580 RSW A Red Label Yamaha Guitar Repair - Part 2 Neck Removal
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2022
- You will see one of the toughest neck removals that I have ever dealt with. Hope you enjoy my suffering. LOL
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This confirms what I've read on various forums about the difficulty of removing the necks off these old Yamahas. lol
nice work! I've reset necks on a lot of yamaha guitars and more than a few have been epoxy glue used on the dove tail joint and was a bear to get apart!
Jerry, I agree those older Yamahas are a real bear to do a neck reset on. I have done a few over the years and the only advice I have to offer is to use a hotter drier steam. I had much better luck after I tried that. I have, since, gone to the electric heating style that Ted Woodford and others use now but have not reset a Yamaha with that style heating element yet. You had the right idea lowering your steam source. What I figured out was to put the steam source on the floor and run my tubing up as close to the ceiling as I could get then back down to my work table. That got my steam much hotter and drier. I had a lot better luck with that setup. The only other tip I have for future Yamahas is to remove the dot marker to drill your hole and you will hit the cavity every time. Keep up the good work I really enjoy your videos.
For inexpensive guitars, Yamahas are very nice.
I've had a couple and always got compliments on their sound.
(from guys with better guitars)
Jerry I just want to thank you so much for putting the hard stuff on here for us all to see. It's so comforting to know that an expert experienced person can have bad days and that you just have to plow through. You're a great example for everyone and I for one am so grateful. thank you thank you.
Just perfect - I love that you show the nightmare and your frustrations and thinking rather than making a video of an easy job. Worth its weight in educational gold. Thanks so much for posting.
So glad part 2 came out thank you so much
Simply WOW, what a tough neck removal, good work Jerry
Im a pro guitar tech in spain.
I want to thank you for your video.
It really helped me to reset a 70s fg130 made in japan with success.
I know it wasnt the cleanest work (i get into worse mess more times than you (and that makes me give you more thanks because you posted it )
Really really helpfull
pro guitar tech needs to watch this clown,....thats funny.
@@paulblackley3546 I would LOVE to see YOUR video on how to do this.
Man vs. Glue, an epic battle! This reminds me that I once worked 3 hours or so to pull a bicycle handlebar holder out of the fork, both were welded by corrosion (alloy and iron with water can do this). I used every method, pulling with a strap with around 2 tons, chemicals / rust solvent, heat. It was so frustrating, but I refused to give up, as you did! At least it worked with a 1 kg hammer and brute force on a stone with a hole in it. And the funny thing: If you use assembly paste, a white grease, you never have this welding/corrosion problem, and you don't need much force to fix the parts properly. Some solutions are so simple, like using the right glue or assembly paste on your bike. I use assembly paste now ALWAYS.
You have the patience of a saint. If it was me doing this, the neck would have been off in half the time, just because I would've smashed the guitar out of frustration.
I'm glad you brought this video up, as I have a 12 string guitar that needs a neck set, badly, and have come up with the same issues as seen here, but I was able to finally remove the whole neck, after cutting fret board like you did. Thanks for bringing this video up.
I have an old Martin D 28 I have to do this to and I'm glad I was able to learn a lot from this video...... MY old Martin looks like it had been through a war zone and I don't want to damage it further.... Thanks for posting this....
legend! you kept at it til it was done. Then you put it up for everyone to see. Nothing to be ashamed of here
Good work
The neck removal is always impressive to me. Your craft is remarkable. 👌🎶🎶🎶
Tough match! Good work still. Thanks for sharing.
I do appreciate your video.... you're pretty much the only one. Thanks.
I still own my first guitar, a Yamaha FG 180 Red Label. I played it exclusively from 1973 to 1982. I recently had it set up, added a new saddle and nut, and plays like a dream.
Jerry, that video made tired just watching...what a pain that was. I had never seen a dowel coming up into the neck like that. Thanks for all you have done for me. That '74 Martin is sounding great!
nice work, a lesson in patience and persistence.👍🏼
Jerry, you are infinitely more patient than me. I’m very new to actually working on guitars instead of just playing them. Anything I suggest to do will probably be moronic, but I recently did a lot of work on a friend’s Yamaha guitar and I used a Bridge Doctor to address the belly bulge after I removed and replaced the bridge. The result was pretty good. The action became quite acceptable and she is thrilled with being able to play her guitar again. I have since used one on one of my lower end acoustics and the result once again was very good. I’m not set up to remove a neck, and I know my approach would not be best in a lot of situations, but it worked good for an old guy who is just doing free work on friends guitars and his own. Love watching and learning from your many years of expertise. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and craftsmanship.
The knowledge of a journeyman is very valuable to me. I enjoy your videos because you are honest and share your misses as well as your hits, but it always comes out good in the end. Thanks for sharing! BTW I have heard that Yamaha used epoxy for glue in the mid/late 70's.
This is an excellent viseo thank you Jerry so much experience and knowledge and a pleasure to watch, but my God that neck is just not wanting to move at all! I suppose its a testament to how well they were buil! I recently bought one of these guitars off a man in England.
A 1972 FG 160, he couldnt play it amymore and wanted it to go to a good home. The action was fairly high so i had to sand down the bridge and saddle to what you had replaced
in the first video to get the action down to around 2.5 to 3mm at the twelfth fret, its as low as I could go without a neck reset. These guitars sound fantastic, I'm from Ireland and
play local sessions in pubs here, Ive seen Martins, Taylors, epiphone Masterbilts etc and it cuts through them all, i think it sounds better. I would have loved to have done a neck reset
but watching this it would be way beyond me, but I might try on another some day. Can anyone answer me on if you dont have that heating rig what could you use instead? Or can
you buy a special heating device to remove a bridge or neck? anyone?
Wow you suffered with that neck, seen you do many neck resets ,fortunately you did not get hurt that could have been really bad ,what a job
I'm fighting a Luna neck ,that's had the rest of the guitar cut off around the neck joint of the body ,so trying to save the neck ,this is a good idea ,since I'm between a rock ,and hard a place with it ! Great video, thanks
This was a great learning experience for this rookie. Thx Jerry!
One good thing about dry heat is that you don’t have to hit the pocket. If it’s one of those dovetails that’s a little shy of the 15th fret but you don’t know where it is you can just put the holes where you normally would(under 15th fret). The heat will go through that little bit of wood and do what it needs to do. Steam on the other hand won’t go through the wood. If you’re not in the pocket it’s just gonna come right back out of the hole.
Great content, thanks.
Jerry, you may have missed the pocket, when drilling, but that is a dang small pocket.
It Really demonstrates the removal of the fretboard extension as a good option.
Great work and interesting idea to take the fretboard end off. I’ve done a few neck re sets but never a Yamaha and after watching this if ine comes my way I’m tempted to just say no…
Hi Jerry;
Glad your safe, (no burns). I bet your hands are hurting. I know mine would be with all that trying to wiggle that neck loose. In the end you got the main part out with very little damage. The heal may still prove to be a real bear. Good luck with it.
Twoofrd uses dual electrodes to heat up the wood, and thus the glue. Steam actually expands the wood while it's heating up the wood to soften the glue. He is an exceptional craftsman. It's worth a view.
Whatever works well for a particular luthier is correct for that person. That makes sense to me.
Here is a quote from the Yamaha Vintage Guitar board, "A vintage Yamaha is no way to learn how to do neck resets. They can be brutally hard to get apart." The comments indicated that Yamaha mixes their own version of hide glue, and uses a lot of it. Seems true to me.
Yes, that method seems to work well for him.
I believe Yamaha uses fish glue.
It works like hide glue but is stronger.
@@zapa1pnt Actually, they are about the same when holding wood together. Fish glue can bind some non-porous stuff, like inlays, that hide and PVA can't. Fish glue is also used at room temperature, and has a pretty long working time.
For wood to wood, I prefer a good PVA glue.
Ted is a master of his craft and a top class repair person and puts many others to shame.
@@stu-j I love his mini-history lessons!
There are a lot of good solid top 70s/80s/90s guitars made in Japan/Korea that need neck resets and it's almost impossible to remove/replace the necks. The glue used is strong and not much bothered by heat (gummy at best) - often the joint type is unknown and could be dowels - truss rod position makes using a saw impossible. There are other options to be considered. The bridge height can be greatly reduced and a much thicker bridge plate installed (these guitars often have ply bridge plates). Or, the fretboard can be removed and replaced with a new tapered fretboard (easier not to bother with binding). Straight edges can be set up to use a router to mill a new surface onto the existing fretboard to glue a new fretboard onto or re-radius re-fret the existing fretboard.
I keep finding 50 year old Yamana FGs in near perfect cosmetic and structural condition, finish, everything, BUT....for the necks. All have been assured playable via bridge and saddle adjustments, and truss rod tweaking, but the several luthiers I go to in my city shake their heads at my persistence with these guitars. I love 'em, and I just can't see letting all that old wood goodness go to waste. They sound SO good. I DID finally just buy a new FG-830, and gotta say, I love it too.
My friend has a red label yamaha acoustic and he's been offered big money for it many times. It's a beautiful guitar.
I stopped trying to remove Japanese necks with heat or steam. I saw them off and convert them to bolt on.
Yeah. I've heard they use some kinda epoxy glue
That is exactly what my luthier did for my Red Label FG-30 LTD. Unless you look for the bolt, there is no visual signs of a neck reset having been done.
Same here! No surprises that way, and they sound great.
some I know that you are going to make my dream come true fix my guitar just the way I want with God willing
That was torture! Take a rest buddy.
As an amateur violin luthier I have to say that guitar lutherie is pretty brutal stuff. Violin makers use animal glue usually called hide glue that comes as pellets that melt into hot water and the glue is applied hot. The "hide glue" sold in liquid form is NOT the same stuff and is going to be harder to deal with. Further in violin lutherie, the neck and fingerboard are regarded as ultimately expendible. You replace a broken neck with a new one and you do a scroll graft to fit the scroll (headstock) to the new neck. A scroll graft is a skilled and lengthy procedure of course but for a good violin it is the accepted solution and if done correctly, the value of the instrument is not affected. Violin owners dont give a hoot about the neck or fingerboad but clearly guitar owners do so it is a different ballgame. One thing I would expect to be required is the use a sharp blade to release the joint at the button where the neck joins the back plate otherwise you risk breaking it though in this case the neck broke before it got close to releasing.
You have my sympathy since if you come up against 'difficult' glue and a joint designed not to come apart, you are up s*** creek without a paddle! Good luck!
The fretboard is part of the structure of the guitar and half of what connects the neck to the guitar. Cutting it at the 14th fret is not good. If you're going to cut it, cut it at the 10th fret. Then regluing the fretboard back on restores the structural rigidity, since there is an area of 4 frets firmly connecting the fretboard to the neck. Another problem with exposing the whole neck joint is you don't build any steam pressure, which can help force the steam deeper into the joint as you wiggle.
I'm sticking with the video ! Because where he cuts it is perfect, that's really just an extension of the fretboard anyway ,hence removing just the glue bond under it could be almost fatal to the straightness of the fretboard ! So you run the risk anyway ,but right here you could save it easier ,in my opinion!
Good old Jerry working his magic.
What a job! I have an old Yamaha fg110, and it could probably use a neck reset, but the nearest luthier is 180 miles away from me! So, I’m going to have to wait. I am surprised that they use a dowel inside the joint.
The legend of epoxy in Yamaha?
Take a break Jerry, you deserve it after that fight!
My dad has a Yamaha acoustic guitar from the 1970's, that my mom bought it for his birthday. Fifty years later (now), and of course it needs a neck reset. I'm going to attempt doing it myself for him, I've been watching your videos for several years now, and I think I can do it. I'm sure that it will be a challenge, but I have the tools to and time, so why not? It's totally unplayable, so I can't really mess it up if I take my time and do what you did with this Yamaha guitar. Hopefully you got it out and we'll see it on the next one. I'm very glad that you weren't burned by the tea kettle, real invisible stem will cause third degree burns. Fortunately, you were out of the way when it blew.
Make sure you check the belly condition First.
I didn't and did the reset. Then I noticed the belly and fixed that.
Now the neck angle is too high and so is the saddle.
@@zapa1pnt thanks for the heads up, I check it out and fix the belly bulge first (it's got a significant belly bulge). I'm glad you pointed out that, it could save me a lot of misery!
Good luck, Wade. You must be a Sandlapper.
@@zapa1pnt OOF! I'll bet you were ready to KILL when you discovered that.
@@truthray2885: No, I was too exhausted with the whole thing.
It plays ok, but I do intend to reset the neck...... again.
Have you ever used steam and a clamped straight edge on frett board to do what is referred to as a steam neck reset. This method is up on you tube.
Japanese craftsmanship 👍
I'm exhausted just watching that! I have an FG-160 to my left, and an FG-160-1 to my right, and we were ALL huddled together in the dark, under a blanket, cringing and shuddering about what might come next! No offense to you - seriously, but that was like a slasher flick to my fiddles! This video should be rated "XXX-FG-180". I have a Nippon Gakki FG-180 in the other room, in perfect condition but yes, a little "necky", and I'd NEVER let it watch this, even with adult supervision!
I can feel your frustration 😜
Some of these guitars have the complete joint and all the surfaces glued ! Not just the dovetail joint. They are an absolute bear to get apart.
I did (attempted) a neck reset on a 70's Guild jumbo. I couldn't even get the f'board extension loose. They'd used epoxy from time to time. I wound up giving the guitar back to the guy.
Older Guilds are legendary/notorious that way.
Thank God 🙏
As I type this, by Guild 12 string from the 70's is in the shop for a $500 neck reset. After watching this, I'm glad I didn't try it myself.
After repairing violin family instruments for 24 years, I know there are hide glues that have ingredients that help it be more waterproof and stronger. I think there is one of those in this neck mortice. Titebond gets milky and absorbs water and comes loose. Not good for violin necks because it'll creep and the neck angle will fall where hide glue stays put. I've seen this augmented hide glue in Chinese built violin family instruments. I'm watching this to learn how to do the neck on my own Oscar Schmidt Grand Concert Sovereign. Thanks for taking this one on the chin for me.
I use a marker to put a spot on the bass end of the frets I remove. Helps with the reinstallation :- ]
Yamaha don't play when they fit a neck. Nice to see good progress
you cut the frett board brilliant idea
It seems like a deeper drilled hole and a longer steam nozzle might of helped get the lower half of the heel loose. That’s looks really hard to do.
Suggestion: Add a pressure relief valve to your kettle .... just a small metal tube with a weighted top ... similar to what is on a pressure cooker.
Steam _ Jazz because it moves a Coltrane :-) Seriously - well done but especially glad you didn't get hurt.
Would it have been possible to measure the distance beneath the top to the dovetail - saving the drillling step if the alignment is off; or is the neck block thickness too variable? Also, is it possible the finish on the neck joint is holding the piece - could it be scored with an exacto knife?
it boggles my mind a little bit that guitars are built in such a way that a neck reset is often very complicated, yet every guitar needs it every once in a while...
Would glueing a shim to that current break work? Like those that stewmac sells for strat necks.
Vintage yamaha headstock pocket is slightly different position to expected.
Search yamaha vintage Fg and you will find a great resource for vintage yamaha including correct location of neck pockets.
A little bit of alcohol dripped into the joint can crystallize the hide glue and it will break loose easier
Great video thanks for sharing. I have a question!! Shoudient the different instrument factories have a remedy or the best way to remove the neck from each instrument? Why don't they post them somewhere? Stay well & safe. I hope everyone has a Blessed Safe 4th of July.
Would aluminum tape around the fretboard or bridge protect the finish from heat?
Ted Woodfor uses a new heat system with 2 wands to remove necks and it seems to work very well. You might check his youtube videos for that.
Ted Woodford twoodford
I just flush cut off the neck, there is a fluted dowel set vertically at the body joint, half on the neck side and half on the body side. Just below the fingerboard, there is the anchor for the truss rod. The saw stopped there but enough was cut to be able to break free leaving some dovetail wood still on the neck. I chiseled that off and glued those small pieces back to the dovetail on the body.
Now I can sand the bottom of the neck a little and glue the neck back on at a slight back angle using a gap filling glue. I only have about 15 minutes work invested so far.
In my opinion, these old Yamaha's are almost not worth the effort to even to do a kamikaze neck reset, much less a steam removal, which is nearly impossible anyway, but that is just my opinion, some people are crazy attached to their babies and will pay for it anyway.
would removal of endcap (is there one?) would disclose there is a dowel pinning it?
What little I’ve worked with hide glue was not encouraging, it stinks and long open times. I’m a titebond believer
I wonder if flipping it upside down and tapping the flat part where the neck meets the body with a plastic hammer would have helped instead of trying to wiggle the whole neck
Let’s be honest. The accepted method for most professionals is to remove the 15th fret, use either heat sticks or steam to release the glue, and then remove the neck. Twoodfrd is a well respected repair man/luthier who uses that method with great success. Chopping thru the fingerboard, albeit in a way in which you can hide it well, is not ideal.
lol ok
@@Daniel_cheems hehe. 👌
be honest with yourself and admit that you know fuck all about resetting necks on yamahas twoodford does and that is why he doesn't touch them
Most repairs are not Yamahas. Lots of comments here and everywhere about how they are 'different'. It looks like the heater stick method would not have worked in this case, because of that dowel. And finding the right spot would still be a challenge. I've seen Ted do the 'Kung-Fu' neck reset technique when faced with something like this (cutting the neck off entirely and bolting it back on). I doubt he would have spent 2 hours on this before he decided to go brute force.
I had an old red label 12 string to practice steaming off a neck.. No idea what glue they were using back then but needless to say It was unsuccessful..
Makes you wonder as to when a guitar becomes a wall hanger or fire wood
Jerry, you are the professional Luthier and know what you're doing, the rest of us should just keep our stupid comments and ill advice to our selves.
Back in the 1980s I was given a red label FG 180 that was missing it's head, after an accident at a wild party. This was one of my first attemps at major guitar repair and turned into a nightmare, just like this one. Boy oh boy, did I get my feet wet on that one. I didn't know about the special neck attachment used by Yamaha at the time, thought it would be a straight dovetail job. But eventually got the neck off and reset at the right angle. Made a new head from scratch and voila, had a great sounding guitar - still have it to this day 😎.
Hope it's in good shape. Those red labels are worth some money.
@@zapa1pnt Yes, still in great shape. Some people think these were crap guitars, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Bert Janch and other top performers of the day, preferred Yamahas over Gibsons and Martins. Well build, lightweight, very rugged, easy to play and consistently great sounding. Ideal for travelling musicians. The downside was the neck angle problem shown in this video and many techs struggled to fix it back then.
Did that FG 180 have a dowel in the neck?
I can take it appart. I'll just use a baseball bat and by golly, it will come appart.... in a million pieces LOL You are a magician Jerry.
Too much risk of delamination of sides top and back in this method, which would destroy the guitar.
Safer an quicker to cut a wedge out through heel, then glue and dowel.
Done many, no failures. Love these guitars. S
Steve, if you have a channel here, you should do a video of that. I'd love to see it. No luthiers in my area want to even touch an old Yamaha neck reset.
I spoke with one luthier who said he has had to router out the neck block or dovetail......
I had a guitar that the neck failed on and it broke right there. I was new to repairs and had to reset the neck twice due to glue slippage and there was no dovetail. It is a cheap guitar. it went back together with a little hump there but I don’t play up there anyway.
Did you ever think of using a long syringe instead of that ball filling attachment? There are some that don't have sharp tips for glue ?
glad that was a yamaha 180 and not a d28
steam pin seems kinda short need to get steam further down in the joint
At what point did you score the finish on the heel to side joint, and then use that palette knife to separate the heel from the body?
With the heel glued and finished to the body it isn't gonna let go without a heartbreaking struggle.
I know some of the older “made in Japan” red label Yamaha’s are sought after, but was this a customer choice not to cut off the neck and just make it a bolt on or did this just become a quest for you to get it off?
That is what I am doing to the exact same guitar, right now, except I just do a dowel glue on, bolts are not needed. A number of imports are made new with a butt joint and dowels, which works fine, no bolts are needed.
do luthiers charge by the hour or by type of repair? like, what happens if you think this is like a 30min job and tell your customer the price accordingly, but then it ends up being 5hrs?
One would think if you did that drilling procedure often you would have a brill bit kit ready for this process. Not have to try and find one to match your steamer???? Just my thoughts But I did like your cutting process.
Always great watching a craftsman plying his trade.Yeshua is The Way The Truth and The Life. God bless you brother.
I saw the title and expected a train wreck, sorry but those are the most notoriously difficult necks to get off of any guitar out there. There is at least another video or two out there that runs into the same issue. I doubt that it has hide glue, I think it is epoxy, but that is just my opinion, as they used different glues at different stages. I have the same guitar right now right here with the same issues if not worse than that one. I have removed the bridge, I am putting another layer of maple on the bridge plate. If I can't get the action down to at least bluegrass level then I will do a neck reset, but on this cheap guitar, it will be a kamikaze decapitation and then dowel it back on reset (bolts are not needed at all), and I won't even attempt to do what you did on this particular Taiwan FG160. good luck with yours!
Ufda May!
Morel of the story…no Yamaha reds neck resets…!!!😬
Wow...just when you think you've seen everything huh?😵💫
Jerry, I hate Yamaha joinery!!! I did a 12 string. I'm having DEJAVU here!!! I pushed it off finally with the neck removal push device. It was destruction. Luckily it was my old guinea pig guitar. I finally got it. I did discover that by insulating that steam hose it remains steam and doesn't go back to hot water. STILL it a mess. I'm watching this and follow many many of your repairs. My frame of mind is the same as you have naw!!! My Dad would say "Come- Bleed -or Blister". JUST DO SOMETHING!!! GOOD LUCK JERRY! from HOT Georgia!!! PS: what scares me is Steam is Invisible... PSS:dang dowel!!!!
Steam is like nitro fuel, you don't know where it is, until you're missing flesh. 😱😱😱
So, was that dowel "factory"? A sign of an earlier repair? Not "usual"? That surface around the neck looked perfectly flat and finished.
@@truthray2885: The dowel in the heel is from the factory. It is intended
to help hold the stacked heel parts together.
How about dry steaming ?
In my opinion that method is more hype than reality I've tried it many times and it just doesn't work
I have heard of using vinegar to loosen hide glue. You probably have tried it, but if not, it may be worth a shot.
Alcohol works also.
I just don't understand between a tight dovetail and reenforced dowel why so many old Yamaha necks ever need resetting? but they do.
The body slowly deforms around the neck joint. It takes decades. Guitars get old, just like people.
If you have high blood pressure, don't watch this...you could stroke out...caution is advised...)
By already having the back off I did your cheaters neck reset and got away much easier it seems
It's a nice tight joint you're not going to wiggle it put on your clamp
I wish you had a shirt that reads 420
You know why he doesn't?
Because, he's not a pot head.
wow
hyde glue is soluble, you mix it with water, .., he gonna destroy the dovetail, he just said he done alot of neck resets,,,yea,,really......all that water is doing the guitar wonders.,
I won’t take Red Label Yamaha’s in my shop for neck resets. More than half of them are set with epoxy. It just isn’t worth the gamble. I feel for you Brother. Once bitten twice shy as they say.