((I'm not responding to anymore people, too busy)) Among some of the triple A games that just seem more self-absorbed with putting money into graphics and not their gameplay, It really feels like Koei is very focused on delivering a fun experience with a lot of depth, especially with the awesome amount of chained techniques that happened at 8:16
Normally I'd praise them for this but after DW 9 which was a let down they needed to re earn the trust of the player base so far I'd say they are succeeding
@@ShadowBoss99 RIGHT!? I am STILL somehow cautious because of DW9. But, I can at least match the gameplay to how it works in terms of controls. So, I know at least gameplay wise, we have back a more classic musou style...and I'm glad Duels from DW4 are back.
DW games spands over for more than 20 years. And I was there from the beginning in 2000. I'm a big fan and I can say FINALLY they're learning from their mistakes and listening to the fans. They're bringing back the classic DW and making it better. I've waited so long for this 🥹
@@uso_Jus2SmooTh94 Quite true. I am a fan who went in reverse and came to the opinion that Classic DW is better. I started with DW6 empires at a friend's place, then played Strikeforce and never realized that was all part of the DW6 gameplay. Then I tried Warriors Orochi 1 on psp and was like, oh damn this is cool, then I played Orochi 3 (since I still wasn't sure about DW or SW), and after that, I ended up getting DW7 empires, SW4, then hyrule warriors...annnd then I went in complete revere, trying DW5, 4, 3, 2, and same for Samurai Warriors. There's something so fun and engaging about the classic PS2 titles compared to even DW8, though I will say, Samurai Warriors has managed to stay interesting with each game for me in my oinion.
I mean they really can't push the graphics anymore lol with that amount of enemies having PS5 graphics would crash the console once we get a PS6 best believe dynasty warriors will look like a PS5 game so they definitely are putting the most they can in graphics but this all the PS5 can do
The past few years have been pretty rough for Musou fans, but I've gotta hand it to Koei, this is looking like it's going to be an absolute banger game.
@@whatsmynameagain7774 Ikr the type of fans that will overhype/askiss anything when y'all haven't even got played the game yet and a base roster of 9 isn't looking so good 😂
Really glad its not open world anymore. Looks like Koei learned from their lesson. Sadly I dont see the funny weapons coming back, and it's a shame. From the few officers we see here their clothing look much better than in 9, but its a safe bet the animesque era of the caracters is not coming back. The MC looks cool as fuck though.
I'm pretty optimistic about this game. I appreciate there's more steps being taken to help the player feel like they're leading an actual army. The duel system also seems pretty sweet, too.
Never liked Zhang He due to his over exaggerated personality, he seems more close to his book identity and more down to earth now. I seriously like that.
I like a lot of what I'm seeing here after years of being disappointed with the shallowness of the series. This seems like it might embrace the tactical side that was so dear to me in the series a long, long time ago, but has been largely missing for years now.
I totally agree with u!! This soo much better than lousy Dynasty Warrior 9! i didn’t play it but I don’t want to. We’re very looking forward to it next year!!!
Wow! I'm actually really impressed. I am so glad you decided to make the series go into a more immersive direction : the feeling of war is incredible, and it seems that strategy is much more indepth. I like that. I'm so happy You guys went for a true battlefield experience rather a mindless hack and slash.
11:55 Wasn't expecting my main Zhenji to look generic with throwing knives. 😭 When I heard speculation about how they weren't including jokey weapons, I didn't think the flute would be considered one of them. 😢 Maybe the outfits will change once officers change factions, instead of being recolors? 🙏
No don’t just be patient. Anyone saying that needs a seat. Be loud that you don’t want your characters fucked up because we should not even give them room to allow this as an okay design and weapon choice. This is absolute garbage for her character
if they remove Ma Dai's paintbrush I'm throwing hands. I didn't see any of these aspects as jokey, I thought they were creative and fun - and a good way to keep people invested in a story that's been retold and retold. I'm so glad they're leaning back into DW7 in terms of outfit design though. Guo Jia looks FANTASTIC i lost my absolute mind... i'm so excited for proper releases- and we need our VA's back. Be patient to some degree, yes, but also be loud enough we're not getting whatever the hell DW9 was. I'm glad they took the complaints seriously though. Origins looks like it has promise.
So this is the campaign mode I guess , playing as the random dude right? Hopefully we get the good ol free mode and some other mode letting us play as known generals
Wow, i think this is the best that Dynasty Warriors have ever looked! Not just the detail but good looking animations and strategic combat!? This is a day 1 play for me!
My favorite character looks more beautiful than ever! His outfit is so gorgeous, and his hair is amazing as always! I'm low key happy he has his spear back :)
The base of this game looks great, man. This much of footages, they are confident they deliver. There are still room for improvements still, but this is great start.
I'm mildly concerned that the story only goes from Yellow Turbans to Chibi. Even the earliest games would go all the way to Wuzhang Plains. But if they really expand on all of that and can still maintain replayability, I'll be happy. Everything else is sounding and looking great! Only 4 months from release ya'll 🥳🥳🥳
i will return on this saga (day one steam), my last Dynasty warriors was on PS2 or PS3 😆 but this game its awesome. im so excited. i Hope the hardest boss who kicked my ass every time in the past it will be in the game. "Lu Bu" i think his name 😅
Dynasty warriors 4 was the first game of the series that I played. My brother and I had a lot of long nights with that game. Then we kinda grew out of it. I'm thinking I'm back.
Remember we installing Shadow play, with an assassin creed style where you hide in the trees and shadows in order to sneak into bases like the side missions we have already... We leveling shadow
This makes it possible to hide from other armies and formations... And makes it possible to give orders on the battlefield Field adding 2 additional orders to the 4 we already have... If you have the shadow level up or perk
The only thing I don't love is that every time you kill a leader, the entire army leaves. It's like you're just moving around a huge map where you reach points with soldiers.
ゲームをより深く、より明確に理解して楽しんでいただくために、ゲームをアラビア語に翻訳したいと思います。 We want to translate the game into Arabic to enjoy it well and understand the story more deeply and clearly. Thank you.
Plus: -Game become more cinematic. Graphics and special effects are the best! -NPC behaviour and battlefield feels so alive. -Good integration of stratagems from DW8E. -Maybe we can call the gameplay "back to the roots". Partially. -Best decision for map. Minus: -Souls-like elements in DW gameplay is a mistake. Game feels less dinamic. -Only 9 weapon types? Seriously? -With that level of insanity on battlefield it could be good to add bizarre weapons from DW8. But yeah, realism. -How many side characters we will be able to play? Please don`t tell me, it will be only 9 of them.
I feel they are going into the right direction by reducing the number of playable characters since each character has a young and old model. The graphics have improved so much! And the number of npc on screen is definitely a wow factor! Gameplay looks fantastic! Really like the feel of realism and 1v1000 here
I just hope the enemy density holds up so that it can be the mass combo game it uses to be. There was a lot of hunting targets in this gameplay and while visually density was up, they were mostly ally.
Enemy density is there at times, particularly if you wade into a Large Force... based on some of the movesets though, particularly the Podao, I'm guessing that this isn't meant to be a mass combo game...
This is the Dynasty Warriors we all wanted to play as kids Koei. Big open battlefields, a.i. that actually progresses on the battlefield and fights with you, tactics and plenty of allied and enemy units. Also things like more realistic weapons and characters would be nice. Still with distinct personalities and coolness factor, but not so quirky as to break immersion. I do hope there is also an option in free mode or something similar to play as the other characters in the series. Bottomline, I feel the game is taking a step in a great direction.
If there are less playable characters then we should expect to see lots of variety in weapon types, attacks, finishers, animations, etc.. I don't want to use the same moves and see the same animations over and over
Then dont play? Its been that way since forever. Who complains bout this in these games. They only made how many of these games and you complain bout that out of everything? Is this your first warriors game?
It looks like they've reset themselves back to when they had them. They've been trying to figure the game engine out for so long, they're sticking with simplicity until they can dw8 it.
@@jonathant4902 I didn't notice. oof jesis Koei always taking 1 step forward 2 steps back. Back to DW6-7 with people using wrong or unfitting weapons or dupes.
Enfin un peu de compétences stratégique à la KESSEN dans un dynasty warriors. J’espère que cela aura un impact dans les batailles que ce soit côté ennemies comme alliées.
that world map looks like an RPG map and has the Roman of the Three Kingdom vibes world map I need to watch more but you know Koei that this is day one buy for me I just hope it goes back to your DW roots and have nothing to do with DW9
22:48 That final blow from Xiahou Dun massively a banger! Hahaha 😂
KOEI, RELEASE A DEMO AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!!!
Kratos reference
AND MY LIFE
I support. Video game of my chilhood
i bet they do.
Demo would be nice but it'll give away too much I believe
im beginning to believe
The GOAT is a musou enthusiast???
dont make me believe again, it was cruel with dw9
Ayy!! Hope you cover this and go into the variety route Mr Monke!
What are you doing here?! Go cover more Tekken 8 and Street fighter stuff lol.
@@Rayhaku808 ive been on this train since ROTK 4: Wall of Fire for SNES, its been a long ride.
((I'm not responding to anymore people, too busy))
Among some of the triple A games that just seem more self-absorbed with putting money into graphics and not their gameplay, It really feels like Koei is very focused on delivering a fun experience with a lot of depth, especially with the awesome amount of chained techniques that happened at 8:16
Normally I'd praise them for this but after DW 9 which was a let down they needed to re earn the trust of the player base so far I'd say they are succeeding
@@ShadowBoss99 RIGHT!? I am STILL somehow cautious because of DW9. But, I can at least match the gameplay to how it works in terms of controls. So, I know at least gameplay wise, we have back a more classic musou style...and I'm glad Duels from DW4 are back.
DW games spands over for more than 20 years. And I was there from the beginning in 2000. I'm a big fan and I can say FINALLY they're learning from their mistakes and listening to the fans. They're bringing back the classic DW and making it better. I've waited so long for this 🥹
@@uso_Jus2SmooTh94 Quite true. I am a fan who went in reverse and came to the opinion that Classic DW is better. I started with DW6 empires at a friend's place, then played Strikeforce and never realized that was all part of the DW6 gameplay. Then I tried Warriors Orochi 1 on psp and was like, oh damn this is cool, then I played Orochi 3 (since I still wasn't sure about DW or SW), and after that, I ended up getting DW7 empires, SW4, then hyrule warriors...annnd then I went in complete revere, trying DW5, 4, 3, 2, and same for Samurai Warriors.
There's something so fun and engaging about the classic PS2 titles compared to even DW8, though I will say, Samurai Warriors has managed to stay interesting with each game for me in my oinion.
I mean they really can't push the graphics anymore lol with that amount of enemies having PS5 graphics would crash the console once we get a PS6 best believe dynasty warriors will look like a PS5 game so they definitely are putting the most they can in graphics but this all the PS5 can do
They finally do it! This is what I imagined when I was playing Dw 3 as a 6 year old kid !❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
Dw3 the best
Facts!!!!
This is what I imagined when I discovered DW2 in a supermarket many, many years ago...
The past few years have been pretty rough for Musou fans, but I've gotta hand it to Koei, this is looking like it's going to be an absolute banger game.
Whatever you guys are smoking, pass it this way
@@whatsmynameagain7774 Ikr the type of fans that will overhype/askiss anything when y'all haven't even got played the game yet and a base roster of 9 isn't looking so good 😂
This looks really good, can't wait
Wait a minute... This looks... good?!
Are we back! IS DW BACK!!!
Bro look at 18:30!!?? look at all the bodies!!
As a long time fan I believe so 🥹 they're finally doing it
i don't know what changes they've done to the engine but the increase in troops is shocking.
But why is Zhang He looking like that tho.. 😢
Really glad its not open world anymore. Looks like Koei learned from their lesson. Sadly I dont see the funny weapons coming back, and it's a shame. From the few officers we see here their clothing look much better than in 9, but its a safe bet the animesque era of the caracters is not coming back. The MC looks cool as fuck though.
Open World would have been more suited for empires, while how they did it with empires would have been more auited for the main game imo
Good, anime is cringe I'm glad this series is taking itself seriously again
The MC still look anime af. As well as many of the officer's design.
That's a lot of bodies on the screen.
I'm pretty optimistic about this game. I appreciate there's more steps being taken to help the player feel like they're leading an actual army. The duel system also seems pretty sweet, too.
Never liked Zhang He due to his over exaggerated personality, he seems more close to his book identity and more down to earth now. I seriously like that.
Holy shit I'm absolutely hyped for this game. They're just flexing the amount of soldiers on screen now with absolutely 0 slowdown.
Koei please I beg release a demo and I will replay this for a good minute 😂😭
This is what i imagined to be a next gen dynasty warriors game. Complete chaos in the battlefield. Enemies everywhere. I love it.
Im truly hopefull this one is gonna be the comeback Dynasty Warriors franchise needs. Looks so dope.
I like a lot of what I'm seeing here after years of being disappointed with the shallowness of the series. This seems like it might embrace the tactical side that was so dear to me in the series a long, long time ago, but has been largely missing for years now.
The game looks amazing, I am excited about it.
What an improvement from DW9! If the series continues like this with further improvements then im looking forward to future games
This actually looks miles better than 9! Very hopeful!
I totally agree with u!! This soo much better than lousy Dynasty Warrior 9! i didn’t play it but I don’t want to. We’re very looking forward to it next year!!!
Wow! I'm actually really impressed. I am so glad you decided to make the series go into a more immersive direction : the feeling of war is incredible, and it seems that strategy is much more indepth. I like that. I'm so happy You guys went for a true battlefield experience rather a mindless hack and slash.
11:55 Wasn't expecting my main Zhenji to look generic with throwing knives. 😭
When I heard speculation about how they weren't including jokey weapons, I didn't think the flute would be considered one of them. 😢
Maybe the outfits will change once officers change factions, instead of being recolors? 🙏
Outfits will most likely change weapons too since this game is still in development
The flute was a one of a kind weapon. Dw3 through 5 had it right with weapons
game is still in development, so be patient
No don’t just be patient. Anyone saying that needs a seat. Be loud that you don’t want your characters fucked up because we should not even give them room to allow this as an okay design and weapon choice. This is absolute garbage for her character
if they remove Ma Dai's paintbrush I'm throwing hands. I didn't see any of these aspects as jokey, I thought they were creative and fun - and a good way to keep people invested in a story that's been retold and retold. I'm so glad they're leaning back into DW7 in terms of outfit design though. Guo Jia looks FANTASTIC i lost my absolute mind... i'm so excited for proper releases- and we need our VA's back. Be patient to some degree, yes, but also be loud enough we're not getting whatever the hell DW9 was. I'm glad they took the complaints seriously though. Origins looks like it has promise.
This looks fantastic. I am glad Koei is putting more efforts into DW games.
This looks so much better than previous installments. Seeing Samurai Warriors like this especially Empires would be epic.
So this is the campaign mode I guess , playing as the random dude right? Hopefully we get the good ol free mode and some other mode letting us play as known generals
This is a spin off not mainline title what you see is what you get
Martial arts weapon looks awesome
Finally what I wanted from dynasty warriors
God damn the Empires version of this is gonna be lit
Wow, i think this is the best that Dynasty Warriors have ever looked! Not just the detail but good looking animations and strategic combat!? This is a day 1 play for me!
When this game finally releases this will probably be the only game I play for a solid month
I’m pumped to play this at launch. This looks awesome!
Hopefully the PC version is optimized
facts
I wanna burn my PC 🗣🔥
this game makes me to upgrade my own pc
My favorite character looks more beautiful than ever! His outfit is so gorgeous, and his hair is amazing as always! I'm low key happy he has his spear back :)
Too bad you won't get to play as him 😂
@@justiceblade6550 He may become a companion, so in a way he might be playable.
I was glued to my phone the whole vid that I didn’t want it to end. Looks very fun tbh, can’t wait. (:
Yo bringing back freaking mid war duels from dynasty warriors 4 is a serious W
Why does this look better than Ronin? 😂
Cz it’s not open world, the Koei engine can’t handle open world, ronin only flaw in my opinion was being open world ,
@@JNava6489Facts!!!
Parry, duel, and tactic. That's Awesome feature in this game. Waiting for Lubu skill musou.
The base of this game looks great, man. This much of footages, they are confident they deliver. There are still room for improvements still, but this is great start.
I haven't played DW in about a decade. This looks really good though, definitely interested again. Looks like old school DW but on a far bigger scale.
I'm mildly concerned that the story only goes from Yellow Turbans to Chibi. Even the earliest games would go all the way to Wuzhang Plains. But if they really expand on all of that and can still maintain replayability, I'll be happy. Everything else is sounding and looking great! Only 4 months from release ya'll 🥳🥳🥳
Most of those generic officers actually got armor from Empires.
You have created a wonderful battlefield through various journeys. I look forward to it. :)
i will return on this saga (day one steam), my last Dynasty warriors was on PS2 or PS3 😆 but this game its awesome. im so excited. i Hope the hardest boss who kicked my ass every time in the past it will be in the game. "Lu Bu" i think his name 😅
Dude just watch a demo about lu bu in this game XD. You'll love it
Dynasty warriors 4 was the first game of the series that I played. My brother and I had a lot of long nights with that game. Then we kinda grew out of it.
I'm thinking I'm back.
Me 2 DW4 was my first and I loved it
🇧🇷Nós do Brasil! Amamos esse tipo de jogo! Excelente combate! 🇧🇷
Wow.. this looks great. Exactly how i remember playing DW3.
IN FULL BLOOM ORIGINS REMIX 🔥
I will be crazy if great red spirit track is display in Hefei stage.
Heard Eve in previous trailers. Adding remixes from both DW 4 and 5 would be magical
@@steelyphil4859 so far we have :
- arena
- EVE
- the wall of fate
- in full bloom
i cant even hear it because of the constant talking over the gameplay
@@saka25354 we wont pass chi bi, chi bi is the finish point for this game
Remember we installing Shadow play, with an assassin creed style where you hide in the trees and shadows in order to sneak into bases like the side missions we have already... We leveling shadow
This makes it possible to hide from other armies and formations... And makes it possible to give orders on the battlefield Field adding 2 additional orders to the 4 we already have... If you have the shadow level up or perk
Never played DW but a huge Koei Tecmo fan. Will be checking this out.
KOEI been a hit and miss these days. Hopefully this will turns out good
for this to be a miss, that would require there to be a chance for a hit.
Unfortunately, this game doesn't even present that as an option
Finally a game worth pre-ordering🤩 I appreciate how they are always trying to give us something new. Not always with success, BUT THIS LOOKS FUN!
The only thing I don't love is that every time you kill a leader, the entire army leaves. It's like you're just moving around a huge map where you reach points with soldiers.
Looks great! I wish the protagonist could change outfits to match the kingdoms you join
For real that would of been cooler
You can. The white palette on this outfit can be change to green, red, blue or purple
@neonwattled where do you see that at?
@@theoutdoorchannel9283 yt keeps deleting my comment, it was on dynasty warriors reddit
@theoutdoorchannel9283 it was on dynasty warriros r*ddit. I censored bcus yt keeps deleting my comments for some reason
Can't wait to play this once this is out, they kinda change the usual "1 vs 1000" a bit which I also like. Can't wait
Please make DW like DW 5, DW five got a clear story and great gameplay ever
After the end of the three kingdom, the fall of Jin dynasty vs Mongols will be an insane battle
ゲームをより深く、より明確に理解して楽しんでいただくために、ゲームをアラビア語に翻訳したいと思います。
We want to translate the game into Arabic to enjoy it well and understand the story more deeply and clearly. Thank you.
So we get to see a younger zhenji and zhang he neat
It’s looks so good they just better have a hard or chaos mode… I want it to be tough like a real battle… I cant wait for this
I like the changes to combat, looks more challenging and dynamic
Hope to see more weapon types and playable characters
Plus:
-Game become more cinematic. Graphics and special effects are the best!
-NPC behaviour and battlefield feels so alive.
-Good integration of stratagems from DW8E.
-Maybe we can call the gameplay "back to the roots". Partially.
-Best decision for map.
Minus:
-Souls-like elements in DW gameplay is a mistake. Game feels less dinamic.
-Only 9 weapon types? Seriously?
-With that level of insanity on battlefield it could be good to add bizarre weapons from DW8. But yeah, realism.
-How many side characters we will be able to play? Please don`t tell me, it will be only 9 of them.
I feel they are going into the right direction by reducing the number of playable characters since each character has a young and old model. The graphics have improved so much! And the number of npc on screen is definitely a wow factor! Gameplay looks fantastic! Really like the feel of realism and 1v1000 here
Games seems to put a big emphasis on officer vs officer. One swing of the weapon and 10 soilders stsrt flying
I like the souls-like elements, feels more dynamic actually
@@Gregster360 in souls-likes, where you can easily read the enemies - yes. But there is too much of them.
I'm tired of massive rosters of one dimensional characters. A smaller roster and a focus on quality is a great change. Looking forward to it.
The beautiful girl with grey dress is pretty really, so pleaseant to see.
But don't have any other compliment, other than word "Sugoi".
So cute 🥰🤏
This is finally looking like the Opening movie of Dynasty Warriors 9.
I just hope the enemy density holds up so that it can be the mass combo game it uses to be.
There was a lot of hunting targets in this gameplay and while visually density was up, they were mostly ally.
Enemy density is there at times, particularly if you wade into a Large Force... based on some of the movesets though, particularly the Podao, I'm guessing that this isn't meant to be a mass combo game...
Let's Goooo KOEIIIIII 🎉
ROTK + DW = DW Origins,.well done KOEI, well done.
There are so many soldiers on the screen🎉
Koei redemption arc is real
Beautiful ! ❤
Looks so promising 🔥
Is that the same voice actor who play as setsuna f seiei? From gundam 00
Will there ever be less soldiers present visually when you make it to the siege stage? The last phase in the battle? This is awesome.
Can’t wait to see Zhou Tai’s moveset 😄
January & February 2025 are packed, this and KCD:2 man. It seems the late 2024 and early 2025 are gonna be busy times.
is the mc fixed or customizable?
This is the Dynasty Warriors we all wanted to play as kids Koei. Big open battlefields, a.i. that actually progresses on the battlefield and fights with you, tactics and plenty of allied and enemy units.
Also things like more realistic weapons and characters would be nice. Still with distinct personalities and coolness factor, but not so quirky as to break immersion.
I do hope there is also an option in free mode or something similar to play as the other characters in the series. Bottomline, I feel the game is taking a step in a great direction.
Looks really freaking good
Looks amazing wish there was more finishing animations 🔥
Looks awesome. My only complaint is that the characters need more finishing moves. Seems like this character only has this over the shoulder grab
goddamn the entire screen is filled with soldiers!
If there are less playable characters then we should expect to see lots of variety in weapon types, attacks, finishers, animations, etc.. I don't want to use the same moves and see the same animations over and over
pretty surte its 9 weapons and 0 other permanently playable characters
lets have fun on this new musou game for 5 hours!
This actually fun to play! Can't wait
Zhenji throwing knives
Zhanghe Spear
multiplayer would make this game soooo good
I wish they add more finisher moves. Gets boring if he kept repeating the same move again and again
Then dont play? Its been that way since forever. Who complains bout this in these games. They only made how many of these games and you complain bout that out of everything? Is this your first warriors game?
Zhen Ji with throwing knives... Zhang He with a spear...
that hurt to see.
I thought I was the only one that noticed.
It looks like they've reset themselves back to when they had them. They've been trying to figure the game engine out for so long, they're sticking with simplicity until they can dw8 it.
Here's hoping it's just for the demo and more weapons are announced
@@jonathant4902 I didn't notice. oof jesis Koei always taking 1 step forward 2 steps back. Back to DW6-7 with people using wrong or unfitting weapons or dupes.
Koei, please bring in important characters, like Wen Chou and Yan Liang at the Battle of Guandu, and also Gao Shun, Ma Teng, Han Sui, and Gongsun Zan
i forgot notice zhang xiu
this looks insane
I hope there's Xin Xianying in this so I can always bring her along.
i usually didnot like this kind of game.. but now interested
Before this game was released I could already smell smoke on my computer 🙂
i think i got burnt out of dw games around dw6, after that i would buy them and quit after like 2hrs lol. hopefully this revives dw for me.
Can't wait to play this game🔥🔥
This looks awesome! And duels are back.
Looks really good, but do you have to do triangle finishers on officers to KO them every time?
Really hope a demo will be released.
Enfin un peu de compétences stratégique à la KESSEN dans un dynasty warriors. J’espère que cela aura un impact dans les batailles que ce soit côté ennemies comme alliées.
The Dynasty Warriors redemption arc right here?
cant wait for the empires version
that world map looks like an RPG map and has the Roman of the Three Kingdom vibes world map I need to watch more but you know Koei that this is day one buy for me I just hope it goes back to your DW roots and have nothing to do with DW9