Brexit: How vulnerable is peace and prosperity in NI? - BBC Newsnight
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- How will Brexit affect the people in the Irish border town of Strabane? The documentary maker Peter Taylor was reporting from there 44 years ago during the Troubles.
Now - as the question of what to do about the Irish border reaches crunch time - he's been back to Strabane.
Newsnight is the BBC's flagship news and current affairs TV programme - with analysis, debate, exclusives, and robust interviews.
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Reads title
*Sweats nervously and enters comments*
Remember the referendum on Scottish independence? What did London bargain with? If they were to vote no, the UK wouldn't leave the EU, they said. Trust the Anglicans to keep a promise. The North remembers.
Bavarian Wordsmith well yea its amusing that the main reason Scotland voted to stay was the promise the UK would vote no on brexit and Scotland wouldn't have to risk membership by leaving but since they are now already leaving circumstances have changed and ofc there should be another referendum sometime in 2019 or 2020
England should let go of its last remnants of imperialism and colonialism , respecting people's will of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
then ask them to read history and confess for their ancestors'sin to colonize Ireland.
Kevin Joe - some Loyalists accept the Plantation of Ulster was wrong but they are still proud to be British, it's a very conflicting situation for them I would imagine
But Scotland are granted referendums when they wish, at any time. Sturgeon is waiting for the right time, because independence in Scotland isn't as strong as it once was. I also think the independence that Sturgeon wants, is not the independence that Scottish Nationalists want, or i could be wrong, and they want to come out of the UK to be free from their rules and regulations and then enter the EU and abide by their rules and regulations. It makes no sense to me.
I do not think u can convince the old colonizers to accept the new colonizers...once the old colonizers identify themselves as victims...haha
let me tell you something ,too, the UK can not escape from the fate of declining from an empire where the sun never set to a second-rate sycophant country of USA. similarly, it can not avoid the fate of decolonization and disintegration. The day the English chose Brexit, they had to face the repercussion and the aftermath. just wait and see
United ireland the only way forward
Northern Ireland will always be part of the United Kingdom!
Kevin Mulder No doubt you’re happy to condone murder yourself.
Jordan James
The vote for Brexit and English chauvinism assured an united Ireland.
It's only a matter of time.
Prepared for peace ready for war!
gary power It really isn't. We need generations to even broach the subject.
Truthfully, until there are no more "peace walls" and there is proper integration of communities, ie. schools, housing etc. Northern Ireland will still have sectarian division. Adding a hard border will just intensify those divisions. But a lot of blame for the stagnation up to now goes to the encouragement of tribalism by politicians on both sides.
Ireland will veto any hard border proposal anyway
I am from N.Ireland; living in Holland. No vote for anyone living outside the UK more than 7 years. Irish living in UK got a vote in Brexit.
why is uk invloved in irelands business
brokecreole Because our Northern part has been annexed by them, thus making it their business to resolve. You're welcome.
Because even though Ireland is part of the British Isles geographically, it is not part of the union of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland however, are part of the union of the UK. So you can see the complications.
Ver Coda and do you live in ROI or NI?
Because the British colonised Ireland in the1600s and occupied land and industry and their decendants are still there.
J Mulc well the UK mainland was successively occupied by
Romans
Saxons
Vikings
Normans
Danes
But strangely enough we are basically happy and get along well.
And we don't begrudge all that history of conquest.
We just look at it as a flow of history that tells us roughly how we got here.
Instead of wallowing around in historic grudges, can i suggest we look for a way forward?
As an Englishman i would actually rejoice to see Ireland
. United
. At ease with itself
. Prosperous
. Friendly
That would be great. I think the only obstacle is that unionists are more royalists than your average englander.
That might be both a simplification and exaggeration at the same time.
Don't the NI people have the right to choose to sue for unity with ROI?
Fantastic piece.
..and yet.. not peace! ;)
I see they've left the bit out about David and Michael devine and Charles breslin being killed after surrendering
As long as they are dead that is the main thing.
Derek McManus every word you said was in an Irish accent
Edits have to be voted down. Only idiots change what they posted. Get it right first time or delete and repost.
Yes but at least they weren't tortured first unlike any soldier caught by the coward cunt provisionals there may not have been a shoot to kill policy but there fucking should've been
@05:31 - This is why we fight, why we always fight and die for Ireland. I am close to tears.
David Keane It's one thing to fight, quite another to kill innocents. The IRA are murderers, don't glorify them.
Sad romantic bastard lol
If it's outside the EU There needs to be a boarder.Otherwise how can the EU keep track of who comes and leaves the EU. Borders are what defines the line between different nations. So if ve want to live in a world made up of different nations, we have to live with borders. And Britain are after Brexit a foreign nation to the EU.
God bless Peter Taylor. Best wishes to the people of Strabane and everyone on both sides of the border. A hard border would be foolish, regardless of what individual politicians might claim.
OMG SHE WAS MY TEACHER MRS.DEVENNY AHHHHH I MISS YOUUUUUUU ITS ME CHARLEY 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
I think Arlene Foster is being somewhat disingenuous here. The truth is she's not interested in the economic fallout of Brexit on the North's economy, her only desire is to keep Northern Ireland as part of the UK. Throwing up customs posts and checkpoints between the Republic and the North would be a wet dream for her regardless of the damage it could do to businesses who export to the South. She claims, in public, that she doesn't want a hard border but you can bet your ass she's on her knees every night hoping for exactly that to happen.
You see it's only in in your heads you have this idea in your heads did you own everything did the British think that can be deported every country in the world
Excellent reporting. As ever, Peter Taylor.
If there were ever going to be a united Ireland we really should pay attention to the German reunification and what worked and didn't work. People in the East still earn less than the West, there's higher unemployment in the East and there are many who felt completely ambushed by the West German Government at the time, hence, we end up with high AFD support in those areas. Germans still pay a solidarity tax to align the two regions. These are all things we, in Ireland, would need to consider.
Marienkäfer well no worry of the east of Ireland earning less then the west 😂😂😂😂😂
This bureaucratic stupidity may cost human lives. Let those people live in peace and put the border somewhere else.
Brexit is an unexplored road, wrapped in a quiet, mysterious fog.
Simiral Entertainment very poetic! Irish, by any chance?
The Irish government are right. If there is a hard Brexit there will be a physical border between the North and South. This is not fearmongering, it's cold reality. Even with a Brexit deal the prospect of a physical border is still a very real possibility. Northern Ireland has made great strides since the Good Friday Agreement and I'd hate to see all that hard work wasted just to please a bunch of Brexiteers in England.
The Celts own the whole that one time and and none of it was for them to the Anglo-Saxon Norman's Vikings
We need to wish up. The IR is playing a game thinking the EU cares about them. There is no reason for a border problem between NI and Ireland and no economic effect unless the EU And Sinn Fein use it to pressure UK. Our government needs to stand firm and say the UK as a whole is leaving and Ireland either accepts that or deals with the fallout
lfcgero:
I never said anything about loyalist or army killings. What I said was THE IRA WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE DEATHS IN THE TROUBLES IN THE EXACT SAME WAY AS HITLER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE DEATHS IN WW2. Now, is that clear enough for you? I draw other comparisons between the IRA and Hitler, both want(ed) to clear out (exterminate if necessary) the native population in lands to the East to make room for their own righteous people. Maybe you should reread that before responding, we don't want anymore of your misdirection. In reference to the Ballymurphy incident you mention, I was actually there and witnessed it first hand, the IRA shot at the army, the army returned fire, some people got killed ... the blame lies fully with the IRA.
"The blame game gets you no where , admitting that no one was right is the first step to proper peace." - absolute bullshit. You are very confused, what you are doing is helping to create new Nationalist myths by whitewashing the role of the IRA. Wake up, extreme Nationalism, as Irish Nationalism, is a sickness which causes ordinary people to come to believe that doing bad stuff is justified because the cause is worthy.
"This is why the troubles lasted so long with attitudes like yours." - absolute bullshit. The Troubles lasted so long because the Nationalist myth of a United Ireland keeps being upheld by gabshites like yerself and young foolish kids fall victim.
You obviously don't like to hear my views but listen to this funny but true story. When I was a youngster in Belfast I believed in the Nationalist myth of a new socialist Ireland, the first time I got to vote I voted for the Socialist Workers Party (affiliated to the Official IRA), living all through the IRA's murderous campaigns, loosing friends and family I never voted unionist until last year, now I vote DUP. So all I can say is Chuckie, your day will never come.
to be even handed in this
Dear British trade to take America and it didn't work for them that tried to take Australia and they didn't work with my router take care I did not work with my data and the treat Ireland and I didn't work for the mater
I'm an outsider, neither Irish nor British. I don't think there's going to be a hard border. It's the Republic of Ireland which could probably do the hard border but I doubt they'll do it due to the complexity of the problem.
Ulster Unionists and Loyalists need accept a United Ireland might happen sooner rather than later they need be accommodated they should be trying do a deal in event they lose United Ireland referendum badly.
At the end of the day were all the same English irish and the Scottish people. Im sick of it it's the rich politicians English irish and Scottish politicians throughout our history that have made the working class people of this island fight constantly over there stupid agendas well stupid things sometimes if were honest could you imagine the great things we could have done if we all worked together we could have prosperd if we didnt have politicians at all our ears because it's the politicians who play on our feelings all the time I'm fed up with it be who you wan't to be but respect each other and respect our cultures and our heritage and follow the law if you come here it's simple I'm a proud white English girl and im not ashamed to say it were a democratic society we need to start talking honestly and at the end come up with a solution it's about a give a take life about ' decisions but decisions are never easy because we all have our feelings but if were all calm about a situation we can come to as conclusion because at the end of the day we are more happy when we've got cloths on our backs and food in our stumucks a roof over our heads and good paying jobs I'm English i love Scottish and Irish and Welsh working people who have Allways suffered through some bullshit and made to hate and fight eachother because of our governments and it's same now Europe is to blame for the Irish boarder tensions now bringing it it up playing party politics on the issue because the tensions in Ireland were simmering down untill Europe brought it up because they didn't like that vote the people had it makes me so mad the Irish can still trade on all sides as people we trade that's not going to stop the only reason it would stop or made difficult is the politicians in Brussels and here start stirring the pot makeing things ten times worse as perusal the Irish sell more goods to to the English then they do Europe why would the polticians cut of there noses to spite there faces because they don't likr the results of the referendum it seems the issue would be sorted in a day if the politicians really cared but they don't trade freely no taffis there shouldn't even be s boarder on this island in my opinion when we're one people who have different ways of doing things in our culture that's all and that's okay ☺️ we should respect that but were the same I've Allways said it we just have different views sometimes but we should talk honestly without it ending in violence the truth hurts it Allways has done but we're humans we have every single emotions in us and personality in us it's whether we bring it out of us or not
Sry, but it is not the EU who brings this up. Nobody in the EU or in Europe wanted Brexit. We didnt vote for it, you did! It is impossible to have a Customs Unioun without a border, not possible and you have been told a 1000 times that there will be big trouble in Nothern Ireland if you leave, not because somebody wants to have it, but because it is techincaly not possible to solve the issue. All you had to say was, blablabla Scaremongering.
Britain has always been treated like a special child by Bruxelles, always and yet you always had something to complain about. You wanted to stay out from the Schengen-Treaty, fine stay out, you wanted to stay out from the Euro, fine stay out, Bruxelles wants a European Army, you veto it. You want Brexit, fine you can go, you want out of the Single Market, fine you can go, you want out of the customs union, fine you can go. You got everything you want from the EU and it is still the EUs fold? Nobody is to blame, but yourself.
mandy Hoyle Fantastic comment
Man I we had a vote the leave side won its democracy on this island in elections we vote as one unless its local elections its democracy its not the people's of Europe people had a problem with in brexit it's Brussels were they have a ideology of, the no boarders crap let's let everyone when we have already problems like homelessness why would we invite more poverty we need to help people were they are Brussels likes to play party politics money money money wanting it there way not listening to the people in Europe brexit happend because they didn't listen they were warned for years and it happened people had enough it's why were going so we can create our own future we won't starve to death it's that's what people on the remain side think people don't want it in Europe people have more of a problem with migration now mainly from outside of Europe were there instability were theres lawlessness and terrorism Isis Extra witch should be our main threat we need to eliminate well Isis and we need to start helping people were they are istead of saying Come here knowing we carnt help um and knowing people i. Europe don't want it they play politics all the time they didn't even listen to the Irish when they wanted change nigal farage even stood bye the Irish when Brussels made Ireland vote again because it didn't go there way so they scared people into voteing again the boarder wasn't a issue until Nicola sturgeon brought it up at the beginning of the referendum now it's a problem because Nicola and Europe stirred the pot and the media like this because they didn't like that the people had the vote and it's not leaveing if we don't leave the single market Europe was only original made for trade on political union i don't want someone makeing desisions for us were capable of doing it our self's we did before we joined and was for peace were more divided then ever before brexit was a consiquence to a actions there's Allways a reaction to a action were humans beings but it came to a point were people said enough d enough and that's why we are were we are because librals and politicians celebrity the media the banks haven't been listening to the people they were all on the remain side wanting to stay it because they have benefit from Brussels the working class people don't there left paying the taxes all over Europe people have had enough it's why youve seen the right riseing because there saying what the people realy think the mainstream libraal ideologues are scarred of people thinking for them self's it's why the left are like sheep they run Hollywood and the media and the banks and the college's brainwashing kids to believe if you don't think this way your a racist or you a bad person they try to morally black mail you on to believeing what they do that's what the left wing people do use violence and intimidation shouting racist at you to believe what they do you can't be a freethinker no more it's the sheep mentality that they push on people people like owen Jones and Jeremy Corbyn people are wakeing up from the brainwashing thankgod left wing politicians arnt winning over people anymore it's why people are going indipendant on media because the left wing media like the BBC and channel for have the lefts points of views but majority of White working class people don't want there agendas
Mandy, I dont criticize Brexit in it self. I know very well you voted in a democratic Referendum to leave the EU and it seems the Single Market and the Customs Union. I respect your vote, but as you stated in your comment: "it's Brussels were they have a ideology of, the no boarders crap let's let everyone when we have already problems like homelessness why would we invite more poverty we need to help people were they are Brussels"
You are against open boarders and all the Brexiters too. But now somehow magically in Nothern Ireland you change your mind and you are FOR open borders and if you cant get both, that means closed borders where you like it and open borders where you like it, it is Bruxelles fold? xD As I said, I dont criticize you for voting Brexit, but I do criticize you for your hipocrisy. I am also not a big fan of the current EU, but I do have to state that often people in England are blaming to much of things on the EU. Bruxelles didnt brought you immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Nigeria etc. It was your own gouverment in London who did and who will continue to do so, also after you have left the EU, because since the Brexitref the immigration from EU is falling and the immigration from nonEU is rising. If you have problems with Polish, Germans, French, Spanish people and you voted therefore Brexit, in order to keep them out, it is fair enough, you did the right choice for yourself, in that case.
what should we do? ignore 17 million peolpe because of northern ireland? No.
so glad to hear a familiar voice.
Honest queation: why does the uk bother keepong northern ireland? Seems more of an inconvenience to keep
Agree entrely
Westcountry Liberal
@johnny cash true they want revenge if they gave up with the North then the Protestants will fight and then the Catholics will want revenge and then a new war will happen
No option but for the North to remain in the customs union
Fred Fernackerpan They really aren't. Hence why it is creating problems.
Fred Fernackerpan you couldnt be more wrong , put cameras up watch them get destroyed , put security to protect the cameras they get attacked then what psni british soldiers again. If you think this is scaremongering you couldnt be more wrong ask the northern irish this same question and see what happens. There is always a possibility of at least civil unrest at the very least along a hard border.
Fred Fernackerpan we will see i hope you are right but knowing my countrys history and having lived through the troubles i can see some anger ahead it will all depend on how the irish and british come to an agreement if they agree at all.
By the way i have travelled across most of the border crossings hundreds of times over the last 20 years of peace and never have i been stopped on either side by customs or police. I fear this will change now a massive backward step. Both the british and irish goverments a playing with fire here and will get burned if they dont sort it soon.
Fred Fernackerpan any border sea or land will cause trouble in some regard. I really dont think your goverment know what they are doing or what they really want , the people are more certain than the politicans which is scary. You mighten agree with the irish goverment which i do not support on most things but this issue i think they have handled it better than your goverment has. This will get worse before it will get better of that i am certain.
Why do the English call it the "troubles", while it was surely an oppressive war ?
It`s a euphemism. If they called it a war, the prisoners would have had more rights. Plus you are also admitting the scale of the violence taking place. Calling it the "troubles" down plays it for the rest of the UK / world.
What prosperiry? Its lagging The Republic and even the rest of the UK.
Give all possible options to Northern Irish and let them decide what they want.
None Nonee the people of Northern Ireland voted to remain.
I need a tractor what the fastest car is Traitors that one anyway
Wey hey its Strabane am aff for a pint at diceys then am aff ta tha bowling green
If Northern Ireland left the UK and ceded control of their country from local devolved government (stormount) to Dublin (the Oireachtas) does that mean the uk will no longer be obligated to maintain and uphold the common travel area agreement that affords Irish people freedom (some would say an unfair advantage) to enter and stay within the UK without complication and will essentially relegate its citizens seeking to enter the UK to the status of.. say.. Bangladeshis applying for work permits or visas (freedom of movement is slated to end after brexit) ? Will northern Ireland become a unitary state with its own regional administration within a federal union with the republic or will that be dismantled, NI subsumed into a Dublin centric administration? It looks like northern Irish people already have a good deal.. I've visited both Dublin and Belfast and poverty is much more pronounced and visible in Dublin.. Belfast seemed very affluent and upwardly mobile by comparison. Lots of entrepreneurs and small businesses thriving and bustling. Just some questions and observations.
Northern Ireland appears affluent because of the 11 billion euro it costs the rest of Britain to keep it afloat. With the public service providing 37% of all jobs, the UK government is providing funds to keep people employed, because it's cheaper than fighting terrorism.
If NI had the same proportion of public jobs as the ROI (21%), unemployment there would head for 20% with the resultant unrest. The ROI is the most successfully growing economy in Europe - unemployment at 5%, growth at 4%.
TOI4PHKc I don't see a precedent within history.. Beyond the British unifying Ireland under the crown . And perhaps some very tenuous and questionable loose treaties within Ireland before.. My region borders France in Spain and shares certain traditions and customs with our French neighbours , it does not mean I or other people within my region want to renounce our Spanishness and desire to cede our governance to the French for example . I'm talking from that perspective. The republic of Ireland is very heavily reliant on the eu (its membership of the eu combined with its questionably criminally low corporation tax rate that allows big multinationals to evade billions in tax.. ) remove the eu and Ireland reverts back to a primitive agricultural economy, so the argument northern Ireland is too reliant on the uk seems hypocritical. I do not know what the solution is but from my experience of visiting Ireland, Northern Ireland would not benefit by ceding its regional autonomy to a Dublin centric government. Some put romantic aspirations before the implication of reality so the northern Irish may have to learn the difficult way. I don't know.
TOI4PHKc your interpretation of history seems generous, Ireland for much of its history before British rule was a series of feudal kingdoms and chiefdoms. Perhaps there was a common treaty or non aggression pact between kingdoms but they were still autonomous and looked after only their affairs . Also the Irish attacked, pillaged robbed, looted and waged a campaign of terror and murder against the island of Britain for hundreds and hundreds of years.. Enslaving and terrorising Britain's native inhabitants, long before Christianity or the reformation..invading Scotland and displacing native picts, You talk of Ireland like a benign peaceable utopia.. I'm sorry history tells me your Ireland is embellishments, figment of the famous Irish imagination. Your Saint for example was a Welsh monk abducted, violently enslaved and held within Ireland against his will. Irish people wonder why the British invaded them.. I view Ireland realistically, my country is not perfect but I do not perpetuate lies or fantasies to hide its mistakes and blame other nationalities for them.
Your comments are incorrect to say the least. You seem to blame the irish for their 400 years of occupation under english or british rule. You are very misguided and some of the replies both from north and south of ireland proves this , maybe if you read something other than english history books or wiki you might be more informed. Ireland has a very complicated history , your comments do not portray this unfortunatley and give the idea that it is a simple matter of the irish not being able to stand on our own two feet and needing the british or the eu to rule us is laughable.
Melinda Diaz Dumb bitch.
Northern Ireland might as well be Northern Iraq to the English and the Irish.
People living there need to understand people on either side couldn’t care less about them. Pick a side. But seriously.
Game of thrones is good tho? Innit?
True though. Neither the Irish nor the British would give a shit if the North sank into the sea.
DUP are the only ones holding this process up as all because of their bitterness towards anything Irish. They are trying their hardest to hang on to 6 counties but the writing is on the wall for everyone to see even the farmers union have said if a United Ireland Is better for business then that what they will be going for
Im a unionist, if a unified ireland is more beneficial to all citizens and its fair amd square. I honestly wouldn't be taking up arms. Im cruious as to see what they will draw up. If its not better tham what we have atm then i really don't see it happening
@Jerry O Sullivan i only just noticed this in my email Jerry. I seen this ages ago on TV. There is nothing in this doc that were not already well schooled in and grew up experiencing. I honestly and confidently do not think knuckledraggers like the dissidents have enough clout to bring the country to uts knees again. The old guard surebas hell dont wantbit either. Weve been there done that and we all have the physical and mental scars to go with it.
@Jerry O Sullivan I think were all at that stage now, nobody wants shit. I doubt it Jerry, the money the guys are making on the tours of them are unreal!! 60 quid a head taxi drivers are charging!! They tell them any oul crap they wanna hear depending on their political persuasion lol.... Hope you're well sir.
Just wait till Muslims get added to the mix. It will be the Troubles on overdose.
I got my haircut across the bridge in lifford
U mad man
Looks like the price of GAA shirts are going up? ;)
As well a the Sinn Féin voter count. If they decide to join the customs union. I don't know why unionists support the idea of NI leaving the customs union. The only outcome I can see is at least Sinn Féin and the SDLP forming the majority the government and maybe even a reunification refurendum. You're shooting yourself in the foot by leaving the customs union
More propaganda from the BBC in relation to their socialist empire building in Ulster.
No surrender.
info beam Enjoy your failing UK economy. Your crumbling shit roads and infrastructure.
Enjoy poverty and no future for your children.
You are in dreamland. High employment = a healthy society.
info beam The UK has high employment but it's low paying employment.
Prepared for peace, ready for war! ;)
I was there as a vet. locum. I know well the situation - 3,600 killed. Many from my former regimen Somerset Light Infantry - young boys who did not know where or why N. Ireland was.
Stop playing with lives. Reunite Ireland. Stay in EU.
Westcountry Liberal