The most broken Smash character you (probably) don't remember
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- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
- Sheik was one of the best characters in Smash 4, even after receiving many impactful nerfs and being given new competition in the form of DLC characters. But what was Sheik like before all the nerfs and the DLC? She was kind of broken to say the least.
This is my first entry in a new series where I look at pre-patch versions of Smash 4 characters. My main goal with this series is to explain what changed between then and now and how that affected the character. This was definitely a more ambitious project than my usual Trash Smash Moves videos and I hope it turned out well. I am open for suggestions for future videos so if there is a pre-patch character you want to see then do let me know. I do have access to every patch so I can look at pre-patch DLC characters as well. - Ігри
There are a couple of things I would like to mention since it has been a while since this video was uploaded. I would like to start by thanking everyone who has supported this video recently. This has always been one of my own videos which I am more fond of so it is really neat to see it get so much support. Thank you all so much.
The main thing I would like to comment on is the whole Brawl Meta Knight thing. I never explicitly say in this video that Sheik was better than Meta Knight, I just said it was a possibility. In hindsight, I might have been a bit overenthusiastic but I still firmly believe that it would have been very close (definitely closer than with post patch Bayo) and I also want to make it clear that I was comparing their strength in their respective games rather than directly comparing the characters in a vacuum. You have to look at characters in accordance to the game’s they were in rather than their designs in a vacuum and I firmly believe that in a theoretical world where Smash 4 was never patched, this Sheik would have dominated similarly to MK before her and later Bayo. We obviously don’t have conclusive data for Sheik of course but seeing what she became later in the game’s life/meta, what was different about her back then and how the game itself was different back then, I have no doubt that’s how things would have played out theoretically.
The second thing is that there’s more stuff I didn’t touch upon. Back air Boucing Fish was a thing which could KO very early in the right scenarios. Smash 4 had the untechable reel at highers percents which Sheik could set up with a nair or Needles. She could then finish the stock with a bouncing fish (or maybe a DACUS in some situations). These moves already lead to KO confirms at higher percents but the untechable reel just guaranteed them further (mainly if the opponent tried to DI down to tech for example). I will also say that LSI affected her throw game a bit more than I made it out in the video (mainly on down throw) but Sheik still had strong followups to punish the opponent air dodging and such and she still had the mobility to chase her opponents after her throws.
I hate that they keep taking out any interesting tech.
Man Early Smash 3DS is such a fascinating topic. The way it handled DI, Dacus, and such makes it a cool "What If" scenario. I wish there was a way to better experience this version, or a mod of sorts for Wii U that restores some of these mechanics
I'm not sure if there's a Wii U mod to restore the mechanics but the best way to play Vanilla 3DS these days is on an emulator. Vanilla 3DS was really interesting and I wish it got to stick around for longer.
i like looking at smash 3ds footage in hd
Dude, playing competitive level smash on the 3ds was so fun during high school. My only regret is that it destroyed my hands.
I genuinely thought you were gonna talk about the Wario momentum glitch making him unkillable and causing advantage
Ok but Brawl Meta Knight could literally make himself invincible forever...
You are not wrong about that. I think it is important to mention that Infinite Dimensional Cape was banned from tournaments and you needed absolutely insane execution in order to do it forever. But it’s mere existence is still definitely busted for sure.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqankyou could still scrooge on ledge
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqanki think the fact that the technique had to be banned is just more proof that brawl mk is untouchable. people like to exaggerate how broken moves are by calling them "win buttons" but dimensional cape was quite literally that definition
Deserves way more views. The fact that you made an in-depth exploration of a pretty much undiscussed character in the meta of Smash 4 is very fascinating, and I never knew about Sheik's dominance then until I watched this video (nor the existence of DACUS, although I do remember Wectoring). One piece of feedback is that I would try to do the KILL% comparisons side-by-side instead of subsequent.
Thank you. I really appreciate it. As for doing a side by side comparison for KO moves, I generally avoided it as I feel it would not flow as well with the style of commentary I do, showing one then another always made more sense to me. You also get fullscreen views of the KOes, a split-screen could make it harder to see the details depending on the viewer’s setup. A split screen view though is something I could maybe look into with later videos.
The unfortunate reality of Smash 4 only being remembered as "The game where Bayo was broken" is that there's very little discussion about every other aspect of it's game design, least of all that Smash 4 has had characters who were even more grossly overpowered than Bayonetta.
Vanilla 3DS Shiek and Vanilla WiiU Diddy Kong were infinitely better characters than Bayo ended up being, but they were at least removed from the game.
Arguably just as good is Tiny Mii Brawler who, while perpetually banned, is another character indisputably more broken than Bayonetta who is actually still in the game.
this reminds me a lot of Honest Content's character retrospective videos except you seem to have a much better idea on how the game actually works 💀 good video ❤️
Thanks. While Honest Content does have a lot of neat video ideas, I can’t lie, they don’t put much effort into researching their videos, resulting in a lot of misinformation/inaccuracies. No disrespect towards Honest Content, they do seem like a hard working individual but their videos definitely miss out on their full potential due to weak research.
Smash 4 prepatch sheik looks unironically fun.
She was.
so adding a new character to the list.
64 pika, melee fox, brawl mk, 3ds sheik, wii u bayo
Yes
And now Ultimate Steve.
3DS scene still exists although it's really small now.
This is probably the most ambitious Smash video I've ever made on this channel. I hope it turned out well. I know my mic quality isn't the best but apart from that, I hope the rest of the video is still enjoyable. If you did enjoy the video then do feel free to comment, rate subscribe and share. I would highly appreciate it.
As always, if you have any questions then do feel free to ask. Labbing Vanilla 3DS Smash 4 is definitely not easy so I couldn't consider all possibilities in every situation such as using DI to combat KO confirms. One change I did not mention is that Sheik's spot dodge and rolls had more intangibility in Vanilla 3DS (and earlier Wii U versions) but I didn't mention it because it seems to be a universal change. It's also possible that I might have missed something else (I didn't even know about edge cancelled Bouncing Fish until I finished the script and I did it by accident) but I think I covered everything. Edit: after making the video, I realised that bair can combo into Bouncing Fish for a KO confirm at specific percents/positions. It can kill Mario around 75% if he is a short distance away from the edge. Man... ua-cam.com/video/FL8MottOMWM/v-deo.html
I do have access to all of Smash 4's patches so if you want to see me look at early versions of other specific characters then do feel free to let me know.
This video definitely lives up to the effort, since there's nothing like it in terms of Smash 4 3DS content and it's good in it's own. Don't take these comparisons the wrong way - I mean them in the best ways possible - but this video gives off a mix of Schaffrillas Productions and Big Yellow vibes. The former in the editing and way you speak about broken stuff, and the latter due to the obscure fighting game content and the way the video is structured move-by-move. Coincidentally, those are also two of my favorite UA-camrs, which is a good sign.
Also I genuinely laughed at 16:00 - that caught me off guard!
Loved this video! Smash 3DS is overlooked so often. I also had no idea Sheik had confirms off standing needles at one point in time, that's wild.
It would have been nice if you showed some VODs of Smash 4 Sheik alongside listing the theoretical situations 1.0.0 Sheik could have been in.
Especially for moves where you show how much earlier they would kill at center stage. Nunbers are nice, but seeing an example of a common situation (e.g. Sheik's 50/50 D-Throw U-Air) alongside the numbers would have made the effectiveness of those changes more understandable.
Original 1.0.0 footage is nice, but it's also hard to gauge the extent of Sheik's punish game and how strong her normals were prior to the nerfs. You don't really show any early % strings, so showing VODs alongside your explanation could help strengthen your argument for why Sheik could have been so strong.
Thanks. Unfortunately, getting high level footage of vanilla is not particularly practical. Finding high level vanilla 3DS is basically impossible (not to mention a lot of footage is not high quality to say the least) and what little footage may still exist won’t be particularly useful either in most cases as the level of play just wasn’t there yet. The game was new and people were a long way away from figuring the game out. People would have played their characters sub optimally and the level of counterplay would be very sub optimal too. I will admit and say that I didn’t really think to look for footage back when I made the video but even if I did and I actually found footage, I doubt it would have been all that helpful. I like the idea and in the future, they may be situations where old archive footage will be useful and I will take advantage of it if it is helpful but I don’t see it becoming commonplace.
The specific down throw situation is interesting. That 50/50 was mainly strong in earlier Wii U versions and I could have had more footage showing that off for sure, either through old sets or more likely, my own demonstrations (although it is a bit late now). On 3DS, the 50/50 wasn’t actually as bad as early Wii U versions due to the different DI system. I did gloss over it because this was my first Vanilla Smash 4 video but vertical LSI absolutely weakened the throw as a whole since you could use Vertical LSI to get out of the 50/50 considerably sooner. Up air also didn’t KO much earlier with strong DI (which I did demonstrate in the video but not as much as I admittedly could have) so that makes the difference between versions smaller too. Sheik did still have stronger followups though if she read her opponent successfully, that was still more deadly in 3DS, that point still holds true (and Sheik had the mobility to chase her opponent). Forward throw wasn’t as affected by the vertical LSI differences due to its lower launch angle. The opponent had more freedom with DI but Sheik could still mess you up if she read the DI.
Good video, watched it all the way through and I liked the topic and the way things were presented.
I'd say the biggest issue is audio balancing and sometimes the game audio is so loud your voice is barely audible, but it was still watchable and I could still understand what you were saying.
Thanks. I do always try and make it so I can still be heard but especially when the game gets louder (particularly when KOes occur), it can be a bit harder to hear me. I think I usually let it pass because I can understand/hear what I’m saying but I guess it won’t be the same with everyone. In the future, I will experiment with making the game audio quieter.
I think saying Sheik is better than brawl meta knight is severely underplaying what made meta knight so awful to play against
wow those dacus combos look exactly like ranno's combos in rivals of aether
Amazing video, you're very underrated bro
Thank you.
Smash 4 UA-camr of the year :)
Sheik in pre patch smash 4 felt like a different beast than she is in super smash bros ultimate
this reminds me of a Big Yellow styled video tbh
Comparing Sheik or anyone to Brawl MK is peak hyperbole - its not even close lmao
i'm actually interested in seeing a fight between smash 4 launch sheik and and pre-patched bayonetta to see which one is truly better. it'll probably be a bunch of TODs but interesting food for thought nonetheless.
sm4sh 3ds was honestly the last time i had fun playing a new smash game
Basically melee Sheik but with an actual side b and down b
Dang, I knew sm4sh had dacus in early versions, but I didn't realize vanilla had it! I thought it was only in the demo and patched out, wild.
How were people even doing dacus on a 3DS? LMAO
People had figured out a way to use GameCube controllers on the 3DS back in the day. I couldn’t even do Sheik’s DACUS for this video without slowing the game down so I am impressed people managed to pull it off back then.
My favorite character ever in smash 😢
She was so cool mannn
Vanilla 3DS is like a fever dream.
Playing the demo sheik she had the melee backair that could fucking kill i was so stoked. And it was nerfed for release.
The idea of Pre-release Sheik being even more busted is both insane yet completely believable. Even Brawl Meta Knight was more busted in pre release.
What is LSI?
This page should explain everything you need to know. www.ssbwiki.com/Directional_influence#In_Super_Smash_Bros._4
0:28 "she has unspectacularable fearow power"??
I believe it’s “Unspectacular raw KO power”
Someone should make a mod for ultimate where the only playables are 64 pikachu, melee fox, brawl knight, 3ds sheik, sm4sh beyo and steve
Would be a fun idea but the difficulty with comparing these characters is that they are all in vastly different games with vastly different mechanics, metas, etc. These characters would change a lot if you plopped them into Ultimate and the idea of "giving them their game's respective mechanics" is also a lot more complex than it sounds.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank there is probably not a perfect solution but I definitely think you could add these characters in some capacity by buffing their moves. It would be fun to see brawl knight vs sm4sh beyo face off even if its not a 1 to 1 recreation.
Love the videos and channel but gotta ask why your voice randomly becomes an american impression on words like 'cahmboes' lol
Growing up at a time where the internet was exponentially growing, I naturally found myself watching a lot of American people online and especially for words I wasn’t super familiar with, it ended up shaping my vocabulary in certain places. For “combo” specifically, I did indeed end up hearing the American pronunciation for combo a lot over other pronunciations so that’s why I ended up saying “cahmboe” and not the more British “cohmboe”.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank i see, no criticism intended just jarring to hear as an aussie speaker, much closer to british
not to "well acktyually!" you on an otherwise awesome video, but would you really go as far as to say vanilla Sheik even comes close to Brawl MK's level of dominance? Like yeah, Sheik has potent combos and decent movement in a game where many characters lack those things. But Brawl MK also had those things, and then some. Brawl MK's control of space in neutral with his insane buttons meant he could dictate the pace in basically any matchup. He could also just like, stall out a ton of characters with his jumps, glide(s), etc.
When talking about how powerful a character is, it is best to look at them in the context of the game they are in. If you look at the two characters in a vacuum then Meta Knight is clearly superior but when you look at them in accordance to their game’s metas, it is a lot closer. It is hard to compare as Vanilla Sheik/Vanilla Smash 4 never got properly optimised but if Smash 4 never got patched, I could easily see like 5 Sheiks getting top 8 at majors similarly to Meta Knight. She was so much better while much of the rest of the cast was so much worse and it had different mechanics which worked against most of the cast considerably more than Sheik. I do believe she would have very firmly sat at top 1 in Vanilla and with what she had and what other characters had, I wouldn’t be surprised if she had no losing matchups (although this is admittedly hard to judge).
It is definitely possible that Brawl Meta Knight still had the edge over her but it is pretty close. You also have Vanilla S4 Bayo as a contender as well.
For your next Trash Smash Moves, you should talk about Sonic’s up smash,
I’m kind of low on ideas for my next video in that series so I might just do it.
Do you think she's better than prepatch bayo or prepatch diddy?
I’d say she had the edge over Diddy on 3DS. Diddy was an insane character but the different DI system on 3DS did make his throw game and his up air less consistent overall. If we’re compare 3DS Sheik to original Wii U Diddy, it’s a bit harder to say but I think I’d still give Sheik the edge but it’s close (Sheik was arguably better than Diddy in vanilla Wii U where Sheik was worse). Vanilla Bayo is probably still the best out of all of them though.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank would you say prepatch shiek would be better than postpatch bayo?
Also, I don't really see how she's close to MK. MK is just on a different level to basically anything else
Oh yes, she was definitely better than post patch Bayo.
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqankIn the final version, sheik and diddy are bayo's only losing matchups despite being nerfed harder than her
I think it's safe to say day 1 sheik and diddy would run circles around pre patch bayo
This is a neat video but I think the game is a bit too loud compared to your voice and I subjectively find the cutting to random movie/video clips to be kind of obnoxious
The audio mixing was definitely something which ultimately went wrong with this video (likely caused by me not having recorded a 3DS game before this) and I have been working to rectify the issue in newer videos.
As for all the unrelated clips, it’s simply my style. While the goal of these videos is to demonstrate the facts, I do also like to include some more humorous moments/references which some people would enjoy. It’s not for everyone though and it’s ok if it’s not for you. It’s just that I like to include some humorous moments to balance out the more factual parts of the video (and overall, I do aim to have my own style which stands out from content creators with similar videos).
@@bigbangbot-SuperSqank Fair enough ^^