I think the main reason the Jedi Order had their vision clouded so completely was that they never realized they had gone past being vigilant of The Dark Side and had begun to Fear it themselves. To quote Yoda's own words, "Fear is the path to The Dark Side."
They were arrogant. They are NEVER wrong. Just like fundamentalist Christians. They can see everything and everything they do is right. THAT is the idiot Jedi.
Yeah but how do you redeem a true sith. Like Vader, who killed a room full of children, hunted the Jedi to near extension, and brought endless terror and death to the galaxy. Him throwing his master off the Death Star balcony is really all it takes to be redeemed? One life equals all the murder and suffering he caused? Personally I didn’t think so, and some of the Legends books did a good job of exploring this debate especially from Leah’s point of view
It's not love and attachments that leads one to the darkness. It's their loss. That's why the Jedi discouraged and forbade them. It's also why love and attachments can redeem a sith, as those renewed or newly formed connections can drive the darkness away. Love lost is pain that makes one tend to lash out at the world around them. Love gained makes one embrace it.
@@FreeOpenTruth actually I'm not, he was desperate to keep the love he had and was willing to do anything. Ironically that was ultimately what made him lost it.
I think whether a sith can be redeemed depends on a case-by-case basis. If someone is not willing to change then they're not gonna, no matter how hard you try to convince them. But some people can change if they have reason to think critically of their own beliefs/actions and decide they aren't ok with what they're becoming.
"Love doesn’t lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... But passion is not the same thing as love. Love itself will SAVE you... not condemn you." - Jolee Bindo (Knights of the Old Republic)
Passion can't be control what-so-ever. Passion is a a heat of the moment situation. Anakin cutting Windu arm off, Passion. You are barely thinking in that moment. You just DO things. Bindo is talking off of his ass.
That Obi-Wan just wrote Anakin off was a hugh mistake cause it could be argued that he wasn't a true Sith yet. Sidious had no time to indoctrinate him fully into the order before sending him off to raid the temple and then to Mustafar. In that sense, Anakin is really a Dark Jedi, and in their own beliefs, they should have seen him as one that fell and needed help back to the light. And when they refused to do that was just another betrayal by the jedi. Just a theory
@Dominic Keijzer Lol "redemption" He saved his son. He didn't have any remorse from the time he killed the younglings to the point of his death. He only wanted to save his son. If Palpatine was killing Yoda or some rebel leader, he would not have cared.
That’s how I knew Darovit’s plan to attempt to redeem and save Zannah wouldn’t work. No way the Jedi would take her in, not only for her age but because of her allegiance to the Sith. She was much further gone to the darkness than Darovit anticipated, and it showed.
I never bought the whole “Zannah considers Darovit’s proposition and redeem herself”. She had been a Sith for ten years now and it would seem more likely she would scheme her way out rather than take that chance with the legacy she and Bane had to carry on🤔
@@LordWyatt I don’t think she considered turning herself in for a second, if anything she would have killed them all and took the mantle of Dark Lord. But then again that would be much knowledge lost, Bane still had much to teach her.
@@CommanderOfRussia1 I just read the book and it sounded like she was neutral about her redemption with the Jedi until Bane woke up. Like if he hadn’t before the Jedi arrived I wonder what Zannah would’ve done? Bane pointed out in a brief moment of consciousness that the Jedi wouldn’t let the Sith out of their sight so Zannah likely wouldn’t have been able to free her master; that is if she was going that direction rather than hesitation like when she was aboard the republic shuttle ten years earlier (before committing herself to the Sith). My point is I agree personally but the book makes it more unclear (or it becomes clear once Bane reawakens)
Praven was a pretty chill dude with his own code of honour and ethics. The guy killed jedi master Usma who was skilled duelist and let their padawan go just so when the padawan completed her training they could fight on even terms. Dude couldn't be considered a hardcore sith but more a patriot fighting for a cause and nation he believed in.
Vader took responsiblity of his own actions and sins when he converted to the light side. He wanted to die for many reasons and he was in a hell of his own making. and he wanted release from that hell(physically, spiritually and mentally) and due to many war crimes over the years, Vader would get the Death Penalty anyways
10 versus the probability of it actually happens or two very different day. Even though Anakin always had darkness within him he was forever surrounded by light but he wanted to admit it or not. The same cannot be said for all other Sith. The vast majority of them right avoid a fight no help no pressure no chance. It would be identical to try to get super mad become evil, and his cell Smallville many of the evil Doris who had ways of manipulating goals to become evil said these exact words about Clark Kent, sadly incorruptible. The word sadly because they knew they would never be able to get superman to be on their side. And the same difference for 99% of the Sith.
Regarding Yaddle's attempt, beyond the technicalities of Dooku not being a Sith yet, and who also not a Jedi by then either, that was a pretty heat-felt attempt. Both in the moment and in the long-term, she was trying to help Dooku one way or another. She was truly shocked he stood with Sidious. Even though it is a very quick scene, it has so much emotional resonance because of the reasons why Dooku turned; the audience knew he was correct to give up on the Jedi for both moral and personal reasons. Following that mournful scene at the Force Tree at the Temple following Qui-Gon's death, I think most would have cheered had he taken Mace Windu's smug, institutionalist head off.
"I believe he was referring to the fact that the Sith trick themselves into thinking that their dark deeds are for noble goals." For many of the Sith, I highly doubt they considered their goals, "noble."
Yeah, Dooku is a great example. He started out completely noble and understandable but either due to manipulation from the dark side or a darkness that had always been within him. He ended up being nothing more than a twisted version of himself. Still some level of the duelists honor within but only directed towards a goal of dominating others completely in opposition of his original idealism of bringing them justice and fair treatment.
It kind of sounds like how Wander saved Lord Dominator after her defeat and tried to redeem her by offering her friendship, but it only made her angry as she rejected his offer and vowed revenge against him and his friends.
in swtor you redeem a sith lord during your playthrough as jedi knight, and you meet a jedi who turns to the darkside later on who you can redeem but also that jedi had redeemed a dark council member and even attempted to redeem the sith emperor himself
They can also go out of their way to nudge their companion toward the light, if I remember correctly. It was doomed to fail for sure, but they still tried.
If is always possible To redeem someone but are committing to a herculean spiritual effort to redeem someone. Redeeming is easy if they deep down want redemption. If they don't then it is impossible, so why bother putting yourself in harms way.
Anyone that chooses the dark side willingly most likely can't come back from it, like when Yaddle tried to get Dooku to turn back, which is different from Anakin choosing the dark side to save Padme. Even though the dark side corrupted Anakin and he chose wrong, he would still try to save the ones he loves, ultimately leading back to the light.
@@jmgonzales7701 Desperation leads to making poor choices. Anakin was desperate to save Padme the only person he thought truly loved and supported him. Obi-wan wasn't a good master or parental figure, he never told Anakin he loved him until after chopping off his limbs. I forget the comic book, but Anakin was dueling a droid that looked like Maul and two padawans referred to Anakin as a slave. He didn't take the bullying well and threatened them with their own ligthsabers. Obi-Wan then scolded Anakin, what Anakin did was wrong, but he had his reason for doing it. Obi-Wan never tried to understand Anakin and Anakin's trauma never healed. That let Palpatine worm his way in and corrupt Anakin with half-truths. Dooku knew what he was doing was evil but chose to do it anyway. But yeah the dark side is evil.
@@jmgonzales7701 The dark side is indeed evil, it is the shadow cast by the soul. When the dark side is used it actively hurts both the user and their victims, which in turn hurts the living force. It's like using the force to stab itself.
Yoda did try to bring Dooku back from the Sith in "Dark Rendezvous." I know it is not canon any longer, but that novel is considered by many as the best of that era because it is entirely plausible and "Master and Apprentice" and "Jedi Lost" were both written to not contradict it regarding the relationship between Yoda and Dooku. Of course, Yoda came VERY close to success... but one must also consider Dooku as being the least Sith of the final run of Sith from Plagueis on. Moreover, Dooku's reasons were more amenable to a possible turn against Sidious if he felt his ultimate goal could be achieved by doing so. Of course, one must also consider that Sidious was also very paranoid about not only Dooku overthrowing him, but also simply turning back. But, as we later saw, in the last six months of the Clone Wars, the Jedi Council decided Dooku was beyond redemption and ordered his assassination.
The jedi are justified in not bothering to redeem a sith. The few that have been redeemed were in one way or another conflicted, which made them redeemable. Most sith are too far gone.
A Sith who is brought up as one knows and acknowledges no other path barring some extreme circumstance. A Sith who is a product of a fallen Jedi might actually require even greater extremes, precisely because it becomes a matter of sunk cost. By the point of becoming a Sith, they have necessarily committed unspeakably evil acts on a level where redemption is all but impossible - even in their own mind. Abandoning the pursuit of power at that point must feel as a surrender, an even greater failure than their fall. Ironically if the Jedi weren't so dogmatic and certain to execute such a person, contrition might actually be more likely. But as it stood, the fallen knew that they would be killed on sight and forgiveness impossible due to their actions which served as a kind of toll for entry into the Sith Order.
@@christopherkidwell9817 I don't have to read up on it. That's called an exception, which doesn't disprove the rule. Likewise, Vectivus was a Rule of 2 Era Sith who originated as a business magnate, not a Jedi. The need to commit a horrid act as part of a turn wouldn't apply to someone discovered and brought up as a Sith Acolyte - this also speaks to his Master having had an odd attitude about Sith ideology and practice. Especially since someone like Palpatine committed a terrible act in murdering his family without even being prompted to. It remains unknown if Plagueis would have called on him to do this or something comparable, since he also had atypical views on the Sith overall.
I feel like this is a post Old Republic issue. There were a number of Jedi during the Old Republic willing to redeem Sith. That was even a part of the original plan to deal with Viciate
Kotor and Tor are in a different universe to the mainline movies, even when George reigned over Star Wars they were considered C Tier Canon. They have a different understanding of Jedi and Sith and the Force
Though, to be fair to Kenobi, talking smack to Anikin during that fight ultimately lead to him trying to jump over the high ground. Only Obi Wan knew Anakin well enough to push his buttons well enough to do that, in spite of him being stronger.
I think the reason Jedi who fell to the Sith were generally so hard to redeem was that they had nothing in life but their relationship to the Force. Hard to argue that a person should act with some sense for the sake of those they love, if they don't have any attachments in the first place.
@Puppet Their whole philosophy is about avoiding attachments that you're afraid to lose. Close friendships are inappropriate, but even if you formed one, it just made you more vulnerable if they were to die or fall.
@Puppet That's closer to Luke's teachings than the Republic Jedi who prevented their members from forming attachments in the first place. A person who has only one close bond and no experience managing emotional connections is a fragile, desperate person.
@Puppet Poorly written dialogue aside, Anakin didn't "break the rules and act like an insane person" until he was already fully turned by Sidious. He was emotionally inexperienced, and therefore emotionally immature. He fell in love, as people do, and because he was raised to eschew attachments, he didn't know how to deal with it. He ended up having to pursue that relationship in secret, in FEAR that the Jedi Council would discover it, punish him, and keep him away from her, causing ANGER AND BITTERNESS. It wasn't his relationship with Padme that caused his fall, but the Jedi proscription against attachment. Luke's iteration of the Jedi Order, as you can learn from any number of videos on this channel, rejected the rule against attachments, viewing them as a source of strength, not weakness. This is fantastic, because inexperienced, naïve, emotionally fragile Jedi are not ideal for resisting the temptations of the Dark Side, and that's exactly what an isolated, monastic lifestyle creates. The Jedi have suffered several Schisms that have lead to large numbers of dissatisfied Jedi turning to the Dark Side, even creating the order of the Sith. With this kind of history, it's hard to argue that the Jedi teachings were flawless.
I wanna bring up revan, even tho the whole reason the jedi order redeemed him was because he was the only way to beat malak In the old republic era they tried to redeem a lot of the jedi turned sith. Perhaps its things like this throughout galactic history that makes them not even bother
In count dooku and Anakin state the Jedi council failed them. Count dooku case is that the Jedi and Jedi council should have taken and looked into seeing that the sith were coming back and that they should have been better prepare. And in Anakin case they should have done more to ease his fears of losing people he loves so that he didn't need to turn to ultimate power and they shouldn't have pushed heavily on his been the chosen one because that put a lot of pressure on him to be the very best of them all.
If the jedi didn't try to assassinate the duly elected Chancellor and seize control of the Senate then they wouldn't have been eliminated from existence . The jedi spent several millennia persecuting non-jedi force users .
I think "the negotiator" acting like this means he either willingly or unwillingly acted out of anger even when not explicitly stated. Not trying to reason because "Anakin is lost" is dealing in absolutes, its the same thing he accuses Anakin off. Obi Wan supposedly being the perfect Jedi shows how far they really fell from grace
Yea I think he had love/attachment for Anakin ("You were my brother") that lead to disappointment and anger he didn't know how to manage because of Jedi repression.
I don't think Anakin was a good example for this. He was still young and hotheaded. When he turned on Mace Windu, he said what have I done. That shows that he regrets what he did. I would say before his mustafor injuries he is more in the dark Jedi category and even after that, he never cared about the Sith and he was never happy. Now Good ol' Palpy is a WHOLE! different story. Unlike Siths before him who were groomed, trained or traumatized into the costum. He's a psychopath. Any Sith born and raised in the right circumstance could be good. EXCEPT Palpatine and Vitiate.
SWTOR players: Won't stop me from trying! Jedi Knight can do this to Lord Praven, Lord Scourge (partially--he joins primarily due to knowing what the Emperor will do), and also redeem the fallen Jedi in Chapter 3.
The simple answer is that the Jedi were lazy and couldn’t see that they were using fear (a path to the dark side) to fuel the exile of fallen Jedi. Laziness expedites the deterioration a lot of the best Jedi face because they can’t control their emotions.
The Jedi are evil for sure more so than the Sith I mean look at what they do to children steal them from their parents thus not letting them see their parents ever again and putting these kids through all these trials including the worst one the trial of flesh but the most evil thing they did was blame Ahsoka for something she didn’t do in season 5 the end in the clone wars show
7:38-7:49 For me, the answer is neither and both. What I mean is, there really is such a thing as being too far gone. That said, it is possible to repent from even the furthest reaches of darkness even at the latest stages in life (which is admittedly *extremely rare* ). That is to say, "being too far gone" is based on the willingness to repent, not the severity of the evil. The problem with most Sith is that either they never feel guilt and remorse, or when they do, the only thing they can do is double down.
I think a large aspect here is also what the Sith will do while they're still Sith. Anakin had just killed a bunch of children. Many, many children. Even if he was ultimately redeemable, he killed so so so many people until he was redeemable. Is it worth letting Vader kill so many people until the stage where he's redeemable again? Do you essentially "sacrifice" that many innocent lives for the sake of Anakin? We see Star Wars through the lens of the characters and their character development. While I completely agree with and appreciate what you're saying regarding the failings of the Jedi in general (I think you had a video also sharing why Obi Wan was wrong about Anakin being redeemable and Luke being the one to do it and so Obi Wan taught him the force ghost as a kind of apology or feeling bad because he didn't try to redeem Anakin), there's a larger issue here. Even if Vader was redeemable, would you allow him to murder so so so many people until he was at a stage where he was redeemable? You know every Sith will do something like that. So the 'greater good' is to kill a Sith because even if they can be redeemed, they will have killed so many other innocents before they will be. It may not be always who they will be, but it's who they are at that moment. Not saying I necessarily agree with that, just saying it's a solid argument.
The truth is that it was bad scriptwriting on George Lucas’ part as to why lines like “only the sith deals in absolutes” exist. To be fair I don’t think Anakin and Obi wan would have been able to talk it out on Mustafar anyways. I still love the prequels despite the flaws though.
You missed one trom legends. In the Thrawn trilogy Leia mentions a dark jedi that had gotten as far a Dagobah, and while who is unknown, the cave is so strong in the dark side because Yoda killed him inside the cave.
I understand not trying to save someone like sidious who has only ever been a dark sider and I understand their hesitation for not wanting to open themselves up to people like vader or dooku but I think fallen jedi, especially recently fallen at least deserve a chance
Funnily enough I just redeemed and turned a dark side user in a specific star wars game. I'm really really enjoying this experience for my very first time. If someone could guess the exact game I'm playing well I can't pay you but it would be a fun little challenge. Been balls deep into Star Wars as of here lately and I've been enjoying a lot of the games. Been playing Battlefront 2 and replaying Jedi: Fallen Order
The single greatest flaw in the Jedi was their belief that there is a dark or light side. There is only the force. The dark side is a distortion, a twisted reflection but it is still the force. Redemption is universal as is life, as is the force.
The reason's actually very simple. Sith give themselves into the dark side in full. According to Jedi dogma, when someone turns to the dark side like that, the dark side will forever dominate their destiny. The reigning interpretation of that dogma at the time of the prequel trilogy was that returning from going that deep into the dark side meant you were fully 100% lost and that the dark side had full claim to your soul. Therefore, according to the Jedi during the Prequels, there was no point in even attempting to turn a Sith to the light because the Force itself wouldn't allow it. Dark Jedi were considered to not have gone deep enough into the dark side to have been taken by it unless "proven" otherwise. A Sith returning to the light at that point would have been considered heresy, and the Jedi would likely eliminate the former Sith just like they would a currently active Sith.
I’m kinda sad iffy on things like Sith being redeemed in the ancient past. You’d think if famous Jedi were redeemed Yoda would know about it and wouldn’t have warned Luke that the Dark Path would forever dominate them. The only mitigating factor is that a lot of these past redemptions were under special, unique circumstances: Ulic lost his powers and couldn’t give in to the Dark side anymore, Revan had his memories and possibly personality utterly changed, and maybe Bastila being tortured into the dark path rather then willfully and clearheadedly choosing it makes it less a fall and more a traumatized lashing out that with help she was able to overcome.
Ive always take obi wans “only a Sith deal in absolutes” to be more of a “only a Sith deals in SUCH absolutes” (I.e. in reference to Anakin pretty much directly threatening him.)
I wonder what a Je'daii would think about both Jedi and Sith and as to whether or not either could be redeemed and brought back to the balanced center of the Living Force.
Actually seen a few in legends meet modern jedi and it’s always horror mixed with disgust. The je’daii were the perfect force wielders, they didn’t rely on the light or the dark, rather they used both borderline indiscriminately so whereas the sith became pure evil and the jedi became fanatics and represented the very reason people fear pure light since it can be just as bad as the darkest of the dark side
@@elijahhernandez906 you have the internet figure it out instead of acting like an idiot and posting that knowing full well it’s not rocket science to do a google search
September 11 2001 ,or December 7th 1941 ,or April 12th 1861 . All started something horrible . Fear to Hate to Distraction to Death to War to Fear to Sadness to Suffering to Unjust to Revenge to Death to War.
Ben Kenobi: …Then the Emperor has already won, you were our only hope. Luke: Only a Sith deals on absolutes. I will do what I must. Ben Kenobi: I taught you too well…
I couldn’t agree more and there are many or several videos on UA-cam talking about how and why they are evil I mean the steal babies from their parents thus not letting them see their parents again and they walk up to the parents asking them if they want to give up their kids and the most evil thing they did was blame Ahsoka in the end of season 5 for something she didn’t do
Can anyone be redeemed with enough effort and love? Yes. Would sith want to be redeemed? No. But my question is Do they DESERVE redemption. Vader did horrible things even if Luke redeemed him too the light. He made all the wrong choices, and in the end he just gets redeemed? The Universe at large would never have forgiven him and he would have never deserved it. So i believe NO Sith do not deserve redemption if they've already committed a crime beyond such redemption they do not deserve it. Justice would never be served if they were just forgiven. I can only name one sith lord who could be redeemed and even then he almost caused the end of a planet. And that would be Lord Praven from SWTOR online. He nearly destroyed tatooine but also spared lives felt regret and even surrendered after his defeat at the hands of The Hero of Tython and willing gave the codes that would stop the doomsday weapon dispite being ordered to destroy them he felt you deserved better he had honor. In the end you need to look at Sith based how they act and the deeds they've done. Praven was lucky to have had The Hero of Tython stop him before that line was crossed and he also felt regret and remorse for his actions. Sidious on the other hand had already gone too far even before he was even the emperor so he would never be deserving of redemption. So in the end you need to weigh the crime along with the individuals mindset and intentions. In my opinion someone like Praven deserves redemption because the planet wasn't destroyed and he felt great remorse for his actions and they were legitimate and he did all he could to right his wrongs later on by giving the codes to stop the planet killer and even becomes a lightside ally later on in the story. Vader and Sidious on the other hand killed thousands and destroyed planets without remorse even if vader was manipulated theres no redeeming a child killer in my mind and Sidious well he's just evil in carnate Both did not deserve redemption even if Luke did bring Vader back to the light at the end. The crimes of the past do not get erased because you suddenly make one good decision after a life of bad ones.
Vader wanted to come back to light, he just felt he was too far gone. Luke was able to show he could. Revan was wiped and able to be shown the error of his way while in that state... So most sith unless forced to see their mistakes probably won't be able to forced to change
"Obi-Wan once thought as you do." Anakin/Vader to Luke in Return of the Jedi. Hmmm I don't seem to recall Obi-Wan treating Anakin much like Luke did on Endor. Obi was pretty confrontational right out of the gate.and was not very forgiving...or even asking why the hell he had turned and turned (in Obi's eyes) so quickly. We the audience had been seeing his slow turn ever since Episode II through the Clone Wars. Aside from calling him his brother and telling him he loved him he didn't really try and turn him back....oh sure "Palpatine is evil!" he shouts. "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" Anakin replies. "Then you are LOST!" Not much of an attempt in my opinion. Anakin's eyes were STILL his normal shade of BLUE throughout their fight until after the high ground fiasco. This is why he really is still 75% Anakin only 25% Vader at that time. Give or take ofc. Right in the beginning Obi could have used what Anakin had just done to Padme to possibly bring hum back....especially if he had pointed to her lying unconscious and said to him Palpatine had bullshitted him this whole time and caused him to bring about his greatest fear. Even pointing out something like "Think about it! HE was behind everything from the beginning! He had Dooku hire the bounty hunters to attempt Padme's assassination! He started and prolonged the war! Do you really think he is going allow Padme to live if you join him?" Before allowing Anakin to even reply follow that up with something like "Come on Anakin....we have to save Padme and go kick that liar's ass upside down! Three or four Stone Cold stunners and a saber blade up his wrinkled ass!" I do think something along those lines might have made Anakin snap out of it and realize big bro Obi was right and turn his anger and rage on the man who had been playing him like a stradivarius for 13 years. Anakin and Obi drop Padme at Polis Massa with Yoda and Bail Organa (not before Padme comes around and see the man she loves is back, safe and about to go do the right thing. Anakin and Obi head back....catch Sidious with his drawers down (not literally thank God) and end the bastard. I think with 13 years off pissed off Anakin coupled with his being the Chosen One along with his brother Obi backing him all the way the fight would be over quick and Sidious would be dead in a puddle of his own blood, piss and shit. Messy death but he deserved it. Bail would clean up the rest....not Palps messy remains but the political side of it and he (along with a rested Padme) would see to it the Jedi would be exonerated and Order 66 revoked. Just my humble take on it....or what I WISHED had happened anyway. Thanks to anyone who bothered to read my long ass ramble here lol.
Had Ahsoka gone to Mustafar in Obi Wans place to confront Anakin she would of succeeded or if Obi Wan put a tracker on Padmes ship like he did to the Slave One and then follow her to Mustafar and land on a separate landing pad he wouldnt make it look like Padme had Obi Wan come to kill Anakin
One of the key elements in redeeming someone, even a Sith, is FORGIVENESS. As a Jedi I learned for myself that in order to truly redeem someone you must first forgive them.
Based on all the info I have I believe that I would be one of the non-canon Gray Jedi, I also believe that someone who is Sith is too far gone to be redeemed in most situations
Gray Jedi don't exist in the way you think. They are nothing more than light side users who left the Jedi Order but still continue to serve the light (ie. Ahsoka). Anyone who thinks that a Gray Jedi is someone who can use both dark side and light side powers is kidding themselves. It is impossible to try to walk the line between light and dark. The dark side is a bottomless pit, only a true Sith accepts this and willingly jumps headfirst into it. Those who try to "moderate" their dark side powers to be a "grey" Jedi are merely hanging on to the edges of the pit. Eventually they will be unable to hang on for any longer and will either climb out (redeem themselves in the light side) or fail and unwillingly fall into the dark (being driven mad in the process).
I think it depends. If a Jedi has just recently fallen to the dark side and not committed massive atrocities yet, it might have made sense for the Jedi order to try and redeem them. However, if a sith has already intentionally killed many innocent people in their lust for power, such as Anakin helping to kill nearly all of the Jedi and younglings in the temple, then redemption is simply not an option unless the sith seeks forgiveness in their own right, in which case maybe they can rot in a cell rather than be impaled by a lightsaber, but "redemption" might still be off the table. It's the same reason why it's almost a meme that Luke could redeem Vader despite all the innocents that Vader had murdered. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you understand the deeper meaning of it (which many casual star wars fans don't). At the end of the day, you need to face the consequences of your crimes. And if your crimes include the intentional murder of many innocents just so you can gain more power, then the only "redemption" you need is a lightsaber through the throat. This goes for Sith, Jedi, dark Jedi, etc. They all should be held to the same standard, even if that's not always how it happened.
that is true. Dark side is similar to performance enhancing drugs that boost the users to insane heights. For example, Dark Rage, a popular dark side ability of Sith Marauder can destroy a platoon of soldiers with extreme ease. There is a good case to compare Sith marauder to Eversor Assassin of WH40k fame both of them are hyper violent
I think it's more about poor writing by Lucas. It gets hard as a Star Wars fan to line things up, b/c he did such a bad job at the longer story than "A New Hope"...
No one that slaughters children or their innocent loved ones is deserving of being reached out to for redemption. You either earn that on your own or you dont. Anakin failed himself through his arrogance and refusal of wise advise repeatedly. Frankly the only thing Kenobi did that was "wrong" was not ending Anakin on Mustifar. But that was not the Jedi way so I dont blame him.
No, he didn't. The Jedi Order did a hell of a lot of things that pushed him to this: 1. Trying to keep him from Padme. 2. Refusing to free his mother from slavery, which would not have cost them that much in the long run. 3. Bashing him over the head with "You are not our perfect paragon of VIRTUUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEE!" regularly while disregarding that he was brought up as a damned slave. The Jedi made their own downfall by their own actions and inactions.
@@christopherkidwell9817 1. Nothing kept him from Padme. He could have left or owned up to it and taken the results. Nothing forced him to do what he did. 2. Trying to force the matter would have gotten the Hutts involved and potentially started a war. And if Anikan cared sooooooo much about mommy he would have left the order as was his right and done it himself. 3. He was lazy, arrogent, and full of anger. He was given tools to help. He refused to use them. He always assumed he knew best. He was not bashed over the head. He was a whiny brat being educated. And even if every single thing you said was true it still does NOTHING to absolve him. Having an abusive childhood NEVER ill say again real slow N.....E.....V....E...R absolves someone for murder of the innocent. You just parroted the same excuse many spousal abusers and child abusers use. They were abused themselves so its " not their fault "
@@ntfoperative9432 Watto had no desire to sell. And saying its a Jedi matter does NOTHING to stop a war with the Hutts who absolutely would target anyone they felt would hurt the Jedi including republic assests.
Here is my gripe. Yoda and Kenobi both were trying to climb a steep hill. Yoda while better than Sidious as a duelist is worse than Sidious as a force user. If he had spent time trying to bring him back to the light, he likely would have been killed. As Yoda likely would have conflict and from Star Wars, we know that being conflicted and unfocused nerfs your abilities. This is even more true for Kenobi. He was punching above his weight class. In fact, I saw a video saying the only reason he won was because Kenobi was so focused on defeating Anakin as Anakin had a lot of conflict with him at that point. If Kenobi had been conflicted too GG Anakin gets no suit.
The jedi are arrogant. Their overly strict policies combined with their arrogance keep them (as a whole) from truly being one with the Force. The Sith on the other hand are both arrogant and power hungry. This keeps them from forming real bonds with others, always fearing a knife in the back, keeps them from becoming one with the force as well.
Key detail? When the sith and Jedi conflict, who suffers? Who's in the crossfire having to navigate relations with both? When they could turn on them both?
Star Wars Therory I think even did videos on this but Obi Won just acting like he had to end Vader doesnt sit right ... like when they were having that speech while in the middle of the lava... I feel Obi Won would actually have tried to reach his brother" ... maybe even agreeing that some things the Jedi do is wrong ... giving an opening for say Anakin (forget what we saw with Anakin at the temple during order 66) to "return"
"not only do they write the fallen ones off as failures..." Theres many stories in legends and more of Jedi successfully returning to the light side. I mean....dude....does Revan ring a bell? Even when he was captured and tormented at the last, he sought to corrupt the emperor and poison his thoughts via the connection they had. EDIT: And of course you addressed this very thing lol
That's (probably) one of the BIG draw backs of the Movie Modern Jedi as we know them.. seeing as the Ancient Order AND all the other Media like the books, comics and games there's ample times and chances to save fallen Jedi an even to them not too far down OR unique cases... SITH... Can and have been redeemed or least come to some kinda agreement. Obi Wan an Yoda an how they all ACTED LEADING up to the end was just them being arrogant asses and utterly failing at their own tenets. He COULDA been saved here, HE NEVER WAS a common case, an Kenobi coulda and shoulda tried hard as he could to AVOID fighting Anakin. As Anakin was for sure "misguided" as it got. Must notve seen Anakin as THAT much of a brother
Ahhh, So Luke was extremely cautious and weary of sith but had no exact placeable hate for them? He didn't act on absolutes it seems, he was already in a good mindset. It was why he still attempted to turn Vader, but he wasn't weak minded and palpatines attempts to make him act in violent aggression was minimal at best, no different from the jedis attempts at control through suggestion, despite knowing the only option was to disable Vader one way or another, his sense of morality and true sense of subconscious love for his own father was likely his fuel for the lighter aspect, meaning that while he could've offed him and turned subjectively, he chose to reconnect and get him tf out of there
See... The paradox here? Obiwan: "Only sith deals in absolutes" Sith on average believe what? That their power is unlimited, there's no limitations, right? So therefore in an ironic sense, Absolutes do not exist with them, and they could be greater if they DID NOT seek control over others and had it in themselves, and didn't seek to rival the Jedi. The more you think about it, the more you'll realize Light and Dark force users in totality was and still IS very rare.
I think Revan is the way his actions although sith were based off altruistic actions and the greater good. He was much like Anakin only more respected which is what Anakin was shut off too unfortunetly ...
Uhmmm Revan? Well it was more brainwashing then redeeming but still, and back in the OR days, the Jedi often tried to reach out to the Sith asking them to stand down and seek the light again, in the clone war days well....There wasnt exactly many Sith to redeem.
Obi-Wan was already seeing Anakin as lost in ROTS. He went to Mustafar to kill him, lecture him on his betrayal rather than reason with him, and claimed he was lost when Anakin said the jedi are evil instead of Palpatine.
@@Elemento0420 But the Jedi ARE evil. Look at the actions and INactions they took. They should have told the Old Republic "No, not getting involved in your war, it is none of our business as peacekeepers!"
@@Elemento0420 Killing of children is always a bad thing and going off in the deep end. Assisting in a murder of a Jedi Master and killing of children would have Anakin imprison in a Jedi prison for the rest of his life if he was captured. Also Death Penalty would be on the table as well
@@Elemento0420 I can't disagree with that, but Obi-wan cleary says in kenobi "then my friend is truly dead" after Anakin tells him he wasn't his failure, inferring Obi-wan at that moment gave up on him. He then says "good bye Darth"
The Jedi don't believe that love and emotions lead to the dark side they believe that failure to control those emotions and the desire to cling to and dominate the things you love leads to the dark side. Bastilla loved Revan, Obi-Wan loved Satine.
Which is why they forbid love and emotions, because its the path towards the dark side so ya they do believe that it leads to the dark side, which it does, from a certain point of view.
@@Vakaria-plays well they forbade attachments if you could love and not become emotionally attached then try to slaughter 100's of kids to keep that attachment they don't seem to care all that much but most people fail. While it is considered legends now, Ki-Adi-Mundi had 5 wives and visit them not just for procreation so if a jedi master could maintain marriages rather than just donate dna to help his species it seems like the problem is getting to attached.
Obi-Wan loved Satine, but he gave up that relationship for the Order because he knew the Order wouldn't allow such a relationship. Revan was pre-Ruusan reformation. The Jedi Order at the time of the prequels was very much against all emotion simply due to the risk of failing to control them.
@@Vakaria-plays Which is completely the wrong way to go about it. Blocking up emotions is the surest way to make them control you. The right way is to understand the emotions and their origins. I think that's why Jedi fallen so easily to dark side. They're all stoicism and no emotional intelligence.
@@Mark73 I agree with you, i feel like you write as if i believe that the Jedi are right in their ways, which i am not. But i completely agree with you that blocking emotions or simply pretending they are not their is just adding steam to the boiler that one day will blow up.
The Jedi aren't afraid of love; remember, Anakin said they're encouraged to love. Love and attachment are two different things though. There's a reason Catholic clergy take a vow of abstinence; its very hard to devote your whole life to helping the community and to balance that with maintaining a healthy relationship. Now...imagine those same people are super-powered and your potential problems are ten-fold.
This makes me wonder about the Hero of Tython's actions regarding Lord Praven. Lord Praven was a Sith Pureblood -- there really shouldn't be anyone closer to the dark side, right? Yet the Hero of Tython can redeem Praven. Granted, that's done in Legends I guess, so it might not have any bearing on the new canon, but it's still an interesting counterpoint, that someone raised from birth as Sith could be redeemed.
I believe that it all depends on the the background of the Sith that the Jedi try to redeem. The perfect example is of course Darth Vader and his love for his son Luke that redeemed him, then there is Darth Revan who was redeemed through a mind wipe. Of course the rest are as we see are too far gone.
Actually... Nothing in the Sith Code mentions the Dark Side, it's just the sith culture that obsesses over it. The sith code is passion > strength > power > victory > Freedom through the force. Interestingly if the Sith code is approached from a perspective of gentility (strength under control and creating stable power), then the sith and Jedi codes seem somewhat convergent. Applied Knowledge is strength. Knowledge of psychological motivations means that subsurface peace is a paradox at best and most often an illusion. Now therefore, "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" would wind up affirming "peace is a lie, there is only passion". Ironically, an undefeated light side Sith would satisfy the code and go on to become one with the force. But who'd allow such an abomination?
Funnily enough, at least in Legends, Light Sith were a thing, and the rest of the Sith saw them as an abomination and eliminated the whenever they popped up.
It is a bit fair for the Jedi to consider the Sith as lost causes considering that usually they have done some pretty f***ed up shit by the time they became Sith.
As long as they're still breathing there is slim new hope left. That is where the Jedi fail. Luke's redemption of his father illustrates this, Vader the vilest Jedi killer of all, became Anakin again who destroyed the Emperor. The most vicious Christian killer in the First Century was Shaul of Tarsus. The most eloquent missionary, the Apostle Paul. They are one and the same man, and he never forgot this. Anyone can be redeemed.
if the Sith only deal in absolutes, that makes the Jedi closer to the dark side than they realize since they vehemently believe that there can only be the light side of the force. they talk about how Anakin was meant to bring balance but also strike down any Sith they come across considering this to be the will of the force itself. both sides are flawed in their ideals
I think the main reason the Jedi Order had their vision clouded so completely was that they never realized they had gone past being vigilant of The Dark Side and had begun to Fear it themselves. To quote Yoda's own words, "Fear is the path to The Dark Side."
Pride.
Same.
They were arrogant. They are NEVER wrong. Just like fundamentalist Christians. They can see everything and everything they do is right. THAT is the idiot Jedi.
The Jedi Order blinded themselves from their own failures, because like another commentator pointed out, they had too much pride in their own ranks.
Yeah but how do you redeem a true sith. Like Vader, who killed a room full of children, hunted the Jedi to near extension, and brought endless terror and death to the galaxy. Him throwing his master off the Death Star balcony is really all it takes to be redeemed? One life equals all the murder and suffering he caused? Personally I didn’t think so, and some of the Legends books did a good job of exploring this debate especially from Leah’s point of view
It's not love and attachments that leads one to the darkness. It's their loss. That's why the Jedi discouraged and forbade them. It's also why love and attachments can redeem a sith, as those renewed or newly formed connections can drive the darkness away.
Love lost is pain that makes one tend to lash out at the world around them.
Love gained makes one embrace it.
Anakin chose to kill children for a love not lost. So you are wrong....
@@FreeOpenTruth actually I'm not, he was desperate to keep the love he had and was willing to do anything. Ironically that was ultimately what made him lost it.
@@SolarinDay - But he caused the loss by being selfish.
@@FreeOpenTruth love can be selfish.
Being able to control your emotions and having emotional support from others could prevent loss leading to the dark side
I think whether a sith can be redeemed depends on a case-by-case basis. If someone is not willing to change then they're not gonna, no matter how hard you try to convince them. But some people can change if they have reason to think critically of their own beliefs/actions and decide they aren't ok with what they're becoming.
"Love doesn’t lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... But passion is not the same thing as love. Love itself will SAVE you... not condemn you."
- Jolee Bindo (Knights of the Old Republic)
Passion can't be control what-so-ever. Passion is a a heat of the moment situation. Anakin cutting Windu arm off, Passion. You are barely thinking in that moment. You just DO things. Bindo is talking off of his ass.
That Obi-Wan just wrote Anakin off was a hugh mistake cause it could be argued that he wasn't a true Sith yet. Sidious had no time to indoctrinate him fully into the order before sending him off to raid the temple and then to Mustafar. In that sense, Anakin is really a Dark Jedi, and in their own beliefs, they should have seen him as one that fell and needed help back to the light. And when they refused to do that was just another betrayal by the jedi. Just a theory
just a Theory... a Star Wars Theory :P
@Josh he had also nearly choked a pregnant Padme right in front of him
@Josh "There's no redeeming that" Do you, uh, remember what happened when Vader died?
@Dominic Keijzer Exactly, Luke believed in redeeming him in a way the Jedi counsel did not.
@Dominic Keijzer
Lol "redemption"
He saved his son. He didn't have any remorse from the time he killed the younglings to the point of his death. He only wanted to save his son. If Palpatine was killing Yoda or some rebel leader, he would not have cared.
That’s how I knew Darovit’s plan to attempt to redeem and save Zannah wouldn’t work. No way the Jedi would take her in, not only for her age but because of her allegiance to the Sith. She was much further gone to the darkness than Darovit anticipated, and it showed.
I never bought the whole “Zannah considers Darovit’s proposition and redeem herself”. She had been a Sith for ten years now and it would seem more likely she would scheme her way out rather than take that chance with the legacy she and Bane had to carry on🤔
@@LordWyatt I don’t think she considered turning herself in for a second, if anything she would have killed them all and took the mantle of Dark Lord. But then again that would be much knowledge lost, Bane still had much to teach her.
@@CommanderOfRussia1 I just read the book and it sounded like she was neutral about her redemption with the Jedi until Bane woke up. Like if he hadn’t before the Jedi arrived I wonder what Zannah would’ve done? Bane pointed out in a brief moment of consciousness that the Jedi wouldn’t let the Sith out of their sight so Zannah likely wouldn’t have been able to free her master; that is if she was going that direction rather than hesitation like when she was aboard the republic shuttle ten years earlier (before committing herself to the Sith).
My point is I agree personally but the book makes it more unclear (or it becomes clear once Bane reawakens)
Jedi Order: All Sith are beyond redemption.
Hero of Tython: (points to the literal Sith pure blood in Jedi robes)
Praven was a pretty chill dude with his own code of honour and ethics. The guy killed jedi master Usma who was skilled duelist and let their padawan go just so when the padawan completed her training they could fight on even terms.
Dude couldn't be considered a hardcore sith but more a patriot fighting for a cause and nation he believed in.
If Vader can come back to the light, we all can.
Not all can exar kun and papaltine were destiny to be sith lords
If you truly want to be saved, than yes you can be.
@@alsimmonshellspawn6021 both of them enjoy being Sith Lords and both of them are hardcore sadists.
Vader took responsiblity of his own actions and sins when he converted to the light side. He wanted to die for many reasons and he was in a hell of his own making. and he wanted release from that hell(physically, spiritually and mentally) and due to many war crimes over the years, Vader would get the Death Penalty anyways
10 versus the probability of it actually happens or two very different day. Even though Anakin always had darkness within him he was forever surrounded by light but he wanted to admit it or not. The same cannot be said for all other Sith. The vast majority of them right avoid a fight no help no pressure no chance. It would be identical to try to get super mad become evil, and his cell Smallville many of the evil Doris who had ways of manipulating goals to become evil said these exact words about Clark Kent, sadly incorruptible. The word sadly because they knew they would never be able to get superman to be on their side. And the same difference for 99% of the Sith.
Regarding Yaddle's attempt, beyond the technicalities of Dooku not being a Sith yet, and who also not a Jedi by then either, that was a pretty heat-felt attempt. Both in the moment and in the long-term, she was trying to help Dooku one way or another. She was truly shocked he stood with Sidious. Even though it is a very quick scene, it has so much emotional resonance because of the reasons why Dooku turned; the audience knew he was correct to give up on the Jedi for both moral and personal reasons. Following that mournful scene at the Force Tree at the Temple following Qui-Gon's death, I think most would have cheered had he taken Mace Windu's smug, institutionalist head off.
Padme's love didn't stop Anakin. If you listen to Anakin's response to her you can tell he's power drunk.
Sad that the person he tries to save is the one who suffers most due to his blindness.😒
"I believe he was referring to the fact that the Sith trick themselves into thinking that their dark deeds are for noble goals."
For many of the Sith, I highly doubt they considered their goals, "noble."
Yeah, Dooku is a great example. He started out completely noble and understandable but either due to manipulation from the dark side or a darkness that had always been within him. He ended up being nothing more than a twisted version of himself. Still some level of the duelists honor within but only directed towards a goal of dominating others completely in opposition of his original idealism of bringing them justice and fair treatment.
It kind of sounds like how Wander saved Lord Dominator after her defeat and tried to redeem her by offering her friendship, but it only made her angry as she rejected his offer and vowed revenge against him and his friends.
Wander over yonder huh. That was a trip down Memory Lane.
in swtor you redeem a sith lord during your playthrough as jedi knight, and you meet a jedi who turns to the darkside later on who you can redeem but also that jedi had redeemed a dark council member and even attempted to redeem the sith emperor himself
the old republic is legend as far as i'm aware, this goes for KOTOR as well
Who tf wrote "no one cares"
They can also go out of their way to nudge their companion toward the light, if I remember correctly. It was doomed to fail for sure, but they still tried.
If is always possible To redeem someone but are committing to a herculean spiritual effort to redeem someone. Redeeming is easy if they deep down want redemption. If they don't then it is impossible, so why bother putting yourself in harms way.
Anyone that chooses the dark side willingly most likely can't come back from it, like when Yaddle tried to get Dooku to turn back, which is different from Anakin choosing the dark side to save Padme. Even though the dark side corrupted Anakin and he chose wrong, he would still try to save the ones he loves, ultimately leading back to the light.
I dont get how some.people think that the darkside is not evil
@@jmgonzales7701 Desperation leads to making poor choices. Anakin was desperate to save Padme the only person he thought truly loved and supported him. Obi-wan wasn't a good master or parental figure, he never told Anakin he loved him until after chopping off his limbs. I forget the comic book, but Anakin was dueling a droid that looked like Maul and two padawans referred to Anakin as a slave. He didn't take the bullying well and threatened them with their own ligthsabers. Obi-Wan then scolded Anakin, what Anakin did was wrong, but he had his reason for doing it. Obi-Wan never tried to understand Anakin and Anakin's trauma never healed. That let Palpatine worm his way in and corrupt Anakin with half-truths.
Dooku knew what he was doing was evil but chose to do it anyway.
But yeah the dark side is evil.
@@adampender3685 just had an argument with a guy that stated the darkside is not evil then proceeded to call me a non true starwars fan lol.
@@jmgonzales7701 The dark side is indeed evil, it is the shadow cast by the soul. When the dark side is used it actively hurts both the user and their victims, which in turn hurts the living force. It's like using the force to stab itself.
@@jmgonzales7701 haha, did he use the argument that from his point of view the light side was evil. If so, you probably encountered a sith 😂
Yoda did try to bring Dooku back from the Sith in "Dark Rendezvous." I know it is not canon any longer, but that novel is considered by many as the best of that era because it is entirely plausible and "Master and Apprentice" and "Jedi Lost" were both written to not contradict it regarding the relationship between Yoda and Dooku. Of course, Yoda came VERY close to success... but one must also consider Dooku as being the least Sith of the final run of Sith from Plagueis on. Moreover, Dooku's reasons were more amenable to a possible turn against Sidious if he felt his ultimate goal could be achieved by doing so. Of course, one must also consider that Sidious was also very paranoid about not only Dooku overthrowing him, but also simply turning back. But, as we later saw, in the last six months of the Clone Wars, the Jedi Council decided Dooku was beyond redemption and ordered his assassination.
The jedi are justified in not bothering to redeem a sith. The few that have been redeemed were in one way or another conflicted, which made them redeemable. Most sith are too far gone.
Nope. Not true in the slightest.
@@christopherkidwell9817 None of it is true, it's all fiction.
@@christopherkidwell9817 Please explain Master Kidwell...
@@tsunami700 imagine if they had done that with Revan and many others like him
A Sith who is brought up as one knows and acknowledges no other path barring some extreme circumstance. A Sith who is a product of a fallen Jedi might actually require even greater extremes, precisely because it becomes a matter of sunk cost. By the point of becoming a Sith, they have necessarily committed unspeakably evil acts on a level where redemption is all but impossible - even in their own mind. Abandoning the pursuit of power at that point must feel as a surrender, an even greater failure than their fall. Ironically if the Jedi weren't so dogmatic and certain to execute such a person, contrition might actually be more likely. But as it stood, the fallen knew that they would be killed on sight and forgiveness impossible due to their actions which served as a kind of toll for entry into the Sith Order.
Actually no, they haven't. Read up on "The Sith that Did No Evil"...
@@christopherkidwell9817 I don't have to read up on it. That's called an exception, which doesn't disprove the rule. Likewise, Vectivus was a Rule of 2 Era Sith who originated as a business magnate, not a Jedi. The need to commit a horrid act as part of a turn wouldn't apply to someone discovered and brought up as a Sith Acolyte - this also speaks to his Master having had an odd attitude about Sith ideology and practice. Especially since someone like Palpatine committed a terrible act in murdering his family without even being prompted to. It remains unknown if Plagueis would have called on him to do this or something comparable, since he also had atypical views on the Sith overall.
I feel like this is a post Old Republic issue. There were a number of Jedi during the Old Republic willing to redeem Sith. That was even a part of the original plan to deal with Viciate
Was about to say pretty much this same thing. Only the new Jedi seem to believe that all Sith are just flat-out unredeemable.
@@antonsimmons8519 Seems like the new Jedi are going down the same path of arrogance as the old Jedi.
@@christopherkidwell9817 it's a cycle. The Order will rise, prosper, grow arrogant, then fall.
Kotor and Tor are in a different universe to the mainline movies, even when George reigned over Star Wars they were considered C Tier Canon. They have a different understanding of Jedi and Sith and the Force
C Tier not in quality but importance in the Canon
Though, to be fair to Kenobi, talking smack to Anikin during that fight ultimately lead to him trying to jump over the high ground. Only Obi Wan knew Anakin well enough to push his buttons well enough to do that, in spite of him being stronger.
I think the reason Jedi who fell to the Sith were generally so hard to redeem was that they had nothing in life but their relationship to the Force. Hard to argue that a person should act with some sense for the sake of those they love, if they don't have any attachments in the first place.
@Puppet Their whole philosophy is about avoiding attachments that you're afraid to lose. Close friendships are inappropriate, but even if you formed one, it just made you more vulnerable if they were to die or fall.
@Puppet That's closer to Luke's teachings than the Republic Jedi who prevented their members from forming attachments in the first place. A person who has only one close bond and no experience managing emotional connections is a fragile, desperate person.
@Puppet Luke Skywalker disagrees. That's why HIS Jedi Order is different.
@Puppet Poorly written dialogue aside, Anakin didn't "break the rules and act like an insane person" until he was already fully turned by Sidious. He was emotionally inexperienced, and therefore emotionally immature. He fell in love, as people do, and because he was raised to eschew attachments, he didn't know how to deal with it. He ended up having to pursue that relationship in secret, in FEAR that the Jedi Council would discover it, punish him, and keep him away from her, causing ANGER AND BITTERNESS. It wasn't his relationship with Padme that caused his fall, but the Jedi proscription against attachment.
Luke's iteration of the Jedi Order, as you can learn from any number of videos on this channel, rejected the rule against attachments, viewing them as a source of strength, not weakness. This is fantastic, because inexperienced, naïve, emotionally fragile Jedi are not ideal for resisting the temptations of the Dark Side, and that's exactly what an isolated, monastic lifestyle creates.
The Jedi have suffered several Schisms that have lead to large numbers of dissatisfied Jedi turning to the Dark Side, even creating the order of the Sith. With this kind of history, it's hard to argue that the Jedi teachings were flawless.
I wanna bring up revan, even tho the whole reason the jedi order redeemed him was because he was the only way to beat malak
In the old republic era they tried to redeem a lot of the jedi turned sith. Perhaps its things like this throughout galactic history that makes them not even bother
In count dooku and Anakin state the Jedi council failed them.
Count dooku case is that the Jedi and Jedi council should have taken and looked into seeing that the sith were coming back and that they should have been better prepare.
And in Anakin case they should have done more to ease his fears of losing people he loves so that he didn't need to turn to ultimate power and they shouldn't have pushed heavily on his been the chosen one because that put a lot of pressure on him to be the very best of them all.
“I’m sorry, Annikan. For all of it”.
Obi-wan only did the right thing according to what he was taught. Dogmatic faith blinded him as much as anger blinded Anakin.
If the jedi didn't try to assassinate the duly elected Chancellor and seize control of the Senate then they wouldn't have been eliminated from existence .
The jedi spent several millennia persecuting non-jedi force users .
Guess you haven't read what the new Jedi order did in the EU.
Comments pouring in so fast that Stupendous Wave won't notice I love him.
I think "the negotiator" acting like this means he either willingly or unwillingly acted out of anger even when not explicitly stated. Not trying to reason because "Anakin is lost" is dealing in absolutes, its the same thing he accuses Anakin off.
Obi Wan supposedly being the perfect Jedi shows how far they really fell from grace
Yea I think he had love/attachment for Anakin ("You were my brother") that lead to disappointment and anger he didn't know how to manage because of Jedi repression.
I don't think Anakin was a good example for this. He was still young and hotheaded. When he turned on Mace Windu, he said what have I done.
That shows that he regrets what he did. I would say before his mustafor injuries he is more in the dark Jedi category and even after that, he never cared about the Sith and he was never happy.
Now Good ol' Palpy is a WHOLE! different story.
Unlike Siths before him who were groomed, trained or traumatized into the costum.
He's a psychopath.
Any Sith born and raised in the right circumstance could be good. EXCEPT Palpatine and Vitiate.
SWTOR players: Won't stop me from trying!
Jedi Knight can do this to Lord Praven, Lord Scourge (partially--he joins primarily due to knowing what the Emperor will do), and also redeem the fallen Jedi in Chapter 3.
The simple answer is that the Jedi were lazy and couldn’t see that they were using fear (a path to the dark side) to fuel the exile of fallen Jedi.
Laziness expedites the deterioration a lot of the best Jedi face because they can’t control their emotions.
The Jedi are evil for sure more so than the Sith I mean look at what they do to children steal them from their parents thus not letting them see their parents ever again and putting these kids through all these trials including the worst one the trial of flesh but the most evil thing they did was blame Ahsoka for something she didn’t do in season 5 the end in the clone wars show
7:38-7:49 For me, the answer is neither and both. What I mean is, there really is such a thing as being too far gone. That said, it is possible to repent from even the furthest reaches of darkness even at the latest stages in life (which is admittedly *extremely rare* ). That is to say, "being too far gone" is based on the willingness to repent, not the severity of the evil. The problem with most Sith is that either they never feel guilt and remorse, or when they do, the only thing they can do is double down.
I think a large aspect here is also what the Sith will do while they're still Sith. Anakin had just killed a bunch of children. Many, many children. Even if he was ultimately redeemable, he killed so so so many people until he was redeemable. Is it worth letting Vader kill so many people until the stage where he's redeemable again? Do you essentially "sacrifice" that many innocent lives for the sake of Anakin?
We see Star Wars through the lens of the characters and their character development. While I completely agree with and appreciate what you're saying regarding the failings of the Jedi in general (I think you had a video also sharing why Obi Wan was wrong about Anakin being redeemable and Luke being the one to do it and so Obi Wan taught him the force ghost as a kind of apology or feeling bad because he didn't try to redeem Anakin), there's a larger issue here.
Even if Vader was redeemable, would you allow him to murder so so so many people until he was at a stage where he was redeemable? You know every Sith will do something like that. So the 'greater good' is to kill a Sith because even if they can be redeemed, they will have killed so many other innocents before they will be. It may not be always who they will be, but it's who they are at that moment. Not saying I necessarily agree with that, just saying it's a solid argument.
The truth is that it was bad scriptwriting on George Lucas’ part as to why lines like “only the sith deals in absolutes” exist. To be fair I don’t think Anakin and Obi wan would have been able to talk it out on Mustafar anyways. I still love the prequels despite the flaws though.
You missed one trom legends. In the Thrawn trilogy Leia mentions a dark jedi that had gotten as far a Dagobah, and while who is unknown, the cave is so strong in the dark side because Yoda killed him inside the cave.
I understand not trying to save someone like sidious who has only ever been a dark sider and I understand their hesitation for not wanting to open themselves up to people like vader or dooku but I think fallen jedi, especially recently fallen at least deserve a chance
Great video! What is the outro music? It goes hard.
Yaddle tried to offer Count Dooku redemption in "tales of the jedi."
Funnily enough I just redeemed and turned a dark side user in a specific star wars game. I'm really really enjoying this experience for my very first time. If someone could guess the exact game I'm playing well I can't pay you but it would be a fun little challenge. Been balls deep into Star Wars as of here lately and I've been enjoying a lot of the games. Been playing
Battlefront 2 and replaying Jedi: Fallen Order
@Textthenumberabove.1 have I also been selected for not being a dumbass?
The single greatest flaw in the Jedi was their belief that there is a dark or light side. There is only the force. The dark side is a distortion, a twisted reflection but it is still the force. Redemption is universal as is life, as is the force.
The reason's actually very simple.
Sith give themselves into the dark side in full.
According to Jedi dogma, when someone turns to the dark side like that, the dark side will forever dominate their destiny.
The reigning interpretation of that dogma at the time of the prequel trilogy was that returning from going that deep into the dark side meant you were fully 100% lost and that the dark side had full claim to your soul.
Therefore, according to the Jedi during the Prequels, there was no point in even attempting to turn a Sith to the light because the Force itself wouldn't allow it.
Dark Jedi were considered to not have gone deep enough into the dark side to have been taken by it unless "proven" otherwise.
A Sith returning to the light at that point would have been considered heresy, and the Jedi would likely eliminate the former Sith just like they would a currently active Sith.
I’m kinda sad iffy on things like Sith being redeemed in the ancient past. You’d think if famous Jedi were redeemed Yoda would know about it and wouldn’t have warned Luke that the Dark Path would forever dominate them.
The only mitigating factor is that a lot of these past redemptions were under special, unique circumstances: Ulic lost his powers and couldn’t give in to the Dark side anymore, Revan had his memories and possibly personality utterly changed, and maybe Bastila being tortured into the dark path rather then willfully and clearheadedly choosing it makes it less a fall and more a traumatized lashing out that with help she was able to overcome.
Ive always take obi wans “only a Sith deal in absolutes” to be more of a “only a Sith deals in SUCH absolutes” (I.e. in reference to Anakin pretty much directly threatening him.)
I wonder what a Je'daii would think about both Jedi and Sith and as to whether or not either could be redeemed and brought back to the balanced center of the Living Force.
Actually seen a few in legends meet modern jedi and it’s always horror mixed with disgust. The je’daii were the perfect force wielders, they didn’t rely on the light or the dark, rather they used both borderline indiscriminately so whereas the sith became pure evil and the jedi became fanatics and represented the very reason people fear pure light since it can be just as bad as the darkest of the dark side
The Je'dail?
@@elijahhernandez906 you have the internet figure it out instead of acting like an idiot and posting that knowing full well it’s not rocket science to do a google search
@elijahhernandez906 The first order of force users before they split into the jedi and sith we know today in legends
The Jedi are the Je'daii, They jedi order came about from the Je'daii
September 11 2001 ,or December 7th 1941 ,or April 12th 1861 . All started something horrible .
Fear to Hate to Distraction to Death to War to Fear to Sadness to Suffering to Unjust to Revenge to Death to War.
As Brither Malachai once said, "Show no pity to the pitiless. Save redemption for those that seek it."
Luke showed mercy and compassion to Vader, and it saved him.
True love and compassion is what the original Jedi order was missing
Jacen Solo
I just want to say that the Jedi believing the Sith should be extinct means they are no better than the Sith
Ben Kenobi: …Then the Emperor has already won, you were our only hope.
Luke: Only a Sith deals on absolutes. I will do what I must.
Ben Kenobi: I taught you too well…
I remember learning about one Sith Lord who had joined the Jedi after a Jedi knight or master had asked them to join. I can’t remember who though
that was drath revan, Flint, Darth Sajar, Kel'eth Ur, Darth Gravid. once These are 15 Sith (And Dark Force Users) Who Turned Good jedi
In my opinion, its the jedi who are evil, not the sith
I couldn’t agree more and there are many or several videos on UA-cam talking about how and why they are evil I mean the steal babies from their parents thus not letting them see their parents again and they walk up to the parents asking them if they want to give up their kids and the most evil thing they did was blame Ahsoka in the end of season 5 for something she didn’t do
Can anyone be redeemed with enough effort and love? Yes. Would sith want to be redeemed? No. But my question is Do they DESERVE redemption. Vader did horrible things even if Luke redeemed him too the light. He made all the wrong choices, and in the end he just gets redeemed? The Universe at large would never have forgiven him and he would have never deserved it. So i believe NO Sith do not deserve redemption if they've already committed a crime beyond such redemption they do not deserve it. Justice would never be served if they were just forgiven. I can only name one sith lord who could be redeemed and even then he almost caused the end of a planet. And that would be Lord Praven from SWTOR online. He nearly destroyed tatooine but also spared lives felt regret and even surrendered after his defeat at the hands of The Hero of Tython and willing gave the codes that would stop the doomsday weapon dispite being ordered to destroy them he felt you deserved better he had honor. In the end you need to look at Sith based how they act and the deeds they've done. Praven was lucky to have had The Hero of Tython stop him before that line was crossed and he also felt regret and remorse for his actions. Sidious on the other hand had already gone too far even before he was even the emperor so he would never be deserving of redemption. So in the end you need to weigh the crime along with the individuals mindset and intentions. In my opinion someone like Praven deserves redemption because the planet wasn't destroyed and he felt great remorse for his actions and they were legitimate and he did all he could to right his wrongs later on by giving the codes to stop the planet killer and even becomes a lightside ally later on in the story. Vader and Sidious on the other hand killed thousands and destroyed planets without remorse even if vader was manipulated theres no redeeming a child killer in my mind and Sidious well he's just evil in carnate Both did not deserve redemption even if Luke did bring Vader back to the light at the end. The crimes of the past do not get erased because you suddenly make one good decision after a life of bad ones.
This guy needs his own tv show! Or work for Star Wars officially 👌
Vader wanted to come back to light, he just felt he was too far gone. Luke was able to show he could. Revan was wiped and able to be shown the error of his way while in that state... So most sith unless forced to see their mistakes probably won't be able to forced to change
"Obi-Wan once thought as you do." Anakin/Vader to Luke in Return of the Jedi. Hmmm I don't seem to recall Obi-Wan treating Anakin much like Luke did on Endor. Obi was pretty confrontational right out of the gate.and was not very forgiving...or even asking why the hell he had turned and turned (in Obi's eyes) so quickly. We the audience had been seeing his slow turn ever since Episode II through the Clone Wars. Aside from calling him his brother and telling him he loved him he didn't really try and turn him back....oh sure "Palpatine is evil!" he shouts. "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" Anakin replies. "Then you are LOST!" Not much of an attempt in my opinion. Anakin's eyes were STILL his normal shade of BLUE throughout their fight until after the high ground fiasco. This is why he really is still 75% Anakin only 25% Vader at that time. Give or take ofc. Right in the beginning Obi could have used what Anakin had just done to Padme to possibly bring hum back....especially if he had pointed to her lying unconscious and said to him Palpatine had bullshitted him this whole time and caused him to bring about his greatest fear. Even pointing out something like "Think about it! HE was behind everything from the beginning! He had Dooku hire the bounty hunters to attempt Padme's assassination! He started and prolonged the war! Do you really think he is going allow Padme to live if you join him?" Before allowing Anakin to even reply follow that up with something like "Come on Anakin....we have to save Padme and go kick that liar's ass upside down! Three or four Stone Cold stunners and a saber blade up his wrinkled ass!" I do think something along those lines might have made Anakin snap out of it and realize big bro Obi was right and turn his anger and rage on the man who had been playing him like a stradivarius for 13 years. Anakin and Obi drop Padme at Polis Massa with Yoda and Bail Organa (not before Padme comes around and see the man she loves is back, safe and about to go do the right thing. Anakin and Obi head back....catch Sidious with his drawers down (not literally thank God) and end the bastard. I think with 13 years off pissed off Anakin coupled with his being the Chosen One along with his brother Obi backing him all the way the fight would be over quick and Sidious would be dead in a puddle of his own blood, piss and shit. Messy death but he deserved it. Bail would clean up the rest....not Palps messy remains but the political side of it and he (along with a rested Padme) would see to it the Jedi would be exonerated and Order 66 revoked. Just my humble take on it....or what I WISHED had happened anyway. Thanks to anyone who bothered to read my long ass ramble here lol.
Had Ahsoka gone to Mustafar in Obi Wans place to confront Anakin she would of succeeded or if Obi Wan put a tracker on Padmes ship like he did to the Slave One and then follow her to Mustafar and land on a separate landing pad he wouldnt make it look like Padme had Obi Wan come to kill Anakin
One of the key elements in redeeming someone, even a Sith, is FORGIVENESS. As a Jedi I learned for myself that in order to truly redeem someone you must first forgive them.
Based on all the info I have I believe that I would be one of the non-canon Gray Jedi, I also believe that someone who is Sith is too far gone to be redeemed in most situations
Gray Jedi don't exist in the way you think. They are nothing more than light side users who left the Jedi Order but still continue to serve the light (ie. Ahsoka).
Anyone who thinks that a Gray Jedi is someone who can use both dark side and light side powers is kidding themselves. It is impossible to try to walk the line between light and dark. The dark side is a bottomless pit, only a true Sith accepts this and willingly jumps headfirst into it. Those who try to "moderate" their dark side powers to be a "grey" Jedi are merely hanging on to the edges of the pit. Eventually they will be unable to hang on for any longer and will either climb out (redeem themselves in the light side) or fail and unwillingly fall into the dark (being driven mad in the process).
I think it depends. If a Jedi has just recently fallen to the dark side and not committed massive atrocities yet, it might have made sense for the Jedi order to try and redeem them. However, if a sith has already intentionally killed many innocent people in their lust for power, such as Anakin helping to kill nearly all of the Jedi and younglings in the temple, then redemption is simply not an option unless the sith seeks forgiveness in their own right, in which case maybe they can rot in a cell rather than be impaled by a lightsaber, but "redemption" might still be off the table.
It's the same reason why it's almost a meme that Luke could redeem Vader despite all the innocents that Vader had murdered. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you understand the deeper meaning of it (which many casual star wars fans don't).
At the end of the day, you need to face the consequences of your crimes. And if your crimes include the intentional murder of many innocents just so you can gain more power, then the only "redemption" you need is a lightsaber through the throat. This goes for Sith, Jedi, dark Jedi, etc. They all should be held to the same standard, even if that's not always how it happened.
But neither yoda nor Obi wan did what they said they would do they could of saved a lot of innocent people the whole Jedi save lives thing
I always assumed the the dark side was like a drug, extremely addicting and near impossible to put down, unless they themselves want to leave it.
Nope they just like freedom and not the Fundamentalist Christian-like ways of the oppressive Jedi.
that is true. Dark side is similar to performance enhancing drugs that boost the users to insane heights. For example, Dark Rage, a popular dark side ability of Sith Marauder can destroy a platoon of soldiers with extreme ease. There is a good case to compare Sith marauder to Eversor Assassin of WH40k fame both of them are hyper violent
I have always seen it in a similar vein to anabolic steroids: makes you stronger, but you're REALLY paying for that power.
@@perdues Nope, you found the person who realizes that only fools deal in absolutes.
@perdeus before spouting nonsense, actually read what satanism is. Look up the 7 tenants of The Satanic Temple
Ether Way I Would Never Have Handled Things the Way Obi-wan Did! Both with Anakin's Training and if He Ever Went to the Dark Side!
This is why Luke was so necessary in the galaxy of star wars .
So Luke was a Grey Jedi? Mix between light and dark
I think it's more about poor writing by Lucas. It gets hard as a Star Wars fan to line things up, b/c he did such a bad job at the longer story than "A New Hope"...
No one that slaughters children or their innocent loved ones is deserving of being reached out to for redemption. You either earn that on your own or you dont.
Anakin failed himself through his arrogance and refusal of wise advise repeatedly. Frankly the only thing Kenobi did that was "wrong" was not ending Anakin on Mustifar. But that was not the Jedi way so I dont blame him.
No, he didn't. The Jedi Order did a hell of a lot of things that pushed him to this:
1. Trying to keep him from Padme.
2. Refusing to free his mother from slavery, which would not have cost them that much in the long run.
3. Bashing him over the head with "You are not our perfect paragon of VIRTUUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEE!" regularly while disregarding that he was brought up as a damned slave.
The Jedi made their own downfall by their own actions and inactions.
@@christopherkidwell9817
1. Nothing kept him from Padme. He could have left or owned up to it and taken the results. Nothing forced him to do what he did.
2. Trying to force the matter would have gotten the Hutts involved and potentially started a war. And if Anikan cared sooooooo much about mommy he would have left the order as was his right and done it himself.
3. He was lazy, arrogent, and full of anger. He was given tools to help. He refused to use them. He always assumed he knew best. He was not bashed over the head. He was a whiny brat being educated.
And even if every single thing you said was true it still does NOTHING to absolve him. Having an abusive childhood NEVER ill say again real slow N.....E.....V....E...R absolves someone for murder of the innocent. You just parroted the same excuse many spousal abusers and child abusers use. They were abused themselves so its " not their fault "
@@madhatter1057 how? Could they not just buy Shme? Or perhaps say it is a Jedi matter, washing the republics hands of responsibility
@@ntfoperative9432 Watto had no desire to sell. And saying its a Jedi matter does NOTHING to stop a war with the Hutts who absolutely would target anyone they felt would hurt the Jedi including republic assests.
@@madhatter1057 I'm sure even Watto would sell for the right price
Here is my gripe. Yoda and Kenobi both were trying to climb a steep hill. Yoda while better than Sidious as a duelist is worse than Sidious as a force user. If he had spent time trying to bring him back to the light, he likely would have been killed. As Yoda likely would have conflict and from Star Wars, we know that being conflicted and unfocused nerfs your abilities.
This is even more true for Kenobi. He was punching above his weight class. In fact, I saw a video saying the only reason he won was because Kenobi was so focused on defeating Anakin as Anakin had a lot of conflict with him at that point. If Kenobi had been conflicted too GG Anakin gets no suit.
The jedi are arrogant. Their overly strict policies combined with their arrogance keep them (as a whole) from truly being one with the Force.
The Sith on the other hand are both arrogant and power hungry. This keeps them from forming real bonds with others, always fearing a knife in the back, keeps them from becoming one with the force as well.
True but I think the Jedi are worse than the Sith
@michaelverdon7252 two sides of the same corrupt coin
Key detail? When the sith and Jedi conflict, who suffers? Who's in the crossfire having to navigate relations with both? When they could turn on them both?
you can't change someone by loving them harder
Why you haven't made about anakin solo?
Star Wars Therory I think even did videos on this but Obi Won just acting like he had to end Vader doesnt sit right ... like when they were having that speech while in the middle of the lava... I feel Obi Won would actually have tried to reach his brother" ... maybe even agreeing that some things the Jedi do is wrong ... giving an opening for say Anakin (forget what we saw with Anakin at the temple during order 66) to "return"
"not only do they write the fallen ones off as failures..."
Theres many stories in legends and more of Jedi successfully returning to the light side. I mean....dude....does Revan ring a bell? Even when he was captured and tormented at the last, he sought to corrupt the emperor and poison his thoughts via the connection they had.
EDIT: And of course you addressed this very thing lol
Question and it’s probably a stupid question but what’s the difference between a Jedi, dark Jedi and a sith ?
That's (probably) one of the BIG draw backs of the Movie Modern Jedi as we know them.. seeing as the Ancient Order AND all the other Media like the books, comics and games there's ample times and chances to save fallen Jedi an even to them not too far down OR unique cases... SITH... Can and have been redeemed or least come to some kinda agreement.
Obi Wan an Yoda an how they all ACTED LEADING up to the end was just them being arrogant asses and utterly failing at their own tenets. He COULDA been saved here, HE NEVER WAS a common case, an Kenobi coulda and shoulda tried hard as he could to AVOID fighting Anakin. As Anakin was for sure "misguided" as it got. Must notve seen Anakin as THAT much of a brother
Ahhh, So Luke was extremely cautious and weary of sith but had no exact placeable hate for them? He didn't act on absolutes it seems, he was already in a good mindset. It was why he still attempted to turn Vader, but he wasn't weak minded and palpatines attempts to make him act in violent aggression was minimal at best, no different from the jedis attempts at control through suggestion, despite knowing the only option was to disable Vader one way or another, his sense of morality and true sense of subconscious love for his own father was likely his fuel for the lighter aspect, meaning that while he could've offed him and turned subjectively, he chose to reconnect and get him tf out of there
The dark side clouds everything, impossible to tell the future is♎
Have to subscribe this video was very interesting
See... The paradox here? Obiwan: "Only sith deals in absolutes" Sith on average believe what? That their power is unlimited, there's no limitations, right? So therefore in an ironic sense, Absolutes do not exist with them, and they could be greater if they DID NOT seek control over others and had it in themselves, and didn't seek to rival the Jedi. The more you think about it, the more you'll realize Light and Dark force users in totality was and still IS very rare.
They already tasted that sweet power
The dark side leads to freedom and being the Ubermensch
I think Revan is the way his actions although sith were based off altruistic actions and the greater good. He was much like Anakin only more respected which is what Anakin was shut off too unfortunetly ...
Uhmmm Revan? Well it was more brainwashing then redeeming but still, and back in the OR days, the Jedi often tried to reach out to the Sith asking them to stand down and seek the light again, in the clone war days well....There wasnt exactly many Sith to redeem.
7000 years is long ass time to hold a grudge.
If the woman he “loved” could pull him back right then obi wasn’t about to do it
Obi-wan only truly gave up on Anakin after he defeated him on the final episode of kenobi. He also allowed Reva to change when she brought luke back.
Anakin is his own worst enemy and he didn't want Obi wan was giving.
Obi-Wan was already seeing Anakin as lost in ROTS. He went to Mustafar to kill him, lecture him on his betrayal rather than reason with him, and claimed he was lost when Anakin said the jedi are evil instead of Palpatine.
@@Elemento0420 But the Jedi ARE evil. Look at the actions and INactions they took. They should have told the Old Republic "No, not getting involved in your war, it is none of our business as peacekeepers!"
@@Elemento0420 Killing of children is always a bad thing and going off in the deep end. Assisting in a murder of a Jedi Master and killing of children would have Anakin imprison in a Jedi prison for the rest of his life if he was captured. Also Death Penalty would be on the table as well
@@Elemento0420 I can't disagree with that, but Obi-wan cleary says in kenobi "then my friend is truly dead" after Anakin tells him he wasn't his failure, inferring Obi-wan at that moment gave up on him. He then says "good bye Darth"
The man murdered children he was gone. It took decades of evil before his son could save them.
I think anyone can come back to the light, but you don't need to be a Jedi to do so.
SWTOR sees that otherwise^^
The Jedi don't believe that love and emotions lead to the dark side they believe that failure to control those emotions and the desire to cling to and dominate the things you love leads to the dark side. Bastilla loved Revan, Obi-Wan loved Satine.
Which is why they forbid love and emotions, because its the path towards the dark side so ya they do believe that it leads to the dark side, which it does, from a certain point of view.
@@Vakaria-plays well they forbade attachments if you could love and not become emotionally attached then try to slaughter 100's of kids to keep that attachment they don't seem to care all that much but most people fail. While it is considered legends now, Ki-Adi-Mundi had 5 wives and visit them not just for procreation so if a jedi master could maintain marriages rather than just donate dna to help his species it seems like the problem is getting to attached.
Obi-Wan loved Satine, but he gave up that relationship for the Order because he knew the Order wouldn't allow such a relationship. Revan was pre-Ruusan reformation. The Jedi Order at the time of the prequels was very much against all emotion simply due to the risk of failing to control them.
@@Vakaria-plays Which is completely the wrong way to go about it. Blocking up emotions is the surest way to make them control you. The right way is to understand the emotions and their origins.
I think that's why Jedi fallen so easily to dark side. They're all stoicism and no emotional intelligence.
@@Mark73 I agree with you, i feel like you write as if i believe that the Jedi are right in their ways, which i am not. But i completely agree with you that blocking emotions or simply pretending they are not their is just adding steam to the boiler that one day will blow up.
The Jedi aren't afraid of love; remember, Anakin said they're encouraged to love. Love and attachment are two different things though. There's a reason Catholic clergy take a vow of abstinence; its very hard to devote your whole life to helping the community and to balance that with maintaining a healthy relationship. Now...imagine those same people are super-powered and your potential problems are ten-fold.
Both sides are unbalanced the original way was balanced in both
This makes me wonder about the Hero of Tython's actions regarding Lord Praven. Lord Praven was a Sith Pureblood -- there really shouldn't be anyone closer to the dark side, right? Yet the Hero of Tython can redeem Praven. Granted, that's done in Legends I guess, so it might not have any bearing on the new canon, but it's still an interesting counterpoint, that someone raised from birth as Sith could be redeemed.
The Jedi practice the sin of Lie. They are no angels. (PEO ll, Esq) Life is destruction then Life. Grey
I believe that it all depends on the the background of the Sith that the Jedi try to redeem. The perfect example is of course Darth Vader and his love for his son Luke that redeemed him, then there is Darth Revan who was redeemed through a mind wipe. Of course the rest are as we see are too far gone.
Actually... Nothing in the Sith Code mentions the Dark Side, it's just the sith culture that obsesses over it. The sith code is passion > strength > power > victory > Freedom through the force. Interestingly if the Sith code is approached from a perspective of gentility (strength under control and creating stable power), then the sith and Jedi codes seem somewhat convergent. Applied Knowledge is strength. Knowledge of psychological motivations means that subsurface peace is a paradox at best and most often an illusion. Now therefore, "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" would wind up affirming "peace is a lie, there is only passion". Ironically, an undefeated light side Sith would satisfy the code and go on to become one with the force. But who'd allow such an abomination?
Funnily enough, at least in Legends, Light Sith were a thing, and the rest of the Sith saw them as an abomination and eliminated the whenever they popped up.
It is a bit fair for the Jedi to consider the Sith as lost causes considering that usually they have done some pretty f***ed up shit by the time they became Sith.
As long as they're still breathing there is slim new hope left. That is where the Jedi fail. Luke's redemption of his father illustrates this, Vader the vilest Jedi killer of all, became Anakin again who destroyed the Emperor. The most vicious Christian killer in the First Century was Shaul of Tarsus. The most eloquent missionary, the Apostle Paul. They are one and the same man, and he never forgot this. Anyone can be redeemed.
I love seeing Darth Malgus easy my second favorite sith
if the Sith only deal in absolutes, that makes the Jedi closer to the dark side than they realize since they vehemently believe that there can only be the light side of the force. they talk about how Anakin was meant to bring balance but also strike down any Sith they come across considering this to be the will of the force itself. both sides are flawed in their ideals
I HATE it when they always try to redeem a Darkside user....
The Jedi does not want to redeem the Sith Luke Skywalker saved his father Darth Vader and he was a Sith