Thanks again for watching! If you're new here, subscribe to the channel so you don't miss out on any ARPG findings (I typically play Diablo 2, Diablo 4 and now PoE2). I appreciate it! @Woolie 's video first discussing this: ua-cam.com/video/BQX-47SUw48/v-deo.html
dont forget the same way armour can mitigate by 90% you can also amplify by 1000% i am using rapid shot that is half fire and half physical and only 21% attack damage each hit is so small that the amplification is huge and i focus on attack speed and defenses intead of mroe dmg because im dealing 10x dmg , if they buff the armour formula they will buff the ascendancy too
Hi! I was the original poster of the comment at Woolie's channel with my calculations so he decided to do his own testings to check it. It's always amazing, that when you talk to other warrior player, there is a strong possiblity that he has a degree from maths and physics, we always need to do calculations and spreadsheets for a class that's supposed to be "big hammer, big damage!". Thanks for you video, hope GGG will adress the entire armor stuff and that node which is pure garbo.
Thanks for your original post! Good to know the history. And yeah... There's gotta be something about power fantasy and nerds wanted to do big bonks. But that's above my pay grade.
I keep saying this. but GGG needs to throw out the armour formula and make it work the same way as resistances. 75% Phys DR baseline that can be scaled up to 90% with investment. Break armour should ultimately work like penetration with "break armour below zero" allowing you to penetrate below 0. They brought their weird clunky armour formula from POE1... this is a new game, lets try something new that is way more understandble.
To me it sounds kind of boring if it should work as resistance, just another dmg type you need to stack resistance for But yeah they need to do something and is probably planing too but have not had the time, good thing it's just in early access 😄
This has the same energy as when you realize crushing impacts makes boneshatter impossible to use because enemies cannot be primed for stun if you have this node resulting in the reality that a 40% more multiplier is gated behind totally removing the most intuitive clear source from the game.
I get that the hardcore peeps here may not care to hear this take on this issue, but as a semi casual player, I really hope they go back to the drawing board on armor from the standpoint that it is completely unintuitive, confusing, and actually very frustrating for their newer players. Even just throwing in a tool tip somewhere with a couple sentences explaining that beeg armor numbers on top of beeg life numbers does not equal tanky boy...oddly. It is fine that they have a unique take on armor but suddenly going from fine to getting blown up repeatedly, all without a death recap screen, is not really the most elegant way to explain how your system works. POE 2 is potentially drawling in a lot of new players, and a bigger player base is good for the health of the game going forward. But I have seen firsthand how frustrated my friends have gotten at some of these unintuitive, seemingly hidden interactions can be, with nearly half of the friends I had at the start of the beta already giving up on the game. The game is awesome and is a lot more approachable than POE 1. So, sad really because once that bridge has been burnt, it tends to stay that way.
Armor definately needs a rework, but it's just a numbers thing so it shouldby be that much of an issue, GGG are back in the office now so will be interesting to see how things go moving forward
@@MacroBioBoi the whole point of armor system for this class is for minions. it's NOT for melee. The main point of warbinger is ancentral spirit skill which is totem skill that allow you to summon minions. if your using a bunch of minions and they have like 1000-damage vs 8000 armor. breaking armor would significantly increase dps of your minions. warbringer's gameplay is Scepter+One hand mace. it's like melee minion focused with some melee and if ur using 1 hand maces that have like... 500 damage at best. so 2000 ish damage. armor breaking when ur damage is low is good. if you want to play BIG damage values, you should be playing Titan ascension or Monk or actual melee classes with big damage multipliers. not this class.
@@dodang_9147 Im sorry but ancestral spirit does not make an army of melee fighting mobs. In fact, only one of them (the gorilla) actively melee attacks as its primary focus. Also the exact example I used was for basic mace strike (one of the smallest damage modifiers you can use) and you still eclipse the pinnacle boss' armour value. Im not sure this is the correct understanding, I think this system just needs to be changed entirely.
@@MacroBioBoi warbinger is designed to be melee-summoner. it's designed to use one hand mace with one handed scepter. Because one hand mace has low damage values, it will gain benefits from armor breaking because base damage is low. The main damage is skeleton reavers which do MANY small hits which again make armor breaking beneficial. Ancestral spirit is totem that can use font of rage which boosts rage of skeleton reavers which skeleton reaver gain damage and attackspeed per rage. so the idea is to have huge amount small hits and than crush enemies armor. if all your hit are 1000 or 2000 damage. armor will crush it but it's like 10 small 2000 damage hits vs 8000 armor. that is what armor breaking node is about. in fact Kripp made video entirely about this class. there is nothing that need to be reworked. the armor and class works exactly as intended. the class is going to excel at using skills that do 150 small hits over 1 big hit. Currently only good small hit melee to go for is minions however there are number of classes in the game that are unreleased. They may have skills that hit like 50 times per second but do low damage. a armor breaking class like this would turn that useless low damage hit skill into high damage skill.
@dodang_9147 Finding the current best use case for a bad ascension, is not the same thing as divining the intent of the developers, nor does it make that decision, valuable.
I was playing with my new ranger friend end of cruel act 2 last night, they just clear the whole screen basically as I follow them on my molten blast/perfect strike warrior with nothing to do and I basically just have to wait till they can't kill an elite or boss in seconds to show off how fast I can kill them when I get time to charge up my perfect strikes lmao. But when they died on spires of deshar it literally was like WWZ, an entire pack swarms up and hits me faster than I can run away or swing my molten blast even with having gone out of my way to take even more attack speed than my guide even suggests, they kept interrupting every swing that would have hurt or killed one, causing me to take another potion and run away again to charge up another swing, which then also gets interrupted etc. I don't even have a method to out position my enemy??? I guess my optimal play was I could have run all the way to the map start to see if only 1 followed me at a time. 🙄
So, this suggests that the time you take armor break into negative armor is something you use to increase the damage of a machine gun build. As in, as many shots of as small a base damage as possible, though you'd balance it out. It's still a gimmick not worth doing, but it is amusing to know and in theory could have use for a minion build, since you can get so many more little attacks in a given amount of time.
Thanks for your deep dive. I never took the time to research why it felt so week. It just felt week and i did moved the points to warcry, seams like it was a good desicion.
I can't shake this feeling that since poe 2 was like 5 years in the making, it's been a separate code branch full of tech debt of all the patches to poe 1 it's missed in that time
There is a passive skill really close to the start that has multiple 20% more armor break so to spend an ascendacy point on 5% more is trash. I expected that you gained like 50% more damage once negative their whole base armor but was crushed when i realized my damage went nowhere . I assumed confuming fully broken armor for 50% more damage would become 100% because its not only broken but double the value. I was sad to see iy gave me about zero damage at 70k dps
Thank you so much for this video. I was planning a crossbow warbringer build and was looking at negative armor break to factor into my boss damage setup and wasn't sure how that would work. This has let me know, both that I probably should wait for likely changes to how armor works as a defense before exploring that, but also that I want to scale attack speed and hit frequency rather than hit damage is planning to use armor break as its value will diminish even if they move the formula to the POE1 coefficient. With armor piercing rounds, along with artillery ballista, +1 totem modes, and +attack speed for totems I was already leaning this way.
I don't have any hard datamined numbers for you, but from casual gameplay using the node that breaks 50% of enemy armour on Heavy Stun (plus some incidental "increased armour broken" on the tree) I've gathered that endgame bosses usually hang out around 20,000 armour.
the more complex you make something, the more likely that thing will turn out wrong, with the elemental resistance and the penetrate mechanics all is linear and clear, and work perfectly fine, the actual armor system instead, from both your own character and enemyes, it's not clearly explainet in the game, and don't even work well, it's need to be completly rethinked, something the easy way is also the better way
I have both my Warbringer and my Titan sniffing close to 90 now and while I did feel armor sucked on my warbringer I made the decision to go balls deep into it with the titan. I was running 10 room ultimatums well before level 85 (I did post one of the runs) with just around 3k life and 40k+ armor unbuffed. The REAL issue is that armor is too specific in its scope. It is actually really good at what it does but it ONLY protects against physical HITS (and through heatproofing notable fire hits as well) but not anything cold/lightning/chaos. Furthermore sometimes enemies that actually DO physical damage apply it in the form of a degen making armor completely useless as there is no "hit" to mitigate. This isn't really a bash on armor but on the endgame design along with the skilltree shoving us into that form of defense while letting us think it will be up to the task. My titan did end up doing the "left hook" up the outside to grab the shield/armor/es cluster and the armor/es/recharge on the inside as well and is now much more comfortable with 3.5k hp and 2.3k es most of which come from a really sick hybrid shield. It also helps that active blocking is part of the playstyle for me as I use resonating shield (with armor explosion) + boneshatter for clear. My warbringer on the other hand has been specced out of the armorbreak ascendancy the last week since it doesn't pull its weight after they "fixed" the repeat explosions but I will be going back into it and trying to make it cooperate with herald of ice if I can get enough freeze sources (don't feel like buying a "polcirkeln" for something that is likely to get nerfed soon(tm)..) Edit: the real value is armorbreak is to create a "stack" to consume with "exploit weakness" supportgem on big hitters like hammer of the gods OR to repeatedly proc armor explosions if you have a rapidfire "consumer" of those stacks up (such as orb of storms if your warbringer feels like using a lightning attackskill to break armor, might give this a try with flickerstrike or any of the crossbow/bow lightning spammers)
I think what GGG is trying to solve after all these videos is how to rework armor in a way that makes armor stacking is desirable. A simple DR equation means there will need to be a cap on how much armor you need, so the game becomes "solved", and it seems that GGG likes some of their systems to be unsolvable to force you to make choices. Unfortunately now, as the math is working, armor is useless for the player and armor breaking is redundant. I'm eager to see what solution they will apply to this problem.
Yeah I went away from armour break on the ascendency and am using jade stacks, totem spirits and dr from totems which is a good time in my opinion. Still breaking armour easily with splinter on totems. Big fan of infernal legion on the spirits.
idk why armor isn't just physical damage mitigation? it seems like it's designed to be that way. if they want big hits to rip through armour you could quite easily make it take overkill into account for armour pen.
So based on what I am hearing here, with regards to the damage increase modifiers upon lower weapon tool tips; is the accountable damage increase (in conjunction with replacing 2hand nodes for one handed nodes) a big enough increase to justify ditching the strength sink giants blood required to use 2handed, and just swap back to a standard one hand and shield, saving those points and putting them elsewhere on warbringer?
love the vid. as a number geek this was really entertaining. cosidering GGG would probly not want a super broken node, i think they would make it about +30% dmg increase after fully negative armor.
So if they end up fixing the damage scaling value of armor to the POE1 coefficient of 1/5 instead of 1/12, I guess this tells us that an armor breaking character and especially a negative armor breaking character should use skills and weapons with faster attack speed and smaller damage hit values. So for example the crossbow skill armor piercing rounds, in addition to being a source of armor break, has a 550% attack speed multiplier, and does 20-30% of hit damage each round depending on gem level, and is an example of a skill that plays really well into this formula, but mace slams that do many times the weapon damage and hit very slowly are extremely poor options.
but the crossbow skill clearly say that if more than 1 frag ( usually 10 frags per attack) intend to hit a single target : all hits combine into one hit. so it won't work :(
@@DarthonRamoi You're confusing two skills here. Not fragmentation shot (the shotgun), there's a machinegun shot early game that shreds armor with a high rate of fire with very weak individual shots.
So... If you were to use a low damage weapon with a very fast attack speed, you would get a 90% damage multiplier? Assuming mobs retain the same 90% maximum armor reduction cap. Would this perhaps make quill rain a decent weapon under specific circumstances? Or intentionally run maps that have enemies are armored, so that their armor can be broken to -30k and you actually might get a decent multiplier on a normal weapon
Basically the ascendancy makes you do 100% physical damage plus the percentage the armor would've mitigated. Seems pretty intuitive. I think it's meant for fighting stuff that's a similar level to you.
Problem with that is that players and monsters have absurdly different numbers theyre dealing with. Monsters do way less damage and have way more health and have the numbers advantage. Armour makes sense for the player (at least it would, if the formula were better) to mitigate the tons of smaller hits. Players have a lot more damage than monsters even pinnacle bosses. So armour is far weaker on mobs than on players. Meaning armour break and this node are far weaker for the player than for monsters.
Funny, cause i didn't know about this armor calculations but i had an idea to make a warbringer with crossbow and armor piercing rounds, which is a fast attacking low damage skill, this would work well with Imploding Impacts
Why not make the negative value scale infinitely. So that the longer you are in combat, the more damage you do? It could scale really well with attrition too.
I appreciate very much your work. If GGG makes trials so hard that nobody even wants to complete the last one and...then you see that this ascendancy doesn't even work or has no sense.....
That node as such is a total nonsense and should be changed into something more logical and usable. Or the negative armor should be computed differently. I actually am currently using Perfect Strike and I can see that there is no reason to break armor of white creatures, because Perfect strike does so much damage at once, that it completely ignores their armor.
So I don’t play POE 1 or 2 I have dabbled in 1 but one once and didn’t really get hooked. Now that said I’m not surprised that that stuff is broken in POE 2 considering the skill tree but I wouldn’t expect something as big as this to have slipped though the QA testing.
Nice work, but i think there is a bit more to the picture...which does more against an enemy with 100 armor? 100 dmg at 1aps or 50 dmg at 2 aps? we have a speed vs big hit trade off here...can consider 1h + dance with death, tremors (if it worked)...whirling assault does a bunch of tiny hits...rain of arrows + ripwire totems seems like it'd make sense....in general, you gain value the more you can partition your physical damage into smaller faster hits (which feels dumb af for a mace).
So there are comparisons where you can make the higher aps do more damage, but none of these are real game scenarios. It's never 100 vs 50 with a 2x multi of attack speed. It's the difference between 3 1000 aps and 1 20000 aps.
@@MacroBioBoi I think you mean 2000 aps :D ... consider rapid shot, at level 20 deals it has 40% damage effectiveness with 60% converted to fire. essentially 16% of your base phys damage per shot. against high armor targets that damage is nearly all mitigated. if ePDR is enemy physical damage reduction from armor, eFR is enemy fire res, and H is heat the increase per hit would be (.4*(1+ePDR) + .6*(1+.07*H)*(1-eFR))/(.4*(1-ePDR) + .6*(1+.07*H)*(1-eFR))-1 w/naked tree and pure phys weapon. with .75, 0.3, 20 (pretty realistic) that's roughly a 54% more dmg at full break. Sure you could go AoF, but your gonna have a hard time also getting pierce/terrain chain/attack speed stack from tree. which is better? idk, but given a lot of ele skills only convert a portion and the fact that warbringer has 'all damage breaks armor' makes me think they were thinking something of the same line. Might not even need to think of stretch cases with new batches of skills/weapons. It doesn't have to be just faster attack speed, just more hits.
@@rr00676 but it becomes even less valuable as you seek to scale ele damage. You wouldn't really care about getting a 50% multi for 40% of your damage. Its only value is against a target with many very small attacks that are below the base armour of the target. Most monsters don't have a lot of armour to begin with. The "use cases" are all suboptimal or non-existent in real game scenarios. Even warcries with full scaling get up to around 3k physical damage at level 20, which is at or bigger than most monsters armour. And they start with a base damage of ~60.
@@MacroBioBoi 1. 50% multi of 40% of your total damage is effectively 20% MORE TOTAL DAMAGE...in the above example it is not 54% more of the physical portion, it is 54% more total damage per hit...going from 0 armor to fully negative still yields 21% more total damage 2. for RF: martial tempo, heft, fresh clip, ricochet, bullseye, longshot....even pin if you use combat frenzy + with charge infusion are all sources of effective damage that are damage type agnostic 3. crossbow and projectile damage tree nodes are damage type agnostic 4. curious if seismic even works given 'hits ignore' line 5. 'most monsters' are white and get melted regardless, utility becomes more valuable 6. certainly can gain a bunch of potential with new skill gems or supports. more obvious ways of extracting value 7. IRL and optimization are determined by the constraints you impose on your character. One could just abstract away enough constraints and say this video contains no valuable information it'll map and boss worse than archmage spark/howa gemling. I am not necessarily trying to optimize a skill here or overall character, I am saying 'How can i extract the most value from the node while still having a 'good enough' character?'. If i wanted to optimize rapid fire I can't think of a class that would be better than deadeye or gemling. I also do suspect the idea of building hybrid damage characters were a part of its design
At first I dont believe Asmongold said about Warrior sucks, He just have skill issues. but now I'm at level 89 and I can tell he is totally right! IT SUCKS
I expect this will be fixed/addressed, but it's so weird so see them repeating the same armor mistakes they finally fixed in PoE like a year ago. I wonder if them fixing it in PoE1 and the development of PoE2 just didn't develop simultaneously and it was "good enough for now" and they knew they'd circle back? Since PoE2 was initially being designed as a massive update to PoE, this seems possible.
But you do still break that 800~ish armor extremely fast with the 10% break, I do still think it's a good node even if not that viable in a game where bosses take seconds to kill.
Got a hard time with warrior. I used these ascendancy point and wondering if it was better to switch to warcry or totem. i know how armor work in POE 1 the difference is small until you have very big armor or very little damage. however i tough the calculation for negative armor could have been different. these point could be great with small damage but high attack speed maybe? Thy for you work.
Armor as it is should be more valueable overall wich means that armorbreak would become stronger. In addition would the other melee weapon skills that come with the full release inclued more faster attacking strike skills or classical cyclone/bladestorm. Frecrent small hits should scale fantastic with negativ armor but there is no skill in the game atm wich would profit from this. Lets hope they fix the armor value for the future so we can benefit offensivly and defensifly from it
I actually tried this yesterday. Levelled a Warbringer through acts 1-3 using crossbow/bow skills. Even getting a frenzied rain of arrows off on a boss with fully negative armour did very little. Hopefully armour buffs also buff this interaction as you said
Negative armor makes sense to me. You calculate how much damage would have been mitigated had they had the same positive armor than you add that damage to the current incoming damage as if they had zero armor
Its not about how the concept of armor breaking works, it's about how much you get depending on the damage you are dealing, Tl;dr is that yes if an enemy takes 20% less damage from their armour then they effectively will take 0% less damage after armour break, and then 20% INCREASED damage after it goes into negative, totaling to about a 40% DMG increase, the issue comes with how the armour formula works, the more damage your hit deals the less the armour reduces, remember that 20% damage reduction from armour i was talking about? Basically with the current armour formula it means that if you increase your damage enough (lets say double your damage) the monster's armour will now only reduce your damage by about 12%, by this logic breaking their armour into the negative will result in a total dmage increase of 24%, so by doubling your damage you are gaining a 24% dmg increase from breaking armour instead of the 40% dmg increase that you had, IE: by dealing more damage you are gaining way less from breaking armour, dealing more dmg=gaining less damage % increased and as shown in the video this can go as low as 2% or even less! Making negative armour break a very very Low damage increase and armour break even worse when it comes to damge increase!.
And on top of that the Ancestral Spirits ability just doesnt work at all, they last as long as the totem and have linked life too. When they get summoned they just do a dumb animation that takes forever and then do about 100 dmg and then dissapear, theres almost nothing good about them except that they look cool.
My question is what armor should do in poe 2? Should it make you unkillable like in poe 1? Or Should they just get rid of armour break from mob affix pool? Also im curious on what diablo 2's armor system was like From what i remember, you still took damage even if you had high amount of armor
The current state of POE 2 armour is the same like itemization in D4. Every other game is telling you that if your reduction of percentage, then it is percentage. In POE 2 it is one big lie. In this is a crime to make mechanics like this in a game which has 10 years of experience.
@@MacroBioBoi so do you think poe 2 armor should mitigate all damage like in poe 1? You can tank everything to zero damage Or Keep poe 2 armor, but get rid of mob armor break and reduce heavy ragdoll/knockback?
Played warbringer from start, the shouts are nice the block is nice the armor break isnokay but below zero does nothing. Titan gets 50% more from passives and 15% more hp, crushing blow and more they neednto update the warbringer with some more useful stuff
or use minions... which multiplies your attack-speed 10 fold if 10 minion attack same target with -armor than there is witch that does minion builds builds better so yeah.
Damn i feel like warrior is even more half baked now. Thats disappointing. Was armor breaking early into my char and felt like it fell off at some point. Makes sense now.
@MacroBioBoi that seems like a very odd decision :-(, but explains why big, melee mobs still hit like a truck, no matter how much armor I stack, while small ones do nothing at all -_-. Seems like energy shield is the only real defense that matters in this game (so far, besides resistances ofc) :-/
@@flowqi212 yeah which is why everyone stacking energy shield because to tank big hits, you need big life pool. if you want tank small hits then evasion & armor are best because. if you take 100 small hits and ur evasion is 80%, you block 80/100 small hits. same for armor. armor & evasion are basically small hit defence layers and ES is big hit layer. since small hits are pointless if u have good mapping build, ES is only defence that matters. Life is other stat that matters but stacking hp is VERY hard because there is no max hp nodes or ways to build hp.
Yup. That's also why anything that breaks armor at the cost of damage isn't worth considering, since doing more damage per hit means ignoring more of their armors damage reduction anyway. Now, it's worth remembering that's damage per hit, not damage per second, fast attack speed low damage will absolutely want armor breaking effects, since they suffer so much more reduction from enemy armor.
I think all defensive layers should be weak. Then ggg wouldnt struggle so much at balancing mosnter damage. Like archnemesis. Many monsrers deal iver ten thousand times more damage than other monsters. In the same map and same difficulty tier. Having a monster challenge a ci monster with 32k es while npt always oneshotting anyone else is as ludicrous of a task as a boss attack having to challenge an armour wearer while not always oneshotting those who dont. There isnt phys conversion for all builds. We dont want these layers. We want some defensive layer. But not 11 like in poe 1. And mf on top of that. I want to focus on buildi g offensive power. And let ggg be able to balance the game properly at the same time. Perfect.
So unless you are relying on a high attack speed AP round crossbow you won't see an appreciable bonus from that node. Just take Pile On and don't bother trying to go negative.
Ggg just isnt capabale of making a good warrior archetype. Warrior ascendancies are very underwhelming specialy warbringer. Warrior and merc side of tree is also very bad compared to rest of the tree. And worse of all the warrior skills or should i say mace skill are extremly boring and not fun to play. I hope they will improve this and i hope axes and swords wont be this boring and unfun.
Let me guess, you got one-shot by some elemental attack in juiced up map ... or you got stuck in terrain during a ritual? ... That's usually when I want to rage quit as 78 Titan -_-
@Kvartsb 😄 I reached endgame yesterday with my new Spark Sorc, but I have to say it doesn't really feel much better somehow. With 1k life, 2k energy shield and resistances in the 40+ it's a one-shot madness. Act 1-3 in cruel felt like a breeze with warrior, but I never got the same feeling with Sorc. The only reason I can play maps are the unique gloves I found that basically insta electrocute mobs -_-. It probably gets better with better gear, but after about 30h SSF warrior is more fun to me o_O
Great stuff. I almost started a totem warrior too but decided against it because of similar reasons (armour be bad atm). I also made a poe2 music video that happens to feature you as well.
I thought this node was so cool, thinking it let you break below 0 with no limit. Basically being a way of ramping your damage in a unique way. Instead, it is literal garbage. The absolute worst ascendancy node in poe 1 or 2. Damn.
Hilariously my level 90 warbringer is absolutely destroying tier 18 maps, with a full juiced 30 point atlas but I'm not using this, just cause you choose an ascendency doesn't mean you are shoehorned into one style of play. I'm using a giants blood turtle charm build with max block and the corpse explosion warcry so I've been oblivious to this problem. Mines full out melee with the corpse explosions just supplementary but Seems like krip found a good minion build too So since it seems the only way for the warbringer is up, pretty sure the class will be fine especially when armor gets looked at which it obviously desperately does.
Nobody here is talking about the meta builds where tryhards follow guides to trivialize content. We're talking about cool, interesting, and fun builds. The problem is, the cool, interesting, and fun builds mostly suck in this game. Just because you CAN respec a warrior into a viable build doesn't mean the game is fine.
Negative armor makes sense to me. You calculate how much damage would have been mitigated had they had the same positive armor than you add that damage to the current incoming damage as if they had zero armor. This would mean that if they buffed armor it would also increase damage from negative armor
Not only does armour not work as a defensive layer, they also created a situation where one ascendency will see a large change in its' damage output if they ever fix the armour formula.
Technically negative armor does *not* make sense, if you wear anything on you, it will add some defense. Unless what you wear are spikes pointed at you, so any hit punctures you, which kinda works like impale from poe1. It shouldn't be an actual negative value, it should maybe "Consume Broken Armour debuff to apply a 5% increased physical damage taken" for some seconds that stacks independantly. Something that would with decent investment keep it at 20-25% (because it's technically last damage calculation). Literally anything but reversing default armor formula lol
@@a.x.w considering the whole point of armor is to block small hits and if ur running 10 small hit minions, than your armor does something but if your trying deal big 1 hit melee than it does nothing.
@@dodang_9147 I'd argue the point of armour is to increase your ehp against physical damage. Unless it's for roleplaying reasons, it makes zero sense to me that it's ineffective against larger hits.
@@a.x.w you can't block physical damage. physical damage and chaos damage is like true damage. it's best type of damage to deal because it is VERY HARD to mitigate it. the only way to mitigate it is to have big health pool/energy shield pool and lifesteal or energy shileld regain mechanic. that is how they balanced it. that is why if u go to tree that says lifesteal = instant, it has huge negative so so lifesteal+big health pool is hard to get. leeching is hard stat to get. same with max hp which is why most people going ES since ES is easier to get. Chaos is little worse than phy because technically, you can get chaos res but it is VERY rare stat.
I think it may be functioning as intended. Ascendancy passives that do well in the mid game but fall off the more powerful a build gets aren't unheard of. The "ignore resistances on crit" nodes from templar in PoE1 and Monk in PoE2 come to mind.
I respect your crediting of the original video and creator, but I would be careful linking anything related to Woolie. That guy has recently been doubling down on some weird alt-right bigotry thats super cringe. Some examples of this would be his video titled "some clarifications" that he goes and defends DR Disrespect, and then a few months ago he was in the comments of an Ian Fujimoto video fat shaming him, despite the video being about his weight loss journey. He was a big creator within the Risk of Rain 2 community, and so people there are already pretty aware that he has some really poor takes, but i guess since he's not as well known within the ARPG scene his history is also not as well known. If i were you, I would steer well clear of that guy.
Thanks again for watching! If you're new here, subscribe to the channel so you don't miss out on any ARPG findings (I typically play Diablo 2, Diablo 4 and now PoE2). I appreciate it!
@Woolie 's video first discussing this: ua-cam.com/video/BQX-47SUw48/v-deo.html
dont forget the same way armour can mitigate by 90% you can also amplify by 1000% i am using rapid shot that is half fire and half physical and only 21% attack damage each hit is so small that the amplification is huge and i focus on attack speed and defenses intead of mroe dmg because im dealing 10x dmg , if they buff the armour formula they will buff the ascendancy too
Hi! I was the original poster of the comment at Woolie's channel with my calculations so he decided to do his own testings to check it. It's always amazing, that when you talk to other warrior player, there is a strong possiblity that he has a degree from maths and physics, we always need to do calculations and spreadsheets for a class that's supposed to be "big hammer, big damage!".
Thanks for you video, hope GGG will adress the entire armor stuff and that node which is pure garbo.
Thanks for your original post! Good to know the history. And yeah... There's gotta be something about power fantasy and nerds wanted to do big bonks. But that's above my pay grade.
I'm indeed a Titan with a diploma in physics 😂
To be fair, the other classes do have similar calculation needs too
I keep saying this. but GGG needs to throw out the armour formula and make it work the same way as resistances. 75% Phys DR baseline that can be scaled up to 90% with investment. Break armour should ultimately work like penetration with "break armour below zero" allowing you to penetrate below 0. They brought their weird clunky armour formula from POE1... this is a new game, lets try something new that is way more understandble.
To me it sounds kind of boring if it should work as resistance, just another dmg type you need to stack resistance for
But yeah they need to do something and is probably planing too but have not had the time, good thing it's just in early access 😄
Stupid idea
This has the same energy as when you realize crushing impacts makes boneshatter impossible to use because enemies cannot be primed for stun if you have this node resulting in the reality that a 40% more multiplier is gated behind totally removing the most intuitive clear source from the game.
I get that the hardcore peeps here may not care to hear this take on this issue, but as a semi casual player, I really hope they go back to the drawing board on armor from the standpoint that it is completely unintuitive, confusing, and actually very frustrating for their newer players. Even just throwing in a tool tip somewhere with a couple sentences explaining that beeg armor numbers on top of beeg life numbers does not equal tanky boy...oddly. It is fine that they have a unique take on armor but suddenly going from fine to getting blown up repeatedly, all without a death recap screen, is not really the most elegant way to explain how your system works.
POE 2 is potentially drawling in a lot of new players, and a bigger player base is good for the health of the game going forward. But I have seen firsthand how frustrated my friends have gotten at some of these unintuitive, seemingly hidden interactions can be, with nearly half of the friends I had at the start of the beta already giving up on the game. The game is awesome and is a lot more approachable than POE 1. So, sad really because once that bridge has been burnt, it tends to stay that way.
Armor definately needs a rework, but it's just a numbers thing so it shouldby be that much of an issue, GGG are back in the office now so will be interesting to see how things go moving forward
Watched the whole thing as I was planning Warbringer - Thank you Macro!
Gl gl!
@@MacroBioBoi the whole point of armor system for this class is for minions. it's NOT for melee. The main point of warbinger is ancentral spirit skill which is totem skill that allow you to summon minions. if your using a bunch of minions and they have like 1000-damage vs 8000 armor. breaking armor would significantly increase dps of your minions. warbringer's gameplay is Scepter+One hand mace. it's like melee minion focused with some melee and if ur using 1 hand maces that have like... 500 damage at best. so 2000 ish damage. armor breaking when ur damage is low is good.
if you want to play BIG damage values, you should be playing Titan ascension or Monk or actual melee classes with big damage multipliers. not this class.
@@dodang_9147 Im sorry but ancestral spirit does not make an army of melee fighting mobs. In fact, only one of them (the gorilla) actively melee attacks as its primary focus. Also the exact example I used was for basic mace strike (one of the smallest damage modifiers you can use) and you still eclipse the pinnacle boss' armour value. Im not sure this is the correct understanding, I think this system just needs to be changed entirely.
@@MacroBioBoi warbinger is designed to be melee-summoner. it's designed to use one hand mace with one handed scepter. Because one hand mace has low damage values, it will gain benefits from armor breaking because base damage is low. The main damage is skeleton reavers which do MANY small hits which again make armor breaking beneficial. Ancestral spirit is totem that can use font of rage which boosts rage of skeleton reavers which skeleton reaver gain damage and attackspeed per rage.
so the idea is to have huge amount small hits and than crush enemies armor. if all your hit are 1000 or 2000 damage. armor will crush it but it's like 10 small 2000 damage hits vs 8000 armor. that is what armor breaking node is about. in fact Kripp made video entirely about this class.
there is nothing that need to be reworked. the armor and class works exactly as intended. the class is going to excel at using skills that do 150 small hits over 1 big hit. Currently only good small hit melee to go for is minions however there are number of classes in the game that are unreleased. They may have skills that hit like 50 times per second but do low damage. a armor breaking class like this would turn that useless low damage hit skill into high damage skill.
@dodang_9147 Finding the current best use case for a bad ascension, is not the same thing as divining the intent of the developers, nor does it make that decision, valuable.
just imagine if the current warrior is actually the intended experience and they tone down all the other classes to be on par...
At least we would have poe1 :)
@@quincestopher8892 from my limited experience melee classes in poe 1 are even shittier, GGG actually does not know how to balance melee.
And tone the mobs speed abit to warrior speed. Monster running at u like a zombie in world war Z.
I was playing with my new ranger friend end of cruel act 2 last night, they just clear the whole screen basically as I follow them on my molten blast/perfect strike warrior with nothing to do and I basically just have to wait till they can't kill an elite or boss in seconds to show off how fast I can kill them when I get time to charge up my perfect strikes lmao. But when they died on spires of deshar it literally was like WWZ, an entire pack swarms up and hits me faster than I can run away or swing my molten blast even with having gone out of my way to take even more attack speed than my guide even suggests, they kept interrupting every swing that would have hurt or killed one, causing me to take another potion and run away again to charge up another swing, which then also gets interrupted etc. I don't even have a method to out position my enemy??? I guess my optimal play was I could have run all the way to the map start to see if only 1 followed me at a time. 🙄
@@LastAphelion Just pretend warrior doesn't exist in PoE2. Because that's what GGG is doing.
So, this suggests that the time you take armor break into negative armor is something you use to increase the damage of a machine gun build. As in, as many shots of as small a base damage as possible, though you'd balance it out. It's still a gimmick not worth doing, but it is amusing to know and in theory could have use for a minion build, since you can get so many more little attacks in a given amount of time.
Thanks for your deep dive. I never took the time to research why it felt so week. It just felt week and i did moved the points to warcry, seams like it was a good desicion.
I can't shake this feeling that since poe 2 was like 5 years in the making, it's been a separate code branch full of tech debt of all the patches to poe 1 it's missed in that time
There is a passive skill really close to the start that has multiple 20% more armor break so to spend an ascendacy point on 5% more is trash. I expected that you gained like 50% more damage once negative their whole base armor but was crushed when i realized my damage went nowhere . I assumed confuming fully broken armor for 50% more damage would become 100% because its not only broken but double the value. I was sad to see iy gave me about zero damage at 70k dps
Thanks for testing this, but don't use the poe fandom wiki. It has ads and is outdated / is not maintained. poewiki is the poe 1 wiki
Thx for the recommendation. Definitely just hit the first recommended link.
Thank you so much for this video. I was planning a crossbow warbringer build and was looking at negative armor break to factor into my boss damage setup and wasn't sure how that would work. This has let me know, both that I probably should wait for likely changes to how armor works as a defense before exploring that, but also that I want to scale attack speed and hit frequency rather than hit damage is planning to use armor break as its value will diminish even if they move the formula to the POE1 coefficient. With armor piercing rounds, along with artillery ballista, +1 totem modes, and +attack speed for totems I was already leaning this way.
I don't have any hard datamined numbers for you, but from casual gameplay using the node that breaks 50% of enemy armour on Heavy Stun (plus some incidental "increased armour broken" on the tree) I've gathered that endgame bosses usually hang out around 20,000 armour.
the more complex you make something, the more likely that thing will turn out wrong, with the elemental resistance and the penetrate mechanics all is linear and clear, and work perfectly fine, the actual armor system instead, from both your own character and enemyes, it's not clearly explainet in the game, and don't even work well, it's need to be completly rethinked, something the easy way is also the better way
I have both my Warbringer and my Titan sniffing close to 90 now and while I did feel armor sucked on my warbringer I made the decision to go balls deep into it with the titan. I was running 10 room ultimatums well before level 85 (I did post one of the runs) with just around 3k life and 40k+ armor unbuffed. The REAL issue is that armor is too specific in its scope. It is actually really good at what it does but it ONLY protects against physical HITS (and through heatproofing notable fire hits as well) but not anything cold/lightning/chaos. Furthermore sometimes enemies that actually DO physical damage apply it in the form of a degen making armor completely useless as there is no "hit" to mitigate. This isn't really a bash on armor but on the endgame design along with the skilltree shoving us into that form of defense while letting us think it will be up to the task. My titan did end up doing the "left hook" up the outside to grab the shield/armor/es cluster and the armor/es/recharge on the inside as well and is now much more comfortable with 3.5k hp and 2.3k es most of which come from a really sick hybrid shield. It also helps that active blocking is part of the playstyle for me as I use resonating shield (with armor explosion) + boneshatter for clear. My warbringer on the other hand has been specced out of the armorbreak ascendancy the last week since it doesn't pull its weight after they "fixed" the repeat explosions but I will be going back into it and trying to make it cooperate with herald of ice if I can get enough freeze sources (don't feel like buying a "polcirkeln" for something that is likely to get nerfed soon(tm)..) Edit: the real value is armorbreak is to create a "stack" to consume with "exploit weakness" supportgem on big hitters like hammer of the gods OR to repeatedly proc armor explosions if you have a rapidfire "consumer" of those stacks up (such as orb of storms if your warbringer feels like using a lightning attackskill to break armor, might give this a try with flickerstrike or any of the crossbow/bow lightning spammers)
I think what GGG is trying to solve after all these videos is how to rework armor in a way that makes armor stacking is desirable.
A simple DR equation means there will need to be a cap on how much armor you need, so the game becomes "solved", and it seems that GGG likes some of their systems to be unsolvable to force you to make choices. Unfortunately now, as the math is working, armor is useless for the player and armor breaking is redundant.
I'm eager to see what solution they will apply to this problem.
Yeah I went away from armour break on the ascendency and am using jade stacks, totem spirits and dr from totems which is a good time in my opinion. Still breaking armour easily with splinter on totems. Big fan of infernal legion on the spirits.
idk why armor isn't just physical damage mitigation? it seems like it's designed to be that way. if they want big hits to rip through armour you could quite easily make it take overkill into account for armour pen.
So based on what I am hearing here, with regards to the damage increase modifiers upon lower weapon tool tips; is the accountable damage increase (in conjunction with replacing 2hand nodes for one handed nodes) a big enough increase to justify ditching the strength sink giants blood required to use 2handed, and just swap back to a standard one hand and shield, saving those points and putting them elsewhere on warbringer?
love the vid. as a number geek this was really entertaining. cosidering GGG would probly not want a super broken node, i think they would make it about +30% dmg increase after fully negative armor.
So if they end up fixing the damage scaling value of armor to the POE1 coefficient of 1/5 instead of 1/12, I guess this tells us that an armor breaking character and especially a negative armor breaking character should use skills and weapons with faster attack speed and smaller damage hit values. So for example the crossbow skill armor piercing rounds, in addition to being a source of armor break, has a 550% attack speed multiplier, and does 20-30% of hit damage each round depending on gem level, and is an example of a skill that plays really well into this formula, but mace slams that do many times the weapon damage and hit very slowly are extremely poor options.
but the crossbow skill clearly say that if more than 1 frag ( usually 10 frags per attack) intend to hit a single target : all hits combine into one hit. so it won't work :(
@@DarthonRamoi You're confusing two skills here. Not fragmentation shot (the shotgun), there's a machinegun shot early game that shreds armor with a high rate of fire with very weak individual shots.
@@TestSubject06 ah i stand corrected ! true it does !
Amazing work as always!
So... If you were to use a low damage weapon with a very fast attack speed, you would get a 90% damage multiplier? Assuming mobs retain the same 90% maximum armor reduction cap. Would this perhaps make quill rain a decent weapon under specific circumstances?
Or intentionally run maps that have enemies are armored, so that their armor can be broken to -30k and you actually might get a decent multiplier on a normal weapon
Thanks for your hardworking 🙏
Basically the ascendancy makes you do 100% physical damage plus the percentage the armor would've mitigated. Seems pretty intuitive. I think it's meant for fighting stuff that's a similar level to you.
Problem with that is that players and monsters have absurdly different numbers theyre dealing with. Monsters do way less damage and have way more health and have the numbers advantage. Armour makes sense for the player (at least it would, if the formula were better) to mitigate the tons of smaller hits.
Players have a lot more damage than monsters even pinnacle bosses. So armour is far weaker on mobs than on players. Meaning armour break and this node are far weaker for the player than for monsters.
Funny, cause i didn't know about this armor calculations but i had an idea to make a warbringer with crossbow and armor piercing rounds, which is a fast attacking low damage skill, this would work well with Imploding Impacts
Why not make the negative value scale infinitely. So that the longer you are in combat, the more damage you do? It could scale really well with attrition too.
I appreciate very much your work.
If GGG makes trials so hard that nobody even wants to complete the last one and...then you see that this ascendancy doesn't even work or has no sense.....
That node as such is a total nonsense and should be changed into something more logical and usable. Or the negative armor should be computed differently. I actually am currently using Perfect Strike and I can see that there is no reason to break armor of white creatures, because Perfect strike does so much damage at once, that it completely ignores their armor.
So I don’t play POE 1 or 2 I have dabbled in 1 but one once and didn’t really get hooked.
Now that said I’m not surprised that that stuff is broken in POE 2 considering the skill tree but I wouldn’t expect something as big as this to have slipped though the QA testing.
Thanks for the insight
Nice work, but i think there is a bit more to the picture...which does more against an enemy with 100 armor? 100 dmg at 1aps or 50 dmg at 2 aps? we have a speed vs big hit trade off here...can consider 1h + dance with death, tremors (if it worked)...whirling assault does a bunch of tiny hits...rain of arrows + ripwire totems seems like it'd make sense....in general, you gain value the more you can partition your physical damage into smaller faster hits (which feels dumb af for a mace).
So there are comparisons where you can make the higher aps do more damage, but none of these are real game scenarios. It's never 100 vs 50 with a 2x multi of attack speed. It's the difference between 3 1000 aps and 1 20000 aps.
@@MacroBioBoi I think you mean 2000 aps :D ... consider rapid shot, at level 20 deals it has 40% damage effectiveness with 60% converted to fire. essentially 16% of your base phys damage per shot. against high armor targets that damage is nearly all mitigated. if ePDR is enemy physical damage reduction from armor, eFR is enemy fire res, and H is heat the increase per hit would be (.4*(1+ePDR) + .6*(1+.07*H)*(1-eFR))/(.4*(1-ePDR) + .6*(1+.07*H)*(1-eFR))-1 w/naked tree and pure phys weapon. with .75, 0.3, 20 (pretty realistic) that's roughly a 54% more dmg at full break. Sure you could go AoF, but your gonna have a hard time also getting pierce/terrain chain/attack speed stack from tree. which is better? idk, but given a lot of ele skills only convert a portion and the fact that warbringer has 'all damage breaks armor' makes me think they were thinking something of the same line.
Might not even need to think of stretch cases with new batches of skills/weapons. It doesn't have to be just faster attack speed, just more hits.
@@rr00676 but it becomes even less valuable as you seek to scale ele damage. You wouldn't really care about getting a 50% multi for 40% of your damage. Its only value is against a target with many very small attacks that are below the base armour of the target. Most monsters don't have a lot of armour to begin with.
The "use cases" are all suboptimal or non-existent in real game scenarios. Even warcries with full scaling get up to around 3k physical damage at level 20, which is at or bigger than most monsters armour. And they start with a base damage of ~60.
@@MacroBioBoi
1. 50% multi of 40% of your total damage is effectively 20% MORE TOTAL DAMAGE...in the above example it is not 54% more of the physical portion, it is 54% more total damage per hit...going from 0 armor to fully negative still yields 21% more total damage
2. for RF: martial tempo, heft, fresh clip, ricochet, bullseye, longshot....even pin if you use combat frenzy + with charge infusion are all sources of effective damage that are damage type agnostic
3. crossbow and projectile damage tree nodes are damage type agnostic
4. curious if seismic even works given 'hits ignore' line
5. 'most monsters' are white and get melted regardless, utility becomes more valuable
6. certainly can gain a bunch of potential with new skill gems or supports. more obvious ways of extracting value
7. IRL and optimization are determined by the constraints you impose on your character. One could just abstract away enough constraints and say this video contains no valuable information it'll map and boss worse than archmage spark/howa gemling.
I am not necessarily trying to optimize a skill here or overall character, I am saying 'How can i extract the most value from the node while still having a 'good enough' character?'. If i wanted to optimize rapid fire I can't think of a class that would be better than deadeye or gemling. I also do suspect the idea of building hybrid damage characters were a part of its design
At first I dont believe Asmongold said about Warrior sucks, He just have skill issues. but now I'm at level 89 and I can tell he is totally right! IT SUCKS
I expect this will be fixed/addressed, but it's so weird so see them repeating the same armor mistakes they finally fixed in PoE like a year ago. I wonder if them fixing it in PoE1 and the development of PoE2 just didn't develop simultaneously and it was "good enough for now" and they knew they'd circle back? Since PoE2 was initially being designed as a massive update to PoE, this seems possible.
Would this accendancy point make sense for physical minions build? Each minion should have lower single attack damage.
Kripp's Warbringer reaver is using this. When armor calc gets reworked, this node is definitely going to be viable.
@@josephreynolds2401 it technically already is viable. it's just that why play warrior minions when witch minions is 10x better.
"Never play this p.o.s.!" Got it, can do!
But you do still break that 800~ish armor extremely fast with the 10% break, I do still think it's a good node even if not that viable in a game where bosses take seconds to kill.
Should we be testing the viability of a build at such low lvls with low numbers?
Got a hard time with warrior. I used these ascendancy point and wondering if it was better to switch to warcry or totem.
i know how armor work in POE 1 the difference is small until you have very big armor or very little damage. however i tough the calculation for negative armor could have been different.
these point could be great with small damage but high attack speed maybe?
Thy for you work.
Armor as it is should be more valueable overall wich means that armorbreak would become stronger.
In addition would the other melee weapon skills that come with the full release inclued more faster attacking strike skills or classical cyclone/bladestorm.
Frecrent small hits should scale fantastic with negativ armor but there is no skill in the game atm wich would profit from this.
Lets hope they fix the armor value for the future so we can benefit offensivly and defensifly from it
I actually tried this yesterday. Levelled a Warbringer through acts 1-3 using crossbow/bow skills. Even getting a frenzied rain of arrows off on a boss with fully negative armour did very little.
Hopefully armour buffs also buff this interaction as you said
Negative armor makes sense to me. You calculate how much damage would have been mitigated had they had the same positive armor than you add that damage to the current incoming damage as if they had zero armor
Its not about how the concept of armor breaking works, it's about how much you get depending on the damage you are dealing, Tl;dr is that yes if an enemy takes 20% less damage from their armour then they effectively will take 0% less damage after armour break, and then 20% INCREASED damage after it goes into negative, totaling to about a 40% DMG increase, the issue comes with how the armour formula works, the more damage your hit deals the less the armour reduces, remember that 20% damage reduction from armour i was talking about? Basically with the current armour formula it means that if you increase your damage enough (lets say double your damage) the monster's armour will now only reduce your damage by about 12%, by this logic breaking their armour into the negative will result in a total dmage increase of 24%, so by doubling your damage you are gaining a 24% dmg increase from breaking armour instead of the 40% dmg increase that you had, IE: by dealing more damage you are gaining way less from breaking armour, dealing more dmg=gaining less damage % increased and as shown in the video this can go as low as 2% or even less! Making negative armour break a very very Low damage increase and armour break even worse when it comes to damge increase!.
@@cavebestiam4578 if i understand right, it mean a conflict between reduce armor and break armor ?
And on top of that the Ancestral Spirits ability just doesnt work at all, they last as long as the totem and have linked life too. When they get summoned they just do a dumb animation that takes forever and then do about 100 dmg and then dissapear, theres almost nothing good about them except that they look cool.
Nicely done
My question is what armor should do in poe 2?
Should it make you unkillable like in poe 1?
Or
Should they just get rid of armour break from mob affix pool?
Also im curious on what diablo 2's armor system was like
From what i remember, you still took damage even if you had high amount of armor
The current state of POE 2 armour is the same like itemization in D4. Every other game is telling you that if your reduction of percentage, then it is percentage. In POE 2 it is one big lie. In this is a crime to make mechanics like this in a game which has 10 years of experience.
@lorien6678 your statement didn't make sense
But ok
Thanks for the comment
Armour was basically evasion, in D2R.
@@MacroBioBoi so do you think poe 2 armor should mitigate all damage like in poe 1? You can tank everything to zero damage
Or
Keep poe 2 armor, but get rid of mob armor break and reduce heavy ragdoll/knockback?
I like my Warbringer so much. With turtle charm you can block everything, thats broken af
Played warbringer from start, the shouts are nice the block is nice the armor break isnokay but below zero does nothing. Titan gets 50% more from passives and 15% more hp, crushing blow and more they neednto update the warbringer with some more useful stuff
Damn, i‘ve started to play warrior, expecting to go full armor break on him with warbringer. Guess, not soon. Hello totems or war cry builds
GGG staff on PoE2 seem to have no clue how PoE1 works, and just copied shit over without knowing the basics. Mindblowing.
So this means if u had a skill that dealt a very small amount of damage per but but had high total damage this would be amazing.
Right now in game, that's just not a thing.
@MacroBioBoi yea not right now but some type spectral helix skill would def fit in.
Flickerstrike? Deals pure phys. hits fast and often, quarterstaves have high aps :P
edit: and of course, crossbow rapid fire and such =D
Honestly, the problem is not so much warrior as MACE being utterly wrong for how PoE 2 plays.
So if you can trade off damage for attack speed you can almost double your dps by this.
or use minions... which multiplies your attack-speed 10 fold if 10 minion attack same target with -armor than there is witch that does minion builds builds better so yeah.
I would rather play a Titan with Hulking Form and nothing else, than play a Warbringer with the whole ascendancy allocated.
I knew it smh lol I’ll be playing my poison ranger for now
Ooo!! Good stuff ❤❤
Damn i feel like warrior is even more half baked now. Thats disappointing. Was armor breaking early into my char and felt like it fell off at some point. Makes sense now.
If GGG does not make Warrior great. I’m never playing.
Thank ya sir
Wait, so this does also mean that the harder an enemy hits, the less value your armor has, right? 🤦♂️
Yep
@MacroBioBoi that seems like a very odd decision :-(, but explains why big, melee mobs still hit like a truck, no matter how much armor I stack, while small ones do nothing at all -_-.
Seems like energy shield is the only real defense that matters in this game (so far, besides resistances ofc) :-/
@@flowqi212 yeah which is why everyone stacking energy shield because to tank big hits, you need big life pool. if you want tank small hits then evasion & armor are best because. if you take 100 small hits and ur evasion is 80%, you block 80/100 small hits. same for armor. armor & evasion are basically small hit defence layers and ES is big hit layer. since small hits are pointless if u have good mapping build, ES is only defence that matters. Life is other stat that matters but stacking hp is VERY hard because there is no max hp nodes or ways to build hp.
Yup. That's also why anything that breaks armor at the cost of damage isn't worth considering, since doing more damage per hit means ignoring more of their armors damage reduction anyway. Now, it's worth remembering that's damage per hit, not damage per second, fast attack speed low damage will absolutely want armor breaking effects, since they suffer so much more reduction from enemy armor.
I think all defensive layers should be weak. Then ggg wouldnt struggle so much at balancing mosnter damage. Like archnemesis. Many monsrers deal iver ten thousand times more damage than other monsters. In the same map and same difficulty tier. Having a monster challenge a ci monster with 32k es while npt always oneshotting anyone else is as ludicrous of a task as a boss attack having to challenge an armour wearer while not always oneshotting those who dont. There isnt phys conversion for all builds.
We dont want these layers. We want some defensive layer. But not 11 like in poe 1. And mf on top of that. I want to focus on buildi g offensive power. And let ggg be able to balance the game properly at the same time. Perfect.
So unless you are relying on a high attack speed AP round crossbow you won't see an appreciable bonus from that node. Just take Pile On and don't bother trying to go negative.
People sure complain a lot about this perfect game
XD
Ggg just isnt capabale of making a good warrior archetype. Warrior ascendancies are very underwhelming specialy warbringer. Warrior and merc side of tree is also very bad compared to rest of the tree.
And worse of all the warrior skills or should i say mace skill are extremly boring and not fun to play. I hope they will improve this and i hope axes and swords wont be this boring and unfun.
Level 79 warbringer here. It is rough let me tell you. I actually rage quit yesterday and that is not like me believe it or not
Let me guess, you got one-shot by some elemental attack in juiced up map ... or you got stuck in terrain during a ritual? ... That's usually when I want to rage quit as 78 Titan -_-
@flowqi212 volatile plants, then those archers. With 40 chaos res. Fml not even fun lol
@@michaelpottorf4550 damn :-( this game ...
got to lvl 7 on a warrior then I rerolled 😄
@Kvartsb 😄
I reached endgame yesterday with my new Spark Sorc, but I have to say it doesn't really feel much better somehow. With 1k life, 2k energy shield and resistances in the 40+ it's a one-shot madness. Act 1-3 in cruel felt like a breeze with warrior, but I never got the same feeling with Sorc. The only reason I can play maps are the unique gloves I found that basically insta electrocute mobs -_-.
It probably gets better with better gear, but after about 30h SSF warrior is more fun to me o_O
Great stuff. I almost started a totem warrior too but decided against it because of similar reasons (armour be bad atm).
I also made a poe2 music video that happens to feature you as well.
I saw it! Thanks!
I thought this node was so cool, thinking it let you break below 0 with no limit. Basically being a way of ramping your damage in a unique way.
Instead, it is literal garbage. The absolute worst ascendancy node in poe 1 or 2. Damn.
me buy big dps weapon, me do more damage
Big bonk
Hilariously my level 90 warbringer is absolutely destroying tier 18 maps, with a full juiced 30 point atlas but I'm not using this, just cause you choose an ascendency doesn't mean you are shoehorned into one style of play. I'm using a giants blood turtle charm build with max block and the corpse explosion warcry so I've been oblivious to this problem. Mines full out melee with the corpse explosions just supplementary but Seems like krip found a good minion build too
So since it seems the only way for the warbringer is up, pretty sure the class will be fine especially when armor gets looked at which it obviously desperately does.
Nobody here is talking about the meta builds where tryhards follow guides to trivialize content. We're talking about cool, interesting, and fun builds. The problem is, the cool, interesting, and fun builds mostly suck in this game. Just because you CAN respec a warrior into a viable build doesn't mean the game is fine.
Negative armor makes sense to me. You calculate how much damage would have been mitigated had they had the same positive armor than you add that damage to the current incoming damage as if they had zero armor. This would mean that if they buffed armor it would also increase damage from negative armor
Not only does armour not work as a defensive layer, they also created a situation where one ascendency will see a large change in its' damage output if they ever fix the armour formula.
Technically negative armor does *not* make sense, if you wear anything on you, it will add some defense. Unless what you wear are spikes pointed at you, so any hit punctures you, which kinda works like impale from poe1. It shouldn't be an actual negative value, it should maybe "Consume Broken Armour debuff to apply a 5% increased physical damage taken" for some seconds that stacks independantly. Something that would with decent investment keep it at 20-25% (because it's technically last damage calculation). Literally anything but reversing default armor formula lol
@@a.x.w considering the whole point of armor is to block small hits and if ur running 10 small hit minions, than your armor does something but if your trying deal big 1 hit melee than it does nothing.
@@dodang_9147 I'd argue the point of armour is to increase your ehp against physical damage. Unless it's for roleplaying reasons, it makes zero sense to me that it's ineffective against larger hits.
@@a.x.w you can't block physical damage. physical damage and chaos damage is like true damage. it's best type of damage to deal because it is VERY HARD to mitigate it.
the only way to mitigate it is to have big health pool/energy shield pool and lifesteal or energy shileld regain mechanic. that is how they balanced it. that is why if u go to tree that says lifesteal = instant, it has huge negative so so lifesteal+big health pool is hard to get. leeching is hard stat to get. same with max hp which is why most people going ES since ES is easier to get.
Chaos is little worse than phy because technically, you can get chaos res but it is VERY rare stat.
I think it may be functioning as intended. Ascendancy passives that do well in the mid game but fall off the more powerful a build gets aren't unheard of. The "ignore resistances on crit" nodes from templar in PoE1 and Monk in PoE2 come to mind.
I respect your crediting of the original video and creator, but I would be careful linking anything related to Woolie. That guy has recently been doubling down on some weird alt-right bigotry thats super cringe. Some examples of this would be his video titled "some clarifications" that he goes and defends DR Disrespect, and then a few months ago he was in the comments of an Ian Fujimoto video fat shaming him, despite the video being about his weight loss journey.
He was a big creator within the Risk of Rain 2 community, and so people there are already pretty aware that he has some really poor takes, but i guess since he's not as well known within the ARPG scene his history is also not as well known. If i were you, I would steer well clear of that guy.
Oof, thx for the heads up.
You gonna cry about someone having a different opinion than you?
Small indie company.
My god guys... this classes showcases with NO GAMEPLAY is outrageous. It is incredible difficult to watch with no practical showcase of the build.
This isn't a build guide. It's a mechanics testing video.