What are the performance differences between polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base oils and con..
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- Опубліковано 18 січ 2021
- Polyalphaolefin (PAO) Group IV lubricants are by far the most common of all the synthetic base oils. There are many benefits over Group I, II, and III conventional mineral oils, so in this video we try to explore how these benefits manifest from the differences in manufacturing processes.
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Magnific explanation great tutorial . Greetings from Spain
Thank you! Cheers!
Best videos on lubrication
Thanks so much! Always great to hear feedback. Let us know if there are any particular topics that would be helpful - hopefully we're already in the process of making a video on the topic, but if not will put it on the list.
Very cool . Thank you for your knowledge 💪🏽
I've used penrite 10 tenths which is poa ester and thought it was excellent. Definitely cleans varnish over time and held up in a 700hp engine. I'm sticking to shells GTL tech in my daily though, for the value GTL is excellent
From memory the Ten Tenths range is a combined PAO / POE Ester. My personal opinion is that Penrith goes a little overboard with the additives - 2200 ppm antiwear in a racing engine is overkill and too much antiwear contributes to friction. But it will definitely protect the engine! You're right, GTL products definitely give a really good price/performance ratio.
This IS helpful.
Would love a videos of IR spectra interpetration in order to decipher base oils
Oh that would be good. Let me see if I can put something together.
thank you!
How do you see the problem of PAO low solubility in comperision with short distance driving and there for high gas input in the oil. Does most PAO oils work beter or less good agains this problem?...
I’ve heard that PAOs don’t “stick” very well on the engine surfaces, is this also a downside of the dilution capability and is this problem solved with the combination with ester? My engine just got a PAO Based Oil but sometimes it stands still for weeks and I hope the cold starts aren’t that stressful for the material.
Great content, thanks for your work!
No one does 100% PAO formulation. PAO is really bad at dissolving additives. All formulators will add ester in the mix to help solubilise the additives.
The Ester helps with the "stick". And if you are using latest specifications, high chance your oil has Moly inside which in conjunction with ZDDP form a sacrificial layer on your engine.
TLDR, no need to worry if you are using reputable oil.
Are PAO base oils bad for gaskets ?
BimmerN53
Would the lower solubility in PAOs be a plus in a fuel dilution case?
No
how does GTL conpare to pao performance? i remember when pennzoil platinum 5w30 first came out it was GTL and boasted 9.1 noack volatility ratings and 171 viscosity index.
the product doesnt seem to score as high as it used to so suspect basestocks may have changed but thats a different subject.
Good question - GTL is often marketed as "Group III+". It does have properties which are better than a lot of Group III oils in the market, but it will always fall short of cPAO and mPAO base oils due to impurities in the gas stream which can never be completely removed. The other limitation is the range of viscosities - GTLs are generally only available on the low end of the viscosity range, so its difficult to make things like gear oils where you need a thick lubricant film. GTL is a Shell technology, but they sell on the open market to other lube suppliers, so there may well be a lot of engine oils that are blended in part with GTL.
now 9.1 noak and 171 visco index is average imo
How do we find out what base oils our motor oils are made of? Normal oil samples dont say what it is, and neither does it say on the back of the bottle
Good question - it's not something that the manufacturers typically disclose. One way to find a small amount of information is to go to the SDS. "Decene" will sometimes be listed in a % quantity - that's a weak proxy for the PAO content. Otherwise the manufacturers tend to sell the product based on the performance rather than the components.
In the USA, most PAO based oils will say PAO in the fine print on the back near the API specifications. Part of this is because high tier group 4 PAO brands want to stay separate from the group 3 imposters. There was a controversial legal challenge some years ago that resulted in group 3 oils being allowed to legally be labeled and marketed as "synthetic". So one can infer group 3 from "syn-XXX" or "synthetic" combined with a total lack of the term PAO. And most multi-grade mineral oils are group 2 as group 1 tends to be only suited to single viscosity grade products without excess modifiers. And you can combine this with TDS/PDS info like VI and pour point to get more confidence.
Combine this with the available refining capacity, there are very few remaining refineries setup for significant group one output, the production cost is slightly lower but not enough to offset the lower profit margin. Most new lube oil refineries in the recent 20 years are built for group 3 and group 2 in the 20-30 years before that. (group 3 only started production in the late 1980s)
I have also heard the argument that a finished lubricant can no longer be usefully classified by the base-oil group because of blending and additives and each should just be taken on the basis of standard industry properties tests, like VI, pour point, wear protection, TBN, evaporation on heating, shear stability, etc
What do you think about vehicle engine oil that claim to be 100% or fully synthetic but with more than 75% hydrotreated mentioned in it's MSDS. I think most engine oil are like that now. Do they deserve to be called fully synthetic?
Not a big fan. I actually did a separate video on the topic! ua-cam.com/video/zpGJP0VmD-Q/v-deo.html
@@LubricationExplained ok. in here, some group II engine oil are even more expensive than PAO engine oil.
good thing that "fully synthetic" is a protected term in my country:
You can only proclaim an oil as fully synthetic if it is based on Group 4 and Group 5 base oils and I think there is a pretty high requirement of the contents here because all fully synthetic oils sold here are actually all ~80 - 100% fully synthetic.
@@alouisschafer7212 German? not anymore.
Schaeffer 9000 full synthetic 5W-40 = 30-60% hydrotreated, 10-21% decene / PAO
Liqui Moly Molygen New Generation SAE 5W-30 Fully Synthetic = 10-20 solvent refined (group 1), >60 hydrotreated (group 2)
@@kupasotomotif since when is the brand Schaeffer german? This brand does not exist here...
The Molygen? That oil isn't meant for the european market I cant buy it here and Liqui Moly doesn't list it on their german distribution network.
I think they had it in Poland for some time trough an importer but no idea if that source is still around.
They do have one oil that differs from the standard oils and that's a 10w40 with solid MoS2 powder mixed into it as an additional surface friction modifier. Supposedly its a great oil for older worn engines.
But ironically nobody outside europe has ever heard of that oil because they dont sell that one overseas.
Can you briefly tell me what the difference is between PAO and ESTER oil?
Is there a difference between the term PAO and ESTER ???
Great question - they're entirely different molecules. I'd recommend maybe watching this video on esters first: ua-cam.com/video/sBZWF-QMQMI/v-deo.html
@@LubricationExplained Perfect. I understand .
I came to the conclusion that the best oils are those with a PAO base and the addition of ESTER.
I do a job closely related to motorcycling and I need to know all these things.
Thanks for the shows you make. we didn't learn this in school.
Poly Alpha olefin and base oil use formula
I noticed that when PAOs were the hot new thing, super high VI was common like 5w-50, but now there are many PAOs sold with conventional style narrow spreads like 10w-30 and the wide spreads have become less common. Is this just marketing to match car owners' manuals or some actual chemistry advantage? I thought a PAO would be somewhat better than 10w-30 even without VI improvers.
Good question. So if you take a look at PDS for SpectraSyn 8 (that's a typical cPAO for use in engine oils), the viscosity index is 139. Compare that with Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and the VI I calculate for that product is 142. So the two aren't particularly far off.
You can get PAOs with higher VIs for sure, particularly with mPAOs, but I guess I'm just showing it is possible that a 10W-30 could be a full PAO.
www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/chemicals/webapi/dps/v1/datasheets/150000000353/0/en
www.mobil.com/en-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/na-xx-mobil-1-high-mileage-oils
I think they are blending it with group 3. If they only put pao, the cost would be very expensive.
@@semihkoc326 No such thing as pure pao anyway, its bad for rubber seals. It needs at least some ester in it to counteract the shrinkage of rubber.
Probably blending in Group 5 Esters and I guess yeah it would make sense for the manufacturer to aim for the most commonly used viscosity grades.
vegetable oil plis.
i heard that PAO oils can cause shrinkage of the oil seals is it true though?
Yes! Although a caveat on that - PAO engine oils generally have some ester in them to offset the seal shrink. Here's a video explaining it in more detail: ua-cam.com/video/ZViRtXJXAwU/v-deo.html
@@LubricationExplained thanks ill go check the link now
What chemicals can be added to PAO to increase solubility? I understand that this is related to the aniline point.
Hi! Generally the solubility is increased through the use of a co-base stock. With PAO finished lubricants it’s really common to see synthetic esters or occasionally alkylated naphthalene used.
@@LubricationExplained There are no esters and AN for this oil: www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/35305-meguin-megol-super-leichtlauf-5w-40-%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B5/
Not here either: www.oilclub.pl/index.php?threads/aral-super-tronic-0w-40-ft-ir.1805/
@@poziom1989 Interesting - haven't seen those products before but if the IR spectra are correct then yes, they don't appear to have used a co-base. Even a PAO will have a (small) level of solubility, so maybe the makers of those products have been able to include the additive pack without the need for a co-base. The potential risk that might be present is one of deposit control. Oxidation byproducts tend to be very polar, so if the base oil is already saturated then deposits will readily fall out of solution and could form sludge or varnish quite quickly.
@@LubricationExplained I am writing from another account. In my opinion, this is the right mix of AOs and dispersants. Here comes the question of the aniline point. There is just another component that increases the solubility etc. I just don't know what.
How to identify group 3 and group 4 in engine oil because Group 3 specs and group 4 are lapping some where
If you see ester blend or similar stuff anywhere, most likely it is a PAO formulation. The only base oil that require ester to help solubilise additives is PAO.
Yup, yup, yup :) PAO's good for late model engines, 0W-20 or 0W-16/ Commercial vehicles/ Turbo engines & Jet engines?
For earlier piston engines, PAO's might want to slip past piston rings, a bit too freely?
I had wondered why - If say, 5 or 10W - 30 oils would have the similar, viscometric properties, per SAE? - Glll or lV?
Then I figured that SAE viscosity is measured in lab, under low speed & load conditions?
These numbers become kinda inaccurate? Under engine speed & load?
Then, a G lV oil would want to get past the piston & burn? A bit faster than a G lll oil? With the same, lab measured SAE?
All you need to counter that in old engines is higher weights. We run group V base amsoil zrod (either 20w-50 or 10w-30) in all kinds of old engines and have no consumption issues even with some engines (albeit very well maintained ones) not having been opened for major maintenance since the 50s/60s. (The oldest one we have with an uncracked engine is an old slant 6 dodge from the 50s). They get pretty decent Mike's being driven across the country to car shows quite often. That slant 6 dodge usually goes 10k a year because it's a favorite, only thing that has ever been changed on it outside maintenance/wear items like brakes, spark plugs and tires is that it's been repainted.
@@Prestiged_peck Thankyou. I did think that & tried a 10W-40, full synthetic, in a 2003 Camry, supposed to use 10W-30, new. In this case, there was no change in oil cons ~ 1 L (Qt) per 1000 miles (1600 km).
Seems, this isn't too bad? Now trying "cocktail" 10W-40 + 15W-40 :) Might eventually work up to 20W-50 :)
Not sure about G V POE though, re: Oil seals. This is not a race engine :)
@@lesliedsouza4077 try some of that 5w-50 rather than hitting 20w-50, itll be even thicker when hot and won't starve it when cold. But try flushing next change. Heard recently from a Toyota master tech that they have a tendency to get sludge built up even with high quality oils in the oil control ring, which makes the oil control ring stop doing its job as well, though you may be to the point of cylinder wall damage in which case nothing's really gonna stop it. Also an 03 camry ain't old. When I say old I mean anything made before 1990, and a few early 90s cars
Wow! A lot to unpack in that question. First up - jet engines generally operate on Synthetic Ester based lubricants rather than PAOs. The gas turbines on aircraft tend to run hotter than industrial turbines and have much smaller oil reservoirs because weight = cost; esters have the advantage in that regard. Industrial turbines used to run on GpI oils but have now moved on to GpII/III (we just covered this in the turbine varnish video).
Comparing SAE grades, you're correct - a mineral 5W-30 and synthetic 5W-30 will broadly have the same viscometrics. Where there is an observable difference is in the shear stability and HTHS, because the mineral oil will require more VI improvers.
VI improvers are long polymers that can literally be broken down by the shear forces in places like the piston rings and oil pumps. When they break they contribute less and less to bulk viscosity, so a 5W-30 might start to behave like a 5W-25 or 5W-20. Synthetics generally don't have this issue because the PAO has a much higher starting VI, avoiding the need for additives.
The HTHS viscosity test is an attempt to better replicate the actual conditions of the engine - it's run at a higher temperature (150degC) and simulates sliding speeds you would see in the piston rings. Under these conditions, VI improvers are less effective - it's mostly the base oil that governs performance, so again the PAO would have the edge.
Hope that helps!
@@Prestiged_peck Yup, yup, yup :) I do a lab oil sample, then flush, every oil change ~ 7500km = 4688 mi.
Lab report comes back ok for now, 232,500km ~ 145,000 mi. Fe & Pb, single digits. Plenty additives remain.
Zero soot. Engine compression now ~ 170 psi (+/_ a bit) on all 4 - Not gd as new, but within spec?
Thicker oil doesn't help the oil rings problem - 'Cos it's easier to go up than drain? :)
Also, Toyota VVTi seems to prefer thinner oil - tho' the oil rings don't? :)
Manual says 5W-30 to 20W-50 ok - per temp range chart.
sooooooooo..................what you're saying is buy amsoil?
👍👍
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The only reason PAOs exist is because 1960s mineral oils don't work at 30,000 feet. The cold flow properties of PAO are brilliant when the temperature outside your cockpit is -50°C but for us mere mortals that drive cars at sea level, in countries with temperate climates, PAOs are something of a waste of money. You need to realise that PAO base stock typically costs about 4 - 5 times that of a bog standard mineral oil. They are also incredibly 'un-green'. Yes you can still buy PAO-based synthetics (Amsoil, Ravenol, etc) but over the last 20 years, the big boys have been quietly euthanising them as fast as they can.
They’re still pretty prevalent in the industrial sector. Plenty of PAO gear, hydraulic, compressor and turbine oils. But yes, in engine oils they are a dying breed.
@@LubricationExplained A dying breed because Group III base stocks are being used in “synthetic” oil offerings (at a lower price) instead of more expensive PAOs? LE, your must be knee-deep in the lubricant industry in order to discuss so many related topics. So, is the lack of consumer demand causing the extinction of motor oil PAOs?
@@watercooled8105 Great question - it's likely a combination of factors that warrants a stand alone video. TL;DR - additive technology, base oil tech, and blending methods have all come a long way which means you don't need to use as much PAO to achieve the same level of performance. For example, just within the base oil market we have recently seen the rise of both GTL GpIII base oils, as well as mPAO GpIV, both of which offer performance benefits over standard GpIII and GpIV base oils respectively. But great idea for another video!
@@watercooled8105 In my experience, the three most important parameters in formulating any commercial engine oil are a) cost, b) cost & c) cost! This applies as much to the most expensive top-tier factory fill oils as it does to the lowliest SG/CD 20W50 mineral. The decline of full PAO/ester oils is driven by simple economics.
BTW, you only need one look at the mind bogglingly complex manufacturing processes required to suss out that modern Group III oils are every bit as 'synthetic' as PAO.
@@MrSensible2 I totally agree with you, and thank you for bringing that point (market force) to bear, but then…I can go to a store and buy cellophane wrapped, abominations labeled chocolate chip cookies or visit a family bakery and purchase a fresh, delectable, rich chocolate chip cookie with incredible flavor. Both are chocolate chip cookies. Both built on cost, but far different processes and ingredients. I want (and I’m willing to pay for) the bakery cookie, I just have a desire to know and understand it’s ingredients and the process. I currently run a PAO oil in my vehicles and unscientifically, feel a noticeable difference with the smooth operation and reduction in oil consumption….what’s taking place?
posco sellJuel Oram