The Truth About Widening Your Mixes And The 1 Way To Bring Out The Best In Them
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2023
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In this episode of MakeMineMusic, Marc Daniel Nelson dives in deep about the effects of going too far with widening and the damage it could cause more than good. Watch as he approaches widening mixes in a more focused manner which in turn brings out the best in his mixes.
Happy Mixing!
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Marc Daniel Nelson is a Grammy and French Academy Award nominated mixing engineer, music producer and creative director. He has been mixing, producing and managing creative content for over 20 years.
His Music Credits include Fleetwood Mac, Joni Mitchell, Colbie Caillat, Jason Mraz, Need to Breathe, Eric Burdon / Ben Harper, John Fogerty, Robert Duvall, Ozomatli, Reik and more. As Protégé for both legendary producer / engineer Bill Schnee and Ken Caillat, Marc has carried the torch for impeccable quality sound and production.
His film credits include Solo, Blade Runner 2049, The Vietnam War, Mulan, The Expanse, Wild Horses, Point Break, No Manches Frida, Fractured, Amanda, Father Figures, Ya, Ty, Vin, Vona and more.
His creative management credits include executive producing the 13 episode PBS television series, creating and executive producing the national video campaign for Guitar Center and creative directing for Alcon Sleeping Giant, ArtistMax and Warner Chappell.
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What are your favourite plugins for creating clarity in a mix?
Wider by Polyverse!
Exactly correct and well done (again!) Monsieur Nelson; use wideners only on select busses, and don't forget to use "mono-makers" to keep the lows in the center *if needed* on those busses. .Atmos /immersive is changing these needs because a cluttered stereo mix isn't as much of a factor. But, yes, create busses for any objects that need widening and use a variety of tools that fit those needs. Egad, man, you've bloody done it again! Brilliant, mate! (that last part was for Warren)
I honestly don't even prefer to use Ozone all that much, but the standalone Imager plugin works better than anything I've ever tried. I also think Output's Thermal can subtly widen vocals or bass in interesting ways!
EQ lol
This may sound a bit counterintuitive, but reverb and compression are very important for clarity and depth as they deal with the psychoacoustic side of things. Volume levels comes first of course. And Pan actually is a level of R/L channels.
Love Marc, have all of his courses. His passion is contagious. Elegant dude, really embodies the best of the craft. Thanks mark!
Couldn't agree more!
Mark is my favourite in the internet. I love watch him.
Thanks so much for stopping by
Mark i know im a 59 exmillitary 310lb man but I love you from the bottom of my heart ❤.
Preach it! For me, bass guitar, drums, primary/main vocals never receive widening. I often create a "wide" buss then automate the widening plugin to bypass at verses then widen out at the chorus or bridge to add excitment.
Thanks ever so much of sharing!
Love his work. Glad he is part of the team.
Marc Daniel Nelson is my hero
Glad you enjoyed! Thanks for stopping by
I will forever love Marc and his expertise
Very relevant points. Studying your stereo field in the interest of finding appropriate things to widen, ultimately creates space and depth in many respect to the other elements in the field
Man, You save my life with this episode. Important!!
Marvellous!!
Great video. Never considered widening keys, and it makes so much sense.
Just found your channel... Just wow. My plan is to retire early and then make music for a living, just like you 😊 You're very inspiring.
love your width rant and discussions! call me old fashioned but I can still dig a mono mix, so when I have synth pads or elements to throw wide it's always like "whoa", man
Thanks for the tip Mark!
Mark always brings the Class to a mix!
That was golden.. thank You!
Thank you, that was a huge help!
Thanks ever so much!
Really fan of Marc, really touched and connected with all his advices 🤘
Thanks for watching
I take a bit of an inverse pyramid approach ie. No widening on bass or centered instruments, and a widening group for anything else. Fx channels included.
Thanks for sharing!
One day I will be like you!
Awesome, been working hard to get this right
Bandjour back, dood, bandjor!
Great topic Marc, thanks very much
AGREED. Nice tune too ,,
Thanks for sharing. Download the multitracks in the description and enjoy mixing them yourself
Thanks Marc! this is the way to approach the wide mix I believe 2.
Guilty, your honour! I'll pay more attention to my centre image in future.
Have fun! And thanks for watching
11:15 to 11:26 with background song 🤟
8 pm on 8/6/23
So glad you mentioned Will Ferguson. I’ve always been partial to his work, as well as yours.
my fav dude for tips, tricks and ideas that I can actually try out.. thank you Marc. Appreciate your time.
Great job Marc Daniel! Love your work
Thanks for watching!
Sage advice and cool song! Cheers!
I really love the way you advice us . Thank you.
Thanks for watching!
Gorgeous!
I'll sometimes put a very subtle widener on my mix. I like the "Gentle Width" preset in Ozone's Imager. But half the time, I end up taking it off. It sounds appealing and exciting at first because when you push stuff out of the center there seems to be more "space" in the mix. But in the end, like you said, it ends up feeling hollow.
Thanks ever so much for sharing!
wow, I know what I'm doing tonight! Thanks Marc for everything you do for us. You rock man👍
Enjoy!
Great demonstration and thank you for emphasizing this topic again. I personally stoped discussing with people "putting that magic stereowidener" on the 2bus.
Thanks for watching
I just applied this to my strings and organ buses on a tune I just happen to be working on and it does seem to widen other elements of the mix as well. Synchronicity a beautiful but rare thing! I'll see what I think again tomorrow or the next day. I often try new things only to go back to what I had before but somehow I think this could fly. It's a great tip to add to the arsenal. Thanks you Marc!
That's fantastic! Glad this helped you out in the moment you needed it
Another video about stereo widening? I thought I'd seen and heard it all and understood all aspects.
Apparently not.
Thanks for those insights Mark. I put them to work right away with great results.
Never think you know it all. There are always more subtleties and refinements to learn and implement.
what a great phrase: psychocoustically...very noteworthy video, once again, from my all-time favorite engineer, Marc Daniel Nelson
Very important topic. We need to listen, listen, listen. I've used widener in various forms and have ended taking it off, because it really messes up some mixes.
Excellent tutorial on widening.
I found out recently I overdid my widening within my Melda MDelayMB/Relab LX480 Essentials vocal plate/Melda MReverbMB effect send. Within each of my Melda plug-ins here, each band other than the lows were being widened about 120%. The low band in every instance was set to mono.
I had to realize this was the source of my phase issue. Solution? Back off the widen setting to about 70% - 85% max. Lesser amounts in mid lows and going up some for higher bands. Hmm it's fixed the phase issue, it isn't super busy on the Melda stereo phase metering.
Signed mad scientist mixer guy, taking mono tracks and making sort of stereo. A great day, y'all.
I never use widening tools on the mix bus. If I do widen something, I will generally replicate the channel, pan them opposite, and then use a tool like MicroShift (or Studio One’s time shift features) to differentiate the sides
Great point!
Essentially a haas delay
Great video, thanks so much!
Thanks for watching
I personally don’t understand widening on a whole mix. Mix can sound wide when there’s some contrast - just as something can only sound loud when there’s something quieter, this applies to wide and narrow. If we make everything wider then in context of a song nothing becomes wider.
It would be much more effective if some parts joined the mix at some point and make sound wider - that’s an event, that can be a wow moment. Widening on a mix is just softening and a weaker center. That can be good sometimes, maybe.
One nice way to make something wider is to put saturation on some instrument or on a bus and set it to saturate only side. Side could sound richer and a little louder, but center image will stay the same. GSat+ is great for that.
Excellent help - thanks Mark!
Thanks ever so much!
Mixing a song now. Not happy at all. I was questioning my use of the wide effect on the mastering process. I am not going back to re-investigate. Thank you!
Good luck!
Thank you for the video, i do love a widener, but only when its working for the whole mix...
Thanks sl much mark
I love those plantation shutters
very useful - thanks for sharing
MDN! Another master class!
Your observations are so helpful and informative! Thank you… 😎
Great Vid!!!
I’ve been struggling with just this thing. I have a fusion and i was overdoing the wideness, I think really because it was really expensive and I really hoped it was was just a make things better box. Got some feedback on mixes sounding weird, which of course they were! I love this technique of looking at specific things that don’t have a super present centre. Thanks Mark, always a worthwhile lesson
This is so important been wrestling with this idea for a very long time now thanks
This is really helpful. Whenever I've tried the Ozone stereo imaging module when mastering I always ended up turning it off because it made things sound weird. Will now try it on a few tracks in the mix instead.
Very interesting 👍🏼
I use the Microshift from Soundtoys to make things wider.
Every now and then, I dig through my collection of VSTs that exist to spruce up the mix. Stuff like stereo imaging enhancers, multiband compressors, aural exciters, etc. I'll lay it on the master bus and try out a few presets. Sometimes, the effect is considerable and has that surreal vibrance to it. Then, I'll bypass the effect and listen to the plain mix.
When I get to the second part (bypass), and after hearing the sugar-coated version, I think, "huh, I think I prefer it without" -- then I know I've gotten the mix about right. 👍
I use a free version of ozone and I really tried to get the widener to work, but i allways seemed to fail on lead vocals. I didnt understand what was going on until i watched this tutorial. Thanks! Now I use imager in cubase on group tracks, mostly instruments, and it seem to open up the mix or separate stuff so there is more room for all the elements in the mix.
A fellow I would totally chat with for hours if I ever got the chance. Or honestly, just listen to
Valuable information. The phasing thing that occurs in the center as you slightly move your head, drives me nuts! I would always prefern to go in the mix and repair whatever needs it, rather than fix it in the stereo bus stage. Thanks for giving us a real life example.
Great insight, Marc. I've been using slight widening on Mix Bus with PA's Brainworx 2098 EQ or PA's Black Box Analog Design HG-2MS. Try to keep widening under 120%. Usually around 117%. I like your approach of hitting certain instruments with slight widening instead of the whole mix. I'll give that a try. Thank you for your time on this :)
When the effect becomes noticeable, it’s probably too much. The pan knob still works wonders.
This was an excellent video. I subtly use stero widening as Marc described as a little goes a long way. I discovered through trial and error, for me it is a no go on the 2 bus. If you want a wide mix use LCR mixing as Warren has often suggested. It works wonders. Cheers from the United States.
I never wide the mix bus, just thew guitat bus or percussion bus a little.
There was no talk about Ozone Imager's multiband possibilities, helps a lot to wide just a single band in bus.
Seems to me that MSED would fit the bill and maybe even do a little better than Ozone. Not an extreme setting, but maybe 3.00+ on the Side gain? Then of course, use differentiated tracks like your synth & organ or in my case an acoustic guitar tracked on 4 channels: 2 Condensers, 1 Dynamic, one DI. Use your pan pots and maybe add an effect on one side and/or reverse polarity? Just some thoughts?
great point! also doesnt the mastering guy use widening as a main tool sometimes?... if you widen in the mix, it takes this option away from mastering..
Same argument I had. It doesn't make any sense slapping a widener effect on the entire mix knowing theres mono elements that are gonna get affected. Leave mono be mono ...play with the stuff can be enhanced by this effect makes more sense. Great video like always
best way to do widening is move the speakers further apart.
ha! And how does that translate to other playback systems? :D
@@Producelikeapro just fine :D - I'm pretty anti-wideners apart from when you are in control of the playback system. For live sound wideners can be amazing.
@@higltypig On a really big sound system, the system is mono anyway. The further apart the speakers go, the less the listener can hear the differences between speakers.
@@Positive_Tea good point. I'm sure the delays would mess with the phase-trickery anyway on a large system.
To me its like a "rule" of landscape photography/art. Its one thing having a huge vista, but you need the foreground and lines leading to the distance to give a sense of scale. The centre makes things bigger and more 3d its not more width=more depth.
And would say that Ozone Imager exists as a 2bus plugin because they designed from a principle of "we don't have a mix to adjust"...if you do then you prob only need ozone's comp, eq, limiter, maybe not even that. It does alright job though because you can e.g. widen 200hz up using the xover. Never liked "stereoizer" being on though or any haas stuff. I think the principle you have here could also be used with eq, compression and saturation most the time with an ideal of mix-buss or master having to apply as little as possible (except a little glue maybe) (and of course have a drum buss or group lead instruments etc. If necessary but why add master bass eq instead of treating just bass or why add master "air" if you're in a situation that add vocal essing but would help your cymbals
While I agree, some of what you're complaining about can be addressed using the multi-band nature of the ozone imager, for example narrowing the low end vs the rest of the mix.
great great video - does anyone know what mixer Marc uses?
thank you. - keep up the great work
Interesting and instructive video, as usual, but I was surprised you didn't use the multi-band feature of Ozone's imager to widen just one or more specific frequency bands. It makes a tremendous difference from using a single band. Plus, for choruses automation to expand the stereo width of a specific band (gently) can be a great mixing tool.
I swear those slam metal albums they put a widener on the bass
When I get from this is that when you widen everything you are actually widening nothing because you have eliminated your point of reference. You are just pushing everything to the sides and leaving the center hollow. That is not widening. And you are losing depth.
Love all of Marc's PLAP tutorials. I have a question for those who use widening/M-S techniques on a mix ... where in your mix chain would the M-S/widening plugin be used most effectively (if one is subtly widening the whole mix). What comes before, and what comes after, in your opinions. Thanks to all herein. (y)
Marc, you in a different place? i dont see the blue gray curtains...
I really struggle with how to pan my stereo buss. Do I keep it dead centre or move each side out? In my DAW (Ableton) you can separate the stereo spread to a Max of 50. I usually keep it about 22 per side but this is just me guessing tbh.
Along these lines... Mid-side processing.
Yes! Thanks for sharing
Before watching I feel like wider mixes are a result of production more so than mixing
Nice to hear that there still are some normal people out there, there is no reason for using these silly tools that have been in the hype for quite some time now otherwise than destroying the stereofield and center, you create a perfect mix old-school of course think mastering for vinyl, I never use mid-side processing either why should I ;-)
If I don't feel my mix is wide enough, I eliminate the reverbs and delays and start again, but I am a hobbyist, so what do I know.
(:
That's an excellent point! There is no harm is starting again and building up. Thanks for sharing
My feeling about this issue it there's no enjoyable width without some narrowness. If you make a hole this is to put something in it, something which needs to be there. And obviously these artistical choices have to have a sens. And it's also dependent of the style of the piece. Rock & roll "in your face", symphonic orchestral, slow ambiant, chamber music, etc... Different approaches.
Beside that I've the feeling that the new "atmos" trend will not have a good effect on this issue. More an more holes and less and less definition, singers all over the place, snares lost in space, etc... I hope I'm wrong
How do you feel about Multiband imaging in Ozone Imager? Would love to know your thoughts (not sure if MB is the right term to use there)
Wait im soo confused.. if ur doing compression eq widening on the mix buss then why master it ?
A master is much more than the “2 track processing” stage. It’s typically a second opinion where every little movement has the intent of finishing the product - getting every single possible aspect of balance and energy as right as possible. If this process is being done by the mixer, then it should simply be done after a certain amount of time has passed, with a different monitoring source, or both.
Thanks for sharing!
Bonjour Marc, comment vas tu ?
Never found a need for a widener.
When did wideners get invented? On what genres are really unnecessary?
Maybe, just a thought, those weird things you're hearing in the mixes, is the Atmos mix downs.
Wider mixes are harder to do. If the song does not need to go wider take it as a blessing because your work will be easier. I'm working on a huge wide mix right now and it's a monster, wouldn't even do it if it didn't call for it.
I personally have no idea why someone would need to widen their mix with an imager. Is having really exaggerated width replacing the loudness war now? What next...
Some basic ideas about panning seem strangely not included here...
Too much widening = The Wide Mono😂
Seems to me people lean to hard into whatever thing is the thing at the time.
:)
Width enhancers are the perfect proof of lazy productions where everything "has to be stereo" and no one has time to record two proper takes. Another greaet missunderstanding of production.
Lucky for us Stageone 2 by Leapwing is helping a lot to control this.
auto tune on vocals makes this mix unlistenable.
NEVER use widening on the master bus. NEVER.