Those hyperdrives were probably not nearly as expensive given the much smaller scale. Scaling it up to a massive carrier ship scale might require exponentially more resources and power.
@@adrianaslund8605 it doesnt need to be the size of a massive cruiser, we're talking about a collision at near-lightspeed _at the lowest_ , if not a superluminal collision (depending on whether the collision occurs in hyperspace or just in the acceleration towards hyperspace). The energy released by such an impact would be literally stellar in scale.
@@Magmafrost13 But only if you're far enough away to gain the necessary speed, but close enough not to disappear into hyperspace. The rebels did not know these parameters, nor if it was really possible. And Holdo didn't know it either, but she tried anyway. Maybe she's heard of some legends about ships crashing at the speed of light, and she's been trying to replicate them as a last resort to save her friends. And was lucky enough to be successful. This is my version of the story.
The First Order utilized resources left by the Empire in the Unknown Regions, such as shipyards and of course ships and weapons brought by the Imperial remnant which fled to that space.
Empire was hated by the galaxy that is the reason why they needed death star to maintain control over it. After second one destroyed and all of it top officers it was very clearly declared that empire lost the war. Not once in any star wars movie, had been mentioned that Empire remnants did what you just wrote.
ok the empire ruled only two-thrids of the galaxy that is canon, the emperor was interested in the unknown regions, where the Chiss and older civ including the parts of the old sith empire so the emperor was interested.
Reishadowen I dont understand why they dont just shoot out the bombs horizontally than "dropping" them, the whole concept of a bomber in space is stupid
The Sunless you're absolutely right. Very stupid of Poe to take out that dreadnaught. I mean, how much better for the resistance would it have been had that dreadnaught been involved in that space chase. Tons better, right?
Essentially, this tactic is too good to have never been used before. Even just taking thrusters and flinging a rock at Orbital velocities could do some damage to an unshielded ship. Before this maneuver was done, fans could just assume that there was a reason that this tactic wasn't done, but now, there isn't a reason. If it was a 1 in a million, then it would have been more effective to have done so many other strategies.
@@rhorynotmylastname7781 Yeah i bet there are hyperdrives out there barely funktioning, dont need to be stabel. dont tell there are no russians like peapol in star wars. Like yeah nuclear plane works if you remove lead shielding star wars
the "one in a million" line was said by a janitor in a room full of pilots and navigators, claiming how a move that literally happened again on the very next movie is supposed to be a rare sight. Incidentally he didn't even know how to fly a ship, as it was an established plot point of the previous movie how Finn needed Poe to escape. He also didn't know his own army had jetpacks, even though they had seen widespread usage during the clone war and galactic civil war eras. So I really don't get why people should take "one in a million chance" as anything more than a wild guess at best, if it even should be considered at all. Dumbest shit ever most people can't make shit up that incongruent even if they tried. Sequels apologists are on full cognitive dissonance
or even manufacture one solid tungsten rod, somewhere in 50-500 ton range. propel it FTL speeds to anything, it will destroy te target completely, even large solid planets. In SW the logistics and resources allows it to be done. This is what i hate in SW. they have means to do anything, but they don't use it.
*1. Hyperdrives are neither rare nor crazy expensive, and ships are neither rare nor crazy expensive.* The Episode 1 scene you reference was Qui-Gon looking for a very particular type of hyperdrive for a very specific ship: the royal cruiser. The rebels install them on fighters and lose those fighters on a fairly regular basis. The "Hyperdrives are precious" argument is therefore invalid. *2. The disproportionate power of this tactic shown in the movie would be highly effective on the death star.* You see no sign of the hyperparticles' destructive penetration attenuating along the length of any of the ships affected, and the Death Star dwarfs all of them, so the deeper you go, the more widespread the damage. If anything vital or prone to exploding (like the main reactor) got hit, it's game over. The "Wouldn't do anything to the Death Star" argument is therefore invalid. *3. A fully functional ship isn't required for this tactic.* A hyperdrive and a big rock would do the job. The "Ships are too precious" argument is therefore invalid. *4. The "polluting space" argument falls apart when you consider that hyperspace has previously been done from and into planetary atmospheres and directly out of another ship's hanger in the movies.* That, and the Episode IV explanation of how it isn't like "dusting crops" suggests that hyperspace accidents can and do happen, and the lack of planets pasted from hyperspace accidents suggests that *this entire plot point was, and remains, a visually beautiful but stupid twist in a movie full of them.*
Not only that, the hyperdrive in PM would have cost up to 20,000 credits (highly specialized and expensive) and even if it was the type in all ships, (it wasn't) it would still only be 13% of the total cost of an x-wing. (150,000 credits)
Yep. And this was just refuting the video's points. There are so many other problems with this scene. If hyper-ramming works, why did they just let their escort ships die for no purpose? Why wait until most of the resistance shuttles were destroyed before doing it? Why have a human do it when a droid could have done it just as well without losing someone important (not that I mind that Holdo won't ever be in another Star Wars movie)? Then there's "The Plan" that somehow Holdo and Leia had the whole time. Why make this plan at all? Why hyperspace into deep space (that somehow has a habitable planet nearby, making it *not* deep space) when you're almost out of fuel? Why have only two people know the plan? I could go on, but I'm just starting to rant. It's 2 and a half months since I watched it, and this movie still makes me angry.
ok, so let's do some thinking. On the battle of Coruscant, there were over 1000 separatist destroyers, each with a class 1 hyperdrive. each of those ships was 1/3 the size of the Raddus and could do plenty of damage. We see these ships go down regularly, the separatists are killing republic ships at a very bad ratio and it is obvious all their ships will end up destroyed. Why not do some hyperspace ramming then? The grand army of the republic had it's main military base in coruscant, along with the senate and jedi temple. Everything you have said backs this up, the separatists were not in any way short on hyperdrives and these ships would go down either way. The ships were large, they would do quite a bit of damage, breaking through many layers of coruscant and causing countless deaths and fires. These are the sort of plot holes left unanswered, and no matter how many unrealistic excuses you come up with they still break the star wars universe. Edit: Also, space terrorism would be a huge problem.
The sequels are legends. Nothing more, nothing less. Explains everything and leaves no holes. Just disney is too proud of their pile of shit to admit it
Hi Anakin Skywalker. If ramming was possible they would not use ships to ram into ships, they would use missiles. If something changes the lore, it breaks the lore. They did not use ramming because ramming doesn't work in Starwars lore.
if the SHRAPNEL from a hyperdrive ram could split a star destroyer in two, this does essentially invalidate every superweapon in star wars. it's even more powerful than the ridiculous xyston star destroyers in episode 9 because it essentially has infinite range. A large hyperdrive ram into the death star or starkiller base or any planet would likely damage it beyond repair no matter where it hit, and you can't shoot down a ship going faster than light. When even a small hyperdrive-capable ship has momentum comparable to the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs it makes you wonder, why would the empire even build a death star with its unimaginable maintenance costs?
Simple. No-one had though of this for Star Wars that much as it would invalidate every bit of it. Movies do not need to exist, books, games, it's completely worthless. The stories aren't needed, don't need to happen. If there is a problem, hyperspace-ram it. CIS rise? Hyperspace ram all their planets. Trade Federation blockades Naboo? Ram an N-1 Starfighter into each Lucrehulk class freighter/battleship, or just the Droid Control ship. CIS wanna win the war? Hyperspace ram Kamino, Coruscant, and a few more planets. Empire wants to end the rebellion? Start ramming random planets until they declare their surrender. Leia or Luke are discovered? Ram whatever they're standing on. Ram everything. Ram the black hole holding the galaxy together. That's how many think. The reason for ANYTHING HAPPENING IN STAR WARS becomes completely meaningless and unneeded. Why bother with having any story or saga at all if you can just ram it into oblivion the first chance you get. THERE, YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION. If George had this in mind when he made Episode 4, it would've ended over an hour earlier, and Episode 5 would be the rebellion hyperspace-ramming every planet controlled by the Empire, if we assume there's no care given to how many quintillions of lives will be ended with this method.
Simple. This is a space opera, and unlike Star Trek - the weapons are all plot devices, and not based more than loosely on any known technology. What stops the end of the light saber, it should be a death flash light. Just buy some popcorn and forget physics.
@@BeatAces which one? The stop lightsaber thing is well established because not only does it always stop but you need a whole other device to make it keep going and also that device breaks it when used… I think it was 5 times.
"in star wars there is no infinite money..." The empire in the nex movie: we build a death star that can contain an entire solar system to fuel it lazer beam that can destroy 30 planets at the time, and it can travel 4 bizillon times the speed of light.
Because not only did Empire not exist and didn’t want a 100% guaranteed destruction of anything really, capital ships one shots included, Republic also didn’t want a single shot kill of capital ships for half a cost of a singular fighter with a hyperspace engine
Yeah, you missed the fact that by NOT using this kind of tactic to engage targets like the Death Star or the fleet at Scarif the rebellion actually looses FAR more ships than it would have by sacrificing a single ship. The cost of losing those ships and their experienced crew is immeasurably more than the cost of losing a single transport that had been dedicated to the role of hyperspace ram ship. There's just no way you can make the argument that sacrificing a single ship is somehow more expensive than engaging targets with an entire fleet.
You don't need a ship. Any asteroid, even just weighing 2-3 tons, with a power source, some thrusters, and a hyperdrive engine, with an astromech to pilot it, would be enough. Two tons accelerated to .9999 C is effectively infinite in energy, it would create the raddus sized plot hole in any object it would be aimed at.
Uh, dude, if you accelerate _anything_ with mass to light speed, no matter how small it is, it's going to have infinite kinetic energy (which is why it's impossible in real life but is evidently possible in the Star Wars universe). A one gram projectile traveling at light speed could easily cleave straight through a planet, or kill everything on its surface. You could put a hyperdrive on a missile the size of a X-wing (or even smaller) and ram it into the Death Star, and the kinetic energy alone would destroy it. No shield, no matter how strong, would be able to stop it because it would be going up against _infinite_ energy. "Hyperdrives aren't some cheap, expendable technology." And yet, every X-wing has one. If you're willing to risk several hyperdrive-equiped X-wings in battle to destroy _one_ star destroyer, or a Death Star, you should be willing to spend a hyperdrive missile if it means taking out a powerful enemy ship which could potentially destroy several of yours, or even an entire planet. It should be obvious which option carries the greater potential cost.
Yeah well then explain the mass of a pothon and why arent we dying just taking light, if you say mass at speed of light have infitine energy you are just breaking a couple of quantum laws
+ manuel Naranjo Jimenez Photons have zero rest mass. So zero times infinity is... oh, my calculator broke. Which quantum laws, specifically, do you think are being broken here? I'd like some detail, because if you have a poor understanding of special relativity then I doubt you could have a strong understanding of quantum mechanics (especially seeing as special relativity and quantum mechanics are compatible, and the reason we have anti-particles). Dr Shaym, obviously hyperdrives work differently to our real world physics. It doesn't take infinite energy to get to lightspeed in Star Wars, so you're not going to get infinite energy out. This is obvious. I couldn't find a mass for the Raddus, but just the mass of its crew alone (1,000 people at 80 kg each) travelling at a mere 90% the speed of light would have 9.3e21 J of energy. That's 20,000 Tsar Bomba, which itself had a fireball radius of over 6 km! Assuming the fireball radius scales as the cube root of the yield, did you see the Raddus cause a fireball with a diameter of over 300 km? That's Over 5 of Snoke's ships in width, doesn't even count the dry weight of the Raddus and assumes a modest value for "lightspeed". Obviously using hyperdrives as weapons doesn't scale well, compared to the kind of ordinance a fleet typically carries. It was quite effective here, but it was clearly a move borne of desperation.
>No shield, no matter how strong, would be able to stop it because it would be going up against infinite energy. It's much worse than that. Infinite energy divided by finite numbers is infinite. The target would expand in a cloud of shrapnel in which every atom had infinite energy, and anything that atom touched would explode with infinite energy, etc... A ball of destruction would annihilate the universe. But, according to those same laws of physics, hyperdrives are impossible anyway, so we should assume that physics in the star wars universe is just different.
She is travelling at 7000000c (according to other video) and you say that you require a large mass for ramming? An ant accelerated to this speed is an ant with infinte kinetic energy.
Since when was Star Wars scientifically accurate? Travelling in hyperspeed is already imposible so perhaps in Star Wars universe you need a big ship to destroy something by ramming it in hyperspeed
@@hugothedog5258 since you defended the movie with science...... the point is, all the fans have is canon and you guys are trying to sound smart by using big words in a fictional universe but the flaw in your argument is why hasnt this been done canonically before in this universe. surely this was thought of before for this universe has had numerous space battles all through its galactic development. even larry niven has written this very method decades before this movie (see Kzinti lesson which was where this idea is point on point) and you guys call this as a holdo maneuver like shes the first person to have thought of this?
@@dalemoses2443 obviously you dont know the energy potential of an object travelling at the speed of C. try playing with universe sandbox and accelerate the tesla car to light speed and ram it at earth. that tiny mass will obliterate the planet like alderaan which brings the argument that if that is the case, whats the purpose of the deathstar if you can simply ram a meteor with lightspeed drives and send it to planets and obliterate them right?
So you can A, build a giant ship that needs thousands of crewmen to operate, needs many guns, munitions, shielding, power generators, a giant hyperdrive. That ship then might or might not destroy/damage enemy warship, while it risks being destroyed with all that expensive things on board. Or you, B, create a much smaller ship, using less material, smaller thus cheaper hyperdrive, no need for shields or turbolasers, or humongous power generators. You only need one or two crewmen, they can be droids. This ship then, using hyperspace ramming, certainly destroys the enemy warship. Which sounds more effective for waging war to you?
"no need for shields" Oh yeah, because the Imperial ship that the hyperspace missile is clearly targeting will definitely just sit there and do nothing. And of course, one Interdictor would nullify the entire arsenal, which would make them 100% useless. So, good idea.
'certainly destroys the enemy warship' watch the scene again. Someone tells Hux immediately before the ship jumps that she is activating her hyperdrive. Hux dismisses it without even looking over and continues to get his rocks off on the last of the resistance being blown to pieces. Not only that but the big ship she shot at didn't even suffer that much damage. it could almost certainly be repaired from that state. The cloud of debris that she created was the only reason it was so effective. Not only that but the ship she used was massive compared to your hypothetical ship that is probably going to get shot to pieces as soon as someone realizes that it doesn't have shields. Not to mention that it probably needs those humongous generators to actually power the hyper drive. So No. I don't think its cut and dry.
Stephen Jenkins Well, we see in the Last Jedi that the Star Destroyers can travel through a solar system in less than a day. That would put their speed somewhere in the millions of kilometers per hour range. And sadly, going to hyperspace is not as simple as 'just pushing the lever', as Han tells Luke, it requires performing advanced calculations and powering up the hyperdrive first. You could pre-prepare these calculations, like Chewie did when he dropped off Rey in TLJ, but it would be impossible to do that for a moving target.
" but have you seen how slow capital ships like ISDs are?" Try watching Empire Strikes Back, to see what happens when an unshielded asteroid enters the firing range of an Imperial Star Destroyer. A single shot from a Star Destroyer's turbo-lasers instantly disintegrated an asteroid on contact. It's a trick that would work, at best, exactly once, and only if the captain of the ship was an idiot, who didn't consider the fact the Rebels were trying to maneuver an asteroid towards their ship somewhat suspicious. After that one time it (maybe) worked, any other time they tried it, the asteroids would just be blown to bits before they could set it up again. This strategy literally ONLY worked in TLJ because Hux had all but written off the Raddus and didn't redirect his fire at the Raddus when he had the chance. Had Hux wanted to destroy the Raddus before it jumped to Hyperspace, he could have, he was just too focused on destroying the rest of the Resistance, and figured that a skeleton crew was of significantly lower priority.
When traveling at the speed of light, mass doesnt matter. A needle traveling at the speed of light can in theory destroy a planet the size of earth. As you approach the speed of light, mass matters less due to how massive the velocity is.
Atarwara dosent have light speed, its impossible in the lore. Hyperspace hopping out of real space into hyperspace wich allows you to travel greater distances in less distance. Like running through the neither in minecraft
@@ShaddySoldier but to get into hyperspace, you must first approach the speed of light. This is why you see the stars stretch right before the ship enters hyperspace. Theres a brief moment where your ship is going almost as fast as the speed of light.
Yeah, I don’t see how this doesn’t break lore. You wouldn’t have to make an entire ship. A super heavy missile just with guidance and a hyperdrive wouldn’t be all that cost prohibitive as the rebel alliance fighters all have hyperdrives.
Yeah exactly, every X-Wing already has an hyperdrive, imagine if instead of losing 3-4 Wings to kill a Destroyer you could just send a cheaper, stripped out version of one and instakill it
But massively producing inhert projectiles with hyperdrives would be a real dead cost, hyperdrive fighters at least are "manned", multirole... so I understand the choice
@@piazzollalucagordon4149 The cost would be tiny in comparison to what the currently do, that’s only counting materials, not to mention the lives of their pilots
@@tulkdog I'm talking just about materials actually, what I meant is that a warhead is much more "situational" and thus is a cost to be reckoned with, against spending those resources in multirole crafts that sooner or later will always be used more often. I didn't take account for human lives just because they WANT to risk to die, I am no immoral :D But I realize that's a big cost too when downsized to just "resources"
@@tulkdog I can agree at only one condition: no superheavy missile, with lightspeed involved you can just throw the HS core itself :D Then the costs may also be risible
The problem is the hyperspace ram outright conflicts with what we've seen hyperspace do onscreen in the last several movies. In TFA, Han hyperspaces through a planetary shield to avoid it. If we apply the Holdo Maneuver logic to it, the Falcon would have splat on the shield and tear gouges through Starkiller Base with the particle spray. In Rogue One, we see the Rebel Fleet hyperspacing away from Scarif, and through the Devastator as it drops out of hyperspace in front of them; the only ship to ram into it is a GR-75 transport still in realspace. Going even further back, in A New Hope, the Falcon drops out of hyperspace into the debris field that used to be Alderaan. The ship is not affected by the debris until it drops into realspace.
The Devastator and The Debris don't have any presence in HyperSpace as they aren't massive enough. Certain Objects with certain scale or gravity have shadows in the realm of hyperspace and that's what you can hit if you turn off all your ship safeties. That's also how Interdiction Cruisers work, they create a massive gravity well to drag Rebel Ships into real space because its logical to assume they would leave their Safeties on. As for the The Shield in TFA, Han mentions that the shield is on a fractional refresh rate that would catch anything moving slower than Lightspeed. In that Scene Finn even acts like they are gonna just splat into the shield but instead the falcon got passed the shield because they were moving faster than the could refresh. And besides there were a million other factors effecting Holdo's jump that probably aren't repeatable, but the Force Was With Them and it happened to hit that Destructive GoldieLocks zone.
@@CynUnion-ji9uj Its also worth mentioning that hitting something after coming out of hyperspace is a very different scenario then hitting something at the apex of your pre-hyperspace acceleration.
The best explanation is that the ship is since this ship is capable of hyperspace, it is present in both real space and hyperspace. Holdo noticed this and realized she could pull it off. It works because it is the first time we see a ship with hyperspace tracking capability and also the first time someone used light speed as a military tactic. They compliment each other.
But in that movie Han literally says that hyperspace isn’t easy as they could easily land in a supernova or star. If hyperspace isn’t affected by things in real space then why would that even be a risk?
"It doesn't even make sense because there are safeties in place to prevent that!" Step 1: Turn safeties off. Step 2: Hyperspace ram. Additionally, those safeties were invented as a gameplay mechanic for the X-wing and TIE Fighter games to prevent players from dying after completing a mission because they booped a something (as far as I know). And no matter the origin,those safeties aren't mentioned in any of the movies - In A New Hope, Han states explicitly that jumping without precise calculations could result in collision - or death in any case - and in The Force Awakens, said non-existent safeties would have prevented the Falcon from traveling along a path with Starkiller Base in its way. He took the Falcon out of hyperspace manually; the Falcon didn't exit when the computer detected something in the way.
@@1234kalmar I disagree that there are many flaws with this concept. Travelling at light speed means you'd have infinite mass, so you'd either tear through another ship like it was tin foil or at the very least the atoms would fuse toghether to make new ones, and the heat generated would quickly end what remained of both starships. Canonically, there is literally no issue with the idea of using a hyperdrive as a weapon. I think the real issues are threefold. 1. Why? No really. Why sacrifice the crew of the ship, along with the entire ship itself, on a single one-hit wonder? Logically this is a last resort, not your first port of call for destroying the enemy. 2. Accuracy. As noted by our favourite smuggler, without precise calcuations Hyperspace jumps can go wildly off-course. Trying to hit anything less than a big target with something of equally reasonable size would be like trying to thread a needle blindfolded. 3. Conventional tactics work just fine in most cases. The Empire developed superweapons to destroy entire planets in seconds, negating the need to use anything as unreliable as a hyperdrive weapon, and the Rebels have enough tools at their disposal not to rely on it. There is literally no in-canon reason why it wouldn't work, despite countless attempts to discredit it. People were just upset about Episode 8, rightly so, and felt the need to nitpick even further. I've said it before, I'll say it again. No one hates Star Wars like a Star Wars fan.
@@Crystan I'm going to say this to why sacrifice a whole crew point. USE DROIDS. Its proven that you can have a r2 unit fly ships so why not have one fly a ship with hyper space capacity into the object. Then there's no chance for human error or needing to find suicidal people. To the size difference why not go for the death star its said to be the size of a small moon. Disney had to make so many retcons as to why this is the first time because it opened up so many plot holes. They should've just had the ship do a massive explosion.
@@jacksonashby7819 Exactly, and it doesn't even have to be droids. Just add some kind of basic navigation device on them. It's basically a guided missile with a hyperdrive attached to it. I don't have any problem with this besides: "Why didn't anybody else think of this idea until now?" I find it highly unlikely Holdo would've been the first to weaponize this technology. Why suddenly now and not in the past?
@@Crystan last resort you say? IF those rebels are all willing to die for their cause then why not kamikaze into a ISD with a modified or beefed up cruiser (corellian corvette)(the hammerhead scene would be rare the ISDs were WAY to close and . You practically destroy an expensiv ship with one thats a fraction of the cost, or you could use droids that can and will do the job. IF i was a generall in SW i would never get anything bigger then a corellian corvette (or equally big ships) there is no use for them. Get a huge fleet of fighters good ones like the V-wing and X-wing, some good bombers like the B wing and some cruisers that are just for antifighter duty or ship-ramming. This would be the ''real'' way to fight space battles in SW but since that wouldnt be great for movies they dont do them. The tactics would be established very fast after they realize they can do this. EXCEPT if the enemy has interdictor ships which can pull you out or even just stop you from using the hyperdrive, but even then huge ships are big targets for small bombers and would actually be specialized for anti fighter battles (no huge octupel barbettes but a big collection of small and fast firing AA guns) AND if they would all have interdictors even then they would not have thousands of ISD because it would count as a to specialised ship that can get destroyed in a massed fighter attack, they would probably have a venator style carrier that can destroy cruisers but still have decent amount of fighters (and dont forget interdictors are ''new'' and they would be the nr1 priority for the bombers). btw about reliability, if that tactic was used more often hyperdrive ramming would be ''perfected'' with time and if that doesnt work throw another ship at it, these capital ships cost at least twice as much as a cruiser.
And there you strike on what the heart of the problems with the Last Jedi. It's a complete mess both in tonally and emotionally. It was sort of entertaining seeing the movie completely sabotaging itself from the very first dialog scene (the telephone joke with Hux) all the way to the end. But it completely deflated any enthusiasm I would have had for the next movie.
The Firery Stool that's not even the issue... they just threw away developed people with no response who where legends even in their universe yet want you to feel for a flat character
The Firery Stool Yes. He would have had a great exit and made far more sense than someone who comes out of nowhere, given no character development, and causes most of the problems of the movie by not sharing information or even hope with her crew.
You say it wouldn’t be effective against the Death Star, but we’ve now established that the force field could be surpassed using hyper drives, and what do you think is going to happen on collision? A cloud of hyper speed shrapnel would’ve torn the inside to pieces, at the very least, disabling massive portions of the station, or at best, causing a cascading explosion which destroys the whole thing, just grab some old and outdated ships to use as suicide craft, except the hyper speed can be automated, or at worst, you’d need an astromech to do it, it’s a dumb maneuver from an awful movie
i wouldnt say dumb, it just came out of nowhere and broke all tactics that were already used or that are proven, its like looking at every bigger ship and calling it a waste. if it had a realy big risk like creating blackholes THAT would be a good point on why they never used those tactics en mass before.
@@fesaldeari2717 if you look at the maneuver on its own without any context, it’s fine, but in the context of the biggest movie franchise ever, it doesn’t fit and it’s existence is dumb
@@fesaldeari2717 the thing is, what's happening is basically a nuclear reaction (probably fusion) because the atoms of the Supremacy can't move out of the way fast enough, so their nuclei get fused together, or break apart. And since the Raddus was moving at light speed, nearly the entire thing would have fused, or at least fissured, creating effectively a mile long nuclear bomb. Meanwhile say an X-wing went that quickly, it would be roughly the same as the Tsar Bomb, which would not have effected the Death Star in any meaningful way. I mean, it would have made a new crater, but it wouldn't even come close to destroying the reactor.
@@gonkdroid4prez539 well yes then again a corvette or a cruiser would suffice, or instead of making a deathstar a big asteroid would be enough just stick a hyperdrive on it and bam. All bigger ships would be absolutely unnecessary except for transporting big armies etc.
Canadian gopnik, we don’t know how useful it would be on a small scale ship, because the ship that did it is HUGE, and sure it did a TON of crowd control, but the main target is STILL not destroyed, just harshly damaged. So a hyper speed x-wing to the death star probably wouldn’t do a ton. Also sure bad movie, but I think it’s a REALLY cool scene, even if it is dumb
"Are there other scenarios I didn't consider" All of the prequels ALL OF THEM. If you're going to be using the prequels to establish a cost for hyperspace drives(their cost is never stated in the OT) then you have to acknowledge they exist. The CIS is using an almost all-droid army and their space navy is canonically larger than the Republic's. Both sides are extremely well funded too. They've definitely got both ships and hyperdrives to spare yet they never use hyperspace ramming.
Frikgeek, he also said that both sides had better firepower that was more efficient anyways, why would you lose one of your ships and kill one of theirs, maybe a few more, if you can can just shoot it instead
Koria Borein yes but it would leave behind a lot of debris flying at hyper speed that are extremely dangerous. They don’t do it for the same reasons we don’t use nukes because of the environmental impact or in Star Wars’s case galactic space damage
The realy problem with this whole thing is the folowing: Watching the entirity of star wars, all the battles I mean, I personnaly never thought of doing that, not even once. And it is safe to assume that not many star wars character had the idea either, if none. Lets be honest, being a trained and experienced military staff, it takes either isanaty or genius, strapped with a desparate situation, to come up with something that crazy. This isn't an obvious tactics that anyone could think of. Taking it for granted because you saw it ONCE in a movie is a huge mistake. And beside, it's truly unfaire to shower the creators of the movie with irrelevant critics for bring a novel idea to the star wars universe. TLJ is the worse movie of the franchise in my opinion, but I still like it despite its flaws.
This makes no sense. The Raddus was ~2km long and the "hyperspace shrapnel" flew out, more or less, in a cone at least 100x the length of the raddus. A correllian corvette is like 90m long, so to buy enough time, say to escape yavin in episode 4, all you'd need to do is ram a correllian corvette (very cheap ship the rebels had loads of), to knock a 10km deep radioactive crater of destruction into the death star and completely disable the main weapon. It is such a ridiculous force multiplier that it completely invalidates any strategy that relies on the creation of large ships (literally the Tarkin strategy). It means you can take out a star destroyer with a rebel transport, a carrack cruiser with a fighter. It makes asymmetric warfare a guaranteed win. Ironically, it actually makes more sense than star wars, and that's the problem. I could suspend disbelief before, now I can't because they're like "Oh hey, you know that really obvious thing nobody has done for "insert handwavy reason here"? No that actually works, it's just that everyone in the galaxy with the exception of some purple-haired cunt has been high on glue for the last 20,000 years.
Exactly. Why didn't anybody think until this point to make a missile with a hyperdrive? There's no need for crew sacrifices if a computer program can do it.
Also the idea that the rebellion can't afford to waste hyperdrives is laughable. Litteraly every single one of their x-wing has one equipped, and they had no issue sending them in the fray. If a fighter in hyperdrive could have that amount of destructive power, then the logical step would be : put some droids in there, and go kamikaze.
Plus if the death star even came near a hyperspace route it'd be turned into Alderaan by a thousand passing freighters. This could fly for a smaller ship but the DS (and more so starkiller) is big enough to crash into and mobile enough to not be charted as a celestial.
One note here - the destruction scales with the mass of the ship, not the length. So while a corvette is 20x smaller, the destruction wouldn't be 20x smaller. It would be 20x20x20=8000x smaller. But even 8000x smaller destruction is still massive.
"A cash strapped rebellion has absolutely no business destroying such a valuable resource for just one kill." We're not talking about just one kill here. We're talking about the freaking Death Star. If the Death Star destroyed Yavin, then there would be no more Rebellion. Therefore, normal cost-benefit analyses should go out of the window.
There is a big problem with this particular argument. Several actually. The rebellion didnt have much of a fleet left after scarif. Whatever hyperspace capable non-fighters they had would have been in use evacuating key personnel and equipment from Yavin. Even if they did their full scarif fleet intact the biggest ship in it is a lot smaller then the raddus and the death star is a lot bigger then the supremacy.
MWBalls yeah but a single GR-75 into the disc on the death star will surely knock it out long enough for the rebels to escape and as for space im sure they could cram those people into another transport long enough for them to get away from the empire
Yes but it’s not like the empire is limited to just the Death Star and of the rebellion was just willing to sacrifice its pilots for kills ultimately it would fail. All pilots expect to give their lives for the cause but in the end they would spend more money trying to get pilots than giving their pilots better conditions for fighting
It’s been proven by scientific calculation, that a paperclip, if accelerated to lightspeed or near light speed, could have an equivalent impact force to several atomic bombs. So, a ship of such size would not be needed to do this tactic. An X-wing could pull something like this off. Also, bringing up price is irrelevant. Losing an entire squadron of hyperdrive equipped X-wings in a battle is more than okay, by this logic, but using a single X-wing equivalent weapon/missile sort of thing to destroy a enemy star-destroyer class ship is out of the question? Nonsensical. And, upon reaching full speed after slamming through a target, it’s possible that the debris could simply enter hyperspace and be spat out far from anything. Anyways, that’s my rant over. G’day!
That's not how hyperspace works watch Event Horizon with Sam Neill and Laurence Fishburne in the movie he talks about how fast light speed goes you're basically not going anywhere from one or two you going from 0 you're practically going through another dimension without even hitting anything around or in front of you you're going bending Through Time
@@bonnierabbit1413 I don't think I understand your point. If you are going through the other dimension, then how did the rebels hit The Supremacy if the 2 ships were in different dimensions?
Losing hundreds of experienced pilots who have pensions that requiring pay==efficient. 1 small object strapped with mass, cheaply produced FTL engine, and basic targeting computers==inefficient. Seriously, there are ways to maximize the destructive capabilities of hyperspace if this is going to be treated canon. The amount of energy you can direct at the enemy, for the cost can be optimized to maximize damage. You don't even need a good hyperspace drive. The cheapest, shittiest thing that can remain in an inert form for a long time without breaking down will work. Take the specs of that, add the targeting computers, and engines needed to do basic, sub-light maneuvering/vectoring. Then maximize mass. The cheapest metals/minerals can work. And given the amount of useless minerals, you can reduce costs greatly.
Look at the size of the Raddus, look at the size of an X-wing. The Raddus is a lot bigger an had experimental shields which is why so much debris was propelled into the star destroyers. The size difference between the Raddus and the Supremacy is very different compared the an X-Wing and the Death Star. and X-Wing wouldn't do anything against the death star. besides if you were a fighter pilot in real life would you rather be in a dog fight where you could die or commit suicide and take out a base?
@@Revilod You aren't thinking this all the way through. While it may seem like something that few want to attempt, and indeed, it is a suicide mission--no doubt about it--it is in cynical terms, the best option. But, it's not necessary to send organic pilots up--we already know that smart machines exist, so instead of using a pilot, just utilize an integrated droid AI. The distances it can operate and initial a burn sequence would be measured in Astronomical Units, well out of the range of most ship board weapons. And the relative size of the craft make targeting the missile-ships difficult, especially when you take in a few seconds of lightspeed delay. Pilots aren't necessary. Instead of spending billions, if not trillions, on training fighters in dogfighting, spend it on the hardware many times more effective than a fighter in capital ship combat. I suspect there will still be niche for dogfighters in Star Wars, but that is a separate topic entirely, depending on the rules being considered. And sure, if we want to talk in terms of effective damage outright destroying the Death Star, I will cede it will not destroy it. But, aim it at particular sections, and you'll cause grave damage. Firing some hyperspeed missiles of freighter size, and watch the destruction. Hell, you don't even need to have the entire station implode, simply disable the fire control, fighter bays, and cause enough catastrophic damage to cripple the Station. And, you basically can't miss. Also, the point about experimental shields doesn't make much sense. If you are saying they intentionally installed weak or unrefined shield technology, state so clearly. Even if they are significantly better, they shouldn't be able to hold up against lightspeed, when considering the mass of the objects being thrown at them. They will crumble, and crack, if they don't fold completely.
@@jackr2287 Science in Star Wars doesn't work the same way in real life. A small ship moving at light speed is not meant to do very much against a moon sized space station. By getting too technical with this you ruin the lore for your self.
Why Trade Federation just no hyperspeed against the Jedi Temple in Coruscant, and kill some clone generals, Yoda and Mace Windu. 1 cargo garbage ship and some droids = thousands of Jedi.
You'd think something named a Mega Star Destroyer in a childish fit of "my dad can beat up your dad" would pack a lot of Gravity Well Generators as you said. Oh to hell with it. Why didn't it have a Superlaser? The First Order has portable Death Star lasers, so why don't their warships have one? Wasn't this ship supposed to be everything the Eclipse Super Star Destroyer from legends was, only better?
I still think that strapping a class 20 hyperdrive to a big rock an trowing it at star destroyers is cheaper than actually building star destroyers, i mean for the price of 1 star destroyer you can get like 1000 hyperdrived rocks and unlike with the star destroyer you have the potential to destroy hundreds of capital ships and actually hurt the empire a hell of a lot harder than all rebellion ships from all time combined
Diego Gonzalez The idea that you can simply strap a hyperdrive to an asteroid and expect it to work as intended is probably more stupid than the ramming scene seems to be perceived. It may be true that a lot of movie viewers nowadays seem to go out of their way to nit-pick flaws, but the fact that this particular "flaw" has also been turned into a trending topic is absurd. If you're going to criticize this scene, there are a number of other things in star wars you should criticize, like the unrealistic movement of ships in space, for example. I don't see why this is an issue, given the semi-fantasy setting star wars takes place in.
Analytic31 yes many other thing make no sense on star wars but particulary this one completely breaks the whole star wars universe thats why is so popular since anyone at any moment could just ram their cheap shitty ship on a star destroyer or the two death stars or hyper kick palpatines ass whenever the ocassion appeared also i dont know why is stupid to strap a hyperdrive to a asteroid since they are expendable and, if you can make only one of those rocks to hit its target at light speed is game over
Analytic31 why is it so stupid? We see in the prequels that a jedi starfighter can be hooked up to a hyperspace ring. Attach one of those or a bigger one to an asteroid, have an R2 unit pilot it, and there you go.
Analytic31 The difference is we can look at how the ships movement operates and see ALL ships in the universe are operating this way. We can look at how lightsabers and blasters operate and notice they all have similar, consistent properties. We can see force users and how they train and use their powers. If we can suspend our disbelief, with a bit of set up, demonstration or expansion, enough to accept these things are a feature of the setting then we can watch comfortably. If suddenly there was a ship flying with hard real-world physics we'd be unimmersed, wondering what was happening, even though it would be more realistic. Until a character mentioned how it was using ancient engines without maneuvering controls. If a lightsaber suddenly couldn't deflect a blaster bolt we'd wonder what was going on there too and why they weren't used all the time. Unless the gun had been built up as, say, a rare Jedi hunting gun with expensive unblockable bullets. The reason so many people hated the hyperspace ram is that it put them in that situation. It's not about realistic or not, it's that it is inconsistent with the setting as it is presented. We can accept Jedi's unrealistic reflexes, but would lose that suspension of disbelief if they suddenly gained 100 metre long stretchy limbs. Here we have a ship doing a very effective attack that we've never seen before and not given an explanation as to why this was an exception. ("Sir! Our shields are depleted from directing power to the engines!" "No matter. Their weapons are too weak to cause much damage" "They aren't charging weapons!" There. I stopped half the complaints about it. Still an issue in that unshielded ships haven't been vulnerable before, but it's a start.) People are drawn out of the immersion wondering what just happened and why it doesn't match what they know about the setting. That's why it's such a bad scene. Even if you can justify it later, (and though I think it can be defended, I disagree that it can be completely justified) the damage is done.
Artur Ferrão Han shouldn't even be able to fire more than one shot with the thing either. You need the strength of a wookiee or trandoshan to reload the damn thing.
Fun fact: the Space Gun is a canon Empire superweapon that was basically the hyperspace equivalent of the Ace combat Chandelier railgun, it fired giant hyperspace missiles that would crack open or destroy planets. This has been done before, and it was hated then as well.
It is not the same, because hyperspace missile was not using the speed from hyperspace jump as its means of destruction, it was some type of explosives that I don't remember, but it is not the same
The problem with your argument is the Rebellion has the blueprints for the Death Star. They logically should know exactly where to ram it to cause maximum damage... its main reactor located perfectly in the center of the spherical station that's so unstable it only takes 2 torpedoes to destroy it completely. A ship the size of the Raddus completely cut through a 13 km ship with ease. For the Death Star they only need to get debris to reach the reactor, which is only about 40km from its surface. So all the Rebellion would need to do is capture 2 or 3 massive freighters/cruise starships, which a dozen armed men on a rubber dinghy can do in the real world, so let's say two or three squads of troops on a transport. Then dump the crew/passengers somewhere and kamikaze the captured ships into the Death Star with a crew of a few droids. If the first ship doesnt penetrate far enough, then launch the second one into it, by the time the third hits it should easily reach the reactor and destroy the whole space station. Heck, they could even dig up a few Lucrehulk-class Battleships that are far more massive than the Raddus. Basically it would cost the Rebellion next to nothing resource wise as it wouldn't be their ships, but ones they confiscated and retrofitted with a small suicide droid crew.
@@Bothandle70 the shot Luke took was impossible. They gambled hard they could do it because it was their only hope. Which is the point, because if hyperspace ramming was actually a thing they could have just kamikazed a lot of ships into it until they hit the reactor. It's a question about probabilities. If Hyperspace ramming was possible it would be by far the surest method.
@@jonathanryan9946 they also thought computer could be used to make precision hit. So they thought their mission would succeed. Only when it didn't manage to do it they realize it was a gamble. There was also another factor, the laser bullet(don't know the exact name. Torpedoes?) had to be pulled by the reactor(it went straight after it was fired then went downwards) so pulling that off from hyperspace jump would be impossible.
I beg to differ. Sending a small ship through the core of the death star is a far cheaper and safer alternative to fighting it head on and hoping that someone can hit the ventilation opening.
J17, it's a matter of options. On one hand, you could try the Hyperspace Ram (if it worked) and maybe disable a Death Star so that it doesn't blow up your planet or maybe not. On the other hand, you may throw X-Wings at it in the crazy hope that one of them will get through all defenses and land a mathematically impossible shot. One option might work or not and will only cost you one ship (or asteroid with a hyperdrive strapped to it) if it fails. The other is a ludicrous act of desperation which will cost you your entire fleet, all your pilots, and your planet if it fails. If we are talking about the Death Star II with it's gaping holes, there choice becomes even more extreme.
The video has multiple problems even outside of the argument about the rebellion being low on cash 1. Why don’t Imperials use it? Sure, it’s situational because rebels don’t have a lot of capital ships, but it’s still a guaranteed one shot kill. 2. Republic and CIS exist, and they never were low on cash, seriously concerned with loses or had a shortage of enemy capital ships to battle. And don’t tell me that nobody thought of this during that era, because that is a huge insult to every admiral and military scientist who ever lived between the invention of hyperspace travel and Holdo Manoeuvre. Having FTL travel and not thinking of weaponising it is something no general in the history of ever would do.
Good points, though you put "C.S.A." and not "C.I.S." Now I can only think of is a bunch of Confederates having access to Hyperdrives and using the Holdo Manoeuvre on Union Ships.
i agree, in tcw anakin rammed his broken ship into the sep ship, but he didnt do it in hyperspace, because its surpose to go to another deminsion. if you could hyperspace ram, why would anakin not hyperspace ram his ship into the sep ship
@@themelon_1785 Because Ryloth was behind it. "An object in motion remains in motion at constant speed and in a straight line unless acted on by an unbalanced force." Anakin's goal was to break the blockade to deliver relief supplies to Twi'Leks on the surface, not to destroy a sepi ship and cause an apocalypse. In Star Wars, a ship accelerates to near C (the speed of light) before entering hyperspace. That's when the ramming happens, not after entering. Even if the Defender was only moving at .01 C that is a cataclysmic impact force. Some napkin math: assuming a Venator at 1155 meters has comparable density per meter as a Nimitz class aircraft carrier at 333, and adjusting for size, it's total mass is 693692000 kg. Plug that into F=M*A, with "A" being the velocity of 299.72 (.01 the speed of light) squared. Plug that in and you get 6.2345737 e+15 (times 10 to the 15th power) Newtons, which is 635,749 megatons, six times the impact that killed the dinosaurs. The Tsar Bomb, the largest bomb ever detonated, was 50 megatons. That impact would be the equivalent of 12,714 super nukes. That makes for one super dead planet. And all of this is super low balling it. Assuming the materials aren't way more dense than earth steel, that you enter hyperspace at 1/100th the speed of light, not counting the bits of the Leucherhulk that would be shot into the planet at nearly the same speed, ignoring radiation, ignoring what the detonating engine would do. Just the Venator, it's mass, and speed, kills the planet six times over. That's why Anakin didn't do that. That's why you don't just willy-nilly near-lightspeed ram things in space. That's why this isn't the gaping plot hole that shatters canon people constantly claim it is.
Why do people not understand that Hyperspace is an actual different dimension. Its not "just going really fast" its literally going into a different realm of existence.
While it is true that hyperspace is just a sub space dimension, ships in hyperspace carry some sort of “mass shadow” that CAN interact with our plane of existence.
@@grayefarer8151 it's not a safety feature, you literally CANT hyperspace through gravity Wells, which is why interdicter cruisers with very, very powerful artificial gravity well generators were created to trap ships and prevent them from simply jumping into hyperspace
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 And yet Disney thought it was a bright idea to have the rules of hyperspace broken in damn near every movie they've put out since. R1: The U-wing enters Hyperspace in Atmosphere at Jedha. TFA: Jumping in *past* the planetary defense field of Starkiller base. (Which that also means TLJ broke the rules of the last movie as it TFA was still treating hyperspace as a dimension shift) TLJ: ...Christ
I posted this as a response to a comment, but I feel I spent enough time on this to move it into the real comments: Relativistic energy is a little funny. the equation is (y-1)mc^2, where y is our Lorentz Factor, calculated by the equation y=1/(sqrt(1-(v/c)^2)). Lets take an object moving at .9C for our example. For simplicity, we'll assume the object is 1 kilogram in mass, and that an object moving at that speed will not burn up in the atmosphere. We'll also round C up to 3x10^8 m/s. For our Lorentz factor we get a number of approximately 2.29416, which gives us a kinetic energy equation of (1.29416)(1 Kg)(9x10^16 m/s) = 1.165x10^17 Joules, which comes out to equate to roughly 27 Megatons of TNT. Our one kilogram mass, dropped on central park would cause third degree burns 44 kilometers away. But it gets scarier. if we increase that speed to .99C, an increase of .09, our energy sextuples to around 6.4x10^17 joules, about 152 megatons of TNT. The closer you get to C, the exponential amounts more energy you need. Keep in mind, all of this is for a 1 KG object. which means that, because to scale up we simply need to multiply by the mass, an object travelling at .99 light speed has the energy of *150 MEGATONS OF TNT PER KILOGRAM OF MASS* The Star Wars wiki doesn't give us the weight of the Raddus, however it gives us a length of about 3400 meters by 700 meters by 400 meters, which means, using dimensional analysis, we have a metal object of about 9.5 billion cubic meters. Assuming its made of conventional metals, lets say steel with a mass of about 8000kg/m^3, and lets just assume the weight of the ship is all that we care about, no ammo or supplies or smaller ships docked, we can estimate the mass of the Raddus to be about 7.616 Trillion Kilograms in weight Multiply this by our equation of 150 Megatons per KG, and we can see that the Raddus colliding with a planet at just .99C, not even hyperspace velocities, would impact with a force of *1.1424 QUADRILLION MEGATONS OF TNT, OR 1.1424 SEPTILLION TONS OF TNT, or 4.8x10^30 JOULES* *THAT IS THE ENTIRE ENERGY OUTPUT OF THE SUN FOR FOUR HOURS* *NEEDLESS TO SAY THAT PLANET IS FUCKING TOAST* This is a UNIVERSE breaking plot hole
Sorry to say you that, but... Star Wars is not SciFi. I mean, on everything, it fucks science. It is what is called in science-fiction "soft science". In this case, very, very, very soft. Planets with always same gravity and same air, sounds, explosions, in space (the famous example),soooo much things... At this level, we can say this is fantasy, no matter it is Space Opera with robots, technologic-looking ships, planets.... So, this is fun to make science exercises in cult fiction, and I hope you enjoyed doing it and people will enjoy reading it. 'Cause beyond entertaining, this explaining was as useless as explaining how scientifically and technologically functions the Ring, using AI science, light (for the invisible power)science.... What I mean is SW universe is not reprochable to fuck REAL science. It is reprochable to fuck his OWN science, his own logic and rules. Like if a 1st year Hogwarts students apparates everytime he wants and can handle eyes covered a battle vs Grindelwald, Merlin, Dumbledore and Voldemort (wow freakin' epic battle it wold be by the way). SW didn't respected his OWN fantasy science, impossible-in-our-world logic with this hyperspace deal. Anyway, I see that you enjoyed calculate it, and that it makes life freaking easier when you're strong in maths (not like me). With your level you should make a science on fiction channel by the way.
I'm not that sure. What is the most official and sure web dictionnary? We should check SciFi definition to debate on this basic information; If you can please give me some arguments?
My definition of SciFi is that it attempts to give scientifically coherent theories of things that could potentially exist, througt a fictionnal world. I think SW never (maybe there are exceptions)made this. How hyperdrive works is never scientifically explained, the Force is a magical mystical energy, every species can be found on a fantasy world, and... Look, i will make a SciFi-Looking SW VS a Fantasy-Looking SW: -planets VS countries and continents -species VS species -Metal ship with a technologic-looking style with buttons, cables everywhere, and a system to go in hyperdrive when you press buttons VS wooden boat that goes on a magical portal when you say the magic spell to go faster -Space VS ocean You see, when in this VS list you remark that in every SciFi example there is no more scientific explaining than in his Fantasy mirror-example, you understand that the SW world's SciFi is just a decoration, a way to tell a story that never gives scientific explaining. Beyond the cables, buttons, machines, technology-looking world, there is no explaining of how this technology works. It's technology of an imaginary world, a world where there are sounds, fire, explosions in space. PS i don't mean that SW is bad because of it, I LOVE SW.
I didn't know there was explainings in Expanded Universe. It's not that I never paid attention, it is that I have too much fiction to look and read, i'm lost in all of it, so it's very complicated to me to jump into the gigantic expanded universe. I'd be glad if you could advise me where to begin in Legends SW.
They were all targetting that super star destroyer. Bridge shield taken down. You can see when it crashes that 1 of the main thrusters is damaged and leaking a trail of flame. And it's cannon that Piette made a tactical error bringing the Executor so close to the death star that it got caught in its gravity. That a-wing actually got real lucky taking out the bridge.
People tend to stop suspending their disbelief when the story isn’t very good. I think that might be why A wing guy gets a pass as roj was engaging and exciting. Tlj sadly was not
@@silverdandy4658 they literally show the Star Destroyer's shield generator getting blown up in the scene right before it. That's why they accept the A-wing.
Although admirable trying to defend it, your points themselves have a few “plot holes”. If you watch any Star Wars space battle, you’ll see that every time rebels try to attack the empire, even if they win, it costs them tons of fighters and bombers and even larger ships, such as frigates and corvettes. So while “kamikaze” so to say tactics are somewhat wasteful, in the sense that you can only use the craft once... it doesn’t matter because you are still saving a net positive amount of resources. Before to take down a star destroyer, it would mean loosing multiple X wings, A wings and Y wings. But with hyper space ramming you’d only need to sacrifice 1 small craft and aim it at the bridge or the engines (or even on its under side where the massive reactor chore is), either way, disabling an entire star destroyer and potentially destroying it. So in a hypothetical battle, the rebels would lose maybe a dozen craft as opposed to dozens, but they’d also be eliminating dozens of star destroyers. The only plausible sort of counter measure I’ll admit would be a gravity well ship, which would prevent such attacks, but most star destroyers weren’t accompanied by those ships (and concentrating fire on said ship in the beginning of the battle to eliminate it, would be a viable tactic). And the money strapped resistance still manages to equip all its craft (including fighters and bombers) with hyper drives, so as frugal as they might be, they aren’t exactly poor. The main issue kinda arises in the way hyperdrives work. In Star Wars hyperdrives don’t just make you go fast through space. The idea is that you go SO fast that you actually start traveling in a sort of space fold or different dimension (I’ll admit the science isn’t precise to me). But the way it’s shown in TLJ is that you just go through regular space really fast. The point of hyperlanes isn’t so you don’t hit objects, the point is to make a corridor clear of Massive objects that would pull you out of hyperspace with their gravity (ergo the use of gravity well ship weapons). And lastly this is hardly the main flaw with TLJ. The mere fact that Holdo said she “needed to pilot the ship and had to stay” was ridiculous because even autopilot aside, at no point did she in the following moments actually pilot the ship. She was just walking around the bridge dramatically until of course she decided to do the maneuver in question (the real reason she needed to stay behind, unbeknownst to her, but known to the writers).
6 років тому
We only see the major battles with the heaviest loses for the Rebellion in the movies. I doubt something like that was going on every Sunday.
EVER.. ALLWAYS hiperspace was a diferent dimension where the hiperdrive engines take ships to .. but they didnt got lightspeed in real space.. or even near.. the ship "jumping away" was allways a representation of the process.. Aparently Ryan Jonhson despite is alleged vast star wars knowledge didnt learnt ..or cared about this
Except you don't need a fully functional warship for a hyperspace ram. All you need is an empty frame/hull and a hyperdrive, which really isn't as expensive as you might think if some junker like Watto had one on a backwatter world like Tatooine.. They are commercially available in several different classes.
You wouldn't even need that. If this worked then you would build a hyperspace torpedo consisting of some mass (tungsten or depleted uranium or Imperial battle steel), a hyperdrive motor, and a guidance unit. Throw on some sub-light engines and a shield generator and you would have something far cheaper and more compact than a starship. These would be cheaper and more effective than fighters.
The books did have a Hyperspace cannon capable of firing missiles across the galaxy but that was a specialized piece of hardware which explains why it wasn't commonplace. TLJ really does make every "super weapon" that appears in future movies beg the question of why they won't be destroyed in the same way Holdo used.
you need to power a hyperdrive that can jump that ship you cant just put a hyperdrive from a small fighter onto a massive ship it will never be able to create a big enough bubble.
The only question I had in this scene was: Where did they take the power for the Hyperdrive?! I haven't seen the movie, since it came out, but as far as I remember, at the beginning of the movie, they said, they have enough fuel left for one jump or 11 hours in sublight. (Which is illogical, because after the first acceleration they should not have been needing any more fuel to keep their speed for the rest of their lives) They chose Sublight and after that time was nearly over, they transferred their last fuel on their shuttles to escape. So after 90% of the needed fuel consumed and the rest taken out of the tanks, HOW THE H*** DID SHE HYPERDRIVE!?!
Well, the ship didnt reach the hyper space at that point, so we dont know how much energy was consumed doing that maneuver. And since the required relativistic kinetic energy rises rapidly near the speed of light, it it possible, even likely that just a fraction of the required hyperdrive energy was used for this maneuver.
@@xgunnerplaystwo2412 But like I said, they where not in hyperspace. They were flying with sublight, like our shuttles would be flying through space. So the normal physics should apply here and after the first acceleration, the momentum should have carried them further, without wasting any more fuel.
@@eleweyter4462 You will not get any answer for this question. Ruin Johnson just like Jar Jar Abrams doesn't understand the science in scence fiction. Yes, the original Star Wars made mistakes too but that one never tried to be nerdy with this space fuel crap. It was a fairy tale for adults happening in space, they didn't cared about distance or fuel or eating or using toilet. The sequels try to be smart but they don't understand the science so they make crap like yhat you talking about or crap when the starkiller base killed 5 planet in one shot and people saw it from the planet. Jar Jar doesn't understand space at all, and Ruin doesn't care about Star Wars. Your lore friendly answer doesn't exist. Your real answer is: Lazy Screenwriting.
For what it's worth, this sort of thing is actually a common issue with /any/ space opera setting. It's very hard to design an FTL system that isn't easy to use as a WMD.
Yes hyperdrives are expensive. Yet the alliance puts them on all their fighters. You also have to assume that, like any military organization, there are expected losses. This is also ignoring the fact that MASS is all that matters for a hyperdrive ramming ship. You don't need weapons, shields or anything else but a hyperdrive, rudimentary maneuvering, and probably some remote piloting ability (assuming you don't want to kill anyone). If it's a drone, you don't need life support either. Take a large ship shell, fill it with mass (like crap from any asteroid belt), point and shoot.
@Phantom Gaming Not really. Looks for inaccuracies in an established film universe about (among other things) people who can manipulate gravity with their bare hands, that contradicts what that universe has set up. Film 8 in a series kinda has to fit in line with what the previous 7 movies have established. Let's take Leia doing her space walk for example. Is it possible that a force user might learn to create a protective bubble around them so they could survive in space. Even if it hasn't been done before, I guess someone could do that. But not someone that has never trained their force powers. And even if that person can pull it off, the ship they got blown out off travels through space. They're not slowing down to wait for the person, so it would fly past them rather quickly. So you can't just float right back to after you spent 30 seconds drifting out there. Can't fall overboard from a cruiseship and just swim back to it unless it stops for you. And you certainly can't just open a door that leads to outer space and just get back in without everyone in the adjacent corridor being sucked towards it along with the atmosphere in that corridor, when that's exactly how you ended up in outer space yourself. The bridge got blown open and everyone got sucked out. See, can't just look past everything as if this was a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Shit has to make some sense, with what has been established previously.
@Phantom Gaming So everything goes when watching a film, because it's just a film. If in Endgame Tony had decided to travel back in time to raise Thanos from a baby to be more compassionate so he doesn't do the snap, even though the movie said you can't change the past of your own timeline, that would be totally fine with you. Writers can just do whatever the fuck they want. Or if they hadn't turned the Skrull into good guys and it had been revealed that Captain America had been one since they found him in the ice and he had been working towards Earths destruction ever since. When the other movies clearly show that can't be true. It's just a movie. Nobody is saying the lightspeed ramming is BS because of realism. The argument is that nobody has ever done it, which kinda establishes that it can't be used that way. Because the thing about military tactics is, if you could weaponize lightspeed, people would've done so. And when movie 8 in a series throws that in, people look at the other 7 movies and go "well why didn't they do that". And none of the apologetic explanations makes sense. Holdo can't be the first to have ever thought about it. Not only is she shown to not be smart when she allows her crew to mutiny for no reason. But the officers on Snokes ship know what she's about to do, when she turns the ship around and powers up the hyperdrive. So they knew too. People wouldn't sacrifice themselves isn't gonna work because of droids, auto pilot and heroic people willing to make the sacrifice being readily available. Cost isn't a good reason either. It's much cheaper to build a ship for that purpose than building a normal large capital ship. There is a whole lot of shit you don't need in that case which cuts down cost and building time. Or you use asteroids like people pointed out. And the empire had no money problems. They certainly could've afforded this shit. Could a cruiser sized lightspeed ram take out the death star? Probably not. But it doesn't need to. Just gotta damage the part that projects the laster beam enough. About lightspeed. You realize Star Wars takes place in a galaxy, right? Like the Milky Way galaxy. Do you have any idea how big those are? The radius of the Milky Way is 52.850 lightyears. So that's how long it would take to get around travelling at the speed of light. It's called lightspeed because that's the threshold where you enter hyperspace, which is faster than lightspeed travel in a separate dimension. And if you have infinite mass at the speed of light, hell you don't need a big ship then. An X-Wing would do the same damage as a large cruiser, because both their masses would be infinite.
@Phantom Gaming Who's talking about hyper realistic? Only you. We're talking about doing things that break what previous movies have established. That's a problem. A movie in a series has to respect the "universe" and it's rules that previous movies have established. If Rey in the next movie jumps from the planets surface into space and hyperjumps to another planet, that would be a problem. If she Jedi Mind tricks a star destroyer, that would be a problem. Lucas could've done that in A new hope because it was the first movie and everything was a blank page. In Episode 8 that blank page no longer exists. 7 other movies have filled it already and you can't just throw it out like nothing. Now if Holdo had done the ramming, and the people on the transport would've been shocked and Poe would've gone "How did she do that? It's not possible to uselightspeed that way" and someone else would've answered "well the Raddus (the ship Holdo did it with) had these new experimental shields. She must've figured that those make it possible". Still the problem with the officers on Snokes ship knowing what was about to happen. And now you got to deal with that in any movie going forward, because you can just make more of these special shields. But at the very least you try to explain to the audience why it was possible now, but not in previous movies. Just doing it because it looks cool visually is not enough. Some people do care about the integrity and lore that a series has established and when it's broken like this without any explanation and brings all these problems: Like Luke even thinking about killing his nephew in his sleep for a slip second. The guy risked his life to turn his father good again. If you want to justify him doing that you can't just go "I sensed dark in him". That doesn't work with what we know about the character from previous movies. There are ways you could get there. Have a scene with Snoke and Hux where they reveal to the audience that Snoke with his mind powers influenced Luke into doing that without Luke's knowledge, so that Kylo would turn on Luke and destroy what he had built and Snoke could get his hands on him. Then the audience knows why Luke did something that goes against his character, but he doesn't. And you can go this "he blamed himself and became a hermit" route and people can get on board and actually have sympathy with Luke. The way the movie did it to justify this hermit thing made no sense with what we know about Luke. This is his sisters and best friends son, he has watched growing up and that has at that point done nothing evil. And we're supposed to believe he'd consider killing him. But tries to save Vader who had done horrible things and with whom he had no connection other than finding out he was his father. Get the fuck out of here, if those inaccuracies don't matter because it's a film. Because some of us like to actually use our brains and we have some standards that a movie has to meet when telling a story.
"Hyper drive is expensive", so are nukes. "It cost a lot for maintenance and upkeep", just like nukes. We drop bombs worth half a million for target practice. Just strap it to a bunch of asteroids lead a fleet into a field and instant win. Its even an ambush tactic.
Harry Michelson cuz we never tested nukes underground or in the ocean. We never conducted high altitude explosions or irradiated our own troops. We just flew a bomber over Japan and hoped the calculations where prefect. Earthquakes from North Korea, they must be fracking for oil.
They could also cheap out with the hyperdrive, it would only ever need to be used twice at most for a dedicated hyperdrive ram weapon. Once to arrive close by and a second time to do the ram.
The rebels could have just purchased a few scrappy old freighters from the junkyard and rammed them into the Death Star. Considering the amount of damage the Raddus caused to the enemy fleet, I'm sure crashing a few Corellian freighters into the Death Star would have completely obliterated it.
Or just strap a few old hyperdrive units onto asteroids, slam them all into your enemy's capitol buildings and shipyards, and win the war with no battles, no friendly casualties, and none of your own ships lost. Nobody would wage war any other way if this was possible.
Money isnt infinite...except for the 1st order apparently. We see all the kanto bight schmucks that sell them weapons, but where do they get the money? Srsly how many flag ships have they lost now? Even if they are some remnant of the empire the movies never explain that
Interesting explanation, however, I still think it's a cheap, poorly thought out cliché. Hyperspace drives are valuable but not uncommon and using this tactic means every ship captain could extort planets by threatening them with an extinction level event. It would be like every person on earth having access to their own personal nuke. I always figured when a ship entered hyperspace, it entered a different dimensional space that made no physical contact with this one.
AnyOtherNamePlease - that is how hyperspace works, what we saw in the last Jedi was the ship colliding with the supremacy during the "run up" phase: before entering hyperspace (the other dimension), the ship performs a real space acceleration (we see that in the form of the ships "whizzing" in and out). And in the theme of this video: that's What Makes doing this trick so much harder because you have to do it close enough to the enemy that you collide with them before you enter hyperspace(and pass straight through them), but not too close so you have gathered up enough.... hyperspace-ness, otherwise your simple kinetic collision will be absorbed by the Shields.
Richard Blumberg They have to Go around the gravity wells. Get to close to a sun, big planet, or interdicter, and the gravity well pulls the ship out of hyperspace.
Richard Blumberg - planets and other large bodies generate something in Star Wars called "mass Shadows" as gravitational fields can be strong enough to exert influence in the other dimension known as hyperspace, hyperspace lanes are just well-known (and therefore safe) mapped routes.
AnyOtherNamePlease Oh, how cliche. So derivative. I mean hyperspace ramming? That trope's existed since the earliest notions of storytelling came into existence. Remember that scene in Romeo and Juliet where Mercutio is killed when tybalt crashes his space ship into his? How trite!
With all due respect, you are wrong. The largest ship the resistance had, or a paperclip: the kinetic damage alone would have been far greater than even what we saw in the movie. It probably would have taken out a small moon. And yes, a hyperdrive is expensive, but not as expensive as losing a planet to the death star. 1 frigate vs 1 deathstar = you come lightsyears ahead on a cost vs loss evaluation. I use Kyle's ""Because Science" video as the basis for my hypothesis. It was done in this movie because it looked cool. It was never done in past movies because the star wars lore had interdiction class vessals providing anti lightspeed fields specifically designed to prevent this tactic and prevent hostile ships from fleeing (their fields caused ships to instantly drop out of lightspeed). Large, expensive vessals like the deathstar & Supremacy had these systems built into them as well.
Yea,sure hyper-ramming the death star might have worked,but you know what else worked,and was cheaper? A well aimed shot by Luke Skywalker. It's all about finding the cheapest option
There are other variables to take into account such as hyperdrives probably aren't a generator you can just strap on to anything and it just launches off into hyperspace. Also the FO didn't continue firing on the Resistance ship because it was empty and the passengers were on the transports. The FO would've just shot it down as it was turning around slowly and charging the hyperdrive. And come on dude, its science fantasy not science fiction. The laws of physics don't apply in a universe where someone can shoot lightning from their hands or have a fight like Obi vs Ani
That Beast Named Mike "hyperdrives probably aren't a generator you can just strap on to anything and it just launches off into hyperspace." X Wings have hyperdrives so we know that they can make them pretty small, and cheap enough to place them onto fighters. If they can do that, then why wouldn't they have hyperspace missiles? Hyperdrives might be expensive, but not as expensive as capital ships. If you can afford to equip your standard fighters with hyperdrives then you sure as shit can afford to strap them to a missile.
actully, according to what we can see in the movie and "star wars physics" (cough cough), u need at least something one third the size/mass of the death star to completely destroy it, ramming a frigate will do a maximum damage of perhaps lucky disabling the superlazer for a few days, the only effective hyperspace weapon scenario will only be to ram into ur enemy's command bridge carrying some important officer. I don't even think killing a jedi is worth losing a bigass ship.
You guys are taking this to far, there’s a lot of things that don’t make sense in Star Wars for instance; sound in space, they are just fun movies and you don’t have to scientifically prove everything you see on screen
This video is crazy - I feel you've grasped the complete wrong end of the stick with these points. You argue that hyperdrives are pricey, the rebellion lacks resources, and their officers realised that scrappy improvisational tactics are enough to get the job done. But hyperspace ramming IS the cheap and scrappy tactic. The perfect mix of cost-effective ingenuity. The rebellion should be in love with it. They already have the hyperdrives. Dozens get destroyed in battle anyway. You strip out everything else that costs money. Stack in the mass - so space rocks. Easily matching something with the mass of the Raddus. Remove the pilots and just use droids, so there's no human cost. And in exchange you get something that can annihilate a Star Destroyer if it "gets lucky". And what the heck does get lucky even mean? This seems like an absurdly simple tactic. You tell the droid to fly close to the target and press the "delete enemy fleet" button. Or maybe have the ship break in half so the tail-end hyperdrives into the front end to make the space shrapnel. Consider also that Holdo managed this. Holdo, of all people. If someone of her competence level achieved it, then this should be a piece of cake for everybody else.
Nah, when the Rebellion was about to lose Yavin 4 to the Deathstar 2 they could have used transports to destroy the Deathstars laser, one ship into the dish would have crippled it. Losing a hyperdrive/ship would have been a small price to pay for all those pilots lost.
First of all, the Death Star was huge. Really, really huge. Therefore the laser dish was also huge, much bigger than an Imperial-class Star Destroyer so they'd need not a small amount of ships bigger than starfighters (I don't know how close you have to get for an efficient ram but bigger ships'd likely get destroyed by turbolasers before jumping). Second of all, the Death Star laser had several reactors and just one was able to effectively destroy the mark (Jedha, Scarif). So even if you managed to get close enough to ram the dish, you'd have to destroy all of the reactors to render its laser unoperational. The amount of ships (bigger than starfighters) you'd have to sacrifice is ludicrous.
The Death Star 2 was shielded... By the point that it wasn't shielded, they could (and did) already easily send in smaller ships to destroy it from the inside.
1:30 Your argument feels cherry-picked and poorly supported. EC Henry: "Hyper drives are expensive". Uses clip from Phantom Menace of Watto saying: "You might as well buy a new ship, it would be cheaper I think, eh?" (Probably in reference to acquiring a new hyperdrive for the Nubian yacht) That comment from Watto just tells me that the hyperdrive for their specific ship is expensive. If you can buy a new ship, presumably with, a hyperdrive for less than the cost to replace the hyperdrive on their ship, that tells me the cost of a hyperdrive can range dramatically. Like a replacement Ferrari engine may cost more than the list price of a brand new Ford automobile. 1:40 "Hyperdrives aren't some cheap expendable technology" I disagree. If you can scavenge functioning hyperdrive units, maybe even entire fully-functional starships, from junkyards, that says a lot about the availability and perceived value of that technology. 1:48 "A cash-strapped rebellion has absolutely no business destroying such a valuable resource for one kill" How do you think the rebellion acquired many of their ships? I believe the acquisition process is "beg, borrow or steal". I point to the GR-75 transports and the Y-wing fighters
Also it's made clear that Watto is trying to squeeze as much money as possible out of Qui Gon so he's not exactly trustworthy. The issues with hyperspace ramming extend beyond just the OT and sequels where it would be used by a small rebellion (and it wasn't even small in the sequels since they're on the same side as the galactic republic and iirc Leia was involved in the government) so the argument about it being expensive is even weaker. The argument about the size of the ship is also weak since at that speed, size means nothing. He counters his own argument by mentioning the impact of the debris, since they do equal damage to the other ships.
I do think there's kind of a reason Watto sounded Italian, it's like being in the middle of nowhere and like, "We need a new transmission for this Lamborghini.'
Hyperdrive equipped ships are incredibly common in star wars. Even back water planets have tons of them visiting regularly. They seem at least as common as ocean going vessels are today.
Counterarguments. I'm going to avoid real-world physics, because Star Wars: -Hyperdrives are costly: As costly as, say, a Death Star? Attach a hyperdrive to an asteroid; unless Star Destroyers were made on the SUPER CHEAP (which, take a look; they practically can't be), the maximum cost for a hyperdrive+asteroid can't be greater than the minimum for a hyperdrive+capital ship. -The Raddus was a really big ship: Okay, get a really big asteroid. Problem solved. -All of these factions were very efficient and calculating with their investments: Wait, seriously? The TWO DEATH STARS (and the Federation ship in Phantom Menace), which had hilarious video game weak spots, plus the Executor and a dozen other canon examples outside the movie, have all hilariously bad track records. If I were in charge of any of those armies, especially if I was desperate like the CIS or the Rebel Alliance in Episode V, I would shout aloud: "The best answer is often the simplest one, and that's definitely true here! Get some asteroids from Bespin; we're going nuclear!" --Now, a brief side note: If there was a surgical strike, for example, you would definitely want smaller craft and away teams. It's why the US has SEAL Teams, for example. Star Destroyers have no place in a galaxy like this, because their goal is to destroy objects rather than pick off small targets, and neither would any fighter larger than, say, a Y-wing. Look, I'm not saying that any of these factions were rolling with cash, but a 10:1 kill:loss value is better than any odds the CIS or Republic ever had, and potentially really good value for the Rebellion as well. The New Republic, aside from potentially ethical issues, would surely invest in something like this just in case, especially with the First Order on their heels.
Actually, depending on how seriously you take the EU, the Republic was scoring something in the range of a 20:1 kill:loss value during the Clone Wars. The Clone Troopers were very good at their jobs.
Trygve Plaustrum How would you stabilise and move the asteroid into position? Would you build a spaceship around the asteroid? Well now you've just built a spaceship. Would you just use a bigger ship to transport and fire it? Well now you have a non-standard missile which you probably don't have the weaponry to fire. And outfitting your ships with asteroid cannons is not as efficient as just designing some sort of hyperspace torpedo that works with existing hardware.
Trygve Plaustrum in one of the original star Wars , solo said something about planets and big bodies being a danger for poorly calculated hyperspace flight , he didn't mentioned other ships. I'm supposing that when you enter hyperspace you get intangible to other crafts , debris and asteroids that might be in the way. What holdo did in the movie was accelerate to close to hyperspace without actually entering it, which I think it's harder and are not a thing that the main programming of the hyperspace computers are built to do
Trygve Plaustrum Im sorry I stopped reading when you kept comparing the cost of a Death Star... the first one took almost 2 decades to build, but not the second, meaning money was the issue not building time, also... the Rebellion doesnt use the Empires resources
Yes, it still breaks the lore. Holdo destroyed half a dozen Star detroyers and severely crippled the flagship with ONE cruiser. A full on, drawn out space battle would’ve cost way more in resources and lives since an equal number of resistance ships would likely be destroyed before that many Star destroyers were taken down. So yeah, this breaks the lore and mechanics of Star Wars space battles since there’s no reason for it to be a non-existant maneuver up to this point. To put it better: The US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of WWll because they knew more lives and resources would be lost on both sides in a land invasion. The big, decisive weapons were used to end the conflict and prevent more bloodshed in the broader scope. Putting a couple cruisers on autopilot and light ramming them into an enemy fleet is no different. It greatly reduces the duration of the following battle, and therefore reduces expenses and loss of life.
Alright, so like the Star Wars film writers, it seems that you have a few gaps in your knowledge of physics. Question: What happens if you take an object the size of a watermelon and slam it into a planet at 10% the speed of light? Answer: You get an explosion larger than most friggin nukes! With this in mind, you could take an object the size of a British double-decker bus, accelerate it to low fractional C, and have yourself a weapon that could easily cause an extinction level event. Now, this isn't particularly obscure or complex information. So, the old expanded universe had an explanation for why we didn't see people using these kinds of weapons constantly. Basically, it was written that hyperspace engines didn't work near major gravity wells, like a solar system. So, you could go over light speed to get from Star System to Star system, but you couldn't ram other ships with it, because you'd fall out of hyperspeed before you could. But, then Abrams got rid of that rule in The Force Awakens. Once he did, I knew a mess like this would be inevitable at some point. Basically, your defense is that, since the explosion wasn't that big, it doesn't make a difference. But, that simply doesn't matter. Basic physics dictate that even a single X-wing traveling at half the speed of light should absolutely pound a planet in a Death Star like manner. Just because the writers didn't understand this, doesn't make it any less true. This is why anyone with a good grasp on science fiction is taken back when they see this scene. They have a good grasp of the consequences. You can't have casual FTL weaponry in a setting where a barely mobile planet destroying weapon is a huge deal. They simply can't mutually co-exist without breaking the setting. Basically, as of TLJ, any X-wing is a plausible planet buster, which kinda undermines the plot in many of the films. This was an extremely sloppy move on the writers part, and further demonstrates why big sci-fi films need science advisors.
I had this long response to this video all typed up then I saw your comment, and deleted it. You did a much better job explaining this than I ever could. Excellent post.
Thanks. Anyhow, I don't want to sit and criticize the creator of this video too much, so I'm probably not going to add too much. The conclusions he comes to are understandable enough if you're only looking at the physics of this scene through a Newtonian lens, and that's the flavor of physics people tend to be most familiar with. The problem is that a lot of sci-fi fans tend to know stuff like this. And yeah, that certainly is not the entire audience, or even most of the audience, but it is a good large portion of the long-time residents of the whole Star Wars fanbase. These are the people that tend to care the most and help form everybody else's opinions. Therefore, sloppy writing like this tends to have a big impact. No pun intended. Additionally, if this was the only thing wrong with this film, people would've been a lot more forgiving. I myself would've chalked it up to a whoopsie and tried to ignore it. But, it's hard to ignore stuff like this when there's a lot of other problems as well. Taken together, it all seems to point to a lack of care that you wouldn't expect in a film that's intended to earn a billion dollars. I mean, with that sort of money at stake, you'd think the studio would be hiring the best writers, bringing in lore experts, scientific advisors, the works. Instead, it appears as though they were just making things up as they were going, and that sort of thing probably just isn't going to fly anymore.
you assuming hyperdrive/warp drive does this by accelerating the object rather than somehow warping space-time. From what in understand of a star-wars hyperdrive is a spacetime warp rather than an acceleration (the people in the ship are not flattened into pulp so it cant be acceleration) so the damage is not coming from the collision of the objects but rather the edge of a not 100% perfect space-time bubble.
Exchanging corvette for capital ship would be very useful tactic, its dumb saying it is waste of resources when you spend less than enemy so this is breaking lore.
Or for example attacking important target, how many ships are lost in average SW battles for destroying something that one hyperspace engine would do cheaper, like that shield. They would have to just ram it and enter planet from any direction with escape way open. Or just shoot something out from ship when accelerating to hyperspace. Its mess now, not like ww2 style battles of Lucas. If they needed ram, they could did it in sublight speed and say that core exploded or something...
Not to mention the presumably cash-strapped rebellion puts hyperdrives on all is fighters. The "expense" shown there was the type of drive, not all drives (in fact if you convert credits to commodity prices, you'll also find that ships are pretty cheap in the star wars universe).
You contradict yourself saying that the Rebels are “crash stripped” and then “Hyperdrives aren’t cheap”. They have Hyperdrives on almost all of their ships,..
Indeed. Instead of sacrificing one x-wing, lets sacrifices a whole squadron of bombers to eliminate one Dreadnought. All those bombers and lost lives combined are way cheaper than one x-wing piloted by a droid.
Alex Ruiz Or you, instead of loosing one x-wing/hyperdirve in a hyperspace ram could loose 40 x-wings/hyperdrives in some batshit insane trench run with a .001% chance of succeeding.
Well Obviously all the money went into Poe's special X-wing, considering the bombers had 0 shields and 0 armor plating. They couldn't give that up so easily!
The ship's size wasn't important, but its mass. It was big because it needed to house a lot more personnel. You can produce smaller, yet more dense vessels purposely designed to ram.
Or just strap a few hyperdrive units onto asteroids, slam them all into your enemy's capitol buildings and shipyards, and win the war with no battles, no friendly casualties, and none of your own ships lost. Nobody would wage war any other way if this was possible.
The separatists could have used this strategy with drone ships. Instead of a bunch of fighters flying around stick a hyper drive (or partial one, since the ship never has to reach light speed) to the drone fighters and use them as swarm missiles with no loss of life.
1:30 Hyperdrives are expensive. No they are not, they may be for someone like watto but not for like an organized rebellion or someone on the core worlds, almost all ships have them. 2:48 ''is more usefull as a functional ship'' can you tell me how exactly, because it could not take out all those ships with fire power.... 2:56 ''You should not use it because its dangers to your own ships and polutes space''. 1. Why send other ships if 1 can blow up the whole fleet. and we clearly see it only moveing 1 direction.? 2. Like normal battles don't pollute space like are you even trying to think reasonably at this point?
Haha dreman999 you only answered 1/4 of his comment and you didn't even take the time to think... Either you confuse the rebellion and the resistance (he was talking about the rebellion which was organised), or you just chose to forgot return of the jedi 3rd act. So what you said to try to defend this stupid video's arguments is wrong making your answer go from 1/4 of a valid defense to 0/4
dreaman999 if your talking about the resistance that is true but than an other problem arises, why is the resistance so small while being backed by republic. And why is the first order so big, it doesnt make sense. The orignal plan for the first order was that they where ment to be like a small group of nazis that escaped to argentina but now there suddenly hugh and get rescourses from who know where ????
Brave Soldi3r 1. The resistance is not being back by the republic. 2. The first order is not big. Just more advance. 3.Look at return of the jedi. All those ships are the entire fleet. The rebellion did not get large time after Palpatine died. The rebel fleet was small at the time of the death star. So small they need to depend of fighters to dost of the heavy lifting. In new hope they were divided in cell working independently. They had to take take ship made for non military use and convert them b3 able to fight. The only ship they made with their own funds were b wings, x wings, and a wings. The x wing were all already made for the clone war. B wings were too expensive to mass produce. And a wing were stuck in development hell and even then only the best pilots could fly them. Sorry but the rebellion had super low funded.
Rabbox no . I did not. Look at return of the jedi. All those ships are the entire fleet. The rebellion did not get large time after Palpatine died. The rebel fleet was small at the time of the death star. So small they need to depend of fighters to dost of the heavy lifting. In new hope they were divided in cell working independently. They had to take take ship made for non military use and convert them b3 able to fight. The only ship they made with their own funds were b wings, x wings, and a wings. The x wing were all already made for the clone war. B wings were too expensive to mass produce. And a wing were stuck in development hell and even then only the best pilots could fly them. Sorry but the rebellion had super low funded.
The nerdist show "Because Science" has already addressed this. And the consensus is that impacting anything at super luminal speeds with any manner of mass would be catastrophic. The only reason the Supremacy didn't convert into excited particles and photons is because the movie necessitated it. But in reality the energies involved were so great that they rival those found in super colliders.
And if that were the case the ship would not have interacted with the Supremacy at all, yet it did. Whatever their explanation of hyperspace is, what the movie shows, and what is now canon, is that the ship accelerates to super luminal velocity at least partially in it's transition. Thus, the impact was under sold.
I think it also has to do with that Star Wars uses advanced materials and force fields in the construction of their ships. This is a civilization that can build cities the size of Earth and generate more power than all the stars in the Milky Way galaxy combined.
Even if you built things out of solid neutronium (The stuff neutron stars are made of, In which case your own structure would crush you with it's own gravity.) if you strike it with super luminal anything, it will vaporize. writers and sci fi fans underestimate what kinds of energies are involved in a faster than light object. It could be made of icecream and still crack a planet.
Yes, but again, Star Wars seems capable of some fantastic feats when it comes to structual integrity, force fields, shields and power generation. Having the technology to survive a relativistic impact is no more fantastic than harvesting the power equivalent of quasars and hypernovae.
@@SeanWheeler100 The longer the war goes on the more ships and droids get destroyed. What is going to cost more in the end? Its not like the republic can quickly replace all the clones that they would lose in every attack.
@@fallencrow6718 Of course the Republic couldn't quickly replace all the clones because Jango Fett is dead, the Kaminoans have a limited supply of his DNA. And clones take a decade to grow. And of course the droids and ships would get destroyed throughout the war, so they would not want to risk them on suicide attacks that have one-in-a-million chances.
Still a plothole. Every Rebel ship that was about to be destroyed should have done this as a "last effort", and as it seems from the movie, it just needs mass, and not even a fully functioning hyperdrive, it just needs to accelerate to close light speed. I think the rebels would certainly sacrifice any large ship to take out at least seven Star Destroyers.
I'm pretty sure that's what people thought it was, I don't recall if that was ever properly confirmed or denied. The only instance of "ramming" through hyperspace I'd ever seen outside of TLJ was a single mission of Battlefront 2 where a Rebel Mon-Cal cruiser tries to jump to hyperspace while your Star Destroyer is blocking it's path, what the results of that would've been you never see because if you lose the objective to destroy their engines you reload a checkpoint and if you succeed you blew up their engines and they can't jump.
@@QuestionableObject pretty sure there was a battlecruiser that fractured a planet in the clone wars. It was a praetor class and the planet was where the malevolence was built. Can't remember the names.
A body with a Large enough gravity (for example a star) can pull ships out of hyperspace. In this particular situation, I think the radius didnt enter hyperspace yet. It was speeding up, but never achieved full speed.
at least based on normal starwars being accrate with hyperdrive is very hard. They alwasy come out of hyperdrive well above plannets they dont want to risk appearing in solid rock.
matthaus wollard This is because they're aiming at targets that are thousands of light years away. It's a bit different if you're aiming at a target that's merely a couple million kilometers away. Hyperdrives are extremely accurate, in fact.
There's "extremely accurate", and then there's "can score a direct hit on a two-meter-wide target (that you can't see) from kilometers away." Even using the Force isn't going to get you that close.
a. the core was not "two-meter-wide" b. The shrapnel (as seen in this video) create a shotgun effect which makes it much easier to hit. My main beef would be if it has enough penetrating power though. After all the Death star was VERY big.
When on both Death stars the shields were down I wouldn't have wasted that much personnel, resources, and equipment. I would have loaded the biggest ship I got with a bunch of antimatter nukes and ram both at lightspeed especially knowing that the emperor was on board
when you go into hyperspace you literally enter a new dimension it is impossible to hit anything and when you fly close to a planet the gravitational pull stops you from moving when you use intradictors they creat an artificial gravity field that’s how the work.
No it wouldn't. Assuming a 45 gram golf ball it would end up with around 4000 Terajoules of kinetic energy. That's about as much as the US' B83 nuke or 40-50 times less than the Tsar bomba, the most powerful nuke ever tested. I don't think a single B83 would be enough to destroy the death star. Now hyperdrives in the SW universe can go beyond the speed of light and that could change things. But at 1c there's just not enough kinetic energy from such a small object.
@@Frikgeek Wrong. As an object accelerates closer to the speed of light, its kinetic energy tends towards infinity. This is why no object with mass can reach the speed of light, as it requires an infinite amount of energy to do so. If an object with any mass was at the actual speed of light, the energy released upon impact would be enough to break physics. It would overwhelm the strong nuclear force and electromagnetic force by an infinite order of magnitudes.
@@Frikgeek Mass approaches infinity as speed approaches light. This is defined in E=MC^2 taking as E/C^2=M, where the mass increases the higher the energy (speed is). It's important to remember this is an abstracted factor, so as it gains energy the denominator effectively begins to approach 0, making the mass infinite. This is why something can't actually travel faster than light, it requires so much energy and causes such a gravitational well that it collapses into an infinitesimal black hole.
You could just put a hyperdrive on an asteroid and have that fly into it. In the Phantom Menace, it was more the type of hyperdrive then the it being a drive. Well in the force awakens, you had to ship use its hyperdrive to get onto a planet even though the planet has of strong gravity well. Now we have in the Last Jedi we have a ship taking out other ships using hyperdrive. It would feel like this should be far more common in the Star Wars universe.
>In the Phantom Menace, it was more the type of hyperdrive then the it being a drive. That, and George Lucas is a car guy. With your car, if your engine or transmission (or God forbid, *both*) needs to be replaced, and you don't have insurance or a warranty, most mechanics will tell you that it would be cheaper to buy a used car in better condition than it would be to buy new parts and pay to have them installed.
ebiljebus Pretty much, it's not the type of part, it's the part. A Ferrari engine is more expensive to get than a brand new Honda civic. - at least that's my understanding.
Alright I hear your side. But what about when dealing with Death Stars. Logically nothing can stop a Hyper-speed jump attack (Heck it tore through the Supremacy, so why not have one fighter hit the Death Star's weakness at those speeds, instead of sending your entire army and losing most of them. I get the tactic can't be used a lot. But what if you need to take down a high value target. Like Vader or The Emperor, why wouldn't you use it then. When they stole the plans for the Death Star, they knew which ship Vader was still on, they could have killed Vader if they used the tactic.
The Death Star had enough mass to create its own mass shadow, and it was heavily armored against capital ship bombardment. Going to hyperspace while inside a gravity well is risky at best, and likely to rip your ship apart before it gets there at the worst.
The Death Star's shields were absurdly strong. Strong enough that shooting it was completely out of the question. And the size of that thing was colossal. Sure, if you fired one of your capital ships at the Death Star, you might do some serious damage to its surface structure, and maybe even a bit of interior damage. Kill a bunch of staff. But you're not going to cause critical damage with it. You're not going to cripple the space station or take down its main gun doing that, and again, that's assuming your ship doesn't just explode against the Death Star's shields. Remember during the Battle of Endor, the Rebellion couldn't even get CLOSE to the Death Star until they took down its shields. A hyperspeed attack would just result in the unfortunate ship exploding against its shields. As for hitting the Death Star's weak point.... what, you mean the exhaust port? All you'd do is blow up the port itself, it's extremely unlikely the ship would actually penetrate through the Death Star far enough to blow up the reactor. It'd make it about a hundred meters in, tops, and leave a giant pile of wreckage blocking it. Which sure, could be a problem, but not necessarily one that'd take out the station.
The Death Star's exhaust port was a weakness because it gave access to the reactor for an explosive, one that needed to cause a chain reaction with the main reactor itself. It's unlikely a ship could have done that, without even considering the difficulty of getting a fighter aimed at the proper point (it's a zone about 1m in diameter iirc).
"The Raddus was huge and didn't even utterly destroy the Supremacy, so why bother?" A single heavy cruiser took out the flagship, and all its escorts (which weren't even protecting the flag like they should have, which is a problem common to all of Rian's blunders with space battles), crippling them even if not entirely destroying them. Hyperspace ramming, as we are shown on-screen, has an incredibly high effective force multiplier factor (1 heavy cruiser to cripple 1 supercarrier plus 8 heavy cruisers). It is, empirically, better to have use the bombers in the first battle of the movie to use their hyperdrives to attempt this to at least damage weapons on the dreadnought than to attempt their bombing, considering this incredibly high force multiplier factor. This is something, that, just by the numbers, outweighs almost all other tactics shown. There would be no fleet battles, no formations, if hyperspace ramming didn't break the lore.
when you enter hyperspace travel you literally cant hit anything not even other ships you enter a different dimension while traveling and you get stopped by gravitational pulls like from intradictors or planets.
1:00 The primary target was mauled beyond the point where building a new starship is cheaper than repairing existing one. Even if it wasn't the Raddis tore almost in half (as in, nearly hit it in the middle) a starship that was13 km long, 60 wide and 3 tall. Merely cutting it in half would pay off Raddis. -shooting a hyperspace missile at the death star would be much cheaper than using a raddis against supremacy. I hope you DO remember what shrapnell did to the fleet, do you? Now imagine all of that scaled down a little and directed from the surface of a deathstar towards it's core. If everytime Empire employed deathstar rebels would use single missile imperium would fuck it's own budget. - If rebels had those missiles carried by relatively cheap upshielded and uparmored transporters the Empire would face a lot of insubordination in their Navy. No sane captain would fly towards a ship that can pretty much obliterate a fleet with a salvo for fraction of it's cost. It is especially effective if we consider how much it would cost rebel alliance to fight in a brawl with a fucking Navy. 1:26 Small craft and improvisational tactics were usually enough? One of those clips you have shown was battle in Rouge One where we see that a few Y-wings can without any problem take out a star destroyer down (and that is pretty much the only instance of that happening). Those crafts were part of a much larger force and we have to consider losses that occured to allow such a shot. The other is lukes very fucking impressive force-aided shot after loosing an entire wing of well trained starfighter pilots and every one of their star fighters had a hyperdrive. Tell me, how are those two supposed to be an argument against hyperspace missiles?? 1:48 Still, sending five x-wing sized hyperspace missiles without many systems needed for the pilot at the deathstar would be much cheaper than what actually happened. Hell, you dont need highest class. Just take the class 6, 12 or sth. 3:44 Why THIS wasn't used more? It's the only instance we see that shit.
you should also remember all relevant characters survived and ship was cut in half but both sides were mostly intact after the crash indicating it wasn't that devastating damage. so death star would be pretty much intact. shooting missile don't make sense as it will explode right during the contact and death star has strong armor. same goes for small ships as it will explode during contact and materials would burn up quickly before they can do any real damage. also lukes shot was one in a million and it is clearly shown computer cannot calculate it down to that precision so guided missile is not going to be of any help. also speaking of lore breaking crashes, did you see in ROTJ a small ship crashes into the bridge and how it takes down entire destroyer which then takes out another destroyer? star wars always had lore breaking stuff. and lets say rebel did use hyperspace ramming, empire/writers would just come up with tech to mitigate that. just like how there are people who can resist the mind tricks. so it really doesn't break anything at all.
@@Bothandle70 Novelisation stated that ship is beyond repair. And Raddis paid itself back. Additionally it was destroyed in a cone. The deatshstar would look like a head shot with a 12 gauge slug. No, it will not. We are not talking about classical missiles carrying explosive warheads. We are talking starfightersized pieces of metal slung at relativistic velocity. We have seen the effects of something like that. Deathstar's armor will not protect against it. even if we assume that this missile's shrapnell would not penetrate all the way through it would turn insides of a deathstar into a mush. In a cone of course. RELATIVISTIC SPEED. A pin at relativistic speed would have KE comparable to little boy. Now imagine a few tons of metal having the same speed. It will be more than a few million times more KE. And with what happened to the fleet... And how your remark about Luke connects to anything i said? That didn't happen. It was SSD. The shields were down and something was wrong with point defence. The fighter screen did it's job but there happened an accident. The pilot of A-wing lost ability to controll his craft and hit the bridge. The SSD unluckilly didn't have seccondary bridge so it was drawn by Deathstars gravity well. Those two you speak about were in Rouge One but that is entirely different story. If they would come up with it THAN it would not break the lore. And the people resisting mind tricks was a thing from almost beginning as it was revealed organically so your comparison is a bullshit.. Oh, wait. The nineth one said that Holdo maneouvre is one in a million. Talk about bad odds. It created many more problems with a plot.
What I'm trying to say is, if people use it one time, others would come up with tech to counter it. That's how story telling works. If there is an unfair power writers will even the playing ground. Another example: death star is unfair power so writers will put weakness in it so that heroes can succeed. Just like my example of jedi mind trick. Same goes for hyper speed ramming. It's storytelling 101. So even if someone did use hyper speed ram 1000 years ago, writers will disable that power as it gets in the way of storytelling. Which means it won't break rest of the stories. Getting technical is useless. In the same way there are techs for hyperspace tracking or pulling the ships out of hyperspace, there would be tech against hyperspace ramming. Another example of even playing ground: Vader is super powerful so writers put weaknesses in him that he is Luke's father.
@@Bothandle70 But it was not done. If it was done you would have basis to say that. Deathstar was done that way. Hyperspace ramming wasn't. Jedi mindtrick was done that way. Hyperspace ramming wasn't. You would have a case if it was done. As it was not you do not have any. Stop writing lore for the creators. It will still be only head canon. Are you FUCKING kidding me? You call important plot point a weakness? How did it weaken Vader? It was plotpoint and character development. Stop talking bullshit.
@@kronos661 exactly. it wasn't used before so it doesn't break lore. if it was used before and it didn't work then you could say it breaks the lore. relax, i'm not saying vader is weak but on the contrary. vader was too strong for luke to beat wthout going dark. what i'm saying is, him being father of luke weakend vader looking from the point of view of bad guys. and luke used that weakness to defeat emperor.
This explaination makes no sense what so ever: Ekin=0.5*m*v^2, basically any size ship can inflict a massive amount of damage, that Raddus was probably the cost of 100s of X-wings launch those at the Death Star and it would have been destroyed with the cost of 1 capital ship, besides we know that droids can do the hyperspace jumps and the necessary calcutions already, accuraccy wouldnt be an issue nor would loss of life be ... Aditionally you only need the hyperdrive some hunk of metal and a droid to make these weapons, no need to actually sacrifice a whole fighter, justtake out the hyperspace drive and use the extra power and decreased mass to outperform any other starfighter. Edit: if the destruction is caused by the transition into hyperspace then the thing you need is not a huge ship you need a equvilant hyperdrive to perform the same thing, then the mass of the ship will have little influence on the outcome. Conclusion: YES IT FUCKING BREAKES ALL THE LORE
It kinda breaks logic of the universe because a small to medium sized ship with a hyperspace drive provably costs infinitely less then a giant capital ship or even a frigate. Hell you don't even need a fully functional ship for that. And as we all can clearly see a such kamikaze attack absolutely shreds big ships. You can't even defend yourself from something like that. By this point i'm wondering how come capital ships didn't become obsolete in the star wars universe, just like capital ships in our world? Besides if you can hurl giant ships through hyperspace, how come nobody created a mass driver canon, that hurls big chunks of metal to wreak big ship?
Actually, you do need a fully functional ship. Since you would need a power source, hyperdrive, shields, sublight drives, navigation, sensors, etc. And you can defend against it as they can detect the ships coming and charging their hyperdrive long before they do so. Hux had the opportunity to stop the Raddus but ignored it because he was so certain it was a distraction. And how would a mass driver be in anyway effective in battle?
Christopher Hopp, yeah but you don't need a fully decked out ship. No need for weapons, life support (you can use droids as pilots) shields are optional. As for mass drivers, i'm not well versed in sci-fi tech, but i meant hyperdrive torpedoes. Big chunks of steel with a small reactor, targeting computer and a cheap hyperdrive. Of course kamikaze ships and hyperdrive torpedoes are not cheap, but if they can bring down a fucking stardestroyer, then i think they are worth the investment. As for defending agains this things, well yeah, you can shoot them down if you can detect them. If rebels are smart, they can use a variety of underhanded tactics such as disguising kamikaze ships as trade and civilian ships.
Suggesting that a disguised kamikaze ship would get anywhere near a star destroyer, let alone begin charging its hyperdrive, before being destroyed. The Empire was willing to destroy traders just for being in the way. And one interdictor would make any hyperdrive torpedoes useless.
Константин Панфилов - I don't think gravity well generators are canon any longer. TFA showed us that you can basically land a ship from hyperdrive on top of a planet.
They came up with the whole "you're just traveling in a separate space" precisely because of the issues related with this sort of thing. If it is possible to impart crazy kinetic energy to a vessel via lightspeed travel then you can just create a hyperspace cannon that annihilates anything you want. It doesn't matter what specific components are required, if going lightspeed makes you hit stuff really hard then you can directly turn that into a weapon. It would change the entire paradigm of space combat permanently and star wars wouldn't look the way it does. A decent writer would've realized this issue, but this is the sequel trilogy we're talking about. Fans notice it immediately because it directly clashes with their suspension of disbelief. It FEELS wrong, because it is.
And that's your opinion. You can't speak for everyone else. I think that that Hyperspace ram was necessary and it is possible for a ship of that size. Like EC Henry said, to claim that you could use hyperspace missiles against the Death Star is like saying that the United States should wipe out every enemy country with a nuke. Is it a humane solution? No. Do people like the idea of nuking other people? Only the crazy ones. But the Resistance was in a desperate position. Everyone just hates on this scene because they've never seen it before and they hate Disney because it's new.
@@nickter745thebold8 If you can ram a ship this way, I can build a cheaper ship. I can make it crewless, i can make it more durable for impact so it really rips into the target, hell I can design cheaper shield generators that burn out and exhaust their entire power supply in a fraction of a second, which wont matter because I am TRYING to shred the ship. What I have just described is a missile. Do you honestly mean to tell me you cannot see the very obvious logical consequences of this maneuver even being possible? If you can impart kinetic energy to an object via warp travel for a ship, I can do it for a projectile and shred any ship you have. Hell, you cant even predict where warping ships will pass unless you see their departure vector, this is something that comes up even within the sequel trilogy! It would be a completely unpredictable, unstoppable surprise attack. It'd break the entire space warfare balance of power completely. As for your argument for ethics, not only are none of the other plans for destroying the death star any less brutal to its crew, but the death star itself is a weapon of mass destructions of unparalleled scale. Its not only ethically justified, its arguably your ethical DUTY you destroy it at just about any cost. This is not about my opinion, this is about the logical consequences of the rules they themselves set up. Please present me a single actual reason why I cannot make hyperspace missiles using the exact same principles used in the Holdo maneuver.
@@writterthecritter8791 Basically design a cheaper ship. Think a thick metal rod, something extremely durable. Strap a warp drive on it. Maybe shove a shield generator thatll only last that one trip and impact, cut costs in every way. Aim it at the target, let it rip. There's very little you can do to avoid this sort of exploitation of this phenomenon, because for the holdo maneuver to work the same rules have to apply. Either warpspeed makes you actually go physically faster (and thus it can be used as a weapon) or it gives you a shorter "path" to travel at whatever speed you were already going at, which means any impact is equivalent to however hard your ship would hit in a normal collision.
@@Dewkeeper well that assumes that you can get the same amount of damage with any ship big or small and that you could design a ship as big as the radius but cheaper. To me this makes no sense you can’t just design a missile with a hyperdrive and expect similar results to the holdo maneuver. I just can’t even imagine how that would work it is just logically impossible.
“Lucky with the shrapnel...” but you’re saying a standard MC80 ramming the Deathstar wouldn’t create enough hyper shrapnel to utterly annihilate the innards of said battle station? You make NO logical sense. The cost of ONE CRUISER could have saved half a dozen cruisers and their crews at Endor!
The death star has a shield and was the size of a small moon. Best they could have done was maybe exiting hyperdrive within it, but they probably have countermeasures. But the idea of exiting hyperdrive close to something is more a sin of Force Awakens.
@@GrandHighGamer TFA pretty much clears that up because shields don't stop things moving in hyperspace so entering hyperspace while pointing toward the Death Star is still a viable concept thanks to the Holdon'tgiveadamn maneuver. Again, even a fighter going at hyperspeed pointed toward the reactor would do the thing in because of all the shrapnel it would generate. It would be well worth the sacrifice of a skeleton crew aboard a heavy freighter or even a MC80 Cruiser to take out a planet destroying weapon. Hell, why not just design hyperspace weapons that were piloted by droid brains (Clone Wars) that could just take a giant warhead into hyperspace toward a target?
@@sandorsbox It didn't occured to you that the imperial fleet was Smart enough to bring interdictors? The rebel fleet didn't blast hyperspace out of there to escape the trap.
Le Silverhand considering that the rebel fleet was ready to retreat after Ackbar realized that the shields were still up, then of course not. And that still doesn’t explain why you wouldn’t try this tactic why not fly the stolen shuttle directly through the Deathstar? Why not use small ships by the score which could outmaneuver an interdictor? Why not target and destroy the interdictors and then hyperspace ram the Deathstar? The rebels in Rebels take them Int all the time. It also doesn’t explain why the First Order wouldn’t be prepared for this if it was such plausible thing to do. Hyperspace ramming is a HUGE PLOT HOLE!
@@sandorsbox the stolen Shuttle? Seriously, like it would do anything. And the interdictors were very well protected, there is no way the swarn of tie fighters and intercepters would have let the Y-wing anywhere near them. If there were no interdictor, why didn't blast out of there to retreat?
Exile Studios - indeed this attack would be completely nullified by a single interdictor in a fleet. Somewhat relevant idea: does the death star generate enough of a gravitational field to drop ships out of hyperspace similar to a planet?
That ship appears to have been invented for Star Wars Rebles, which while it is considered cannon, it has never been alluded to on screen outside of a few random ships and a droid.
Dreadnought AI I highly doubt it does naturally. The DS is smaller then an average moon, so it would seem odd that it has a comparable gravity to a planet. Its possible there were interdictor wells on the DS, but even that seems a little odd, and there are no interdictor domes on the surface.
How many people died attacking the shield generator in VI and the ... Achilles Port, or whatever, in VII? How many ships were destroyed? Couldn't both have been taken out with ease with a rebel-rigged hyperspace missile?
What's even worse is that Starkiller Base's shields can only be pierced by craft flying at *lightspeed.* Yep. Totally not a plot hole. Seriously though, why hasn't someone build the SW equivalent of a railgun, but with ultra-long range attacking capabilities and lightspeed missiles? Just toss in a couple turbolasers and cover up the exhaust ports or whatever the hell weak point it might have, then you pretty much win. Hell, if some made sacrifices, the Rebels could have destroyed the Emperor on Coruscant if they did that. They could have defended Hoth. They could have destroyed the Death Star as soon as it was in range of Yavin 4. They could have destroyed literally any Imperial resistance.
And here the Raddus was clearly on it's acceleration prior to transition. Same idea only difference is instead of being hit by something decelerating from hyperspace, the Supremacy was hit by an accelerating ship
Good point about polluting space with hyper-relativistic debris being a really, really bad idea. Though the Holdo maneuver may be a case of hitting something during the massive acceleration before leaving realspace, The High Republic novels actually sort of touch on this idea from a different angle. A collision that occurred *in* hyperspace resulted in a shotgun of debris gradually re-entering realspace hundreds of parsecs away, piece-by-piece, at unpredictable locations. And even with it traveling at a fraction of lightspeed, it was a multi-system-destroying disaster. Entire worlds in the line of fire had to be evacuated, and it took dozens of Jedi and thousands of spacers working together to even *try* to stop or redirect a fraction of the debris. Basically, don’t fuck with hyperspace as a weapon. It’s unpredictable and basically turns into a WMD that you cannot reliably aim. It might be a while, but I anticipate that the Holdo maneuver probably had collateral damage, ruining someone’s day months or even years later. Cue Mass Effect opining on “Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest sonafabitch in space.” This entire comments section seems needlessly hostile. There’s already a pretty satisfactory reading of canon material that can help with suspension of disbelief.
I actually had a thought about this while reading the comments. So one explanation of hyperspace is that it’s a type of dimension where the years it would take to travel between planets only takes a few minutes. Therefore if Holdo just jumped the Raddus into hyperspace it wouldn’t even impact any First Order ships (to my understanding at least). So what if Holdo was attempting one of Grand Admiral Thrawn’s favorite tactics: the precision hyperspace jump (the idea is basically jumping through hyperspace to a precise location to bypass enemy blockades or flank enemy ships). Holdo might have been trying to jump over so the First Order wouldn’t realize that she was attempting a ramming maneuver, but instead of decelerating in front of the supremacy, she decelerated the Raddus almost inside the supremacy which caused the explosion and massive shrapnel cloud. This would also explain why the maneuver was so uncommon since precision hyperspace jumps required extreme still to begin with, so something like this would require near god-like levels of skill and/or luck (which was probably the case for Holdo) to be even near as effective as it was in The Last Jedi. It also explains why hyperspace missiles aren’t a thing, since Star Wars AI computers might not be able to preform calculations that precise (keep in mind hyperspace jumps usually require people and/or droids to operate). Also who said hyperspace missiles might not actually exist if I’m wrong? They just wouldn’t be preferred since some steal-able missiles would be way more vulnerable to theft by the rebels or criminals than massive Star Destroyers and space stations. I might have gotten the facts wrong, so if you have another idea please let me know.
Losing 100 ships, so that 1 can bring down 3 star destroyers is genius. Lose 1 ship so that you can destroy 16 star destroyers and a death star sized capital ship is foolish. Yes excellent planning and tactics admiral. Consider no one convinced.
I LiKe PiGeoNs The ramming ship wouldn’t need to be nearly as big as the Raddus to take down a Star Destroyer, since SD’s are much smaller than the Supremacy.
Just my 2 cents on a long-running debate. 2 potential explanations come to mind for me. 1. Shielding and 2. Timing. 1. I think it's safe to assume that the First Order's ships shields were down at the time of Holdo's maneuver. They likely had as much power as possible diverted to engines and weapons in order to keep pressure on the Resistance fleet running away from them. Now there are clearly different kinds of shielding in Star Wars Lore, but the nature of shielding and hyperspace could be a helpful partial explanation for why this maneuver worked for Holdo, but would not work in a typical battle scenario where everyone has their shields up. 2. Timing. If we are to assume that entering Hyperspace causes a rip in space-time, then perhaps it was this ripping that caused the devastation we saw. Meaning if she was a fraction of a second too early or too late, she'd either harmlessly enter hyperspace before contact with the fleet, or she would have only succeeded in destroying her own ship and caused much less damage to Snoke's flagship and the fleet. We potentially see an example of the latter in Rogue One when Vader's ship interrupts the Rebel Fleet fleeing from Scariff, and one of their cruisers is crushed by his Star Destroyer while getting ready to make the jump to lightspeed. If Vader had entered the battle a fraction of a second later, perhaps his ship would have been destroyed in much the same way? These are just 2 thoughts that come to my mind, neither is perfect, but either or both could help explain what we saw in The Last Jedi. Being that TLJ is canon, we can only treat what what happened as an observation and use what we know about the Star Wars Universe to try and theorize as to why we observed what we did.
The reason why people say that this cene would break the lore is because they say that if that worked people would always use hyperspace ramming, but they neglect the fact that the Raddus was a huge ship and that it didn't even blow up its target. I see people saying that they would use fighters/torpedoes in hyperspace which doesn't make any sense as those objects are billions of times smaller than the Raddus and comparing the 2 is like comparing the effectiveness of a needle to the one of an armor piercing shell as a bullet. I see people saying that they could use asteroids, but if 1 huge ship wasn't even able to blow up another huge (but still, way smaller than the Death Star) ship, in order to damage the Death Star you'd probably need an asteroid hundreds of km in diameter, bigger than any ship ever built by the Rebels. We don't even know if the Rebels would have the tech so much such massive objects in hyperspace. Even if they did, losing a bunch of fighters like they did in A New Hope is certainly cheaper than making a huge asteroid move through different dimensions
And compare the First Orders formation in TLJ. The debris from the Supremecy destroyed all the smaller Resurgents that were stationed behind it. Look at other space battles in Star Wars. In what other battle are they formed like that, and are there ships big enough to cause a shotgun effect. Holdo got lucky that the First Order had such a shit formation. The only lorebreaking thing here is that Holdo could enter hyperspace with a gravitywell in the way.
I think one of the reasons the Empire or TFO didn't install HDs on the TIE fighters is to keep the pilots from defecting, the price was a secondary thought
Logical but I think the official explanation is the price factor. But I like the dependence explanation better you either go back to the station/destroyer or you die, also there is no shield because they want the pilots to be agressive and get the job done fast.
they already put bombs in the wings as "anti-theft coutermeasures" (according to rebels) so them not having a hyperdrive is because it ran on solar power (wings were solar panels) and it didn't generate enough energy for a hyperdrive
You are wrong dude. Why not sacrifice the other two ships the resistance lost to lack of fuel by hyper driving them into star destroyers? This whole hyperspace kamakazie thing was pulled out of the writers ass for one specific instance ONLY and absolutely changes every past battle if it was possible.
HyperonPrime well this has been used such as in Star Wars rebels season 4 i forget what episode but Hera uses it not to the full extent of destroying a star destroyer but it’s close enough
Mitchmat518 but wasn't holdo's ship out of fuel? And if you say she had a bit of fuel left for the lightspeed ram, why couldn't the other ships ram the first order's ships just before they ran out of fuel?
The reason why it's rare is probably because you have to hit the target before going into hyperspeed. Because if hyperspeed is its own dimension, you have to work your way up to that speed right? So you have to make sure you're close enough to hit it before turning into a mass shadow.
It's literally called lightspeed in the OT. The whole 'other dimension' thing was added in the extended universe. Fun fact: Force healing was also part of the extended universe, and also a key part of the video games. Fans love to cherry pick what can and can't be considered canon in the Star Wars franchise, even if it wrecks their other arguments.
@@Crystan the force healing thing is a problem because of the scale. Rey was healing at a visible speed and bringing people back from the brink of death effortlessly. Like when she healed Kylo. This is OP as hell as force healing now puts everything from before into a new perspective. Why didn't Anakin try learning that ability? Why didn't Obi-Wan use it on Qui-Gon? Force healing was originally far weaker and less effective than Bacta. It was exhausting to use and was most powerful/effective through self-indused healing trances. But even then, serious injuries would take a significant amount of time to heal. Broken bones for example could take weeks to heal that way wheres you could heal them in a couple days via bacta. The only instance in the old EU where we saw force healing being used on the same scale as Rey was Cade Skywalker in the Legacy comics and there the story went out of its way to explain why and how he could use such a OP ability. In short, he invented a whole new healing ability more akin to micro surgery than traditional Force Healing which simply encouraged your body to heal faster. With Rey however, it was made out to be normal Force Healing. Which begs the question why no other Jedi used this ability before?
@@nameynamename3758 if it was in the books she got in TLJ, Yoda would have known about it which means you'd think he would have taught it to the rest of the Jedi. Remember, TLJ shows that Yoda already read those books.
In star wars battlefront 2 (2005) there's a reference in the campaign to this. You have to destroy a transport ship before it warps through the fleet. Thought that was interesting when I replayed it recently.
Ironically, this explains why the tactic usually sucks - you're vulnerable to attack while prepping to jump. (This matters because hyperspace is curved and so you can't aim at something unless you hit them before you reach lightspeed - therefore you have to be pretty close to try and kamikaze jump them.)
pretty sure it was m8 at the time the game had a bunch of the voice actors from the original movies and everything. I agree though it's definitely a big plothole... just thought it was interesting is all.
For your first point, I think you vastly overestimate how much mass matters and underestimate what increasing speed does. Remember, KE only depends linearly on mass but quadratically on velocity, so doubling mass doubles destructive output but doubling speed quadruples it. That's not even taking relativity in to account, where you have a term 1/(speed stuff) that tends to infinity as you approach the speed of light, further increasing how much of a role speed plays. You even say yourself that most of the damage done was caused by the shrapnel. Does each fragment of shrapnel weigh as much as "absolutely the largest ship that the rebellion has ever had access to?" As much as one that's "considerably larger than most ships we've seen in Star Wars?" I highly doubt it. Sure the Raddus being big did help somewhat, but given that it absolutely tore through the main First Order ship like it was wet toilet paper, I am confident in saying a ship a hundredth the size (probably even smaller) would've sufficed. And yes, I do think that one large ship travelling at speeds would take out a Death Star or something of the like, but let's pretend I didn't. What's to stop the rebellion from equipping thousands of warp drives to empty kamikaze ships? Each one would still do huge damage, essentially the same as the big ship given that speed matters way more than just mass, but now you'd have access to the route of victory. You say that hyper drives are expensive, yet literally every X-Wing has one, not to mention the other classes of fighters. Instead, you should only make say 80% as many hyper drive equipped fighters (the 20% that gets cut was just fodder anyway) and stock up on the flagship annihilators. What do you mean why would the Empire build any of these when they already have superior firepower? They built a Death Star when they already had superior firepower. WMDs were Palpatine's whole MO.
Yes, because that’s not how hyperspace works. In the five part marvel Han Solo series, it’s explained that when you hyperspace you go through a wormhole thing so that you don’t crash into stuff.
Skywalking Studioz That’s what I always thought. Hyperspace lanes are used so you don’t crash into plants while in hyperspace (if I remember correctly).
@@ringking1036 my take would be that in hyperspace you're out of realspace but we know gravity wells can yank a ship out of hyperspace so the hyperspace lanes would be more concerned with any gravity source big enough to pull you out of hyperspace. A planet might be cause for a brown shorts moment in some quick maneuvering and deceleration but being yanked from hyperspace near a star,supernova or blackhole you're already cooked by the photosphere, hard radiation or so dangerously close to the event horizon that there's no escape.
@@garysprandel1817 Exactly, the hyperspace is an kind of another dimension in space (string theory confirmed in Star Wars :0), and with that, it makes sense why it goes doctor who with all those white and blue parts and then what Han said about making precise calculations to not fell into an planet or a supernova makes sense. What *doesn't* makes sense is all the new trilogy.
ah yes the character with a grand total of 5 lines in the films and a vaguely arabic sounding name have him do a suicide run thats totally going to go over well
You're ignoring that it can be used as a Hail Mary, a last ditch attempt, if you know you're done for. Also, if every ship could have done a hyper jump, why wouldn't you fire every ship but one at the enemy, if they are all dead?
If shrapnel from the Supremacy can be imparted with sufficient velocity from a hyperspeed collision then that opens another possibility since objects other than the one that has the hyperdrive can be accelerated by the object with the hyperdrive. If hyperdrives are expensive and can't be reused then any cost effective weapon would need to reuse them, a missile bus could be a cost effective option; the missile jettisons its payload while at hyperspeed at the target then zooms off to be recovered for subsequent use. We could go so far as to use a manned bomber for the same mission, pack the cargo bay of a ship with some kind of high density mass as a kinetic warhead then open the bay while you make the jump and kick the warheads clear with a payload assist rocket in to the path of the target.
The debris from the collision destroying all the other ships also probably directly contradicts the Deathstar going unscathed from the debris of Alderaan's destruction hitting it.
Freighters, Transports, Finn & Rey's ship, X-Wings, and TIE fighters, have hyperspace engines. Hyperspace engines are too common to be as expensive as this theory proposes. Besides, it's canon that Hyperspace engines have built in protections against this occurring. And basic writing says if you are going to change the rules, you need to hint that you are going to change the rules. This was poorly written and establishes (like many other parts of this terrible movie) that *anything* is possible at any time. There are no limits on what the writers can do. They can pull something out of their ass at any time. It's called Deus Ex Machina. It was bad writing when the Greek civilization was young. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina
Naw that breaks the lore. Now that theve done it, it just begs the question why not do it all the time.. in fact why bother with destroyers or death stars at all even.
BadOps504 this isn't the first time light speed has been used as a last ditch effort to destroy an imperial ship. In the 2005 Star Wars Battlefront there was a space battle where you had to destroy a rebel ship before it made the jump to hyperspace through a Star Destroyer
+BadOps504 The Japanese tried Kamikaze attacks, and they justified it using this exact same logic. One plane is far cheaper then an aircraft carrier or battleship, so just ram a few planes into your enemies ships and you've traded a few cheap planes for a few VERY expensive and difficult to build ships. On paper it sounds good, and you'd think you'd come out ahead by doing this. But it did not work out for the Japanese, and I suspect it would not have worked out for the rebellion for the same reasons.
I think you forget one thing… a Death Star has inside a reactor powerful and unstable enough to make it explode literally with a couple of torpedoes (twice). So a simple Cruiser rammed around the center mass of the Death Star has 100% of the chance (between its mass and shrapnels) to destroy a Death Star. And if you think that it would be expensive please run a calculation of how much it costed to the rebellion to take down Death Star 2 (both in people and ships)… a cruiser with a skeleton crew (maybe only composed of droids), would be a really cheap price to pay. Damn, if we consider that an asteroid made the dinosaurs extinct and we calculate the kinetic energy of a ship in hyperspace, it is guaranteed to knock down a planet too, even if doesn’t destroy it. The ability to take down any planet (including for example Coruscant) is a nightmare not only in the fight against the rebellion, every criminal and terrorist group large enough could bully any galactic superpower. So yes, the answer is that this solution breaks the canon making everything before stupid or irrelevant and was never proposed before for this exact reason. Obviously Disney was stupid enough to approve it.
Rian Johnson hasn't even to do a consistent movie, people (fanboys, as I was before) will (try to ) explain it later. If it isn't shit writing, I don't know what is.
The damage done to the genre by RJ has yet to fully play out. TLJ cured me of being a fan. I no longer feel any need to buy or watch anything Disney Wars. I've even started to no bother with MCU and other Disney universes. They touch something and it turns to garbage.
hate to be this guy but it would still be a plot hole, the problem is that this scene not about it cost of hyperdrives or wasteful tactics because you just answered you own question. the deathstar. if we think back to A new hope or Return of the Jedi, this tactic would of made a lot more sense. send on ship to ram the thing then *BAM!* either its destroyed or servery damaged and the rest of the fleet could mop it up. also there is the fact that from what we seen, even if it was a stroke of luck or a one in a million shot we saw a ship, although a large ship take out a even larger ship AND it fleet. It makes no logical sense that this tactic hasn't been used or tested given who old the star wars time line is. not to mention the lore breaking it does about its own laws on FTL, sure the ship goes to lightspeed before going into hyperspace but the process in instantaneous lore wise.
if you find anything big enough to destroy a death star, shut me up, but to make more than a tiny dent into that thing, you need something almost half of its size.
No, just need it to go do it right. First deathstar probably harder to destroy since it was complete but if even a peace of Hyper shrapnel got into the core than it be destroyed, not the best tactic and very likely to miss but could work, fighters would have better chances with torpedoes I'll give you that. the second on the other hand would be very possible, it was incomplete at the time with large parts of it missing, depending on the crafts size it could the equivalent of armor piecing bullet or a armor piecing shotgun shell since there was less to get through to the core. hell this tactic could of been used in the force awakens at Star killer, one X-wing activates its hyperdrive while aimed at the cooling station since it was a bigger target that a small vent, then the Star killer would of been destroyed without losing a squad.
No, just need it to go do it right. First deathstar probably harder to destroy since it was complete but if even a peace of Hyper shrapnel got into the core than it be destroyed, not the best tactic and very likely to miss but could work, fighters would have better chances with torpedoes I'll give you that. the second on the other hand would be very possible, it was incomplete at the time with large parts of it missing, depending on the crafts size it could the equivalent of armor piecing bullet or a armor piecing shotgun shell since there was less to get through to the core. hell this tactic could of been used in the force awakens at Star killer, one X-wing activates its hyperdrive while aimed at the cooling station since it was a bigger target that a small vent, then the Star killer would of been destroyed without losing a squad.
the dent will probably be surface level, if not entirely absorbed by shields, and even if not, however unlikely, it would take a gigantic amount of luck to get right. I'll just stay with my exaust ports if I may.
Nope, a rock the size of a beach ball travelling at light speed would pass straight through the death star, properly aimed it would take out the core with ease.
At 670,000,000 miles per hour, just about any object traveling at the speed of light with any measurable mass would cause total devastation to whatever it impacts.
So a point of lore that no one has brought up is a weapon from the Dark Empire era called the Hyperspace cannon, it is a gun that shoots a hyperspace capable missile through hyperspace to hit targets across the galaxy.
The Galaxy Gun's bullets only traveled through hyperspace, they dropped out to hit their targets. It was their payload which destroyed the planet. One bullet almost killed Han and Leia, but it failed to go off. It ended up unexploded and lodged in a ship's hull. Had it been traveling at lightspeed, it would have destroyed everything when it hit that ship. However there is an obscure bit of lore that does still support the Holdo Maneuver. Look up the "Destruction Pammant."
Ah yes, the super expensive, absolutely indispensable hyperdrive engine. So expensive and hard for the rebellion to acquire that they are installed on every single X-wing and Y-wing fighter. Of which they had a dozen or so. Yeah, great explanation there. Really makes sense with no gigantic holes in the logic anywhere.
Not only that but lets not forget interdictor ships. Which should of logically also been created much sooner to counter this. Like in legends where the tech is 4000 years old. rather then in current canon. Which then should be part of every single fleet, to stop this very thing from happening.
the resistance didn't steal their fighters they were bought/gifted to them by the incom corporation since the empire/first order didn't want them. Possibly because if you run a star destroyer that's basically a cruiser/carrier hybrid you don't need fighters with hyperdrives since you have mass deployment launch bays anyways. Now since hyperdrives are supposedly expensive why is it that aside from star destroyer based fighters EVERY SHIP IN STAR WARS has one?
X-wing is one of the most expensive fighters ever produced, and was considered the height of starfighter technological achievement when it was designed. the rebellion getting those fighters is likely the only thing that allowed the rebellion to achieve the things it did. the TIE fighter on the other hand was the opposite tactic, produce it cheaply and build tons of them. The X-wing was larger, faster, more agile, had more protection, carried more firepower, etc.... it was superior to everything else out there at the time, in nearly every conceivable way, except one: cost.
Here is some basic logic for you: 1 40 mile diameter rock travelling about 44,000 MPH + 1 Planet = 1 Mass extinction event. 1 40 mile diameter rock travelling about 90% of light speed + 1 Planet = 0 Planet Death Star? Who needs a sodding Death Star? Just outfit some big space rocks with class 20 hyperdrives and auto pilots. Cheaper than two Death Stars, that's for damn sure. Hell, you could use that tactic against the Death Star itself, 1 of those Hyper Space rocks and the Death Star is at the very least inoperable, especially if you hit the Super Weapon Dish. Also: "Hyper drives are expensive and high maintenance, that's why Tie's don't have them. So do you really think the Rebels are going to make Hyperspace Missiles?" No, but they sure as fuck have enough resources to strap Hyper Drives to all of their fighters and bombers...That then go on suicide missions...Rather than, you know, outfitting a few crappy Freighters to carry the fighters/bombers into battle, only to then Jump back out immediately to maybe not get destroyed? Since Hyper Drives are so expensive and all...? "What about the Republic? Or the Empire? They already have superior firepower! Why would they bother with Hyper Ramming?" The CIS, forgot about them? How they Jumped a whole invasion fleet right to Coruscant through that hidden Hyper Space route? What exactly was stopping them(Besides Sidious) from stripping a few dozen Munificent's to bare bones and having a skeleton crew of cheap B1's hyper ram into Coruscant? They couldn't be stopped from Jumping, and if they did Jump the whole Planet is a city so no matter where they hit, million or even billions are now dead, per ship. That's the end of the war right there.
The problem with that logic is that hyperspace travel is not the same as impulse travel. The object isn't necessarily "moving" at all, the hyperdrive is warping the space around it. The destructive force of the hyperdrive would be in how much the hyperdrive can tear the target apart before it is destroyed. It might be that a starfighter's warp drive isn't even strong enough to penetrate the solid surface of a target.
The reason Sidious didn't HS ram Coruscant is because he wanted that to be his new seat of power. A ship travelling at or very near the speed of light has an insane amount of energy even a penny accelerated to those speeds would have drastic consequences for anything in its path.
1. Ok, so you are saying that throwing a hyperspace missile into the deathstar will do nothing, and give the example of how the Radis only simply disabled the Supremacy, so due to scales of size, this won't be effective. However, why not throw a hyperspace missile at the Death Star's super beam dish? The holes where beams come from seem like prime targets for something like this, and the amount of damage that can be caused to such delicate machinery must be immense. 2. You say that doing hyperspace kamikaze attacks to cruisers is a waste of starfighters and pilots because they are better alive than dead, and improve tactics are acceptable. I disagree, using common sense, you are guaranteed to lose many, many, starfighters to take down a cruiser, so sacrificing 1 to destroy a cruiser seems very efficient. Before you talk about scale these proportions seem plausible, and again, if it doesn't utterly destroy the cruiser, it will at least be disabled. 3. Hyperdrives aren't THAT expensive, x wings or y wings or even crappy separatist shuttles are hyperspace capable. They were expensive for the gang in episode one because they were stuck with very little money trying to buy an engine on a planet with very little supply of it available (thus high prices, economics 101). If lets say 20 fighters will bight the dust from one attack on a cruiser, 3/4 hyperkazi on a cruiser (assuming thats what it takes to destroy one) seems very efficient. Here is a plausible example, Republic Venators are ~50% smaller than an ISD (less volume to go through), and Separatist shuttles, like the one that carried Grievous to Utapau, (they are also super cheap by the look of them, and a bit bigger than an x wing) can probably do a lot of damage with a hyperkazi. Another realization I had just now is that the pilots of these shuttles were droids, very cheap, expendable droids. Even if you think the rebels couldn't afford to hyperkazi into cruisers, the CIS could have easily used this tactic against the Republic (now just remembered you didn't even talk about the Separatists in the video). You say this type of attack is rare, however the Separatists disposition would have made them do these types of attacks all the time! By going by your logic with the collateral damage argument, Palpatine's plan with the Clone Wars was to get the people mad about war and blame the Jedi for it, while elevating his own power at their expense. Why not in some Clone War space battle order an admiral to launch a Republic cruiser into hyperspace at a Separatist frigate, and direct the shrapnel at the planet's surface to get the people to really hate the war? Why not do something like that at Courascant? He could even ask Count Dooku to do it on a Republic fleet as well! As for the things I do agree with in the video, the idea of a cloud of hyperspace debree seems intriguing, and actually makes sense, and your analysis of the Hammerhead corvet's attack is also sound. I also agree the Republic and Empire strategically wouldn't have wanted to do something like this, however, politically, they could create something interesting... However, even if you find problems with my arguments, there have been many space battles in Star Wars, from the movies to the TV shows, and only now in TLJ do we see that this maneuver is feasible. I can think of many moments from the Battle of Courascant, to the Battle of Endor, to even some space battles from TCW where hyperkazi can happen.
And on top of that, a hyperspace ram against the death star doesn't need to be so big that it'd destroy it like Snoke's ship. It only has to be strong enough to hit the core, and then the core blowing up takes care of the rest.
I mean the whole reason the Imperial Japanese resorted to kamikaze tactics was that the quality of their pilots was so low and the Americans so high that it was literally more efficient to attempt to suicide planes into ships than attempt to attack them conventionally. Why wouldn't the Rebellion come to a similar conclusion?
They were a last resort, but Japanese high command realized that kamikaze attacks were more likely to inflict damage on the US Navy than conventional bombing and torpedo attacks. Hence pilots were typically volunteers who thought they could do more against their enemy by a deliberate suicide attack rather than attempt a bombing run. With the force equalizer of hyperspace ramming, the question still remains why this wouldn't be a valid tactic in earlier instances.
And to be honest, I no longer care if someone does come up with an answer. The problem remains that TLJ came out without the answer. That's bad screenwriting. I'm shouldn't have to watch Rebels, or play Battlefront, or read any of the new books to find the answer. If a glaring plothole like this is in a movie, that's the fault of the movie.
Hilbert that's flawed logic if you only have 50 people left, and they'll all die trying to kill an enemy ship, why wouldn't you send 4-5 of them to kill an enemy ship and then still have 45 people left? Also Japan inflicted more damage with Kamakazi attacks then they did with conventional torpedo/bomber attacks over the course of the entire war
one thing it seems most people forget about hyperspeed travel is that it needs certain preparations. several times before we saw situations where the characters cant just teleport exactly where they want and from wherever they want because the conditions arent ideal. not only it takes time to charge but you also need to accelerate to very high speeds, over a certain distance, before going into hyperspace. what was shown in the last jedi was that the first order was able to detect immediately that the hyperspace drive was activated and had ample time to react while it charged, instead being blinded by confusion. they couldve very well shot the vessel before it jumped, as we've seen before when people try to flee using hyperspeed. in the same vein, before entering hyperspace the ship needs to accelerate through normal space, so it needs sort of a 'runway' to accelerate/decelerate safely before/after jumping, reason why ships dont just hyperjump past shields and into planet's atmospheres. what happened there was just the exact situation of 1) the vessel being close enough to accelerate into other vessels (they were in the runway) before the jump then hitting them at a fraction of the speed of light, 2) while having the benefit of the doubt from the target that underestimated them and let them charge, instead of immediately interrupting it by firing on them or sending smaller vessels to take it down, 3) coupled with the fact they had no choice but to waste such a big ship, bigger than a star destroyer, only reason it actually amounted to significant damage and lastly 4) without cannons or smaller vessels of any kind to defend themselves, making this their only option. like, how often do you happen to be in this exact situation? its not a cheat OP strat, its a opportunistic manouver that would never work in any reasonable scenario but happened to be the only option there. I dont believe all of this was tought out for the movie but it still makes perfect sense within canon for how these things work. people just are willing to be dumb in order to have excuses to criticize shit they dislike
'Hyperdrives aren't some cheap expendable technology'
*Rebel fighters (with hyperdrives) dying by the dozens trying to take out one star destroyer*
Did you ever hear about the lack of point defence systems on Star Destroyer?
Those hyperdrives were probably not nearly as expensive given the much smaller scale. Scaling it up to a massive carrier ship scale might require exponentially more resources and power.
@@adrianaslund8605 it doesnt need to be the size of a massive cruiser, we're talking about a collision at near-lightspeed _at the lowest_ , if not a superluminal collision (depending on whether the collision occurs in hyperspace or just in the acceleration towards hyperspace). The energy released by such an impact would be literally stellar in scale.
@@Magmafrost13 But only if you're far enough away to gain the necessary speed, but close enough not to disappear into hyperspace.
The rebels did not know these parameters, nor if it was really possible.
And Holdo didn't know it either, but she tried anyway. Maybe she's heard of some legends about ships crashing at the speed of light, and she's been trying to replicate them as a last resort to save her friends.
And was lucky enough to be successful.
This is my version of the story.
@@nickilraptor19_66😂🤡
"money isn't infinite in star wars" tell that to first order.
The First Order utilized resources left by the Empire in the Unknown Regions, such as shipyards and of course ships and weapons brought by the Imperial remnant which fled to that space.
Empire was hated by the galaxy that is the reason why they needed death star to maintain control over it. After second one destroyed and all of it top officers it was very clearly declared that empire lost the war. Not once in any star wars movie, had been mentioned that Empire remnants did what you just wrote.
inkilass It was told in the novels & the visual dictionary iirc. The First Order also had 30 years to prepare.
ok the empire ruled only two-thrids of the galaxy that is canon, the emperor was interested in the unknown regions, where the Chiss and older civ including the parts of the old sith empire so the emperor was interested.
Holtsar Star wars is the movies first and if it is not in the movie then it doesn't exist.
"The rebellion wouldnt risk losing 1 fighter to take down a star destroyer" yet they sacrifice an entire bomber fleet to destory 1
That was on command of Poe Dameron.
To be honest, the fact that those flimsy bombers took out ANYTHING besides themselves is probably their greatest accomplishment.
Reishadowen I dont understand why they dont just shoot out the bombs horizontally than "dropping" them, the whole concept of a bomber in space is stupid
Poe Dameron did that, and he got demoted for it. Because it was stupid.
The Sunless you're absolutely right. Very stupid of Poe to take out that dreadnaught. I mean, how much better for the resistance would it have been had that dreadnaught been involved in that space chase. Tons better, right?
Essentially, this tactic is too good to have never been used before. Even just taking thrusters and flinging a rock at Orbital velocities could do some damage to an unshielded ship. Before this maneuver was done, fans could just assume that there was a reason that this tactic wasn't done, but now, there isn't a reason. If it was a 1 in a million, then it would have been more effective to have done so many other strategies.
Also, if it were 1 in a million they'd just use crappier hyperdrives and shoot a million hyperspace missiles at the enemy
@@rhorynotmylastname7781 Yeah i bet there are hyperdrives out there barely funktioning, dont need to be stabel.
dont tell there are no russians like peapol in star wars.
Like yeah nuclear plane works if you remove lead shielding
star wars
Love that one in a million. Makes it seem like Holdo was trying to escape, but failed spectacularly.
@@bigchunga4982 headcannon
the "one in a million" line was said by a janitor in a room full of pilots and navigators, claiming how a move that literally happened again on the very next movie is supposed to be a rare sight. Incidentally he didn't even know how to fly a ship, as it was an established plot point of the previous movie how Finn needed Poe to escape. He also didn't know his own army had jetpacks, even though they had seen widespread usage during the clone war and galactic civil war eras.
So I really don't get why people should take "one in a million chance" as anything more than a wild guess at best, if it even should be considered at all.
Dumbest shit ever most people can't make shit up that incongruent even if they tried. Sequels apologists are on full cognitive dissonance
Step 1: Find an asteroid of sufficient mass
Step 2: Attach Hyper-Drive
Step 3: ?
Step 4: Profit
Stole my comment...
In... a more eloquent way...
No shit, my very first thought.
or even manufacture one solid tungsten rod, somewhere in 50-500 ton range. propel it FTL speeds to anything, it will destroy te target completely, even large solid planets. In SW the logistics and resources allows it to be done. This is what i hate in SW. they have means to do anything, but they don't use it.
@@SergeyPRKL absolutely! Christ with their level of tech all organics should be living cushy lives of luxury!
Stratowind they enemy probably wouldn’t be able to stop it on account of how fast it’s moving
*1. Hyperdrives are neither rare nor crazy expensive, and ships are neither rare nor crazy expensive.* The Episode 1 scene you reference was Qui-Gon looking for a very particular type of hyperdrive for a very specific ship: the royal cruiser. The rebels install them on fighters and lose those fighters on a fairly regular basis. The "Hyperdrives are precious" argument is therefore invalid.
*2. The disproportionate power of this tactic shown in the movie would be highly effective on the death star.* You see no sign of the hyperparticles' destructive penetration attenuating along the length of any of the ships affected, and the Death Star dwarfs all of them, so the deeper you go, the more widespread the damage. If anything vital or prone to exploding (like the main reactor) got hit, it's game over. The "Wouldn't do anything to the Death Star" argument is therefore invalid.
*3. A fully functional ship isn't required for this tactic.* A hyperdrive and a big rock would do the job. The "Ships are too precious" argument is therefore invalid.
*4. The "polluting space" argument falls apart when you consider that hyperspace has previously been done from and into planetary atmospheres and directly out of another ship's hanger in the movies.* That, and the Episode IV explanation of how it isn't like "dusting crops" suggests that hyperspace accidents can and do happen, and the lack of planets pasted from hyperspace accidents suggests that *this entire plot point was, and remains, a visually beautiful but stupid twist in a movie full of them.*
Beautiful.
What you just said is INTELLIGENT it is ARTICULATE and it is LOGICAL.
And how expensive can hyperdrives be when you can find such a specific type of hyperdrive laying around in a junkyard on a backwater planet?
Not only that, the hyperdrive in PM would have cost up to 20,000 credits (highly specialized and expensive) and even if it was the type in all ships, (it wasn't) it would still only be 13% of the total cost of an x-wing. (150,000 credits)
Yep. And this was just refuting the video's points. There are so many other problems with this scene. If hyper-ramming works, why did they just let their escort ships die for no purpose? Why wait until most of the resistance shuttles were destroyed before doing it? Why have a human do it when a droid could have done it just as well without losing someone important (not that I mind that Holdo won't ever be in another Star Wars movie)?
Then there's "The Plan" that somehow Holdo and Leia had the whole time. Why make this plan at all? Why hyperspace into deep space (that somehow has a habitable planet nearby, making it *not* deep space) when you're almost out of fuel? Why have only two people know the plan?
I could go on, but I'm just starting to rant. It's 2 and a half months since I watched it, and this movie still makes me angry.
ok, so let's do some thinking. On the battle of Coruscant, there were over 1000 separatist destroyers, each with a class 1 hyperdrive. each of those ships was 1/3 the size of the Raddus and could do plenty of damage. We see these ships go down regularly, the separatists are killing republic ships at a very bad ratio and it is obvious all their ships will end up destroyed. Why not do some hyperspace ramming then? The grand army of the republic had it's main military base in coruscant, along with the senate and jedi temple. Everything you have said backs this up, the separatists were not in any way short on hyperdrives and these ships would go down either way. The ships were large, they would do quite a bit of damage, breaking through many layers of coruscant and causing countless deaths and fires. These are the sort of plot holes left unanswered, and no matter how many unrealistic excuses you come up with they still break the star wars universe.
Edit:
Also, space terrorism would be a huge problem.
Well Palpatine was the leader of separatists and he didn’t want his main planet getting destroyed.
Trully broken but awesome scene
The sequels are legends. Nothing more, nothing less. Explains everything and leaves no holes. Just disney is too proud of their pile of shit to admit it
@@jhonnythejeccer6022 “you are strong and wise and i am very proud of you” obi wan-
Hi Anakin Skywalker. If ramming was possible they would not use ships to ram into ships, they would use missiles. If something changes the lore, it breaks the lore. They did not use ramming because ramming doesn't work in Starwars lore.
if the SHRAPNEL from a hyperdrive ram could split a star destroyer in two, this does essentially invalidate every superweapon in star wars. it's even more powerful than the ridiculous xyston star destroyers in episode 9 because it essentially has infinite range. A large hyperdrive ram into the death star or starkiller base or any planet would likely damage it beyond repair no matter where it hit, and you can't shoot down a ship going faster than light. When even a small hyperdrive-capable ship has momentum comparable to the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs it makes you wonder, why would the empire even build a death star with its unimaginable maintenance costs?
Simple. No-one had though of this for Star Wars that much as it would invalidate every bit of it. Movies do not need to exist, books, games, it's completely worthless. The stories aren't needed, don't need to happen. If there is a problem, hyperspace-ram it. CIS rise? Hyperspace ram all their planets.
Trade Federation blockades Naboo? Ram an N-1 Starfighter into each Lucrehulk class freighter/battleship, or just the Droid Control ship.
CIS wanna win the war? Hyperspace ram Kamino, Coruscant, and a few more planets. Empire wants to end the rebellion? Start ramming random planets until they declare their surrender.
Leia or Luke are discovered? Ram whatever they're standing on. Ram everything. Ram the black hole holding the galaxy together.
That's how many think. The reason for ANYTHING HAPPENING IN STAR WARS becomes completely meaningless and unneeded. Why bother with having any story or saga at all if you can just ram it into oblivion the first chance you get.
THERE, YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION. If George had this in mind when he made Episode 4, it would've ended over an hour earlier, and Episode 5 would be the rebellion hyperspace-ramming every planet controlled by the Empire, if we assume there's no care given to how many quintillions of lives will be ended with this method.
Simple. This is a space opera, and unlike Star Trek - the weapons are all plot devices, and not based more than loosely on any known technology. What stops the end of the light saber, it should be a death flash light. Just buy some popcorn and forget physics.
@@ScottAdair lore… lore stops the lightsaber. But lore had solid rules that made sense. This doesn’t
@@juniorqindes8335 and do you want to list those rules or just say "the lore makes it good actually"
@@BeatAces which one? The stop lightsaber thing is well established because not only does it always stop but you need a whole other device to make it keep going and also that device breaks it when used… I think it was 5 times.
"in star wars there is no infinite money..."
The empire in the nex movie: we build a death star that can contain an entire solar system to fuel it lazer beam that can destroy 30 planets at the time, and it can travel 4 bizillon times the speed of light.
10000 Death Star star destroyers suddenly appear
are you having a stroke
Because not only did Empire not exist and didn’t want a 100% guaranteed destruction of anything really, capital ships one shots included, Republic also didn’t want a single shot kill of capital ships for half a cost of a singular fighter with a hyperspace engine
How many is a brazillian
"The energy in a Star is enough to destroy ten-thousand planets, not just a few here & there.
"
-Neil dG. T.
Yeah, you missed the fact that by NOT using this kind of tactic to engage targets like the Death Star or the fleet at Scarif the rebellion actually looses FAR more ships than it would have by sacrificing a single ship. The cost of losing those ships and their experienced crew is immeasurably more than the cost of losing a single transport that had been dedicated to the role of hyperspace ram ship. There's just no way you can make the argument that sacrificing a single ship is somehow more expensive than engaging targets with an entire fleet.
From a cost versus benefit point of view, you are absolutely right, Kevin.
You don't need a ship. Any asteroid, even just weighing 2-3 tons, with a power source, some thrusters, and a hyperdrive engine, with an astromech to pilot it, would be enough. Two tons accelerated to .9999 C is effectively infinite in energy, it would create the raddus sized plot hole in any object it would be aimed at.
@@nuclearsimian3281 ramming doenst work like that, its said that the chance of success is 1 on 1 million
@@nuclearsimian3281 and just attatch a droid ai to it and voila, autonomous super missile
No he didn't miss it. He's just purposely arguing the single point of view.
Uh, dude, if you accelerate _anything_ with mass to light speed, no matter how small it is, it's going to have infinite kinetic energy (which is why it's impossible in real life but is evidently possible in the Star Wars universe). A one gram projectile traveling at light speed could easily cleave straight through a planet, or kill everything on its surface. You could put a hyperdrive on a missile the size of a X-wing (or even smaller) and ram it into the Death Star, and the kinetic energy alone would destroy it. No shield, no matter how strong, would be able to stop it because it would be going up against _infinite_ energy.
"Hyperdrives aren't some cheap, expendable technology." And yet, every X-wing has one. If you're willing to risk several hyperdrive-equiped X-wings in battle to destroy _one_ star destroyer, or a Death Star, you should be willing to spend a hyperdrive missile if it means taking out a powerful enemy ship which could potentially destroy several of yours, or even an entire planet. It should be obvious which option carries the greater potential cost.
Yeah well then explain the mass of a pothon and why arent we dying just taking light, if you say mass at speed of light have infitine energy you are just breaking a couple of quantum laws
+
manuel Naranjo Jimenez
Photons have zero rest mass. So zero times infinity is... oh, my calculator broke.
Which quantum laws, specifically, do you think are being broken here? I'd like some detail, because if you have a poor understanding of special relativity then I doubt you could have a strong understanding of quantum mechanics (especially seeing as special relativity and quantum mechanics are compatible, and the reason we have anti-particles).
Dr Shaym, obviously hyperdrives work differently to our real world physics. It doesn't take infinite energy to get to lightspeed in Star Wars, so you're not going to get infinite energy out.
This is obvious. I couldn't find a mass for the Raddus, but just the mass of its crew alone (1,000 people at 80 kg each) travelling at a mere 90% the speed of light would have 9.3e21 J of energy. That's 20,000 Tsar Bomba, which itself had a fireball radius of over 6 km! Assuming the fireball radius scales as the cube root of the yield, did you see the Raddus cause a fireball with a diameter of over 300 km? That's Over 5 of Snoke's ships in width, doesn't even count the dry weight of the Raddus and assumes a modest value for "lightspeed".
Obviously using hyperdrives as weapons doesn't scale well, compared to the kind of ordinance a fleet typically carries. It was quite effective here, but it was clearly a move borne of desperation.
Dr Shaym exactly. This video and the movie are stupid af.
Michael Ferguson you win!
>No shield, no matter how strong, would be able to stop it because it would be going up against infinite energy.
It's much worse than that. Infinite energy divided by finite numbers is infinite. The target would expand in a cloud of shrapnel in which every atom had infinite energy, and anything that atom touched would explode with infinite energy, etc... A ball of destruction would annihilate the universe.
But, according to those same laws of physics, hyperdrives are impossible anyway, so we should assume that physics in the star wars universe is just different.
Just one kill?
Gimli looking at an exploding Death Star: “It still only counts as one!”
She is travelling at 7000000c (according to other video) and you say that you require a large mass for ramming? An ant accelerated to this speed is an ant with infinte kinetic energy.
Since when was Star Wars scientifically accurate? Travelling in hyperspeed is already imposible so perhaps in Star Wars universe you need a big ship to destroy something by ramming it in hyperspeed
@@hugothedog5258 - You should probably look up "suspension of disbelief."
Obviously yes. As we see the effect of a large mass ramming... if the effect was larger then we would have seen a larger effect...
@@hugothedog5258 since you defended the movie with science...... the point is, all the fans have is canon and you guys are trying to sound smart by using big words in a fictional universe but the flaw in your argument is why hasnt this been done canonically before in this universe. surely this was thought of before for this universe has had numerous space battles all through its galactic development. even larry niven has written this very method decades before this movie (see Kzinti lesson which was where this idea is point on point) and you guys call this as a holdo maneuver like shes the first person to have thought of this?
@@dalemoses2443 obviously you dont know the energy potential of an object travelling at the speed of C. try playing with universe sandbox and accelerate the tesla car to light speed and ram it at earth. that tiny mass will obliterate the planet like alderaan which brings the argument that if that is the case, whats the purpose of the deathstar if you can simply ram a meteor with lightspeed drives and send it to planets and obliterate them right?
So you can A, build a giant ship that needs thousands of crewmen to operate, needs many guns, munitions, shielding, power generators, a giant hyperdrive.
That ship then might or might not destroy/damage enemy warship, while it risks being destroyed with all that expensive things on board.
Or you, B, create a much smaller ship, using less material, smaller thus cheaper hyperdrive, no need for shields or turbolasers, or humongous power generators. You only need one or two crewmen, they can be droids.
This ship then, using hyperspace ramming, certainly destroys the enemy warship.
Which sounds more effective for waging war to you?
"no need for shields"
Oh yeah, because the Imperial ship that the hyperspace missile is clearly targeting will definitely just sit there and do nothing. And of course, one Interdictor would nullify the entire arsenal, which would make them 100% useless. So, good idea.
'certainly destroys the enemy warship' watch the scene again. Someone tells Hux immediately before the ship jumps that she is activating her hyperdrive. Hux dismisses it without even looking over and continues to get his rocks off on the last of the resistance being blown to pieces. Not only that but the big ship she shot at didn't even suffer that much damage. it could almost certainly be repaired from that state. The cloud of debris that she created was the only reason it was so effective. Not only that but the ship she used was massive compared to your hypothetical ship that is probably going to get shot to pieces as soon as someone realizes that it doesn't have shields. Not to mention that it probably needs those humongous generators to actually power the hyper drive. So No. I don't think its cut and dry.
Stephen Jenkins Those ships would only have to turn a degree maybe and the asteroid targeting them would have to completely restart its calculations.
Stephen Jenkins Well, we see in the Last Jedi that the Star Destroyers can travel through a solar system in less than a day. That would put their speed somewhere in the millions of kilometers per hour range. And sadly, going to hyperspace is not as simple as 'just pushing the lever', as Han tells Luke, it requires performing advanced calculations and powering up the hyperdrive first. You could pre-prepare these calculations, like Chewie did when he dropped off Rey in TLJ, but it would be impossible to do that for a moving target.
" but have you seen how slow capital ships like ISDs are?" Try watching Empire Strikes Back, to see what happens when an unshielded asteroid enters the firing range of an Imperial Star Destroyer. A single shot from a Star Destroyer's turbo-lasers instantly disintegrated an asteroid on contact. It's a trick that would work, at best, exactly once, and only if the captain of the ship was an idiot, who didn't consider the fact the Rebels were trying to maneuver an asteroid towards their ship somewhat suspicious. After that one time it (maybe) worked, any other time they tried it, the asteroids would just be blown to bits before they could set it up again.
This strategy literally ONLY worked in TLJ because Hux had all but written off the Raddus and didn't redirect his fire at the Raddus when he had the chance. Had Hux wanted to destroy the Raddus before it jumped to Hyperspace, he could have, he was just too focused on destroying the rest of the Resistance, and figured that a skeleton crew was of significantly lower priority.
When traveling at the speed of light, mass doesnt matter. A needle traveling at the speed of light can in theory destroy a planet the size of earth. As you approach the speed of light, mass matters less due to how massive the velocity is.
Atarwara dosent have light speed, its impossible in the lore. Hyperspace hopping out of real space into hyperspace wich allows you to travel greater distances in less distance. Like running through the neither in minecraft
@@ShaddySoldier but to get into hyperspace, you must first approach the speed of light. This is why you see the stars stretch right before the ship enters hyperspace. Theres a brief moment where your ship is going almost as fast as the speed of light.
@@ShaddySoldier they call it light speed multiple times in the last jedi
@@joshuarubenstein2298 then why not weaponise it?
@@ВиталяКекс-ц6е dont ask me. Ask the writers
Yeah, I don’t see how this doesn’t break lore. You wouldn’t have to make an entire ship. A super heavy missile just with guidance and a hyperdrive wouldn’t be all that cost prohibitive as the rebel alliance fighters all have hyperdrives.
Yeah exactly, every X-Wing already has an hyperdrive, imagine if instead of losing 3-4 Wings to kill a Destroyer you could just send a cheaper, stripped out version of one and instakill it
But massively producing inhert projectiles with hyperdrives would be a real dead cost, hyperdrive fighters at least are "manned", multirole... so I understand the choice
@@piazzollalucagordon4149
The cost would be tiny in comparison to what the currently do, that’s only counting materials, not to mention the lives of their pilots
@@tulkdog I'm talking just about materials actually, what I meant is that a warhead is much more "situational" and thus is a cost to be reckoned with, against spending those resources in multirole crafts that sooner or later will always be used more often. I didn't take account for human lives just because they WANT to risk to die, I am no immoral :D But I realize that's a big cost too when downsized to just "resources"
@@tulkdog I can agree at only one condition: no superheavy missile, with lightspeed involved you can just throw the HS core itself :D Then the costs may also be risible
The problem is the hyperspace ram outright conflicts with what we've seen hyperspace do onscreen in the last several movies.
In TFA, Han hyperspaces through a planetary shield to avoid it. If we apply the Holdo Maneuver logic to it, the Falcon would have splat on the shield and tear gouges through Starkiller Base with the particle spray.
In Rogue One, we see the Rebel Fleet hyperspacing away from Scarif, and through the Devastator as it drops out of hyperspace in front of them; the only ship to ram into it is a GR-75 transport still in realspace.
Going even further back, in A New Hope, the Falcon drops out of hyperspace into the debris field that used to be Alderaan. The ship is not affected by the debris until it drops into realspace.
The Devastator and The Debris don't have any presence in HyperSpace as they aren't massive enough. Certain Objects with certain scale or gravity have shadows in the realm of hyperspace and that's what you can hit if you turn off all your ship safeties. That's also how Interdiction Cruisers work, they create a massive gravity well to drag Rebel Ships into real space because its logical to assume they would leave their Safeties on.
As for the The Shield in TFA, Han mentions that the shield is on a fractional refresh rate that would catch anything moving slower than Lightspeed. In that Scene Finn even acts like they are gonna just splat into the shield but instead the falcon got passed the shield because they were moving faster than the could refresh.
And besides there were a million other factors effecting Holdo's jump that probably aren't repeatable, but the Force Was With Them and it happened to hit that Destructive GoldieLocks zone.
@@CynUnion-ji9uj Its also worth mentioning that hitting something after coming out of hyperspace is a very different scenario then hitting something at the apex of your pre-hyperspace acceleration.
The best explanation is that the ship is since this ship is capable of hyperspace, it is present in both real space and hyperspace. Holdo noticed this and realized she could pull it off. It works because it is the first time we see a ship with hyperspace tracking capability and also the first time someone used light speed as a military tactic. They compliment each other.
well if hyperspace is like a parralell dimension then the ship hit upon entering that dimension with a very good percentage of c ...
But in that movie Han literally says that hyperspace isn’t easy as they could easily land in a supernova or star. If hyperspace isn’t affected by things in real space then why would that even be a risk?
"It doesn't even make sense because there are safeties in place to prevent that!"
Step 1: Turn safeties off. Step 2: Hyperspace ram. Additionally, those safeties were invented as a gameplay mechanic for the X-wing and TIE Fighter games to prevent players from dying after completing a mission because they booped a something (as far as I know). And no matter the origin,those safeties aren't mentioned in any of the movies - In A New Hope, Han states explicitly that jumping without precise calculations could result in collision - or death in any case - and in The Force Awakens, said non-existent safeties would have prevented the Falcon from traveling along a path with Starkiller Base in its way. He took the Falcon out of hyperspace manually; the Falcon didn't exit when the computer detected something in the way.
Yeah, this idea bleeds from a thousand wounds, but hyperspace failsafes are not one of them.
@@1234kalmar I disagree that there are many flaws with this concept. Travelling at light speed means you'd have infinite mass, so you'd either tear through another ship like it was tin foil or at the very least the atoms would fuse toghether to make new ones, and the heat generated would quickly end what remained of both starships.
Canonically, there is literally no issue with the idea of using a hyperdrive as a weapon. I think the real issues are threefold.
1. Why? No really. Why sacrifice the crew of the ship, along with the entire ship itself, on a single one-hit wonder? Logically this is a last resort, not your first port of call for destroying the enemy.
2. Accuracy. As noted by our favourite smuggler, without precise calcuations Hyperspace jumps can go wildly off-course. Trying to hit anything less than a big target with something of equally reasonable size would be like trying to thread a needle blindfolded.
3. Conventional tactics work just fine in most cases. The Empire developed superweapons to destroy entire planets in seconds, negating the need to use anything as unreliable as a hyperdrive weapon, and the Rebels have enough tools at their disposal not to rely on it.
There is literally no in-canon reason why it wouldn't work, despite countless attempts to discredit it. People were just upset about Episode 8, rightly so, and felt the need to nitpick even further. I've said it before, I'll say it again. No one hates Star Wars like a Star Wars fan.
@@Crystan I'm going to say this to why sacrifice a whole crew point. USE DROIDS. Its proven that you can have a r2 unit fly ships so why not have one fly a ship with hyper space capacity into the object. Then there's no chance for human error or needing to find suicidal people. To the size difference why not go for the death star its said to be the size of a small moon.
Disney had to make so many retcons as to why this is the first time because it opened up so many plot holes. They should've just had the ship do a massive explosion.
@@jacksonashby7819 Exactly, and it doesn't even have to be droids. Just add some kind of basic navigation device on them. It's basically a guided missile with a hyperdrive attached to it.
I don't have any problem with this besides: "Why didn't anybody else think of this idea until now?"
I find it highly unlikely Holdo would've been the first to weaponize this technology. Why suddenly now and not in the past?
@@Crystan last resort you say? IF those rebels are all willing to die for their cause then why not kamikaze into a ISD with a modified or beefed up cruiser (corellian corvette)(the hammerhead scene would be rare the ISDs were WAY to close and . You practically destroy an expensiv ship with one thats a fraction of the cost, or you could use droids that can and will do the job. IF i was a generall in SW i would never get anything bigger then a corellian corvette (or equally big ships) there is no use for them. Get a huge fleet of fighters good ones like the V-wing and X-wing, some good bombers like the B wing and some cruisers that are just for antifighter duty or ship-ramming.
This would be the ''real'' way to fight space battles in SW but since that wouldnt be great for movies they dont do them. The tactics would be established very fast after they realize they can do this. EXCEPT if the enemy has interdictor ships which can pull you out or even just stop you from using the hyperdrive, but even then huge ships are big targets for small bombers and would actually be specialized for anti fighter battles (no huge octupel barbettes but a big collection of small and fast firing AA guns)
AND if they would all have interdictors even then they would not have thousands of ISD because it would count as a to specialised ship that can get destroyed in a massed fighter attack, they would probably have a venator style carrier that can destroy cruisers but still have decent amount of fighters (and dont forget interdictors are ''new'' and they would be the nr1 priority for the bombers).
btw about reliability, if that tactic was used more often hyperdrive ramming would be ''perfected'' with time and if that doesnt work throw another ship at it, these capital ships cost at least twice as much as a cruiser.
It was a great scene but man I had no emotional bounding to Holdos sacrifice because I didnt cared about her character at all.
And there you strike on what the heart of the problems with the Last Jedi. It's a complete mess both in tonally and emotionally. It was sort of entertaining seeing the movie completely sabotaging itself from the very first dialog scene (the telephone joke with Hux) all the way to the end. But it completely deflated any enthusiasm I would have had for the next movie.
Anthony ofWindsor let me guess, you want Akbar to do the sacrifice?
The Firery Stool that's not even the issue... they just threw away developed people with no response who where legends even in their universe yet want you to feel for a flat character
SuperGamefreak18 I see....
The Firery Stool Yes. He would have had a great exit and made far more sense than someone who comes out of nowhere, given no character development, and causes most of the problems of the movie by not sharing information or even hope with her crew.
You say it wouldn’t be effective against the Death Star, but we’ve now established that the force field could be surpassed using hyper drives, and what do you think is going to happen on collision? A cloud of hyper speed shrapnel would’ve torn the inside to pieces, at the very least, disabling massive portions of the station, or at best, causing a cascading explosion which destroys the whole thing, just grab some old and outdated ships to use as suicide craft, except the hyper speed can be automated, or at worst, you’d need an astromech to do it, it’s a dumb maneuver from an awful movie
i wouldnt say dumb, it just came out of nowhere and broke all tactics that were already used or that are proven, its like looking at every bigger ship and calling it a waste.
if it had a realy big risk like creating blackholes THAT would be a good point on why they never used those tactics en mass before.
@@fesaldeari2717 if you look at the maneuver on its own without any context, it’s fine, but in the context of the biggest movie franchise ever, it doesn’t fit and it’s existence is dumb
@@fesaldeari2717 the thing is, what's happening is basically a nuclear reaction (probably fusion) because the atoms of the Supremacy can't move out of the way fast enough, so their nuclei get fused together, or break apart. And since the Raddus was moving at light speed, nearly the entire thing would have fused, or at least fissured, creating effectively a mile long nuclear bomb. Meanwhile say an X-wing went that quickly, it would be roughly the same as the Tsar Bomb, which would not have effected the Death Star in any meaningful way. I mean, it would have made a new crater, but it wouldn't even come close to destroying the reactor.
@@gonkdroid4prez539 well yes then again a corvette or a cruiser would suffice, or instead of making a deathstar a big asteroid would be enough just stick a hyperdrive on it and bam.
All bigger ships would be absolutely unnecessary except for transporting big armies etc.
Canadian gopnik, we don’t know how useful it would be on a small scale ship, because the ship that did it is HUGE, and sure it did a TON of crowd control, but the main target is STILL not destroyed, just harshly damaged. So a hyper speed x-wing to the death star probably wouldn’t do a ton.
Also sure bad movie, but I think it’s a REALLY cool scene, even if it is dumb
"Are there other scenarios I didn't consider"
All of the prequels
ALL OF THEM.
If you're going to be using the prequels to establish a cost for hyperspace drives(their cost is never stated in the OT) then you have to acknowledge they exist.
The CIS is using an almost all-droid army and their space navy is canonically larger than the Republic's. Both sides are extremely well funded too.
They've definitely got both ships and hyperdrives to spare yet they never use hyperspace ramming.
Frikgeek, he also said that both sides had better firepower that was more efficient anyways, why would you lose one of your ships and kill one of theirs, maybe a few more, if you can can just shoot it instead
Koria Borein yes but it would leave behind a lot of debris flying at hyper speed that are extremely dangerous. They don’t do it for the same reasons we don’t use nukes because of the environmental impact or in Star Wars’s case galactic space damage
Pikamaster07 ah yes that’s why the death star came in and blew up alderann and immediately lost multiple star destroyers in the explosion.
Winner Diego ah forgot about that. :/
The realy problem with this whole thing is the folowing:
Watching the entirity of star wars, all the battles I mean, I personnaly never thought of doing that, not even once. And it is safe to assume that not many star wars character had the idea either, if none. Lets be honest, being a trained and experienced military staff, it takes either isanaty or genius, strapped with a desparate situation, to come up with something that crazy.
This isn't an obvious tactics that anyone could think of.
Taking it for granted because you saw it ONCE in a movie is a huge mistake.
And beside, it's truly unfaire to shower the creators of the movie with irrelevant critics for bring a novel idea to the star wars universe.
TLJ is the worse movie of the franchise in my opinion, but I still like it despite its flaws.
This makes no sense. The Raddus was ~2km long and the "hyperspace shrapnel" flew out, more or less, in a cone at least 100x the length of the raddus. A correllian corvette is like 90m long, so to buy enough time, say to escape yavin in episode 4, all you'd need to do is ram a correllian corvette (very cheap ship the rebels had loads of), to knock a 10km deep radioactive crater of destruction into the death star and completely disable the main weapon. It is such a ridiculous force multiplier that it completely invalidates any strategy that relies on the creation of large ships (literally the Tarkin strategy). It means you can take out a star destroyer with a rebel transport, a carrack cruiser with a fighter. It makes asymmetric warfare a guaranteed win.
Ironically, it actually makes more sense than star wars, and that's the problem. I could suspend disbelief before, now I can't because they're like "Oh hey, you know that really obvious thing nobody has done for "insert handwavy reason here"? No that actually works, it's just that everyone in the galaxy with the exception of some purple-haired cunt has been high on glue for the last 20,000 years.
This x100000000000000
Exactly. Why didn't anybody think until this point to make a missile with a hyperdrive? There's no need for crew sacrifices if a computer program can do it.
Also the idea that the rebellion can't afford to waste hyperdrives is laughable. Litteraly every single one of their x-wing has one equipped, and they had no issue sending them in the fray. If a fighter in hyperdrive could have that amount of destructive power, then the logical step would be : put some droids in there, and go kamikaze.
Plus if the death star even came near a hyperspace route it'd be turned into Alderaan by a thousand passing freighters. This could fly for a smaller ship but the DS (and more so starkiller) is big enough to crash into and mobile enough to not be charted as a celestial.
One note here - the destruction scales with the mass of the ship, not the length. So while a corvette is 20x smaller, the destruction wouldn't be 20x smaller. It would be 20x20x20=8000x smaller. But even 8000x smaller destruction is still massive.
"A cash strapped rebellion has absolutely no business destroying such a valuable resource for just one kill."
We're not talking about just one kill here. We're talking about the freaking Death Star. If the Death Star destroyed Yavin, then there would be no more Rebellion. Therefore, normal cost-benefit analyses should go out of the window.
There is a big problem with this particular argument. Several actually.
The rebellion didnt have much of a fleet left after scarif. Whatever hyperspace capable non-fighters they had would have been in use evacuating key personnel and equipment from Yavin.
Even if they did their full scarif fleet intact the biggest ship in it is a lot smaller then the raddus and the death star is a lot bigger then the supremacy.
MWBalls yeah but a single GR-75 into the disc on the death star will surely knock it out long enough for the rebels to escape and as for space im sure they could cram those people into another transport long enough for them to get away from the empire
@@alientitimilk9073 but they are wasting they own ships. The Rebellion needs every kind of resources and can not destroy ships that way
@@traskulgo it's the fucking deathstar, destroying the deathstar will have a greater impact on the empire than losing one of your ships.
Yes but it’s not like the empire is limited to just the Death Star and of the rebellion was just willing to sacrifice its pilots for kills ultimately it would fail. All pilots expect to give their lives for the cause but in the end they would spend more money trying to get pilots than giving their pilots better conditions for fighting
It’s been proven by scientific calculation, that a paperclip, if accelerated to lightspeed or near light speed, could have an equivalent impact force to several atomic bombs. So, a ship of such size would not be needed to do this tactic. An X-wing could pull something like this off. Also, bringing up price is irrelevant. Losing an entire squadron of hyperdrive equipped X-wings in a battle is more than okay, by this logic, but using a single X-wing equivalent weapon/missile sort of thing to destroy a enemy star-destroyer class ship is out of the question? Nonsensical. And, upon reaching full speed after slamming through a target, it’s possible that the debris could simply enter hyperspace and be spat out far from anything. Anyways, that’s my rant over. G’day!
That's not how hyperspace works watch Event Horizon with Sam Neill and Laurence Fishburne in the movie he talks about how fast light speed goes you're basically not going anywhere from one or two you going from 0 you're practically going through another dimension without even hitting anything around or in front of you you're going bending Through Time
If a paperclip was accelerated to the speed of light, it would literally have infinite energy
@@bonnierabbit1413 I don't think I understand your point. If you are going through the other dimension, then how did the rebels hit The Supremacy if the 2 ships were in different dimensions?
@@loneranger4282 watch the OG Star Trek you'll find out
@@bonnierabbit1413 Is that movie called "Star Trek: The Motion Picture"?
Losing 1 ship for Hyperspeed Ramming = Wasteful
Losing 100 ships in normal battle = Efficient
Genius
Losing hundreds of experienced pilots who have pensions that requiring pay==efficient.
1 small object strapped with mass, cheaply produced FTL engine, and basic targeting computers==inefficient.
Seriously, there are ways to maximize the destructive capabilities of hyperspace if this is going to be treated canon. The amount of energy you can direct at the enemy, for the cost can be optimized to maximize damage.
You don't even need a good hyperspace drive. The cheapest, shittiest thing that can remain in an inert form for a long time without breaking down will work. Take the specs of that, add the targeting computers, and engines needed to do basic, sub-light maneuvering/vectoring. Then maximize mass. The cheapest metals/minerals can work. And given the amount of useless minerals, you can reduce costs greatly.
Look at the size of the Raddus, look at the size of an X-wing. The Raddus is a lot bigger an had experimental shields which is why so much debris was propelled into the star destroyers. The size difference between the Raddus and the Supremacy is very different compared the an X-Wing and the Death Star. and X-Wing wouldn't do anything against the death star. besides if you were a fighter pilot in real life would you rather be in a dog fight where you could die or commit suicide and take out a base?
@@Revilod You aren't thinking this all the way through. While it may seem like something that few want to attempt, and indeed, it is a suicide mission--no doubt about it--it is in cynical terms, the best option. But, it's not necessary to send organic pilots up--we already know that smart machines exist, so instead of using a pilot, just utilize an integrated droid AI. The distances it can operate and initial a burn sequence would be measured in Astronomical Units, well out of the range of most ship board weapons. And the relative size of the craft make targeting the missile-ships difficult, especially when you take in a few seconds of lightspeed delay.
Pilots aren't necessary. Instead of spending billions, if not trillions, on training fighters in dogfighting, spend it on the hardware many times more effective than a fighter in capital ship combat. I suspect there will still be niche for dogfighters in Star Wars, but that is a separate topic entirely, depending on the rules being considered.
And sure, if we want to talk in terms of effective damage outright destroying the Death Star, I will cede it will not destroy it. But, aim it at particular sections, and you'll cause grave damage. Firing some hyperspeed missiles of freighter size, and watch the destruction. Hell, you don't even need to have the entire station implode, simply disable the fire control, fighter bays, and cause enough catastrophic damage to cripple the Station. And, you basically can't miss.
Also, the point about experimental shields doesn't make much sense. If you are saying they intentionally installed weak or unrefined shield technology, state so clearly. Even if they are significantly better, they shouldn't be able to hold up against lightspeed, when considering the mass of the objects being thrown at them. They will crumble, and crack, if they don't fold completely.
@@jackr2287 Science in Star Wars doesn't work the same way in real life. A small ship moving at light speed is not meant to do very much against a moon sized space station. By getting too technical with this you ruin the lore for your self.
Why Trade Federation just no hyperspeed against the Jedi Temple in Coruscant, and kill some clone generals, Yoda and Mace Windu. 1 cargo garbage ship and some droids = thousands of Jedi.
What really breakers lore is the fact that the first order is stupid enough to build a 60Km ship that doesn't even have a single gravity well
Borre Peper cause you know, all the other 60 km was chump change. But man, that gravity well. The stone that broke the camel's back.
You'd think something named a Mega Star Destroyer in a childish fit of "my dad can beat up your dad" would pack a lot of Gravity Well Generators as you said. Oh to hell with it. Why didn't it have a Superlaser? The First Order has portable Death Star lasers, so why don't their warships have one? Wasn't this ship supposed to be everything the Eclipse Super Star Destroyer from legends was, only better?
Borre Peper gravity well do nothing for hyperspace now after TFA
Phan Tran what? But in SW rebels they've had multiple scenes were they pulled ships out of hyper space when they tried to jump
Borre Peper TFA have solo go hyperspace through the shield of the Sk base which pretty sure have gravity well
I still think that strapping a class 20 hyperdrive to a big rock an trowing it at star destroyers is cheaper than actually building star destroyers, i mean for the price of 1 star destroyer you can get like 1000 hyperdrived rocks and unlike with the star destroyer you have the potential to destroy hundreds of capital ships and actually hurt the empire a hell of a lot harder than all rebellion ships from all time combined
Diego Gonzalez The idea that you can simply strap a hyperdrive to an asteroid and expect it to work as intended is probably more stupid than the ramming scene seems to be perceived. It may be true that a lot of movie viewers nowadays seem to go out of their way to nit-pick flaws, but the fact that this particular "flaw" has also been turned into a trending topic is absurd. If you're going to criticize this scene, there are a number of other things in star wars you should criticize, like the unrealistic movement of ships in space, for example. I don't see why this is an issue, given the semi-fantasy setting star wars takes place in.
Analytic31 yes many other thing make no sense on star wars but particulary this one completely breaks the whole star wars universe thats why is so popular since anyone at any moment could just ram their cheap shitty ship on a star destroyer or the two death stars or hyper kick palpatines ass whenever the ocassion appeared also i dont know why is stupid to strap a hyperdrive to a asteroid since they are expendable and, if you can make only one of those rocks to hit its target at light speed is game over
Analytic31 why is it so stupid? We see in the prequels that a jedi starfighter can be hooked up to a hyperspace ring. Attach one of those or a bigger one to an asteroid, have an R2 unit pilot it, and there you go.
Analytic31 The difference is we can look at how the ships movement operates and see ALL ships in the universe are operating this way. We can look at how lightsabers and blasters operate and notice they all have similar, consistent properties. We can see force users and how they train and use their powers. If we can suspend our disbelief, with a bit of set up, demonstration or expansion, enough to accept these things are a feature of the setting then we can watch comfortably.
If suddenly there was a ship flying with hard real-world physics we'd be unimmersed, wondering what was happening, even though it would be more realistic. Until a character mentioned how it was using ancient engines without maneuvering controls.
If a lightsaber suddenly couldn't deflect a blaster bolt we'd wonder what was going on there too and why they weren't used all the time. Unless the gun had been built up as, say, a rare Jedi hunting gun with expensive unblockable bullets.
The reason so many people hated the hyperspace ram is that it put them in that situation. It's not about realistic or not, it's that it is inconsistent with the setting as it is presented. We can accept Jedi's unrealistic reflexes, but would lose that suspension of disbelief if they suddenly gained 100 metre long stretchy limbs.
Here we have a ship doing a very effective attack that we've never seen before and not given an explanation as to why this was an exception. ("Sir! Our shields are depleted from directing power to the engines!" "No matter. Their weapons are too weak to cause much damage" "They aren't charging weapons!" There. I stopped half the complaints about it. Still an issue in that unshielded ships haven't been vulnerable before, but it's a start.)
People are drawn out of the immersion wondering what just happened and why it doesn't match what they know about the setting. That's why it's such a bad scene. Even if you can justify it later, (and though I think it can be defended, I disagree that it can be completely justified) the damage is done.
Artur Ferrão Han shouldn't even be able to fire more than one shot with the thing either. You need the strength of a wookiee or trandoshan to reload the damn thing.
Fun fact: the Space Gun is a canon Empire superweapon that was basically the hyperspace equivalent of the Ace combat Chandelier railgun, it fired giant hyperspace missiles that would crack open or destroy planets. This has been done before, and it was hated then as well.
It is not the same, because hyperspace missile was not using the speed from hyperspace jump as its means of destruction, it was some type of explosives that I don't remember, but it is not the same
Also that was in the original Star Wars sequels, not the fanfics that Kathleen Kennedy wrote.
The problem with your argument is the Rebellion has the blueprints for the Death Star. They logically should know exactly where to ram it to cause maximum damage... its main reactor located perfectly in the center of the spherical station that's so unstable it only takes 2 torpedoes to destroy it completely.
A ship the size of the Raddus completely cut through a 13 km ship with ease. For the Death Star they only need to get debris to reach the reactor, which is only about 40km from its surface.
So all the Rebellion would need to do is capture 2 or 3 massive freighters/cruise starships, which a dozen armed men on a rubber dinghy can do in the real world, so let's say two or three squads of troops on a transport. Then dump the crew/passengers somewhere and kamikaze the captured ships into the Death Star with a crew of a few droids. If the first ship doesnt penetrate far enough, then launch the second one into it, by the time the third hits it should easily reach the reactor and destroy the whole space station. Heck, they could even dig up a few Lucrehulk-class Battleships that are far more massive than the Raddus.
Basically it would cost the Rebellion next to nothing resource wise as it wouldn't be their ships, but ones they confiscated and retrofitted with a small suicide droid crew.
but what they ended up doing up was much more effective?
@@Bothandle70 the shot Luke took was impossible. They gambled hard they could do it because it was their only hope. Which is the point, because if hyperspace ramming was actually a thing they could have just kamikazed a lot of ships into it until they hit the reactor.
It's a question about probabilities. If Hyperspace ramming was possible it would be by far the surest method.
@@jonathanryan9946 they also thought computer could be used to make precision hit. So they thought their mission would succeed. Only when it didn't manage to do it they realize it was a gamble.
There was also another factor, the laser bullet(don't know the exact name. Torpedoes?) had to be pulled by the reactor(it went straight after it was fired then went downwards) so pulling that off from hyperspace jump would be impossible.
@@jonathanryan9946 If it was impossible, then it wouldn't have happened.
@@aolson1111 it didn't, until the force intervened via a force sensitive pilot who did the impossible with its guidance.
I beg to differ. Sending a small ship through the core of the death star is a far cheaper and safer alternative to fighting it head on and hoping that someone can hit the ventilation opening.
The Death Star has its own gravity well, and the outer hull is thick enough and tough enough to withstand capital ship bombardment.
J17, it's a matter of options. On one hand, you could try the Hyperspace Ram (if it worked) and maybe disable a Death Star so that it doesn't blow up your planet or maybe not. On the other hand, you may throw X-Wings at it in the crazy hope that one of them will get through all defenses and land a mathematically impossible shot. One option might work or not and will only cost you one ship (or asteroid with a hyperdrive strapped to it) if it fails. The other is a ludicrous act of desperation which will cost you your entire fleet, all your pilots, and your planet if it fails. If we are talking about the Death Star II with it's gaping holes, there choice becomes even more extreme.
To ram the death star you need an object with far greater mass than the one used in TLJ. hundreds or thousands times more mass in fact.
There is no need to annihilate the Death Star, it's enough to damage its core reactor.
Well you still have to get the ship there and then you still loose a person vs you do the same thing but don’t loose a person.
The video has multiple problems even outside of the argument about the rebellion being low on cash
1. Why don’t Imperials use it? Sure, it’s situational because rebels don’t have a lot of capital ships, but it’s still a guaranteed one shot kill.
2. Republic and CIS exist, and they never were low on cash, seriously concerned with loses or had a shortage of enemy capital ships to battle.
And don’t tell me that nobody thought of this during that era, because that is a huge insult to every admiral and military scientist who ever lived between the invention of hyperspace travel and Holdo Manoeuvre. Having FTL travel and not thinking of weaponising it is something no general in the history of ever would do.
Good points, though you put "C.S.A." and not "C.I.S."
Now I can only think of is a bunch of Confederates having access to Hyperdrives and using the Holdo Manoeuvre on Union Ships.
@@benalor1973 oh lol sorry about that, fixed
i agree, in tcw anakin rammed his broken ship into the sep ship, but he didnt do it in hyperspace, because its surpose to go to another deminsion. if you could hyperspace ram, why would anakin not hyperspace ram his ship into the sep ship
@@themelon_1785 Because Ryloth was behind it. "An object in motion remains in motion at constant speed and in a straight line unless acted on by an unbalanced force." Anakin's goal was to break the blockade to deliver relief supplies to Twi'Leks on the surface, not to destroy a sepi ship and cause an apocalypse.
In Star Wars, a ship accelerates to near C (the speed of light) before entering hyperspace. That's when the ramming happens, not after entering. Even if the Defender was only moving at .01 C that is a cataclysmic impact force. Some napkin math: assuming a Venator at 1155 meters has comparable density per meter as a Nimitz class aircraft carrier at 333, and adjusting for size, it's total mass is 693692000 kg. Plug that into F=M*A, with "A" being the velocity of 299.72 (.01 the speed of light) squared. Plug that in and you get 6.2345737 e+15 (times 10 to the 15th power) Newtons, which is 635,749 megatons, six times the impact that killed the dinosaurs. The Tsar Bomb, the largest bomb ever detonated, was 50 megatons. That impact would be the equivalent of 12,714 super nukes. That makes for one super dead planet. And all of this is super low balling it. Assuming the materials aren't way more dense than earth steel, that you enter hyperspace at 1/100th the speed of light, not counting the bits of the Leucherhulk that would be shot into the planet at nearly the same speed, ignoring radiation, ignoring what the detonating engine would do. Just the Venator, it's mass, and speed, kills the planet six times over.
That's why Anakin didn't do that. That's why you don't just willy-nilly near-lightspeed ram things in space. That's why this isn't the gaping plot hole that shatters canon people constantly claim it is.
I'm pretty sure he addressed both of these in the video lol
The problem is that in another movie the falcon enters hyperspace from inside the closed cargo bay of another ship. you can't have it both ways.
What movie and when?
Genuinely curious.
@@ShatteredXenoforce awakens
@@borgthepig Thanks.
Why do people not understand that Hyperspace is an actual different dimension. Its not "just going really fast" its literally going into a different realm of existence.
THANK YOU, nothing about this scene made sense, nothing in this movie even
I think it's both - before jumping into a hyperspace, ship appears to accelerate to a great velocity momentarily.
Exactly! Otherwise you would just ran into planets the entire time
I always imagined it to be like entering a warphole, without actually having to enter a warphole
While it is true that hyperspace is just a sub space dimension, ships in hyperspace carry some sort of “mass shadow” that CAN interact with our plane of existence.
Hyper drive the Death Star through planets
You can't hyperdrive thru planets, once you reach the gravity well of the planet, you get pulled out of hyperspace
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 Yeah, same with trying to Hyperspace Ram the Death Star
@@darkwolf4434 also, all those arguments about hyperspace missiles can be routed by interdicter cruisers
@@grayefarer8151 it's not a safety feature, you literally CANT hyperspace through gravity Wells, which is why interdicter cruisers with very, very powerful artificial gravity well generators were created to trap ships and prevent them from simply jumping into hyperspace
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 And yet Disney thought it was a bright idea to have the rules of hyperspace broken in damn near every movie they've put out since.
R1: The U-wing enters Hyperspace in Atmosphere at Jedha.
TFA: Jumping in *past* the planetary defense field of Starkiller base. (Which that also means TLJ broke the rules of the last movie as it TFA was still treating hyperspace as a dimension shift)
TLJ: ...Christ
I posted this as a response to a comment, but I feel I spent enough time on this to move it into the real comments:
Relativistic energy is a little funny. the equation is (y-1)mc^2, where y is our Lorentz Factor, calculated by the equation y=1/(sqrt(1-(v/c)^2)). Lets take an object moving at .9C for our example.
For simplicity, we'll assume the object is 1 kilogram in mass, and that an object moving at that speed will not burn up in the atmosphere. We'll also round C up to 3x10^8 m/s.
For our Lorentz factor we get a number of approximately 2.29416, which gives us a kinetic energy equation of (1.29416)(1 Kg)(9x10^16 m/s) = 1.165x10^17 Joules, which comes out to equate to roughly 27 Megatons of TNT. Our one kilogram mass, dropped on central park would cause third degree burns 44 kilometers away.
But it gets scarier. if we increase that speed to .99C, an increase of .09, our energy sextuples to around 6.4x10^17 joules, about 152 megatons of TNT. The closer you get to C, the exponential amounts more energy you need.
Keep in mind, all of this is for a 1 KG object. which means that, because to scale up we simply need to multiply by the mass, an object travelling at .99 light speed has the energy of *150 MEGATONS OF TNT PER KILOGRAM OF MASS*
The Star Wars wiki doesn't give us the weight of the Raddus, however it gives us a length of about 3400 meters by 700 meters by 400 meters, which means, using dimensional analysis, we have a metal object of about 9.5 billion cubic meters. Assuming its made of conventional metals, lets say steel with a mass of about 8000kg/m^3, and lets just assume the weight of the ship is all that we care about, no ammo or supplies or smaller ships docked, we can estimate the mass of the Raddus to be about 7.616 Trillion Kilograms in weight
Multiply this by our equation of 150 Megatons per KG, and we can see that the Raddus colliding with a planet at just .99C, not even hyperspace velocities, would impact with a force of *1.1424 QUADRILLION MEGATONS OF TNT, OR 1.1424 SEPTILLION TONS OF TNT, or 4.8x10^30 JOULES*
*THAT IS THE ENTIRE ENERGY OUTPUT OF THE SUN FOR FOUR HOURS*
*NEEDLESS TO SAY THAT PLANET IS FUCKING TOAST*
This is a UNIVERSE breaking plot hole
Sorry to say you that, but... Star Wars is not SciFi. I mean, on everything, it fucks science. It is what is called in science-fiction "soft science". In this case, very, very, very soft. Planets with always same gravity and same air, sounds, explosions, in space (the famous example),soooo much things...
At this level, we can say this is fantasy, no matter it is Space Opera with robots, technologic-looking ships, planets....
So, this is fun to make science exercises in cult fiction, and I hope you enjoyed doing it and people will enjoy reading it.
'Cause beyond entertaining, this explaining was as useless as explaining how scientifically and technologically functions the Ring, using AI science, light (for the invisible power)science....
What I mean is SW universe is not reprochable to fuck REAL science. It is reprochable to fuck his OWN science, his own logic and rules.
Like if a 1st year Hogwarts students apparates everytime he wants and can handle eyes covered a battle vs Grindelwald, Merlin, Dumbledore and Voldemort (wow freakin' epic battle it wold be by the way).
SW didn't respected his OWN fantasy science, impossible-in-our-world logic with this hyperspace deal.
Anyway, I see that you enjoyed calculate it, and that it makes life freaking easier when you're strong in maths (not like me).
With your level you should make a science on fiction channel by the way.
Hak hak hak!
I'm not that sure. What is the most official and sure web dictionnary? We should check SciFi definition to debate on this basic information;
If you can please give me some arguments?
My definition of SciFi is that it attempts to give scientifically coherent theories of things that could potentially exist, througt a fictionnal world.
I think SW never (maybe there are exceptions)made this. How hyperdrive works is never scientifically explained, the Force is a magical mystical energy, every species can be found on a fantasy world, and... Look, i will make a SciFi-Looking SW VS a Fantasy-Looking SW:
-planets VS countries and continents
-species VS species
-Metal ship with a technologic-looking style with buttons, cables everywhere, and a system to go in hyperdrive when you press buttons VS wooden boat that goes on a magical portal when you say the magic spell to go faster
-Space VS ocean
You see, when in this VS list you remark that in every SciFi example there is no more scientific explaining than in his Fantasy mirror-example, you understand that the SW world's SciFi is just a decoration, a way to tell a story that never gives scientific explaining.
Beyond the cables, buttons, machines, technology-looking world, there is no explaining of how this technology works.
It's technology of an imaginary world, a world where there are sounds, fire, explosions in space.
PS i don't mean that SW is bad because of it, I LOVE SW.
I didn't know there was explainings in Expanded Universe. It's not that I never paid attention, it is that I have too much fiction to look and read, i'm lost in all of it, so it's very complicated to me to jump into the gigantic expanded universe.
I'd be glad if you could advise me where to begin in Legends SW.
Visually stunning, lore breaking...
it'S not lore breaking. if it is, it means Star wars is not well constructed. but it is. Geroge Lucas is no foo;l
The a-wing pilot that destroyed the super star destroyer: am i a joke to you?
/thread
And he never once used the hyperdrive. Imagine the damage if he did
They were all targetting that super star destroyer. Bridge shield taken down. You can see when it crashes that 1 of the main thrusters is damaged and leaking a trail of flame. And it's cannon that Piette made a tactical error bringing the Executor so close to the death star that it got caught in its gravity. That a-wing actually got real lucky taking out the bridge.
People tend to stop suspending their disbelief when the story isn’t very good. I think that might be why A wing guy gets a pass as roj was engaging and exciting. Tlj sadly was not
@@silverdandy4658 they literally show the Star Destroyer's shield generator getting blown up in the scene right before it. That's why they accept the A-wing.
Although admirable trying to defend it, your points themselves have a few “plot holes”. If you watch any Star Wars space battle, you’ll see that every time rebels try to attack the empire, even if they win, it costs them tons of fighters and bombers and even larger ships, such as frigates and corvettes. So while “kamikaze” so to say tactics are somewhat wasteful, in the sense that you can only use the craft once... it doesn’t matter because you are still saving a net positive amount of resources.
Before to take down a star destroyer, it would mean loosing multiple X wings, A wings and Y wings. But with hyper space ramming you’d only need to sacrifice 1 small craft and aim it at the bridge or the engines (or even on its under side where the massive reactor chore is), either way, disabling an entire star destroyer and potentially destroying it. So in a hypothetical battle, the rebels would lose maybe a dozen craft as opposed to dozens, but they’d also be eliminating dozens of star destroyers. The only plausible sort of counter measure I’ll admit would be a gravity well ship, which would prevent such attacks, but most star destroyers weren’t accompanied by those ships (and concentrating fire on said ship in the beginning of the battle to eliminate it, would be a viable tactic).
And the money strapped resistance still manages to equip all its craft (including fighters and bombers) with hyper drives, so as frugal as they might be, they aren’t exactly poor.
The main issue kinda arises in the way hyperdrives work. In Star Wars hyperdrives don’t just make you go fast through space. The idea is that you go SO fast that you actually start traveling in a sort of space fold or different dimension (I’ll admit the science isn’t precise to me). But the way it’s shown in TLJ is that you just go through regular space really fast. The point of hyperlanes isn’t so you don’t hit objects, the point is to make a corridor clear of Massive objects that would pull you out of hyperspace with their gravity (ergo the use of gravity well ship weapons). And lastly this is hardly the main flaw with TLJ. The mere fact that Holdo said she “needed to pilot the ship and had to stay” was ridiculous because even autopilot aside, at no point did she in the following moments actually pilot the ship. She was just walking around the bridge dramatically until of course she decided to do the maneuver in question (the real reason she needed to stay behind, unbeknownst to her, but known to the writers).
We only see the major battles with the heaviest loses for the Rebellion in the movies. I doubt something like that was going on every Sunday.
EVER.. ALLWAYS hiperspace was a diferent dimension where the hiperdrive engines take ships to .. but they didnt got lightspeed in real space.. or even near.. the ship "jumping away" was allways a representation of the process..
Aparently Ryan Jonhson despite is alleged vast star wars knowledge didnt learnt ..or cared about this
Yonah Sefchovich you don’t even need to aim at important parts for the ship to go boom 1 10^3000000
Except you don't need a fully functional warship for a hyperspace ram. All you need is an empty frame/hull and a hyperdrive, which really isn't as expensive as you might think if some junker like Watto had one on a backwatter world like Tatooine.. They are commercially available in several different classes.
You wouldn't even need that. If this worked then you would build a hyperspace torpedo consisting of some mass (tungsten or depleted uranium or Imperial battle steel), a hyperdrive motor, and a guidance unit. Throw on some sub-light engines and a shield generator and you would have something far cheaper and more compact than a starship. These would be cheaper and more effective than fighters.
The books did have a Hyperspace cannon capable of firing missiles across the galaxy but that was a specialized piece of hardware which explains why it wasn't commonplace. TLJ really does make every "super weapon" that appears in future movies beg the question of why they won't be destroyed in the same way Holdo used.
Adam A The new movies piss me off with all the BS they do in complete disregard for the established universe.
take asteroid. strap hyperdrive on. bob is your uncle
you need to power a hyperdrive that can jump that ship you cant just put a hyperdrive from a small fighter onto a massive ship it will never be able to create a big enough bubble.
The only question I had in this scene was: Where did they take the power for the Hyperdrive?!
I haven't seen the movie, since it came out, but as far as I remember, at the beginning of the movie, they said, they have enough fuel left for one jump or 11 hours in sublight. (Which is illogical, because after the first acceleration they should not have been needing any more fuel to keep their speed for the rest of their lives)
They chose Sublight and after that time was nearly over, they transferred their last fuel on their shuttles to escape.
So after 90% of the needed fuel consumed and the rest taken out of the tanks, HOW THE H*** DID SHE HYPERDRIVE!?!
Well, the ship didnt reach the hyper space at that point, so we dont know how much energy was consumed doing that maneuver.
And since the required relativistic kinetic energy rises rapidly near the speed of light, it it possible, even likely that just a fraction of the required hyperdrive energy was used for this maneuver.
Hyperspace is an alternate dimension, not just a really fast speed, hence it needs continuous fuel supply
@@xgunnerplaystwo2412 But like I said, they where not in hyperspace. They were flying with sublight, like our shuttles would be flying through space.
So the normal physics should apply here and after the first acceleration, the momentum should have carried them further, without wasting any more fuel.
@@xgunnerplaystwo2412 Dude, you have problem with text understanding. No offence, I'm pretty sure it is normal today. Just saying.
@@eleweyter4462 You will not get any answer for this question. Ruin Johnson just like Jar Jar Abrams doesn't understand the science in scence fiction. Yes, the original Star Wars made mistakes too but that one never tried to be nerdy with this space fuel crap. It was a fairy tale for adults happening in space, they didn't cared about distance or fuel or eating or using toilet. The sequels try to be smart but they don't understand the science so they make crap like yhat you talking about or crap when the starkiller base killed 5 planet in one shot and people saw it from the planet.
Jar Jar doesn't understand space at all, and Ruin doesn't care about Star Wars.
Your lore friendly answer doesn't exist.
Your real answer is: Lazy Screenwriting.
For what it's worth, this sort of thing is actually a common issue with /any/ space opera setting. It's very hard to design an FTL system that isn't easy to use as a WMD.
Yea, as far as i know there’s no real “solution” to it
They had the perfect solution with hyperspace being a different dimension. Then they ruined it.
@@monkydance2880 The solution is a wormhole, since you are not traveling faster, you are just traveling less distance, ie making a shortcut in reality
@@10gamer64 no you are in a different dimension confirmed in one of the Han Solo books
Yes hyperdrives are expensive. Yet the alliance puts them on all their fighters. You also have to assume that, like any military organization, there are expected losses.
This is also ignoring the fact that MASS is all that matters for a hyperdrive ramming ship. You don't need weapons, shields or anything else but a hyperdrive, rudimentary maneuvering, and probably some remote piloting ability (assuming you don't want to kill anyone). If it's a drone, you don't need life support either. Take a large ship shell, fill it with mass (like crap from any asteroid belt), point and shoot.
or you just use a asteroid directly xD
I suppose you could strap some engines and a hyperdrive to an asteroid.... all the mass you would need.
@Phantom Gaming Not really. Looks for inaccuracies in an established film universe about (among other things) people who can manipulate gravity with their bare hands, that contradicts what that universe has set up. Film 8 in a series kinda has to fit in line with what the previous 7 movies have established.
Let's take Leia doing her space walk for example. Is it possible that a force user might learn to create a protective bubble around them so they could survive in space. Even if it hasn't been done before, I guess someone could do that.
But not someone that has never trained their force powers. And even if that person can pull it off, the ship they got blown out off travels through space. They're not slowing down to wait for the person, so it would fly past them rather quickly. So you can't just float right back to after you spent 30 seconds drifting out there. Can't fall overboard from a cruiseship and just swim back to it unless it stops for you.
And you certainly can't just open a door that leads to outer space and just get back in without everyone in the adjacent corridor being sucked towards it along with the atmosphere in that corridor, when that's exactly how you ended up in outer space yourself. The bridge got blown open and everyone got sucked out.
See, can't just look past everything as if this was a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Shit has to make some sense, with what has been established previously.
@Phantom Gaming So everything goes when watching a film, because it's just a film. If in Endgame Tony had decided to travel back in time to raise Thanos from a baby to be more compassionate so he doesn't do the snap, even though the movie said you can't change the past of your own timeline, that would be totally fine with you. Writers can just do whatever the fuck they want.
Or if they hadn't turned the Skrull into good guys and it had been revealed that Captain America had been one since they found him in the ice and he had been working towards Earths destruction ever since. When the other movies clearly show that can't be true. It's just a movie.
Nobody is saying the lightspeed ramming is BS because of realism. The argument is that nobody has ever done it, which kinda establishes that it can't be used that way. Because the thing about military tactics is, if you could weaponize lightspeed, people would've done so. And when movie 8 in a series throws that in, people look at the other 7 movies and go "well why didn't they do that".
And none of the apologetic explanations makes sense. Holdo can't be the first to have ever thought about it. Not only is she shown to not be smart when she allows her crew to mutiny for no reason. But the officers on Snokes ship know what she's about to do, when she turns the ship around and powers up the hyperdrive. So they knew too.
People wouldn't sacrifice themselves isn't gonna work because of droids, auto pilot and heroic people willing to make the sacrifice being readily available.
Cost isn't a good reason either. It's much cheaper to build a ship for that purpose than building a normal large capital ship. There is a whole lot of shit you don't need in that case which cuts down cost and building time. Or you use asteroids like people pointed out. And the empire had no money problems. They certainly could've afforded this shit. Could a cruiser sized lightspeed ram take out the death star? Probably not. But it doesn't need to. Just gotta damage the part that projects the laster beam enough.
About lightspeed. You realize Star Wars takes place in a galaxy, right? Like the Milky Way galaxy. Do you have any idea how big those are? The radius of the Milky Way is 52.850 lightyears. So that's how long it would take to get around travelling at the speed of light.
It's called lightspeed because that's the threshold where you enter hyperspace, which is faster than lightspeed travel in a separate dimension. And if you have infinite mass at the speed of light, hell you don't need a big ship then. An X-Wing would do the same damage as a large cruiser, because both their masses would be infinite.
@Phantom Gaming Who's talking about hyper realistic? Only you. We're talking about doing things that break what previous movies have established. That's a problem. A movie in a series has to respect the "universe" and it's rules that previous movies have established.
If Rey in the next movie jumps from the planets surface into space and hyperjumps to another planet, that would be a problem. If she Jedi Mind tricks a star destroyer, that would be a problem. Lucas could've done that in A new hope because it was the first movie and everything was a blank page. In Episode 8 that blank page no longer exists. 7 other movies have filled it already and you can't just throw it out like nothing.
Now if Holdo had done the ramming, and the people on the transport would've been shocked and Poe would've gone "How did she do that? It's not possible to uselightspeed that way" and someone else would've answered "well the Raddus (the ship Holdo did it with) had these new experimental shields. She must've figured that those make it possible". Still the problem with the officers on Snokes ship knowing what was about to happen. And now you got to deal with that in any movie going forward, because you can just make more of these special shields. But at the very least you try to explain to the audience why it was possible now, but not in previous movies.
Just doing it because it looks cool visually is not enough.
Some people do care about the integrity and lore that a series has established and when it's broken like this without any explanation and brings all these problems:
Like Luke even thinking about killing his nephew in his sleep for a slip second. The guy risked his life to turn his father good again. If you want to justify him doing that you can't just go "I sensed dark in him". That doesn't work with what we know about the character from previous movies. There are ways you could get there.
Have a scene with Snoke and Hux where they reveal to the audience that Snoke with his mind powers influenced Luke into doing that without Luke's knowledge, so that Kylo would turn on Luke and destroy what he had built and Snoke could get his hands on him.
Then the audience knows why Luke did something that goes against his character, but he doesn't. And you can go this "he blamed himself and became a hermit" route and people can get on board and actually have sympathy with Luke.
The way the movie did it to justify this hermit thing made no sense with what we know about Luke. This is his sisters and best friends son, he has watched growing up and that has at that point done nothing evil. And we're supposed to believe he'd consider killing him. But tries to save Vader who had done horrible things and with whom he had no connection other than finding out he was his father. Get the fuck out of here, if those inaccuracies don't matter because it's a film. Because some of us like to actually use our brains and we have some standards that a movie has to meet when telling a story.
"Hyper drive is expensive", so are nukes. "It cost a lot for maintenance and upkeep", just like nukes.
We drop bombs worth half a million for target practice. Just strap it to a bunch of asteroids lead a fleet into a field and instant win. Its even an ambush tactic.
They also fit Luke Skywalker's X wing with a hyper drive.
We don't drop nukes for target practice. And half a million in the scale of the budget of the Department of Defense is not expensive.
Harry Michelson cuz we never tested nukes underground or in the ocean. We never conducted high altitude explosions or irradiated our own troops.
We just flew a bomber over Japan and hoped the calculations where prefect.
Earthquakes from North Korea, they must be fracking for oil.
Shiro Amada 😂😂😂
They could also cheap out with the hyperdrive, it would only ever need to be used twice at most for a dedicated hyperdrive ram weapon. Once to arrive close by and a second time to do the ram.
The rebels could have just purchased a few scrappy old freighters from the junkyard and rammed them into the Death Star. Considering the amount of damage the Raddus caused to the enemy fleet, I'm sure crashing a few Corellian freighters into the Death Star would have completely obliterated it.
Maybe not so as obliterate but it sure as hell wouldve taken out key components... like the huge fucking laser on the space ball
Or just strap a few old hyperdrive units onto asteroids, slam them all into your enemy's capitol buildings and shipyards, and win the war with no battles, no friendly casualties, and none of your own ships lost. Nobody would wage war any other way if this was possible.
Money isnt infinite...except for the 1st order apparently. We see all the kanto bight schmucks that sell them weapons, but where do they get the money? Srsly how many flag ships have they lost now? Even if they are some remnant of the empire the movies never explain that
Arch Enemy yeah obv it's stupid
+Arch Enemy I'm pretty sure they explain how the First Order built itself up where no one was watching in side material.
*IT'S A MOVIE.*
TOBLERONE TUBE
Who cares? It should at least make sense...
I too think all movies should consist of nothing but incoherent garbage. You and I are one and the same, Toblerone Tube.
Interesting explanation, however, I still think it's a cheap, poorly thought out cliché. Hyperspace drives are valuable but not uncommon and using this tactic means every ship captain could extort planets by threatening them with an extinction level event. It would be like every person on earth having access to their own personal nuke.
I always figured when a ship entered hyperspace, it entered a different dimensional space that made no physical contact with this one.
That doesn't make sense because there are hyperspace lanes that are there to go around planets and shit.
AnyOtherNamePlease - that is how hyperspace works, what we saw in the last Jedi was the ship colliding with the supremacy during the "run up" phase: before entering hyperspace (the other dimension), the ship performs a real space acceleration (we see that in the form of the ships "whizzing" in and out).
And in the theme of this video: that's What Makes doing this trick so much harder because you have to do it close enough to the enemy that you collide with them before you enter hyperspace(and pass straight through them), but not too close so you have gathered up enough.... hyperspace-ness, otherwise your simple kinetic collision will be absorbed by the Shields.
Richard Blumberg
They have to Go around the gravity wells. Get to close to a sun, big planet, or interdicter, and the gravity well pulls the ship out of hyperspace.
Richard Blumberg - planets and other large bodies generate something in Star Wars called "mass Shadows" as gravitational fields can be strong enough to exert influence in the other dimension known as hyperspace, hyperspace lanes are just well-known (and therefore safe) mapped routes.
AnyOtherNamePlease Oh, how cliche. So derivative. I mean hyperspace ramming? That trope's existed since the earliest notions of storytelling came into existence. Remember that scene in Romeo and Juliet where Mercutio is killed when tybalt crashes his space ship into his? How trite!
With all due respect, you are wrong. The largest ship the resistance had, or a paperclip: the kinetic damage alone would have been far greater than even what we saw in the movie. It probably would have taken out a small moon. And yes, a hyperdrive is expensive, but not as expensive as losing a planet to the death star. 1 frigate vs 1 deathstar = you come lightsyears ahead on a cost vs loss evaluation. I use Kyle's ""Because Science" video as the basis for my hypothesis. It was done in this movie because it looked cool. It was never done in past movies because the star wars lore had interdiction class vessals providing anti lightspeed fields specifically designed to prevent this tactic and prevent hostile ships from fleeing (their fields caused ships to instantly drop out of lightspeed). Large, expensive vessals like the deathstar & Supremacy had these systems built into them as well.
Yea,sure hyper-ramming the death star might have worked,but you know what else worked,and was cheaper? A well aimed shot by Luke Skywalker. It's all about finding the cheapest option
There are other variables to take into account such as hyperdrives probably aren't a generator you can just strap on to anything and it just launches off into hyperspace.
Also the FO didn't continue firing on the Resistance ship because it was empty and the passengers were on the transports. The FO would've just shot it down as it was turning around slowly and charging the hyperdrive.
And come on dude, its science fantasy not science fiction. The laws of physics don't apply in a universe where someone can shoot lightning from their hands or have a fight like Obi vs Ani
That Beast Named Mike
"hyperdrives probably aren't a generator you can just strap on to anything and it just launches off into hyperspace." X Wings have hyperdrives so we know that they can make them pretty small, and cheap enough to place them onto fighters.
If they can do that, then why wouldn't they have hyperspace missiles? Hyperdrives might be expensive, but not as expensive as capital ships. If you can afford to equip your standard fighters with hyperdrives then you sure as shit can afford to strap them to a missile.
actully, according to what we can see in the movie and "star wars physics" (cough cough), u need at least something one third the size/mass of the death star to completely destroy it, ramming a frigate will do a maximum damage of perhaps lucky disabling the superlazer for a few days, the only effective hyperspace weapon scenario will only be to ram into ur enemy's command bridge carrying some important officer. I don't even think killing a jedi is worth losing a bigass ship.
You guys are taking this to far, there’s a lot of things that don’t make sense in Star Wars for instance; sound in space, they are just fun movies and you don’t have to scientifically prove everything you see on screen
This video is crazy - I feel you've grasped the complete wrong end of the stick with these points.
You argue that hyperdrives are pricey, the rebellion lacks resources, and their officers realised that scrappy improvisational tactics are enough to get the job done. But hyperspace ramming IS the cheap and scrappy tactic. The perfect mix of cost-effective ingenuity. The rebellion should be in love with it.
They already have the hyperdrives. Dozens get destroyed in battle anyway. You strip out everything else that costs money. Stack in the mass - so space rocks. Easily matching something with the mass of the Raddus. Remove the pilots and just use droids, so there's no human cost. And in exchange you get something that can annihilate a Star Destroyer if it "gets lucky".
And what the heck does get lucky even mean? This seems like an absurdly simple tactic. You tell the droid to fly close to the target and press the "delete enemy fleet" button. Or maybe have the ship break in half so the tail-end hyperdrives into the front end to make the space shrapnel.
Consider also that Holdo managed this. Holdo, of all people. If someone of her competence level achieved it, then this should be a piece of cake for everybody else.
Imagine combining it with guerilla tactics. Small groups warps in, send the hyperspace rams, warps out. Space drive-by. Profit.
Nah, when the Rebellion was about to lose Yavin 4 to the Deathstar 2 they could have used transports to destroy the Deathstars laser, one ship into the dish would have crippled it. Losing a hyperdrive/ship would have been a small price to pay for all those pilots lost.
Amazing point. Thank you!
Good point.
Exactly! Also, the rebellion has hyperdrives on their x-wings, you'd think at least one of those pilots would have rammed the dish....
First of all, the Death Star was huge. Really, really huge. Therefore the laser dish was also huge, much bigger than an Imperial-class Star Destroyer so they'd need not a small amount of ships bigger than starfighters (I don't know how close you have to get for an efficient ram but bigger ships'd likely get destroyed by turbolasers before jumping).
Second of all, the Death Star laser had several reactors and just one was able to effectively destroy the mark (Jedha, Scarif). So even if you managed to get close enough to ram the dish, you'd have to destroy all of the reactors to render its laser unoperational.
The amount of ships (bigger than starfighters) you'd have to sacrifice is ludicrous.
The Death Star 2 was shielded...
By the point that it wasn't shielded, they could (and did) already easily send in smaller ships to destroy it from the inside.
1:30 Your argument feels cherry-picked and poorly supported.
EC Henry: "Hyper drives are expensive". Uses clip from Phantom Menace of Watto saying: "You might as well buy a new ship, it would be cheaper I think, eh?" (Probably in reference to acquiring a new hyperdrive for the Nubian yacht)
That comment from Watto just tells me that the hyperdrive for their specific ship is expensive. If you can buy a new ship, presumably with, a hyperdrive for less than the cost to replace the hyperdrive on their ship, that tells me the cost of a hyperdrive can range dramatically. Like a replacement Ferrari engine may cost more than the list price of a brand new Ford automobile.
1:40 "Hyperdrives aren't some cheap expendable technology"
I disagree. If you can scavenge functioning hyperdrive units, maybe even entire fully-functional starships, from junkyards, that says a lot about the availability and perceived value of that technology.
1:48 "A cash-strapped rebellion has absolutely no business destroying such a valuable resource for one kill"
How do you think the rebellion acquired many of their ships? I believe the acquisition process is "beg, borrow or steal". I point to the GR-75 transports and the Y-wing fighters
Also it's made clear that Watto is trying to squeeze as much money as possible out of Qui Gon so he's not exactly trustworthy. The issues with hyperspace ramming extend beyond just the OT and sequels where it would be used by a small rebellion (and it wasn't even small in the sequels since they're on the same side as the galactic republic and iirc Leia was involved in the government) so the argument about it being expensive is even weaker. The argument about the size of the ship is also weak since at that speed, size means nothing. He counters his own argument by mentioning the impact of the debris, since they do equal damage to the other ships.
I do think there's kind of a reason Watto sounded Italian, it's like being in the middle of nowhere and like, "We need a new transmission for this Lamborghini.'
Hyperdrive equipped ships are incredibly common in star wars. Even back water planets have tons of them visiting regularly. They seem at least as common as ocean going vessels are today.
Counterarguments. I'm going to avoid real-world physics, because Star Wars:
-Hyperdrives are costly: As costly as, say, a Death Star? Attach a hyperdrive to an asteroid; unless Star Destroyers were made on the SUPER CHEAP (which, take a look; they practically can't be), the maximum cost for a hyperdrive+asteroid can't be greater than the minimum for a hyperdrive+capital ship.
-The Raddus was a really big ship: Okay, get a really big asteroid. Problem solved.
-All of these factions were very efficient and calculating with their investments: Wait, seriously? The TWO DEATH STARS (and the Federation ship in Phantom Menace), which had hilarious video game weak spots, plus the Executor and a dozen other canon examples outside the movie, have all hilariously bad track records. If I were in charge of any of those armies, especially if I was desperate like the CIS or the Rebel Alliance in Episode V, I would shout aloud: "The best answer is often the simplest one, and that's definitely true here! Get some asteroids from Bespin; we're going nuclear!"
--Now, a brief side note: If there was a surgical strike, for example, you would definitely want smaller craft and away teams. It's why the US has SEAL Teams, for example. Star Destroyers have no place in a galaxy like this, because their goal is to destroy objects rather than pick off small targets, and neither would any fighter larger than, say, a Y-wing.
Look, I'm not saying that any of these factions were rolling with cash, but a 10:1 kill:loss value is better than any odds the CIS or Republic ever had, and potentially really good value for the Rebellion as well. The New Republic, aside from potentially ethical issues, would surely invest in something like this just in case, especially with the First Order on their heels.
Actually, depending on how seriously you take the EU, the Republic was scoring something in the range of a 20:1 kill:loss value during the Clone Wars. The Clone Troopers were very good at their jobs.
Trygve Plaustrum How would you stabilise and move the asteroid into position? Would you build a spaceship around the asteroid? Well now you've just built a spaceship. Would you just use a bigger ship to transport and fire it? Well now you have a non-standard missile which you probably don't have the weaponry to fire. And outfitting your ships with asteroid cannons is not as efficient as just designing some sort of hyperspace torpedo that works with existing hardware.
Trygve Plaustrum in one of the original star Wars , solo said something about planets and big bodies being a danger for poorly calculated hyperspace flight , he didn't mentioned other ships. I'm supposing that when you enter hyperspace you get intangible to other crafts , debris and asteroids that might be in the way. What holdo did in the movie was accelerate to close to hyperspace without actually entering it, which I think it's harder and are not a thing that the main programming of the hyperspace computers are built to do
Trygve Plaustrum Im sorry I stopped reading when you kept comparing the cost of a Death Star... the first one took almost 2 decades to build, but not the second, meaning money was the issue not building time, also... the Rebellion doesnt use the Empires resources
Go fly an asteroid! Problem solved!
Yes, it still breaks the lore. Holdo destroyed half a dozen Star detroyers and severely crippled the flagship with ONE cruiser. A full on, drawn out space battle would’ve cost way more in resources and lives since an equal number of resistance ships would likely be destroyed before that many Star destroyers were taken down.
So yeah, this breaks the lore and mechanics of Star Wars space battles since there’s no reason for it to be a non-existant maneuver up to this point.
To put it better: The US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of WWll because they knew more lives and resources would be lost on both sides in a land invasion. The big, decisive weapons were used to end the conflict and prevent more bloodshed in the broader scope.
Putting a couple cruisers on autopilot and light ramming them into an enemy fleet is no different. It greatly reduces the duration of the following battle, and therefore reduces expenses and loss of life.
Alright, so like the Star Wars film writers, it seems that you have a few gaps in your knowledge of physics.
Question: What happens if you take an object the size of a watermelon and slam it into a planet at 10% the speed of light?
Answer: You get an explosion larger than most friggin nukes!
With this in mind, you could take an object the size of a British double-decker bus, accelerate it to low fractional C, and have yourself a weapon that could easily cause an extinction level event.
Now, this isn't particularly obscure or complex information. So, the old expanded universe had an explanation for why we didn't see people using these kinds of weapons constantly. Basically, it was written that hyperspace engines didn't work near major gravity wells, like a solar system.
So, you could go over light speed to get from Star System to Star system, but you couldn't ram other ships with it, because you'd fall out of hyperspeed before you could. But, then Abrams got rid of that rule in The Force Awakens. Once he did, I knew a mess like this would be inevitable at some point.
Basically, your defense is that, since the explosion wasn't that big, it doesn't make a difference. But, that simply doesn't matter. Basic physics dictate that even a single X-wing traveling at half the speed of light should absolutely pound a planet in a Death Star like manner. Just because the writers didn't understand this, doesn't make it any less true.
This is why anyone with a good grasp on science fiction is taken back when they see this scene. They have a good grasp of the consequences. You can't have casual FTL weaponry in a setting where a barely mobile planet destroying weapon is a huge deal. They simply can't mutually co-exist without breaking the setting.
Basically, as of TLJ, any X-wing is a plausible planet buster, which kinda undermines the plot in many of the films.
This was an extremely sloppy move on the writers part, and further demonstrates why big sci-fi films need science advisors.
WolvenWeaver awesome comment here
Thanks.
I had this long response to this video all typed up then I saw your comment, and deleted it. You did a much better job explaining this than I ever could. Excellent post.
Thanks.
Anyhow, I don't want to sit and criticize the creator of this video too much, so I'm probably not going to add too much. The conclusions he comes to are understandable enough if you're only looking at the physics of this scene through a Newtonian lens, and that's the flavor of physics people tend to be most familiar with.
The problem is that a lot of sci-fi fans tend to know stuff like this. And yeah, that certainly is not the entire audience, or even most of the audience, but it is a good large portion of the long-time residents of the whole Star Wars fanbase. These are the people that tend to care the most and help form everybody else's opinions. Therefore, sloppy writing like this tends to have a big impact. No pun intended.
Additionally, if this was the only thing wrong with this film, people would've been a lot more forgiving. I myself would've chalked it up to a whoopsie and tried to ignore it. But, it's hard to ignore stuff like this when there's a lot of other problems as well. Taken together, it all seems to point to a lack of care that you wouldn't expect in a film that's intended to earn a billion dollars.
I mean, with that sort of money at stake, you'd think the studio would be hiring the best writers, bringing in lore experts, scientific advisors, the works. Instead, it appears as though they were just making things up as they were going, and that sort of thing probably just isn't going to fly anymore.
you assuming hyperdrive/warp drive does this by accelerating the object rather than somehow warping space-time. From what in understand of a star-wars hyperdrive is a spacetime warp rather than an acceleration (the people in the ship are not flattened into pulp so it cant be acceleration) so the damage is not coming from the collision of the objects but rather the edge of a not 100% perfect space-time bubble.
Exchanging corvette for capital ship would be very useful tactic, its dumb saying it is waste of resources when you spend less than enemy so this is breaking lore.
Or for example attacking important target, how many ships are lost in average SW battles for destroying something that one hyperspace engine would do cheaper, like that shield. They would have to just ram it and enter planet from any direction with escape way open. Or just shoot something out from ship when accelerating to hyperspace. Its mess now, not like ww2 style battles of Lucas. If they needed ram, they could did it in sublight speed and say that core exploded or something...
Not to mention the presumably cash-strapped rebellion puts hyperdrives on all is fighters. The "expense" shown there was the type of drive, not all drives (in fact if you convert credits to commodity prices, you'll also find that ships are pretty cheap in the star wars universe).
+admthrawnuru and only person who said that hyperdrive is expensive is flying frog scrap merchant
You contradict yourself saying that the Rebels are “crash stripped” and then “Hyperdrives aren’t cheap”. They have Hyperdrives on almost all of their ships,..
Exactly, so why waste them?
Indeed. Instead of sacrificing one x-wing, lets sacrifices a whole squadron of bombers to eliminate one Dreadnought. All those bombers and lost lives combined are way cheaper than one x-wing piloted by a droid.
Alex Ruiz
Or you, instead of loosing one x-wing/hyperdirve in a hyperspace ram could loose 40 x-wings/hyperdrives in some batshit insane trench run with a .001% chance of succeeding.
Hyperdrives still are expensive and hard to make.
Well Obviously all the money went into Poe's special X-wing, considering the bombers had 0 shields and 0 armor plating. They couldn't give that up so easily!
The ship's size wasn't important, but its mass. It was big because it needed to house a lot more personnel. You can produce smaller, yet more dense vessels purposely designed to ram.
Or just strap a few hyperdrive units onto asteroids, slam them all into your enemy's capitol buildings and shipyards, and win the war with no battles, no friendly casualties, and none of your own ships lost. Nobody would wage war any other way if this was possible.
The separatists could have used this strategy with drone ships. Instead of a bunch of fighters flying around stick a hyper drive (or partial one, since the ship never has to reach light speed) to the drone fighters and use them as swarm missiles with no loss of life.
There were some episodes in TCW where droids kamikaze'd republic ship's and it did serious damage... Image how it would go if they were going FTL xD
1:30 Hyperdrives are expensive. No they are not, they may be for someone like watto but not for like an organized rebellion or someone on the core worlds, almost all ships have them.
2:48 ''is more usefull as a functional ship'' can you tell me how exactly, because it could not take out all those ships with fire power....
2:56 ''You should not use it because its dangers to your own ships and polutes space''.
1. Why send other ships if 1 can blow up the whole fleet. and we clearly see it only moveing 1 direction.?
2. Like normal battles don't pollute space like are you even trying to think reasonably at this point?
Actually yes it is expensive for the rebellion. They have a barely a fleet.
Haha dreman999 you only answered 1/4 of his comment and you didn't even take the time to think... Either you confuse the rebellion and the resistance (he was talking about the rebellion which was organised), or you just chose to forgot return of the jedi 3rd act.
So what you said to try to defend this stupid video's arguments is wrong making your answer go from 1/4 of a valid defense to 0/4
dreaman999 if your talking about the resistance that is true but than an other problem arises, why is the resistance so small while being backed by republic. And why is the first order so big, it doesnt make sense. The orignal plan for the first order was that they where ment to be like a small group of nazis that escaped to argentina but now there suddenly hugh and get rescourses from who know where ????
Brave Soldi3r 1. The resistance is not being back by the republic.
2. The first order is not big. Just more advance.
3.Look at return of the jedi. All those ships are the entire fleet. The rebellion did not get large time after Palpatine died.
The rebel fleet was small at the time of the death star. So small they need to depend of fighters to dost of the heavy lifting. In new hope they were divided in cell working independently.
They had to take take ship made for non military use and convert them b3 able to fight. The only ship they made with their own funds were b wings, x wings, and a wings.
The x wing were all already made for the clone war. B wings were too expensive to mass produce. And a wing were stuck in development hell and even then only the best pilots could fly them.
Sorry but the rebellion had super low funded.
Rabbox no . I did not. Look at return of the jedi. All those ships are the entire fleet. The rebellion did not get large time after Palpatine died.
The rebel fleet was small at the time of the death star. So small they need to depend of fighters to dost of the heavy lifting. In new hope they were divided in cell working independently.
They had to take take ship made for non military use and convert them b3 able to fight. The only ship they made with their own funds were b wings, x wings, and a wings.
The x wing were all already made for the clone war. B wings were too expensive to mass produce. And a wing were stuck in development hell and even then only the best pilots could fly them.
Sorry but the rebellion had super low funded.
The nerdist show "Because Science" has already addressed this. And the consensus is that impacting anything at super luminal speeds with any manner of mass would be catastrophic. The only reason the Supremacy didn't convert into excited particles and photons is because the movie necessitated it. But in reality the energies involved were so great that they rival those found in super colliders.
And if that were the case the ship would not have interacted with the Supremacy at all, yet it did. Whatever their explanation of hyperspace is, what the movie shows, and what is now canon, is that the ship accelerates to super luminal velocity at least partially in it's transition. Thus, the impact was under sold.
I think it also has to do with that Star Wars uses advanced materials and force fields in the construction of their ships. This is a civilization that can build cities the size of Earth and generate more power than all the stars in the Milky Way galaxy combined.
Even if you built things out of solid neutronium (The stuff neutron stars are made of, In which case your own structure would crush you with it's own gravity.) if you strike it with super luminal anything, it will vaporize. writers and sci fi fans underestimate what kinds of energies are involved in a faster than light object. It could be made of icecream and still crack a planet.
Yes, but again, Star Wars seems capable of some fantastic feats when it comes to structual integrity, force fields, shields and power generation. Having the technology to survive a relativistic impact is no more fantastic than harvesting the power equivalent of quasars and hypernovae.
what? Yes it is much more fantastic.
It does break canon, because here’s how the Clone Wars would go down: droids ramming every Republic ship in sight.
The Separatists would waste money? The Phantom Menace established that hyperdrives aren't cheap.
@@SeanWheeler100 The longer the war goes on the more ships and droids get destroyed. What is going to cost more in the end? Its not like the republic can quickly replace all the clones that they would lose in every attack.
@@fallencrow6718 Of course the Republic couldn't quickly replace all the clones because Jango Fett is dead, the Kaminoans have a limited supply of his DNA. And clones take a decade to grow. And of course the droids and ships would get destroyed throughout the war, so they would not want to risk them on suicide attacks that have one-in-a-million chances.
@@SeanWheeler100 the separatists strategy was to literally swarm the enemy with millions of gun robots they definitely have money to burn
Still a plothole. Every Rebel ship that was about to be destroyed should have done this as a "last effort", and as it seems from the movie, it just needs mass, and not even a fully functioning hyperdrive, it just needs to accelerate to close light speed. I think the rebels would certainly sacrifice any large ship to take out at least seven Star Destroyers.
ships get disabled most of the time before they blow up, so even if they wanted, they would't be able to.
If they knew they were losing the fight but not yet quite disabled, they still could have hyper jumped and rammed.
hyperdrives need chargeup, takes too long.
And do you think if the ships has planty of damage, will it always be safe to hyper jump?
Holdo just needed to flick a switch...
Wait isn’t hyper space like going in another demension so that stratified isn’t possible
I'm pretty sure that's what people thought it was, I don't recall if that was ever properly confirmed or denied.
The only instance of "ramming" through hyperspace I'd ever seen outside of TLJ was a single mission of Battlefront 2 where a Rebel Mon-Cal cruiser tries to jump to hyperspace while your Star Destroyer is blocking it's path, what the results of that would've been you never see because if you lose the objective to destroy their engines you reload a checkpoint and if you succeed you blew up their engines and they can't jump.
@@QuestionableObject pretty sure there was a battlecruiser that fractured a planet in the clone wars. It was a praetor class and the planet was where the malevolence was built. Can't remember the names.
A body with a Large enough gravity (for example a star) can pull ships out of hyperspace. In this particular situation, I think the radius didnt enter hyperspace yet. It was speeding up, but never achieved full speed.
is not teleportation, firt you need to move, you must be in real space at least for a moment befor go into hyperspace
You have to jump into hyperspace. This appears to be a process of a jump that didnt make it into hyperspace but ran into something instead.
X Wings have hyper drives and hundreds of them go down in every movie. Use JUST ONE and send it down the barrel of the Death Star right to the core.
at least based on normal starwars being accrate with hyperdrive is very hard. They alwasy come out of hyperdrive well above plannets they dont want to risk appearing in solid rock.
matthaus wollard This is because they're aiming at targets that are thousands of light years away. It's a bit different if you're aiming at a target that's merely a couple million kilometers away. Hyperdrives are extremely accurate, in fact.
There's "extremely accurate", and then there's "can score a direct hit on a two-meter-wide target (that you can't see) from kilometers away." Even using the Force isn't going to get you that close.
a. the core was not "two-meter-wide" b. The shrapnel (as seen in this video) create a shotgun effect which makes it much easier to hit. My main beef would be if it has enough penetrating power though. After all the Death star was VERY big.
When on both Death stars the shields were down I wouldn't have wasted that much personnel, resources, and equipment. I would have loaded the biggest ship I got with a bunch of antimatter nukes and ram both at lightspeed especially knowing that the emperor was on board
when you go into hyperspace you literally enter a new dimension it is impossible to hit anything and when you fly close to a planet the gravitational pull stops you from moving when you use intradictors they creat an artificial gravity field that’s how the work.
@@dylandelaney6073 then why did she pull it off against Snoke super destroyer literally eyeballing the distance and timing
A golfball at the speed of light would have enough power to destroy the deathstar.
No it wouldn't. Assuming a 45 gram golf ball it would end up with around 4000 Terajoules of kinetic energy. That's about as much as the US' B83 nuke or 40-50 times less than the Tsar bomba, the most powerful nuke ever tested.
I don't think a single B83 would be enough to destroy the death star.
Now hyperdrives in the SW universe can go beyond the speed of light and that could change things. But at 1c there's just not enough kinetic energy from such a small object.
@@Frikgeek Wrong. As an object accelerates closer to the speed of light, its kinetic energy tends towards infinity. This is why no object with mass can reach the speed of light, as it requires an infinite amount of energy to do so. If an object with any mass was at the actual speed of light, the energy released upon impact would be enough to break physics. It would overwhelm the strong nuclear force and electromagnetic force by an infinite order of magnitudes.
Frikgeek whats you calculation, because its wrong
Frikgeek dude anything with mass that can go lightspeed is assumed to have infinite energy
That's just 10th grade physics.
@@Frikgeek Mass approaches infinity as speed approaches light. This is defined in E=MC^2 taking as E/C^2=M, where the mass increases the higher the energy (speed is). It's important to remember this is an abstracted factor, so as it gains energy the denominator effectively begins to approach 0, making the mass infinite. This is why something can't actually travel faster than light, it requires so much energy and causes such a gravitational well that it collapses into an infinitesimal black hole.
You could just put a hyperdrive on an asteroid and have that fly into it. In the Phantom Menace, it was more the type of hyperdrive then the it being a drive.
Well in the force awakens, you had to ship use its hyperdrive to get onto a planet even though the planet has of strong gravity well. Now we have in the Last Jedi we have a ship taking out other ships using hyperdrive. It would feel like this should be far more common in the Star Wars universe.
>In the Phantom Menace, it was more the type of hyperdrive then the it being a drive.
That, and George Lucas is a car guy.
With your car, if your engine or transmission (or God forbid, *both*) needs to be replaced, and you don't have insurance or a warranty, most mechanics will tell you that it would be cheaper to buy a used car in better condition than it would be to buy new parts and pay to have them installed.
ebiljebus
Pretty much, it's not the type of part, it's the part. A Ferrari engine is more expensive to get than a brand new Honda civic. - at least that's my understanding.
Yup. That hyperdrive was the Naboo's royal transport after all, probably some top shelf shit.
Alright I hear your side. But what about when dealing with Death Stars. Logically nothing can stop a Hyper-speed jump attack (Heck it tore through the Supremacy, so why not have one fighter hit the Death Star's weakness at those speeds, instead of sending your entire army and losing most of them. I get the tactic can't be used a lot. But what if you need to take down a high value target. Like Vader or The Emperor, why wouldn't you use it then. When they stole the plans for the Death Star, they knew which ship Vader was still on, they could have killed Vader if they used the tactic.
The Death Star had enough mass to create its own mass shadow, and it was heavily armored against capital ship bombardment. Going to hyperspace while inside a gravity well is risky at best, and likely to rip your ship apart before it gets there at the worst.
@J17
They didn't seem to have a problem hyper-spacing out of a gravity well in rogue one.
J17 but you still take out the most powerful weapon the galaxy's ever seen for the price of one ship.
The Death Star's shields were absurdly strong. Strong enough that shooting it was completely out of the question. And the size of that thing was colossal. Sure, if you fired one of your capital ships at the Death Star, you might do some serious damage to its surface structure, and maybe even a bit of interior damage. Kill a bunch of staff. But you're not going to cause critical damage with it. You're not going to cripple the space station or take down its main gun doing that, and again, that's assuming your ship doesn't just explode against the Death Star's shields. Remember during the Battle of Endor, the Rebellion couldn't even get CLOSE to the Death Star until they took down its shields. A hyperspeed attack would just result in the unfortunate ship exploding against its shields.
As for hitting the Death Star's weak point.... what, you mean the exhaust port? All you'd do is blow up the port itself, it's extremely unlikely the ship would actually penetrate through the Death Star far enough to blow up the reactor. It'd make it about a hundred meters in, tops, and leave a giant pile of wreckage blocking it. Which sure, could be a problem, but not necessarily one that'd take out the station.
The Death Star's exhaust port was a weakness because it gave access to the reactor for an explosive, one that needed to cause a chain reaction with the main reactor itself. It's unlikely a ship could have done that, without even considering the difficulty of getting a fighter aimed at the proper point (it's a zone about 1m in diameter iirc).
"The Raddus was huge and didn't even utterly destroy the Supremacy, so why bother?"
A single heavy cruiser took out the flagship, and all its escorts (which weren't even protecting the flag like they should have, which is a problem common to all of Rian's blunders with space battles), crippling them even if not entirely destroying them. Hyperspace ramming, as we are shown on-screen, has an incredibly high effective force multiplier factor (1 heavy cruiser to cripple 1 supercarrier plus 8 heavy cruisers). It is, empirically, better to have use the bombers in the first battle of the movie to use their hyperdrives to attempt this to at least damage weapons on the dreadnought than to attempt their bombing, considering this incredibly high force multiplier factor.
This is something, that, just by the numbers, outweighs almost all other tactics shown. There would be no fleet battles, no formations, if hyperspace ramming didn't break the lore.
when you enter hyperspace travel you literally cant hit anything not even other ships you enter a different dimension while traveling and you get stopped by gravitational pulls like from intradictors or planets.
@@dylandelaney6073 maybe it use to, but thats demonstrably not what happened in the last jedi.
@@dylandelaney6073 Either the "Holdo Maneuver" (🤢) works or it doesn't work you can't just claim both.
@@AnonD38 I didn’t
@@dylandelaney6073 So you’re saying that Episode 8 shenanigans shouldn’t have been possible?
1:00 The primary target was mauled beyond the point where building a new starship is cheaper than repairing existing one. Even if it wasn't the Raddis tore almost in half (as in, nearly hit it in the middle) a starship that was13 km long, 60 wide and 3 tall. Merely cutting it in half would pay off Raddis.
-shooting a hyperspace missile at the death star would be much cheaper than using a raddis against supremacy. I hope you DO remember what shrapnell did to the fleet, do you? Now imagine all of that scaled down a little and directed from the surface of a deathstar towards it's core. If everytime Empire employed deathstar rebels would use single missile imperium would fuck it's own budget.
- If rebels had those missiles carried by relatively cheap upshielded and uparmored transporters the Empire would face a lot of insubordination in their Navy. No sane captain would fly towards a ship that can pretty much obliterate a fleet with a salvo for fraction of it's cost. It is especially effective if we consider how much it would cost rebel alliance to fight in a brawl with a fucking Navy.
1:26 Small craft and improvisational tactics were usually enough? One of those clips you have shown was battle in Rouge One where we see that a few Y-wings can without any problem take out a star destroyer down (and that is pretty much the only instance of that happening). Those crafts were part of a much larger force and we have to consider losses that occured to allow such a shot. The other is lukes very fucking impressive force-aided shot after loosing an entire wing of well trained starfighter pilots and every one of their star fighters had a hyperdrive. Tell me, how are those two supposed to be an argument against hyperspace missiles??
1:48 Still, sending five x-wing sized hyperspace missiles without many systems needed for the pilot at the deathstar would be much cheaper than what actually happened. Hell, you dont need highest class. Just take the class 6, 12 or sth.
3:44 Why THIS wasn't used more? It's the only instance we see that shit.
you should also remember all relevant characters survived and ship was cut in half but both sides were mostly intact after the crash indicating it wasn't that devastating damage. so death star would be pretty much intact.
shooting missile don't make sense as it will explode right during the contact and death star has strong armor.
same goes for small ships as it will explode during contact and materials would burn up quickly before they can do any real damage.
also lukes shot was one in a million and it is clearly shown computer cannot calculate it down to that precision so guided missile is not going to be of any help.
also speaking of lore breaking crashes, did you see in ROTJ a small ship crashes into the bridge and how it takes down entire destroyer which then takes out another destroyer? star wars always had lore breaking stuff.
and lets say rebel did use hyperspace ramming, empire/writers would just come up with tech to mitigate that. just like how there are people who can resist the mind tricks. so it really doesn't break anything at all.
@@Bothandle70
Novelisation stated that ship is beyond repair. And Raddis paid itself back. Additionally it was destroyed in a cone. The deatshstar would look like a head shot with a 12 gauge slug.
No, it will not. We are not talking about classical missiles carrying explosive warheads. We are talking starfightersized pieces of metal slung at relativistic velocity. We have seen the effects of something like that. Deathstar's armor will not protect against it. even if we assume that this missile's shrapnell would not penetrate all the way through it would turn insides of a deathstar into a mush. In a cone of course.
RELATIVISTIC SPEED. A pin at relativistic speed would have KE comparable to little boy. Now imagine a few tons of metal having the same speed. It will be more than a few million times more KE. And with what happened to the fleet...
And how your remark about Luke connects to anything i said?
That didn't happen. It was SSD. The shields were down and something was wrong with point defence. The fighter screen did it's job but there happened an accident. The pilot of A-wing lost ability to controll his craft and hit the bridge. The SSD unluckilly didn't have seccondary bridge so it was drawn by Deathstars gravity well. Those two you speak about were in Rouge One but that is entirely different story.
If they would come up with it THAN it would not break the lore. And the people resisting mind tricks was a thing from almost beginning as it was revealed organically so your comparison is a bullshit..
Oh, wait. The nineth one said that Holdo maneouvre is one in a million. Talk about bad odds. It created many more problems with a plot.
What I'm trying to say is, if people use it one time, others would come up with tech to counter it. That's how story telling works. If there is an unfair power writers will even the playing ground. Another example: death star is unfair power so writers will put weakness in it so that heroes can succeed. Just like my example of jedi mind trick. Same goes for hyper speed ramming. It's storytelling 101. So even if someone did use hyper speed ram 1000 years ago, writers will disable that power as it gets in the way of storytelling. Which means it won't break rest of the stories. Getting technical is useless. In the same way there are techs for hyperspace tracking or pulling the ships out of hyperspace, there would be tech against hyperspace ramming.
Another example of even playing ground: Vader is super powerful so writers put weaknesses in him that he is Luke's father.
@@Bothandle70
But it was not done. If it was done you would have basis to say that.
Deathstar was done that way. Hyperspace ramming wasn't.
Jedi mindtrick was done that way. Hyperspace ramming wasn't.
You would have a case if it was done. As it was not you do not have any. Stop writing lore for the creators. It will still be only head canon.
Are you FUCKING kidding me? You call important plot point a weakness? How did it weaken Vader? It was plotpoint and character development. Stop talking bullshit.
@@kronos661
exactly. it wasn't used before so it doesn't break lore. if it was used before and it didn't work then you could say it breaks the lore.
relax, i'm not saying vader is weak but on the contrary. vader was too strong for luke to beat wthout going dark. what i'm saying is, him being father of luke weakend vader looking from the point of view of bad guys. and luke used that weakness to defeat emperor.
This explaination makes no sense what so ever: Ekin=0.5*m*v^2, basically any size ship can inflict a massive amount of damage, that Raddus was probably the cost of 100s of X-wings launch those at the Death Star and it would have been destroyed with the cost of 1 capital ship, besides we know that droids can do the hyperspace jumps and the necessary calcutions already, accuraccy wouldnt be an issue nor would loss of life be ...
Aditionally you only need the hyperdrive some hunk of metal and a droid to make these weapons, no need to actually sacrifice a whole fighter, justtake out the hyperspace drive and use the extra power and decreased mass to outperform any other starfighter.
Edit: if the destruction is caused by the transition into hyperspace then the thing you need is not a huge ship you need a equvilant hyperdrive to perform the same thing, then the mass of the ship will have little influence on the outcome.
Conclusion: YES IT FUCKING BREAKES ALL THE LORE
I mean its star wars.... I never really take star wars seriously or look at things too serious because that would ruin my childhood
You understand that he ship never entered hyperspace, it was doing it’s run up. So the mass would matter.
Your kinetic energy formula doesn't apply to relativistic speeds. Look up "Relativistic kinetic kill vehicle".
John Christiansen Well, his point is even stronger if you consider relativistic speeds.
John Christiansen i know, it shows less energy than the full when consudering relativistic velocities, but it doesnt hurt my point
It kinda breaks logic of the universe because a small to medium sized ship with a hyperspace drive provably costs infinitely less then a giant capital ship or even a frigate. Hell you don't even need a fully functional ship for that. And as we all can clearly see a such kamikaze attack absolutely shreds big ships. You can't even defend yourself from something like that.
By this point i'm wondering how come capital ships didn't become obsolete in the star wars universe, just like capital ships in our world? Besides if you can hurl giant ships through hyperspace, how come nobody created a mass driver canon, that hurls big chunks of metal to wreak big ship?
Actually, you do need a fully functional ship. Since you would need a power source, hyperdrive, shields, sublight drives, navigation, sensors, etc. And you can defend against it as they can detect the ships coming and charging their hyperdrive long before they do so. Hux had the opportunity to stop the Raddus but ignored it because he was so certain it was a distraction. And how would a mass driver be in anyway effective in battle?
Christopher Hopp, yeah but you don't need a fully decked out ship. No need for weapons, life support (you can use droids as pilots) shields are optional. As for mass drivers, i'm not well versed in sci-fi tech, but i meant hyperdrive torpedoes. Big chunks of steel with a small reactor, targeting computer and a cheap hyperdrive. Of course kamikaze ships and hyperdrive torpedoes are not cheap, but if they can bring down a fucking stardestroyer, then i think they are worth the investment. As for defending agains this things, well yeah, you can shoot them down if you can detect them. If rebels are smart, they can use a variety of underhanded tactics such as disguising kamikaze ships as trade and civilian ships.
Suggesting that a disguised kamikaze ship would get anywhere near a star destroyer, let alone begin charging its hyperdrive, before being destroyed. The Empire was willing to destroy traders just for being in the way. And one interdictor would make any hyperdrive torpedoes useless.
You can if you have your cannons aimed at the ship.
Константин Панфилов - I don't think gravity well generators are canon any longer. TFA showed us that you can basically land a ship from hyperdrive on top of a planet.
They came up with the whole "you're just traveling in a separate space" precisely because of the issues related with this sort of thing.
If it is possible to impart crazy kinetic energy to a vessel via lightspeed travel then you can just create a hyperspace cannon that annihilates anything you want. It doesn't matter what specific components are required, if going lightspeed makes you hit stuff really hard then you can directly turn that into a weapon.
It would change the entire paradigm of space combat permanently and star wars wouldn't look the way it does.
A decent writer would've realized this issue, but this is the sequel trilogy we're talking about.
Fans notice it immediately because it directly clashes with their suspension of disbelief. It FEELS wrong, because it is.
And that's your opinion. You can't speak for everyone else. I think that that Hyperspace ram was necessary and it is possible for a ship of that size. Like EC Henry said, to claim that you could use hyperspace missiles against the Death Star is like saying that the United States should wipe out every enemy country with a nuke.
Is it a humane solution? No. Do people like the idea of nuking other people? Only the crazy ones. But the Resistance was in a desperate position. Everyone just hates on this scene because they've never seen it before and they hate Disney because it's new.
How would a hyperspace cannon even work???
@@nickter745thebold8 If you can ram a ship this way, I can build a cheaper ship. I can make it crewless, i can make it more durable for impact so it really rips into the target, hell I can design cheaper shield generators that burn out and exhaust their entire power supply in a fraction of a second, which wont matter because I am TRYING to shred the ship. What I have just described is a missile. Do you honestly mean to tell me you cannot see the very obvious logical consequences of this maneuver even being possible? If you can impart kinetic energy to an object via warp travel for a ship, I can do it for a projectile and shred any ship you have. Hell, you cant even predict where warping ships will pass unless you see their departure vector, this is something that comes up even within the sequel trilogy! It would be a completely unpredictable, unstoppable surprise attack. It'd break the entire space warfare balance of power completely.
As for your argument for ethics, not only are none of the other plans for destroying the death star any less brutal to its crew, but the death star itself is a weapon of mass destructions of unparalleled scale. Its not only ethically justified, its arguably your ethical DUTY you destroy it at just about any cost.
This is not about my opinion, this is about the logical consequences of the rules they themselves set up. Please present me a single actual reason why I cannot make hyperspace missiles using the exact same principles used in the Holdo maneuver.
@@writterthecritter8791 Basically design a cheaper ship. Think a thick metal rod, something extremely durable. Strap a warp drive on it. Maybe shove a shield generator thatll only last that one trip and impact, cut costs in every way. Aim it at the target, let it rip. There's very little you can do to avoid this sort of exploitation of this phenomenon, because for the holdo maneuver to work the same rules have to apply. Either warpspeed makes you actually go physically faster (and thus it can be used as a weapon) or it gives you a shorter "path" to travel at whatever speed you were already going at, which means any impact is equivalent to however hard your ship would hit in a normal collision.
@@Dewkeeper well that assumes that you can get the same amount of damage with any ship big or small and that you could design a ship as big as the radius but cheaper. To me this makes no sense you can’t just design a missile with a hyperdrive and expect similar results to the holdo maneuver. I just can’t even imagine how that would work it is just logically impossible.
“Lucky with the shrapnel...” but you’re saying a standard MC80 ramming the Deathstar wouldn’t create enough hyper shrapnel to utterly annihilate the innards of said battle station? You make NO logical sense. The cost of ONE CRUISER could have saved half a dozen cruisers and their crews at Endor!
The death star has a shield and was the size of a small moon. Best they could have done was maybe exiting hyperdrive within it, but they probably have countermeasures. But the idea of exiting hyperdrive close to something is more a sin of Force Awakens.
@@GrandHighGamer TFA pretty much clears that up because shields don't stop things moving in hyperspace so entering hyperspace while pointing toward the Death Star is still a viable concept thanks to the Holdon'tgiveadamn maneuver. Again, even a fighter going at hyperspeed pointed toward the reactor would do the thing in because of all the shrapnel it would generate. It would be well worth the sacrifice of a skeleton crew aboard a heavy freighter or even a MC80 Cruiser to take out a planet destroying weapon. Hell, why not just design hyperspace weapons that were piloted by droid brains (Clone Wars) that could just take a giant warhead into hyperspace toward a target?
@@sandorsbox
It didn't occured to you that the imperial fleet was Smart enough to bring interdictors?
The rebel fleet didn't blast hyperspace out of there to escape the trap.
Le Silverhand considering that the rebel fleet was ready to retreat after Ackbar realized that the shields were still up, then of course not. And that still doesn’t explain why you wouldn’t try this tactic why not fly the stolen shuttle directly through the Deathstar? Why not use small ships by the score which could outmaneuver an interdictor? Why not target and destroy the interdictors and then hyperspace ram the Deathstar? The rebels in Rebels take them Int all the time. It also doesn’t explain why the First Order wouldn’t be prepared for this if it was such plausible thing to do. Hyperspace ramming is a HUGE PLOT HOLE!
@@sandorsbox the stolen Shuttle? Seriously, like it would do anything.
And the interdictors were very well protected, there is no way the swarn of tie fighters and intercepters would have let the Y-wing anywhere near them.
If there were no interdictor, why didn't blast out of there to retreat?
you also forget that interdictor ships are a thing ships purpose built to stop ships from entering hyperspace
Exile Studios - indeed this attack would be completely nullified by a single interdictor in a fleet.
Somewhat relevant idea: does the death star generate enough of a gravitational field to drop ships out of hyperspace similar to a planet?
That ship appears to have been invented for Star Wars Rebles, which while it is considered cannon, it has never been alluded to on screen outside of a few random ships and a droid.
+Dreadnought AI no because as we see in Rogue one the rebels escape even when its nearby
Dreadnought AI I highly doubt it does naturally. The DS is smaller then an average moon, so it would seem odd that it has a comparable gravity to a planet. Its possible there were interdictor wells on the DS, but even that seems a little odd, and there are no interdictor domes on the surface.
MasterM - the domes could easily be buried underneath the surface (close to it though).
How many people died attacking the shield generator in VI and the ... Achilles Port, or whatever, in VII? How many ships were destroyed? Couldn't both have been taken out with ease with a rebel-rigged hyperspace missile?
Exactly. Yet another hole in the sinking star wars boat.
What's even worse is that Starkiller Base's shields can only be pierced by craft flying at *lightspeed.*
Yep.
Totally not a plot hole.
Seriously though, why hasn't someone build the SW equivalent of a railgun, but with ultra-long range attacking capabilities and lightspeed missiles? Just toss in a couple turbolasers and cover up the exhaust ports or whatever the hell weak point it might have, then you pretty much win. Hell, if some made sacrifices, the Rebels could have destroyed the Emperor on Coruscant if they did that. They could have defended Hoth. They could have destroyed the Death Star as soon as it was in range of Yavin 4. They could have destroyed literally any Imperial resistance.
They did. It was called the Galaxy Gun and it was among the Empire's more practical superweapons.
And here the Raddus was clearly on it's acceleration prior to transition. Same idea only difference is instead of being hit by something decelerating from hyperspace, the Supremacy was hit by an accelerating ship
Good point about polluting space with hyper-relativistic debris being a really, really bad idea.
Though the Holdo maneuver may be a case of hitting something during the massive acceleration before leaving realspace, The High Republic novels actually sort of touch on this idea from a different angle.
A collision that occurred *in* hyperspace resulted in a shotgun of debris gradually re-entering realspace hundreds of parsecs away, piece-by-piece, at unpredictable locations. And even with it traveling at a fraction of lightspeed, it was a multi-system-destroying disaster. Entire worlds in the line of fire had to be evacuated, and it took dozens of Jedi and thousands of spacers working together to even *try* to stop or redirect a fraction of the debris.
Basically, don’t fuck with hyperspace as a weapon. It’s unpredictable and basically turns into a WMD that you cannot reliably aim.
It might be a while, but I anticipate that the Holdo maneuver probably had collateral damage, ruining someone’s day months or even years later. Cue Mass Effect opining on “Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest sonafabitch in space.”
This entire comments section seems needlessly hostile. There’s already a pretty satisfactory reading of canon material that can help with suspension of disbelief.
I actually had a thought about this while reading the comments. So one explanation of hyperspace is that it’s a type of dimension where the years it would take to travel between planets only takes a few minutes. Therefore if Holdo just jumped the Raddus into hyperspace it wouldn’t even impact any First Order ships (to my understanding at least). So what if Holdo was attempting one of Grand Admiral Thrawn’s favorite tactics: the precision hyperspace jump (the idea is basically jumping through hyperspace to a precise location to bypass enemy blockades or flank enemy ships). Holdo might have been trying to jump over so the First Order wouldn’t realize that she was attempting a ramming maneuver, but instead of decelerating in front of the supremacy, she decelerated the Raddus almost inside the supremacy which caused the explosion and massive shrapnel cloud. This would also explain why the maneuver was so uncommon since precision hyperspace jumps required extreme still to begin with, so something like this would require near god-like levels of skill and/or luck (which was probably the case for Holdo) to be even near as effective as it was in The Last Jedi. It also explains why hyperspace missiles aren’t a thing, since Star Wars AI computers might not be able to preform calculations that precise (keep in mind hyperspace jumps usually require people and/or droids to operate). Also who said hyperspace missiles might not actually exist if I’m wrong? They just wouldn’t be preferred since some steal-able missiles would be way more vulnerable to theft by the rebels or criminals than massive Star Destroyers and space stations. I might have gotten the facts wrong, so if you have another idea please let me know.
Losing 100 ships, so that 1 can bring down 3 star destroyers is genius.
Lose 1 ship so that you can destroy 16 star destroyers and a death star sized capital ship is foolish.
Yes excellent planning and tactics admiral. Consider no one convinced.
they got lucky, didn't you watch the video?
The ship needs to be huge silly
I LiKe PiGeoNs The ramming ship wouldn’t need to be nearly as big as the Raddus to take down a Star Destroyer, since SD’s are much smaller than the Supremacy.
@@Denominov good luck having a character put the coordinates down to hit the target that is much smaller than the supremacy, needing to be precise
I LiKe PiGeoNs Star destroyers are mostly stationary in battle, the coordinates wouldn’t be that hard to input.
Just my 2 cents on a long-running debate. 2 potential explanations come to mind for me. 1. Shielding and 2. Timing.
1. I think it's safe to assume that the First Order's ships shields were down at the time of Holdo's maneuver. They likely had as much power as possible diverted to engines and weapons in order to keep pressure on the Resistance fleet running away from them. Now there are clearly different kinds of shielding in Star Wars Lore, but the nature of shielding and hyperspace could be a helpful partial explanation for why this maneuver worked for Holdo, but would not work in a typical battle scenario where everyone has their shields up.
2. Timing. If we are to assume that entering Hyperspace causes a rip in space-time, then perhaps it was this ripping that caused the devastation we saw. Meaning if she was a fraction of a second too early or too late, she'd either harmlessly enter hyperspace before contact with the fleet, or she would have only succeeded in destroying her own ship and caused much less damage to Snoke's flagship and the fleet. We potentially see an example of the latter in Rogue One when Vader's ship interrupts the Rebel Fleet fleeing from Scariff, and one of their cruisers is crushed by his Star Destroyer while getting ready to make the jump to lightspeed. If Vader had entered the battle a fraction of a second later, perhaps his ship would have been destroyed in much the same way?
These are just 2 thoughts that come to my mind, neither is perfect, but either or both could help explain what we saw in The Last Jedi. Being that TLJ is canon, we can only treat what what happened as an observation and use what we know about the Star Wars Universe to try and theorize as to why we observed what we did.
Damn good points. But the shielding has one hole. Remeber how Han jumped to Starkiller? Even harder timing i know, but inuniverse posible.
The reason why people say that this cene would break the lore is because they say that if that worked people would always use hyperspace ramming, but they neglect the fact that the Raddus was a huge ship and that it didn't even blow up its target. I see people saying that they would use fighters/torpedoes in hyperspace which doesn't make any sense as those objects are billions of times smaller than the Raddus and comparing the 2 is like comparing the effectiveness of a needle to the one of an armor piercing shell as a bullet. I see people saying that they could use asteroids, but if 1 huge ship wasn't even able to blow up another huge (but still, way smaller than the Death Star) ship, in order to damage the Death Star you'd probably need an asteroid hundreds of km in diameter, bigger than any ship ever built by the Rebels. We don't even know if the Rebels would have the tech so much such massive objects in hyperspace. Even if they did, losing a bunch of fighters like they did in A New Hope is certainly cheaper than making a huge asteroid move through different dimensions
@@Marco-zt2jj hundreds of kilometers in diameter? Both Death Stars were under 200 Kilometers in diameter.
And compare the First Orders formation in TLJ. The debris from the Supremecy destroyed all the smaller Resurgents that were stationed behind it. Look at other space battles in Star Wars. In what other battle are they formed like that, and are there ships big enough to cause a shotgun effect. Holdo got lucky that the First Order had such a shit formation. The only lorebreaking thing here is that Holdo could enter hyperspace with a gravitywell in the way.
@@pokka4369 That's hardly the first time someone's entered hyperspace within a gravity well.
I think one of the reasons the Empire or TFO didn't install HDs on the TIE fighters is to keep the pilots from defecting, the price was a secondary thought
Logical but I think the official explanation is the price factor.
But I like the dependence explanation better you either go back to the station/destroyer or you die, also there is no shield because they want the pilots to be agressive and get the job done fast.
they already put bombs in the wings as "anti-theft coutermeasures" (according to rebels) so them not having a hyperdrive is because it ran on solar power (wings were solar panels) and it didn't generate enough energy for a hyperdrive
The TIE SF had shields and a hyperdrive.
You are wrong dude. Why not sacrifice the other two ships the resistance lost to lack of fuel by hyper driving them into star destroyers? This whole hyperspace kamakazie thing was pulled out of the writers ass for one specific instance ONLY and absolutely changes every past battle if it was possible.
Stop using your brain, it doesn't work.
FabledSomething Stop using your brain, it doesn't work.
Because they were out of fuel...
HyperonPrime well this has been used such as in Star Wars rebels season 4 i forget what episode but Hera uses it not to the full extent of destroying a star destroyer but it’s close enough
Mitchmat518 but wasn't holdo's ship out of fuel?
And if you say she had a bit of fuel left for the lightspeed ram, why couldn't the other ships ram the first order's ships just before they ran out of fuel?
It wasn’t until this whole “controversy” that I discovered that hyperspace was another dimension. This whole time I thought they were just moving fast
The reason why it's rare is probably because you have to hit the target before going into hyperspeed. Because if hyperspeed is its own dimension, you have to work your way up to that speed right? So you have to make sure you're close enough to hit it before turning into a mass shadow.
It's literally called lightspeed in the OT. The whole 'other dimension' thing was added in the extended universe. Fun fact: Force healing was also part of the extended universe, and also a key part of the video games. Fans love to cherry pick what can and can't be considered canon in the Star Wars franchise, even if it wrecks their other arguments.
@@Crystan the force healing thing is a problem because of the scale. Rey was healing at a visible speed and bringing people back from the brink of death effortlessly. Like when she healed Kylo.
This is OP as hell as force healing now puts everything from before into a new perspective. Why didn't Anakin try learning that ability? Why didn't Obi-Wan use it on Qui-Gon? Force healing was originally far weaker and less effective than Bacta. It was exhausting to use and was most powerful/effective through self-indused healing trances. But even then, serious injuries would take a significant amount of time to heal. Broken bones for example could take weeks to heal that way wheres you could heal them in a couple days via bacta.
The only instance in the old EU where we saw force healing being used on the same scale as Rey was Cade Skywalker in the Legacy comics and there the story went out of its way to explain why and how he could use such a OP ability. In short, he invented a whole new healing ability more akin to micro surgery than traditional Force Healing which simply encouraged your body to heal faster.
With Rey however, it was made out to be normal Force Healing. Which begs the question why no other Jedi used this ability before?
@@corruptangel6793 It's a pretty simple explanation, the technique was ancient and not passed down through the centuries.
@@nameynamename3758 if it was in the books she got in TLJ, Yoda would have known about it which means you'd think he would have taught it to the rest of the Jedi. Remember, TLJ shows that Yoda already read those books.
In star wars battlefront 2 (2005) there's a reference in the campaign to this. You have to destroy a transport ship before it warps through the fleet. Thought that was interesting when I replayed it recently.
Crypto Man I thought I was the only one who remembered that mission. Glad someone else does
Ironically, this explains why the tactic usually sucks - you're vulnerable to attack while prepping to jump. (This matters because hyperspace is curved and so you can't aim at something unless you hit them before you reach lightspeed - therefore you have to be pretty close to try and kamikaze jump them.)
Crypto Man Battlefront isn't canon. And it still is a plothole
Random Nerd it’s canon in the expanded universe
pretty sure it was m8 at the time the game had a bunch of the voice actors from the original movies and everything. I agree though it's definitely a big plothole... just thought it was interesting is all.
For your first point, I think you vastly overestimate how much mass matters and underestimate what increasing speed does. Remember, KE only depends linearly on mass but quadratically on velocity, so doubling mass doubles destructive output but doubling speed quadruples it. That's not even taking relativity in to account, where you have a term 1/(speed stuff) that tends to infinity as you approach the speed of light, further increasing how much of a role speed plays. You even say yourself that most of the damage done was caused by the shrapnel. Does each fragment of shrapnel weigh as much as "absolutely the largest ship that the rebellion has ever had access to?" As much as one that's "considerably larger than most ships we've seen in Star Wars?" I highly doubt it. Sure the Raddus being big did help somewhat, but given that it absolutely tore through the main First Order ship like it was wet toilet paper, I am confident in saying a ship a hundredth the size (probably even smaller) would've sufficed.
And yes, I do think that one large ship travelling at speeds would take out a Death Star or something of the like, but let's pretend I didn't. What's to stop the rebellion from equipping thousands of warp drives to empty kamikaze ships? Each one would still do huge damage, essentially the same as the big ship given that speed matters way more than just mass, but now you'd have access to the route of victory.
You say that hyper drives are expensive, yet literally every X-Wing has one, not to mention the other classes of fighters. Instead, you should only make say 80% as many hyper drive equipped fighters (the 20% that gets cut was just fodder anyway) and stock up on the flagship annihilators.
What do you mean why would the Empire build any of these when they already have superior firepower? They built a Death Star when they already had superior firepower. WMDs were Palpatine's whole MO.
Yes, because that’s not how hyperspace works. In the five part marvel Han Solo series, it’s explained that when you hyperspace you go through a wormhole thing so that you don’t crash into stuff.
Skywalking Studioz That’s what I always thought. Hyperspace lanes are used so you don’t crash into plants while in hyperspace (if I remember correctly).
@@ringking1036 my take would be that in hyperspace you're out of realspace but we know gravity wells can yank a ship out of hyperspace so the hyperspace lanes would be more concerned with any gravity source big enough to pull you out of hyperspace.
A planet might be cause for a brown shorts moment in some quick maneuvering and deceleration but being yanked from hyperspace near a star,supernova or blackhole you're already cooked by the photosphere, hard radiation or so dangerously close to the event horizon that there's no escape.
But that’s proven otherwise in the main series movies and tv shows
@@garysprandel1817 Exactly, the hyperspace is an kind of another dimension in space (string theory confirmed in Star Wars :0), and with that, it makes sense why it goes doctor who with all those white and blue parts and then what Han said about making precise calculations to not fell into an planet or a supernova makes sense. What *doesn't* makes sense is all the new trilogy.
I literally have been posting this on every comment if you go up you’ll see me explaining this you can not collide during hyperspace travel
I would've preferred Akbar doing the suicide hyperspace ram than the Jurrassic Park chick.
Marshal Tenner Winter Agree, he should Allah Akbar them.
ah yes the character with a grand total of 5 lines in the films and a vaguely arabic sounding name have him do a suicide run thats totally going to go over well
You got that out of your system. Good for you.
Akbar would have told everyone what the plan was..........
Marshal Tenner Winter yea and he yells
ITS A TRAP!!!!!!!!!!!
You're ignoring that it can be used as a Hail Mary, a last ditch attempt, if you know you're done for. Also, if every ship could have done a hyper jump, why wouldn't you fire every ship but one at the enemy, if they are all dead?
If shrapnel from the Supremacy can be imparted with sufficient velocity from a hyperspeed collision then that opens another possibility since objects other than the one that has the hyperdrive can be accelerated by the object with the hyperdrive. If hyperdrives are expensive and can't be reused then any cost effective weapon would need to reuse them, a missile bus could be a cost effective option; the missile jettisons its payload while at hyperspeed at the target then zooms off to be recovered for subsequent use. We could go so far as to use a manned bomber for the same mission, pack the cargo bay of a ship with some kind of high density mass as a kinetic warhead then open the bay while you make the jump and kick the warheads clear with a payload assist rocket in to the path of the target.
Ignoring such possibility can lose war.
The debris from the collision destroying all the other ships also probably directly contradicts the Deathstar going unscathed from the debris of Alderaan's destruction hitting it.
Freighters, Transports, Finn & Rey's ship, X-Wings, and TIE fighters, have hyperspace engines.
Hyperspace engines are too common to be as expensive as this theory proposes.
Besides, it's canon that Hyperspace engines have built in protections against this occurring. And basic writing says if you are going to change the rules, you need to hint that you are going to change the rules. This was poorly written and establishes (like many other parts of this terrible movie) that *anything* is possible at any time. There are no limits on what the writers can do. They can pull something out of their ass at any time. It's called Deus Ex Machina. It was bad writing when the Greek civilization was young.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina
My only real problem with this scene is that it wasn't akhbar doing the ramming...
cos of purple feminist virus spreading, no ugly alien allowed in SW anymore
and shout allahuakhbar while doing it
Matthew Mcchesney Are you really saying General Ackbar being practical is bad?! 😂 You’re worse than the idiots still saying The Last Jedi was good lol
That would've made no sense at all from a storytelling perspective.
“ALLAH AKHBAR!!!”
Sorry I couldn’t resist lol
Naw that breaks the lore.
Now that theve done it, it just begs the question why not do it all the time.. in fact why bother with destroyers or death stars at all even.
BadOps504 Because Disney has no problems erasing, breaking, or changing lore to try and sell
BadOps504 this isn't the first time light speed has been used as a last ditch effort to destroy an imperial ship. In the 2005 Star Wars Battlefront there was a space battle where you had to destroy a rebel ship before it made the jump to hyperspace through a Star Destroyer
+BadOps504 The Japanese tried Kamikaze attacks, and they justified it using this exact same logic. One plane is far cheaper then an aircraft carrier or battleship, so just ram a few planes into your enemies ships and you've traded a few cheap planes for a few VERY expensive and difficult to build ships. On paper it sounds good, and you'd think you'd come out ahead by doing this. But it did not work out for the Japanese, and I suspect it would not have worked out for the rebellion for the same reasons.
David Stagg Except Point defense systems cant target objects in hyperspace.
Andrew Cabral Battlefront is not canon.
I think you forget one thing… a Death Star has inside a reactor powerful and unstable enough to make it explode literally with a couple of torpedoes (twice). So a simple Cruiser rammed around the center mass of the Death Star has 100% of the chance (between its mass and shrapnels) to destroy a Death Star. And if you think that it would be expensive please run a calculation of how much it costed to the rebellion to take down Death Star 2 (both in people and ships)… a cruiser with a skeleton crew (maybe only composed of droids), would be a really cheap price to pay. Damn, if we consider that an asteroid made the dinosaurs extinct and we calculate the kinetic energy of a ship in hyperspace, it is guaranteed to knock down a planet too, even if doesn’t destroy it. The ability to take down any planet (including for example Coruscant) is a nightmare not only in the fight against the rebellion, every criminal and terrorist group large enough could bully any galactic superpower.
So yes, the answer is that this solution breaks the canon making everything before stupid or irrelevant and was never proposed before for this exact reason. Obviously Disney was stupid enough to approve it.
I love how people have to try to come up with excuses for bad writing.
Rian Johnson hasn't even to do a consistent movie, people (fanboys, as I was before) will (try to ) explain it later. If it isn't shit writing, I don't know what is.
The damage done to the genre by RJ has yet to fully play out. TLJ cured me of being a fan. I no longer feel any need to buy or watch anything Disney Wars. I've even started to no bother with MCU and other Disney universes. They touch something and it turns to garbage.
Yes, being a fan now seems to require blindness and bad faith...
It really does. It's a shame it got to this.
We were fools to bully Lucas enough to sell his beloved franchise to Disney.
We paid the price for our lack of vision!
hate to be this guy but it would still be a plot hole, the problem is that this scene not about it cost of hyperdrives or wasteful tactics because you just answered you own question. the deathstar. if we think back to A new hope or Return of the Jedi, this tactic would of made a lot more sense. send on ship to ram the thing then *BAM!* either its destroyed or servery damaged and the rest of the fleet could mop it up.
also there is the fact that from what we seen, even if it was a stroke of luck or a one in a million shot we saw a ship, although a large ship take out a even larger ship AND it fleet. It makes no logical sense that this tactic hasn't been used or tested given who old the star wars time line is. not to mention the lore breaking it does about its own laws on FTL, sure the ship goes to lightspeed before going into hyperspace but the process in instantaneous lore wise.
if you find anything big enough to destroy a death star, shut me up, but to make more than a tiny dent into that thing, you need something almost half of its size.
No, just need it to go do it right. First deathstar probably harder to destroy since it was complete but if even a peace of Hyper shrapnel got into the core than it be destroyed, not the best tactic and very likely to miss but could work, fighters would have better chances with torpedoes I'll give you that.
the second on the other hand would be very possible, it was incomplete at the time with large parts of it missing, depending on the crafts size it could the equivalent of armor piecing bullet or a armor piecing shotgun shell since there was less to get through to the core.
hell this tactic could of been used in the force awakens at Star killer, one X-wing activates its hyperdrive while aimed at the cooling station since it was a bigger target that a small vent, then the Star killer would of been destroyed without losing a squad.
No, just need it to go do it right. First deathstar probably harder to destroy since it was complete but if even a peace of Hyper shrapnel got into the core than it be destroyed, not the best tactic and very likely to miss but could work, fighters would have better chances with torpedoes I'll give you that.
the second on the other hand would be very possible, it was incomplete at the time with large parts of it missing, depending on the crafts size it could the equivalent of armor piecing bullet or a armor piecing shotgun shell since there was less to get through to the core.
hell this tactic could of been used in the force awakens at Star killer, one X-wing activates its hyperdrive while aimed at the cooling station since it was a bigger target that a small vent, then the Star killer would of been destroyed without losing a squad.
the dent will probably be surface level, if not entirely absorbed by shields, and even if not, however unlikely, it would take a gigantic amount of luck to get right. I'll just stay with my exaust ports if I may.
Nope, a rock the size of a beach ball travelling at light speed would pass straight through the death star, properly aimed it would take out the core with ease.
At 670,000,000 miles per hour, just about any object traveling at the speed of light with any measurable mass would cause total devastation to whatever it impacts.
So a point of lore that no one has brought up is a weapon from the Dark Empire era called the Hyperspace cannon, it is a gun that shoots a hyperspace capable missile through hyperspace to hit targets across the galaxy.
The Galaxy Gun's bullets only traveled through hyperspace, they dropped out to hit their targets. It was their payload which destroyed the planet. One bullet almost killed Han and Leia, but it failed to go off. It ended up unexploded and lodged in a ship's hull. Had it been traveling at lightspeed, it would have destroyed everything when it hit that ship. However there is an obscure bit of lore that does still support the Holdo Maneuver. Look up the "Destruction Pammant."
Ah yes, the super expensive, absolutely indispensable hyperdrive engine. So expensive and hard for the rebellion to acquire that they are installed on every single X-wing and Y-wing fighter. Of which they had a dozen or so. Yeah, great explanation there. Really makes sense with no gigantic holes in the logic anywhere.
Not only that but lets not forget interdictor ships. Which should of logically also been created much sooner to counter this. Like in legends where the tech is 4000 years old. rather then in current canon. Which then should be part of every single fleet, to stop this very thing from happening.
You mean the stolen ships they have?
the resistance didn't steal their fighters they were bought/gifted to them by the incom corporation since the empire/first order didn't want them. Possibly because if you run a star destroyer that's basically a cruiser/carrier hybrid you don't need fighters with hyperdrives since you have mass deployment launch bays anyways.
Now since hyperdrives are supposedly expensive why is it that aside from star destroyer based fighters EVERY SHIP IN STAR WARS has one?
Plotholes. Dozens of them.
X-wing is one of the most expensive fighters ever produced, and was considered the height of starfighter technological achievement when it was designed. the rebellion getting those fighters is likely the only thing that allowed the rebellion to achieve the things it did. the TIE fighter on the other hand was the opposite tactic, produce it cheaply and build tons of them. The X-wing was larger, faster, more agile, had more protection, carried more firepower, etc.... it was superior to everything else out there at the time, in nearly every conceivable way, except one: cost.
Here is some basic logic for you:
1 40 mile diameter rock travelling about 44,000 MPH + 1 Planet = 1 Mass extinction event.
1 40 mile diameter rock travelling about 90% of light speed + 1 Planet = 0 Planet
Death Star? Who needs a sodding Death Star? Just outfit some big space rocks with class 20 hyperdrives and auto pilots. Cheaper than two Death Stars, that's for damn sure. Hell, you could use that tactic against the Death Star itself, 1 of those Hyper Space rocks and the Death Star is at the very least inoperable, especially if you hit the Super Weapon Dish.
Also:
"Hyper drives are expensive and high maintenance, that's why Tie's don't have them. So do you really think the Rebels are going to make Hyperspace Missiles?" No, but they sure as fuck have enough resources to strap Hyper Drives to all of their fighters and bombers...That then go on suicide missions...Rather than, you know, outfitting a few crappy Freighters to carry the fighters/bombers into battle, only to then Jump back out immediately to maybe not get destroyed? Since Hyper Drives are so expensive and all...?
"What about the Republic? Or the Empire? They already have superior firepower! Why would they bother with Hyper Ramming?" The CIS, forgot about them? How they Jumped a whole invasion fleet right to Coruscant through that hidden Hyper Space route? What exactly was stopping them(Besides Sidious) from stripping a few dozen Munificent's to bare bones and having a skeleton crew of cheap B1's hyper ram into Coruscant? They couldn't be stopped from Jumping, and if they did Jump the whole Planet is a city so no matter where they hit, million or even billions are now dead, per ship. That's the end of the war right there.
Can you dock millions of tie fighters, armies, transport craft, etc. to a rock you're going to throw away? I doubt it.
You'd need them to jump right next to the death star to start their jump. They can't hit it if they're already in hyperspace.
Intimidation and reusable resources.
The problem with that logic is that hyperspace travel is not the same as impulse travel. The object isn't necessarily "moving" at all, the hyperdrive is warping the space around it. The destructive force of the hyperdrive would be in how much the hyperdrive can tear the target apart before it is destroyed. It might be that a starfighter's warp drive isn't even strong enough to penetrate the solid surface of a target.
The reason Sidious didn't HS ram Coruscant is because he wanted that to be his new seat of power. A ship travelling at or very near the speed of light has an insane amount of energy even a penny accelerated to those speeds would have drastic consequences for anything in its path.
1. Ok, so you are saying that throwing a hyperspace missile into the deathstar will do nothing, and give the example of how the Radis only simply disabled the Supremacy, so due to scales of size, this won't be effective. However, why not throw a hyperspace missile at the Death Star's super beam dish? The holes where beams come from seem like prime targets for something like this, and the amount of damage that can be caused to such delicate machinery must be immense.
2. You say that doing hyperspace kamikaze attacks to cruisers is a waste of starfighters and pilots because they are better alive than dead, and improve tactics are acceptable. I disagree, using common sense, you are guaranteed to lose many, many, starfighters to take down a cruiser, so sacrificing 1 to destroy a cruiser seems very efficient. Before you talk about scale these proportions seem plausible, and again, if it doesn't utterly destroy the cruiser, it will at least be disabled.
3. Hyperdrives aren't THAT expensive, x wings or y wings or even crappy separatist shuttles are hyperspace capable. They were expensive for the gang in episode one because they were stuck with very little money trying to buy an engine on a planet with very little supply of it available (thus high prices, economics 101). If lets say 20 fighters will bight the dust from one attack on a cruiser, 3/4 hyperkazi on a cruiser (assuming thats what it takes to destroy one) seems very efficient.
Here is a plausible example, Republic Venators are ~50% smaller than an ISD (less volume to go through), and Separatist shuttles, like the one that carried Grievous to Utapau, (they are also super cheap by the look of them, and a bit bigger than an x wing) can probably do a lot of damage with a hyperkazi. Another realization I had just now is that the pilots of these shuttles were droids, very cheap, expendable droids. Even if you think the rebels couldn't afford to hyperkazi into cruisers, the CIS could have easily used this tactic against the Republic (now just remembered you didn't even talk about the Separatists in the video). You say this type of attack is rare, however the Separatists disposition would have made them do these types of attacks all the time!
By going by your logic with the collateral damage argument, Palpatine's plan with the Clone Wars was to get the people mad about war and blame the Jedi for it, while elevating his own power at their expense. Why not in some Clone War space battle order an admiral to launch a Republic cruiser into hyperspace at a Separatist frigate, and direct the shrapnel at the planet's surface to get the people to really hate the war? Why not do something like that at Courascant? He could even ask Count Dooku to do it on a Republic fleet as well!
As for the things I do agree with in the video, the idea of a cloud of hyperspace debree seems intriguing, and actually makes sense, and your analysis of the Hammerhead corvet's attack is also sound. I also agree the Republic and Empire strategically wouldn't have wanted to do something like this, however, politically, they could create something interesting...
However, even if you find problems with my arguments, there have been many space battles in Star Wars, from the movies to the TV shows, and only now in TLJ do we see that this maneuver is feasible. I can think of many moments from the Battle of Courascant, to the Battle of Endor, to even some space battles from TCW where hyperkazi can happen.
And on top of that, a hyperspace ram against the death star doesn't need to be so big that it'd destroy it like Snoke's ship. It only has to be strong enough to hit the core, and then the core blowing up takes care of the rest.
I mean the whole reason the Imperial Japanese resorted to kamikaze tactics was that the quality of their pilots was so low and the Americans so high that it was literally more efficient to attempt to suicide planes into ships than attempt to attack them conventionally. Why wouldn't the Rebellion come to a similar conclusion?
They were a last resort, but Japanese high command realized that kamikaze attacks were more likely to inflict damage on the US Navy than conventional bombing and torpedo attacks. Hence pilots were typically volunteers who thought they could do more against their enemy by a deliberate suicide attack rather than attempt a bombing run. With the force equalizer of hyperspace ramming, the question still remains why this wouldn't be a valid tactic in earlier instances.
And to be honest, I no longer care if someone does come up with an answer. The problem remains that TLJ came out without the answer. That's bad screenwriting. I'm shouldn't have to watch Rebels, or play Battlefront, or read any of the new books to find the answer. If a glaring plothole like this is in a movie, that's the fault of the movie.
Hilbert that's flawed logic
if you only have 50 people left, and they'll all die trying to kill an enemy ship, why wouldn't you send 4-5 of them to kill an enemy ship and then still have 45 people left?
Also Japan inflicted more damage with Kamakazi attacks then they did with conventional torpedo/bomber attacks over the course of the entire war
one thing it seems most people forget about hyperspeed travel is that it needs certain preparations. several times before we saw situations where the characters cant just teleport exactly where they want and from wherever they want because the conditions arent ideal.
not only it takes time to charge but you also need to accelerate to very high speeds, over a certain distance, before going into hyperspace.
what was shown in the last jedi was that the first order was able to detect immediately that the hyperspace drive was activated and had ample time to react while it charged, instead being blinded by confusion. they couldve very well shot the vessel before it jumped, as we've seen before when people try to flee using hyperspeed.
in the same vein, before entering hyperspace the ship needs to accelerate through normal space, so it needs sort of a 'runway' to accelerate/decelerate safely before/after jumping, reason why ships dont just hyperjump past shields and into planet's atmospheres.
what happened there was just the exact situation of 1) the vessel being close enough to accelerate into other vessels (they were in the runway) before the jump then hitting them at a fraction of the speed of light, 2) while having the benefit of the doubt from the target that underestimated them and let them charge, instead of immediately interrupting it by firing on them or sending smaller vessels to take it down, 3) coupled with the fact they had no choice but to waste such a big ship, bigger than a star destroyer, only reason it actually amounted to significant damage and lastly 4) without cannons or smaller vessels of any kind to defend themselves, making this their only option.
like, how often do you happen to be in this exact situation?
its not a cheat OP strat, its a opportunistic manouver that would never work in any reasonable scenario but happened to be the only option there.
I dont believe all of this was tought out for the movie but it still makes perfect sense within canon for how these things work. people just are willing to be dumb in order to have excuses to criticize shit they dislike