To be honest, if members of the CAG want to set up a new Rules Committee I'd support it over a Wotc-run Commander. I don't trust Wotc as a company, having seen what they've done to the MTG and DnD players in the past.
Its not even a joke, he making a point, dockside did come from a precon but its really powerful, but it alone did not raise the power level of the precon
They never were Independent.. imagine the would have banned those cards two years ago - Ixalan and MH3 would have been dead = multimillion dollar damage
I would rather take anything else than WOTC taking over. Them officially managing the format is my signal to start preparing to get out, I've seen what they do when they have control and I'm purely not interested in anything they have come up with.
The best thing for the RC to have done was what I was telling everyone at the first commander product when they were putting sol ring in all the decks. As much as I like some of the precon commanders, the best thing to have done was to make the statement banning all Commander product. If Wizards wants to have commander, let them have Commander. But let it not be EDH. It would have sent a message quickly enough and EDH was originally just a variant format made by some dudes anyway. Keeping them clearly separate from the start would have been the way to go.
These bannings were the death-knell for me. WOTC is going to learn that this is an unsanctioned format. I fully intend to proxy anything over $15. I probably spend about $4k a year on magic. That's about to change significantly.
The fact that the RC had one single bad(entirely subjective and debatable) ban and you think that its a good argument to say that WoTC is a better option is wild. WoTC which has had multiple ban fumbles and recently kept The One Ring unbanned in modern. Horrible take, the RC is and will be way better than anything WoTC could come up with, and the new power ranking was something the RC was involved with too, so there goes that arguement.
This seems terrible. I think it’s the beginning of the end. Having a concrete power level scaling is good. But this sounds tedious and you NEED to either give a decklist or have a rule zero-type discussion anyways so this solves nothing so far. A solid ban list would just solve everything. The less fast mana, the more even precon level decks can compete with the higher tiers just because the ceiling moves closer to the floor.
A "solid ban list" would compress the format alright, but this compression is, in part, what's keeping every other format from coming even close to commander in popularity. Variation is the spice of life, and arguably the lifeblood of commander. If you don't have that, you commander will decline. What's more, it doesn't work if it doesn't account for experience. A precon is a 1 in the hands of a beginner, but it can be much higher in the hands of a seasoned player. Compressing the format just forces these two groups together even more, which also will lead to the same problems that tournament formats have - They are decidedly not newb-friendly.
I have decks of all different power levels. If you are playing a precon I have a deck that would be great playing with those decks. If you want to play high power I have a deck for that also. Why bring the ceiling to the floor??? Sometimes I want to play high power. Sometimes I want to play low power. Why limit players like me??
@@tommieboi707 a) do whatever you want. B) the problem lies with every one not knowing or agreeing on what power levels are. I have had games where the players agreed to a 7-8 game. The game goes on for 10 turns and someone at the end complains, “oh that was too fast, you guys are playing cEDH.” Like, no lol. Players don’t know jack about jack. Can’t agree on definitions of power levels. I go to play a 5-6 and some guy brings mana crypt and vault saying that “it’s not that good outside of cEDH” despite propelling them to a fast start. Nadu is another one that players just dumped in the 99 of bumbleflower precons. Do you know how incredibly strong that deck gets with Bumbleflower and Nadu out? They’re almost made for each other. Point is, cards may not dictate power level, but they definitely skew it. Especially when they’re incredibly broken. Again. Play what you want, but the majority of newer players don’t understand why Swords to plowshares the most popular and efficient creature removal spell is in the same category of ubiquity as sol ring and can’t see that these cards are outliers compared to most magic cards. They’ll just put in whatever sees the most play.
@@jcstaff1007 so your plan is to just even the playing field by banning all "powerful cards". It doesn't matter if 2 players are playing precons. The more experience player will still pub stomp the new player with a precon. That's why you split up the new players to their own pods. Don't take out powerful cards so I have to pay with new players just to wreck them with precons anyway. Doesn't make sense. You sound like developer infinity war with their "safe spaces" in modern warfare 2018. Ask everyone how that turned out for the new players/experienced players. Not a very good overall experience for anybody. Instead of trying to lower the ceiling so everyone plays with the same slow cards. Split up the pods into new/precons. Casual/mid power. High power/cedh. It has been working fine at my local lgs for the past 2 years. No one is butt hurt at the end of the night and it makes for an even playing field without having to worry if a card is banned or not.
We have concrete power scaling terms. Edh has multiple “formats” inside it that describe the power levels An example: Cedh 9-10 the most fine tuned. Battle cruiser 8 8.5, fine tuned decks with synergy that build up to win cons. This is “high powered”. And there’s other definitions… The RC wizards and CAG say they didn’t expect the backlash. But they did its 125million dollars+ in damage that was done to the players. CAG knew what was happening and Rebel part of CAG had to re-upload their video and change titles because they admitted to helping with the RCs ban list. The RC admitted to communicating with Wotc on when the reveal the bans so the RCs bans didn’t interfere with wotc sales. (They sold out of festival in a box on the chance for manacrypt and jeweled lotus). They knew of the backlash… all 3 of these parties acted maliciously towards their player base. With members like Olivia trying to show some good faith, and trying to reason/plan with their governing body. The RC did not have to give up its position to wizards, and could have gave it to top8s tournament advisors who have been submitting recommendations. Instead spitefully they gave the power to wizards and we as players should say “no”. The spirit of Edh was created by players to be social and we should all get together and self promote ourselves. Keep it a format made by players and reasonable controlled by players.
it is way better to put people that run certain cards on the 3 and 4 tier. Making them have to deal with the same Cards. Rather than argue on if its a 1 and 2. Rather than everyone not knowing where to go and then sitting down saying "my power is lower. Trust me." NOW you know where you are supposed to go. And in order to play with others you gotta argue why you should stay. If not. Go to the 3 and 4 side. You now have a DEFINITE way to know where your supposed to be. Its better than rule 0 Cause you already have a guideline for where you should be. Something that even the banlist has problems doing. I am in the minority. but i agree. I think this new change to Wizards Controlling Commander just might be a really good decision
Soon after the ban, and at the end of a LONG shift of work, I had a similar idea of tiering cards. To better define power level of decks and to mitigate how much you have to ban as cards can be locked to higher tiers rather than removed from the card pool entirely. RC's heavy handed and reckless handling of the bans devastated the secondary market at the very least. CEDH seemed to notice a worsening of their side as bigger commanders couldn't keep up with lower cost commanders who could afford to lose the three banned cards.
I agree with your stance on these changes. Although I will remain cautious, WotC taking over seems as though it will diminish some of the unacceptable toxicity the rules comity has faced this past week, with some of that toxicity being directed at the fact that the rules comity is independent from WotC. And hey, if WotC completely fails with this new system, at least we can enjoy our cards in the comfort of our own playgroups (WotC can never take my dockside from me, I'll make sure of it!)
So... Every deck is a 3, eh? Joke aside: How the hell are they going to account for synergy? It's basically impossible to do mechanically. And bad matchups? And skill level difference? It's patently ridiculous to try to codify these things. And if, through some sort of infernal intervention, they manage to bring this system together, people who disagree with their rating will just fudge the numbers.
Yeah of course there will be bad actors, but a more standardized approach to overall power level is great for most newer players and most pods out there. There's always going to be exceptions, but we shouldn't NOT change things because of this
@@deckdriverMTG This is true, I'm just wondering how they'll make this not-entirely-arbitrary, and truth be told, I can't see it. Cards are contextually powerful, in a way that an automated calculator can't take into account: A relevant tutor in a combo deck is very powerful. A relevant tutor in a toolbox deck is less so. Cultivate in the right deck can set a chain of actions into motion that just wins the game outright, while in most decks it's just bog-standard ramp. You see what I'm saying. I think any attempt to objectively evaluate decks, without having solid and long-going stats on past games played, will be futile and will cause a lot of even worse mismatches if people abide by this system. Queue even more discord in the community. And as a tangent to that, I'm also worried that now when they have grabbed the reins of the format, there will be an increasing rate of bans of long-time strong cards, and even more egregious designs in new product launches - Effectively instating a rotation on the format. Papa Hasbro won't let Wizards NOT abuse their new-found ownership of the format.
I like the intention to standardize power levels. I disagree with the methodology though. Having one powerful card does not mean your deck is powerful - there is something called synergy 😂
It’s not really the way to look at it. You just know, if you want to build a “2”, you don’t play mana vault. Right? And if you wanna play thoracle you’ll know you need to play it in a higher level deck. Unless everyone just says “let’s just play commander” by which I mean cedh.. aka.. commander, then you’ll have to find a way to do this. The more complete it is the more complex it is. This seems like a decent way for people to build and categorize their decks. Not perfect. But super clean. Now as a comp player.. ima break it 😈 😉 Namaste 🖖
@@BudgetPubStomper-lr7nh So what you're saying is that people who get lucky cracking packs shouldn't use their new cardboard, because it would proclude them from effectively competing in the power bracket their deck really is? Sounds a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
@@xxhellspawnedxx If someone opens a powerful card and wants to play it, they can. Most Commander players have multiple decks, and probably have a deck of a matching power 'bracket' that they could put new cards in. The only potential issue I see happening is players opening 4-power cards and not having a high powered deck for them.
@@cylver3593they can always save them for later when they get a deck together for that level. Alternatively they can still play their underpowered deck with those few good cards to tinker and improve their own deck knowledge. If it's a newer player, having them learn the game with a lower tier deck gives them a safer place to get fundamentals learned and practiced for when they decide to play bigger magic. Either way, the powerful cardboard is still playable in some capacity.
@@xxhellspawnedxx I wasn’t really saying anything at all. I was more trying to explain what I think the RC was saying. But honestly, yeah, I think if you are playing against low power decks and you get lucky cracking packs or scoring a job that allows you to buy the best cards you prob shouldn’t jam them against low power decks w players who don’t have access to the same cards?? Idk? The entire thing seems like nonesense to me. I don’t play “casual” commander. I haven’t always played “cedh” because my friends and I used to kinda suck at deck building. But as we got better at it our decks got better and we NEVER never even considered saying to each other “can you not play that against me? It’s too strong for me.” I can’t even imagine. But, yeah, I think having actual rules is a step in the right direction. I don’t think this system is perfect. But I do think it’s better than literally nothing. Probably🤷♂️. Idk. I wouldn’t monkey w any of it. I’d just find a group that wants to take the gloves off. And, if you think “my friends and I can’t afford to build powerful decks”. Take a look at my channel. That’s what I’m here for 🤔 Namaste homie🖖
This tier system is for when you're out and about at a locals to play casually or for teaching newer players by building at a lower level. If you're at a higher end local, you can use brackets three or four as though you were at or near CEDH POWER. Chuds looking to flex their Lotus and Crypt at a casual table will be a thing of the past with this bracket system.
@otterfire4712 this is same conversation we've been having for years. Power systems aren't thats why we know the difference between edh and cedh today. this is just rehashing the same thing over and over. Pub stomping is going to happen no matter what. Lotus, dockside and Nadu were all new card made with edh in mind. Sound like they need to make less edh specific cards, rather make a new power system for each card. Casual, high-powered, and cedh is supposed to be the spits. Is a thax deck the same level as nerset l, l if I add a mana crypt?....no its about how you build your deck,just as much as the cards in them. Cedh doesn't automatically edh decks. Match's ups are still important too. Sound like a waste of time to me.
@@64-Palms building for lower brackets shrinks the card pool of usable cards to the more basic cards, which gives newer players a frameworks and lets players with better fundamentals contextualize what makes a good deck by building for lower brackets. Once you get a better understanding of the game, you can get into a wider card pool by climbing the brackets and experiment with deck construction and building more complex decks.
@@64-Palmsthis is the worst reading into a Rystic study what almost every blue deck runs makes your deck higher powered so clue precon for example with one is higher power 😂
This kills commander and it is a sad day. Independent RC can keep broken design space in check, I can say with certainty that if they're out here selling jeweled lotus the same year or the year before the ban of jeweled lotus, wotc would never have banned it. Why would they ever ban cards that they have a secondary market financial incentive on? Disgusted by this.
That's great. I've always envisioned 5 tiers. People don't intend for their decks to be bad, unless it's based around a theme or budget. When every deck is a 7, that leaves only 8, 9, and 10 for everything stronger than your typical mid-range value pile. Anyone who has played cedh knows there are a lot of out-dated decks that simply can't be 10s, like Teferi ChainVeil or Prossh Food Chain. So, I've always split them like this: 5- current meta cedh, 4- low tier/old meta/ brewers' corner cedh (fast mana and intentional combo lines), 3- high power, 2- mid power (real 6's and 7's), 1- precons/budget/theme decks.
I have total faith in the wizards game design department to do what’s best for the format and not the corporation paying their checks!/s Can’t wait for wizards to push even more broken cards lol
this is absolutely one of the worst things that could happen to the format, WoTC has been forcing the power level to go up, has showed that they won't ban if that makes them a quick buck and don't care about keeping promises
I cant belive you agree to this, WoC was the responsable for putting this cards at a high price and print them on premium products with a warning a year before. They handdled the only thing that gave players control of the format and you celebrate? Take a look on how the other formats are going, you have no idea how stupid this is.
@@deckdriverMTG why do you think the problem is only format releated? 1000$ proxys wasn't a red flag to you? how about printing 4 versions of mana crypt a year before ban, no? how about send pinkertons after a guy who opened a scam in form of the WORST set of 2023? Seriously Why do you think this is in the """""""right direction""""""?
@@edpaolosalting9116 i quit yugioh because of this and went back to magic because players still held control over the game, now i see they dont have any competence on doing this, at the first problem they go under the wings of WoC for shelter. RC= Ruthless Cowards
The value of a card is simple economics. Supply/demand. We as a consumer put a price on a card when we decided that paying 200 bucks for a mana crypt was worth it. Don't blame wotc for the valuation. Blame the consumer.
standardised power rating is a bit of a chimera I think. I have 25$ decks that combo consistently t5-t6. also one card does not define deck power level if I add a smothering tithe to a precon I will probably win 0.1% more games 😅
I actually thought a lot about making this automated deep scoring of power level, but it is so hard because the core power level of power level is the interaction between the 100 components of your deck
Yeah I've built a ton of cheaper decks that still can win super fast and very expensive decks that don't win as consistently. Price is definitely not a factor for consistency
@@jean-baptistedelabroise5391 The closest thing we can get to an accurate ranking is win percentage. But then you run into the experience barrier. Many people are really bad at handling quirky decks. I have a whole book case full of commander decks, all over the power scale and covering nearly every archetype (except Eldrazi, fuck Eldrazi), and the ones with the highest win percentages are the ones that are weird and do unexpected things.
I sort of have this system set up for myself, it started of like Canadian Highlander where I could only run a certain number of powerful cards in each deck, maybe 1 - 3, but now all of those cards are on a separate personal ban list of mine, and I actually have a separate deck to play those cards together.
I wonder if with their brackets they have some exception for "cards that dont belong in bracket 1" if they included in the precon itself. If they dont, they either 1) wont be able to reprint things like jeska's will in precons or 2) wont put jeska's will in the list of higher bracket cards.
But it's NOT 4 different formats. It's an overall guideline to give people an idea of where their deck is power wise and what kind of cards push it towards that. So when they sit down at a table, they can actually give a better description of their deck and help the other players realize what they are potentially dealing with. So when people sit down and Rule 0, they can have a better discussion and it's easier to get on same page.
I disagree that its a good thing that it is completly controlled by wotc. They have an insentive to make money and this often comes at the cost of the format and the players money. Obviously I am not saying they arent allowed to make money but it creates a conflict of interest that I would have liked to be avoided.
It would be just easier to assign each card to a cluster: 0 to 4. E.g. Sol Ring = 4 , Basic Lands = 0. Then make the 'power level' of the deck the average score of the deck, adjusted by a sinergy/commander factor. Each commander would get a rank E to A. E.g. a commander like Winota, Joiner of Forces would have a rank of A. Then make brackets based on the ranges: 0 - 1 Tier 1 1 - 2 Tier 2 2 - 3 Tier 3 3 - 4 Tier 4 So you could say: I am playing a D4 level. Which means that the commander is low power but the cards are very powerful.
That bracket shit came so quickly that i'd not be suprised if WoTC/Pinkertons were behind the threats towards RC. It's all now gonna dive steeply so RIP EDH. No firm is gonna keep the philosophy which basically was the soul of commander - the thing that made it all so special.
I hear you. But you will see. There is no way to rank things properly. Many have tried. Not even the greatest games can come close. And if they did. The game would not be fun.
What's more, they have to be context-sensistive, which makes the variance in the system nigh-on endless, and impossible to map accurately. "Card A is a 1, except in combination with card B, then it's a 2, and if you mix cards C, D or E into the composition, it's a hard 4, but only if your opponents don't run X amount of enchantment removal, then it's a 3." and on an on.
My only issue w/ the tier idea is having to vocalize every little thing. For instance, I have Thassa's Oracle in my upgraded Merfolk precon with art-based restrictions. Literally a value Thoracle, which I can't tutor for and likely won't draw. Plus, since I don't play Hakbal very often, will I be penalized somehow for forgetting to mention it?
i think it'll probably end up like: Tier 1: Precons and fun goofy or gimmicky decks Tier 2: Standard casual decks Tier 3: High Power decks Tier 4: cEDH
And a big L to the RC ceeding the format to Wizards. They'll use this control at every turn to force people to buy more sealed product, you just wait and see.
The death threats were the last straw. The whiners ruined everything. Now I have to expect everything will be Yugioh of power creep now. Damn tryhards and their fast mana and their money...
@@xxhellspawnedxx they RC gave up oversight of the format because the death threats were getting out of control and they (fairly!) deemed that it wasn't worth the elongated personal harassment
@@PokemonWalkthroughDS Absolutely, but selling out the rest of us to the people who created the issues to begin with is like, the textbook definition of taking the stupidest course of action.
I'm hesitant to call the ranking system a better way to move the format atm, while 1-2 cards can certainly win a game in a lower powered deck im sure there's going to be synnergy pieces that only exist in tiers because of their prelevance in certain combos. Oracle is a fine card if used as some alt-win in a self-mill deck should the game go on for ~15 turns, but I guarantee it'll be tier 4 because of its ability to be exploited. I hope, like was mentioned, that they don't try and force a concrete "this card is a 4" and take a more holistic approach to the deck like separating based on wincons or potential combos. It is good to see they didn't just default to trying to force a banlist on the format, because honestly that would have personally been a quit moment then and there.
The RC were essentially if not entirely wizards employees already. 2 streamers who get sponsored at various times by WOTC and 3 judges. Its silly to act otherwise
People won't give accurate ratings though. Almost all decks are just going to be "It's a 4 with X cards, but otherwise it's a 2 or 3." No one is likely to say their deck is a 1, no one is likely to say their entire deck is a 4. It'll be the same problem with the 1-10 scale. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that WotC is trying to give us some kind of standard, but there's not really a way to quantify synergy in a deck and I've found that synergy and interaction are usually what determines a deck's strength more than anything else. Also I hope those four cards stay banned as a middle finger to everyone who sent death threats.
Yeah. Synergy, Resilience and Stopping power is where it's at, and those can't just be reduced down into a number. It's also not about the cards themselves, as much as it is about how you use them, i.e. Experience.
Interesting but strange methodology from WOTC. In what bracket would they put a Sol Ring? Grading every card and taking the average is a much better approach.
This might be a tipping point for the commander playerbase. Or might not. But I severely dislike no second entity (besides rule 0) of banning cash-cow-cards.
I hope the tier doesn't take into account CEDH, I'd rather that just be it's own thing rather than have 3 tiers and CEDH. It's an interesting idea, it reminds me of Smogon Pokemon tier list.
Consolidation of power is rarely good for everyone else... WOTC being in control of which cards are printed AND which cards are legal is dangerous when they stand to make a profit if they manipulate those decisions at the expense of a healthy meta
Now this is a decent idea. But I would go further than that: Just transfer every card on the "banned list", barring Ante cards, Shaharezad and the like, into the new "Needs to be discussed before the game" list. Let's call it a "Consent List" to have short, snappy and descriptive name that avoids the mouthful of the previously mentioned name name.
They should clearly differentiate between casual and cedh. the brackets are obviously no ment to be hard categories but a guideline to judge your deck's powerlevel yourself and make it easier to communicate to your play group what your deck can do.
One of the biggest problems is that almost every Mono Black deck uses a lot of cards for some consistency and ramping. Coffers, Demonic, Vampric, Necro, Toxic deluge couldn't think of some more of the cards but a lot of consistency is what Mono Black does.
@@mageius yeah, they need to adress this. Maybe by ranking mono colored decks lower by default. This is obviously still problematic. Also certain commanders should by default increase the rating. Like is there a fun way to build tergrid?
@fidibus4290 The problem is there's some Mono and 2 color decks that are quite powerful. But I also always tend to be able to swap out my commander with another legendary in the 99 to make something interesting deck wise. Personally I just usually just go with the idea that if you're playing against X colors, there's a chance I might see this synergy or combo because it helps that player possibly stabilize or buy time.
cEDH needs to differentiate itself. Its not an "official" format. I hate how everyone just expects the RC to manage cEDH when they aren't even involved. If cEDH needs its own banlist, then cEDH tourney managers need to do that.
if there wouldn't be a tier level i would disagree. But with these new tiers, which i am all for (so don't have to play against someone "innocently" playing armagedon again) i think its all good. And wizards can print all the broken cards it wants, as long as they go to tier 4. I do not think we need the exact values you mentioned though. And I will continue to make tier 1 decks to compete against tier 3 decks.
I definitely seem to be part of the online minority in that I am a fan of this type of bracketing. I agree with your points and It obviously won’t be perfect but it seems much better than a vague 1-10 power scale that’s ultimately left up to the pilot’s opinion of their deck. Of course I’m biased because I play with people who like to downplay their decks but with the bracketing there are less excuses for the type of interaction after someone throws a deadly rollick or meathook massacre my way. I feel like this could incentivize better/more responsible deck building. If you want to be able to say your deck falls into bracket 3 or 2 but it currently has many bracket 4 staples, then you’ll need to find actual synergistic or creative pieces to replace those - which could make the deck even better than before! And I like the idea of having the conversation of “I have one or two bracket 4 cards for my themed deck but everything else is a 3-2” much easier to digest instead of, “It’s probably a 6/7” and then they pull out a bunch of bracket 4 cards that weren’t disclosed.
So we dont need a vauge if you have x it bumps you up to Y banned and problem cards need points so you can say i have X points so you can find like or simalar powerlevels. Like my cat deck is 5 points cause of my savanah manacrypt ancient tomb and fetches ect. But its a cat tribal deck, and my prosper would probably be like a 30 cause its strongest deck with alot of good cards.
Honestly wotc taking full control is the worst posible outcome. This Will be a profit comes first aproach and they can be Even more trigger happy with bans now.
Say good bye to having a face or individuals to be able to communicate with on a more personal level (the RC discord was one example and other well known cag members). Now if you get upset you'll be facing a faceless corporate entity.
I hate to say it, but the idea of powerful cards not helping a lower powered deck just isn't accurate in my opinion that is. Good example, about 12 years ago I had a original Olivia Vampire themed deck. Now of course I'm going to run some of the staples for the Black and Red alongside some more generic cards. But considering a lot of the creatures were Vampires alongside a few other effects to take advantage of things it actually WOULD be using the more consistency pieces because Black and Red are designed to use those types of effects.
Nah, I just don't agree on this one. The RC definitely made a mistake in the rollout of this latest ban announcement, but to imply they're inexperienced about the game is pretty offbase. These people live and breathe commander (and probably play much more of it than anyone at WotC). And the RC has been teasing this power level bracket system for months now, so it's not like Wizards came up with this amazing plan on the spot. Wizards having the keys to the format is potential really dangerous to the health of commander. I'd be a little more cautious about your excitement for this change.
Commander is really three overlapping formats, distinguished by card selection: * Casual Commander - No: stax, infinite loops, land destruction. Budget-friendly, no proxies. * Pay-to-Win Commander - Casual plus pay-to-win cards > $25. Proxies require permission. * Competitive EDH (cEDH) - Play-to-win, nothing legal excluded. Proxies taken for granted. Prominent promoters of Pay-to-Win Commander are WotC, online card dealers, and corporate-sponsored UA-camrs. Here is a translation of WotC's proposed four brackets of Commander power level" Bracket 1: cards < $10 Bracket 2: cards up to $10 - $20 Bracket 3: cards up to $20 - $100 Bracket 4: cards > $100
Where does well-sculpted synergy piles of cheap'ish cards that still win more games than they lose fit into this system? Money isn't the be-all, end-all of power levels. I have 25 dollar decks that, on average, would slap the shit out of most mid-power decks.
@@QuicksilverSG Most pubstomping and power mismatches I've seen have been due to highly synergistic and not overly money'd and powered decks going up against jank piles. Or, in other words, your logic doesn't logic.
This is gonna destroy the game, they will print worse and worse chase cards and do NOTHING to cultivate the origial nature of the format. You're ODing on copium
I hope they will unbanned, Nadu, jeweled lotus, mana crypt and dockside. In that order. Bann Nadu haven't sense. In casual is oppressive, us other like magda, kinan etc. But in cedh, where all these cards shoul be played and only there, is only a good commander. It isn't the best either second either third. It take same or less time as kark sakasima or big etali with clons...
The reality is that it is not only cEDH where these cards get played. The vast outcry and complaints from the average userbase should be evidence of this. Many EDH players are lazy and just slot Mana Crypt in every deck, then play those decks at casual tables.
@@th3summoner I never have seen those cards in casual pods. If you do, you have to expelled these people of your table, it easy. With the new 4 brackets will be more easy to know who is cheating. But banning you don get nothing, the people who want to cheat could do using commanders as Magda or kinnan who could win in turn 3 with a 100$ deck
i support wotc controlling the commander format because i don’t think a cabal of random people who happen to have played the game for a long time should have executive control over how people play. the bottom line is that the company that makes the card game should manage it. if wotc is responsible for both designing and managing commander, this will likely also result in less ‘designed for commander’ cards that ruin both commander and other constructed formats. hopefully these changes standardize the commander format and abolish the more obnoxious casual maladies like ‘rule zero’ and turns commander into a real format.
The company that makes the game should manage it. However, what happened was that EDH was made with the intent to slow down the game and increase variance. Then WOTC saw money, got involved, and printed black lotus for the format among other things. So this was made because of a failure of WOTC to deliver what the people wanted, sufficiently so that WOTC recognized the format. Then they decided to monetize it and put stuff in that had no business being there that went against the spirit of the format. And you think them taking over is going to result in less designed for commander stuff? From the people who already decided that it was a good idea to print Black Lotus specifically for the format? The RC had no power over making cards. So every card that you're saying ruins the format was made by the people you're saying you're glad to see take over. Something that happened specifically after they started putting their mits on it intentionally.
And look at all that money changing hands again as all three cards pop in value. Inside scoop they are going to be unbanning things? Good riddance to the RC I say.
@@deckdriverMTG I feel this RC thing was all done as a step towards making changes to bring back any business and players that left after the recent rules change. I loved the recent bans. Want more bans. And don’t want to see “power levels” introduced as a reason to unban cards.
In the end commander is a community format and has evolved way beyond what it used to be (not even to mention the power creep since its birth). Just because you like games that go over 8+ turns, doesn't mean that this is the experience other players are looking forward to, so don't tell people what to do. What matters most at the end of the day, is that you communicate openly with your playgroup (or random players at LGSs) how fast your deck is and how it wins (combat, burn / ping, combo, sudden I win cards, no real win con, etc.)
@@D4rkRitu4l your right. Commander has evolved from what it used to be. And the recent bans were a way to “undo” the power creep and competitive nature players and WOTC have brought into the game. In the end…if players want to play an mtg game that wins on turn 4 with all competitive decks using the same 20 overpriced and overpowered cards…then just play legacy. Don’t ruin commander.
That is you projecting your own preferences onto the format. The inconcistency of highlander formats isn't a goal unto itself, it's a challenge to overcome in as creative a manner as possible. And while the goal of EDH was to be able to play the crazy effects that weren't mana-efficient enough to be played in tournament formats, it by no means requires games to be multi-hour slogs, or that decks need to be shit.
A good decision. The RC's philosophy was designed when the format was just a group of friends and EDH has evolved far past that point (the format even changed its name) and hasn't served the format well in the past several years. WotC and a group of professionals should be in charge of its management.
To be honest, if members of the CAG want to set up a new Rules Committee I'd support it over a Wotc-run Commander. I don't trust Wotc as a company, having seen what they've done to the MTG and DnD players in the past.
Considering the harsh reaction the rc faced initially spilled over to cag members too, I doubt we'll see the cag replace the rc
Agreed wotc can’t be trusted
The RC was consulting WotC on these bans a year ago. They were a fifth column to begin with, WotC was already in control.
I don’t like the rules committee at all. I think their ban decisions are arbitrary and for the most part not good.
Why would anyone want to subject themselves to death threats if they stepped "slightly out of line"?
IDK man, WOTC choosing the health of a format over making money printing broken cards just doesn't seem likely at all...
So true, this is the worst news
'if you put dockside into a precon' lmaooo dockside is FROM a precon
that’s probably the joke
Its not even a joke, he making a point, dockside did come from a precon but its really powerful, but it alone did not raise the power level of the precon
Just double checked it came from a 2019 red, white, and blue deck.
It definitely is better to have an independent RC and not have them be apart of wotc
WOTC controls every other format, I personally like these changes
@@deckdriverMTGI don’t like it but my opinion didn’t matter as much as all the salty children that went feral over the recent bans.
@@deckdriverMTGand every other format is noticeably less popular and more homogenized than Commander, not a coincidence
They never were Independent.. imagine the would have banned those cards two years ago - Ixalan and MH3 would have been dead = multimillion dollar damage
@@deckdriverMTG lets see a few years from now
I've got a bad feeling about this...
I would rather take anything else than WOTC taking over. Them officially managing the format is my signal to start preparing to get out, I've seen what they do when they have control and I'm purely not interested in anything they have come up with.
The best thing for the RC to have done was what I was telling everyone at the first commander product when they were putting sol ring in all the decks. As much as I like some of the precon commanders, the best thing to have done was to make the statement banning all Commander product. If Wizards wants to have commander, let them have Commander. But let it not be EDH. It would have sent a message quickly enough and EDH was originally just a variant format made by some dudes anyway. Keeping them clearly separate from the start would have been the way to go.
These bannings were the death-knell for me. WOTC is going to learn that this is an unsanctioned format. I fully intend to proxy anything over $15. I probably spend about $4k a year on magic. That's about to change significantly.
The fact that the RC had one single bad(entirely subjective and debatable) ban and you think that its a good argument to say that WoTC is a better option is wild. WoTC which has had multiple ban fumbles and recently kept The One Ring unbanned in modern. Horrible take, the RC is and will be way better than anything WoTC could come up with, and the new power ranking was something the RC was involved with too, so there goes that arguement.
This seems terrible. I think it’s the beginning of the end. Having a concrete power level scaling is good. But this sounds tedious and you NEED to either give a decklist or have a rule zero-type discussion anyways so this solves nothing so far. A solid ban list would just solve everything. The less fast mana, the more even precon level decks can compete with the higher tiers just because the ceiling moves closer to the floor.
A "solid ban list" would compress the format alright, but this compression is, in part, what's keeping every other format from coming even close to commander in popularity. Variation is the spice of life, and arguably the lifeblood of commander. If you don't have that, you commander will decline.
What's more, it doesn't work if it doesn't account for experience. A precon is a 1 in the hands of a beginner, but it can be much higher in the hands of a seasoned player. Compressing the format just forces these two groups together even more, which also will lead to the same problems that tournament formats have - They are decidedly not newb-friendly.
I have decks of all different power levels. If you are playing a precon I have a deck that would be great playing with those decks. If you want to play high power I have a deck for that also. Why bring the ceiling to the floor??? Sometimes I want to play high power. Sometimes I want to play low power. Why limit players like me??
@@tommieboi707 a) do whatever you want.
B) the problem lies with every one not knowing or agreeing on what power levels are. I have had games where the players agreed to a 7-8 game. The game goes on for 10 turns and someone at the end complains, “oh that was too fast, you guys are playing cEDH.” Like, no lol. Players don’t know jack about jack. Can’t agree on definitions of power levels. I go to play a 5-6 and some guy brings mana crypt and vault saying that “it’s not that good outside of cEDH” despite propelling them to a fast start. Nadu is another one that players just dumped in the 99 of bumbleflower precons. Do you know how incredibly strong that deck gets with Bumbleflower and Nadu out? They’re almost made for each other. Point is, cards may not dictate power level, but they definitely skew it. Especially when they’re incredibly broken. Again. Play what you want, but the majority of newer players don’t understand why Swords to plowshares the most popular and efficient creature removal spell is in the same category of ubiquity as sol ring and can’t see that these cards are outliers compared to most magic cards. They’ll just put in whatever sees the most play.
@@jcstaff1007 so your plan is to just even the playing field by banning all "powerful cards". It doesn't matter if 2 players are playing precons. The more experience player will still pub stomp the new player with a precon. That's why you split up the new players to their own pods. Don't take out powerful cards so I have to pay with new players just to wreck them with precons anyway. Doesn't make sense.
You sound like developer infinity war with their "safe spaces" in modern warfare 2018. Ask everyone how that turned out for the new players/experienced players. Not a very good overall experience for anybody. Instead of trying to lower the ceiling so everyone plays with the same slow cards. Split up the pods into new/precons. Casual/mid power. High power/cedh. It has been working fine at my local lgs for the past 2 years. No one is butt hurt at the end of the night and it makes for an even playing field without having to worry if a card is banned or not.
We have concrete power scaling terms.
Edh has multiple “formats” inside it that describe the power levels
An example:
Cedh 9-10 the most fine tuned.
Battle cruiser 8 8.5, fine tuned decks with synergy that build up to win cons. This is “high powered”.
And there’s other definitions…
The RC wizards and CAG say they didn’t expect the backlash.
But they did its 125million dollars+ in damage that was done to the players.
CAG knew what was happening and Rebel part of CAG had to re-upload their video and change titles because they admitted to helping with the RCs ban list.
The RC admitted to communicating with Wotc on when the reveal the bans so the RCs bans didn’t interfere with wotc sales. (They sold out of festival in a box on the chance for manacrypt and jeweled lotus).
They knew of the backlash… all 3 of these parties acted maliciously towards their player base.
With members like Olivia trying to show some good faith, and trying to reason/plan with their governing body.
The RC did not have to give up its position to wizards, and could have gave it to top8s tournament advisors who have been submitting recommendations.
Instead spitefully they gave the power to wizards and we as players should say “no”.
The spirit of Edh was created by players to be social and we should all get together and self promote ourselves. Keep it a format made by players and reasonable controlled by players.
it is way better to put people that run certain cards on the 3 and 4 tier. Making them have to deal with the same Cards. Rather than argue on if its a 1 and 2.
Rather than everyone not knowing where to go and then sitting down saying "my power is lower. Trust me."
NOW you know where you are supposed to go. And in order to play with others you gotta argue why you should stay. If not. Go to the 3 and 4 side. You now have a DEFINITE way to know where your supposed to be.
Its better than rule 0
Cause you already have a guideline for where you should be. Something that even the banlist has problems doing.
I am in the minority. but i agree. I think this new change to Wizards Controlling Commander just might be a really good decision
Soon after the ban, and at the end of a LONG shift of work, I had a similar idea of tiering cards. To better define power level of decks and to mitigate how much you have to ban as cards can be locked to higher tiers rather than removed from the card pool entirely.
RC's heavy handed and reckless handling of the bans devastated the secondary market at the very least. CEDH seemed to notice a worsening of their side as bigger commanders couldn't keep up with lower cost commanders who could afford to lose the three banned cards.
I agree with your stance on these changes. Although I will remain cautious, WotC taking over seems as though it will diminish some of the unacceptable toxicity the rules comity has faced this past week, with some of that toxicity being directed at the fact that the rules comity is independent from WotC. And hey, if WotC completely fails with this new system, at least we can enjoy our cards in the comfort of our own playgroups (WotC can never take my dockside from me, I'll make sure of it!)
So... Every deck is a 3, eh?
Joke aside: How the hell are they going to account for synergy? It's basically impossible to do mechanically. And bad matchups? And skill level difference? It's patently ridiculous to try to codify these things.
And if, through some sort of infernal intervention, they manage to bring this system together, people who disagree with their rating will just fudge the numbers.
Yeah of course there will be bad actors, but a more standardized approach to overall power level is great for most newer players and most pods out there. There's always going to be exceptions, but we shouldn't NOT change things because of this
@@deckdriverMTG This is true, I'm just wondering how they'll make this not-entirely-arbitrary, and truth be told, I can't see it.
Cards are contextually powerful, in a way that an automated calculator can't take into account: A relevant tutor in a combo deck is very powerful. A relevant tutor in a toolbox deck is less so. Cultivate in the right deck can set a chain of actions into motion that just wins the game outright, while in most decks it's just bog-standard ramp. You see what I'm saying.
I think any attempt to objectively evaluate decks, without having solid and long-going stats on past games played, will be futile and will cause a lot of even worse mismatches if people abide by this system. Queue even more discord in the community.
And as a tangent to that, I'm also worried that now when they have grabbed the reins of the format, there will be an increasing rate of bans of long-time strong cards, and even more egregious designs in new product launches - Effectively instating a rotation on the format. Papa Hasbro won't let Wizards NOT abuse their new-found ownership of the format.
They just dropped an article on how they will do this and it says little to nothing about sinergy
I like the intention to standardize power levels. I disagree with the methodology though. Having one powerful card does not mean your deck is powerful - there is something called synergy 😂
It’s not really the way to look at it. You just know, if you want to build a “2”, you don’t play mana vault. Right? And if you wanna play thoracle you’ll know you need to play it in a higher level deck.
Unless everyone just says “let’s just play commander” by which I mean cedh.. aka.. commander, then you’ll have to find a way to do this. The more complete it is the more complex it is. This seems like a decent way for people to build and categorize their decks. Not perfect. But super clean.
Now as a comp player.. ima break it 😈
😉
Namaste 🖖
@@BudgetPubStomper-lr7nh So what you're saying is that people who get lucky cracking packs shouldn't use their new cardboard, because it would proclude them from effectively competing in the power bracket their deck really is? Sounds a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
@@xxhellspawnedxx If someone opens a powerful card and wants to play it, they can. Most Commander players have multiple decks, and probably have a deck of a matching power 'bracket' that they could put new cards in. The only potential issue I see happening is players opening 4-power cards and not having a high powered deck for them.
@@cylver3593they can always save them for later when they get a deck together for that level. Alternatively they can still play their underpowered deck with those few good cards to tinker and improve their own deck knowledge. If it's a newer player, having them learn the game with a lower tier deck gives them a safer place to get fundamentals learned and practiced for when they decide to play bigger magic. Either way, the powerful cardboard is still playable in some capacity.
@@xxhellspawnedxx I wasn’t really saying anything at all. I was more trying to explain what I think the RC was saying. But honestly, yeah, I think if you are playing against low power decks and you get lucky cracking packs or scoring a job that allows you to buy the best cards you prob shouldn’t jam them against low power decks w players who don’t have access to the same cards?? Idk? The entire thing seems like nonesense to me. I don’t play “casual” commander. I haven’t always played “cedh” because my friends and I used to kinda suck at deck building. But as we got better at it our decks got better and we NEVER never even considered saying to each other “can you not play that against me? It’s too strong for me.” I can’t even imagine. But, yeah, I think having actual rules is a step in the right direction. I don’t think this system is perfect. But I do think it’s better than literally nothing. Probably🤷♂️. Idk. I wouldn’t monkey w any of it. I’d just find a group that wants to take the gloves off. And, if you think “my friends and I can’t afford to build powerful decks”. Take a look at my channel. That’s what I’m here for 🤔
Namaste homie🖖
Good riddance to Commander.
Long live Elder Dragon Highlander.
so basically we have to have a rule zero talk anyway lol
Sounds like California... another rule for rule making sake.
This tier system is for when you're out and about at a locals to play casually or for teaching newer players by building at a lower level. If you're at a higher end local, you can use brackets three or four as though you were at or near CEDH POWER.
Chuds looking to flex their Lotus and Crypt at a casual table will be a thing of the past with this bracket system.
@otterfire4712 this is same conversation we've been having for years. Power systems aren't thats why we know the difference between edh and cedh today. this is just rehashing the same thing over and over.
Pub stomping is going to happen no matter what. Lotus, dockside and Nadu were all new card made with edh in mind. Sound like they need to make less edh specific cards, rather make a new power system for each card. Casual, high-powered, and cedh is supposed to be the spits.
Is a thax deck the same level as nerset l, l if I add a mana crypt?....no its about how you build your deck,just as much as the cards in them. Cedh doesn't automatically edh decks. Match's ups are still important too. Sound like a waste of time to me.
@@64-Palms building for lower brackets shrinks the card pool of usable cards to the more basic cards, which gives newer players a frameworks and lets players with better fundamentals contextualize what makes a good deck by building for lower brackets. Once you get a better understanding of the game, you can get into a wider card pool by climbing the brackets and experiment with deck construction and building more complex decks.
@@64-Palmsthis is the worst reading into a Rystic study what almost every blue deck runs makes your deck higher powered so clue precon for example with one is higher power 😂
This kills commander and it is a sad day. Independent RC can keep broken design space in check, I can say with certainty that if they're out here selling jeweled lotus the same year or the year before the ban of jeweled lotus, wotc would never have banned it. Why would they ever ban cards that they have a secondary market financial incentive on? Disgusted by this.
Kills Commander? C'mon now
High powered decks might not stand a chance against cedh decks, but lower powered decks don't stand a chance against high powered "almost cedh" decks.
Gotta enjoy the convoluted and coorporate language that was used to say "The RC is fired!"
That's great. I've always envisioned 5 tiers. People don't intend for their decks to be bad, unless it's based around a theme or budget. When every deck is a 7, that leaves only 8, 9, and 10 for everything stronger than your typical mid-range value pile. Anyone who has played cedh knows there are a lot of out-dated decks that simply can't be 10s, like Teferi ChainVeil or Prossh Food Chain. So, I've always split them like this: 5- current meta cedh, 4- low tier/old meta/ brewers' corner cedh (fast mana and intentional combo lines), 3- high power, 2- mid power (real 6's and 7's), 1- precons/budget/theme decks.
I have total faith in the wizards game design department to do what’s best for the format and not the corporation paying their checks!/s
Can’t wait for wizards to push even more broken cards lol
a finger curls on the [[wishclaw talisman]]
-slow clap- we saved the format, everyone /s
this is absolutely one of the worst things that could happen to the format, WoTC has been forcing the power level to go up, has showed that they won't ban if that makes them a quick buck and don't care about keeping promises
I cant belive you agree to this, WoC was the responsable for putting this cards at a high price and print them on premium products with a warning a year before. They handdled the only thing that gave players control of the format and you celebrate? Take a look on how the other formats are going, you have no idea how stupid this is.
WOTC has control of every other format. Are they 100% great at controlling these things? No, but I truly believe it's a step in the right direction
Sure look at Yugioh. Expect that power creep now. You'll wish this did not happen.
@@deckdriverMTG why do you think the problem is only format releated? 1000$ proxys wasn't a red flag to you? how about printing 4 versions of mana crypt a year before ban, no? how about send pinkertons after a guy who opened a scam in form of the WORST set of 2023? Seriously Why do you think this is in the """""""right direction""""""?
@@edpaolosalting9116 i quit yugioh because of this and went back to magic because players still held control over the game, now i see they dont have any competence on doing this, at the first problem they go under the wings of WoC for shelter. RC= Ruthless Cowards
The value of a card is simple economics. Supply/demand. We as a consumer put a price on a card when we decided that paying 200 bucks for a mana crypt was worth it. Don't blame wotc for the valuation. Blame the consumer.
standardised power rating is a bit of a chimera I think. I have 25$ decks that combo consistently t5-t6. also one card does not define deck power level if I add a smothering tithe to a precon I will probably win 0.1% more games 😅
I actually thought a lot about making this automated deep scoring of power level, but it is so hard because the core power level of power level is the interaction between the 100 components of your deck
So for me the perfect ranking would be to make an AI that can predict the win rate of each deck in a pod before the game plays 🤣
Yeah I've built a ton of cheaper decks that still can win super fast and very expensive decks that don't win as consistently. Price is definitely not a factor for consistency
@@jean-baptistedelabroise5391 The closest thing we can get to an accurate ranking is win percentage. But then you run into the experience barrier.
Many people are really bad at handling quirky decks. I have a whole book case full of commander decks, all over the power scale and covering nearly every archetype (except Eldrazi, fuck Eldrazi), and the ones with the highest win percentages are the ones that are weird and do unexpected things.
I'd love to see the power level brackets pan out.
And I'm glad WOTC is in charge, since cards and money is on the line
I sort of have this system set up for myself, it started of like Canadian Highlander where I could only run a certain number of powerful cards in each deck, maybe 1 - 3, but now all of those cards are on a separate personal ban list of mine, and I actually have a separate deck to play those cards together.
Congratulations to the weirdos who sent the RC threats. You made the game worse and your cards still might not get unbanned.
Wotc should not unban those cards, people who make threats and harass others should not be rewarded
I wonder if with their brackets they have some exception for "cards that dont belong in bracket 1" if they included in the precon itself. If they dont, they either 1) wont be able to reprint things like jeska's will in precons or 2) wont put jeska's will in the list of higher bracket cards.
So commander will split into 4 different formats based on power level? That's awful.
But it's NOT 4 different formats. It's an overall guideline to give people an idea of where their deck is power wise and what kind of cards push it towards that. So when they sit down at a table, they can actually give a better description of their deck and help the other players realize what they are potentially dealing with.
So when people sit down and Rule 0, they can have a better discussion and it's easier to get on same page.
I disagree that its a good thing that it is completly controlled by wotc. They have an insentive to make money and this often comes at the cost of the format and the players money. Obviously I am not saying they arent allowed to make money but it creates a conflict of interest that I would have liked to be avoided.
It would be just easier to assign each card to a cluster: 0 to 4.
E.g. Sol Ring = 4 , Basic Lands = 0.
Then make the 'power level' of the deck the average score of the deck, adjusted by a sinergy/commander factor. Each commander would get a rank E to A. E.g. a commander like Winota, Joiner of Forces would have a rank of A.
Then make brackets based on the ranges:
0 - 1 Tier 1
1 - 2 Tier 2
2 - 3 Tier 3
3 - 4 Tier 4
So you could say: I am playing a D4 level. Which means that the commander is low power but the cards are very powerful.
That bracket shit came so quickly that i'd not be suprised if WoTC/Pinkertons were behind the threats towards RC. It's all now gonna dive steeply so RIP EDH. No firm is gonna keep the philosophy which basically was the soul of commander - the thing that made it all so special.
Super agree with this ideal, only thing i would divide hyper optimized from cedh like adding a 5 cause cedh is much much different from opt
I hear you. But you will see.
There is no way to rank things properly. Many have tried. Not even the greatest games can come close. And if they did. The game would not be fun.
Interesting to have a rating for cards BUT the ratings have to be dynamic because of power creep
What's more, they have to be context-sensistive, which makes the variance in the system nigh-on endless, and impossible to map accurately.
"Card A is a 1, except in combination with card B, then it's a 2, and if you mix cards C, D or E into the composition, it's a hard 4, but only if your opponents don't run X amount of enchantment removal, then it's a 3." and on an on.
@@xxhellspawnedxx yeah we can build strooong decks with jank, like Anje falkenrath can combo easily with a deck full of shitty madness
Power level should be the other way around. Like 1 is the best, 5 is a precon, 20 is a treasure hunt deck
My only issue w/ the tier idea is having to vocalize every little thing. For instance, I have Thassa's Oracle in my upgraded Merfolk precon with art-based restrictions. Literally a value Thoracle, which I can't tutor for and likely won't draw. Plus, since I don't play Hakbal very often, will I be penalized somehow for forgetting to mention it?
i think it'll probably end up like:
Tier 1: Precons and fun goofy or gimmicky decks
Tier 2: Standard casual decks
Tier 3: High Power decks
Tier 4: cEDH
And a big L to the RC ceeding the format to Wizards. They'll use this control at every turn to force people to buy more sealed product, you just wait and see.
Big L to the thousands of cry baby commander players who sent death threats to the individuals on the RC for banning their piece of cardboard
@@PokemonWalkthroughDS What does that have to do with anything I said?
The death threats were the last straw.
The whiners ruined everything. Now I have to expect everything will be Yugioh of power creep now.
Damn tryhards and their fast mana and their money...
@@xxhellspawnedxx they RC gave up oversight of the format because the death threats were getting out of control and they (fairly!) deemed that it wasn't worth the elongated personal harassment
@@PokemonWalkthroughDS Absolutely, but selling out the rest of us to the people who created the issues to begin with is like, the textbook definition of taking the stupidest course of action.
I'm hesitant to call the ranking system a better way to move the format atm, while 1-2 cards can certainly win a game in a lower powered deck im sure there's going to be synnergy pieces that only exist in tiers because of their prelevance in certain combos.
Oracle is a fine card if used as some alt-win in a self-mill deck should the game go on for ~15 turns, but I guarantee it'll be tier 4 because of its ability to be exploited. I hope, like was mentioned, that they don't try and force a concrete "this card is a 4" and take a more holistic approach to the deck like separating based on wincons or potential combos.
It is good to see they didn't just default to trying to force a banlist on the format, because honestly that would have personally been a quit moment then and there.
The RC were essentially if not entirely wizards employees already. 2 streamers who get sponsored at various times by WOTC and 3 judges. Its silly to act otherwise
People won't give accurate ratings though. Almost all decks are just going to be "It's a 4 with X cards, but otherwise it's a 2 or 3." No one is likely to say their deck is a 1, no one is likely to say their entire deck is a 4. It'll be the same problem with the 1-10 scale.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that WotC is trying to give us some kind of standard, but there's not really a way to quantify synergy in a deck and I've found that synergy and interaction are usually what determines a deck's strength more than anything else.
Also I hope those four cards stay banned as a middle finger to everyone who sent death threats.
Yeah. Synergy, Resilience and Stopping power is where it's at, and those can't just be reduced down into a number. It's also not about the cards themselves, as much as it is about how you use them, i.e. Experience.
Interesting but strange methodology from WOTC. In what bracket would they put a Sol Ring?
Grading every card and taking the average is a much better approach.
This might be a tipping point for the commander playerbase. Or might not.
But I severely dislike no second entity (besides rule 0) of banning cash-cow-cards.
I hope the tier doesn't take into account CEDH, I'd rather that just be it's own thing rather than have 3 tiers and CEDH.
It's an interesting idea, it reminds me of Smogon Pokemon tier list.
Consolidation of power is rarely good for everyone else... WOTC being in control of which cards are printed AND which cards are legal is dangerous when they stand to make a profit if they manipulate those decisions at the expense of a healthy meta
So am confused what deck better than precon but not CEDH
I honestly think this is a great. They could remove the ban list all together and just have the bracket system. No need to ban anything.
Now this is a decent idea. But I would go further than that: Just transfer every card on the "banned list", barring Ante cards, Shaharezad and the like, into the new "Needs to be discussed before the game" list. Let's call it a "Consent List" to have short, snappy and descriptive name that avoids the mouthful of the previously mentioned name name.
They should clearly differentiate between casual and cedh. the brackets are obviously no ment to be hard categories but a guideline to judge your deck's powerlevel yourself and make it easier to communicate to your play group what your deck can do.
One of the biggest problems is that almost every Mono Black deck uses a lot of cards for some consistency and ramping. Coffers, Demonic, Vampric, Necro, Toxic deluge couldn't think of some more of the cards but a lot of consistency is what Mono Black does.
@@mageius yeah, they need to adress this. Maybe by ranking mono colored decks lower by default. This is obviously still problematic. Also certain commanders should by default increase the rating. Like is there a fun way to build tergrid?
@fidibus4290 The problem is there's some Mono and 2 color decks that are quite powerful. But I also always tend to be able to swap out my commander with another legendary in the 99 to make something interesting deck wise. Personally I just usually just go with the idea that if you're playing against X colors, there's a chance I might see this synergy or combo because it helps that player possibly stabilize or buy time.
cEDH needs to differentiate itself. Its not an "official" format. I hate how everyone just expects the RC to manage cEDH when they aren't even involved. If cEDH needs its own banlist, then cEDH tourney managers need to do that.
if there wouldn't be a tier level i would disagree. But with these new tiers, which i am all for (so don't have to play against someone "innocently" playing armagedon again) i think its all good. And wizards can print all the broken cards it wants, as long as they go to tier 4. I do not think we need the exact values you mentioned though. And I will continue to make tier 1 decks to compete against tier 3 decks.
I definitely seem to be part of the online minority in that I am a fan of this type of bracketing. I agree with your points and It obviously won’t be perfect but it seems much better than a vague 1-10 power scale that’s ultimately left up to the pilot’s opinion of their deck.
Of course I’m biased because I play with people who like to downplay their decks but with the bracketing there are less excuses for the type of interaction after someone throws a deadly rollick or meathook massacre my way.
I feel like this could incentivize better/more responsible deck building. If you want to be able to say your deck falls into bracket 3 or 2 but it currently has many bracket 4 staples, then you’ll need to find actual synergistic or creative pieces to replace those - which could make the deck even better than before!
And I like the idea of having the conversation of “I have one or two bracket 4 cards for my themed deck but everything else is a 3-2” much easier to digest instead of, “It’s probably a 6/7” and then they pull out a bunch of bracket 4 cards that weren’t disclosed.
For the brackets i say it should be 1-5 with 5 being cEDH
You can play a different decks against each other... two 1's and two 2's for example.
I would love for these changes to be put into moxfield
So we dont need a vauge if you have x it bumps you up to Y banned and problem cards need points so you can say i have X points so you can find like or simalar powerlevels. Like my cat deck is 5 points cause of my savanah manacrypt ancient tomb and fetches ect. But its a cat tribal deck, and my prosper would probably be like a 30 cause its strongest deck with alot of good cards.
Honestly wotc taking full control is the worst posible outcome. This Will be a profit comes first aproach and they can be Even more trigger happy with bans now.
Can create Level 5 like vintage type commander. Power 9s can be used 😂
WOTC is so bad, it is giving Games Workshop a run for the top BS in the table top gaming space.....
Say good bye to having a face or individuals to be able to communicate with on a more personal level (the RC discord was one example and other well known cag members). Now if you get upset you'll be facing a faceless corporate entity.
I hate to say it, but the idea of powerful cards not helping a lower powered deck just isn't accurate in my opinion that is.
Good example, about 12 years ago I had a original Olivia Vampire themed deck. Now of course I'm going to run some of the staples for the Black and Red alongside some more generic cards. But considering a lot of the creatures were Vampires alongside a few other effects to take advantage of things it actually WOULD be using the more consistency pieces because Black and Red are designed to use those types of effects.
Nah, I just don't agree on this one. The RC definitely made a mistake in the rollout of this latest ban announcement, but to imply they're inexperienced about the game is pretty offbase. These people live and breathe commander (and probably play much more of it than anyone at WotC). And the RC has been teasing this power level bracket system for months now, so it's not like Wizards came up with this amazing plan on the spot.
Wizards having the keys to the format is potential really dangerous to the health of commander. I'd be a little more cautious about your excitement for this change.
Jl and mc being unbanned would be a huge loss of positive momentum
Not since I gave my "unplayable" Jeweled Lotus to my 3 year old grandson...
It's now unrecognizable.
They should not unban any of these cards, threats and harassment should not be rewarded they should stay banned as a principle against bullies.
Do you really think that comitees are not influenced by WotC? (A multibillion Dollar company)
wotc being in charge of commander is the worst thing to every happen lmaooo and power levels are the worst idea the community has ever cooked up
Commander is really three overlapping formats, distinguished by card selection:
* Casual Commander - No: stax, infinite loops, land destruction. Budget-friendly, no proxies.
* Pay-to-Win Commander - Casual plus pay-to-win cards > $25. Proxies require permission.
* Competitive EDH (cEDH) - Play-to-win, nothing legal excluded. Proxies taken for granted.
Prominent promoters of Pay-to-Win Commander are WotC, online card dealers, and corporate-sponsored UA-camrs.
Here is a translation of WotC's proposed four brackets of Commander power level"
Bracket 1: cards < $10
Bracket 2: cards up to $10 - $20
Bracket 3: cards up to $20 - $100
Bracket 4: cards > $100
Where does well-sculpted synergy piles of cheap'ish cards that still win more games than they lose fit into this system? Money isn't the be-all, end-all of power levels. I have 25 dollar decks that, on average, would slap the shit out of most mid-power decks.
@@xxhellspawnedxx Exactly, you're talking about casual Commander, a budget-friendly game built on synergy rather than pay-to-win power.
@@QuicksilverSG Most pubstomping and power mismatches I've seen have been due to highly synergistic and not overly money'd and powered decks going up against jank piles. Or, in other words, your logic doesn't logic.
@@xxhellspawnedxxPreach. In addition his money based logic makes even less sense because I can just proxy cards.
This is gonna destroy the game, they will print worse and worse chase cards and do NOTHING to cultivate the origial nature of the format. You're ODing on copium
This is dumb. The format isn’t balanced. It’s political.
It is. it isn’t balanced and it was fine. Of course it is, they have their golden goose in the hands of 5 unpayed nerds.
I hope they will unbanned, Nadu, jeweled lotus, mana crypt and dockside. In that order. Bann Nadu haven't sense. In casual is oppressive, us other like magda, kinan etc. But in cedh, where all these cards shoul be played and only there, is only a good commander. It isn't the best either second either third. It take same or less time as kark sakasima or big etali with clons...
The reality is that it is not only cEDH where these cards get played. The vast outcry and complaints from the average userbase should be evidence of this. Many EDH players are lazy and just slot Mana Crypt in every deck, then play those decks at casual tables.
@@th3summoner I never have seen those cards in casual pods. If you do, you have to expelled these people of your table, it easy. With the new 4 brackets will be more easy to know who is cheating. But banning you don get nothing, the people who want to cheat could do using commanders as Magda or kinnan who could win in turn 3 with a 100$ deck
They shouldnt unban anything banned monday
i support wotc controlling the commander format because i don’t think a cabal of random people who happen to have played the game for a long time should have executive control over how people play.
the bottom line is that the company that makes the card game should manage it. if wotc is responsible for both designing and managing commander, this will likely also result in less ‘designed for commander’ cards that ruin both commander and other constructed formats.
hopefully these changes standardize the commander format and abolish the more obnoxious casual maladies like ‘rule zero’ and turns commander into a real format.
The company that makes the game should manage it. However, what happened was that EDH was made with the intent to slow down the game and increase variance. Then WOTC saw money, got involved, and printed black lotus for the format among other things.
So this was made because of a failure of WOTC to deliver what the people wanted, sufficiently so that WOTC recognized the format. Then they decided to monetize it and put stuff in that had no business being there that went against the spirit of the format. And you think them taking over is going to result in less designed for commander stuff? From the people who already decided that it was a good idea to print Black Lotus specifically for the format? The RC had no power over making cards. So every card that you're saying ruins the format was made by the people you're saying you're glad to see take over. Something that happened specifically after they started putting their mits on it intentionally.
You'd rather have a faceless corporation behind the wheel, where you'll have no avenue to criticize the decision makers directly? Aight.
And look at all that money changing hands again as all three cards pop in value. Inside scoop they are going to be unbanning things? Good riddance to the RC I say.
Commander was created to be an inconsistent and janky format with longer games.
If you want games to last less than 8 turns…then don’t play commander.
What does this have to do with the video?
@@deckdriverMTG I feel this RC thing was all done as a step towards making changes to bring back any business and players that left after the recent rules change.
I loved the recent bans. Want more bans. And don’t want to see “power levels” introduced as a reason to unban cards.
In the end commander is a community format and has evolved way beyond what it used to be (not even to mention the power creep since its birth).
Just because you like games that go over 8+ turns, doesn't mean that this is the experience other players are looking forward to, so don't tell people what to do. What matters most at the end of the day, is that you communicate openly with your playgroup (or random players at LGSs) how fast your deck is and how it wins (combat, burn / ping, combo, sudden I win cards, no real win con, etc.)
@@D4rkRitu4l your right. Commander has evolved from what it used to be. And the recent bans were a way to “undo” the power creep and competitive nature players and WOTC have brought into the game.
In the end…if players want to play an mtg game that wins on turn 4 with all competitive decks using the same 20 overpriced and overpowered cards…then just play legacy. Don’t ruin commander.
That is you projecting your own preferences onto the format. The inconcistency of highlander formats isn't a goal unto itself, it's a challenge to overcome in as creative a manner as possible.
And while the goal of EDH was to be able to play the crazy effects that weren't mana-efficient enough to be played in tournament formats, it by no means requires games to be multi-hour slogs, or that decks need to be shit.
A good decision. The RC's philosophy was designed when the format was just a group of friends and EDH has evolved far past that point (the format even changed its name) and hasn't served the format well in the past several years. WotC and a group of professionals should be in charge of its management.
No its not
It will always be EDH to me not Commander