereas the DC20 versions interaction of its base version without enhancements promotes a "no reason not to use it" mindset, as long as you have 1AP there is little reason not to pop it off even if it doesn't make the incoming attack miss as that +5 is essentially saying drop the incoming attack a level on the damage degree (Brutal Hits -> Heavy Hit -> Hit) which can mean the difference between staying in the fight and unlike the other 2 you're not sitting there after going down thinking "should have used shield"
I agree with all of your points. Also, the fact that you can cast it to protect an Ally just leans into good fun team play that the other versions cant touch.
It makes a lot of sense to me that the DC20 Shield doesn't have a special interaction with MM... MM is such a quintessential representation of D&D, including Gygax himself but particularly the Vancian spell system. So I'll let WotC keep that part of it, and embrace the benefits in DC20.
Someone left a comment on a video that made me think of how Shield can stop Magic Missile. And its another example of DC20s rules shining. You could spell duel Magic Missile with Shield! I cant wait to see this come up in a game. And it might in the next live play we host.
@@RollWithUsDMs A bit of rules analysis here and consideration of homebrew mechanics... if it's not your cup of tea to really participate in it I can't blame you, but perhaps it's at least groundwork for what I'd call an interesting conversation.... so... I'll give it a shot in the spirit of "can do no harm"(worst case might be, say, that W.White Jessie Pinkman conversation meme 😆) An idea another DC20 enthusiast had ( Houdini at the DC20 Discord ), involved the implications of the Spell Duel mechanics, and how it sort of conceptually opens the door to some questions. The way DC runs Spell Duels (SD) is really cinematic. Lightning clashing with lightning in mid air... pretty much anything clashing with anything like Harry Potter or Anime attack rays. It's quite arbitrary or improvisational. The question was raised, then, about spell-like effects. A Dragon or Dragonborn's breath weapon, for example... has an effect, in the case of the red dragon type, like the Burning Hands spell. Perhaps you can see the direction this heads if you imagine a physical effect spell being reacted to by that sort of effect... mechanically it seems like it could be considered an opposed roll like a SD. If such a thing were to be allowed, MANY spells could act as a defensive measure (edit: almost the same as a Shield spell). You could even extend these spells to resist or oppose other kinds of non-spell attacks. Most DMs or rules designers would simply say "that's not how the rules work", and not consider it further. Do not do so is to run up against the question of how viable such an expanded view on SD mechanics while coinciding with the Shield spell would be, especially for balance... and then... why wouldn't physical attacks have opportunity for opposed rolls also? Any way to do it without changing all DC20 attack mechanics into games where combat is done by opposed rolls?
@@RollWithUsDMs I'm a fan of the effectiveness of the reacting combatant's "Attack Duel" being arbitrated according to how strong the defending effort is... a torch being almost totally ridiculously weak against a Ray of Frost, for example... (and a really poor or desperate choice for how to use an Action Point), where maybe a brazier full of oil might not be so weak, or a white Dragonborn's breath weapon against Burning Hands perhaps
@@RollWithUsDMs Hmm... I think I've based my analysis on some assumptions about what is and isn't easy to do with Reactions in this system. Namely that Reactions don't happen without specific triggers... Ao Opportunity for martials and Spell Duel for spellcasters, or Held Actions. I'm basically trying to make DC20 follow the rules of a different game 😅
I think shield in dc20 wins solely on the fact you can use it to protect someone else. That alone makes it so cool. Also it's just as useful as the others.
The problem with the Pathfinder version is somebody ruined it for everyone. Somebody probably blocked everything, and in response they gave a 10 minute timeout.
Very likely true. It is still a good spell within PF2e, but it just doesnt stack up when you take that cool down into effect. Also, while every +1 matters in PF2e, the +5 in DC 20, in a system where every 5 over matters, this is way more impactful. Thank you for your thoughts!
@@RollWithUsDMs Yeah, shield in DC20 has way less downside than 5e/pathfinder. Regardless of the version, it feels bad when you waste actions and the roll was very low and missed anyway, though at least with 5e and with DC20 if you pay the enhancement then you get it for the round, and if not, well then it probably didn't cost mana (so all you lose in the worst case is an action in DC20). Pathfinder it feels so bad since actions are so valuable, and the +1 means that it is so unlikely to make a difference between a hit and a miss (though the +10 crit rules mean that it can make a difference even in big hits). Attacks that missed anyway feel bad in PF2e. As far as over-AC hits, the 5e shield spell either feels bad or is broken, depending on if the DM rolls attacks publicly and lets you shield after the roll or not. if as-written, the spell feels bad since it does nothing; at least in PF you can shield block a good amount of damage, and in DC 20 you are guaranteed to save at least 1 damage.
Thank you for your comment! It is very strong, but it is similar to the parry maneuver of martial characters. The extra power over parry is its boost to MD and the MP enhancements. Maybe it will get tweaked in the spell overhaul.
@@RollWithUsDMs I think it’s also that with extra mana it can be cast at range. Right now in sessions it feels like mana is pretty plentiful. But there is the mana spend limit that helps keep that in check.
I have run a lot of DC20 over the last 3 months. 6 mana points vs 2 spell slots sounds like a lot, but it goes fast, especially if you use the MP for other class features. The mana spend limit is a good rule. It also opens up a more flexible “upcasting” of spells when you reach the higher levels. If you watch our live play “Menace Under Otari” DC20 conversion, you will see how strong and useful the parry maneuver is, especially when you can parry for an ally. Being able to essentially parry at range is very good, and probably fair for 1 MP. Now that the cleric has a “shortsword of Shielding” which has given her the shield spell, I guess I will find out the power of it when I run part 2 of the adventure.
@@RollWithUsDMs caught a little of it, great stuff! I’ve been on the receiving end of parry’s and heroic parry’s and raised shields and side steps and shield spells and all sorts of defensive reactions which mostly stack so I’m well familiar with their power!
I do love that the DC 20 encourages teamwork by giving you the option to protecting allies. Which also makes this spell great for the DC 20 version of counterspelling
Oh wow, I hadnt even thought about a spell duel with shield! It can stop Magic Missile!
@@RollWithUsDMs Good point! It's not guaranteed though, as a spell duel is a contest. But from a game design standpoint is honestly better.
Thank you for the reply! I agree! While its not a guarantee, a spell duel between magic missile and shield sounds so much cooler than, “I take no damage just because.”
I really like these spell comparison videos you're doing. It's something that I've wanted to do on my own (minus the video) but haven't gotten around to. So thanks for saving me the initial leg work!
Thank you for your comment! I am glad you are enjoying the content! Do you have a spell you would like me to do next?
You got really proficient with DC20 in a VERY short amount of time. Color me impressed.
Thank you!
Agree!
In AD&D, it also blocked magic missile. I think it had a limit of how many hit points it blocked from magic missile, and when it took too much the spell duration would end. The shield spell lasted for a while, but was usually only cast by low level wizards, and it was a level 1 spell. There were cantrips but they were specifically minor, generally useless spells.
Thank you for your insight into AD&D!
There's one more thing about the DC20 rules that enhance that +5 bonus to defenses: every damaging spell in the system requires a spell attack roll, so it's a spell with wider application
Thank you for your comment! Good observation! Shield is very good!
Personally for me, what really sells the DC20 version as the winner isn't actually its effects vs the others, its the interaction it has with the system as a whole that does it. In the D&D/PF2 versions you lose something when casting the spell, either a spell slot (D&D) or the spell itself for 10 mins (PF2) which reduces you options going forward and promotes a mindset of "saving it for the big hit/emergency" whereas the DC20 versions interaction of its base version without enhancements promotes a "no reason not to use it" mindset, as long as you have 1AP there is little reason not to pop it off even if it doesn't make the incoming attack miss as that +5 is essentially saying drop the incoming attack a level on the damage degree (Brutal Hits -> Heavy Hit -> Hit) which can mean the difference between staying in the fight and unlike the other 2 you're not sitting there after going down thinking "should have used shield"
I agree with all of your points. Also, the fact that you can cast it to protect an Ally just leans into good fun team play that the other versions cant touch.
It makes a lot of sense to me that the DC20 Shield doesn't have a special interaction with MM... MM is such a quintessential representation of D&D, including Gygax himself but particularly the Vancian spell system. So I'll let WotC keep that part of it, and embrace the benefits in DC20.
Someone left a comment on a video that made me think of how Shield can stop Magic Missile. And its another example of DC20s rules shining. You could spell duel Magic Missile with Shield! I cant wait to see this come up in a game. And it might in the next live play we host.
@@RollWithUsDMs
A bit of rules analysis here and consideration of homebrew mechanics... if it's not your cup of tea to really participate in it I can't blame you, but perhaps it's at least groundwork for what I'd call an interesting conversation.... so... I'll give it a shot in the spirit of "can do no harm"(worst case might be, say, that W.White Jessie Pinkman conversation meme 😆)
An idea another DC20 enthusiast had ( Houdini at the DC20 Discord ), involved the implications of the Spell Duel mechanics, and how it sort of conceptually opens the door to some questions.
The way DC runs Spell Duels (SD) is really cinematic. Lightning clashing with lightning in mid air... pretty much anything clashing with anything like Harry Potter or Anime attack rays. It's quite arbitrary or improvisational.
The question was raised, then, about spell-like effects. A Dragon or Dragonborn's breath weapon, for example... has an effect, in the case of the red dragon type, like the Burning Hands spell.
Perhaps you can see the direction this heads if you imagine a physical effect spell being reacted to by that sort of effect... mechanically it seems like it could be considered an opposed roll like a SD.
If such a thing were to be allowed, MANY spells could act as a defensive measure (edit: almost the same as a Shield spell). You could even extend these spells to resist or oppose other kinds of non-spell attacks.
Most DMs or rules designers would simply say "that's not how the rules work", and not consider it further.
Do not do so is to run up against the question of how viable such an expanded view on SD mechanics while coinciding with the Shield spell would be, especially for balance... and then... why wouldn't physical attacks have opportunity for opposed rolls also?
Any way to do it without changing all DC20 attack mechanics into games where combat is done by opposed rolls?
Interesting observations and it is definitely a deep topic. I would probably handle this on a case by case basis.
@@RollWithUsDMs I'm a fan of the effectiveness of the reacting combatant's "Attack Duel" being arbitrated according to how strong the defending effort is... a torch being almost totally ridiculously weak against a Ray of Frost, for example... (and a really poor or desperate choice for how to use an Action Point), where maybe a brazier full of oil might not be so weak, or a white Dragonborn's breath weapon against Burning Hands perhaps
@@RollWithUsDMs Hmm... I think I've based my analysis on some assumptions about what is and isn't easy to do with Reactions in this system. Namely that Reactions don't happen without specific triggers... Ao Opportunity for martials and Spell Duel for spellcasters, or Held Actions.
I'm basically trying to make DC20 follow the rules of a different game 😅
I think shield in dc20 wins solely on the fact you can use it to protect someone else.
That alone makes it so cool.
Also it's just as useful as the others.
Very good summary and all good points!
The problem with the Pathfinder version is somebody ruined it for everyone. Somebody probably blocked everything, and in response they gave a 10 minute timeout.
Very likely true. It is still a good spell within PF2e, but it just doesnt stack up when you take that cool down into effect.
Also, while every +1 matters in PF2e, the +5 in DC 20, in a system where every 5 over matters, this is way more impactful.
Thank you for your thoughts!
@@RollWithUsDMs Yeah, shield in DC20 has way less downside than 5e/pathfinder.
Regardless of the version, it feels bad when you waste actions and the roll was very low and missed anyway, though at least with 5e and with DC20 if you pay the enhancement then you get it for the round, and if not, well then it probably didn't cost mana (so all you lose in the worst case is an action in DC20).
Pathfinder it feels so bad since actions are so valuable, and the +1 means that it is so unlikely to make a difference between a hit and a miss (though the +10 crit rules mean that it can make a difference even in big hits). Attacks that missed anyway feel bad in PF2e.
As far as over-AC hits, the 5e shield spell either feels bad or is broken, depending on if the DM rolls attacks publicly and lets you shield after the roll or not. if as-written, the spell feels bad since it does nothing; at least in PF you can shield block a good amount of damage, and in DC 20 you are guaranteed to save at least 1 damage.
Very good insight! Thank you for taking the time to write this reply!
Awesome. 🙂👍🏻
Thank you for engaging with the comment section!
I think the current version of Shield in DC20 needs some nerfing!
Thank you for your comment!
It is very strong, but it is similar to the parry maneuver of martial characters. The extra power over parry is its boost to MD and the MP enhancements.
Maybe it will get tweaked in the spell overhaul.
@@RollWithUsDMs I think it’s also that with extra mana it can be cast at range. Right now in sessions it feels like mana is pretty plentiful. But there is the mana spend limit that helps keep that in check.
I have run a lot of DC20 over the last 3 months. 6 mana points vs 2 spell slots sounds like a lot, but it goes fast, especially if you use the MP for other class features.
The mana spend limit is a good rule. It also opens up a more flexible “upcasting” of spells when you reach the higher levels.
If you watch our live play “Menace Under Otari” DC20 conversion, you will see how strong and useful the parry maneuver is, especially when you can parry for an ally.
Being able to essentially parry at range is very good, and probably fair for 1 MP. Now that the cleric has a “shortsword of Shielding” which has given her the shield spell, I guess I will find out the power of it when I run part 2 of the adventure.
@@RollWithUsDMs caught a little of it, great stuff! I’ve been on the receiving end of parry’s and heroic parry’s and raised shields and side steps and shield spells and all sorts of defensive reactions which mostly stack so I’m well familiar with their power!
It sounds like you have run the game? If so, I am happy to have met another DC20 DM!