Pre-Turns / Counter-Directional Steering || MTB Cornering: Practice Like a Pro #9
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- Опубліковано 7 лис 2020
- This week is all about the Pre-Turn! This cornering magic allows you to complete the majority of your turn early, giving you better speed and line choice as you exit the turn. It can change a decreasing-radius turn into an increasing radius so you don't get pushed to the outside. It also gives you more control in avoiding obstacles or loose terrain, or hitting wet roots at a more desirable angle. Especially if you are riding a trail blind and don't have great visibility of the exit of the turn, this can help you be prepared.
Key Takeaways:
1. Enter on the inside of the turn. Your line through the dirt should look make a question mark shape
2. Set your edge hard, and commit your bike and body for a powerful pre-turn
3. The turns should feel linked. Placement varies based on speed; pre-turn sooner if you're moving faster
Get easy access to Simon's most famous teaching points as you follow Fluidride’s @linnearooke through her learning progression, and gain insights for your own riding.
Want to learn more? See the full video (26:04) on our online school at fluidrideonline.com/
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Fluidride is a mountain bike school based in Seattle, Washington, USA, offering a wide variety of mountain bike educational opportunities and experiences, including an online school, remote coaching, in-person classes, and international mtb tours.
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ABOUT SIMON LAWTON
Following his own Pro Downhill mountain bike racing career, Simon Lawton (Owner and Founder) has spent the last 25 years analyzing the top riders in the world to understand the tiniest details that contribute to their greatest successes, and also any weaknesses that are holding them back. With an exceptional understanding of kinesiology, Simon has developed his own teaching curriculum that explains the incredible relationship between human and machine. He has trained top pro mountain bike racers across the world, and his foundational techniques apply equally to beginner riders. His on-bike drills allow you to break down complex skills on the bike and develop correct techniques.
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ABOUT LINNEA ROOKE
Linnea has been racing locally in the pro category, but until this year she had almost no formal training and was held back by major gaps in her technique. While she was able to carry speed well on straight downhills and high-bermed turns, she lacked foundational cornering skills and was timid in the air. In Feb 2020, she met up with Fluidride to help with a filming trip in Baja, and was fascinated by Simon's teaching methods. Wanting to be part of this mission, she left her career in healthcare in July 2020 to officially join the Fluidride team as COO. We started filming this series to document her journey of cleaning up bad habits, adding new skills to her toolkit, and chasing her dream of riding with style.
Linnea rides for Evil Bikes: www.evil-bikes.com/ - Спорт
these are some of the very best instructional mtb vids on YT, and they keep getting better...
"oh it actually works!" haha... crazy how proper instruction helps us become better riders.
I didn't knew that cornering is so complex. I now got a glimpse into how those that are looking cool when cornering are actually doing it. Thx!
Felt the drift for the first time today! These vids are the perfect mix of understanding and how to practice! Brilliant 👏
This channel has the best instructional videos on net.
Simon is the best instructor articulating the fundamentals! 🚴🏾♂️💨
Sorry for the late reply, and thanks for taking the time to say this! It really means a lot to the whole team here. We're so happy to share Simon's knowledge with passionate riders
Some of the best instructional videos on ANY topic that I've ever seen on UA-cam. Amazing thank you!
Thanks Kurt! Your kinds words mean a lot to us. Stay tuned for more! -Simon
Sweet...learning every day!!!
You guys are the best I am learning so much on your videos. Thank you so much.
great video, keep them coming. Thanks
Amazing vid!
That is GREAT advise..thank you... if I fall I stiffen up after and its the worse thing...very helpful to hear this advice for after future spills !
Ahhh little tips 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏😛😛speed just got raised 👌
5:23... Oooh! I think that's something new and kind of important. So rather than starting the turn on the outside at the "turn in point" when you're bolt upright, you start it with a pre-turn from the opposite side of the trail and by the time you get to the "turn in point" you're already at full lean. I think... Anyway, another great video. Lots to think about...
Yes exactly! The pre-turn allows you commit to your actual turn harder and sooner. Give it a try! We'll be re-visiting this concept when we practice switchbacks too
I applied just CDS on my latest ride + front foot back foot weight shifting chupa kaabra .. I was able to slice a second .. now I am curious to see that combo + pumping + pedalling .. nice work this channel does
Question mark shape. That is easy to remember, tks.
thanks.
Great content. Its the exact cornering skill I've been working on recently.
That's awesome 🤘 Nice job practicing too!
Bought myself a set of cones after watching your videos. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Great video
Thanks for watching!
very good video the graphics made the difference.
Thanks for watching, Ray!
Thanks you!!!! For encapsulating the Hayabusa perfectly! If you want to understand why this model is still so popular over 20 years later? Just listen to this guy. Excellent job 💪🏻
Even I was clenching at the end of that straight!! Thought you were on the grass for sure 😱😂💪🏻
My Kawasaki was the same way. Had to counter-steer hard to get it initiated in a turn and it would stand up under hard acceleration and fall down under deceleration. Was not the best balanced bike for cornering for sure. My Honda was totally neutral and a dream to corner. Your Busa is a rocket ship!
words of wisdom here!! can't wait to try this out! thanks for the channel guys
Let us know how it goes!
Gréât job
Thank for watching, Benoit!
Interesting point at @1:26 about how the bike might stand up if the foot timing isn't correct.
Fuvkin a just learning some serious stuff u great instructor 🙏🙏🙏🙏👍👍
So basically, we're moving the apex of the turn to a point earlier in the turns arc. Interesting. I don't know if I've ever (consciously) done this before. I mean, I've pivoted the rear of the bike around to get a better angle at a corner, but nothing like this. I'm gonna give it a shot. Thanks, great content by the way!!
Thanks for watching and for this great feedback. Make sure you set your edge hard in the pre-turn, so that you're setting your edge and committing your hips. Let us know how it goes 🤘
I'm glad I found this channel. I've tracked motorcycles and cars, so hitting the apex is key to coming out of a turn with speed. I've done this on setting up slow tight turns on my MTB but I don't think I've ever tried it on a fast turn, and especially with this footwork. Did I say I'm glad I found this channel?
a better frame rate will help a lot with this video.
That pre-turn looks very useful, I think I'm gonna have to do some drills on this :D
Also, is Linnea using the Chromag Dagga pedals? If so they're absolutely amazingly solid and grippy! haha
Great video and reminder since I’ve done a few of Simons classes. But how the heck did you get such an empty day at Duthie? Never seen it like that.
Seems like one key ingredient is that the bike needs to lean independent of the rider. She was leaning with the bike. He was leaning only the bike.
Lean bike in > keep torso perpendicular to the ground > turn knees and hips in > adjust weight fore-and-aft to manage understeer/oversteer.
I'm thinking this concept of "pre-turning" is an adaptation of "counter steering" steering briefly in the opposite direction to cause the lean of the bike opposite to the direction of the handlebars. As the start position of the intended turn can be achieved without any deliberate pre-turning not withstanding obstacles (basic geometry). Counter steering is difficult and unnatural so disguising it in a brief turn in the opposite direction slows it down and simplifies it and provides the subtle weight transfers and tire angulation needed for traction with the same result. If anyone has a better description/analysis of the physics involved in pre-turning, please comment.
Looks like her arm position is really keeping her from getting to the next step. While her feet position really improved and helped dig the edge of the tire into the corner - using arms to keep pushing would give her that much more grip.
Perhaps she could try more pressure, but her position is absolutely ideal in these videos...raising the outside elbow as she moves through her footwork. We'll give your suggestion a try! Always looking to improve grip in those treacherous conditions (VERY slippery there). Thanks for checking in. -Simon
Does a slacker hta affect your body positioning in corners? When I demo a bike where the front wheel is further out, I feel like I need to be a lot more over the front to keep traction. With everything getting longer and slacker, it's a bit awkward trying to get my technique right so I don't wash out.
Yes the slacker head tubes (and shorter, more modern stems) allow you to get a lot further forward. The key here is to weight the front wheel (and engage the front suspension) by driving your knees forward over your toes. If your suspension is balanced, then having your weight evenly over the bottom bracket will allow you to engage your front suspension (without pushing down into your handlebars with your upper body).
Great video man! So how do we know which corners benefit from the use of the pre turn??
These are great for lots of different turns: decreasing-radius turns, switchbacks (to create an offset wheel path), when there's loose terrain on the outside of the turn (often at the exit), and if there are obstacles (such as wet roots or rocks) that you want to avoid or hit at a specific angle. The pre-turn gives you more line choice as you exit the turn. Especially if you are riding a trail blind and don't have great visibility of the exit of the turn, this can help you be prepared.
@@Fluidride so really are there any turns where you would not pre-turn?
@@Fluidride awesome info man thanks!
You're slipping, you're supposed to be slipping.
Just don't crash. If you do, do it with style.
Interseting technique, what kind of turn would you apply it in?
These are great for lots of different turns: decreasing-radius turns, switchbacks (to create an offset wheel path), when there's loose terrain on the outside of the turn (often at the exit), and if there are obstacles (such as wet roots or rocks) that you want to avoid or hit at a specific angle. The pre-turn gives you more line choice as you exit the turn. Especially if you are riding a trail blind and don't have great visibility of the exit of the turn, this can help you be prepared.
Great video! Not sure if I'd label myself a 'good beginner' or a 'mediocre intermediate', but I'm finding it more challenging to find instructional videos on UA-cam for where I'm at. One specific question on foot positioning: I've been trying to move from dropping outside foot to having level pedals when entering corners, and am not sure if there's a convention on having the inside or outside foot forward. In this video it looked like inside foot forward, which feels more comfortable to me if I am shifting my hips. But when I go through a succession of turns it feels awkward to try and switch foot position between the turns. Any tips appreciated!
So sorry for the late response! We're not so good at keeping up with this. That's a really good question. As the turns get tighter together, your feet simply can't keep up if you are trying to switch which foot is forward. Keep the same foot forward, but practice dipping the outside foot. In some turns, that will be the front foot that dips, and in other turns, it'll be the back foot. For most people, the back foot feels easier and more natural, so it takes practice to get both turns feeling good. In a series of linked turns, feet will essentially teeter-totter but not make a full rotation. We talk about this a bit in a newer video we put out if you're interested: ua-cam.com/video/D3DV_V0TF2U/v-deo.html
@@Fluidride - Thanks!
Best Videos! Are you riding 29ers?
Simon is on a 29er and mine is 27.5 🤘 -Linnea
These videos are great, really helped my riding, thank you! Are there any turns where you would not benefit from a pre-turn?
Pre-turns are usually best for "special cases" such as decreasing radius turns, turns that lose support at the end, turns with junk in the exit that you're trying to avoid, and often when you're riding trails blind and don't really know what to expect. That being said, turns that are increasing radius or have a consistent radius and a nice berm often won't need them - better to just go straight into pressing into the berm and accelerating through it!
Do this on driving car... weight shift...
When she slipped, in the video she seems to have lost her front grip. To get more grip what she had to do? My guesstimation is correct?
distribute more weight forward by going chest closer to the bars i guess?
Hi 👋
Hi, I never heard the reason why this is better till reading comments here (use only for decreasing radius turns or potential obstacles at the end). Then more answers in comments seems to suggest that this helps because you are scrubbing off speed w a "pre turn". If so then how is making a two apex turn any faster than a late apex turn?
Exit speed is one thing it can help, but there are a lot of reasons it could be helpful. On a clean road it might not make any difference, but when trying to ride the best conditions in the corner, get the most optimal radius or take advantage of the best cambered (perhaps supported) section of a turn, it can pay dividends. We teach this technique not just on UA-cam but also to some of the worlds fastest riders and I'm sure they would all agree that in the right situation a pre-turn can help control in a turn as well as exit speed. It's not for every turn, but if you watch videos of the worlds fastest riders, you will see it used regularly. Hope this helps! -Simon
pre-turn is similar to counter steering?
Yes it is! By adding the initial turn, we can set the edge harder and also start our turn sooner
What is the function of the outside knee in your system?
Lots of pro riders push the inside knee out and also the outside knee into the bike frame for better cornering .
I see that you guys do pretty much the same but you don’t talk about it.
Can you explain farther please?
Thanks
You might end up at an extreme where the outside knee contacts the frame but since the movement is dynamic, contact with the frame is not a goal and only an outcome sometimes. This will happen more on off-camber turns where the movement is that much more extreme. We talk a lot about turning the whole front side body with our system, so the inside knee points to the inside exit of the turn along with the outside hip and line of vision. There is SO much to cornering that it's difficult to get it across in one video. I hope this helps! -Simon
@@Fluidride are you ever going to be in the Los Angeles area ?
I would like to take a private class with you.
how does one do a "pre-turn" or Scandanavian flick when the trail is not a dirt parking lot? you're easily 10' to the inside to start when doing the second turns. Can you show how to do this using the same line as the first turns? Can you narrow the "trail" so it mimics a real pice of single track?
Yes that's definitely the next step - we'll be taking this technique to single track and applying it to a few different switchbacks, then hitting some even tighter turns and terrain. That's coming in a couple weeks - hope it helps!
is this pre-collarbone?
Yes it was! The crash was the next day we filmed (about a week after this episode)